Armstrong Academy Scenario - Mission Match: ESCORT
This is a mission connected to the Armstrong Academy, a scenario in which participants are students at a school for superheroes. For more information and to read the story thus far, view the main thread.
Team A begins at the location marked Back Traffic along with the VIP; a human scientist. They must bring the VIP to the Factory.
Team B begins at the Factory. They must somehow "take" the VIP from Team A and bring them to the location marked Back Flowers.
There are no other civilians in the arena/location.
Both Teams will PM me their first posts
Both Teams are aware of the others starting location.
Rules
Team Members may not attack one another; if they do, they are DQ'd.
Travel Speed is limited to Mach 1/Speed of Sound.
Victory is attained when one team has brought the VIP to the location they were assigned to escort to.
Players may KO or Incap fellow students; they may not use lethal killing blows.
Powers and Gear are limited to the same limits in the sign up thread. If you showcase power(s) or abilities beyond those limits (and are not an NPC) then you will be nerf'd mid fight.
Match outcome will be determined by hosts (TTBA & Lunacyde)
Uliana's team, as well as all other teams starting with the VIP, have several apparent advantages because of this seemingly inconsequential detail. Firstly, we know where the VIP will be at the start and for the first part of the encounter whereas the other team would have to hunt the VIP down. Secondly, the VIP would be willing the "hero team" rather than the "villain team" which means the other team would have to take the VIP by force and carry them to their desired point, hindering their mobility. Furthermore, large scale area of effect abilities is disincentivized seeing as the VIP is to remained unharmed and said VIP will be relatively close to our team during any combative encounters. So with that being said, I'll go over my plan.
To complete your mission you'd have to find us with all sorts of false leads to distract you, after you find us you have to take the VIP from us while dodging sound mines, and after that, you'd have to take the VIP. But unfortunately, you can't. Not unless you want to get KO'd. So with that said, completing the mission is impossible for you.
Jenny nodded at the robot "so we'll go with the sleep attack plan then we find em from a distance then i'll let loose the cry, you'll go in on the ground me in the air and we'll wrap this up quick."
The sound rang letting them know to begin and Jenny and her partner took off.
Actual Debate
Finding your Team
So Jenny is blessed with Sonar Echolocation (the same her father had actually)
she could build a sonic picture of an entire boat and was able to track Spider Woman with Sonar
this is Banshee's description of how it works and yes it can track exact objects like trees (so you're little bodies are gonna stick out like sore thumbs)
There's no real way to hide from Sonar, not one you'll have option from, even Blackout's powers won't save you from that. And you won't hear me coming (see Sleep Attack for why)
Once we have found you we enact
Sleep Attack
Siryn can make her pitch so high she can't be heard and still fly, and she can release a sonic scream that scrambles the inner ear fluid and make you really dizzy, nauseous, and then make you pass out. Even if your team is not put to sleep by this it will most certainly make you incredibly dizzy and very Nauseated
oh and this can cover an entire base, we will be in range of you but unless you are actively pursuing us we'll back off and let this sonic attack take care of you from a distance, no need to let you see us coming
This attack was also fast acting enough that no one could raise the alarm despite it affecting everyone
After Sleep Attack
What PS-4 Does
Once Jenny puts your team to sleep P-S4 will land and rush in super speed. P-S4's body Barry can move so fast he looks like a blur and even leaves after images with sheer movement speed
Rushing out of the wall speed blitzing Katya. This is around mini speedster levels of speed. Along with Bender's arms P-S4 can quickly grab far away things with speed and range
And if by some chance neither are asleep you'll most certainty will very disoriented and nauseous leave both open to attack by P-S4 who can also strike at mini speedster levels
His arm moves at rapid fire, so fast it leaves after-images at the sheer speed. The intention is clear. And Barry is damn strong too, in his first time as a cyborg he lifts and throws a one ton truck with one arm like its a toy.
And as shown before cracks a concrete pillar by tackling Katya into it. So P-S4 can rush in while your nauseous and hit you with one ton level of strength with strikes so fast that they leave after images from a safe distance away due to extenso matic arms. Overall either your asleep letting P-S4 before go in and out with ease or your nauseous letting P-S4 quickly k.o you grabbing the VIP and leaving
What Jenny does
Jenny is going to come in from the air, she knows that Zane is the bigger threat being that he can fly, if he's still conscious or even standing a quick sonic burst to clip his wings further. and then she'll target Uliana with a short sonic burst. (This is if you can prove you can stay awake... which im not sure you can.)
