Achilles (Troy) vs Winter Soldier (MCU)

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  • Achilles has two swords, Bucky has two knives
  • Fight to the death
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dondave

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Sword through the trapezius ftw

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#4  Edited By slimj87d

Achilles.

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mismatch

90 year old vs a gods son

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I'd say Bucky 8/10 with his metal arm giving him the majority. Speed n reaction wise they're close with Achilles having the slight advantage. Achilles has the greater skill but Bucky's arm allows him block most attacks with no damage and potentially one shot if he grabs him

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LEGACY6364

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#7  Edited By LEGACY6364

If it's movie Achilles this is a mismatch, Winter Soldier wins. He held his own against a super soldier.

Start at 1:37

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The_Knight_Rhoden

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Stomp and mismatch if both are movie versions, Achilles in the movies was only portrayed to be a very skilled human who was speculatively supernatural whereas the winter soldier matched Cap in strength and has superior hand to hand skill compared to Achilles. I was hoping to use this if Bucky had his weapons.

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Bucky would win anyways. His hand to hand techniques are centuries ahead of Achilles.

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Movie Verses Winter soldier wins

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Noone301994

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Winter Soldier.

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@the_knight_rhoden:

Achilles in the movies was only portrayed to be a very skilled human who was speculatively supernatural

And this is false. The velocity Bradchilles was able to launch his spear was such that he'd need to be superhumanly strong in order to manage it (there was a calc done on it), and he was pretty casually dodging/deflecting arrows and spears. I'd say he's pretty comfortably in Bucky's physical range, even if just by the way his character was portrayed.

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LEGACY6364

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@the_knight_rhoden:

Achilles in the movies was only portrayed to be a very skilled human who was speculatively supernatural

And this is false. The velocity Bradchilles was able to launch his spear was such that he'd need to be superhumanly strong in order to manage it (there was a calc done on it), and he was pretty casually dodging/deflecting arrows and spears. I'd say he's pretty comfortably in Bucky's physical range, even if just by the way his character was portrayed.

I don't think I watched the same movie. Because he looked pretty human to me.

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@i_like_swords said:

@the_knight_rhoden:

Achilles in the movies was only portrayed to be a very skilled human who was speculatively supernatural

And this is false. The velocity Bradchilles was able to launch his spear was such that he'd need to be superhumanly strong in order to manage it (there was a calc done on it), and he was pretty casually dodging/deflecting arrows and spears. I'd say he's pretty comfortably in Bucky's physical range, even if just by the way his character was portrayed.

I don't think I watched the same movie. Because he looked pretty human to me.

Define "human" - you mean real life human?

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dimitridkatsis

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@legacy6364: Nah, the way he fought was impossible, it is also implied his mother is some sort of deity able to see the future.

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#17  Edited By Wolfrazer

@dimitridkatsis: She actually did, she saw his future, had the same name and everything.

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#18  Edited By LEGACY6364

@i_like_swords said:

@legacy6364 said:

@i_like_swords said:

@the_knight_rhoden:

Achilles in the movies was only portrayed to be a very skilled human who was speculatively supernatural

And this is false. The velocity Bradchilles was able to launch his spear was such that he'd need to be superhumanly strong in order to manage it (there was a calc done on it), and he was pretty casually dodging/deflecting arrows and spears. I'd say he's pretty comfortably in Bucky's physical range, even if just by the way his character was portrayed.

I don't think I watched the same movie. Because he looked pretty human to me.

Define "human" - you mean real life human?

Yes, real life human. Achilles showed extreme skill in the movie, but I can't put him above a real life human.

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@i_like_swords said:

@legacy6364 said:

@i_like_swords said:

@the_knight_rhoden:

Achilles in the movies was only portrayed to be a very skilled human who was speculatively supernatural

And this is false. The velocity Bradchilles was able to launch his spear was such that he'd need to be superhumanly strong in order to manage it (there was a calc done on it), and he was pretty casually dodging/deflecting arrows and spears. I'd say he's pretty comfortably in Bucky's physical range, even if just by the way his character was portrayed.

I don't think I watched the same movie. Because he looked pretty human to me.

Define "human" - you mean real life human?

Yes, real life human. Achilles showed extreme skill in the movie, but I can't put him above a real life human.

So, a real life human can run towards a thrown spear and dodge it at the last second casually?

Can storm a beach of hundreds of trojan archers and soldiers, up hill, with 50 men, while deflecting numerous arrows after they were fired, and then proceed to kill literally dozens of them single handedly while surrounded?

Can throw a spear at over 600mph?

Not seeing it. I'll admit the finer details of his feats are pretty subtle, but he's far beyond a regular human being.

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LEGACY6364

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@legacy6364: Nah, the way he fought was impossible, it is also implied his mother is some sort of deity able to see the future.

I'll go back and take another look. I can't argue since I'm not to sure.

