About Luffy's Punk Hazard feat...

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#1 Edited by shirso (4845 posts) - - Show Bio

Some of you might have seen, debated for or against one particular feat in OP threads recently, namely Luffy's Punk Hazard explosion timing. It has already led to some pretty heated exchanges and back and forths, especially for me, both on CV as well as on Discord, so I thought I might as well make a thread explaining the feat, the common counter arguments that have so far been brought against it, and finally how to use the feat on the Forums or in a CaV.

A short disclaimer before we begin: Everything that follows is only my opinion so I am not asking anyone to take what I am about to say as gospel truth. Debate is always welcome.

So, let's get to it:

Let's see the feat itself first. Here are the relevant scans:

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One Piece Chapter 671

So basically what happens is Caesar wraps his Slime, which is a gelatinous substance (its compressed H2S gas) around Luffy, and then commands it to explode. We get a fairly large explosion and in the next panel we see Luffy is standing well behind Caesar, fairly unharmed, saying, "Whew that was close, what a huge explosion". Meaning he outpaced an explosion that was on his clothes fast enough to come out more or less unscathed.

Now the numbers for this feat is nothing complex. The thickest fabrics in the world are about 0.03 cm thick, let's take the flame speed of the explosion to be about Mach 1, and the time frame comes out to be about 1 micro second.

Meaning Luffy reacted and outpaced the explosion before it could cover 0.03 cm or fully burn through his clothes, or in other words, Luffy can perceive and react in a time frame of 1 micro second.

That's it really, that's the feat. now I will address some of the most common counter arguments I have faced:

Its an outlier

Of all the counter arguments, I personally feel this is the dumbest, no offense. You simply cannot call a character's first major feat after a time skip an "outlier" unless you are biased against the verse for some reason or there are clear cut anti feats from later on.

Besides there are other quad mach feats in the verse, and Rayleigh in particular, who trained Luffy over the time skip, did something very similar.

Its "impossible"

At first sight I admit it might look a little fantastical, but from what I can see, there's nothing physically impossible about the feat. I will just quote myself here:

Luffy reacted and outpaced the explosion before it could cover 0.03 cm or fully burn through his clothes,

That explains it really. Luffy's clothes have a finite thickness, the flame of the explosion has a finite speed, meaning Luffy had a finite time interval before he could escape without the flame fully burning through his clothes. It seems a little absurd but I assure you there's nothing physically impossible about it. Similar feats from fiction would include Fox Quicksilver clearing an entire building of its residents before the explosion moved meters or Flash evacuating an entire city before a nuclear explosion destroyed it.

If Luffy was mid air, how did he outpace the explosion?

I think there's two ways he could have done it, either using the CP9's Soru (which he learnt before the time skip), or which seems more likely to me, he extended his arms to catch a boulder or something, and pull himself away. It may also be a combination of the two.

But we don't REALLY see how he dodged it hence its unusable

Again kind of a dumb argument really, and this point was heavily debated in Discord too, it doesn't matter HOW he dodged it, as long as we KNOW for a fact that he did dodge it.

Why are his clothes completely unscathed after the explosion?

He was not really completely unscathed, we do see his clothes and face lightly singed in the very next page.

As I said, the flame just started to singe his clothes and skin but he outpaced it before it could fully burn through his clothes or skin,

How do we know he didn't escape before the explosives detonated?

Because:

  1. The explosive which is a gelatinous slime was wrapped around his body, sticking to him (Caesar explicitly used the word "wrap"), he could not have outpaced it before it detonated as he would simply be carrying the slime with him in that case.
  2. Just the panel before Caesar gives the command to explode, we see the slime completely wrapped around Luffy.
  3. Neither Caesar would have given the command to explode nor would Franky have warned Luffy "watch out those are explosive" if he had already escaped in those panels, before Caesar detonated it.
  4. If its anything, the anime depicts Luffy being completely enclosed by the slime and not out of it, before Caesar makes it explode.

Is the Slime actually sticky?

This is kinda nitpicking and I would have thought this would be obvious since its consistently described as a "slime" or being a "gelatinous liquid" which are sticky by nature, but since a user brought it up, I will say yes, Caesar's Slime has depicted sticky properties on panel sticking to a ship's sails for instance, or climbing and crossing mountains utilizing its gelatinous nature to stick to the surface.