Sonic Burst
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this is the kind of AoE threat Siryn has multi-car level destruction
and i can even hurt people like Base Strong Guy with my sonic cries...
and if you are thinking about using the ViP as a hostage or anything, Siryn can be very accurate with her bursts there is no risk to the VIP here (other than he'll be asleep)
Overview
We can easily find you, we know where you start and from there echolocation will do the rest
We have an attack that puts everyone to sleep and its fast acting
PS-4 runs in grabs the VIP and leaves. PS-4 is a robot he has no inner ear fluid, he's perfectly safe and he's fast
I mop up in stragglers... Blackout does nothing to me with my Sonar and once the the VIP is out of the room i can unleash a an AoE attack, assuming your team is even conscious
Alright @sazzmi / @warlockmage / @avaliantimge - Your initial posts are both finished so feel free to sort out who posts next to keep this debate going!
I'd like to wrap things up within a week or so, if that's possible.
We have an attack that puts everyone to sleep and its fast acting
It won't affect my summon. It doesn't have any internal organs and doesn't need sleep. And being an independent summon, it could easily wake my team members up after the attack is completed
We can easily find you, we know where you start and from there echolocation will do the rest
PS-4 runs in grabs the VIP and leaves. PS-4 is a robot he has no inner ear fluid, he's perfectly safe and he's fast
She gets blown up and away. Her body's got messed up by much less. Consistently speaking, her body's been harmed, damage and knocked down [not necessarily out] by cars and trucks alike. So she definitely wouldn't be able to take multiple explosions even if she tried. And the girl that was blown away in my scan was being protected by hair strong enough to tear up the house and was a good couple meter from the initial explosion.
What's more, is that she can't travel as fast as you want to represent him. Otherwise, she wouldn't have needed this motorcycle. [more anti-feats in that link]
It won't affect my summon. It doesn't have any internal organs and doesn't need sleep. And being an independent summon, it could easily wake my team members up after the attack is completed
it doesn't need to, with both you and Warren out of commission it's a 2 on 1, i distract the summon, PS-4 uses the extendo arms to grab the VIP (which will actually hurt your team severely)
completely irrelevant, we can tell the sounds being generated won't be from humans and overwriting Mind Control in no way directly correlates to messing with Sonar. which btw uses sound waves bounced off objects... im truly puzzled as to how you thought that was relevant.
but another way i can find your team is by bending soundwaves
so i can tell what's generating those sounds if its not human i simply pass, you're attempting to use sound distractions against someone who has almost complete mastery over soundwaves
What's more, is that she can't travel as fast as you want to represent him. Otherwise, she wouldn't have needed this motorcycle. [more anti-feats in that link]
That happened in Dreamland aka Archer's coma dream it didn't happen it literally happened in Archer's head. yeah all of Dreamland is a coma dream for Archer
She gets blown up and away. Her body's got messed up by much less. So she definitely wouldn't be able to take multiple explosions.
did you miss the part where he's grabbing the VIP with his extendo arms... congratulations the trap springs with you and Zane (unconscious or not since you said you would give use the VIP) in the epicenter of your own blast...
as for P-S4's durability the body has survived a grain silo explosion and being run over and before that being hit with two explosive shotgun blasts
but hey can your summon or you take that point blank assault you were bragging about or did you accidentally just kill yourself with your own explosion (at worst PS-4 is missing a limb or 2 and you are quite dead...Tai Lee doesn't have house level durability) now lucky for you Barry said you won't die here, because you doubled down on your trap it backfires and blows up in your face.
Conclusion
your one singular hope is that somehow your soundwaves confuse someone who can bend soundwaves and has really good echolocation (and has fought her father Banshee and didn't seem bothered by it) and that we never find you before you get to where you need to go
if we can find just a general location my sleep attack puts you to sleep, and then we rush in and use the Extendo arms thereby triggering the trap (with you accidentally getting "killed") your summon cannot possibly fight both of us.
EVEN if you aren't put to sleep and you give us the VIP like you suggested PS-4 already said he planned to use his Extendo arms this would trigger the trap right in front of your own team... and its not meta gaming this was our plan before we even knew what you were doing, its a happy accident that the trap triggers and KO's your whole team including your summon
if the trap still somehow remains after what should be your burning corpses littering the ground we can just put something underneath the VIP and carry him, your team is KO'd we have a large amount of time.
How do you plan on doing that? You haven't shown any means of traversing this amount of distance in a shot amount of time. And it's priority is keeping me safe. Furthermore, it can move around far faster than you dashing around at casually FTE speeds and all it has to do to wake me up is write "wake up" on me.
ahh FTE feats... ya know Batman can move at FTE speeds, i think im faster than Batman do you have any actual concrete speed feats?
