616 Rhino vs DCEU Doomsday

Random Encounter

Bloodlusted

Win By Death

Standard Equipment

Takes Place In Football Stadium

Doomsday. Rhino has some ridiculous high-ends, sure, but he's not consistently hitting with the force of a nuke with his punches. That would have insane implications for Peter's durability.

And he isn't strong enough to tank a nuke either, imo. Doomsday has this.

Yes the guy who was brawling with high tiers on the regular can't hit any stronger than a nuke lol what is this logic, @tonymartial taken over your account or something? Is the counter argument going to be "well he jobbed" like that matters or detracts from those feats?

@professorrespect: Most of those instances were Classic variations of the characters and are fairly outdated. Also, it isn't consistent for Rhino to be a high tier. If he DID have nuke level AP, he'd oneshot Peter everytime he tagged him.

If Rhino wasn't a Spidey villain his high-ends would maybe have some merit, but he almost exclusively is and isn't treated like a high-tier in his appearances.

Depends who the writer is

@professorrespect:

.....and? I know you are mostly a LA guy, but most "Classic" fan-canon understandings of power levels mean nothing, they are just made-up terminology to describe certain eras: it only works for maybe Hulk in the 60's when he was way weaker due to less Gamma or Thor with his time travel stuff. This isn't DC where they had a actual full different canon for characters with Pre/Post Crisis versions. Rhino back in the day hasn't changed from today at all, unless you prove otherwise of course with relevant information.

Typically, older comics provide far more inconsistent feats than newer comics. Marvel might not be as bad as DC, with characters like Silver Age Superman being notoriously powerful, but it is still undeniable that there was more inconsistency the farther back you go. You have street-level characters dodging light-speed lasers, statements putting them at nanosecond reaction time, and characters like Classic Strange who were at completely different tiers than they are now.

Just because there wasn't a canon nerf or amp in-universe doesn't mean we can't recognize how vastly different writing is now than then and omit certain instances that are outliers (like Spider-Man beating Firelord, though that isn't really "classic" but it applies.) If Rhino's only instances of trading punches with high tiers are from several decades ago and he doesn't have anything else showing that he can replicate that level of power since then, why would it be seen as consistent?

Based on.......nothing? Not much of a consistency there.

I mean, how many instances of Rhino being a high-tier are there? I am only aware of a few and they are rather old, which is why I am dismissive of the consistency of these claims. I'm open to being proven wrong, but I haven't seen anything reliably showing that he is a high tier.

So by this logic every high tier in Marvel doesn't have "nuke level AP" because Spidey didn't explode upon impact. By this logic any high tier that doesn't explode/one shot a street tier isn't nuke level lol.

... No, because Spidey doesn't fight high tiers on the regular. Spider-Man doesn't have many showings of him getting hit by Hulk, Thor, or Juggernaut and walking away, because they would explode Peter if they wanted to, so the writers don't face them against each other. I seriously don't understand your argument here. How would street tiers surviving serious hits from high tiers not make them extremely durable to the point of tanking a nuke? We can dismiss a few instances of PIS and bad writing, but if street tiers are getting constantly hit by Thor and Hulk and walking away, they aren't street tiers anymore. Wolverine is pretty much the only exception that could apply, and he's obviously a special case.

Oh lord not this overused BS "he's a Spidey villain so he's a street tier" nonsense again, thought you were better than that.

It's said often because it has some reason to it. Obviously, Rhino isn't street tier and neither are all Spidey villains; Spidey is high-street to low mid himself. But the fact that Spider-Man can survive his hits consistently at least brings Rhino's "high tier" striking into question. So, no, I didn't say that Rhino was street tier, but yes, his being a Spidey villain is problematic for his case as a high tier. There is a huge gap between Spider-Man and Hulk, just because Rhino isn't street doesn't make him high either.

Sandman is a Spidey villain and he's scrapping with high tiers. Morlun is a Spidey villain and he's scrapping with high tiers. Mysterio has fooled numerous high tiers with the same tech he uses for Spidey. Venom and Carnage are Spidey villains and frequently fight with guys above his tier. Black Tarantula fodderizes street tiers and he's a Spidey villain. This reasoning is not only wrong, but it's just stupidly easy to debunk.

The last sentence is ironic because your examples are all vastly different than Rhino. Let's see.

Sandman is a Spidey villain and he's scrapping with high tiers.

Sandman has a lot of hax and is hard to beat because of his versatility and adaptability. You can't really put him down with brute force, so you need different abilities yourself or creativity to beat him. Sandman is not a high tier, either, but he is very difficult to beat. This is why context matters. Spider-Man is superhumanly intelligent, so he beats many of his villains by improvizing environmental solutions or inventing things to beat them. Peter always has to outsmart Sandman and find creative solutions to beat him. However, Sandman does not hit with nuke-level strength. Rhino has nothing but physicals and a horn going for himself, so when he fights high tiers it's not because of his unique powerset like Flint, but his raw physicals. There's simply no getting around the fact that Rhino has to be consistently hitting with nuke-level forces for his high-ends to be consistent, while every other villain you list does not.