That should cover the main counter arguments to the feat that I have had to debate against. If you want to read the more detailed back and forths I had with multiple debaters over the feat, I would suggest going to the Luffy vs Itachi thread and read from Post 109.

Now I would just give a few notes as to how to use this feat if you plan to do so on the Forums or a CaV:

First and foremost, this is mainly a Reaction, NOT a combat speed feat. We do know for a fact he could react in time to safely dodge the explosion, but what we don't know is how badly he outpaced it, so we can't explicitly say how fast he actually moved there, but if I had to make an educated guess, I'd say it should be at least high double digit machs.

What's irrefutable though, is Luffy reacting fast enough to move away before the explosion completely burned through his clothes, which means he can react in a micro second.

If you want to scale this feat to combat speed, you'd need to show your character moving FTE to or blitzing base Luffy.

Having said that, this is still a reaction feat, so although base PH Luffy can't fight at quad mach speeds, he can certainly react(like putting up a defensive guard, or activating a CoA defense) to quad mach attacks from close range.

Secondly, you should know the baseline it gives people who can blitz base Luffy. Moving 1 metre in 1 microsecond is somewhere in the Mach 2000's and I'd argue that level of combat speed for people who can consistently move FTE to or blitz base Luffy.

That should cover everything I guess. Nobody I have debated (and trust me there have been some really heated opposition to this, I have made plenty of enemies over this on Discord lol) has really been able to irrefutably debunk this feat and as such I personally believe this feat is as valid as it gets, but again that's my opinion only.

With that out of the way, I think this is the right time to announce that I will not be debating One Piece on the forums for a while after this. Maybe I will pick up a new series to rep (Bleach probably). But I have given you the feat and my interpretation as to why I think its as impressive as it is. Now use it as you see fit (or don't).

Keeping that in mind, though I would love to see some good back and forths here, I'd really prefer if you didn't tag me on this thread because I am not looking to debate this feat anymore than I already have (and trust me I have debated this feat against multiple people, for pages on end). If you have some questions, feel free to shoot me a PM however.

That's about it, let's see where this goes and how this changes things on the forums.

See you all when Wano ends...

Peace out.

Signing off,

Shirso

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#2 Posted by shirso (4845 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Edited by HitTheAssasin (8621 posts) - - Show Bio

The sheer fact that you have to go to these lengths and make this many "probablys" and "maybes" should probably tell you something about how useable this feat is. But hey, that's just my opinion.

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#4 Posted by Visionary- (65 posts) - - Show Bio

Don’t care tbh

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#5 Edited by Streak619 (8167 posts) - - Show Bio

You still haven't addressed how he dodged an explosion that was on his skin and clothes, your calcs assume it was only on the latter, which isn't true. And you still haven't addressed how he avoided an omnidirectional explosion that surrounded his entire body from all direction.

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#6 Edited by HitTheAssasin (8621 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619 said:

You still haven't addressed how he dodged an explosion that was on his skin and clothes, your calcs assume it was only on the latter, which isn't true. And you still haven't addressed how he avoided an omnidirectional explosion that surrounded his entire body from all direction.

In addition to that, I'll add that his clothes weren't singed because of that explosion, but because of the one he failed to dodge just one page earlier(which, btw, adds an element of inconsistency if you argue he moved after the explosion detonated), so it's still a basically impossible feat. Last but no least, the evidence the slimes are actually sticky is unconvincing to say the least, we already know they can move of their own will and that they can wrap around things, that isn't the same thing as actually sticking to something.

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#7 Posted by Overwarrior2 (1305 posts) - - Show Bio

So as one of the resident One Piece experts I can explain this.

1. In SBS volume 13 Oda made it clear he prefers not destroying clothes because otherwise the characters would be nude all the time.

This means that Luffy could have just tanked the attack or moved insanely fast, but just not as fast as his clothes not being damaged would imply.

2. Luffy has precog. He could have preemptively reacted to the explosion.

The simple fact is these are both far more plausible explanations then Luffy being Mach 2000 in base form.

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#8 Edited by ourmanuel (12620 posts) - - Show Bio

There’s something very weird with this feat.

Nevertheless, I can’t really come up with any other explanation asides from him actually reacting in time. Tho streak and Hit do bring up solid points that just make the feat seem more doubtful.

But the whole clothing argument isn’t that good as it’s pretty much an anime(and fiction in general) trope that clothes don’t get destroyed during things like that.