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like say being able to outfly missiles fired at you?
It is relevant actually, the sounds are consistently shown to have effects on ones mentality, similar to low level telepathy. That feat is to show how potent these subliminal messages are. So Jenny is going to hear "I'm over here" and due to lack of mental defenses or overwhelming willpower, she's going to fall for it regardless of the shape.
so this is now a telepathic attack oh goodie
Telepathy is limited to street level telepathy such as Gorgon or Mister X. Cannot use their power to attack, only read minds. Limit may be reduced as scenario progresses.
All that scan shows is her basically allowing them to hear sounds of her choosing. The problem now choosing the sounds. There are sounds everywhere, all of them giving off potent subliminal messages that'll make you believe those are the sounds you want to follow.
see above as to why telepathic attacks are completely banned, good job, but Backlash has insane amounts of willpower . but i can bend the soundwaves and realize they aren't human, and since your attacks completely go against the no telepathy rule well...
Backlash was able to survive and stay conscious in the vacuum of space now his body was able to accomplish this because he's part Kherrubrim but the pain would have had to be rather unbearable. if only high willpower is needed to overcome it i have it strides.
And P-S4 is a robot you haven't shown this power working on machines. At the very least P-S4 will know which sounds are real or not and be completely unaffected.
Did you miss the part where the girl also was several meters away and was further protected by small building level hair?
you're unconscious... what are you going to do, while your batman level speed summon is busy waking you up we've already tanked it. and if your summon tries to wake you up i pelt it with a sonic scream, since you have no durability feats for your summon (and this is your final post im going to assume he has none and gets immediately one shot, as should the people judging this)
Zane will be up in the air somewhere and the unwanted effects of the sounds won't affect me as much as it will you. Here, the winds that lifted Yukako several dozen meters back hardly affected Echoes's owner Kioshi and look back at the first scan where neither Kioshi nor his Stand were harmed. So what we can tell by both of these pieces of evidence is that Echoes and it's owner, can't be harmed by sounds they've created and the objects in which they embue the sounds in are also unaffected.
Zane is asleep you still haven't countered the sleep scream and so he is in fact KO'd. congrats you survive your own trap blast, unconscious and asleep next your summon but unharmed.
With what exactly? And it triggers upon any contact so that wouldn't work.
So that would mean the instant the VIP falls asleep hitting the ground activating the trap ... ...Revealing your position and setting off your trap which would mean another one would have to be set......
Looking at the whole chapter when someone touched a trapped railing the words/sounds disappear
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And again when the same person bounces on a rock the words/sound aren't seen anymore
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Aaaand the after explosive trap is triggered the words/sound are no longer seen on Kioshi's back
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All this points to the fact when the inscribed effect is activated the it disappears from the object and therefore no longer affects anyone who touches it, the evidence is right there clear as day with three instances provided. This means three very important things.
From your own words the trap is triggered upon any contact meaning the trap is set off before P-S4 gets there. Therefore she is not damaged and we instantly know your location. And with Jenny's flying we can there almost immediately.
Because the kanji disappears once it's triggered the trap will have to be set again
Your Echo will try to wake you first leaving the VIP trap-less ,making it safe for P-S4 to grab him. How do I know this? You said it yourself
And it's priority is keeping me safe
Again your words, so while it goes to wake you up P-S4 rushes in at a high speeds with extendo arms picks up the VIP and leaves . While Echos gets one shotted by Jenny's scream trying to wake you up, since no durability feats were provided nor any reaction feats to suggest it could avoid/tank a sonic attack. It's been caught by slower
So much for FTE speeds.......And even if one wants to say that it was a surprise attack, Jenny's sonic scream is also a surprise attack....while echos is busy waking you up like what it was doing here......
Conclusion
The trap doesn't harm me, the stand, or the VIP
see that's where Jenny's sonic scream comes in
The sounds are more akin to mental illusions than regular sounds
which completely breaks the rules on telepathy but i am glad your continued use of the word "mental" is present throughout your post
The trap will trigger upon any contact
Which means its set off when the VIP falls on the ground, making him safe to touch and be carried away................
What Actually happens
The Mission begins
your illegal power maybe throws us off for a second... since you haven't shown it working on robots im pretty sure PS-4 can help Jenny
We put you and Zane to sleep. The VIP sets off the trap making him safe to touch and reveals exact your location. We then get there with Jenny's fast flight speed.