Morlun is a Spidey villain and he's scrapping with high tiers.

He's also probably Spidey's most powerful villain on a consistent basis and it is pretty clear Spider-Man needs intelligence or luck to win against him. Also, he isn't hitting with nuke-level force. He is decisively stronger than Peter, yes, but he also has hit him many, many times without killing or KOing him. Unless Spider-Man could tank a nuke, nobody that he repeatedly survives hits from can hit as hard as one.

Mysterio has fooled numerous high tiers with the same tech he uses for Spidey.

Seriously? Is this supposed to be even remotely equivalent to the discussion at hand? Spider-Man is far smarter than most people in Marvel period, including high tiers. He also has Spider-Sense and a history of dealing with Mysterio. Obviously Hulk, Wendigo, Thing, and other brute-force characters can get fooled by Mysterio; they have no way of dealing with the illusions. Peter not being fooled (which he has, he just improved after) by Mysterio doesn't make him a high tier and the opposite doesn't make them street tiers. This isn't even remotely applicable.

Venom and Carnage are Spidey villains and frequently fight with guys above his tier.

See, but you omitted "high tier" from this because they don't fight high tiers, and they fall under the Sandman category here. They aren't high tier in physicals and can't punch above Peter because of physicals, but because of versatility, hax, and a unique power set. Furthermore, they have obvious exploitable weaknesses like sound and fire that Peter exploits to win almost all of their fights. Venom and Carnage might be above Pete in physicals, but they're also not even close to most mid-tiers, let alone anyone above.

Black Tarantula fodderizes street tiers and he's a Spidey villain.

That's honestly more of a testament to Spider-Man's placement at the edge of street to lower mid than anything. Spider-Man could fodderize most street tiers if he wanted to as well.

Based on.....nothing? Great reasoning there. Rhino's got plenty of fights to prove otherwise, you can try and quote anti-feats if you want but there's way more of him actually fighting at that level. Not that it's needed because, well, DCEU Doomsday is not a comic high tier, so he can just get his ass kicked anyway.

I'm willing to bet that there are far more instances of Rhino hitting Spider-Man and Peter surviving than there are of Rhino hurting high tiers with his strikes. Unless you can provide evidence that Rhino constantly holds back against Peter despite being constantly plagued and foiled by him (which wouldn't make sense even then because he could just KO him every time), you have to concede one of two possibilities:

1. Spider-Man could survive a nuke going off in his face
2. Rhino does not hit with the force of a nuke.

Rhino being a nuke-level striker (which he would undoubtedly be higher than if he was brawling with high tiers, which are decisively above nuke-level) is contradictory to every time he has ever hit Peter and not instantly KOed or killed him.

DCEU Doomsday would win unless Rhino has the enchanted horn then 616 Rhino stomps but only f he has the magic horn that he used on Thor , however, he could give DCEU Doomsday a good beating without the horn but ultimatley 616 would lose

DD ftw

@thespartanb345t dude I literally made a whole thread on how Spider-Man is on par with the thing in physical strength based off feats calling Spider-Man a street tier is disrespectful and don’t say the feats aren’t consistent when they are.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/spider-man-is-not-a-fodder-to-the-thing-strength-w-2297898/?page=2#js-message-80

@professorrespect Don’t you agree with my statement aswell

Ot:616 rhino better feats even 616 cap can solo

@professorrespect: So you think Spider-Man can take nuke-level punches?

DD

As always ProfessorDISrespect arguing against logic and facts just because he wants to be that guy who goes against the system trying to reach high amounts of cope, this guy is so full of himself and bullshit at the same time, it looks like he's playing a character for so long that he lost himself already. Cut it, man.

@miguelcervantes: bro you also just haven’t read a comic book why don’t you look at his feats and stop being one those guys that go along with the crowd and say Spider-Man a street tier

@power_hunter: Spider-Man has fought with and enraged hulk and taken a punch that could destroy the planet i made a whole thread proving Spider-Man is thing level strength but clearly you haven’t read it or just ignore his feats straight up

@demogoblin1414: he would win without this is dceu doomsday not comic regular rhino solos fought blow to blow with savage hulk

Shut up ''Spider-Man is Thing lvl'' guy, nobody cares about you or your threads of Spider-Man against High Tiers, stop doing them your low mid tier Spider-Man is not that strong!

I only asked a question lol. Take a chill pill.

@miguelcervantes: bro I’m not wrong you just a dumbass who can’t accept Spider-Man is thing tier lol read a damn comic book his high tiers are pretty consistent too which it aswell

@power_hunter: my apologies miguel passed me off

@miguelcervantes: and haven’t multiple people proved you wrong and that you don’t know what your talking about while I actually have proved every “debunk” wrong with a debunk of my own

Did Doomsday even manage to defeat Wonder Woman?

I already answered this. Fact is that DCEU Doomsday is not a comic high tier by any reasonable metric, so he's getting stomped. The idea that a guy who literally floored Hulk-level beings can't hit harder than a nuke is beyond any form of reasonability.

