Accelerator Vs Goku

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RanaProGamer

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@zgtfreak: No, suffocation equals death in seconds. Goku and Beerus fought in the stratosphere, most likely the mesosphere which has Oxygen but just less density. Earth gets destroyed, so does the atmosphere.

Also, Goku let up his guard just after hearing the bullet get fired so his guard wasn't completely up. Its like if I tried to land a punch on you from behind but before my fist could reach you, you hear it and just put up your hand to try and block it, the block wouldn't be that strong compared to if I punched you head on and you put up your hand to block with more strength.

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zgtfreak

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#302  Edited By zgtfreak

@ranaprogamer: Either you accept that Vegeta died to a planet explosion, or you accept that no one in the series is lightspeed (i.e couldn't save Vegeta and couldn't go to another planet in time).

Even if he was semi-guarding, that is an awful feat.

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@shintoki: You are the best example of strawman arguments. Using a Gag Feat from Dragon Ball Manga back when it was never that serious in contradiction to where Whis clearly states that Frieza, who is weaker at that point than Vegeta and Goku, can survive in space while Vegeta can't. Not once was it stated that Vegeta died because of the explosion. Nothing about Frieza survivng the explosion of Namek was ever retconned. The fight of Beerus and Goku was stated to be in the outer stratosphere. I guess you never watched/readed DB in any way other than to debate against it. You talking mad bs dude:

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Funny, Using Dyspo where it was never stated how much faster than light he was to argue against Goku being LS and using Namek saga Goku for speed is hilarious. Plus the same Dyspo gave Champa a hard time following him. Going toe to toe against Beerus who passes through Nebulas and goes into a galaxy in 2,5 min, Gotenks taking 4-5 rounds far outside of the stratosphere and taking a nap in 30 min, Cell reacting to a Kamehameha who went to outer space in sec is proof enough of them being at least relativistic to LS from Cell to Buu saga and far above in DBS.

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Beerus and Champas fight in the manga destroyed moons and planets by flying through it, Beerus finger tapped half a planet away in the very start of DBS and Goku had punches strong enough to equal those. AoE doesn't translate to Attack Potency. So how is Gokus best feat in punching mountain level?

And let's see what you never countered. Enegery based attacks. It doesn't matter if they have vectors in it or not. What i want to see from you is if Accelerator ever countered something that goes above planet level which are earth sized. Because if not Frieza in his first Form has more than enough to put him down. Destroying planet Vegeta which has 10x more gravity meaning that it is either a large planet in size or has massive densitiy.

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You using DB manga gag scans, scenes from the Namek saga and using your headcanon to get a argument down for you. This is the worst kind of argument. It's like using Naruto part 1 feats for EOS Naruto. BS in any given way. If you have a feat, any feat, without downplaying Goku by using this ignorant way of debate, that Accelerator has to counter or effect someone who is far superior in all stats i will admit that Goku loses. If you come back with those downplaying arguments i won't take you serious at all and not answer again. Please show me how Accelerator countered someone with LS+ speed, planet+ physicals and at least solar system+ level energy manipulation or heck just show me a fight where he was against someone on that level. If you can i will rethink if you can't all you talking about is NLF because his abilities never encountered someone far above him.

So if you calling them for years Gokutards, how come you have a new account now? And if you were never flagged because of that there is a possibility that you never got a warning or a ban.

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@zgtfreak: check the first video on my post and see what Whis says about Frieza and why he survived and Vegeta didn't

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#305  Edited By Shintoki

@ranaprogamer said:

@shintoki: You do realize that those screenshots you are showing are from a filler episode, we can't treat that as canon at all since Frieza surviving Namek blowing up gives out way more heat than the core of the Earth.

Also, Goku is light speed, him going around planet Namek in 28 seconds was only in his base form. Also, you clearly made a mistake about multipliers, you do realize that when Goku fought against Vegeta he wasn't even fast enough to hit him yet using Kaio Ken increased that and was able to land hits on Vegeta that was actually hurting him. So no, his physical stats do increase as physical stats are part of power levels. This is also stated in many wikis, so I'll just copy and paste their definitions of power levels.

The actual term "Power Level" usually refers to readings produced by scouters, which are sensory devices used by Frieza's crew that detect a person's ki. The reading is converted into numbers of an unspecified unit, and the resulting number is the "Power Level", or an estimation of that person's physical capability. Also, Goku's travel feat doesn't have anything to do with his combat speed so you cant use his travel speed and make that his top speed that's plain out wrong.

We can scale him off of Raditz who was able to dodge the special beam cannon which is easily faster than the attack he used to bust the moon, but since we don't know how much the difference is between the speed of the moon busting attack and the Special Beam Cannon, I'm gonna lowball and say that the attacks have the same speed. So Piccolo's Moon busting attack took 3 seconds to reach the moon and light can travel from the Moon to the earth in 1.3 seconds and Raditz dodged that attack meaning Goku would only have to be 2.3x faster than that to be the speed of light which he easily attained using Kaio Ken times 3. So we can easily assume that Goku was faster than light speed in the Saiyan Saga. Using the SSJ multiplier would easily make Goku 50x times faster than light speed. This is assuming that he hasn't gotten any stronger in Base Form which is wrong for many reasons as he trains to make his base form stronger so that his multiplier could stack up from his base form, thus why we almost never see Goku train in SSJ forms. This is why we saw that base Goku was easily destroying Final Form Frieza in Ressurection of F. Also to use Dyspo as an example is not right since it was stated that through countless battles he surpassed sound and light meaning it he was already FTL before the Tournament Of Power and by how much FTL is unknown.

Also, there are many feats in the first Dragon Ball which has been retconned in DBZ such as that feat in which Kid Goku went to the moon and came back without having any problems for breathing and then seen in DBZ being drowned by Frieza under water for few seconds and he starts to suffocate. It also retconned Kid Goku tanking bullets with his guard down when a rusty Adult Goku who had his guard down got grazed by a bullet.

Also, Goku and Vegeta were already Planet Level in the Saiyan Saga. The databooks confirmed that Vegeta was going to destroy the Earth with the Big Bang Attack. So the fact that Goku's Kamehameha wave was stronger than Vegeta and it did hit Vegeta and Vegeta survived proving that Vegeta already had Planet Level durability so to say that his durability as an SSB is only Planet Level is very wrong and most likely an outlier seeing that he was takings hits from Golden Frieza who is easily Multi-Galaxy Level seeing how he was matching Goku's strength and Goku was already Multi-Galaxy Level in Battle Of Gods Arc when his fight with Beerus shook the universe which was confirmed by the Kaio Shins. Vegeta died due to suffocation, Goku and Beerus were still in the stratosphere while fighting so he could at least breathe even with very less air. Earth got destroyed along with the stratosphere, no air to breathe, Vegeta died, a beat up and Final Form Frieza survived due to his race being able to breathe in space. End of story.

Also, mastered SSJ is 10x stronger than the first time Goku went SSJ which is why the SSJ he uses now is Mastered SSJ cuz there is no need to use the Grades.

then let me read you a new story

which one?

because manga is off limits lad

if it is the DBS TV scene then no, since the manga and TV are separate canon and both are canon

Freiza was revived as a cyborg

the scene of him survivng in space is a filler < using this means you are ignoring the canon

https://www.viz.com/dragon-ball

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http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/databook/

I specifically stated that they are battle power/ki not power level multipliers for the SS forms

Ki is what enchance/alter their body not the form itself

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/chozenshu-1-we-asked-akira-toriyama-2013/

There are physical limits to the strength of the body itself, so in order to overcome that barrier, it’s necessary to increase your “ki”. Normally, the more you increase your ki, the harder it is to control, so ki control is also important.

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official numbers

Your opinion of what number the SS grade 2 should be has a term: headcanon < something you cant use as an argument if you are gonna choose to ignore goku/cell explanation at why SS Grade 2 is useless and primative compared to SS mastered and this might shock you lad but

Mastered SS is just a fan term for SS full power/Grade 4 < it being full power does not change multiplier to 500x

Goku: “First, this is my regular state. This is Super Saiyan. Then this is what I showed your before, a Super Saiyan that has surpassed Super Saiyan…’Super Saiyan 2’, you could call it. And so… This…Ev-even further surpasses that… …This is Super Saiyan 3. Sorry that took so long. I’m still not used to this transformation.”

SS 3 > SS2 > SS mastered/full power > SS Grade III/2 > SS

if it was the form that multiply their physical stats then naturally Goku tail as an Oozaru would be 200 times stronger than of a bone of a human and Puaru would not be able to cut his tail as a regular scissor

theory debunked<

and let alone vegeta because that basically sums up the point: Ki Multiplification =/= Physical stat Multiplification.....sounds like a confusion between battle powers and power levels

...........and i called it......they are not called power levels, power levels are a DUB thing< Dubism at its finest

battle powers =/= power levels

they are called Battle Powers, something the scanner give a number to when analyzed whether the thing is a robot or a creature with ki hence why it analyze animals/regular humans/robots

____________________________________

or are you telling me general blue is a moon buster because he has the same battle power as roshi?