Your Batman speed summon tires to wake you up only to be immediately one shotted by Jenny's sonic scream
With the trap gone P-S4 easily picks up the VIP and runs off with him. While You and Zane stay in dream land.
ah FTE feats... ya know Batman can move at FTE speeds, i think im faster than Batman do you have any actual concrete speed feats?
This is a textbook example of false equivalency, as well as hypocrisy seeing as PS-4's only claim to high-speed combat is after images and blur speed. Something even a child could do by waving their hand in front of themselves. So if we're applying this logic, PS-4 is only peak human level. This is further supported by the fact that in your own gif, using the timeframe given by the show, it would take PS-4 a second or two to complete a 10-meter dash. And I'd honestly have Batman's speed than some 4th place Olympic athlete's speed.
like say being able to outfly missiles fired at you?
That's actually less quantifiable than FTE combat speed. Missles have a wide range of speed and determining how fast these specific missiles are going is practically impossible. Whereas determining the minimum speed required to go completely FTE via sheer speed can be easily determined and I'll do so here using this scan as a baseline and lowballing the characters to have average human eyesight of roughly 24 fps.
Here Echoes is covering roughly 5 meters completely invisibly via sheer speed. Doing simple math we get a speed of 120 meters per second or nearly 270 miles per hour or about a third of the speed of sound. And this is a low-ball estimate as well. Over 10 times faster than what PS-4 will be blitzing me at... Furthermore, this is further supported by the fact that Act 1, a far slower form, was able to cross 50+ meters in a second or less. [The scan says the phone booth was 48 meters away but Echoes was several tens of meters in the air so the distance it would have to travel is significantly greater than 50 meters]
so this is now a telepathic attack oh goodie
Please refrain from selective reading. They're not. I made it specifically clear that these were subliminal messages and not actual mental attacks. Are television adverts telepathy for making you think you should buy their products? Are lullabies telepathy for making you drowsy? These are the same concepts Echoes' sounds implement just on a much more potent scale.
but i can bend the soundwaves and realize they aren't human,
So far you've only shown the ability to bend soundwaves so that the sounds of your choice are more audible. You won't be able to properly make that choice due to subliminal messages emitted by the sounds.
if only high willpower is needed to overcome it i have it strides.
Not just that. If you remember these subliminal messages were able to override complete mind control. Unless you are determined to the point of metal insanity, you won't be able to do so.
And P-S4 is a robot you haven't shown this power working on machines
Subliminal messages would work on anything that can hear and has cognitive reasoning skills. That's just the way it works. It's not a direct mental attack like you're thinking. It's more of a psychological one.
At the very least P-S4 will know which sounds are real or not and be completely unaffected.
With what in character knowledge?
while your batman level speed summon is busy waking you up
All it needs to wake me up is write "wake up" on me and the subliminal messages will do the rest as PS-4'S College Track Athlete level speed eventually reaches me after a minute or so.
So that would mean the instant the VIP falls asleep hitting the ground activating the trap ... ...Revealing your position and setting off your trap
There are still going to be sounds sending subliminal messages everywhere. You're casually ignoring that for some reason.
Looking at the whole chapter when someone touched a trapped railing the words/sounds disappear
Read better next time. I posted this set of scans multiple times already and you've admitted to reading through the encounter. What happens? She touched the trap, she was blown away several meters back, Koichi looked at the letters that still remained, triggered the trap once more unaffected by the winds, and the letters were still there. I'm actually amazed at how you can search for something, find the smallest details from a handful of panels to support your argument, disregard entire pages that prove this point wrong the same pages that have been shown to you prior to your mid-debate research, and ignore any logical reasoning in regards to this feat(s.) It's made clear that Echoes, and by extension it's user, can deactivate the sounds at will and they did so during the events you posted. The "boing" disappears because Yukako was already saved, the "boom" disappears because Kioshi had already won the battle and there was no need for it to remain.
While Echos gets one shotted by Jenny's scream trying to wake you up, since no durability feats were provided nor any reaction feats to suggest it could avoid/tank a sonic attack.
You posted one for me. Being strangled by an enraged Yukako who was shown to be able to tear down two-story houses with ease. And it was only slightly damaged as the only injury Koichi received from this was a somewhat bloodied lip.