@death4bunnies

@professorrespect:Ok this is getting too complicated and most of these points aren't central to the debate so I'll narrow it down to what matters:

1. If you consider Rhino nuke+ level because of his wealth of experience against other high tiers, could you provide some scans to demonstrate it is a consistent occurrence in his appearances? I'm not saying it isn't true, it just isn't true as far as I am aware because I don't read comics anymore, and when I used to it wasn't enough to keep up with every instance that may have occurred. I also don't think it makes sense provided the logic I previously explained.
2. Even if there are many instances I would still value the consistency of him hitting Spider-Man more than his fighting other characters, considering he is primarily a Spider-Man villain who does not demonstrate nuke-level potency against Spidey.

Erroneous argument. Rhino even a few months ago was clashing with Juggernaut. Not to mention he's been fighting high tiers every decade, not just "several decades ago" so again you are pretty much wrong on all fronts.

Scrapping with high-tiers? Plenty. The question is more about the lack of evidence from yourself than me though.

Not really, you claimed that there are plenty of instances, and I asked for some evidence, but you keep saying there are plenty without providing scans. I can't prove that they didn't happen, obviously.

Would they? He's taken shots from all of them, Juggs especially who's beaten the dogshit out of him.

See but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Either Hulk, Thor, and Juggernaut are nuke-level+ when serious (obviously true) and them not exploding Spider-Man is bad writing and inconsistent, or Spider-Man is nuke-level+ in durability and him being hurt by much lower levels of force is bad writing and inconsistent, or those high tiers aren't nuke-level. Considering Rhino began as a Spidey villain and stayed one pretty consistently since, I'm banking on the idea that he isn't nuke-level because more inconsistency would result from him being nuke-level (like every time he doesn't kill a street tier on impact) than the opposite.

Not really. There's plenty of examples of a character being a villain to someone else but overperforming: Venom in the 90's was fighting and successfully defeating the likes of Juggernaut, for instance.

Again, inconsistent. Unless Venom got a buff or Juggs got a nerf it is bad writing and inconsistent. Venom is not a high tier, Juggs is.

And you already try to cover by going for the "hax/adaptability" argument, despite the fact that Flint likes to brawl in a LOT of his fights and his stats are pretty up there, not his "hax" etc.

I mean, he's made of sand is my point. He isn't going down from brute force because he can regenerate and doesn't have a normal body but makes his out of sand. If you want to show instances of him being hit by Hulk and friends and staying intact, there are ten times more instances of Spider-Man-level opponents chipping away at him. Which is more consistent?

So any high tier he's ever stunned or knocked out is sub-nuke then? Silly.

Either that or he's inconsistent and badly written. Sandman cannot simultaneously be knocking out high tiers and failing to knock out Spider-Man without explicit buffs and nerfs between each time these happen unless Spidey is nuke-level, which is equally silly.

Alongside Iron Man, Doctor Strange, Ms Sinister, but do keep trying to lowball with these examples lol.

Literally means nothing, that doesn't showcase Peter's power levels but his intellect. We know Peter is comparable or better than all three of them, that is irrelevant to how durable or strong he is.

There's instances of Thing hitting street tiers and them surviving, can we say the same for that dynamic?

Yes, we can say that would be inconsistent because there are far more instances of Thing being a high tier than him being a street tier. It goes reverse too. Rhino simply doesn't have enough instances of him being a high tier to overpower every instance of him failing to kill or KO Peter and other similar-level durability characters because he is far more likely to fight Spidey than Hulk and friends.

No, obviously not. You can't have Spidey turn to red mist from a strike for obvious reasons. Nevertheless Rhino has numerous high tier performances, not that those are needed for LA Doomsday lol.

Well, all I have to say is that Rhino isn't consistently nuke-level, hence my original statement about high-ends. Wolverine is a great example of this at a more extreme level. He survives attacks from Hulk and friends all the time without being KOed. However, he also gets KOed by much fewer, weaker strikes and forces more often (and he fights high tiers a lot, more than Rhino.) I would say Logan is sub-nuke in durability (as far as not getting KOed goes) because, while high-ends help him look really strong, he is more consistently getting KOed by less.

Despite this false choice and the complete lack of knowledge on the thread so far, the facts are pretty simple: you can apply this logic to nearly any high tier and find them not red-misting fodder or street tiers, doesn't mean they can't hit with a nuke-level force though lol.

Because I acknowledge that those instances are inconsistent for the high tiers, just like Rhino being nuke-level is inconsistent. You can find inconsistencies in every comic character because there is almost a century of comics for many characters that have wildly different situations with different writers. I could provide dozens of canon instances of Batman being far above Spider-Man in every way just with standard gear, because Batman has been around for a long time. Take the most common portrayal of the character, and also recent portrayals if it is current versions, and then decide what is consistent and what isn't. Rhino can't be both failing to KO Peter and KOing high tiers.

