Aren't abstract entities a cosmic necessity? The phoenix can't be killed, and if Franklin will eventually turn into one both of them, both cannot be killed. Except Abarax being killed/willed out of existence by the ultimate nullfier. Just straight up power feats wise though at this stage i would say Phoenix.
@Hyper_God: are you sure?? let's review.first and foremost
Jus because the power of the phoenix is this supreme multiversal power, does not mean that the wielder are granted the full might of the Phoenix's glory. The application of the phoenix's power by the users is limited by many different things including: the strength of the character, experience, skill, WILLPOWER, and the connection of the force itself. So the high highs and the low lows shown by the phoenix is based on the AVATAR alone and not the power itself, but the Power of the Phoenix in its entirety is multiversal and on a higher-end scale
-being a multiversal force
- the ambient energies that universes/multiverses are composed of (big bang)
-the power to maintain the devestating multiversal powers of the m'kraan crystal. (jean grey)
-the power to manipulate entire universes/erase timelines/restructure or heal realities. (jean grey)
-The power that connected all realities of the multiverse to Otherworld. (necrom
-The power to project a tower across the multiverse, compressing all realities of the multiverse into
a singularity. (necrom)
- tap into the elemental forces of the universe (rachel grey)
-Healing Eternity/The Universe (girauld)
-The Power to destroy the universe and restart creation in the creation of men, said by Death and Eternity, who feared the Phoenix (stranger w/phoenix)
-The Power to merge entire realities (racheal)
-Vulcan with the phoenix force destroyed 7 star systems, 1/3 of the Annihilation wave, killed Annihilus, and was consuming all of reality (which was happening in the m'kraan crystal, the center and nexus of all realities including 616, making these feats canon).
Like I said, the Phoenix is simply ABOVE Franklin, who was only stated to be potentially be Celestrial Level, which the phoenix outclasses.
@Hyper_God: are you sure?? let's review.first and foremost
Jus because the power of the phoenix is this supreme multiversal power, does not mean that the wielder are granted the full might of the Phoenix's glory. The application of the phoenix's power by the users is limited by many different things including: the strength of the character, experience, skill, WILLPOWER, and the connection of the force itself. So the high highs and the low lows shown by the phoenix is based on the AVATAR alone and not the power itself, but the Power of the Phoenix in its entirety is multiversal and on a higher-end scale
I have already showed you that Franklin has displayed a trans-universal scale of power on one instance , and a multiversal scale of power on another instance . And what makes you think that Hope has the capability to attain a multiversal scale of power from the Phoenix ?
Btw , Skyfathers and Cube Beings have displayed a multiversal scale of power as well , so that entire argument from you is redundant .
being a multiversal force
Already addressed .
the ambient energies that universes/multiverses are composed of (big bang)
Never shown on-panel . Merely vague and ambiguous statements from second-hand sources . However , I'll let you have this one .
the power to maintain the devestating multiversal powers of the m'kraan crystal. (jean grey)
She wasn't able to do that on her own . She needed the help of her fellow X-Men .
The power that connected all realities of the multiverse to Otherworld. (necrom
Necrom never displayed such a feat . He merely claimed that . Plus , Meggan has been able to tap into the power of the Otherworld as well . However , I'll let you have this one as well .
the power to manipulate entire universes/erase timelines/restructure or heal realities. (jean grey)
Jean only did that to one single reality aka 15104 .
The power to project a tower across the multiverse, compressing all realities of the multiverse into
a singularity. (necrom)
Again , Necrom never actually showed such a feat . That was mere hyperbole on his part .
tap into the elemental forces of the universe (rachel grey)
Meggan can do that as well . I don't see how this gives Hope any advantage over Franklin . Not to mention that she can even do this sort of stuff with the PF , is mere conjecture on your part .
Healing Eternity/The Universe (girauld)
Franklin resurrected Galactus right from the heart of Eternity .
The Power to destroy the universe and restart creation in the creation of men, said by Death and Eternity, who feared the Phoenix (stranger w/phoenix)
That wasn't the Phoenix's power , it was mankind's potential and desire to grow . Stranger intended to use Mystique , Gambit and Toad for that purpose . Not the PF . Eternity confirmed that the Abstracts actually encourage the process . Nowhere was it shown that Eternity and Death fear the Phoenix .