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@i_like_swords: I'll go back and take another look. I can't argue since I'm not to sure.

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@legacy6364 said:

@i_like_swords said:

@legacy6364 said:

@i_like_swords said:

@the_knight_rhoden:

Achilles in the movies was only portrayed to be a very skilled human who was speculatively supernatural

And this is false. The velocity Bradchilles was able to launch his spear was such that he'd need to be superhumanly strong in order to manage it (there was a calc done on it), and he was pretty casually dodging/deflecting arrows and spears. I'd say he's pretty comfortably in Bucky's physical range, even if just by the way his character was portrayed.

I don't think I watched the same movie. Because he looked pretty human to me.

Define "human" - you mean real life human?

Yes, real life human. Achilles showed extreme skill in the movie, but I can't put him above a real life human.

So, a real life human can run towards a thrown spear and dodge it at the last second casually?

Can storm a beach of hundreds of trojan archers and soldiers, up hill, with 50 men, while deflecting numerous arrows after they were fired, and then proceed to kill literally dozens of them single handedly while surrounded?

Can throw a spear at over 600mph?

Not seeing it. I'll admit the finer details of his feats are pretty subtle, but he's far beyond a regular human being.

Bravo. Achilles wins.

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Achilles. He's the greatest warrior of all time.

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#24 rogueshadow  Moderator

Achilles wins in a very tough fight for reasons already mentioned, but it's a slim majority. Good fight.

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Leo-343

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Um... Bucky wins this he has the stats and skill. Come on.

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Bucky

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Jacthripper

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Bucky

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Bucky of course.

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The_Knight_Rhoden

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Bucky's hand to hand skill is centuries ahead of Achilles's skill, Bucky will win. Modern fighting styles which implement the best of all fighting styles across history are superior to ancient greek styles which were from a limited time span and region.

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Bucky's hand to hand skill is centuries ahead of Achilles's skill, Bucky will win. Modern fighting styles which implement the best of all fighting styles across history are superior to ancient greek styles which were from a limited time span and region.

Going by that logic, any random Joe who takes a boxing class could beat up a Roman Legionnaire simply because his "skill" is "centuries ahead". You won't find better swordfighters today than you did back then, because back then swordfighting was the equivalent of the gun warfare we have today - it's what every soldier was versed in. Same can't be said for soldiers of today and visa versa.

Regardless of all of that, merely by looking at the screen and comparing them allows you to deduce that they're far closer as combatants than people are giving credit for.

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It's 2 knives vs 2 swords, sure WS can use his metal arm for shield but Achilles could work a way around it.

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@the_knight_rhoden said:

Bucky's hand to hand skill is centuries ahead of Achilles's skill, Bucky will win. Modern fighting styles which implement the best of all fighting styles across history are superior to ancient greek styles which were from a limited time span and region.

Going by that logic, any random Joe who takes a boxing class could beat up a Roman Legionnaire simply because his "skill" is "centuries ahead". You won't find better swordfighters today than you did back then, because back then swordfighting was the equivalent of the gun warfare we have today - it's what every soldier was versed in. Same can't be said for soldiers of today and visa versa.

Regardless of all of that, merely by looking at the screen and comparing them allows you to deduce that they're far closer as combatants than people are giving credit for.

Buts its just not any boxing class in Bucky's case, he's trained in styles from across the world, he's absolutely lethal in a fight, that and his bionic arm which he knows how to utilize will put him above Achilles. He's a trained killer of the 21st century whereas Achilles is a trained killer of the 1st century AD.

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@i_like_swords said:

@the_knight_rhoden said:

Bucky's hand to hand skill is centuries ahead of Achilles's skill, Bucky will win. Modern fighting styles which implement the best of all fighting styles across history are superior to ancient greek styles which were from a limited time span and region.

Going by that logic, any random Joe who takes a boxing class could beat up a Roman Legionnaire simply because his "skill" is "centuries ahead". You won't find better swordfighters today than you did back then, because back then swordfighting was the equivalent of the gun warfare we have today - it's what every soldier was versed in. Same can't be said for soldiers of today and visa versa.

Regardless of all of that, merely by looking at the screen and comparing them allows you to deduce that they're far closer as combatants than people are giving credit for.

Buts its just not any boxing class in Bucky's case, he's trained in styles from across the world, he's absolutely lethal in a fight, that and his bionic arm which he knows how to utilize will put him above Achilles. He's a trained killer of the 21st century whereas Achilles is a trained killer of the 1st century AD.

It really doesn't matter in this context though, because they're both movie characters, and one is a demigod who's level of skill and physical ability is far beyond what can be taught in the real world. I don't think the timescale argument really holds up when you look at what Achilles can actually do.

