Adult Ashoka Tano vs Count Dooku (Attack of the Clones Era)

Morals are on and the battle takes place where dooku faught Obiwan and anakin.

Win by death.

Dooku would win.

I don't think AOTC Dooku is significantly weaker than ROTS Dooku, and on that basis I don't think Ahsoka will be winning this one. Dooku's handling of Obi-Wan (while also dealing with Anakin!), even prior to the telekinetic knockout, gives me an idea of how this fight will go. Ahsoka will likely push Dooku to a greater extent than Kenobi ever did due to Kenobi typically being a defensive fighter, but there still exists in my opinion a fairly significant skill gap between the two.

dooku likely takes it. However Ahsoka's near parity with Vader is sufficient to imply that Dooku is only taking this in a highly contentious affair.

Dooku

Dooku

@kbroskywalker:

Young Anakin merked him pretty hard and Ahsoka nearly managed a head wound on ~prime Vader.

Anakin>vader

Cheapshots are not valid

Not in canon. Vader has been directly confirmed to be his superior.

@lordofthelight: Yeah Legends Vader as of ANH is also better than MF Anakin who is a 9. Who is above his start of RotS self who was equal or slightly superior to Dooku with an amp.

@greysentinel365

I don't think we should mix legends into Rebels. Rebels Ahsoka is a purely canonical character.

But generally, yeah.

@lordofthelight: I'm pointing out that it's consistent that ANH/Rebels Vader is above bare minimum MF Anakin regardless of continuity.

@greysentinel365

In power, yeah.

I personally haven't seen a quote that elevates ANH Vader above MF Vader in saber combat.

Dooku wins.

Ahsoka should be able to take this with some difficulty. Anakin used his anger to physically drain dooku of this energy with each blow. Darth Vader is even stronger now when using his anger and Ahsoka lasted longer than dooku.

Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-

Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

While Ahsoka held her ground, Dooku was running.

Dooku. Also, StarWars.com confirms Vader could never be as strong as Anakin was during his days under Sidious, so Vader being > Anakin is unlikely even in canon.

Yeah, Dooku

Are you referring to this?

VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.

-- Lords Of The Sith

Mustafar Anakin is different. Plus the quote could be referring to potential.

@greysentinel365

Who is above his start of RotS self who was equal or slightly superior to Dooku with an amp.

What are you referring to here?

Bump

Dooku easily, almost effortless. I think the reason Vader didn't utterly destroy her was due to some sort of plot driven emotional connection crap.

Besides, Dooku was as good as, if not better than Windu, who was just under Yoda in terms of force strength and dueling abilities. Dooku in a stomp.

Dooku in a good fight. I think his experience and force knowledge/power will give him the edge overall.

I'd imagine Dooku's saber skill would be a lot more crucial to his victory than force ability. Lightning would also provide a bit of an edge.

I doubt Dooku's telekinetically doing anything significant here.

@kbroskywalker: True. Dooku as much more experience fighting other high level duelists. The only person Ahsoka really fought on Dooku's level before was Vader, and Vader doesn't even fight like Dooku does. While Dooku has fought many other high level duelists before of many different styles. I could see Dooku doing something telekinetically if there is a lot of debris around, similarly to how he crushed Kenobi, but without something to try and crush her with all he could really do is knock her back like Vader did to her.

@laurus:

Dooku easily, almost effortless. I think the reason Vader didn't utterly destroy her was due to some sort of plot driven emotional connection crap.

It's been explicitly confirmed Vader wanted to kill her and that Vader didn't have the light brought out of him until Luke came around. On the other hand, it's been implied Malchor was a ds nexus and that Vader had an advantage having trained Ahsoka(though the second piece of context is countered by Ahsoka being well suited to fight bigger opponents per Hidalgo).

So we're left with Ahsoka contending with Vader for almost two minutes under unfavorable circumstances. As Vader's holistically implied to be> Doku, is implied by Sidious to be>Dooku, and has better feats than Dooku, I'm questioning your claim that Dooku is stomping someone who gave Vader a great fight.

Besides, Dooku was as good as, if not better than Windu, who was just under Yoda in terms of force strength and dueling abilities.

Nope, Windu is an "eight bordering nine" per Gillard, Dooku is only an eight.

@alextheboss:

True. Dooku as much more experience fighting other high level duelists.

Doubt that's going to be decisive.