Vulcan with the phoenix force destroyed 7 star systems, 1/3 of the Annihilation wave, killed Annihilus, and was consuming all of reality (which was happening in the m'kraan crystal, the center and nexus of all realities including 616, making these feats canon).
A much weaker version of Franklin Richards(Psi-Lord) actually destroyed reality . The Annihilation Wave is a joke btw , seeing as how Galactus decimated most of it , in a weakened state .
The Power to merge entire realities (racheal)
When did this happen ? Which issue number ?
Like I said, the Phoenix is simply ABOVE Franklin, who was only stated to be potentially be Celestrial Level, which the phoenix outclasses
Individual Celestials have a power level , several orders of magnitude above that of Cube Beings . Two Incomplete Cube Beings warped reality on a trans-multiversal scale , as mere side-effects of their battle . An incomplete Cube Being(Beyonder) gave Rachel complete access to the full extent of the PF's power , using his own abilities . Go figure .
Aren't abstract entities a cosmic necessity? The phoenix can't be killed, and if Franklin will eventually turn into one both of them, both cannot be killed. Except Abarax being killed/willed out of existence by the ultimate nullfier. Just straight up power feats wise though at this stage i would say Phoenix.
Phoenix hasn't done anything power or feat wise , which puts her above Franklin .
I only need an issue number at best . Also only for this :
The Power to merge entire realities (racheal)
All the other feats you mentioned , I have the relevant comic book issues to refer to . I originally used to think that the Phoenix was an LT level entity , however reading all the relevant info provided by a guy called MrMaster(he's regarded an expert on those boards in regards to the Cosmic Genre) on KMC , I have changed my position .
I am not an expert on cosmics, obviously, but even Thor was able to do some limited damage to the Phoenix. Not a significant amount, but adult Franklin should be far beyond Thor. Also not sure why one would think Franklin isn't at the very least Celestial level.
Adult Franklin Richards>Hope Summers Phoenix Force>Adult Franklin Richards
Not true at all, the Force makes it apparent and a neccessity to be with Jean Grey at all times. The strongest version of the Phenix is White Phoenix of the crown. Even then her strongest feat was just fixing a universe and chopping out of the time stream. Frank Lin Richards also has universal feats and has done stuff like that with the Revision Wave
I am not an expert on cosmics, obviously, but even Thor was able to do some limited damage to the Phoenix. Not a significant amount, but adult Franklin should be far beyond Thor. Also not sure why one would think Franklin isn't at the very least Celestial level.
Thor clipped its wings . Tony's personal tech split it into 5 parts . All of this is from the the recent AVX event.
Xorn's emp killed Jean , and it shattered the Force itself into a billion billion pieces . The Official Marvel Universe Handbook 2005 ,
Phoenix Force Ignores any Attack by Thor. Nowhere in there does it show Phoenix Force was damage at all. It merely goes on its merry way.
Also shown is Phoenix Avatars One Shotting Firelord. Forcing Pre Retcon Beyonder doing something he does not want to do yet he is Beyond Galactus in Power. Ignoring Blasts from Silver Surfer. Green Phoenix Forces Galactus to Guilt Trip her into not killing him! Dark Phoenix Eats Stars for snacks and can destroy Solar Systems in her mere feeding.
Phoenix of the White Crown. She controls and changes whole Marvel Verses and Realities in the palm of her hands.
I think Hope has no feats as of yet but every Pass Avatar has shown to be Universe lvl Abstracts along with Galactus. Phoenix of the White Crown is higher.
Phoenix Force PWNs any version of Franklin. Wheres his Marvel Verse manipulating feats. The Little Pocket Universe are just that little Pocket Verses. Franklin brought Galactus to life again. So what Phoenix Trumps Galactus as well.
Also to note is the Phoenix Force is the maker of Marvel Universes. This is proven true in Ultimate Verse as a Piece of the Phoenix Force created the Ultimate Marvel Verse.
@CadenceV2: your own scan shows that the civilizations created by the Phoenix itself , managed to defeat her : "They amassed a great army--bringing together a hundred civilizations.The war with the Phoenix lasted a thousand years and cost them many lives ." "But in the end--she was defeated."
Phoenix Force Ignores any Attack by Thor. Nowhere in there does it show Phoenix Force was damage at all. It merely goes on its merry way.
Also shown is Phoenix Avatars One Shotting Firelord. Forcing Pre Retcon Beyonder doing something he does not want to do yet he is Beyond Galactus in Power. Ignoring Blasts from Silver Surfer. Green Phoenix Forces Galactus to Guilt Trip her into not killing him! Dark Phoenix Eats Stars for snacks and can destroy Solar Systems in her mere feeding.