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I think Bucky wins this, haven't seen Troy in a while so my info on Achilles is a little hazy. I feel that while Achilles is definitely above normal human Bucky is as well and I'd put Bucky above Achilles in physicals especially with his cyborg arm. If WS gets a direct hit with that this Achilles is going down seeing as he gets killed by normal arrows. If movie Achilles was supernatural like the myth version (or at least as supernatural) those arrows wouldn't have hurt him. I'd give Bucky the majority 6-7/10.

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The_Knight_Rhoden

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@the_knight_rhoden said:

@i_like_swords said:

@the_knight_rhoden said:

Bucky's hand to hand skill is centuries ahead of Achilles's skill, Bucky will win. Modern fighting styles which implement the best of all fighting styles across history are superior to ancient greek styles which were from a limited time span and region.

Going by that logic, any random Joe who takes a boxing class could beat up a Roman Legionnaire simply because his "skill" is "centuries ahead". You won't find better swordfighters today than you did back then, because back then swordfighting was the equivalent of the gun warfare we have today - it's what every soldier was versed in. Same can't be said for soldiers of today and visa versa.

Regardless of all of that, merely by looking at the screen and comparing them allows you to deduce that they're far closer as combatants than people are giving credit for.

Buts its just not any boxing class in Bucky's case, he's trained in styles from across the world, he's absolutely lethal in a fight, that and his bionic arm which he knows how to utilize will put him above Achilles. He's a trained killer of the 21st century whereas Achilles is a trained killer of the 1st century AD.

It really doesn't matter in this context though, because they're both movie characters, and one is a demigod who's level of skill and physical ability is far beyond what can be taught in the real world. I don't think the timescale argument really holds up when you look at what Achilles can actually do.

Hmmm true I would concede to you there, Achille's skill level is well above superhuman and may even approach godly levels, not even Captain America could take him in terms of sword skills. I really enjoyed our discussion thanks for making my day.

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ParagonNate

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@i_like_swords:

I'm not 100% sure movie Achilles was genuinely a demigod, he was certainly above normal human but I don't think he was magical or supernatural beyond being an amazingly skilled warrior. At least as far as 'normal' human seemed to be in the Troy movie universe.

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Bucky

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Achilles is getting overhyped really hard. I just watched that movie like to 2 days ago, he is impressive and probably movie "peak" human but he is not on Bucky or Cap's level at all.

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@i_like_swords said:

@the_knight_rhoden said:

@i_like_swords said:

@the_knight_rhoden said:

Bucky's hand to hand skill is centuries ahead of Achilles's skill, Bucky will win. Modern fighting styles which implement the best of all fighting styles across history are superior to ancient greek styles which were from a limited time span and region.

Going by that logic, any random Joe who takes a boxing class could beat up a Roman Legionnaire simply because his "skill" is "centuries ahead". You won't find better swordfighters today than you did back then, because back then swordfighting was the equivalent of the gun warfare we have today - it's what every soldier was versed in. Same can't be said for soldiers of today and visa versa.

Regardless of all of that, merely by looking at the screen and comparing them allows you to deduce that they're far closer as combatants than people are giving credit for.

Buts its just not any boxing class in Bucky's case, he's trained in styles from across the world, he's absolutely lethal in a fight, that and his bionic arm which he knows how to utilize will put him above Achilles. He's a trained killer of the 21st century whereas Achilles is a trained killer of the 1st century AD.

It really doesn't matter in this context though, because they're both movie characters, and one is a demigod who's level of skill and physical ability is far beyond what can be taught in the real world. I don't think the timescale argument really holds up when you look at what Achilles can actually do.

Hmmm true I would concede to you there, Achille's skill level is well above superhuman and may even approach godly levels, not even Captain America could take him in terms of sword skills. I really enjoyed our discussion thanks for making my day.

You're one of the first people that have managed to keep a debate civil with me these past few days, so thanks! :D

@i_like_swords:

I'm not 100% sure movie Achilles was genuinely a demigod, he was certainly above normal human but I don't think he was magical or supernatural beyond being an amazingly skilled warrior. At least as far as 'normal' human seemed to be in the Troy movie universe.

His goddess mother, Thetis, appears in the film and predicts both of Achilles' potential futures, depending on whether he fights or not. He's also said to be favoured by the God's in it. He definitely had god-blood in him, but he may not have had genuine superhuman powers as far as the Troy universe goes, like you said. Still, Bucky isn't enhanced apart from his arm, either, and he's also definitely superhuman by our standards.

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Achilles is getting overhyped really hard. I just watched that movie like to 2 days ago, he is impressive and probably movie "peak" human but he is not on Bucky or Cap's level at all.

In a sword fight he definitely is.

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Achilies speed blitzes him

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@man_of_miracles said:

Achilles is getting overhyped really hard. I just watched that movie like to 2 days ago, he is impressive and probably movie "peak" human but he is not on Bucky or Cap's level at all.

In a sword fight he definitely is.