Rhino being able to stagger numerous high tier threats means he definitely does hit more than that for sure, unless all of them are sub-nuke etc, simple

OR, just maybe, those are instances of bad writing and inconsistency. If there are 20 showings of Rhino hitting Spider-Man and not killing or KOing him (there should be at least that if not more in their decades of appearances together, even though Peter usually dodges he does get caught enough for this to be true), and 10 instances of Rhino staggering or KOing high tiers, which instance is the inconsistency? Unless Rhino received an amp and nerf in between each instance and is currently riding a high-tier amp, you cannot reconcile these open contradictions. Otherwise, you can just pick which you want to be true for a certain debate on one day and then switch the next. Not saying you do, but it is inherently problematic to acknowledge that both levels of Rhino (failing to KO Peter and succeeding against high tiers) exist and not deny one due to inconsistency.

What's Rhino going to do? Dude loses to Spider-Man.

Warning for insults.

Rhino should win this, right? Just by the fact of existing longer?

@xd_ist: he does

@frozen: Spider-Man stronger Than the thing my friend and rhino has fought and even match strength with the thing

Rhino is as strong as the thing he beats this dceu doomsday

@thespartanb345t: just admit you dont like when Spider-Man is above street tier (which is cope) and Don’t like it when the rhino is either I since that proves rhino is as strong as the thing and Spider-Man consistently beats and has overpowered him in multiple occasions physically which funny enough puts him above the thing in strength

Rhino bodies, several instances of fighting high tiers

Fax

DD

@professorrespect:

AKA "my points aren't that ironed out so I'll stick to some few of them instead"

No, I have real life things to do outside of fun Comic Vine debates that affect my well-being, so I'd rather not spend unnecessary time on less central points of this discussion that not have as much impact on the core of my argument. I certainly could spend more time than I should discussing and debunking every single aspect of this conversation, but our posts would only get longer and longer and it would be less conducive to both of us coming to a shared understanding. It is not productive to argue over every example and disagreement to be had in this discussion, so streamlining it is just in both of our best interests. Trust me, none of your arguments have me quivering in my boots.

(I said) "If you consider Rhino nuke+ level because of his wealth of experience against other high tiers, could you provide some scans to demonstrate it is a consistent occurrence in his appearances"

Can you prove that it isn't? That's been your whole argument so far and I've seen nothing to suggest as such.

This is just absurd. Can I prove that Spider-Man doesn't have any showings against high tiers? I have asked you repeatedly to provide evidence of your claims that Rhino brawls consistently with high tiers and each time I've been met with "no you can't prove me wrong though." Remember, you tagged me first in response to my post in the thread. I said my opinion, you tagged me and challenged it and so I responded. And every time I ask for you to provide evidence for your claims (since I can't prove a negative in this case, that's unfalsifiable) you just retort with "no you bring evidence," when in most cases it doesn't even make sense to reply with that. You've dismissed a bunch of my arguments with "no proof, baseless" and nothing else, as if you disagreeing with me means I have no reasoning or base for my claims.

But since you clearly won't provide any evidence until I do for whatever reason, I will attach some Rhino anti-feats at the end, which are far more prevalent than instances of him being nuke+ level.

All of his instances of staggering them are "bad writing" AKA another variation of the PIS argument lol. That's what your argument boils down to in the end. It's just a bad PIS-justification.

There's the same amount for Flint and he's probably got even more performances of working against high tiers and the like. The idea that those can be removed because of the above is simply silly; it actively encourages ignoring the reality of the feats to justify the most common denominator. Being the most common does not make it the one and only reality of things, though again I don't think I need Rhino to be high tier for DCEU Doomsday

Neither does the vast amount of high tiers who have tagged Spidey given he didn't explode on contact.

That's a poor way of measuring up the logic. By this we could say Sandman is sub-nuke level despite him knocking around actual high tiers like Thing and Hulk, and that's obviously not true unless we scale those guys up there as well. Of course the idea that both of these guys are like that because they didn't red mist Spidey is beyond ludicrous again given the nature of his feats, but still.

Doesn't work that way. Flint has been staggered and hurt from regular shots because he hardens himself to the point where he can actually feel shots, and as I've explained his physicals are on that level.

Or your logic just isn't very good. Not to mention this is all for DCEU Doomsday, which isn't exactly much to look at.

All of this comes down to the inconsistency problem. Yes, Peter has tanked high tiers' hits, and yes, Peter is decisively not nuke+ in durability. Both cannot be true so one is inconsistent based on the fact that it is wildly out of the normal range of their capabilities and would ruin the realism of the story if it became true.

Again, erroneous argument. Flint hits hard enough to handle himself in fights with guys who are high tiers for sure, the idea that all of those are null and void because Spidey takes the hits as well is pretty silly.

You're acting like Spidey doesn't tank high tiers all the time. The idea that we'd have to throw all of those out as well because they aren't the most common outcome is beyond any form of reasonability.

You're trying to have the best of both worlds in a paradoxical situation. This line especially makes zero sense when you think about it:

The idea that we'd have to throw all of those out as well because they aren't the most common outcome is beyond any form of reasonability.