ABC logic does not work or are you telling me that goku/Piccolo daiomo is a moon buster because he beat roshi

read up what an appeal to authority is

if you quote a fan wiki then then you conceded pretty much since you are appealing to authority by linking fan wikis rather than backing your argument with scans

concession accepted and use a source with scans or concession

__________________________________________

what a joke!

Surviving lack of air =/= having your lumps rupture from being over fulled from water < false equivalence

saiyans are naturally 20 times stronger than the average humans because of their home planet gravtiy < it was not a retcon

goku was vulnerable to drowning/temperature/toxic air since early DB < his only feat is surviving lack of air < it was not a retcon

shock the universe = it was beerus and that Goku using SSG ritual which was a one time thing and the shockwaves are only Multi planet level < as they only destroyed a planet/meteroids

facepalm, the scans show that they can survive in space < baradock was far from the stratosphere of planet vegeta and so was goku when fighting beerus

vegeta could have easily made a force field around him and waited for whis and goku to rescue him lad if the temperature of the explosion wouldnt have killed him lad

you cannot breath in space < idiotic

be my guest and ignore everything i posted and repeat yourself or scan your arguments/concede when you dont have it

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Shintoki

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@zgtfreak: check the first video on my post and see what Whis says about Frieza and why he survived and Vegeta didn't

Feats > statements

feats or it didnt happen

how about you check my multiple scans showing why he didnt survive the planet instead?

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@shintoki: I gave you on my counter argument a lot of evidence that saiyans can't survive in space. Freiza weaker, cut in half, without Ki survived Namek exploding and while drained out of Ki survived the earth blowing up. Ki amount = stats. Vegeta with more Ki is stronger than Frieza, more durable. So there is a reason why Whis says that Frieza is certanily alive and Vegeta isn't right after that Beerus says that Friezas species can survive implying that Saiyans can't. You have two feats with Frieza or you gonna tell me Namek Saga half dead Frieza > SSB Vegeta?

Your scans mostly play out on the stratosphere and Bardocks fight isn't even canon so god knows how it will play out in the next movie.

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#308  Edited By Shintoki

@kratosx64x said:

@shintoki: I gave you on my counter argument a lot of evidence that saiyans can't survive in space. Freiza weaker, cut in half, without Ki survived Namek exploding and while drained out of Ki survived the earth blowing up. Ki amount = stats. Vegeta with more Ki is stronger than Frieza, more durable. So there is a reason why Whis says that Frieza is certanily alive and Vegeta isn't right after that Beerus says that Friezas species can survive implying that Saiyans can't. You have two feats with Frieza or you gonna tell me Namek Saga half dead Frieza > SSB Vegeta?

Your scans mostly play out on the stratosphere and Bardocks fight isn't even canon so god knows how it will play out in the next movie.

im writing and that might shock you but it takes time to respond to long discussions

North kaio confirmed frieza was dead once goku blasted him to the underground and he was never seen again till he came as a cyborg<

is that good enough lad?

DBS TV version is outside of the stratosphere lad <

the rabbit use magic so its not weird for him to survive in the moon

saying a scene from the manga is not canon< ok there lad

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#309  Edited By Shintoki

@ranaprogamer said:

@zgtfreak: No, suffocation equals death in seconds. Goku and Beerus fought in the stratosphere, most likely the mesosphere which has Oxygen but just less density. Earth gets destroyed, so does the atmosphere.

Also, Goku let up his guard just after hearing the bullet get fired so his guard wasn't completely up. Its like if I tried to land a punch on you from behind but before my fist could reach you, you hear it and just put up your hand to try and block it, the block wouldn't be that strong compared to if I punched you head on and you put up your hand to block with more strength.

suffocation/sʌfəˈkeɪʃ(ə)n/noun

the state or process of dying from being deprived of air or unable to breathe.

like stated, saiyans are fine with lack of air

the stratosphere scene was a manga thing not a DBS TV thing which is still valid

and you still not account for goku going to the moon/barodck fighting in space

goku wont get that hurt whether he guards or not since his body naturally is made to be 20 times stronger than a human lad

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RanaProGamer

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@zgtfreak: Either you accept that Vegeta died due to suffocation (he’s survived Planet Level attacks many times in DBZ) or accept that Goku and Vegeta were lightspeed in the Saiyan Saga (are way faster than Raditz who dodged the special beam cannon which is similar to a weaker blast he used to blow up the moon in 3 seconds).

Screw it, go ahead and say he got grazed by bullet, that’s no where near his top durability.

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Goku wins.

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Shintoki

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@zgtfreak: Either you accept that Vegeta died due to suffocation (he’s survived Planet Level attacks many times in DBZ) or accept that Goku and Vegeta were lightspeed in the Saiyan Saga (are way faster than Raditz who dodged the special beam cannon which is similar to a weaker blast he used to blow up the moon in 3 seconds).

Screw it, go ahead and say he got grazed by bullet, that’s no where near his top durability.

show one scene of him surviving a planetary explosion otherwise headcanon/false equivalence

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@shintoki: Really? You think that the only way to prove that Vegeta has Planetary Level durability was by showing him survive a Planet explosion even though he is way above that using Attack Potency which I doubt you even know.

No Caption Provided

His Big Bang Attack was going to destroy the Earth.

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Just using Kaio Ken 3x was able to allow Goku to match the attack.

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Goku uses Kaio Ken 4x and overpowers Vegeta's Planet Busting attack.

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Goku states Vegeta survived the Kamehameha

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Vegeta shows in this page that the Kamehameha doesn't even knock him out and just moves out of the way. So Vegeta easily has Planet Level durability.

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@shintoki:

im writing and that might shock you but it takes time to respond to long discussions

No problem at all I'll wait.

North kaio confirmed frieza was dead once goku blasted him to the underground and he was never seen again till he came as a cyborg<

He was not death at all. I have never seens anywhere that he was brought back as cyborg. His missing living parts just got restored with mechanical that is why he is called Mecha Frieza. Plus King Kai thought Goku died to there but he didn't so he was wrong on both wasn't he? And let's see what the manga says about that:

is that good enough lad?

DBS TV version is outside of the stratosphere lad <

No it is not. If it was outside of the stratosphere would there be any reason why Goku and Beerus didn't fought accros the Solar System like Beerus and Champa did in the manga? There is only one reason why Saiyans are never shown outside of the reach of a planet. They. Can't. Survive. In. Space.

Even in Real life this looks exactly like this when you are in the stratosphere.

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the rabbit use magic so its not weird for him to survive in the moon

The Rabbit uses Magic ok. What about the regular rabbits right next to them? Or the two humans? Heck just above the same picture there is the explanation of the gag reference with the cultural difference of western and japanese.

saying a scene from the manga is not canon< ok there lad

The scene where he just flies there like Felix Baumgartner in real life? That is canon. Anything else about the fight is not.

And i still need you to tell me how a beaten up Frieza in DBS survived the explosion while a full powered SSB Vegeta couldn't? So is Frieza with less Ki more durable than Vegeta?

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#316  Edited By zgtfreak

@kratosx64x: @ranaprogamer Hypersonic DBS characters it is then, considering no one could save him in time and Vegeta himself couldn't escape. DBS rectons DBZ feats.

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@zgtfreak: Judging from the size of the explosion, I doubt anyone could've found Vegeta. Notice that just after the planet exploded, Whis stated that everyone died and Frieza survived just by sensing their ki. There is no way his body couldn't be knocked away so far by that explosion. Also even if he got hurt by the Planet Level Explosion, it most likely knocked the air out of him meaning he died of suffocation like how Beerus knocked the air out of Goku and nearly killed him by drowning.

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@zgtfreak: 1. he got caught of guard meaning he had no time to do anything but being suprised. 2. As soon as the explosion happened his body would be knocked away. 3. Without catching air he suffocated the second he would be in space. 4. Whis had the ability to reverse time so why would he waist energy saving Vegeta when he can teach Goku and Vegeta a lesson about bein relaxed and still combat ready like he did in their training session.

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zgtfreak

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@ranaprogamer: Vegeta getting damaged by a planet exploding at all is awful. Vegeta himself should've rebounded instantly and flew to Namek (or any oxygen planet) if he was FTL; he even could've flew to Whis's ki shield instantly if he was FTL.

@kratosx64x So DBS character reaction and travel speed while even a tiny bit surprised = Professor X in a wheelchair level.

Any other character could've saved him (Goku via IT) instantly before Whis even mentioned time reversal.

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@zgtfreak: So you pick up 2 things that i said and just let the rest stay there like it is. Vegeta can't survive in space in any given way. Why would anyone go out and search a massive area where you need to find a dead body if you yourself can't survive in space? Especially if this body can be floating around anywhere because of the explosion? This wouldn't make any sense whatsoever. Just look at the size of said explosion and look how far away they are.

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Vegeta had the same problem against Magetta with sinking oxygen he barely could fly, was sweating all over. Saiyans, just like Humans, need a certain amount of oxygen just to survive let alone fly at full speed. How is Vegeta gonna fly away when he is dying because of the lack of oxygen?