The only person Ahsoka really fought on Dooku's level before was Vader, and Vader doesn't even fight like Dooku does.

So?

While Dooku has fought many other high level duelists before of many different styles.

He does have a stylistic edge vs Ataru given how he trained Qui-Gon and completely wrecked Kenobi when ever he tried to play offensively. Honestly though, the best case to be made for him is that his dueling feats are better than Ahsoka's. Holding his own vs Yoda and beating ROTS Kenobi is more impressive than being close to Vader and being close to a Kenobi+duelist.

I could see Dooku doing something telekinetically if there is a lot of debris around, similarly to how he crushed Kenobi,

He didn't use debris to do that.

but without something to try and crush her with all he could really do is knock her back like Vader did to her.

Not without forcing a lapse in her defense. Vader only pushed Ahsoka back when he had thrown her off balance with a bladelock and she consequently was unable to defend herself. I doubt Dooku is achieving similar results given Ahsoka's strong enough to send the likes of Maul flailing backwards and that strength is not a key part of Dooku's style. He could conceivably unbalance her with footwork though.

@kbroskywalker:

Doubt that's going to be decisive.

I agree, but it helps.

So?

Coming across something new always puts someone at a disadvantage.

He didn't use debris to do that.

He brought down the bridge to crush him. If he didn't do that Obi-wan might of been able to get back into the fight.

@kbroskywalker: I actually think Dooku > Vader in some cases. CW Anakin and Obi Wan fought Dooku on several occasions, in none of which did they seem close to coming out on top. Dooku regularly dispatches them effortlessly, almost. Anakin should not have beaten Dooku in ROTS but that's besides the point, I highly doubt that adult Ahsoka could take on CW Obi-Wan and Anakin and come out unscathed, several times. I also highly doubt Vader could too, though he would fare much better.

Let's also take into account that Dooku is smart, he would likely think of some way to come out on top using force abilities if he's falling behind in the duel.

Laurus said:

Let's also take into account that Dooku is smart, he would likely think of some way to come out on top using force abilities if he's falling behind in the duel.

In fairness, Vader does this too. He makes frequent use of his Force powers in the comics when he's outnumbered.

wollfmyth209 said:

Except LotS, the Vader comics and every medium in current CANON reaffirms Vader as Anakin's superior; both in feats and narrative statements. You tried to push the contrary notion six months ago by contaminating discussions with info from Legends and it failed spectacularly. The claim is just as wrong now as it was then. Dooku and Wankfall Vader are no longer untouchable demi-gods because:

Legends =/= Canon

We also have Leland Chee's quote verifying that Vader's loss of limbs did not effect his connection to the Force. Which further solidifies that as long Disney calls the shots, suit Vader will continue to be above any other incarnation of the Anakin/Vader character.

Ahsoka’s not even better than Maul who would split with Dooku, so the Count wins here.

That doesn't make any sense.

She doesn't need to be "better" than someone who can split with the count to split with the count.

Setting aside he stalemated Maul on a nexus, was stated to be > on even ground, that maul has worse feats than Dooku, and has fared worse vs Kenobi.

@kbroskywalker: Maul is better than Ahsoka. He can split with Dooku, white that close of swordsmen. Ahsoka isn’t as good as Maul, therefore she isn’t going to be splitting with Dooku or winning his fight for a majority.

Do you need it simplified anymore?

dooku

@thevivas:

Maul is better than Ahsoka

It's a shame their actual fight and authorial confirmations disagree with you.

He can split with Dooku, white that close of swordsmen.

Again, why? What does Maul have that put's him = to Dooku?

Do you need it simplified anymore?

It'd be nice if you ever felt the need to provide evidence for your claims, or actual reasoning as to why you want to disregard all the evidence someone else provides. But as it is, the last time we had this your argument came down to:

A. Their duel was inconclusive

B. Their duel was inconclusive

Which

A. Doesn't prove Maul>Ahsoka

B. Doesn't prove Maul>Ahsoka

@kbroskywalker: You mean the fight where Ahsoka punches him back, which you somehow equate to “being more skilled”? And lmao at authorial confirmation. In case oh didn’t know kbro, you aren’t an authorial figure.

What does Maul have that puts him =/> Dooku? Do you mean besides accolades, feats, and scaling?

Evidence was provided in the past and like usual, you glossed over it and disregarded it in favor of your misinterpreted quotes, fan-fic context to Ahsoka’s feats, and your flawed scaling system.

