616 Daredevil & Winter Soldier Vs Albert Wesker

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jashro44

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@jashro44: no, i posted it to showcase as an example for the high "precision" skill

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brucerogers

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#54  Edited By brucerogers

@jashro44: What the narration states is he is tracking the bullets by sensing the air pushed in front of them.

Possibly. Either that or he is locating the bullets themselves with his radar. Either way, he still needs the raw speed to move out of the way if he is dodging them after they leave the gun. I am talking about the first scan at least.

The way a gun works is the gun powder gets ignited which creates an explosion. What I believe Matt is doing in that scan is he is sensing the change in air pressure created from the this chemical reaction, not the bullet itself.

You lost me there. At no point in any of the scans I posted do they mention anything about the gunpowder explosion or chemical reaction. They very clearly mention how he is tracking the bullets themselves.....

Given that, do you honestly believe he would be able to dodge them if he wasn't fast enough to physically move himself?. I am speaking strictly under the conditions he was in from the scans I posted. Given how fast bullets are, he would sense them and still get hit by them all the same if he cannot move himself to dodge or deflect them in time.

Again, I am not talking about the times he has aim dodged. I am referring to my scans strictly.

We see this throughout Marv Wolfmans, Jim Shooter, and Frank Millars run:

In the above scans Matt talks about how his radar sense allows him to detect when bullseye is going to bull the trigger and how he uses his radar sense to calculate the trajectory. Matt knows where Bullseye is aiming before he does and with his uncanny skill and timing he can counter. He's able to do this because as you know his radar sense makes it that when he walks into a room it feels like he is touching everything at once:

Yes, these are textbook examples of aim dodging. Clearly different from the examples I posted since he is making his move before the bullets are fired. Though in Shooter's example, you also have him mention how handy his speed is in order to physically evade.

And him aim dodging does not invalidate his other feats of bullet timing.

So Matt is tracking the bullet but he isn't actually sensing the bullets themselves. That wouldn't be possible since bullets are faster than sound.

Matt's radar sense isn't operated on echolocation alone. It involves electromagnetic waves which function as a second sight and thus its not all that different from 'seeing' the bullets and then dodging them. Like how Cassandra Cain, Captain America, Spider-man etc have done. Or alternatively, he can still hear the friction created from the bullets hurting through the air or the changes in air pressure they make and react accordingly.

Plus, not all bullets are faster than sound. Some are decidedly subsonic.

I think he is avoiding due to the precision of his movements. As I said above he is tracking the bullet a certain way. For example you posted scans from daredevil 336 but this is from the same issue:

Matt is tracking the bullets through the air, but he isn't doing that by sensing the actual bullets. He is doing that by detecting and feeling the changes in air pressure. The chemical reaction created with gun powder. He can feel the shooter pulling the trigger and he can literally feel where they are aiming. That is why Matt has such insane precision. Because he can literally feel the path the bullet is going to take while it leaves the gun, and he can also feel when the shooter is going to pull the trigger.

And again, I am not denying that his senses do play a part in all of this. But all the examples you have listed feature him aim dodging thanks to his senses and precision. None of the mention him reacting to them after they are fired.

As for my examples, I am still scratching my head on your 'chemical reaction' reasoning. It's honestly veering on headcanon territory at this point. You have the narrations very clearly state how he is reacting to the bullets and the bullets only, so I am not sure why you are contesting that so much. Now granted, the first scan from 336 does make note of his senses rather than his speed, but that is only because they are imperative for intercepting the bullets in the first place and thus equally important as speed. If not moreso. You can't honestly attribute the feat to senses only just because the author failed to give due credit to the speed.

In any case, the narration trumps them all so...

Well my thing is that I don't believe Matt is reacting to the bullets after they are fired.

Even when the comic blatantly says so?. I mean no offence, but you are making far too many assumptions rather than just accepting what is shown on panel.

If they wanted him to dodge via his senses only, they would not have mentioned how he is sensing the bullets after they leave the gun.

A part of it is Matt reacting to the bullets reaction as the trigger is pulled. The other part is Matt literally feeling when the trigger is pulled. Listen to daredevils explanation during amazing spider-man 287 when he saved spider-man from a sniper bullet. Matt doesn't attribute it to reflexes he attributes it to his enhanced senses.