It's been caught by slower
Taking things out of context once more, I see... First off, as I've shown already, Yukako's hair can completely envelop a two-story building practically instantly so it's by no means slow. Secondly, they assumed Yukako would be unconscious seeing as she just fell down from a great height and took a large explosion. They were caught off guard more than anything. This would be supported by the scan above where Echoes was moving completely invisible to Yukako.
see that's where Jenny's sonic scream comes in
Ok, but how will she get within range? She's all the way on the other side of the map with all sorts of sounds all around limiting her cognitive capabilities.
which completely breaks the rules on telepathy but i am glad your continued use of the word "mental" is present throughout your post
You're taking that word too literally. Read some other words of my post and stop using headcanon on a verse you don't even know.
Final Conclusion
My opponents are in a sticky situation. My powers just so happen to perfectly counter their abilities with the only real debate being the echolocation/sound bending vs sound spreading/subliminal messages. And even if they've won that debate, they actually have no counter to the trap that's been placed and thus have no way of transporting the VIP safely. They've resorted to out of context screenshots, blatantly incorrect information, having their characters act on information not available to them, using hypocritical arguments, and debating schematics. In all honesty, they deserve the win more than I do for being willing to stoop to that level.
Please refrain from selective reading. They're not. I made it specifically clear that these were subliminal messages and not actual mental attacks. Are television adverts telepathy for making you think you should buy their products? Are lullabies telepathy for making you drowsy? These are the same concepts Echoes' sounds implement just on a much more potent scale.
so now you are comparing them to advertisements which normal humans ignore on a daily basis? would you kindly (heh Bioshock reference) make up your mind on how effective these are. if they are advertisement level Jenny hears it and ignores it with Backlash's willpower
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Backlash had the sheer willpower to stand up and tank Helspont's energy blasts. Helspont was able to fight both Majestic and Union
That's actually less quantifiable than FTE combat speed. Missles have a wide range of speed and determining how fast these specific missiles are going is practically impossible. Whereas determining the minimum speed required to go completely FTE via sheer speed can be easily determined and I'll do so here using this scan as a baseline and lowballing the characters to have average human eyesight of roughly 24 fps.
Missiles from Sentinels tend to be fairly consistent in their speed, enough to cause many mutants with different speeds problems and these are advanced futuristic sentinels. but Angel (someone who moves at a blur on camera footage and can hang with people like Beast have had problems with Sentinel missiles, but don't let facts get in your way here)
Also Captain America moved FTE to Daredevil, the bullet timer. are we to suggest Captain America runs faster than a bullet now... your logic is pretty faulty, but its been faulty this entire match.
and Batman has disappeared in front of Superman more than a few times... Batman is light speed now? no
So far you've only shown the ability to bend soundwaves so that the sounds of your choice are more audible. You won't be able to properly make that choice due to subliminal messages emitted by the sounds.
ahh yes the advertisement level subliminal messages ignored by everyday humans... that is what you compared them to right? oh they get ignored. since my echolocation can show they aren't coming from human's im not worried
Not just that. If you remember these subliminal messages were able to override complete mind control. Unless you are determined to the point of metal insanity, you won't be able to do so.
you just compared this attack to advertisements and now they overwriting mind control? would you kindly make up your mind on what power level these are... overwriting mental takeover is a form of telepathy this is a telepathic attack or its advertisement level and gets ignored.
I hope the people deciding on who wins are able to see that he is claiming this is a subliminal message that completely overwrites telepathic control... which is not how subliminal messages work this is direct mind manipulation.
Subliminal messages would work on anything that can hear and has cognitive reasoning skills. That's just the way it works. It's not a direct mental attack like you're thinking. It's more of a psychological one.
that directly overtake mind control? your bullshitting right? you don't honestly believe anything that can directly alter the mind to the point it overwrites mind control is actually a subliminal message right? you're cheating plain and simple.
All it needs to wake me up is write "wake up" on me and the subliminal messages will do the rest as PS-4'S College Track Athlete level speed eventually reaches me after a minute or so.
your batman level speed is not impressive and i still move faster than you or your summon but hey if you wake up it means i get to embed you in the wall.
don't worry it won't kill you, just leave you deaf and probably a broken bone or 2. i'm holding back unlike you, you are using lethal force. you won't kill Barry with your explosion but you will kill me if im point blank
something i, once again, hope the people who are judging take notice of. point blank house level explosions should kill all beast master powered classes according to the durability limits.
Something even a child could do by waving their hand in front of themselves. So if we're applying this logic, PS-4 is only peak human level
So I guess this means Neo and Agent Smith are small child level now?
There's a clear cut difference from your video to this level combat. This downplay is ludicrous .
. And I'd honestly have Batman's speed than some 4th place Olympic athlete's speed.