Phoenix of the White Crown. She controls and changes whole Marvel Verses and Realities in the palm of her hands. I think Hope has no feats as of yet but every Pass Avatar has shown to be Universe lvl Abstracts along with Galactus. Phoenix of the White Crown is higher. Phoenix Force PWNs any version of Franklin. Wheres his Marvel Verse manipulating feats. The Little Pocket Universe are just that little Pocket Verses. Franklin brought Galactus to life again. So what Phoenix Trumps Galactus as well.
What are you talking about? She never made Beyonder do anything he didnt want to do? He gave her props for being powerful but that's all even the Phoenix knows she cant stop Beyonder.
WPOTC also edited that time frame/Universe from the white hot room which is the epicenter of all verses. Beating Thor Galactus and Silver surfer doesnt mean crap when your the Phoenix. Actually Im wrong, if Phoenix fights Galactus NOW it would mean something because he has now been shown to be a universal buster and a Celestial killer. Something he wasn't before.
Franklin made his own universe as a kid from nothing and if you want to go tit-for-tat on the "Here Comes Tomorrow" feat we can but it will just come down to the fact that Phoenix needed to do it in the M'Kraan Crystal/White Hot Room and Franklin fixed the future in "Crazy Space God" storyline with the revision wave.
@CadenceV2: You also seem to forget that the Phoenix is no longer the current creator of the Universe. Remember there have been many new abstracts who filled the role of creator. The ones that come to mind currently are, IGV and Entropy, Legion, Thanos HOTU, and Sise-Neg. I think Nemesis also created 616 as well before.
@daak1212: Has Phoenix been Retcon? I wont say anymore actually that she is creator... I suppose that is true. She is Staed to be the Abstract that gives LIFE to any Marvel Verse as the Ultimate and Current Phoenix Scans show.
Not sure what Comic this comes from but seems Accurate. What I do know is that the Phoenix Force is Fractured into its Avatars. Thats why you have a Dark, Green, and White.
@Hyper_God: Hmmm I belive I said PIECE of the Phoenix. Not the Whole Phoenix Force. Also I belive Franklin was imprison in a Onslaught too at one time. Soooo Onslaught is now Universe threat?
@Hyper_God: Hmmm I belive I said PIECEof the Phoenix. Not the Whole Phoenix Force. Also I belive Franklin was imprison in a Onslaught too at one time. Soooo Onslaught is now Universe threat?
This portion of your post(to which my first reply was made) , doesn't mention a piece of the Phoenix anywhere :
Phoenix Force Ignores any Attack by Thor. Nowhere in there does it show Phoenix Force was damage at all. It merely goes on its merry way.
The next portion of your post which I replied to , doesn't mention apiece of the Phoenix either :
Where exactly do the portions of your posts which I have replied to , mention a piece/fragment of the Phoenix ?
Onslaught never utilized the full extent of Franklin's powers . And if you want to cherry-pick the Onslaught incident , then let me point out that Onslaught told Jean that the power he possessed was greater than the Phoenix Force's , a claim Jean never disputed . You can't have one without the other .
@daak1212: Has Phoenix been Retcon? I wont say anymore actually that she is creator... I suppose that is true. She is Staed to be the Abstract that gives LIFE to any Marvel Verse as the Ultimate and Current Phoenix Scans show.
Not sure what Comic this comes from but seems Accurate. What I do know is that the Phoenix Force is Fractured into its Avatars. Thats why you have a Dark, Green, and White.
@Hyper_God: Hmmm I belive I said PIECEof the Phoenix. Not the Whole Phoenix Force. Also I belive Franklin was imprison in a Onslaught too at one time. Soooo Onslaught is now Universe threat?
That has nothing to do with anything anymore. She was the creator of 616 but with the universe being destroyed countless times and rebuilt it's no longer "her universe" Even then life on Earth came from the Demiurge not really Phoenix. I think Demiurge is also the father of Atum/Demigorge also.
Oh yeah a couple new retcons came into my head just as I typed this. Reed Richards with the Ultimate Nullifier when he used it kill/destroy Abraxas and Chaos War where it was stated that Miko-Bashi was the universe untill Gaea brought life into the Universe casting out oblivion.