Yes that is a good aim blocking and movement speed feat.

And this was written by Christopher Priest, who I know doesn't think of daredevil as a bullet timer. The way he portrayed "bullet time" in his deathstroke run, he portrayed it as Slade (with the speed force) and Wally having a whole conversation while time was frozen around them.

Where did he say that he doesn't consider Daredevil to be a bullet timer?. And seeing the world frozen and bullet timing are two very different animals.

You can disagree with Priests interpretation as to what bullet time is however I am simply pointing out there is way more to Matt being able to react to the bullet than just him being a bullet timer.

Yes and I never denied that. He obviously isn't some speedster who can see bullets freeze around him. His senses do play a part. As does his speed and anyone without it would still get hit by them even after sensing them.

Yea I think one of us got confused (probably me) lol. I thought you were talking about this scan:

Anyways Matt can hear bullets whistling through the air and it might not mean that is how he is dodging them. Bullets as I said move faster than sound so he can't rely on hearing to detect a bullet. That just doesn't make sense unless those bullets are moving slower than sound I guess.

Like I stated above, he is merely hearing the friction caused by the bullets as they zip through the air. Or at least that is what the author intended. Regardless of the physics behind it, the author's intentions were clear.

And not all bullets are faster than sound.

Well Mark Waid has written showings where Matt clearly has used his senses to aim dodge. So Matt definitely avoided gunfire under Mark Waid. But he never showed any bullet timing feats.

Correct, he hasn't bullet timer under Waid. That wasn't what I was arguing though.

I was saying that why would he muse about him not being able to dodge bullets when he could have just evaded them by aim dodging and called it a day, no muss no fuss?. It was clear he could not do it because he was carrying and saving someone.

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#55  Edited By jashro44

@brucerogers:

Possibly. Either that or he is locating the bullets themselves with his radar. Either way, he still needs the raw speed to move out of the way if he is dodging them after they leave the gun. I am talking about the first scan at least.

You lost me there. At no point in any of the scans I posted do they mention anything about the gunpowder explosion or chemical reaction. They very clearly mention how he is tracking the bullets themselves.....

Your scan doesn't mention that specifically because its already been established that Matt tracks the mechanics of the gun and how he uses his radar sense to track bullets. This was my explanation how he tracks bullets through the air. He feels the trajectory.

Given that, do you honestly believe he would be able to dodge them if he wasn't fast enough to physically move himself?. I am speaking strictly under the conditions he was in from the scans I posted. Given how fast bullets are, he would sense them and still get hit by them all the same if he cannot move himself to dodge or deflect them in time.

Yes because I don't think he is reacting to them after they are fired. Believe it or not I use to argue Matt was a bullet timer until I had a debate with nickzambuto. He proved me wrong. So believe me I understand I sound crazy when I say this but Matt's ability to deflect bullets is because of the precision of his movements. Not because of speed.

Again, I am not talking about the times he has aim dodged. I am referring to my scans strictly.

Your scans don't have the exposition my scans have but I believe the writers are still keeping this in mind when they are writing the scenes your talking about. They don't need to explain how Matt is tracking bullets every time. They would be cramming panels with unnecessary dialogue if they did.

Yes, these are textbook examples of aim dodging. Clearly different from the examples I posted since he is making his move before the bullets are fired. Though in Shooter's example, you also have him mention how handy his speed is in order to physically evade.

And him aim dodging does not invalidate his other feats of bullet timing.

My point is to explain how his radar sense works. The air that is ahead of the bullet works as a sensory warning for the bullet, it is not the actual bullets. I'll explain in more detail below.

Matt's radar sense isn't operated on echolocation alone. It involves electromagnetic waves which function as a second sight and thus its not all that different from 'seeing' the bullets and then dodging them. Like how Cassandra Cain, Captain America, Spider-man etc have done. Or alternatively, he can still hear the friction created from the bullets hurting through the air or the changes in air pressure they make and react accordingly.

Plus, not all bullets are faster than sound. Some are decidedly subsonic.

It seems to work as a combination of the two.