Uh, no it isn't "beyond any form of reasonability," to disregard wildly inconsistent showings. Actually think about what you're saying here. You're saying that, just because Spider-Man is far, far below nuke-level in durability in the vast majority of his appearances, doesn't mean the few dozen times that he is way above nuke-level durability are not applicable? There is no way to interpret that sentence other than "you cannot throw out showings of Spider-Man tanking high tiers just because they are inconsistent (ie. these showings are applicable and Spider-Man has high tier level durability)." If you can't disregard Spider-Man getting hit by high tiers as inconsistent, then you can apply these showings to claim that he has nuke+ level durability. Hulk, Thor, Juggernaut, and similar high tiers are far above the best nuke ever in attack potency. You yourself said:

Or your logic just isn't very good. Not to mention this is all for DCEU Doomsday, which isn't exactly much to look at.

Nevertheless Rhino has numerous high tier performances, not that those are needed for LA Doomsday lol.

Being the most common does not make it the one and only reality of things, though again I don't think I need Rhino to be high tier for DCEU Doomsday lol.

And Doomsday clearly no-sold a nuke on-screen then got more powerful after he tanked it. So you clearly agree that Marvel high tiers like Thor, Hulk, and Juggernaut are way above an average nuke, probably far above the most powerful nuke ever from the way you continuously phrased this argument.

So even if we scaled Spider-Man down from what you think a high tier's attack potency is because of his wide range of durability feats at different levels to a middle ground of sorts (though you seem to advocate for the exact opposite here,) it would still be decisively somewhere in the nuke range or higher because high tiers are way above nuke-level. Your argument advocates a Spider-Man with a minimum of nuke-level durability and likely far higher. How does that make sense?

Again, erroneous argument. By your logic we'd need to handwave a ton of his showings because he hasn't killed a main character like Spidey yet, despite Spidey saying that Rhino is out of his league and that he's generally lucky against him. Not to mention Rhino keeps getting feats to disprove your stuff even recently, so obviously that logic that doesn't hold up to actual facts.

How can you judge what's inconsistent for them or not with no baseline? Guesswork? That's what it looks like here.

The issue with this is that it again handwaves decades of showings and basically undermines any attempt to actually look at the comics and judge.

All of these quotes apply to the same logic and argument you made for Spider-Man having a minimum of nuke-level durability (some of it referencing my replies of Spider-Man tanking high tiers being inconsistent) and just apply it to Rhino.

His intellect = illusion resistance? Mysterio would disagree, it's the smarter people who get fooled more easily according to him.

Illusion resistance has absolutely no relevance to any part of this debate. I'm responding specifically to this as an example of why I am streamlining the conversation and not scrutinizing over each and every disagreement as if all of them had equal importance. You could be completely right about your Mysterio example, or I could be right, but us figuring out Mysterio's effectiveness against high tiers would get us nowhere near a conclusion relevant to this thread.

We know Peter is comparable or better than all three of them

In what world is Peter better than Strange in anything? Science maybe, everything else no.

The word ORbeing a very important part of that sentence would clarify this question rather quickly.

You asked for counter-evidence in response to nothing, because you've produced none.

You have no proof of any of this being true.

(I said) "If you consider Rhino nuke+ level because of his wealth of experience against other high tiers, could you provide some scans to demonstrate it is a consistent occurrence in his appearances"

Can you prove that it isn't? That's been your whole argument so far and I've seen nothing to suggest as such.

The fact that you continue to say this same argument over and over is ridiculous. It literally doesn't get worse than:

"Hey I disagree with you, but I could be ignorant about this topic that you keep bringing up, could you provide some evidence for those claims so I can understand better?"

"No, you have to provide the evidence because it's your argument."

That is the exact interaction that we have had, multiple times, and I am not exaggerating. I first said:

I mean, how many instances of Rhino being a high-tier are there? I am only aware of a few and they are rather old, which is why I am dismissive of the consistency of these claims. I'm open to being proven wrong, but I haven't seen anything reliably showing that he is a high tier.

To which you replied:

Scrapping with high-tiers? Plenty. The question is more about the lack of evidence from yourself than me though.

Beginning the trend of saying "I'm right, but you have to provide evidence" without posting scans. And then:

(me) Not really, you claimed that there are plenty of instances, and I asked for some evidence, but you keep saying there are plenty without providing scans. I can't prove that they didn't happen, obviously.

(you) You asked for counter-evidence in response to nothing, because you've produced none. (later) You have no proof of any of this being true.

So after I admit I could be wrong and give you an open opportunity to show me, you refuse and insist that I proof my own argument.

You asked for counter-evidence in response to nothing, because you've produced none. You have no proof of any of this being true.

This statements in particular are dripping with irony. You haven't provided any evidence either. You pull out the "you have no proof card" every reply as if we both of our arguments aren't completely void of evidence entirely. Neither of us have been using evidence. You have claimed that Rhino has many instances of being a high tier over decades, I claim I think that he has more instances of him being much lower in power, and neither of us provide scans. The only difference is that I never presumed to know every comic that has ever been written, so I admitted that I could be unaware of some of these showings and asked for you to display them. You did the opposite and dismissed every sentence of me saying that Rhino has more low showings than high tier brawls with "this is false and baseless" as if there couldn't possibly be many examples of him being much lower in power level in the 60-odd year time span that he has existed as a fictional character.