Ha what a bunch of low ball lets see.... Barry literally zooms out of the wall at super speed. How much more clear can it be
That's clear cut mini speedster level of movement. The thing is Barry keeps the blur and after images for an extended duration it's done in a singular continuous movement. It's honestly laughable trying to compare moving on-screen so fast a whole person blurs and leaves afterimages from a distance to waving your hand in front of your face. But lets say you need even more evidence. Barry in a KGB video demonstrating his capabilities can casually hit 95 kph and kept rising, this part is very important since you might try to use this as a way to low ball Barry
That's no where near his top speed because immediately after it cuts to Barry running a city block in 2 seconds
Now city blocks vary in length and I won't pull random numbers from thin air buuuuut since you did I might as too, its only fair. An average city block in Manhattan is 80 m × 274 m seeing as he run the long side ( I mean come on look at that distance) he ran 274 meters in two seconds. Cutting that in half puts it at 137 m/s or 300 mph, faster than your Echos (even when Echos not that fast)
Read better next time. I posted this set of scans mutiple times already and you've admitted to reading through the encounter. What hapens? She touched the trap, she was blown away several meters back, Koichi looked at the letters that still remained, triggered the trap once more unaffected by the winds, and the letters were still there.
Oh please .One instance vs three others. Consistency from the other instances it shows that once activated the sounds automatically go away thats literally the definition of an outlier. It was only left just to demonstrate Echo's new ability it served a purpose to the story nothing more nothing less. It was the only time that has ever been the case.
I'm actually amazed at how you can search for something, find the smallest details from a handful of pannels to support your argument, disregard entire pages that prove this point wrong the same pages that have been shown to you prior to your mid debate research, and ignore any logical reasoning in regards to this feat(s.)
That's rich coming from someone who tried to use a coma dream as evidence, talk about spreading misinformation.
It's made clear that Echoes, and by extension it's user, can deactivate the sounds at will and they did so during the events you posted. The "boing" disappears because Yukako was already saved, the "boom" disappears because Kioshi had already won the battle and there was no need for it to remain.
Your literally saying the sounds go away automatically whether you realize it or not. Yukako triggers the "boing" its gone. Yukako triggers the boom its gone Yukako triggers the burn its gone. All without the user willingly and manually deactivating the sound. When did Kioshi deactivate the boing sound at will? Come on show me exactly when he does so oh wait you can't because he never does , the sounds deactivate as soon as they're triggered. Denying on panel evidence of the sounds being deactivated automatically makes me believe your the one doing the selective reading.
You posted one for me. Being strangled by an enraged Yukako who was shown to be able to tear down two story houses with ease. And it was only slightly damaged as the only injury Koichi received from this was a somewhat bloodied lip.
uh what? Your reading pretty badly now, because no house was torn down.
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Wrapping hair around a house doesn't even come close to tearing it down. Broken windows and torn up wooden floors don't constitute as "tearing down a house". That very idea is laughable. Nice head cannon.
Taking things out of context once more, I see... First off, as I've shown already, Yukako's hair can completely envelope a two story building practically instantly so it's by no means slow.
More head cannon I see....First off it took two-three pages for Yukako's hair to wrap around the house
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How in god name's is that instant?
Secondly, they assumed Yukako would be unconscious seeing as she just fell down from a great height and took a large explosion. They were caught off guard more than anything. This would be supported by the scan above where Echoes was moving completely invisible to Yukako.
Excuses if Echo was really that fast on a consistent basis it would have zipped away instantly from a weakened and damaged individual who it recently went FTE to.
Subliminal messages would work on anything that can hear and has cognitive reasoning skills. That's just the way it works. It's not a direct mental attacks like you're thinking. It's more of a psychological one.
Prove of that? Saying "thats just way it works" isn't a real argument.
With what in character knowledge?
The fact that it's a robot and won't be affected subliminal messages.
All it needs to wake me up is write "wake up" on me and the subliminal messages will do the rest as PS-4'S College Track Athlete level speed eventually reaches me after a minute or so.
What track level college track athlete can make their entire body blur and leaving afterimages with sheer travel speed? Maybe the one's in your head.
Here Echoes is covering roughly 5 meters completely invisibly via sheer speed. Doing simple math we get a speed of 120 meters per second or nearly 270 miles per hour or about a third of the speed of sound. And this is a low-ball estimate as well.
Low ball for characters you provided zero speed feats for to say that? And how do you know it covered 5 meters, almost 20 feet your making that number up
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Looking at the Echos starting position to its end position, it goes at most a foot or two. Less than a meter. Its still right in front of the door.