And again, I am not denying that his senses do play a part in all of this. But all the examples you have listed feature him aim dodging thanks to his senses and precision. None of the mention him reacting to them after they are fired.

As for my examples, I am still scratching my head on your 'chemical reaction' reasoning. It's honestly veering on headcanon territory at this point. You have the narrations very clearly state how he is reacting to the bullets and the bullets only, so I am not sure why you are contesting that so much.

The point of the air of waves pushing ahead if that Matt feels them. What I am saying is we know for a fact that guns exert pressure when the trigger is pulled. That is what Matt is feeling and how he senses the trajectory. That is how I interpret the scan. This is a good scan from Joe Kelly's run which I think explains (I know Matt was only shot because he was in shock). My intention is not to show Matt couldn't have dodged black widow but the mechanics of his radar sense. For the record I think if Matt weren't in shock he would have been fine here.

"a kick of sulfer as the cartridge ejected". That is Matt sensing the air pressure released from the gun as the bullet is fired. I think that is how Matt is sensing the bullets in daredevil 292. The scan from issue 368 uses the same narration as the one from 292 but we see in the scan from 369 there is a lot more going on than Matt sensing the air currents.

Both scans seem to indicate the air maps out the path of the bullet but Joe Kelly seems to provide more details. Sulfer creates air pressure when it is ignited. And this is how I believe Matt uses the air pressure to feel the trajectory of the bullet. I know these are two different writers but I think its fair to assume they are on the same page.

Now granted, the first scan from 336 does make note of his senses rather than his speed, but that is only because they are imperative for intercepting the bullets in the first place and thus equally important as speed. If not moreso. You can't honestly attribute the feat to senses only just because the author failed to give due credit to the speed.

In any case, the narration trumps them all so...

That seems to be how his powers work most of the time. Regardless I am not attributing it to just senses but also Daredevils skill.

Where did he say that he doesn't consider Daredevil to be a bullet timer?. And seeing the world frozen and bullet timing are two very different animals.

He never said daredevil wasn't a bullet timer. My point is based on how he portrayed bullet time in deathstroke he clearly thinks its beyond street level. Regardless this is moot since you acknowledged above that the feat from amazing spider-man 287 is aim blocking. I was just using that example to show Matt's ability to block bullets isn't the result of speed.

But I guess the one scan that is in debate at this point is the 292 one right?

Like I stated above, he is merely hearing the friction caused by the bullets as they zip through the air. Or at least that is what the author intended. Regardless of the physics behind it, the author's intentions were clear.

And not all bullets are faster than sound.

Well as I said I think there is a bit more going on. But I think Joe Kelly explains what I am trying to say.

Correct, he hasn't bullet timer under Waid. That wasn't what I was arguing though.

I was saying that why would he muse about him not being able to dodge bullets when he could have just evaded them by aim dodging and called it a day, no muss no fuss?. It was clear he could not do it because he was carrying and saving someone.

Or it could be that Matt uses his senses to avoid gun fire and he can't dodge the bullet after it is fired. We'd have to ask Mark Waid about that scan.

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brucerogers

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@jashro44: Your scan doesn't mention that specifically because its already been established that Matt tracks the mechanics of the gun and how he uses his radar sense to track bullets. This was my explanation how he tracks bullets through the air. He feels the trajectory.

You are essentially claiming that I am arguing something based on shaky evidence and assumptions, but aren't you pretty much doing the same thing here?. The difference being, I have on panel evidence to back me up. I would not have even considered posting these scans as bullet timing evidence if they hadn't mentioned it as such.

If the panels wanted him to aim dodge or block, they would have mentioned it at such or not said anything at all.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you are putting far too much stock on what other writers have to say instead of focusing what is shown on the scans at hand.

Yes because I don't think he is reacting to them after they are fired. Believe it or not I use to argue Matt was a bullet timer until I had a debate with nickzambuto. He proved me wrong. So believe me I understand I sound crazy when I say this but Matt's ability to deflect bullets is because of the precision of his movements. Not because of speed.

With all due respect to Nick, his opinions are all over the place. I mean, when I showed him these scans some months ago, he conceded that he is a bullet timer, or at least under the writers of said scans. I dunno why he changed his mind, assuming you spoke to him recently.