Phoenix Force Ignores any Attack by Thor. Nowhere in there does it show Phoenix Force was damage at all. It merely goes on its merry way.
Nope . That's a different encounter altogether . Thor clipped its wings . He caused it to flee :
Im Glad you post those. I only had the Second.
I remember now that the Vice President of Editing said "Odin created the Universe and all the heros in it, hes more powerful than the Phoenix Force" during a interview of AvX.
Soooo maybe a huge Retcon is in the making where Odin will be more powerful than Eternity.
@daak1212: BTW, the last box says "He tries to make Phoenix stop, but she will not." That Screams he was force beyond his will. You cant twist that.
Actually I can, when was this comic? This could be Pre Retcon or or could be Secret Wars retcon. I think this might be the Cosmic Cube Beyonder. If again you wanna go mark for mark, I have a scan where he compliments her but pretty much disregards her.
Phoenix Force Ignores any Attack by Thor. Nowhere in there does it show Phoenix Force was damage at all. It merely goes on its merry way.
Nope . That's a different encounter altogether . Thor clipped its wings . He caused it to flee :
Im Glad you post those. I only had the Second. I remember now that the Vice President of Editing said "Odin created the Universe and all the heros in it, hes more powerful than the Phoenix Force" during a interview of AvX. Soooo maybe a huge Retcon is in the making where Odin will be more powerful than Eternity.
That wasnt a ret-con, that was Tom Brovort being an idiot. His evidence was that "Because Odin is called the All-father he created all". He's an idiot and doesnt understand continuity
@daak1212: BTW, the last box says "He tries to make Phoenix stop, but she will not." That Screams he was force beyond his will. You cant twist that.
That's completely irrelevant , because the Beyonder was the one who gave her access to the the full extent of the powers of the Phoenix Force . Overloading an incomplete Cube Being , with the power input he himself provided to her , is apparently a great feat for her , according to you .
@daak1212: BTW, the last box says "He tries to make Phoenix stop, but she will not." That Screams he was force beyond his will. You cant twist that.
That's completely irrelevant , because the Beyonder was the one who gave her access to the the full extent of the powers of the Phoenix Force . Overloading an incomplete Cube Being , with the power input he himself provided to her , is apparently a great feat for her , according to you .
Okay, so this was Cube Beyonder not Classic Beyonder/Old School Beyonder
@daak1212: BTW, the last box says "He tries to make Phoenix stop, but she will not." That Screams he was force beyond his will. You cant twist that.
Actually I can, when was this comic? This could be Pre Retcon or or could be Secret Wars retcon. I think this might be the Cosmic Cube Beyonder. If again you wanna go mark for mark, I have a scan where he compliments her but pretty much disregards her.
You mean these...
Gallery
Beyonder still owns here but he was forced all the same when Phoenix went all out on him with what he wanted.
He also tells her if he left himself wide open she had the ability to kill him. More so than others ever had.
Phoenix Force Ignores any Attack by Thor. Nowhere in there does it show Phoenix Force was damage at all. It merely goes on its merry way.
Nope . That's a different encounter altogether . Thor clipped its wings . He caused it to flee :
Im Glad you post those. I only had the Second. I remember now that the Vice President of Editing said "Odin created the Universe and all the heros in it, hes more powerful than the Phoenix Force" during a interview of AvX. Soooo maybe a huge Retcon is in the making where Odin will be more powerful than Eternity.
Brevoort's opinion means jack-squat on the Battle Forums . He isn't writing any of these stories .He has a tendency to troll fanboys . He did the same thing to Sentry fanboys when they came whining to him on Formspring , after Sentry got killed by Thor .
Phoenix Force Ignores any Attack by Thor. Nowhere in there does it show Phoenix Force was damage at all. It merely goes on its merry way.
Nope . That's a different encounter altogether . Thor clipped its wings . He caused it to flee :
Im Glad you post those. I only had the Second. I remember now that the Vice President of Editing said "Odin created the Universe and all the heros in it, hes more powerful than the Phoenix Force" during a interview of AvX. Soooo maybe a huge Retcon is in the making where Odin will be more powerful than Eternity.
That wasnt a ret-con, that was Tom Brovort being an idiot. His evidence was that "Because Odin is called the All-father he created all". He's an idiot and doesnt understand continuity
He is in charge of what goes.... it sad but he can make that call.
@daak1212: BTW, the last box says "He tries to make Phoenix stop, but she will not." That Screams he was force beyond his will. You cant twist that.