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#9 Posted by Hey_Thatsmildlyadequate (1735 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think it's an outliar, but actually quantifying it is iffy

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#10 Posted by SocaJunkie (9132 posts) - - Show Bio

Once again, this feat is fine however I’m still of the opinion that using Brook intercepting lightning to scale anyone faster than him works better as it’s much harder for anyone to argue against, despite Hit’s desperate attempts.

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#11 Posted by TheEmperor95 (1806 posts) - - Show Bio

Wasn't this feat done in gear 2? He uses jet stamp instantly after they realize he is there which is a gear 2 move.

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#12 Posted by Soothing_Sounds (2296 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't goku do this same thing? Why do people question the legitimacy.

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#13 Posted by HitTheAssasin (8621 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, and finally, it being one of the first feats after a powerup doesn't disqualify it for outlier status, if there are no other feats of comparable magnitude from both faster characters and Luffy himself(over the several hundred chapters after this), it could still easily qualify as one.

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#14 Posted by HitTheAssasin (8621 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie: I never argued against Brook's feat, as far as I remember. It's perfectly legitimate, if you believe Zeus' lightning is natural. Which is probably the case.

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#15 Posted by SocaJunkie (9132 posts) - - Show Bio

@hittheassasin: I remember the opposite with you saying it was iffy.

It’s natural, he’s a literal cloud so there isn’t much else to say, sure he’s been animated with Linlin’s soul but saying the lightning isn’t natural because of that doesn’t hold weight to me.

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#16 Posted by HitTheAssasin (8621 posts) - - Show Bio

@socajunkie: That was because I forgot about Zeus' nature, the nature that makes his lightning the closest to natural as even feasibly possible.

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#17 Posted by SkySanji (5559 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah it's an amazing feat but Brooke's feat is infinitely better but it's good to have another feat that can't be debunked.

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#18 Posted by Consciouskeeper (2596 posts) - - Show Bio

At the end of the day comicvine is the only forum currently that debates luffy speed and DC. I troll argue he is FTL but realistically he is massively hypersonic + and comfortably high 3 digit to low 4 digit mach in gear 4.

But this is comicvine and people do not like hearing he is small country ap or quad mach

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#19 Edited by seastone98 (4802 posts) - - Show Bio

Instead of going thru mental gymnastics 2 argue the feat is legitimate just say luffy used pre cognition its a perfectly reasonable point & saves u time

Online
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#20 Edited by BrownZeus (999 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: ComicVine has a discord? Wow had no idea.

I first saw this feat be mentioned in the Stark VS Luffy thread and I really did not mind it, since I've been working threads here in CV have just sort of went by without me reading them. You strike me most as a possitive and rational person and I have never so far had problems understanding your posts yet I kind of get a dejected vibe from this one and that ticles my curiosity, can you drop me the relevant threads that made you post this?

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#21 Posted by shirso (4845 posts) - - Show Bio

@brownzeus: The Luffy vs Itachi thread is the main and I linked it in my post. Read from post 109

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#22 Posted by BrownZeus (999 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: ahh stupid me XD I read it in a rush because I need sleep. Thanks for linking it I will read it after I wake up.

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#23 Posted by BrownZeus (999 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: damn you met a lot of opposition. I for one do see your reasoning as sound and logical, surprisingly I also agree a bit with the people who disagree with you.

Thing is series like the HST are not perfect. They have inconsistencies and when following different threads of logic similarly reasonable people can head towards different evaluations of a series's power levels. Take it from me. Over a year and a half ago when you, me and Darthjhawk agreed on the composite battle CAV I got into the utmost vague series of all HST: Bleach.

Doing a composite CAV for Bleach was horrendous because gauging the stats of the series could vary tremendously. So much so that when I was done with my second post I allready disagreed with many of the initial points I made in my first post. I realised that because bleach was such a vague series with contradictions on top it was perfectly possible for different people to come with different evaluations due to everyone rationalising things differently.

This is very important because I noticed a psychological trend with people: each of the HST series has people generally arguing for it. In the case of vs HST battles you would see people who tend to support their side give a somewhat beneficial benefit of the doubt to the series they argue for while remaining skeptical of the other side and this just keeps happening because the contradictions and flaws for each series allow for different lines of reasoning.

This is what I see happening with the people who disagreedisagree with you in the Itachi thread. I can actually see some form of reasoning for their skepticism.