So I will provide evidence of Rhino being much lower than a high tier since you refuse to do the opposite, and I expect you to provide an equal amount of showings of him being a high tier as I provide, since those instances are so common. If you refuse to provide scans in return and still claim that high tier Rhino is consistent after I brought evidence of the opposite to the table, you truly have no leg to stand on anymore.

So, without further ado I present:

Rhino being decisively not nuke-level:

.

Gets knocked out by Luke Cage.

.

Here's a small sample to start off with. 9 or 10 showings of Rhino being a high-tier shouldn't be too hard to find, considering the apparent decades of that being a consistent thing. I'll be ready with more once you find an equal amount of high-tier showings for Rhino. And remember, you shouldn't be calling showings inconsistent without providing your own evidence, that's inherently baseless and illogical.

@thespartanb345t: you realize Spider-Man is as strong or even stronger than the rhino or thing.and how many times has rhino walked into those punches and knocked himself out(every time) and saying rhino is street tier for physically getting beat up by Spider-Man is stupid bro Spider-Man literally as strong or stronger than the Thing. I literally give you tons of feats proving rhino is high tier in physical strength by taking blows from savage hulk/juggernaut/ the thing and also matching the thing in strength and even the hulk. he may not be as durable as the thing but he is as strong him

@professorrespect:

No, can you prove Rhino is somehow Spidey-tier as you suggest all the time? Can you show anything to reliably back up your point any? You've said so much, I haven't yet seen any evidence to actually make your claim able to be reliably taken on properly.

What? You haven't even challenged the idea that Rhino hits Spider-Man without KOing him a good amount and I've said it multiple times. If you did challenge that claim by saying that Rhino doesn't ever hit Spidey or something then I'd have reason to bring evidence, but you accepted my premise by saying "it doesn't matter that he hits Spidey" so I didn't need to prove it.

Also, it's pretty clear that Rhino is a good deal more physically imposing than Peter while still being relatively similar to his strength (maybe twice or three times as strong but not high tier) and I'm not going to spend needless time proving that unless you specifically challenge my assertion as untrue.

Do you have any?

I mean that's a start but clearly just dumping anti-feats isn't going to be any effective start to any debate, especially ones that aren't cited or have any credibility.

We are way past the point of an "effective start." Half of your points are "no proof" and "you're wrong, this is absurd" without further clarification. You're statement above of "do you have any" is literally in response to my explanation of why it makes zero sense to just dismiss a logical argument with "proof?" And then you do it again. I'm seriously disappointed because I previously got the impression that you were a good debater, but now you bring the most juvenile repetitive arguments in post after post. If I didn't have preconceived respect for your debating before this I would have thought you were trolling.

The idea that you are trying to equate Pete's feats like this is just completely silly lol. By this degree you'd have to say that every high tier that has landed hits (and there are plenty that have) were also sub-nuke, or that every single one of them is either PIS/inconsistent by nature. The issue is that there's too many to make that.

You aren't even debating at this point. You didn't create an argument here or respond to me at all, you regurgitated the same statement you made previously that I am responding to in these quotes. I have already explained why I wouldn't have to say that high tiers who have landed hits are sub-nuke. The only piece of new information is you claiming that every high tier would have to be inconsistent, but like... yes. That's what I'm saying. Do you really think Hulk isn't inconsistent from time to time? 60 years of existence in comics and he will have many sub-nuke showings. Those just aren't consistent with how powerful he usually is. I don't understand how you just reject the concept of inconsistent showings as a whole; if you are averse to throwing out showings of Spider-Man tanking hits from high tiers then what showings can't be used at this point? The problem is your argument for Spider-Man tanking high tiers being useable can apply to literally any inconsistent showing.

Not at all, your line of reasoning is trying to condense decades of feats into one streamlined line of outcomes, despite the wealth of feats to suggest otherwise. By your own reasoning there can only be one level of power that he can operate that; everything else above has to be PIS. That's absurd to any reasonable degree.

That's... what consistent means.

That's also just how the world works. Mike Tyson at his best has one level of power that he can operate at, anything else is below his best for different reasons. Even then, those levels are still pretty close to his peak because performance doesn't vary wildly. To suggest that Spider-Man would sometimes be able to shake mountains with his blows and then fail to destroy a building the next week is absurd; obviously, that is not logical or consistent without a good explanation and one would have to go.

Extreme outliers that may occur a few dozen times over 60+ years are considered outliers. Spider-Man is probably city-block level in striking at most and maybe a little higher in durability. He's decisively not high-tier. Even if he got hit by high tiers 100 times across his massive span of comic runs (he probably hasn't) there would still be about 10,000 anti-feats directly contradicting these showings. Consistency is relative to the number of showings a character has. Obviously, the more showings, the more outliers will exist.

You haven't proven any line of inconsistency with Spidey or with Rhino.

And Rhino has brawled with all of these people, even Juggs just a month earlier lol. Your argument has devolved from "Classic Rhino had the high ends" to "well he loses to Spidey so he must be sub-nuke" in just a few posts, it's not hard to see how that's happened. As I predicted from the first post, this has gone to those depths.