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#321  Edited By heknorotra

@kratosx64x: Sooooooooooo vegeta didn't last even 1 second in space? A human can survive 15 seconds in space. Humans> Saiyans?

The logical answer is 'he died in the explosion' since there was no trace of his body.

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#322 emperorthanos-  Moderator  Online

@kratosx64x: Sooooooooooo vegeta didn't last even 1 second in space? A human can survive 15 seconds in space. Humans> Saiyans?

The logical answer is 'he died in the explosion' since there was no trace of his body.

Not seeing the body doesn't mean there was no trace of it. We didn't see Frieza's body either but we were told he survived.

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@heknorotra: So you gonna tell me your headcanon is that Vegeta in SSB died from a planetary explosion while beaten up Frieza survived the same explosion while it is stated over and over again that Saiyans can't survive in Space, Frieza surviving the expolosion of Namek while out of Ki and cut through half and Whis stating that Frieza survived because he can survive in space while Vegeta can't? It is not like that Vegeta in the Buu saga deflected Buus Planetary Ki Blast with a small Ki blast of his own, that Goku in his base form destroyed a Ki attack of Beerus with his bare hands an atack that was clearly able to destroy earth. None of these things ever was in the series just the things you guys wanna see and use. Strawman fallacy nothing else. You guys all use Stawman fallacy for Goku and No limit Fallacy for Accelerator just to see him win.

idk what to say to you guys anymore. You are hanging on one slim chance of Vegeta or Goku being not above planetary level in durability and ignoring everything else. This is a waste of time from this point on.

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#324  Edited By heknorotra

@kratosx64x said:

@heknorotra: So you gonna tell me your headcanon is that Vegeta in SSB died from a planetary explosion while beaten up Frieza survived the same explosion while it is stated over and over again that Saiyans can't survive in Space, Frieza surviving the expolosion of Namek while out of Ki and cut through half and Whis stating that Frieza survived because he can survive in space while Vegeta can't?

A headcanon would be "He died 1 second after the planet exploded because there was no space". You just can't accept the fact that a character as strong as an SSB can be less than planetary level.

If he was human he would have 15 seconds before he loses consciousness. Whis couldn't save him? If he is like humans and whis is MFTL++++++++++++++To-the-infinite+++++++++++ he could easily have saved him just like he saved the rest of the persons who were nearby him.

Frieza didn't survive the explosion of namek in the anime. The scene were he floating in outer space is a filler scene. In the mangas he was revived into a cyborg. And he wasn't out of ki in namek. Goku gave him half of his ki.

It is not like that Vegeta in the Buu saga deflected Buus Planetary Ki Blast with a small Ki blast of his own, that Goku in his base form destroyed a Ki attack of Beerus with his bare hands an atack that was clearly able to destroy earth. None of these things ever was in the series just the things you guys wanna see and use. Strawman fallacy nothing else. You guys all use Stawman fallacy for Goku and No limit Fallacy for Accelerator just to see him win.

idk what to say to you guys anymore. You are hanging on one slim chance of Vegeta or Goku being not above planetary level in durability and ignoring everything else. This is a waste of time from this point on.

1- Vegeta never deflected a single planet busting ki attack against buu

2- You are implying that every ki blast launched by buu is planet buster. The ground and the mountains in the backgrounds begs to differ

3- Goku absorbed the enrgy, he didn't withstand it. Even beerus was surprised he asked "how did you do that?" Goku replied "i don't know"

Should i remind how dbz characters destroys a planet? By core busting. even frieza in dbs destroyed the planet within it's core as you can see the lava erupting from everywhere and the planet exploding from the center. The only exception is Hakai

Also saiyans are weak against heat:

1- https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/37144/3335814-flame+thrower.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/37144/3335826-thunder1.jpg

2-Several times, in DBS, we've seen goku sweating because he was working under the sun

3-Goku can't tolerate volcano's lava:

https://youtu.be/vLv6PSJNaLo?t=112

Frieza knows it and goku damn sure knows it.

Goku had to transform in ssj and surround himself with an invisible aura to protect himself from the magma

4-Goku and Vegeta are worried about the steam ejected by buu https://youtu.be/TZgyYB3C5Lk?t=56

5-Goku declares, in episode 68 of dbs, that he would die if he goes into earth core. he had to wear a special suit made by bulma to protect himself:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111304330/5555711-6705613815-Yoeao.png

https://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111304330/5555712-5313854964-RoDNt.png

https://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111304330/5555713-7043124381-FiMxv.png

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111304330/5555714-7546439726-aDJil.png

https://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111304330/5555715-7536726850-AyjHL.png

Frieza's race wasn't stated to be weak against it.

Inb4 "kamehameha produces high temperature"

6-Vegeta was sweating like crazy when he fought Mageta

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And you are still gonna explain how did vegeta die 1 second after earth was destroyed.

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ReaperDewpider

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Goku should take this fairly easily.

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Cramem

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Huge spite.

Accelerator murder stomps goku and every other Z character with 0 difficulty. They won't be able to hurt him.

Every attack would be redirected directly at them.

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ReaperDewpider

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If it's DB Super Goku at his strongest, I think he could take out Accelerator fairly easily.

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heknorotra

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#328  Edited By heknorotra
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heknorotra

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#330  Edited By heknorotra

@reaperdewpider said:

@heknorotra: Maybe, maybe not. Who knows?

Feats speaks for themselves.

Let's see.

Can goku hit him?

That boy could alter all vectors be they motion, heat, or electricity, so he would not be injured even if he were directly hit by that last resort of a nuclear missile. He would just reflect the shockwave that would blow everything way, the heat that would scorch everything, and the neutrons and radiation that would kill everything. He was Accelerator, Academy Cityes strongest Level 5.

Can goku teleport him away?

When he reflected teleportation powers, a strange phenomenon occurred in the 3 dimensional world, but this had felt entirely different.

Can goku hurt him by screaming very loud?

Accelerator's 'redirection' won't be interrupted even when sleeping. Sometimes, he will even 'redirect' the sound to sleep better, and at that moment, nothing will wake Accelerator up.

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ReaperDewpider

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#332  Edited By heknorotra

@reaperdewpider:

Yeah, i know. I never doubted that. I wasn't expecting to convince you otherwise.

I just posted Accelerator's reflecting powers for anyone who says "Goku wins because he can punch hard or throw powerful ki blasts"

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zgtfreak

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@kratosx64x: Goku can easily cover that range via sensing and IT, yet he didn't because Vegeta died instantly. If they were LS, then they could cover the entire radius of the explosion easily and find him in a literal second, unless you're trying to argue Vegeta got blown out of the solar system, or that he can't even last as long as a human in space.

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#334  Edited By ChaosKnight75

@shintoki said:

@chaosknight75: equivalent: thinking fiction rocks are not the same as real life rocks

.....what are you even doing here?

Except Kakine/Accelerator's Dark Matter has nothing to do with Dark Matter as it's defined in real life. They just have the same name and no other relation

Dark Matter in real life: A yet undefined and nor fully understood form of matter believed to make up most of the universe that plays a big part in the way things like galaxies formed

Kakine's Dark Matter: Explicitly described as foreign matter not from anywhere in this universe but form another world altogether and completely defying all known laws of physics of this world because of it. Implied to be angelic power like Telesma as well.

So things like the weight of Dark Matter in real life or anything else to quantify it don't apply since it has nothing to do with actual Dark Matter.

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ReaperDewpider

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@heknorotra: I'm not suggesting that Goku can simply win in the matter you quoted, though I will say my knowledge on Index is limited somewhat. I do have some concerns about how the abilities of both characters will interact and I just don't think it's so clear-cut and blanket "Accelerator can just No Sell Goku because he did X". You can say that any character who can block being disintegrated can simply No Sell Tatsuya Shiba's powers simply because someone tried to disintegrate that character in his home franchise and that character was unaffected, but is that really the case that this feat means the character is unaffected by Tatsuya's Decomposition then?

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@heknorotra: Ok you start to get on my nerves:

A headcanon would be "He died 1 second after the planet exploded because there was no space". You just can't accept the fact that a character as strong as an SSB can be less than planetary level.

If he was human he would have 15 seconds before he loses consciousness. Whis couldn't save him? If he is like humans and whis is MFTL++++++++++++++To-the-infinite+++++++++++ he could easily have saved him just like he saved the rest of the persons who were nearby him.

Frieza didn't survive the explosion of namek in the anime. The scene were he floating in outer space is a filler scene. In the mangas he was revived into a cyborg. And he wasn't out of ki in namek. Goku gave him half of his ki.

Noone ever said that he died 1 sec after the explosion to begin with. And AT is not a scientist to know how long humans can survive in space. He just says this race can do this and this race can't do the same thing. If it was because the explosion was to much for Vegeta or because Vegeta can't survive the heat generated by the explosion wouldn't the dialog suggest that? Why is the only thing that was talked about how Frieza can survive in space and Vegeta can't? Why was that an issue with Frieza and Goku back in the Namek Saga? A crazy idea but maybe, just maybe it is because SAIYANS CAN'T SURVIVE IN SPACE WHILE FRIEZAS RACE CAN!