@thevivas:

You mean the fight where Ahsoka punches him back, which you somehow equate to “being more skilled”?

Again, nexus:

"can you explain/justify/defend the inquisitors being able to fly on their spinning lightsabers"

Henry Gilroy: "There's an A answer and there's a B answer. The A answer is usually my go to easiest answer which is that you have to ask Dave Filoni. The B answer I would say is a longer mythological discussion and it relates specifically to Malachor, and how it is the home of this Sith Temple."

The Jedi temple Kanan brings Ezra to is located in Lothal's highlands. The energy of the Force radiates from the central temple spire. Ezra listens to the secrets of the ruins as he presses his hands upon the icy stone. He senses that the temple will allow both him and Kanan to enter.

Star Wars Rebels: Visual Guide: Epic Battles

And I'm not sure why you're so opposed to paying attention to details in combat, like

A. Overpowering someone in a sustained bout of strength

B. Driving a swordsmen who's style is based on all-out offense back

That's how you figure out who's better when combatants are close, details. But even disregarding details, because apparently the only way to decide who's shown as superior is to have someone straight up amputate someone else, the best you can argue for Maul here is he fought evenly with Ahsoka.

Which leaves us with Ahsoka fighting an amped Maul as an equal. Logic would dictate she's better on even ground and guess what, the dude who oversees all of animation agrees:

"We used to have this problem in Clone Wars when we would try to put Yoda in a story and it would be like, “Yeah, if Yoda’s there, this isn’t really a problem is it?” That’s because Yoda’s going to go in there and kick everyone’s butt. We all felt that Ahsoka, the only person that could really match her in this time period, blow for blow, would be Vader or the Emperor."

Guess who isn't on that list of potential enemies from the time period of Rebels who can fight Ahsoka as an exact equal(or superior)...

Darth Maul.

And lmao at authorial confirmation. In case oh didn’t know kbro, you aren’t an authorial figure.

Feloni is an authoritative figure, stop deflecting. And don't BS me with "Feloni was only talking about imperial opponents" when that's never alluded to anywhere in the text.

What does Maul have that puts him =/> Dooku? Do you mean besides accolades, feats, and scaling?

What? Dooku has better feats and accolades in every category.

Maul is one of the most skilled sith in history, Dooku was the second most skilled and powerful jedi in history before growing significantly more powerful with the darkside.

Maul contends with TCW Kenobi? Dooku has beat ROTS Kenobi and was clowning season 6 Kenobi and Season 6 Anakin simultaneously.

Maul has nothing placing him on par with dooku who has him beat in for feats or accolades as both a force user or a duelist.

Evidence was provided in the past and like usual,

You mean a starwars.coim quote that never mentions maul's combative abilities and only applies specifically to Malachor? Your double standards amuse me bro:

-> Feloni explicitly places Ahsoka above any enemies aside from Vader and the Emperor in a quote applying to her abilities in general. Your response: "It doesn't mean anything!"

-> Starwars.com doesn't even mention Maul's combative abilities: "Maul>Ahsoka"!

you glossed over it and disregarded it in favor of your misinterpreted

No, unlike you, I actually went in depth and gave reasoning as to why your evidence doesn't prove what you think it does:

I brush it aside because it never says Maul is stronger than Ahsoka, only that he's the best choice to protect Ezra. This can be due to a variety off reasons, like Maul knowing the temple. Also, even if we took that inference you're drawing from it to be true, it would only apply to Malachor, not a bout on even footing which Feloni has told us Maul isn't an exact equal for Ahsoka in.

This is glossing over evidence you don't like:

You can’t bring “it’s implied to be a nexus” and expect it to actually be evidence.

Again, you're not willing to accept inferences of evidence even though that's literally how debating works, but you're willing to accept them when they favor your argument:

the starwars.com quote to beat her, it just helps.

Make up your mind Vivas

A. we can only go off what is explicitly is stated in the text

B. We can draw inferences

Pick one and apply it as consistently as possible.

There's also this:

Yeah I’ve seen you regurgitate that quote around for a while now, and it still does nothing to suggest she’s authoritatively above him.

I'm actually addressing your evidence and countering it, you're dismissing the evidence I provide without explaining why you want to dismiss it.

Simply put, I'm actually willing to discuss, you just put your fingers in your ears like a five year old whenever anyone disagrees with you.