Well, yeah, I accepted the idea that Rhino maybe has some instances of brawling with high tiers across decades. I honestly have no idea, but it doesn't matter to my argument so instead of arguing over something I'm already unsure of, I'll argue over something I know for certain: Rhino being high tier is not consistent, regardless of when it happened.

It's funny that you criticize me for adjusting my argument when I could be wrong or get new information because that's exactly what you have failed to do this entire time. Adjusting to new information is good debating. I have constantly responded to your posts differently and further elaborated on certain things and you have recycled the same quotes:

• Proof?
• No, this is wrong and bad logic (refuses to properly elaborate why)
• No, you're wrong. With that logic, all high tiers are sub-nuke.

You haven't even come up with a new argument since 2-3 posts ago at this point and you somehow think saying "no I'm right" without explaining why means you are successfully proving anything. And then you say I have to provide the evidence.

I think that's pretty obvious given even mid-tiers can destroy things that a nuke can't.

Doesn't matter, Rhino isn't consistently nuke-level.

Yeah I don't really get that part at all lol. The idea that Spidey can be nuke+ only makes sense if you consider him to be either defined by his better dura feats or his mainline ones. It doesn't have to be either/or in that regard.

Yes, it does... You can't have multiple levels of durability, except for getting knocked out but that's also within a certain range and comics clearly don't care about how getting knocked out repeatedly changes your brain. How would Spider-Man have two different levels of durability? It seems like you're saying "well you don't always have to call Spidey a high tier" but if you don't completely dismiss his feats of tanking high tiers' hits, then you can use them whenever it suits you. A feat either is legitimate and applicable, or it isn't. If it's halfway you can just pick and choose.

You aren't going to try to answer these clear questions? Spidey is lucky against Rhino; he admitted that a few times. The issue is that Rhino is quite strong but also quite stupid, so it isn't difficult to find ways around him. Spidey has a long history of taking on high tiers, so the idea of him not being turned into red mist by Rhino is not somehow a killer argument as I've already stated.

You didn't ask any questions here... Yeah, Spider-Man is lucky against Rhino in the sense that he doesn't get hit a lot by him and gets in the situations necessary to beat him. No amount of luck allows someone to survive a nuke-level punch unless they already could survive very close to that level of a punch. And yeah, Spider-Man has a long history of being inconsistent like any other popular fictional character with thousands of appearances.

It actually does given your original line of reasoning was trying to say that "Your logic is "well Spidey villain = not hanging with high tiers" showing that to be otherwise is disproving your notion.

Remember when I said you didn't change your arguments? Exhibit A. You said that my logic was "Spidey villain = not hanging with high tiers" and I clarified that I meant that Rhino could not hit at nuke-level forces if he failed to kill Peter with said forces. That means that any other villain is not a good comparison unless they also hit Peter, don't kill him, and could have nuke-level hits based on showings against high tiers. That's why Mysterio is irrelevant. I don't understand how this isn't blatantly obvious.

....so he is comparable to Strange then? In what matter?

... Intelligence.

Because you haven't proven anything you are talking about? You continue not to do so. You are basically acting incredulous to the idea of proving your argument by pretending like you haven't actually done so.

Are you purposefully ignoring what I'm saying? I said:

It literally doesn't get worse than:

"Hey I disagree with you, but I could be ignorant about this topic that you keep bringing up, could you provide some evidence for those claims so I can understand better?"

"No, you have to provide the evidence because it's your argument."

And you responded to this with "yeah because you haven't proven anything." I don't understand how someone could argue like this and not be trolling. I'm just genuinely surprised because I never took you for the type, but now I'm having second thoughts. Seriously, someone with your level of knowledge on comics should easily be able to pull up scans of Rhino being a high tier; it would make this conversation much easier and way different. The fact that you aren't doing so just makes me think he doesn't, because why would you be unable to pull up the scans if there were decades of showings?

I already debunked this idea (that Rhino's high-tier showings are "rather old" I.E. your Classic fallacy) etc.

See, the word "etc." only applies if there is more you aren't saying. There isn't. You said that Rhino has recent high-tier showings, I pivoted and said it doesn't matter (because it doesn't) and made a whole new argument that you have failed to properly respond to. Also, you didn't debunk anything. You have said "No, you're wrong, Rhino is a high-tier" and provided zero evidence or rationale.

Scrapping with high-tiers? Plenty. The question is more about the lack of evidence from yourself than me though.

Beginning the trend of saying "I'm right, but you have to provide evidence" without posting scans

Correct: the rational response would have been "sure, here's my evidence" nothing has been shown, clearly you don't have any now that we've actually seen a attempt to prove your point lol.

You know, that would be a rather rational response to my statement:

I mean, how many instances of Rhino being a high-tier are there? I am only aware of a few and they are rather old, which is why I am dismissive of the consistency of these claims. I'm open to being proven wrong, but I haven't seen anything reliably showing that he is a high tier.