Nice an actual concrete distance instead of made up numbers and speculation. But unfortunately for you we're not given a time frame,there is no time on panel. Using the anime as better frame of reference it took echos 7 seconds to reach the phone booth
The phone was 48 meters away not 50+ like your trying to say. And even if it was 50 m/s that's only 111 mph, much lower than Barry's 300 mph.
[The scan says the phone booth was 48 meters away but Echoes was several tens of meters in the air so the distance it would have to travel is significantly greater than 50 meters]
Expect that not possible because echos has range of 50 meters
Talk about selective reading, Kioshi even says its just within his range. At best it was exactly 50 meters.
so now you are comparing them to advertisements which normal humans ignore on a daily basis? would you kindly (heh Bioshock reference) make up your mind on how effective these are. if they are advertisement level Jenny hears it and ignores it with Backlash's willpower
Terrible. Just terrible.
The advertisement statement was simply a way to explain what subliminal messages are and how they differentiate from telepathy. Nowhere did I make the claim that they were that level. In fact, in the following sentences I said the opposite of that.
"These are the same concepts Echoes' sounds implement just on a much more potent scale."
Missiles from Sentinels tend to be fairly consistent in their speed, enough to cause many mutants with different speeds problems and these are advanced futuristic sentinels. but Angel (someone who moves at a blur on camera footage and can hang with people like Beast have had problems with Sentinel missiles, but don't let facts get in your way here)
Still, haven't quantified anything.
Also Captain America moved FTE to Daredevil, the bullet timer. are we to suggest Captain America runs faster than a bullet now... your logic is pretty faulty, but its been faulty this entire match.
and Batman has disappeared in front of Superman more than a few times... Batman is light speed now? no
False equivalency. None of these characters or their speed feats are relevant to the topic at hand.
that directly overtake mind control? your bullshitting right?
It happened and I've shown it.
you don't honestly believe anything that can directly alter the mind to the point it overwrites mind control is actually a subliminal message right?
An argument from incredulity.
but you will kill me if im point blank
You admitted you won't attack from close quarters so this point is irrelevant.
something i, once again, hope the people who are judging take notice of. point blank house level explosions should kill all beast master powered classes according to the durability limits.
durability limit for physical class is Small Building-level and with MCU Like Cage as an example. He's walked out of similar situation with little to no trouble. But that's irrelevant. Plus you admitted that PS-4 would survive it without much problem so logical inconsistency much?
So I guess this means Neo and Agent Smith are small child level now?
False equivalency once more. And you seem to be misunderstanding my point in this section. I acknowledged that PS-4 would be faster than me, what I was doing here was implementing your stances on FTE combat that you applied to my argument onto your own. Also being faster than my summon isn't too relevant. All it has to do to get the job done is to write a command whereas you would still have to cover a significant amount of distance in the same amount of time
Oh please .One instance vs three others. Consistency from the other instances it shows that once activated the sounds automatically go away thats literally the definition of an outlier. It was only left just to demonstrate Echo's new ability it served a purpose to the story nothing more nothing less. It was the only time that has ever been the case.
It's not an outlier and calling it such because it was merely a plot thread is a cop-out. But if you want another instance, here. In that scan, we see that his sounds can last for as long as he wants, possibly forever even [which is not out of the realm of possibility seeing as other Stand abilities have the ability to persist for a literal eternity]
That's rich coming from someone who tried to use a coma dream as evidence, talk about spreading misinformation.
In all fairness, the feats presented in that sequence are relative to others Barry has performed, comparatively speaking but yes. That was a mistake on my part.
Your literally saying the sounds go away automatically whether you realize it or not. Yukako triggers the "boing" its gone. Yukako triggers the boom its gone Yukako triggers the burn its gone. All without the user willingly and manually deactivating the sound. When did Kioshi deactivate the boing sound at will? Come on show me exactly when he does so oh wait you can't because he never does , the sounds deactivate as soon as they're triggered. Denying on panel evidence of the sounds being deactivated automatically makes me believe your the one doing the selective reading.
If it didn't already, this is where your lack of knowledge of the verse shows. You're looking for some sort of clear and explicit demonstration of Echoes deactivating the ability. The problem is that things like this don't happen and it's common knowledge that Stands can simply deactivate their abilities at will when they don't need them anymore. For example, here's Crazy Diamond deactivating the wall created by his ability despite not being there even though we know that his "restoration" ability can last for at least several months [Angelo was turned into a rock towards the beginning of Part 4 and eventually stayed that way long enough to become a local tourist attraction.]
uh what? Your reading pretty badly now, because no house was torn down.