With that in mind, here's the argument for Ahsoka>Maul:

A. She sent him flailing backwards with superior strength

B. She drove him back despite Maul being the more offensive fighter

C. Maul, unlike Ahsoka, failed to garner any advantage whatsoever despite being on a place implied to boost darksiders by Henry Gilroy and in a temple has been explicitly stated to contain force energy that helps force users out.

D. The creator of the show lists the potential opponents who can match her during this time period and leaves Maul off the list

the argument for the reverse?

A. Their duel was inconclusive

B. Their duel was inconclusive

Tell me honestly Vivas, which argument do you find more compelling?

Oh and hey, maybe this time you should try quoting me and responding to what I say instead of going into tangent ad hominems which conveniently don't even bother to try addressing the substance of my posts:

fan-fic context to Ahsoka’s feats

@darthant66

Canon seems to be taking a new direction on Vader. Found this tweet by Chee in some Vader thread:

https://twitter.com/HolocronKeeper/status/833437960934662145

Seems the whole "injuries decrease power by a lot" thing has been shunned by Canon, at least according to Chee. What's more, Chee says that Lucas himself changed his views from time to time, upon new releases etc. And the whole thing makes sense from the direction and portrayal they gave Darth Maul.

The LOTS quote, yes. And Rebels Recon which is canon.

Considering Vader regarded Anakin as "weak," his opinion is irrelevant and, as we learn in Return of the Jedi, outright wrong.

Not really. Vader regarding Anakin as weak is far more likely to be referring to the fact that Anakin still had a lot of the light in him. Sith in general regard Jedi as "weak", simply because they refuse to embrace the power of the dark side and claim what could be theirs. Weak in other words, due to the compassion and "good" which is still present within them. Not in regards to power( unless you are counting Sith like Darth Maul, who are egotistical maniacs anyways, much more than even the Sith norm, and have a far more inflated opinion of their own abilities than the reality dictates).

The LOTS quote is also the narrator's narration, not Vader's opinion. Well, not the first one at least.

For the sake of just "argument", even if it was Vader's opinion, if he can actually feel his connection to the force increasing, then he does get more powerful. It doesn't have anything to do with the fact that he regards Anakin as "weak"( as I said, that is most likely referring to the fact that Anakin didn't embrace the dark side, at least fully). The fact still would remain that he would sense his increased connection to the force, and be in the best position to compare. In other words, either way, he gets more powerful. You are attempting to create a constriction where there isn't any.

The second quote is directly from Vader's perspective and states that Vader had never felt so powerful as when his fury burned or something like that. I would hardly "not" give this weight, much less dismiss his opinion as "irrelevant". Vader can and is in the best position to judge. If he experiences a stronger sensation than he ever has before, then yes, it is perfectly true. Bringing "Vader thinks Anakin is weak" into this is hardly fair, if not utterly wrong.

Garbage concept I know, but that's what the new canon is. A mess. Attempting to reconcile things is, in my opinion, pretty pointless.

Also, this wasn't directed to me, but:

>Has explicit, canonical source placing him above Dooku.

@lordofthelight: I thought that the explanation with Maul was that Talzin's sorcery restored him to his full strength?

@darthant66:

[Maul] Has explicit, canonical source placing him above Dooku.

@emperor339: IIRC it's the same one that has Vader>Sidious. That's arguably about popularity as some of the other lists in that source are.

And finally DA just had a rant the other day on how Canon sources aren't definite. So really the one quote doesn't mean much in canon.

Oh you mean the kind of source that has Aotc Kenobi>Dooku and Fisto>TPM Maul?

Noted.

And BTW, that also has Vader as a 9+ Sids level swordsmen, so have fun with that.

@lordofthelight:

The LOTS quote, yes. And Rebels Recon which is canon.

If you're referring to Vader being in his "prime", prime was very clearly referring to his commitment to the darkside, not his combative power.

@darthant66: [Maul] Has explicit, canonical source placing him above Dooku.

Quote for Maul > Dooku?

@darthant66:

No? I mean the one Pablo Hidalgo personally said on Twitter to be canonical.

Hidalgo also wrote the book calling fisto>tpm maul

If you're case is rooted in "absolutes," which is the case for you here, Maul will mop the floor.

Not once have I mentioned absolutes. Stop mischaracterizing what I say.

Bump