Most knowledgeable debaters worth their salt would say. "sure, man, no problem. Here is Rhino fighting Hulk recently, and Juggernaut, and Wendigo. He is a high tier." Or, if for some reason they can't get the scans, they'd say. "well, I can't post the scans right now because of ________, but he fought Juggernaut in this issue and Hulk in this one." I'd even respect "I remember Rhino fighting Juggernaut recently but I forgot the comic and I can't find the issue anywhere online" more than your argument. Instead, you are intentionally antagonizing me after I admitted that I wasn't sure and asked to be proven wrong and unintentionally making yourself look foolish by insisting that I provide the evidence; yeah your evidence is totally real and abundant but I have to do the evidence-providing here, not you!

Correct, you have to prove your own argument.

Because you have none.

This is truly hopeless if you can't understand what is wrong with repeating this over and over.

Your "evidence" is a bunch of low-quality scans with no citations, no context, nothing. That's not evidence, that's just random shit you probably got off random sources.

Ah, how convenient. My evidence just sucks, I guess, so you aren't going to provide your totally real evidence because I need to come up with good evidence that you like before you do so. In the mean time, you'll keep saying "no, wrong" and "proof?" over and over and act like your argument is somehow better despite having less reasoning and evidence than mine.

Your "evidence" is a bunch of low-quality scans

And they are low-quality in what way? The art? The quality of the photo itself? Or the fact that they make you look foolish because I finally provided evidence and you refused a fourth time to provide your own after I did.

with no citations, no context, nothing.

Oh, I'm sorry, would you like a dissertation on each and every panel? That takes too long, I already told you I plan on dropping a bunch of Rhino anti-feats because I'm saying they far outnumber his high-ends. If I am going to drop 10 scans a post I can't afford to provide a synopsis for the comic it is from and a works cited page at the end. Really, all that matters is that Rhino wasn't nerfed in any of those instances and that the instances were from a canon 616 Rhino.

That's not evidence, that's just random shit you probably got off random sources.

Proof?

Proving consistency isn't "well let's sit around and quote high/low-ends all day" because there's nothing reasonable in that.

Unfortunately, the chance for a reasonable discussion disappeared when you parroted the same 3 NPC lines over and over without providing reasoning or evidence for anything. I have already explained why Rhino isn't consistently a high tier, you refuted that with "you're wrong, proof?" so now the only reasonable way to proceed is to see whether there are more showings of him being high-tier or sub-nuke.

I could legit just go to Rhino's first issue with the Hulk and find 6+ showings to the latter lol.

LMAO, so you're going to use one issue of Rhino fighting Hulk as 6 showings of him being a high tier? Do I get to count every time that Misty Knight staggered Rhino as a separate occasion of her being a high tier too enough though it's all from the same few pages in one comic? This is self-explanatory, but so are a lot of my other arguments that you fail to respond properly to, so I'll say it anyway. Multiple showings from a singular comic count as one showing. It's the same writer and artist and only needed to be approved for publishing once. Multiple showings from a singular run or writer count as multiple because it's across multiple comics and so each comic has to be approved separately, but it still is more dubious because it is likely that the specific writers involved just have different understandings of the character than other writers. What would really prove consistency would be multiple different writers in different runs having the same types of showings for the same character, which I provided in my "low-quality feats" section. Notice how I explained why posting 6 showings from the same comic would be "low-quality" and wouldn't work? That's how you should have been arguing instead of saying "this means nothing, it's wrong" and moving on.

None of these are cited (thereby not quantifiable) nor is 6 (6 feats?) going to be enough to disqualify all of his high-tier showings, just like how 6 Spidey anti-feats are going to disqualify all of his in the same breat

Well, 6 is greater than 0, but I understand how you might not get that considering you couldn't count the 10 scans I sent properly. This proves my previous point; you're dismissing them without even looking at them at all because you can't afford to engage with them; that would mean providing evidence of your own. If you even took 15 seconds to count how many scans there were you would have gotten the right number, but you didn't.

None of these are cited (thereby not quantifiable) nor is 6 (6 feats?) going to be enough to disqualify all of his high-tier showings

If you think uncited scans are unquantifiable, then you surely agree that a statement like:

nor is 6 (6 feats?) going to be enough to disqualify all of his high-tier showings

Is utterly baseless and meaningless. What high-tier showings? You've provided none. You say "all of" like there are dozens, hundreds, and yet refuse to prove that there are more high-tier showings than sub-nuke ones. Moreover, this is another indicator of your poor reading comprehension, because I clearly said:

Here's a small sample to start off with. 9 or 10 showings of Rhino being a high-tier shouldn't be too hard to find, considering the apparent decades of that being a consistent thing. I'll be ready with more once you find an equal amount of high-tier showings for Rhino.

So obviously there are more than "6" feats available. But, either way, I'm done discussing this. I've already proved to anyone reading at length that I'm correct and there is no point in discussing it with you further because you don't even adjust your NPC lines for new information, let alone provide a slither of evidence for your claims. I might respond to a thing or two you say in the future if it is especially ridiculous, but I'm not debating this with you anymore, whether you post high-tier showings or not. That's just too little, too late at this point and it wouldn't get rid of the fact that I would still be arguing with repetitive AI-generated responses.

@spideraty15 said:

Rhino is as strong as the thing he beats this dceu doomsday

@professorrespect here are some of rhino feats you can use for your argumenu I got more but here ya doomsday aint doing anything to him