We never saw Cap or Bucky sword fight so that claim makes no sense.

Plus Hector held his own against Achilles for a while in a sword fight and he is no where near as strong or fast as Cap or Bucky.

I mean look at the Knife fight posted on this thread. That is far more impressive combat speed/skill than anything shown in Troy.

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@man_of_miracles: We saw Batroc hold his own against Cap for a while too, he wasn't superhuman but a skilled martial artist.

Winter Soldier's brief skill display with the knife wasn't as impressive as all Achilles did in that movie, I give him credit for taking blows by Cap and took the shield from him, Achilles took the spear away from Hector just like that, the elbow he passed through while both with shields and swords wasn't bad either and he has shown how comfortable he is with 2 swords in the beach battle where he does that spinning sword throw.

Now I remember WS kicking someone in the air so I suppose it's safe to say he might be some what enhanced although probably not the same as Cap, this is a knives vs swords fight and we know what the more ranged weapon is. You think one hit from WS might turn things around?

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the MCU Winter solider IS a super solider. He was given Hydras version of the serum. Combine that with his metal arm that has a 1000 volt taser u get super stomp. lock da thread.

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@man_of_miracles: We saw Batroc hold his own against Cap for a while too, he wasn't superhuman but a skilled martial artist.

Winter Soldier's brief skill display with the knife wasn't as impressive as all Achilles did in that movie, I give him credit for taking blows by Cap and took the shield from him, Achilles took the spear away from Hector just like that, the elbow he passed through while both with shields and swords wasn't bad either and he has shown how comfortable he is with 2 swords in the beach battle where he does that spinning sword throw.

Now I remember WS kicking someone in the air so I suppose it's safe to say he might be some what enhanced although probably not the same as Cap, this is a knives vs swords fight and we know what the more ranged weapon is. You think one hit from WS might turn things around?

If you watch the movie again Cap one shots Batroc after he gets serious. Literally after Cap stops using his shield Batroc doesn't hit him one single time. I am not disagreeing that Achilles is somewhat enhanced, but against a guy who can rip doors off of cars I doubt it matters.

WS is definitely enhanced, just not to the level of Cap. Not only is he knocking people several feet when he hits them but he jumped 20+ feet of a bridge and crushed a car roof with no assistance.

Yes I think one hit from that WS's arm and Achilles is done for.

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I'm going to go with Achilles for the slight majority here. Mainly because this is a fight with swords/knives. I think Bucky is physically stronger than Achilles and has better strength feats tho. If Bucky got his hands on Achilles, it'd be over. That said Achilles was extremely skilled in short sword(s) play and he could strike a killing slash or blow on Bucky before Buck could get close enough to strike with his knife....imho. All in all this would be a helluva fight, but going with Achilles 5.5-6/10

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@i_like_swords: by default achilles, for he can not be hit due to being dipped in the lake of styx. Either bucky will have to have prior knowledge of this or it would have to be removed.

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@i_like_swords: Could of sworn thats why he wasn't touched in the films i believe they stuck with that, just fought to add in the fact that gods were also battling in the battle of troy, if not prolly bucky due to the metal arm. I feel that is a huge advantage for him. This could change if the swords are also unbreakable which i'm not entirely sure from then on.

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#50  Edited By ParagonNate

@i_like_swords:

Bucky was definitely enhanced, feats like jumping from the bridge and crushing a car with out taking any damage, kicking a shield agent once and sending him flying through the air into a turbine engine, similar to Cap kicking one of the mercenaries on the ship and sending him flying. He may not be at Cap's level of enhancement but he was certainly above people like MCU Black Widow, Falcon, Hawkeye etc. Then you have his cybernetic arm which rips off car doors with no sign of effort and cracks concrete.

I don't recall Achilles' mother predicting his future, I remember a scene by the water with her collecting sea shells (to make a necklace?) but I always took her 'prediction' as more of a good old human hunch rather than true divination. Then again it has been the better part of a decade since I've seen the whole movie so I may just not be remembering correctly. I always took Achilles in the movie as just being an amazingly skilled fighter, so much so that he hadn't ever actually been hit, or at least no one has seen him hit. Which gave rise to stories among other soldiers that he was 'favored by the gods' which then lead to people assuming that there must be something more to him than just a mere man. Culminating at the end of the film with his ally's finding him dead with the only immediate sign of injury being the arrow in his heel, leading them to believe that his heel had been his one weak spot. I always thought the movie was showing a 'realistic' way all those myths started as opposed to it saying that the myths were 'true'.

I would also question that the man who threw the spear Achilles blocked (forget his name atm) was also superhuman. I mean John McClain survives and does tons of stuff that humans shouldn't be able to do yet he is supposedly 'normal'. Hollywood does that kind of stuff all the time, I don't think it matters for the fight just thought I'd put my two cents in on that.