Whis could have saved him of course but like i said before he had the time rewind ability and he needed Goku and Vegeta to learn a lesson. This was the first build up to this scene when Whis stated that Goku is to relaxed and Vegeta to stiff to react faster in certain situations. Goku got shot by a ray gun for powering down into his base because he was too relaxed and Vegeta died because he couldn't react to Frieza fast enough for being to stiff and on edge.

Goku never gave him half of his Ki. He gave him some to survive but after his sneak attack Goku pretty much K.Oed him with his final attack. Being k.oed in DB is running out of Ki or not having any after an attack.

Go check out the post i did before in this topic and see how Vegeta clearly remarks that "Kakarot is too soft after all, he didn't kill Frieza". He was NEVER revived as a cyborg he just got some mechanical parts as replacement for his missing body parts. How do you guys come up with this idea that he was revived as a cyborg? He has his wounds from the battle all over his body and the best part is if Friezas army had this technology to revive fallen warriors why wouldn't they revive other warriors as cyborgs like the Ginyu force or Zarbon and Dodoria? And still i want to know the reason why Frieza, completely beaten up survived the same explosion (nevermind i saw your ridiculous claim that Friezas race can endure heat but the saiyans can't).

2- You are implying that every ki blast launched by buu is planet buster. The ground and the mountains in the backgrounds begs to differ

3- Goku absorbed the enrgy, he didn't withstand it. Even beerus was surprised he asked "how did you do that?" Goku replied "i don't know"

Should i remind how dbz characters destroys a planet? By core busting. even frieza in dbs destroyed the planet within it's core as you can see the lava erupting from everywhere and the planet exploding from the center. The only exception is Hakai

Loading Video...

This is absorbing? Then the term did change big time.

Ah yeah and that time when Beerus destoyed a planet with a tiny little Ki ball, or how in the new movie which is canon Frieza never destroyed the core of Vegeta but just destroyed it with a normal attack. Or how Buu destroyed several planets with ease without core busting. Yeah all characters are core busters in DB none have ever destroyed a planet in a different way. Never seen that in DB ever.

Also saiyans are weak against heat:

1- https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/37144/3335814-flame+thrower.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/37144/3335826-thunder1.jpg

Using a weaker Goku to demonstrate a weakness against fire while they can whitstand disintegrating attacks with ease later on is a perfect way to go into an argument.

2-Several times, in DBS, we've seen goku sweating because he was working under the sun

Like they always do while working or training. Nothing new there. Just a showing of effort. Moving on

3-Goku can't tolerate volcano's lava:

https://youtu.be/vLv6PSJNaLo?t=112

Frieza knows it and goku damn sure knows it.

Goku had to transform in ssj and surround himself with an invisible aura to protect himself from the magma

Good so they can cover their bodies to withstand magma. So why wouldn't they all just do that when a planet gets destroyed and fly away with realtive ease? Or heck why Doesn't Goku just teleport away when they can withstand heat with Ki barriers or auras? Right, BECAUSE THEY CAN'T SURVIVE IN SPACE. If this was the case they would protect themselves when Buu destroyed the planet and not try to run away from it.

4-Goku and Vegeta are worried about the steam ejected by buu https://youtu.be/TZgyYB3C5Lk?t=56

Damn none of your videos work but let me take a guess and say that it wasn't because of the heat but because of the rise in his Ki? Just a silly thought.

5-Goku declares, in episode 68 of dbs, that he would die if he goes into earth core. he had to wear a special suit made by bulma to protect himself:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111304330/5555711-6705613815-Yoeao.png

https://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111304330/5555712-5313854964-RoDNt.png

https://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111304330/5555713-7043124381-FiMxv.png

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111304330/5555714-7546439726-aDJil.png

https://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111304330/5555715-7536726850-AyjHL.png

Was there any point in the anime where he said that he can't survive because of the heat? Because all i can see is that he said "wouldn't i die there?" Newsflash: The earths core has little to none oxygen. Gokus suit looks more like an oxygen support than anything else. If it was for the heat why not let him breath without the suits air supply.

Frieza's race wasn't stated to be weak against it.

There was never ever a statement about how this race can endure heat and the other one can't. And just to take away your INB4 "Kamehameha produces high temperatures" Almost every Ki attack can disintigrate someone. Meaning that there is a lot of heat behind every Ki based attack. You can see how there is steam after their disintigration showing that there was enough heat to do so. And how they withstood heat in the ToP is another thing right. When explosions where going on all around. Or how Goku got shot with a rocket launcher and wasn't burnt away in early DB. Or how he withstood the heat of a drive point blank.

Inb4 "kamehameha produces high temperature"

6-Vegeta was sweating like crazy when he fought Mageta

Vegeta was having a rough time because of the change in AIR. It was clearly stated. And after Vegeta breaks the barrier he says that he can breath normally and has no trouble dealing with the heat. Funny isn't it?

Loading Video...

But the easiest part to take your argument apart is that in no media considering DB there was a debate about heat problems, explosion problems or their ability to withstand a planet blowing up. The only thing given by the author himself is that certain races can survive in the vacuum of space while others, especially saiyans can't. If this wouldn't be an issue AT would never put it into his work so often.

But let me get straight to the question than. You think accelerator wins when i am not mistaken you. Go ahead and show me one instance where he moves faster than these things here:

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Or him blocking an attack like this here:

Loading Video...

Frieza destroys a planet which is either much bigger or much denser than Earth with his attack. This is first form Frieza who is 2800x weaker than a SSJ1 Goku from the Namek Saga.

Because i checked all things out posted against Goku which are all easily debunked and seen not one argument to put Accelerator on this level of speed or DC and durability.

If i read through your answer on this without getting any solid answers i will not respond and waste my time any further. A lot of well known critiqual debaters on DB here are all saying Goku wins. This is not even a match. You guys using strawman arguments and NLF.

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@zgtfreak: Answered all of that with another post. I am getting tired of repeating myself.

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zgtfreak

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#338  Edited By zgtfreak

@kratosx64x: Answered all of that with another post. I am getting tired of repeating myself.

That's fine.

Whis could have saved him of course but like i said before he had the time rewind ability and he needed Goku and Vegeta to learn a lesson.

I don't care that Whis didn't want to save Vegeta; Goku and everyone else did, so they must've been below LS at that point since they couldn't save him in time.

Good so they can cover their bodies to withstand magma. So why wouldn't they all just do that when a planet gets destroyed and fly away with realtive ease? Or heck why Doesn't Goku just teleport away when they can withstand heat with Ki barriers or auras? Right, BECAUSE THEY CAN'T SURVIVE IN SPACE.

Or maybe they aren't fast enough to react to planet busting.

But let me get straight to the question than. You think accelerator wins when i am not mistaken you. Go ahead and show me one instance where he moves faster than these things here:

His defenses are automatic, meaning speed is irrelevant, and Goku has no way to bypass said defenses. Accelerator ignores the magnitude of an attack, making Goku's power irrelevant as well. It would be a NLF if his vector reflection counted power/magnitude, but it doesn't, meaning YOU are NLF'ing Goku's power by saying he's so strong that he ignores special abilities.

The rest is directed towards the other dude, so I'll ignore it.

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heknorotra

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#339  Edited By heknorotra

@kratosx64x:

Ok you start to get on my nerves:

That's how fanboys acts, they are easily trigered when someone says their favorite charactes isn't that strong.

"Noone ever said that he died 1 sec after the explosion to begin with."

He died automatickly after earth exploded

And AT is not a scientist to know how long humans can survive in space. He just says this race can do this and this race can't do the same thing. If it was because the explosion was to much for Vegeta or because Vegeta can't survive the heat generated by the explosion wouldn't the dialog suggest that? Why is the only thing that was talked about how Frieza can survive in space and Vegeta can't? Why was that an issue with Frieza and Goku back in the Namek Saga? A crazy idea but maybe, just maybe it is because SAIYANS CAN'T SURVIVE IN SPACE WHILE FRIEZAS RACE CAN!

Or maybe you are just misunderstanding toriyama's intention. What you are saying is total headcanon. Toriyama is not a scientist, but it was his intention that vegeta died by lack of oxygen he would have atleast made vegeta survive atleast 3 minutes. You don't need to be a scientist to know that a man can hold his breath more than 1S.

You are still gonna explain how did vegeta died instantly after the explosion. Nobody corpse was found.

Frieza race is more durable than saiyans race. Frieza survived being cut in half

Vegeta was never stated to be able to surviving the explosion of a planet. It's fan wank and stupid calcs. Most of the times saiyans were shown to have normal human durability when they are not focused enough.