Actually I can, when was this comic? This could be Pre Retcon or or could be Secret Wars retcon. I think this might be the Cosmic Cube Beyonder. If again you wanna go mark for mark, I have a scan where he compliments her but pretty much disregards her.
You mean these...
Gallery
Beyonder still owns here but he was forced all the same when Phoenix went all out on him with what he wanted.
No I have another scan but yeah along side what with Hyper God said and I said, he allowed the Phoenix to go full power and he was still cube beyonder.
@daak1212: BTW, the last box says "He tries to make Phoenix stop, but she will not." That Screams he was force beyond his will. You cant twist that.
That's completely irrelevant , because the Beyonder was the one who gave her access to the the full extent of the powers of the Phoenix Force . Overloading an incomplete Cube Being , with the power input he himself provided to her , is apparently a great feat for her , according to you .
Okay, so this was Cube Beyonder not Classic Beyonder/Old School Beyonder
The Beyonder itself was Pre-Retcon . However the feat itself is cannon , and is referred in the PF's official Marvel bio and the latest Marvel Universe Handbooks , even long after the Beyonder got retconned .
Also I see nothing but Phoenix Scans on trial from Retcon to currently this and that. Wheres Franklins that put him better in any way to Dark Phoenix, Green Phoenix, or White Crown Phoenix? He made a Pocket Universe and Brought Galactus back. He Killed a Celestial so what so did Galactus and Green Phoenix trumps him....
@CadenceV2: He actually cant. Established continuity will always outway what the editor says. Believe it or not after Stan Lee stepped down Quesada made it that writters could have alot more freedom with stories and such. That's why their are so many multiversal abstract beings. I know what I said sounds like a contradiction but what tom says isnt really law because
1. Continuity is still in play
2. Odin was never written as a Universal creator. Only Brovort or w/e his name said that off panel.
Also I see nothing but Phoenix Scans on trial from Retcon to currently this and that. Wheres Franklins that put him better in any way to Dark Phoenix, Green Phoenix, or White Crown Phoenix? He made a Pocket Universe and Brought Galactus back. He Killed a Celestial so what so did Galactus and Green Phoenix trumps him....
Read Fantastic Four # 582 . Also read Daydreamers and Man-Thing vol 3 . You'll begin to realize just how powerful Franklin really is .
@CadenceV2: He actually cant. Established continuity will always outway what the editor says. Believe it or not after Stan Lee stepped down Quesada made it that writters could have alot more freedom with stories and such. That's why their are so many multiversal abstract beings. I know what I said sounds like a contradiction but what tom says isnt really law because
1. Continuity is still in play
2. Odin was never written as a Universal creator. Only Brovort or w/e his name said that off panel.
I just hope this embarassment that is AvX goes away soon.... The artwork is Terrible and the Matches are PIS in the highest. Marvels biggest EPIC FAIL.
@daak1212: BTW, the last box says "He tries to make Phoenix stop, but she will not." That Screams he was force beyond his will. You cant twist that.
That's completely irrelevant , because the Beyonder was the one who gave her access to the the full extent of the powers of the Phoenix Force . Overloading an incomplete Cube Being , with the power input he himself provided to her , is apparently a great feat for her , according to you .
Okay, so this was Cube Beyonder not Classic Beyonder/Old School Beyonder
The Beyonder itself was Pre-Retcon . However the feat itself is cannon , and is referred in the PF's official Marvel bio and the latest Marvel Universe Handbooks , even long after the Beyonder got retconned .
So what Im gathering is that that's cube Beyonder. Yeah it's canon but that's the thing about Cube Beyonder. All of his feats still count it's just that non of them are as powerful or as grand as they used to be.
@CadenceV2 said:
Also I see nothing but Phoenix Scans on trial from Retcon to currently this and that. Wheres Franklins that put him better in any way to Dark Phoenix, Green Phoenix, or White Crown Phoenix? He made a Pocket Universe and Brought Galactus back. He Killed a Celestial so what so did Galactus and Green Phoenix trumps him....
Umm The Pocket Universe still holds more weight then cutting out a bad universe in the quote unquote Multiversal control room. Franklin did the same in the Crazy Space God arc with the revision wave.
Celestials are equal to Franklin and they're the ones who acknowledged this. So Franklin being a universal buster/manipulator and he fought let's see 3 Celestials not to mention brought back Galactus and gave him the energy of a baby Universe to kill them. ALso Franklin still did most of the work their.