So I am not sure what he told you to change your mind likewise but you are essentially arguing against on panel evidence. They are all but claiming he is reacting to the bullets, either via sound, radar etc, after they are flying through the air. You cannot get clearer than that.

Not that the notion is exactly wrong. Daredevil does react to projectiles due to his senses and precise movements or at least in the scans you have shown. But does that mean he he doesn't have feats of bullet timing.

Once again, his senses do not give him the ability to physically evade or parry bullets. He has his speed to thank for that. And precise calculated movements mean nada when you are too slow to actually execute them successfully. Case in point: Mr X vs Quicksilver.

Matt reacting to bullets via sensing and anticipating them beforehand is nice, but if it weren't for his speed, he would be hit long before he even though about doing anything, as far as the context of my scans go. Which means, he is fast enough to react to bullets after they are fired.

Your scans don't have the exposition my scans have but I believe the writers are still keeping this in mind when they are writing the scenes your talking about. They don't need to explain how Matt is tracking bullets every time. They would be cramming panels with unnecessary dialogue if they did.

Why do we need an exposition when the scans are very clear about what's happening?. I mean, it's not they have said nothing and I am just assuming things out of thing air. That's why I was on the fence about #319 being bullet timing because the narrations fail to mention anything. The others?. Not so much.

You might as well argue that no street leveller in existence is a bullet timer because they have aim dodged before and thus were possibly aim dodging in that particular instance as well. Regardless of what the art and the narrations say.

My point is to explain how his radar sense works. The air that is ahead of the bullet works as a sensory warning for the bullet, it is not the actual bullets. I'll explain in more detail below.

Alright but his radar wasn't the topic of my argument, regardless.

It seems to work as a combination of the two.

That's true, though he uses sound when he cannot work his radar using electromagnetic radiation. It's a secondary thing.

The point of the air of waves pushing ahead if that Matt feels them. What I am saying is we know for a fact that guns exert pressure when the trigger is pulled. That is what Matt is feeling and how he senses the trajectory. That is how I interpret the scan. This is a good scan from Joe Kelly's run which I think explains (I know Matt was only shot because he was in shock). My intention is not to show Matt couldn't have dodged black widow but the mechanics of his radar sense. For the record I think if Matt weren't in shock he would have been fine here.

"a kick of sulfer as the cartridge ejected". That is Matt sensing the air pressure released from the gun as the bullet is fired. I think that is how Matt is sensing the bullets in daredevil 292. The scan from issue 368 uses the same narration as the one from 292 but we see in the scan from 369 there is a lot more going on than Matt sensing the air currents.

Yep and why do you suppose Matt was hit by that even after sensing the bullet come towards him?. Because he could not physically dodge it in time. This can be explained by him being caught off guard due to disbelief but the same thing would have happened if he was too slow. Are you honestly going to suggest speed plays no part at all?

Both scans seem to indicate the air maps out the path of the bullet but Joe Kelly seems to provide more details. Sulfer creates air pressure when it is ignited. And this is how I believe Matt uses the air pressure to feel the trajectory of the bullet. I know these are two different writers but I think its fair to assume they are on the same page.

Assuming they are on the same page, if the writers wanted to include that explanation from Kelly about his bullet dodging, they would have. They also would not have mentioned how he is reacting just after he senses the flying bullets themselves. I am merely going from what is shown on panel. Nothing more, nothing less.

That seems to be how his powers work most of the time. Regardless I am not attributing it to just senses but also Daredevils skill.

Yes, unless the panel tells us otherwise. And I take it as a combination of senses, skill and speed.

He never said daredevil wasn't a bullet timer. My point is based on how he portrayed bullet time in deathstroke he clearly thinks its beyond street level. Regardless this is moot since you acknowledged above that the feat from amazing spider-man 287 is aim blocking. I was just using that example to show Matt's ability to block bullets isn't the result of speed.

Fair enough.

But I guess the one scan that is in debate at this point is the 292 one right?

Yeah but not just that one.

Well as I said I think there is a bit more going on. But I think Joe Kelly explains what I am trying to say.