The same case goes for zamasu

No Caption Provided

_________

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Even in the new dbs mangas, goku was knocked out by a ray gun

Whis could have saved him of course but like i said before he had the time rewind ability and he needed Goku and Vegeta

Headcanon. It was never stated and never implied

Go check out the post i did before in this topic and see how Vegeta clearly remarks that "Kakarot is too soft after all, he didn't kill Frieza". He was NEVER revived as a cyborg he just got some mechanical parts as replacement for his missing body parts. How do you guys come up with this idea that he was revived as a cyborg? He has his wounds from the battle all over his body and the best part is if Friezas army had this technology to revive fallen warriors why wouldn't they revive other warriors as cyborgs like the Ginyu force or Zarbon and Dodoria? And still i want to know the reason why Frieza, completely beaten up survived the same explosion (nevermind i saw your ridiculous claim that Friezas race can endure heat but the saiyans can't).

Are you asking to trying to make sense for DB. Even toriyama can't do that. This series is screwed, nothing makes sense, but no fans cares about this, they only care about "Aheuaheuaheu i wan't goku to be stronger and i want him to have a new hair color". It's the same as asking "Why doesn't goku wish his father back?", "Why did frieza's henchmen wished back frieza and not his father. His father should be superior to him".

Db was originally programed to stop with the frieza saga, but toei wanted to make more money out of it and forced toriyama to produce more episodes. Frieza was originally dead. But if we forget about this trivia. It proves something 'Statements are invalid' most of times they are hyperboles, and the rest, they are simply incorrect.

This is absorbing? Then the term did change big time.

Ah yeah and that time when Beerus destoyed a planet with a tiny little Ki ball, or how in the new movie which is canon Frieza never destroyed the core of Vegeta but just destroyed it with a normal attack. Or how Buu destroyed several planets with ease without core busting. Yeah all characters are core busters in DB none have ever destroyed a planet in a different way. Never seen that in DB ever.

Absorbing, dispel chose whatever terms you want. He didn't tank it. He lost consciousnous 5 seconds after receiving the attack, then he found the courage to wake up and absorbed the balst, as you can see it shrinking toward the center (where goku was)

Frieza destroyed the core. No need more explanation, you have all the graphics you need.

-Erupting lava like namek? Check

-Fissures all over the planet like namek? Check

-Planet exploding from the center like namek? Check

Using a weaker Goku to demonstrate a weakness against fire while they can whitstand disintegrating attacks with ease later on is a perfect way to go into an argument.

He never tanked an attack with high temperature. Don't make stuff up.

Like they always do while working or training. Nothing new there. Just a showing of effort. Moving on

And complaining about the temperature.

Good so they can cover their bodies to withstand magma. So why wouldn't they all just do that when a planet gets destroyed and fly away with realtive ease?

You are assuming that the ki barrier can tank extremely high temperature. No sir, no NLF. The barrier has limit. Even if we take the non canon version of broly, gohan thought he killed him by throwing him into lava, but surprised broly protected himself with a ki barrier similar to goku's.

Why would goku need a ki barrier to protect himself from the lava?

Or heck why Doesn't Goku just teleport away when they can withstand heat with Ki barriers or auras? Right, BECAUSE THEY CAN'T SURVIVE IN SPACE. If this was the case they would protect themselves when Buu destroyed the planet and not try to run away from it.

Remember when goku ran away from buu's attack and wanted to telport himself somewhere else but he couldn't because he didn't have enough time?

No Caption Provided

If he is planet level durability why did he ran away? He can't concentrate if he is stressed enough, just like the case here

Damn none of your videos work but let me take a guess and say that it wasn't because of the heat but because of the rise in his Ki? Just a silly thought.

You are failing at sarcasm. You are trying to compare something that makes sens with something that doesn't.

Was there any point in the anime where he said that he can't survive because of the heat? Because all i can see is that he said "wouldn't i die there?" Newsflash: The earths core has little to none oxygen. Gokus suit looks more like an oxygen support than anything else. If it was for the heat why not let him breath without the suits air supply.

XD you are funny.

Headcanon X 1000000000000000000

You just said that toriyama isn't a scientist, how would he know that? Oh right, because when it's suits your belief toriyama has some physics knowledge, but when it doesn't "ahuehuhuehuehu there is little to no oxygen there".

yeah, how can you say that toriyama is dumb enough to not know that a human can survivte 3 minutes without oxygen and the second after says "He knows that earth's core has oxygen"

Bulma specifically stated that her company can take it

Almost every Ki attack can disintigrate someone. Meaning that there is a lot of heat behind every Ki based attack. You can see how there is steam after their disintigration showing that there was enough heat to do so. And how they withstood heat in the ToP is another thing right. When explosions where going on all around. Or how Goku got shot with a rocket launcher and wasn't burnt away in early DB. Or how he withstood the heat of a drive point blank.

So no proof or statements that ki blast are actually heat technique? You could have saved your time and say "i don't know" or simply ignore it. You aren't supposed to make more head canon.

Goku survived the rocket launcher because he was protect by his suit:

No Caption Provided

"His clothes are burnt and now his butt is sticking right out"

Vegeta was having a rough time because of the change in AIR. It was clearly stated. And after Vegeta breaks the barrier he says that he can breath normally and has no trouble dealing with the heat. Funny isn't it?

Headcanon again. You don't sweat like that when there is little oxygen.

But the easiest part to take your argument apart is that in no media considering DB there was a debate about heat problems, explosion problems or their ability to withstand a planet blowing up. The only thing given by the author himself is that certain races can survive in the vacuum of space while others, especially saiyans can't. If this wouldn't be an issue AT would never put it into his work so often.

But let me get straight to the question than. You think accelerator wins when i am not mistaken you. Go ahead and show me one instance where he moves faster than these things here:

So you didn't even bother looking at the respect thread. Accelerator doesn't need to move faster than those thing, even though he can steal the power of attacks he receive.

Every attack thrown at him is reflected back.

He can easily shit on super gotenks. He circuled 5 times around the earth in 29 minutes. That's faaaaaaar from being lightspeed. If he was lightspeed he would have circuled 7,5 times around the earth in 1 second.

And accelerator can deflect lightspeed attacks

She released a lightning spear from it. The spear of purple electricity moved forward at the speed of light and held enough destructive force to knock someone unconscious. She did not think that it would act as a fatal blow. As long as it distracted him long enough for her to get away, that was enough. However, the lightning spear she had fired at the boy rebounded and struck her in her own chest.

Don't tell me you are from those who thinks that dbz characters are faster than light? XD

And you are missing something. Accelerator doesn't need to think of deflecting an attack to deflect it. All attacks are automatickly deflected from him

Even though the boy in front of the scope is a living human, when this trigger is pulled, the .50 caliber anti-tank bullets of this gun would rip through the sky at speeds of 1200 km/h [...] All twelve bullets fired should have been absorbed into the boy's back; that slender, wirelike body ought to have burst into tiny chunks and scattered. Right, that naturally should be the case. The next instant, the Metal Eater in the girl's hands explodes. The shells that made a direct hit rebound back. Almost like a video rewinding, the shells whose ballistics were reversed cleanly plunge nicely into the muzzle of the anti-tank rifle like a Kendama game, and the Metal Eater bursts from the inside into very small pieces.

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Shintoki

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#340  Edited By Shintoki

@ranaprogamer said:

@shintoki: Really? You think that the only way to prove that Vegeta has Planetary Level durability was by showing him survive a Planet explosion even though he is way above that using Attack Potency which I doubt you even know.

No Caption Provided

His Big Bang Attack was going to destroy the Earth.

No Caption Provided

Just using Kaio Ken 3x was able to allow Goku to match the attack.

No Caption Provided

Goku uses Kaio Ken 4x and overpowers Vegeta's Planet Busting attack.

No Caption Provided

Goku states Vegeta survived the Kamehameha

No Caption Provided

Vegeta shows in this page that the Kamehameha doesn't even knock him out and just moves out of the way. So Vegeta easily has Planet Level durability.

This might shock you but that guidebook is only restating what vegeta did

feats it didnt happen

not a daizenshuu/chozenshuu guidebook/databook = has nothing to do with akira toriyama = not canon

that was a spanish guidebook that came out as a special bonus with figurines if i recall, using it is a low effort arguments

lad

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RanaProGamer

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@zgtfreak: Yeah I’ve discussed with other people, we came to the conclusion that it was a plot hole that they didn’t save him even though they could. Plot holes happen you know.

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#342  Edited By RanaProGamer

@shintoki: Actually, the first picture I sent is multiple different data books stacked up on each, sorry for the confusion. The one that said that Vegeta has the power to destroy the Earth was actually from a canon databook. If you want I can send a separate page of the databook.

Also no, the Spanish guidebook does not come with the figurines, it’s a guidebook that actually has been translated from English to Spanish and approved by the creators of the original databook.

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#343  Edited By Shintoki

@shintoki:

im writing and that might shock you but it takes time to respond to long discussions

No problem at all I'll wait.