@Hyper_God: Franklin own official Bio states he Celestial Level in power. A single Celestial. Thats not too impressive when the Dark Phoenix and Green Phoeinx trump that. Until he has Marvel 616 Universe showings other than Killing a Celestial or bringing Galactus back to his starving level Im going with the more Feats of Pheonix Force as a whole.
@daak1212: BTW, the last box says "He tries to make Phoenix stop, but she will not." That Screams he was force beyond his will. You cant twist that.
That's completely irrelevant , because the Beyonder was the one who gave her access to the the full extent of the powers of the Phoenix Force . Overloading an incomplete Cube Being , with the power input he himself provided to her , is apparently a great feat for her , according to you .
Okay, so this was Cube Beyonder not Classic Beyonder/Old School Beyonder
The Beyonder itself was Pre-Retcon . However the feat itself is cannon , and is referred in the PF's official Marvel bio and the latest Marvel Universe Handbooks , even long after the Beyonder got retconned .
So what Im gathering is that that's cube Beyonder. Yeah it's canon but that's the thing about Cube Beyonder. All of his feats still count it's just that non of them are as powerful or as grand as they used to be.
This particular feat , unlike his tussle with the Celestials , wasn't explained away as the Phoenix playing along with him . Its legit . It applies to the Incomplete Cube Being Beyonder .
@daak1212: BTW, the last box says "He tries to make Phoenix stop, but she will not." That Screams he was force beyond his will. You cant twist that.
That's completely irrelevant , because the Beyonder was the one who gave her access to the the full extent of the powers of the Phoenix Force . Overloading an incomplete Cube Being , with the power input he himself provided to her , is apparently a great feat for her , according to you .
Okay, so this was Cube Beyonder not Classic Beyonder/Old School Beyonder
The Beyonder itself was Pre-Retcon . However the feat itself is cannon , and is referred in the PF's official Marvel bio and the latest Marvel Universe Handbooks , even long after the Beyonder got retconned .
So what Im gathering is that that's cube Beyonder. Yeah it's canon but that's the thing about Cube Beyonder. All of his feats still count it's just that non of them are as powerful or as grand as they used to be.
This particular feat , unlike his tussle with the Celestials , wasn't explained away as the Phoenix playing along with him . Its legit . It applies to the Incomplete Cube Being Beyonder .
Thats what I just said. Even if the feat still counts that was Cube Beyonder was was light years weaker then Classic.
@Hyper_God: Franklin own official Bio states he Celestial Level in power. A single Celestial. Thats not too impressive when the Dark Phoenix and Green Phoeinx trump that. Until he has Marvel 616 Universe showings other than Killing a Celestial or bringing Galactus back to his starving level Im going with the more Feats of Pheonix Force as a whole. Hope gets crush, dont care about her.
He killed 2 Celestials under his own power . In Fantastic Four # 582 , he briefly halted the collapse of all realities into a single time-stream . He can generate self-sustaining pocket realities from nothing more but a void . His dreams projected multiple alternate realities in Daydreamers and Man-Thing vol 3 . That's why I told you to read these 2 comic series . Once you do , you'll begin to realize just how powerful Franklin really is .
Plus , Skyfathers and Incomplete Cube Beings have managed to produce a power-output on a multiversal and trans-multiversal scale respectively :
@Hyper_God: Franklin own official Bio states he Celestial Level in power. A single Celestial. Thats not too impressive when the Dark Phoenix and Green Phoeinx trump that. Until he has Marvel 616 Universe showings other than Killing a Celestial or bringing Galactus back to his starving level Im going with the more Feats of Pheonix Force as a whole. Hope gets crush, dont care about her.
Half the feats you said Franlins already did or are inconsequential in nature. Franklin resurected Galactus a Cosmic Compass Character and made him his own herald. Thats a pretty big feat not to mention he fed Galactus a baby universe during that time
@Hyper_God: Franklin own official Bio states he Celestial Level in power. A single Celestial. Thats not too impressive when the Dark Phoenix and Green Phoeinx trump that. Until he has Marvel 616 Universe showings other than Killing a Celestial or bringing Galactus back to his starving level Im going with the more Feats of Pheonix Force as a whole. Hope gets crush, dont care about her.