Probably. But the problem is, we don't know what the 'bit more' part is. So I am going on what the writers have stated clearly on panel.

Or it could be that Matt uses his senses to avoid gun fire and he can't dodge the bullet after it is fired. We'd have to ask Mark Waid about that scan.

Either way, he could have avoided the bullets all the same. The fact that he made that comment shows that there is more to it. I hope we get an explanation from Waid though, regardless.

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Even if Daredevil cannot solo, I am still not seeing evidence as to how he will beat him, Bucky and Cap so easily. Talk about wank...

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Wesker impales both WS and DD with his fist

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pipxeroth

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I'm sorry, but Daredevil not being a bullet timer is honestly one of the dumbest arguments I've seen on this website.

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No Caption Provided
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@jashro44: If this isn't bullet timing, I don't know what it is










2nd scan ( Bullet already fired and still had the time to detect and dodge)


but what do you expect daredevil a blind man to dodge bullet without rader lol? Do you agree daredevil is a bullet timer even with rader sense helping him for precision/accuracy. He's moved, reacted at bullets after they've being fired multiple times even though sometimes it looks like aim dodging according to narration but sometimes it's narrated as true bullet timing

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@jashro44: He says that he is able to anticipate the bullets trajectory accurately, and he then intercepts it using his speed.

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I've cut out everything that isn't relevant. In the top scan we see a muzzle flash which indicates the gun has fired, and in that same panel Matt's arm is behind him. In the next he's deflected the shot. You can argue that it's inconsistent, (I would,) but this specific feat is genuine bullet timing. What he meant was that his Radar Sense helped him predict the bullet, and without it he wouldn't have been able to deflect it because even though his speed wasn't good enough, his coordination wouldn't be.

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jashro44

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@brucerogers:

You are essentially claiming that I am arguing something based on shaky evidence and assumptions, but aren't you pretty much doing the same thing here?. The difference being, I have on panel evidence to back me up. I would not have even considered posting these scans as bullet timing evidence if they hadn't mentioned it as such.

If the panels wanted him to aim dodge or block, they would have mentioned it at such or not said anything at all.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you are putting far too much stock on what other writers have to say instead of focusing what is shown on the scans at hand.

No...I think your misinterpreting the scan. Where we disagree is what is meant by "My hyper senses track the bullet, the waves of air they push ahead". That is why I was talking about the chemical reaction that a gun creates when a bullet is fired. You said I was arguing head canon (understandably) but now I am using the scans from Joe Kelly's run to explain where I am getting that argument from. Joe Kelly uses the exact same wording. Now your interpretation is that this would mean Matt is reacting to the bullet after it is fired, but my interpretation is that Matt hearing/feeling the air the bullet pushes ahead is about the chemical reaction the gun creates when the bullet is fired and the pressure created from that.

Well that is why I posted this scan because Daredevil says "kick of sulfer as the cartridge is ejected"

No Caption Provided

This is exactly what I've been saying Matt does and what I think Chichester is trying to say. He just didn't go into as much detail as Joe Kelly went into.

Yep and why do you suppose Matt was hit by that even after sensing the bullet come towards him?. Because he could not physically dodge it in time. This can be explained by him being caught off guard due to disbelief but the same thing would have happened if he was too slow. Are you honestly going to suggest speed plays no part at all?

I want to address this part of what you said before I respond to the rest of your post. But Matt being tagged isn't why I uploaded the scan. Matt was able to track the bullet like he did under Chichester, the difference is Matt was in shock under Joe Kelly which is why he got shot. I wasn't trying to make a point based on Matt getting shot. I can't stress that enough.

With all due respect to Nick, his opinions are all over the place. I mean, when I showed him these scans some months ago, he conceded that he is a bullet timer, or at least under the writers of said scans. I dunno why he changed his mind, assuming you spoke to him recently.

So I am not sure what he told you to change your mind likewise but you are essentially arguing against on panel evidence. They are all but claiming he is reacting to the bullets, either via sound, radar etc, after they are flying through the air. You cannot get clearer than that.

No this discussion was a while ago in a PM. Nick is entitled to his opinion (if he thinks these scans are bullet timing than fine). I was just explaining that I know how crazy I sound.