North kaio confirmed frieza was dead once goku blasted him to the underground and he was never seen again till he came as a cyborg<

He was not death at all. I have never seens anywhere that he was brought back as cyborg. His missing living parts just got restored with mechanical that is why he is called Mecha Frieza. Plus King Kai thought Goku died to there but he didn't so he was wrong on both wasn't he? And let's see what the manga says about that:

is that good enough lad?

DBS TV version is outside of the stratosphere lad <

No it is not. If it was outside of the stratosphere would there be any reason why Goku and Beerus didn't fought accros the Solar System like Beerus and Champa did in the manga? There is only one reason why Saiyans are never shown outside of the reach of a planet. They. Can't. Survive. In. Space.

Even in Real life this looks exactly like this when you are in the stratosphere.

Loading Video...

the rabbit use magic so its not weird for him to survive in the moon

The Rabbit uses Magic ok. What about the regular rabbits right next to them? Or the two humans? Heck just above the same picture there is the explanation of the gag reference with the cultural difference of western and japanese.

saying a scene from the manga is not canon< ok there lad

The scene where he just flies there like Felix Baumgartner in real life? That is canon. Anything else about the fight is not.

And i still need you to tell me how a beaten up Frieza in DBS survived the explosion while a full powered SSB Vegeta couldn't? So is Frieza with less Ki more durable than Vegeta?

@shintoki: You are the best example of strawman arguments. Using a Gag Feat from Dragon Ball Manga back when it was never that serious in contradiction to where Whis clearly states that Frieza, who is weaker at that point than Vegeta and Goku, can survive in space while Vegeta can't. Not once was it stated that Vegeta died because of the explosion. Nothing about Frieza survivng the explosion of Namek was ever retconned. The fight of Beerus and Goku was stated to be in the outer stratosphere. I guess you never watched/readed DB in any way other than to debate against it. You talking mad bs dude:

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Funny, Using Dyspo where it was never stated how much faster than light he was to argue against Goku being LS and using Namek saga Goku for speed is hilarious. Plus the same Dyspo gave Champa a hard time following him. Going toe to toe against Beerus who passes through Nebulas and goes into a galaxy in 2,5 min, Gotenks taking 4-5 rounds far outside of the stratosphere and taking a nap in 30 min, Cell reacting to a Kamehameha who went to outer space in sec is proof enough of them being at least relativistic to LS from Cell to Buu saga and far above in DBS.

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Beerus and Champas fight in the manga destroyed moons and planets by flying through it, Beerus finger tapped half a planet away in the very start of DBS and Goku had punches strong enough to equal those. AoE doesn't translate to Attack Potency. So how is Gokus best feat in punching mountain level?

And let's see what you never countered. Enegery based attacks. It doesn't matter if they have vectors in it or not. What i want to see from you is if Accelerator ever countered something that goes above planet level which are earth sized. Because if not Frieza in his first Form has more than enough to put him down. Destroying planet Vegeta which has 10x more gravity meaning that it is either a large planet in size or has massive densitiy.

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You using DB manga gag scans, scenes from the Namek saga and using your headcanon to get a argument down for you. This is the worst kind of argument. It's like using Naruto part 1 feats for EOS Naruto. BS in any given way. If you have a feat, any feat, without downplaying Goku by using this ignorant way of debate, that Accelerator has to counter or effect someone who is far superior in all stats i will admit that Goku loses. If you come back with those downplaying arguments i won't take you serious at all and not answer again. Please show me how Accelerator countered someone with LS+ speed, planet+ physicals and at least solar system+ level energy manipulation or heck just show me a fight where he was against someone on that level. If you can i will rethink if you can't all you talking about is NLF because his abilities never encountered someone far above him.

So if you calling them for years Gokutards, how come you have a new account now? And if you were never flagged because of that there is a possibility that you never got a warning or a ban.

In topic:

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deathstar, you are such an objectively pathetic for not reading the rules and realizing that this is a canon only, and not only that, but not knowing what you pity others for. truly sad, as for the others, explanation is above. < *he seem to ignore what i say*

DBZ is not a part of the battle setting sinec it's not canon to DBS or else i would have left the thread long time ago, anywho, Frieza died in the manga once goku blow him up let alone the planet, frieza even hesitated to blow up the planet in the manga

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Frieza runs to space to survive

filler = headcanon = concession

Kaio who observes over ALL north galaxies / can observe their fight from the afterlife confirmed that Frieza was dead

Frieza destroys plantary cores not planets a feat even roshi can do with moon busting feat

>claiming north kaio who is CONSTANTLY observing the North Galaxies be it when the fight is over or not / goku who was there to be wrong

..........you do realize the dude is constatly Observing ALL the GALAXIES in the North section of the UNIVERSE and he was specifically Focusing in Namek in that incident not only that but you also claim that GOKU who was there to be wrong as well who stated that the only reason frieza stayed alive cut in half was because of goku ki who he used against goku and was blasted to the underground alongside the planet explosion

......No :XD:! , North kaio/goku were not wrong , you were wrong

Freiza was never seen again till came back to Earth as a Cyborg and did you just try to Use his Return as a proof of him survivng namek?

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XD

______________________

Beerus vs Champa =/= Goku vs Beerus < false equivalence

NLF < just because saiyans can survive in space for a while does not mean that they can do it forever since goku went to the moon and took minutes to go/return we are going to go by that

same reason why they did not fight in space from the start

does not matter what it looks like from the stratosphere since we are talking about outside of the atmosphere itself

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_____Using Translator note < you sure got me.......rolling in the ground laughing that is < those are his assistants so dunno

_____https://www.damninteresting.com/outer-space-exposure/ learn what space exposure means <

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hate to break it you lad but is this actual view from the camera fixed in the ship as the fall was recorded by different camera angles with different definitions/zooms lad

_Baradock was far from planet vegeta and stating that his special is pointless since im using the manga which still contradict your argument

the other image speak for itself math wise

because he did not <

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DB was serious since the start and never lost that parody side of it < the only reason akira changed the art style < which you try to use as a transition in the theme/tone when it is not is because he found it difficult to draw the fights with the original style since he needed more realistic style than his original because the fights were getting tenser since Piccolo Daiomo Arc/saga

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Eng Subs are in there

you seem to forget that DB is a part of dr slump/kuririn broke the fourth wall by calling out toriyama with toribot appearing as an example lad

it is an explanation to the reference / goku feat is still valid

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Gotenks =/= Goku < Gotenks is outside of the earth atmosphere but be my guest and appeal to ignorance to avoid the fact that contradict your saiyans cannot survive in space argument

Namek feat is measurable < the others are not for goku

____________________________

..........XD what? , do you even know what a strawman is? it is an act of repositioning/changing another person argument < since when did I change your argument exacty? as far as i can remember, i tailed exactly your argument and offered a different approach to your argument that breaks it with OR

stating OR as an offer to a different approach is not a strawman lad

but it cannot be OR =/= so you are saying :not the actual arguments lad

____________________________

appeal to authority = since it was not stated then it is not there

correction: just because it was not stated does not mean it is not there

___________________________

it is ironic for someone who linked the film version in a DBS thread to call me DB noob < gold joke

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Claiming Filler/headcanon to be retconned < self explanatory

but no, nothing was retconned only your headcanon/filler were dismissed in the discussion

__________________________

Dypo ability stated: Light bullet < Light bullet only allow him to go in a straight line like a LIGHT bullet where even some lords of destructions could not see him lad and others exploited that linear restriction to defeat him

translation: a LS dyspo was faster than Goku in SSB feat wise

there is also the possibility that the name is a hyperbole

his other ability is called super highest speed mode not super light speed mode for reference as that is a mistranslation

__________________________

Champa =/= beerus : it only means champa cannot react to LS characters

_________________________

kamehameha is a Relativistic feat?XD no

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it is not even relativistic let alone LS, it should be either hypersonic or supersonic at best lad

as for the cell

he never dodged the blasts sent to space canon wise

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Goku punches =/= Beerus and Goku fist counter

Beerus vs Champa =/= Beerus vs goku

Goku most impressive feat punch wise is punching north kaio planet which is exactly 222 meter in terms of size lad

other than that there isnt any impressive punch feat relating to goku

____________________________

Shockwaves =/= striking feats + were a thing because of SSG ritual which is not a part of the setting so irrelevant

Frieza didnt destroy planet vegeta, he destroyed its CORE < big difference < even roshi can do that with his moon feat

__________________________

it should goes without saying but Accelerator countered virtually an explosion equal to that of a planet

As the Earth has a period of about 23.93 hours, it has an angular velocity of 7.29×10−5 rad/s. The Earth has a moment of inertia, I = 8.04×1037 kg. m2. Therefore, it has a rotational kinetic energy of 2.138×1029 J.

219 800 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 joules would be 52533460803 megaton of TNT or 52 billion of TNT close to saitama moon jump for comparison

Takes the vectors behind the entire planet enough to slow down the Earth's rotation.

light novel: He took control of all of the vectors.

A great roar exploded out.

In that instant, earth’s rotation slowed by about 5 minutes for September 30.

His arm took the massive energy of the planet’s rotation and used his vector control to transform it into a demonic strike.