Half the feats you said Franlins already did or are inconsequential in nature. Franklin resurected Galactus a Cosmic Compass Character and made him his own herald. Thats a pretty big feat not to mention he fed Galactus a baby universe during that time
Nope . He rejuvenated Galactus with his younger self's power , in the form of a blue orb .
@Hyper_God: Franklin own official Bio states he Celestial Level in power. A single Celestial. Thats not too impressive when the Dark Phoenix and Green Phoeinx trump that. Until he has Marvel 616 Universe showings other than Killing a Celestial or bringing Galactus back to his starving level Im going with the more Feats of Pheonix Force as a whole. Hope gets crush, dont care about her.
He killed 2 Celestials under his own power . In Fantastic Four # 582 , he briefly halted the collapse of all realities into a single time-stream . He can generate self-sustaining pocket realities from nothing more but a void . His dreams projected multiple alternate realities in Daydreamers and Man-Thing vol 3 . That's why I told you to read these 2 comic series . Once you do , you'll begin to realize just how powerful Franklin really is .
Plus , Skyfathers and Incomplete Cube Beings have managed to produce a power-output on a multiversal and trans-multiversal scale respectively :
He combined them into one single good one and then made it lead back to the fight between the FantasticFour/Galactus vs The Crazy Space Gods(The insane Celestials) That's pretty friggin powerful and Nathaniel had his doubts about the enitre thing.
He also created two universes, MC2 and another one he made because he was bored in bed.
Actaully Odin and Seth match is severely misconstrued and that Beyonder MM fight might be the original one.
@daak1212: BTW, the last box says "He tries to make Phoenix stop, but she will not." That Screams he was force beyond his will. You cant twist that.
That's completely irrelevant , because the Beyonder was the one who gave her access to the the full extent of the powers of the Phoenix Force . Overloading an incomplete Cube Being , with the power input he himself provided to her , is apparently a great feat for her , according to you .
Okay, so this was Cube Beyonder not Classic Beyonder/Old School Beyonder
The Beyonder itself was Pre-Retcon . However the feat itself is cannon , and is referred in the PF's official Marvel bio and the latest Marvel Universe Handbooks , even long after the Beyonder got retconned .
So what Im gathering is that that's cube Beyonder. Yeah it's canon but that's the thing about Cube Beyonder. All of his feats still count it's just that non of them are as powerful or as grand as they used to be.
This particular feat , unlike his tussle with the Celestials , wasn't explained away as the Phoenix playing along with him . Its legit . It applies to the Incomplete Cube Being Beyonder .
Thats what I just said. Even if the feat still counts that was Cube Beyonder was was light years weaker then Classic.
Nope . You stated that that none of his feats are as grand as they used to be . I proved you wrong by revealing to you that this particular feat with the Phoenix wasn't explained away as the Phoenix simply playing along with him , unlike his fight with the Celestials and his interaction with most other Abstracts .
@Hyper_God: Franklin own official Bio states he Celestial Level in power. A single Celestial. Thats not too impressive when the Dark Phoenix and Green Phoeinx trump that. Until he has Marvel 616 Universe showings other than Killing a Celestial or bringing Galactus back to his starving level Im going with the more Feats of Pheonix Force as a whole. Hope gets crush, dont care about her.
He killed 2 Celestials under his own power . In Fantastic Four # 582 , he briefly halted the collapse of all realities into a single time-stream . He can generate self-sustaining pocket realities from nothing more but a void . His dreams projected multiple alternate realities in Daydreamers and Man-Thing vol 3 . That's why I told you to read these 2 comic series . Once you do , you'll begin to realize just how powerful Franklin really is .
Plus , Skyfathers and Incomplete Cube Beings have managed to produce a power-output on a multiversal and trans-multiversal scale respectively :
He combined them into one single good one and then made it lead back to the fight between the FantasticFour/Galactus vs The Crazy Space Gods(The insane Celestials) That's pretty friggin powerful and Nathaniel had his doubts about the enitre thing.
He also created two universes, MC2 and another one he made because he was bored in bed.
Actaully Odin and Seth match is severely misconstrued and that Beyonder MM fight might be the original one.
The Odin-Seth fight isn't misconstrued at all . Their fight rocked the very fabric of the multiverse . The on-panel evidence is as pure as distilled water . Its a recent showing , from 1996 , and is referred in Marvel's official bio for these characters .
@daak1212: BTW, the last box says "He tries to make Phoenix stop, but she will not." That Screams he was force beyond his will. You cant twist that.