I actually give you the benefit of the doubt in this topic. Not because I like OP more than Naruto (I really like OP much more than Naruto though) or because I have explicitly done my own searching that just so happens to bensure mostly similar to yours but because so far in the 4 years I have been in CV ever since I could remember you seemed genuinely honest with trying to gauge power levels and as I wrote before your points were always clear to me and so it was easy for me to see your line of reasoning. It all comes down to honesty. I could clearly see from my perspective that most of the people you argued with have preferential towards Naruto and we're actually very skeptical of everything you brought up, but this has to do with the very human nature of growing unconsciously attached to everything we take part in, and who knows? Maybe I am agreeing more with you because I may have a subconscious slant for One Piece over Naruto.

Not that I am flawless either. I so far clearly would side with Bleach in HST debates, I have noticed I regard Bleach higher overall compared to our manuell but still less than Faraday loth. I always try to be honest which is why I very much avoid the topic of speed in Bleach since it can vary widely. Regardless I just felt the need to reply. I hope the frustration really does not get to you and I look forward to any of the CAVS you take part in.

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#24 Edited by shirso (4845 posts) - - Show Bio

@brownzeus: Thanks for taking the time to read through everything and give such detailed feedback mate, appreciate it :) I actually will be taking a break from OP and be debating Bleach on the forums for a while now, so who knows, we will probably be teaming up in no time.

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#25 Posted by Defiant_Will (1285 posts) - - Show Bio

Quad mach BASE Luffy?

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#26 Posted by FaradaySloth (11168 posts) - - Show Bio

People think way too hard into this lol. I mean, like others have said, what else was Oda suppose to draw, Naked Luffy?

I really don't care for this feat (shocking to some), since it's just a reaction speed feat to one attack. Have somebody with Quad Mach Combat Speeds that can spam their attacks would destroy Luffy.

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#27 Posted by shirso (4845 posts) - - Show Bio

@defiant_will: Pretty sure I didn't say that lol, at least for combat speed. Thanks for commenting anyway :)

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#28 Posted by BrainDrain (949 posts) - - Show Bio

Firstly any argument is usable in a debate if it is supported by reasonable evidence however being said this very same argument can be applied to a slue of different characters across the boards. I believe the only way to concretely look at this is the fact he blatantly outpaced a point blank explosion as it happened, which is certainly fast no doubt but the sheer comparison to characters who have done similar makes it look like more of an Anti feat unless you can give a guesstimate to the distance he crossed in said timeframe it's just too underwhelming.

Though it should be noted Ceasar is far faster than explosions and the cause of said exolosion is due to him causing combustion throughout the air. It would be far faster than simply evading an explosive but the problem comes in quantifying it.

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#29 Edited by HigherPower (12399 posts) - - Show Bio

To be candid, while I haven't resigned myself to Luffy being quad mach or anything like that, him having micro-second reactions is not at all invalid and there's nothing overtly wrong with this feat. If any disagreements arise, they should be disagreements about the consistency of his reaction speed when he's on guard, since the feat itself is as straightforward as it gets.

Specifically I think the argument that the feat is impossible is beyond dumb and makes no sense. "How did he dodge the explosion if it was omnidirectional?" Like what?

Luffy is encapsulated in explosive goo, the goo detonates, but when it does, it's literally not moving because his perceptions are that fast. So fast that the explosion doesn't travel up to 0.03 cm, which means it's virtually motionless. The reason why this feat is impressive at all is because Luffy statued the explosion. Within the timeframe that it would have taken the flames to move that incomprehensibly small distance, Luffy was able to remove himself from the explosion (through means that literally do not matter) before it could burn him.

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#30 Edited by shirso (4845 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Edited by DeathHero61 (18870 posts) - - Show Bio

This is tough. But I'm not too sure its a perfect feat to use in debates the way you would. @shirso There are legit better feats to use, and I feel we are going in the opposite direction of debating that we used to oppose(an abuse of calculations and numbers). Despite this, I do think its a credible feat. However I do want to talk about your defense relating to the feat while simultaneously arguing for your side.

That explains it really. Luffy's clothes have a finite thickness, the flame of the explosion has a finite speed, meaning Luffy had a finite time interval before he could escape without the flame fully burning through his clothes. It seems a little absurd but I assure you there's nothing physically impossible about it. Similar feats from fiction would include Fox Quicksilver clearing an entire building of its residents before the explosion moved meters or Flash evacuating an entire city before a nuclear explosion destroyed it.