The concrete wall he forcibly gouged out was thrown with frightening speed. Accelerator stood in an alley surrounded by buildings, but the several buildings between him and his target were torn through like paper

_________________________________________

light novel:

The girl did not have time to be frozen in shock. She twisted her body and managed to roll a step away from the boy. She swung around her left hand as she could still move that one and gathered power there.

She released a lightning spear from it.

The spear of purple electricity moved forward at the speed of light and held enough destructive force to knock someone unconscious.

She did not think that it would act as a fatal blow.

As long as it distracted him long enough for her to get away, that was enough.

However, the lightning spear she had fired at the boy rebounded and struck her in her own chest.

"Gah…!?"

Accelerator ability one way road has a field of 360°, speed matters not since it react to lightspeed, and has a subatomic reach, with the ability to adapt any physical changes, goku dies

___________________________________________

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Light novel:

They could not withstand it.

To begin with, he doubted the materials of the physical world would be enough to support the full capacity of an angel created by God. Even the Misha Kreutzev from Angel Fall had been in imperfect manifestation. If Misha tried to force out an output greater than the hypothesized amount, the physical body she was made of would explode emitting a massive amount of Telesma.

It would be like a planet exploding at the North Pole.

Despite no prior training in magic, Accelerator is able to perform magic for the first time through all the resources he's gathered throughout the story and putting his own vector calculations into unknown territory. This doesn't ignore the rule that Espers cannot use magic without harming themselves and producing the song for the spell to cure Last Order nearly tears him apart.

he then processed to counter more Blasts from the angel

Telesma that had gathered in the Star of Bethlehem was about to be released upon the Earth, ravaging it. Faced with the new immediate danger, Accelerator's Dark Matter Wings once more are released.

face it, his ability can counter planetary explosions/control a planet itself/control dark matter that he use to fight something above goku

off topic

because unlike some, i do not live in comicvine and when im bored, i deactivate my account forever and if interested check out comicvine

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Shintoki

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#344  Edited By Shintoki

@chaosknight75 said:
@shintoki said:

@chaosknight75: equivalent: thinking fiction rocks are not the same as real life rocks

.....what are you even doing here?

Except Kakine/Accelerator's Dark Matter has nothing to do with Dark Matter as it's defined in real life. They just have the same name and no other relation

Dark Matter in real life: A yet undefined and nor fully understood form of matter believed to make up most of the universe that plays a big part in the way things like galaxies formed

Kakine's Dark Matter: Explicitly described as foreign matter not from anywhere in this universe but form another world altogether and completely defying all known laws of physics of this world because of it. Implied to be angelic power like Telesma as well.

So things like the weight of Dark Matter in real life or anything else to quantify it don't apply since it has nothing to do with actual Dark Matter.

again, you are just repeating yourself, learn what circular logic means

neither does Misaka eletricity as its defined in real life < they just have the same name and no other relation

Misaka eletricity =/= RL eletricity

what is your point?

“Elementary particles are things even tinier than molecules and atoms. We know that there exist gauge bosons, leptons, and quarks. There are also hadrons which are made when antiparticles or quarks gather, but, well, they're all divided into a few general categories. These elementary particles make up the world.”

“However,” said Kakine in a soft voice, “That kind of common knowledge does not apply to my Dark Matter!”

Boom! Accompanying gale winds, the six wings behind Kakine instantly recovered their forms.

“The Dark Matter I create is matter that does not exist in this world. It’s not matter that hasn’t yet been discovered, nor matter that theoretically exists, but rather matter which undeniably does not exist.” < was debunked by accelerator and learn what hyperbole means

A material made by an esper ability that could not be classified by science.

Faced by these white wings that seemed to have come from a different world and defy the laws of physics, Accelerator’s will was not shaken.

Who cares what they are? They will all be shattered by the ability to manipulate vectors.

“OK, then I’ll blast you apart along with your ‘Dark Matter’.”

With one more step forward, Accelerator could tear apart Kakine Teitoku’s heart.

However...

“You still don’t understand.”

As Kakine finished his sentence, his white wings let out a ‘swoosh’ and projected a brilliant white light.

“?!”

A burning pain forced Accelerator to back away from Kakine involuntarily. At the same time, he noticed the change in the situation.

Accelerator who could reflect all vectors was actually hurt by an outside attack.

“That was diffraction. Light or electromagnetic waves change direction when passing through narrow gaps; this is common knowledge even in high school textbooks. Using multiple gaps at the same time will make the waves interfere with each other.”

Simply put it was by diffracting light through the countless unseen gaps on the wings to change the nature of sunlight and use it to attack Accelerator. It was not that the white wings gave off light, but that the light itself was changed by diffracting through them.

“Ah, the value of things depends on how you use them. So, how does it feel to be burned to death by sunlight?”

However...

“… Go back and study up on physics, you idiot. No matter how you diffract sunlight it doesn’t change the nature of it into something like a beam of light that kills.”

“Hm, that is indeed the case with the normal physics of this world.”

Kakine’s six wings curled up and gathered strength.

“But! My Dark Matter is matter that does not exist in this world! It completely disobeys the laws of physics of this world. Sunlight that gets diffracted by the Dark Matter will also have its own set of laws! Foreign bodies are like this: by just mixing in a little bit, the world will completely change!

__________________________________

“At the moment you spoke those words, you became one of those common filth that pass themselves off as great villains.”

“That doesn’t sound convincing.”

Kakine Teitoku said uninterestedly.

“I don’t want to lay hands on normal people either. If I’m in a good mood I’ll even let bad guys off. Having said that, I don’t really care if those people live or die. Aren’t you the same? In our battle just then, how many spectators and bystanders have got hurt? Cement and asphalt were traveling over the speed of sound, and shock-waves wiped out everything. That’s the kind of battle between us.”

“… …”

“Including the brat that shielded Last Order, they are all the same. You don’t have to right to lecture me, murderer. In order to battle with me, the you that kills off bystanders has no right to lecture me. Don’t tell me you truly believe you are exempt from your own ideals.”

“Ha, ‘battling with you and killing off bystanders in the process’, is it?”

Even when accused of this, Accelerator smiled leisurely.

“What a scumbag. It’s because you have no aesthetics that you can say bullshit like that.”

“Huh?”

“In the end, do you understand why you’re #2 and I’m #1?”

As he laughed he spreads his arms out wide.

“Between me and you, there is an impassable wall.”

Kakine was fuming at his comments, but he also noticed it.

Their surroundings.

True, the battle between Accelerator and Dark Matter had destroyed the road. The glass from the buildings had shattered, traffic lights had been blasted off, and trees had been blown away and were sticking out of the cement buildings.

But, something was missing.

Tragedies.

Glass shards had rained down from above, but there was no-one hurt. A sweeping gale had twisted the path of those shards into falling elsewhere. The advertisement signs had miraculously protected those that were to slow to run away. The others were the same, with not a single person hurt. Though it was uncertain, in their fighting to this point, probably not a single bystander had been hurt.

(I-impossible!)

Kakine felt his throat go dry.

“Are you saying… that you protected them all?”

Thinking back, the first sneak attack could have been much more powerful. But if that was the case, Last Order’s companion at that time would also have been hurt.

This was his way of doing things.

Even in a death match between the #1 and #2 Level 5s, even on a battlefield where a slight mistake could get you killed, Accelerator protected the normal people who he had never met before.

“Don’t joke around! Are you saying everything was under your control from the beginning?!”

Accelerator showed impatience, as if saying ‘of course’, and taunted Kakine for his incompetence that he could not do the same.

“Are you angry, you lowlife?”

Towards Kakine who was shocked, Accelerator impatiently said, “Now this is what should be called a villain.”

If after doing this much, if one was still called a villain, then just what did a hero in Accelerator’s mind have to do?!

“Stop spouting nonsense, Accelerator!!”

Kakine Teitoku roared out and increased the power in his six wings. Changing the lengths, the structure, the white wings spread out and transformed into six lethal weapons that aimed at six of Accelerator’s vital points.

Facing these, Accelerator only smiled.

“Bring it on.”

“These are more than enough to bring you down, since I’ve already figured your filtering system. That sham of a defense cannot stop this!”

“Indeed, you can control matter that doesn’t exist in this world.”

Accelerator only wagged his index finger and made a ‘feel free to do your worst’ expression.

“The laws written in school textbooks don’t work on them, and light and electromagnetic waves that come in contact with the Dark Matter get twisted into energy that can’t possibly exist. So using energy calculation algorithms based on rules of this world will definitely have flaws.”

The killing intent between the two had risen dramatically.

This crossroad was now fully saturated with the breath of death.

“Then all I have to do is include them in my calculations. To change the laws of this world into a new world that includes your Dark Matter and create a new algorithm, then it’s checkmate.”

“Using your vector transformation… to control my Dark Matter…?”

“Don’t you think I can do it?”

“Ha, do you think you can gauge the entirety of the depths of my ability just by doing that?”

“Your depth is actually quite shallow.”

“…!?”

“Shallow to the point I don’t even need to try and gauge it!”