That's completely irrelevant , because the Beyonder was the one who gave her access to the the full extent of the powers of the Phoenix Force . Overloading an incomplete Cube Being , with the power input he himself provided to her , is apparently a great feat for her , according to you .
Okay, so this was Cube Beyonder not Classic Beyonder/Old School Beyonder
The Beyonder itself was Pre-Retcon . However the feat itself is cannon , and is referred in the PF's official Marvel bio and the latest Marvel Universe Handbooks , even long after the Beyonder got retconned .
So what Im gathering is that that's cube Beyonder. Yeah it's canon but that's the thing about Cube Beyonder. All of his feats still count it's just that non of them are as powerful or as grand as they used to be.
This particular feat , unlike his tussle with the Celestials , wasn't explained away as the Phoenix playing along with him . Its legit . It applies to the Incomplete Cube Being Beyonder .
Thats what I just said. Even if the feat still counts that was Cube Beyonder was was light years weaker then Classic.
Nope . You stated that that none of his feats are as grand as they used to be . I proved you wrong by revealing to you that this particular feat with the Phoenix wasn't explained away as the Phoenix simply playing along with him , unlike his fight with the Celestials and his interaction with most other Abstracts .
You said that that was Cube Beyonder an Phoenix. Hence forth that is the weaker Beyonder and most of his old feats where down graded.
The fight with Molecule Man you posted was Pre Retcon not Cube Beyonder.
To Cadancev2 I present you with this
@Hyper_God said:
@daak1212 said:
@CadenceV2 said:
@Hyper_God: Franklin own official Bio states he Celestial Level in power. A single Celestial. Thats not too impressive when the Dark Phoenix and Green Phoeinx trump that. Until he has Marvel 616 Universe showings other than Killing a Celestial or bringing Galactus back to his starving level Im going with the more Feats of Pheonix Force as a whole. Hope gets crush, dont care about her.
Half the feats you said Franlins already did or are inconsequential in nature. Franklin resurected Galactus a Cosmic Compass Character and made him his own herald. Thats a pretty big feat not to mention he fed Galactus a baby universe during that time
Nope . He rejuvenated Galactus with his younger self's power , in the form of a blue orb .
He resurected him and it was a baby universe. You remeber (god it was a while back) it was a back issue of Fantastic Four with Franklin Richards and some white energy being (which was revealed to be Adult Franklin) and he said put this universe in your closet? Remember how him and the alien kid you to play in the closet/pocket universe? That was the same thing that was used to feed Galactus. He told him use it keep it for safe keeping and he brought it their for the match.
@daak1212: BTW, the last box says "He tries to make Phoenix stop, but she will not." That Screams he was force beyond his will. You cant twist that.
That's completely irrelevant , because the Beyonder was the one who gave her access to the the full extent of the powers of the Phoenix Force . Overloading an incomplete Cube Being , with the power input he himself provided to her , is apparently a great feat for her , according to you .
Okay, so this was Cube Beyonder not Classic Beyonder/Old School Beyonder
The Beyonder itself was Pre-Retcon . However the feat itself is cannon , and is referred in the PF's official Marvel bio and the latest Marvel Universe Handbooks , even long after the Beyonder got retconned .
So what Im gathering is that that's cube Beyonder. Yeah it's canon but that's the thing about Cube Beyonder. All of his feats still count it's just that non of them are as powerful or as grand as they used to be.
This particular feat , unlike his tussle with the Celestials , wasn't explained away as the Phoenix playing along with him . Its legit . It applies to the Incomplete Cube Being Beyonder .
Thats what I just said. Even if the feat still counts that was Cube Beyonder was was light years weaker then Classic.
Nope . You stated that that none of his feats are as grand as they used to be . I proved you wrong by revealing to you that this particular feat with the Phoenix wasn't explained away as the Phoenix simply playing along with him , unlike his fight with the Celestials and his interaction with most other Abstracts .
You said that that was Cube Beyonder an Phoenix. Hence forth that is the weaker Beyonder and most of his old feats where down graded.
The fight with Molecule Man you posted was Pre Retcon not Cube Beyonder.
That feat with the Phoenix wasn't downgraded .
Those were Post-Retcon versions . That story was written by Len Kaminski , one year after the story in which a Celestial scared Kubik and Kosmos(written by Kaminski as well) . Its the arc in which Molecule Man's darkest aspect removed the Beyonder personality from Kosmos , and both engaged in battle . Here's the full fight :
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