Your analogies are nowhere near comparable, they had so much leverage and had plenty of space from their perspective. Luffy was half-conscious, and has an explosive material all over his body, similar to Goku's feat during the Namek saga where Frieza wrapped his body in an explosive light. Not many feats are similar to what Luffy specifically did. This is why the possibility of the feat is being called into question. Its almost impossible to achieve. He would have had to statue the explosion like HP said, and somehow avoid being burnt despite being at the core of the explosion. Its technically not impossible if you have the speed to do so, but its kind of ridiculous.

I think there's two ways he could have done it, either using the CP9's Soru (which he learnt before the time skip), or which seems more likely to me, he extended his arms to catch a boulder or something, and pull himself away. It may also be a combination of the two.

Gear 2nd emulates Soru but isn't the same, CP9 members use a combination of soru and air walk to get around, Luffy cannot do that with little to no leverage, and what rock could he have latched on to where he was positioned? Luffy was literally in the worst spot in terms of avoiding an explosion of that nature. Like Hit said not knowing the method makes it seem incredibly shaky and borderline unreliable, but it doesn't truly matter because Luffy did something similar before.

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So it cannot even be argued as an outlier because there are several feats to supplement its reliability as feat to present Luffy's speed.. for example characters moving to stop meteors at point blank range, and honestly at the speed the meteor approached their location,(a minute at most honestly) it was definitely moving way faster than Mach 30. Arguing that its impossible is kind of unfair because a lot of his feats don't make sense and a lot of characters in the verse doesn't make sense either. During the fishman saga, Hody threw a water droplet with enough force to wreck city blocks in the anime. That's insane. The speed of said bullets most be enormous. In the manga version, it was something even crazier, his water shot had such speed and force and piercing power it traveled 150KM(Pierced through the fishman soldier, fishman have higher durability and strength than your average human BTW, so their body likely slowed the bullet down to some extent even though they are fodder; then pierced through a city block's worth of building sized structures and so on.) I predict the time for all this was about 10-15 seconds at the max. Traveling 150KM in 10 seconds is freaking mach 40....... Which i will 15 seconds is about mach 29. Plausible. So lets say anywhere between 10 to 40 times the speed of sound for these projectiles, and Luffy was weaving through them, yes he had battle precog, but some speed had to be involved regardless.

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Luffy was dodging a barrage of these in his base form. One Piece has a bunch of ridiculous superhuman feats like this scattered throughout the series, the PH feat is just another one of them to be honest. I feel the arguments against the feat are justified but just aren't enough to discredit it. I'm always a skeptic but there isn't a concrete way to debunk the feat. It happened straight up, Franky's dialogue implies he somehow outpaced it, and its not really inconsistent with his feats.

I personally wouldn't go to the lengths Shirso did to calculate the timeframe and such, and put luffy at thousands of times the speed of sound, but I can see the reasoning behind it. I would use the feat and mention calculations like this if necessary to prove a point, but generally I would rather present the several other feats OP has to offer like Brook outpacing lightning at close range during the Big Mom fight.

TLDR VERSION:

Its not perfect, but there isn't anything to debunk it. Nothing you could possibly think of could debunk it. He's performed the feat before, and there are feats equally as absurd, but these characters are superhumans, stop overthinking it. All that matters is that the direction of the writing and drawing implies he was fast enough to outpace it somehow despite the circumstances.

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#32 Posted by ourmanuel (12620 posts) - - Show Bio

@shirso: But why don’t you just use brook’s feat as others have mentioned.

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#33 Posted by Lan_Fan (16799 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619 said:

You still haven't addressed how he dodged an explosion that was on his skin and clothes, your calcs assume it was only on the latter, which isn't true. And you still haven't addressed how he avoided an omnidirectional explosion that surrounded his entire body from all direction.

In addition to that, I'll add that his clothes weren't singed because of that explosion, but because of the one he failed to dodge just one page earlier(which, btw, adds an element of inconsistency if you argue he moved after the explosion detonated), so it's still a basically impossible feat. Last but no least, the evidence the slimes are actually sticky is unconvincing to say the least, we already know they can move of their own will and that they can wrap around things, that isn't the same thing as actually sticking to something.

This...