A sound of explosions ripped through the sky.

It only took an instant for the two to clash.

The victor in the match between the #1 and #2 had been decided.

.....

you are still wrong lad accelerator style

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Shintoki

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#345  Edited By Shintoki

@ranaprogamer said:

@shintoki: Actually, the first picture I sent is multiple different data books stacked up on each, sorry for the confusion. The one that said that Vegeta has the power to destroy the Earth was actually from a canon databook. If you want I can send a separate page of the databook.

Also no, the Spanish guidebook does not come with the figurines, it’s a guidebook that actually has been translated from English to Spanish and approved by the creators of the original databook.

let me rephrase it that way

if it has nothing to do with akira toriyama it is not canon whether Sheuisha approve of it or not

Author =/= publisher

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/databook/ < official guidebooks that are actual relative to the authors

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38328

No Caption Provided

Hachette has working closely with the Japanese of the Dragon Ball manga publisher: Shueisha.

It's Shueisha which has creates the contents of the fascicles and develops the figurines specially for this collection.

http://web.archive.org/web/20081120094939/http://www.hachette-collections.com/objets-de-collection/dragon-ball-le-manga-de-legende/votre-numero-1/votre-numero-1.htm

nice try but no

that guidebook is still not canon same way funi dub is not be it official or not

it is you who confused lad as i state it again

the guidebook is only restating what vegeta said < actual guidebook

feats or it did not happen

note: they could not have saved him because he died / goku was shot by a laser in SSB < the film is a part of the DBS manga timeline as it is the continuation of the manga that akira/toyo made lad

accelerator killstomp goku

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ChaosKnight75

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#346  Edited By ChaosKnight75

@shintoki: Misaka’s electricity is actually based on electricity as are the numerous ways she can apply it like magnetism, emitting EM waves, the Lorentz force for her Railgun, etc.

Kakine isn’t actually Dark Matter nor related to the substance with the same name, it’s just the name given for his ability.

Kakine’s claims for it were never debunked. Accelerator acknowledged it all as truth and had to update his Vector Reflection to include Dark Matter which followed no known laws of physics.

“Stop spouting nonsense, Accelerator!!”

Kakine Teitoku roared out and increased the power in his six wings. Changing the lengths, the structure, the white wings spread out and transformed into six lethal weapons that aimed at six of Accelerator’s vital points.

Facing these, Accelerator only smiled.

“Bring it on.”

“These are more than enough to bring you down, since I’ve already figured your filtering system. That sham of a defense cannot stop this!”

“Indeed, you can control matter that doesn’t exist in this world.”

Accelerator only wagged his index finger and made a ‘feel free to do your worst’ expression.

“The laws written in school textbooks don’t work on them, and light and electromagnetic waves that come in contact with the Dark Matter get twisted into energy that can’t possibly exist. So using energy calculation algorithms based on rules of this world will definitely have flaws.”

The killing intent between the two had risen dramatically.

This crossroad was now fully saturated with the breath of death.

“Then all I have to do is include them in my calculations. To change the laws of this world into a new world that includes your Dark Matter and create a new algorithm, then it’s checkmate.”

“Using your vector transformation… to control my Dark Matter…?”

“Don’t you think I can do it?”

“Ha, do you think you can gauge the entirety of the depths of my ability just by doing that?”

“Your depth is actually quite shallow.”

“…!?”

“Shallow to the point I don’t even need to try and gauge it!”

A sound of explosions ripped through the sky.

It only took an instant for the two to clash.

The victor in the match between the #1 and #2 had been decided.

So what are you trying to prove with those scans I’m fully aware of? Ya know I’ve read every volume of the series dont'cha, lad?

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#347  Edited By RanaProGamer

@shintoki: Actually, the fact that they restated that Vegeta was going to destroy the Earth only proves that it was true, same can be said for Cell who was going to blow away the Solar System and it is backed up in the databooks, I need you to explain to me why Vegeta is not Planet Level in the Saiyan Saga.

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@shintoki: Misaka’s electricity is actually based on electricity as are the numerous ways she can apply it like magnetism, emitting EM waves, the Lorentz force for her Railgun, etc.

Kakine isn’t actually Dark Matter nor related to the substance with the same name, it’s just the name given for his ability.

Kakine’s claims for it were never debunked. Accelerator acknowledged it all as truth and had to update his Vector Reflection to include Dark Matter which followed no known laws of physics.

“Stop spouting nonsense, Accelerator!!”

Kakine Teitoku roared out and increased the power in his six wings. Changing the lengths, the structure, the white wings spread out and transformed into six lethal weapons that aimed at six of Accelerator’s vital points.

Facing these, Accelerator only smiled.

“Bring it on.”

“These are more than enough to bring you down, since I’ve already figured your filtering system. That sham of a defense cannot stop this!”

“Indeed, you can control matter that doesn’t exist in this world.”

Accelerator only wagged his index finger and made a ‘feel free to do your worst’ expression.

“The laws written in school textbooks don’t work on them, and light and electromagnetic waves that come in contact with the Dark Matter get twisted into energy that can’t possibly exist. So using energy calculation algorithms based on rules of this world will definitely have flaws.”

The killing intent between the two had risen dramatically.

This crossroad was now fully saturated with the breath of death.

“Then all I have to do is include them in my calculations. To change the laws of this world into a new world that includes your Dark Matter and create a new algorithm, then it’s checkmate.”

“Using your vector transformation… to control my Dark Matter…?”

“Don’t you think I can do it?”

“Ha, do you think you can gauge the entirety of the depths of my ability just by doing that?”

“Your depth is actually quite shallow.”

“…!?”

“Shallow to the point I don’t even need to try and gauge it!”

A sound of explosions ripped through the sky.

It only took an instant for the two to clash.

The victor in the match between the #1 and #2 had been decided.

So what are you trying to prove with those scans I’m fully aware of? Ya know I’ve read every volume of the series dont'cha, lad?

something being based on and is are different things

_________________________________

Misaka applications of her Electricity =/= RL applications of Eletricity

_________________________________

No One knows what the actual dark matter is, Enstein, Only that it is DARK as in Inivisble/uninteractive

_________________________________

The Dark Matter I create is matter that does not exist in this world. It’s not matter that hasn’t yet been discovered, nor matter that theoretically exists, but rather matter which undeniably does not exist.

“Indeed, you can control matter that doesn’t exist in this world.”

Accelerator only wagged his index finger and made a ‘feel free to do your worst’ expression.

“The laws written in school textbooks don’t work on them, and light and electromagnetic waves that come in contact with the Dark Matter get twisted into energy that can’t possibly exist. So using energy calculation algorithms based on rules of this world will definitely have flaws.” goku

The killing intent between the two had risen dramatically.

This crossroad was now fully saturated with the breath of death.

“Then all I have to do is include them in my calculations. To change the laws of this world into a new world that includes your Dark Matter and create a new algorithm, then it’s checkmate.”

translation: Dark matter even in the actual world is a what if matter in theory that no one knows about yet < while the one in Index is a matter that exist visibly/interactively so hence why his matter does not exist in the world retarded statement lad

accelerator proved that it does simply by adjusting the laws of physics to fit that of a world where his dark matter exist

if you are done arguing semantics then come up with an actual argument lad

TLDR: even a half dead brain person should get this but: you cannot control what does not exist

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ChaosKnight75

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#349  Edited By ChaosKnight75

@shintoki: Wrong again.

Misaka’s got one of the most accurate and detailed portrayals of electricity in a fictional characters and her moves are explained and grounded by how electricity and magnetism behave

We have enough of an understanding of real life Dark Matter to make theories of it. It exists in this universe and is involved with things like gravity which is one of the four fundamental forces of the universe.

Neither of which apply to Kakine’s Dark Matter. It’s clearly stated that Kakine’s Dark Matter isn’t just a what-if Matter that theoretically exist and simply isn’t understood yet, but that it truly never existed before Kakine created it and that it’s a substance from another world that violates all known laws of physics of this universe and can’t be explained by current science, science that in this series is ahead of real life by 20 years.

Real life Dark Matter certainly doesn’t let you sprout angel wings either. It’s invisible in real life.

Real life Dark Matter doesn’t do anything that Kakine can do since that’s the whole point of his power

Accelerator whose got a textbook knowledge on all physics and has a mind that works like super-computer having to update his Reflection to include Dark Matter further proves that it’s matter not of this world, something Accelerator acknowledged even after he countered it, stating that he literally had to redefine his powers into a whole new world which includes Dark Matter.

TLDR Even a moron would see that everything I’m saying comes straight from your scans you keep posting

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@shintoki: Actually, the fact that they restated that Vegeta was going to destroy the Earth only proves that it was true, same can be said for Cell who was going to blow away the Solar System and it is backed up in the databooks, I need you to explain to me why Vegeta is not Planet Level in the Saiyan Saga.

Cell is not a solar system buster as that was a mistranslation and restatements are statements + re =/= feats

same reason as why Piccolo Daimao is not as the term would be: hyperboling