*sigh*
I guess... I'm at fault here? Wrong word choice/phrasing on my part I suppose... Sure I'll take the blame for that one. Would you have preferred if I used the phrase "ruined the house?" Because of something along the lines of "significantly damaged" was what I was going for.
More head cannon I see....First off it took two-three pages for Yukako's hair to wrap around the house
How in god name's is that instant?
I said, "practically instantly." I like how you underlined the word instantly and completely disregarded the word before it just to get this cheeky jab in.
Excuses if Echo was really that fast on a consistent basis it would have zipped away instantly from a weakened and damaged individual who it recently went FTE to.
Uhm Acktually, I never said that Echoes could perform any instantaneous movement. You're putting words in my mouth.
Ok. I'm done being petty. But no, getting caught off guard is getting caught off guard and he wasn't trying to fight anymore anyway.
Prove of that? Saying "thats just way it works" isn't a real argument.
Proof of what? That subliminal messages affect your subconscious mind and thus your cognitive reasoning? Fine. Although it should be common knowledge.
The fact that it's a robot and won't be affected subliminal messages.
A robot with a very human-like conscious.
What track level college track athlete can make their entire body blur and leaving afterimages with sheer travel speed? Maybe the one's in your head.
Well according to either you or your partner, things such as moving FTE aren't quantifiable speed feats and will be discarded as such. Leaving afterimages and blurs is objectively easier than becoming completely invisible via sheer speed.
Low ball for characters you provided zero speed feats for to say that?
Well, for reference another "average human" in Jojo could bullet time fairly well and 24 fps is the average human eyesight in our own world. It's pretty clear that these characters have faster reflexes than normal people in our world.
And how do you know it covered 5 meters, almost 20 feet your making that number up
The word "roughly" implies an estimate.
Looking at the Echos starting position to its end position, it goes at most a foot or two. Less than a meter. Its still right in front of the door.
Well, comparing to Koichi, Echoes [from head to tail] is a little over 2/3 Koichi's height of whom is canonically 157 cm tall, we have a rough estimate of Echoes' body length to be a bit over a full meter. And in the scan posted, it had traveled several times its apparent body length [although the artistic perspective in the shots makes it somewhat difficult to judge.]
Nice an actual concrete distance instead of made up numbers and speculation. But unfortunately for you we're not given a time frame,there is no time on panel. Using the anime as better frame of reference it took echos 7 seconds to reach the phone booth
The anime isn't the source material. And the noticeably long trail of Stand Energy present in the manga, it makes it clear that this action was done within a much shorter time frame.
Expect that not possible because echos has range of 50 meters
Talk about selective reading, Kioshi even says its just within his range. At best it was exactly 50 meters
A Stand's Range refers to the distance a Stand can be from its user at any given time, not the distance it can travel. [Uliana and her summon are not affected by this limitation as her summon is "independent" in this scenario] And the reason why I made the claim of 50+ meters is because he traveled upwards first to survey the area. Around the range of 10-20 meters or so [again, perspective make it somewhat difficult but enough for a rough estimate] and this is where the math comes in.
As long as b=/>14 which is not out of the realm of possibility than 50+m/s is accurate. And this is without accounting for the curve in its path. Furthermore,this is ACT 1 which is far slower than ACT 2. So slow in fact that it's considered by some to have pretty much no speed yet ACT 2 leaves some Stands in the dust in terms of speed.
And even if it was 50 m/s that's only 111 mph, much lower than Barry's 300 mph
It doesn't need to be faster. All it has to do is write a single command [maybe two or three if it wants to wake Zane/the VIP up as well.] the movements required to make these actions wouldn't even equate to a tenth of the distance PS-4 would have to travel so it could honestly wake all three persons at before either of you get here and still pull some additional shenanigans.
@avaliantimge: @sazzmi: @major_hellstrom: Alright, this was a tough one for Luna and I to decide on and we almost went with coin flip, tbh. We're going to give the match to Uliana and Zane however -- here are some points we thought were strong on each side.
Uliana showed strong character knowledge and had some good counter-work; however, they failed to talk about PS-4's resistance to the Echo power to a degree that we would've liked to see and also we'd like to see more regarding the trap being set off if they hit the ground due to the sound-induced sleep. Also -- would've liked to see more from Zane.
For Jenny & PS-4 we liked your overall strategy and thought it was strong; however, when the battle began we wanted to see you adapt more, we also think some of your claims were poorly supported in regards to evidence presented and text/context to go with it.
Like I said, this was a close one and we thought about flipping a coin, but alas, here we are.
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