Not that the notion is exactly wrong. Daredevil does react to projectiles due to his senses and precise movements or at least in the scans you have shown. But does that mean he he doesn't have feats of bullet timing.

Once again, his senses do not give him the ability to physically evade or parry bullets. He has his speed to thank for that. And precise calculated movements mean nada when you are too slow to actually execute them successfully. Case in point: Mr X vs Quicksilver.

As I said with the quicksilver and Mister X example, quicksilver can change his trajectory unlike a bullet in mid flight.

Matt reacting to bullets via sensing and anticipating them beforehand is nice, but if it weren't for his speed, he would be hit long before he even though about doing anything, as far as the context of my scans go. Which means, he is fast enough to react to bullets after they are fired.

Well do we agree on the interpretation regarding the scan I posted from amazing spider-man 287? Because the point I uploaded that scan was to show that Matt doesn't need the speed to react to a bullet after it is fired to deflect bullets. Now I know you said as far as the context of your scans go, but that just brings us back to the Joe Kelly scans.

Why do we need an exposition when the scans are very clear about what's happening?. I mean, it's not they have said nothing and I am just assuming things out of thing air. That's why I was on the fence about #319 being bullet timing because the narrations fail to mention anything. The others?. Not so much.

I think the disconnect is we don't agree with what the narrator is saying.

You might as well argue that no street leveller in existence is a bullet timer because they have aim dodged before and thus were possibly aim dodging in that particular instance as well. Regardless of what the art and the narrations say.

No. I think captain america aim dodges however his showing with Bucky is clearly bullet timing, and brubaker even has cap explain he can "see faster". I would say Shang-chi's bullet timing feat is legit as is spdier-man's. Deadpool has a few unquestionable feats. What makes me doubt daredevil is a bullet timer is due to how his powers have been explained to work.

Assuming they are on the same page, if the writers wanted to include that explanation from Kelly about his bullet dodging, they would have. They also would not have mentioned how he is reacting just after he senses the flying bullets themselves. I am merely going from what is shown on panel. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well I think Chichester did explain it the same way Kelly did, he just didn't bother to go into detail because his primary focus is to write a good story, not explain how Matt's power set works in detail.

Yes, unless the panel tells us otherwise. And I take it as a combination of senses, skill and speed.

I guess we can say speed plays apart but its hard to quantify exactly how fast Matt is moving since his skill and senses play such a huge roll. I mean he aim blocked against a sniper bullet....Under a writer who views bullet time as being able to perceive the world the way speedsters do.

Probably. But the problem is, we don't know what the 'bit more' part is. So I am going on what the writers have stated clearly on panel.

Well that is why I uploaded the scan form daredevil 369. Because I think it explains what that "bit more" is.

Either way, he could have avoided the bullets all the same. The fact that he made that comment shows that there is more to it. I hope we get an explanation from Waid though, regardless.

I guess I could try tweeting at Waid....

@jashro44: If this isn't bullet timing, I don't know what it is

2nd scan ( Bullet already fired and still had the time to detect and dodge)

but what do you expect daredevil a blind man to dodge bullet without rader lol? Do you agree daredevil is a bullet timer even with rader sense helping him for precision/accuracy. He's moved, reacted at bullets after they've being fired multiple times even though sometimes it looks like aim dodging according to narration but sometimes it's narrated as true bullet timing

I think these scans comes back what I said to brucerogers. Here is the main part that I need people to understand about those scans:

No...I think your misinterpreting the scan. Where we disagree is what is meant by "My hyper senses track the bullet, the waves of air they push ahead". That is why I was talking about the chemical reaction that a gun creates when a bullet is fired. You said I was arguing head canon (understandably) but now I am using the scans from Joe Kelly's run to explain where I am getting that argument from. Joe Kelly uses the exact same wording. Now your interpretation is that this would mean Matt is reacting to the bullet after it is fired, but my interpretation is that Matt hearing/feeling the air the bullet pushes ahead is about the chemical reaction the gun creates when the bullet is fired and the pressure created from that.

Well that is why I posted this scan because Daredevil says "kick of sulfer as the cartridge is ejected"

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This is exactly what I've been saying Matt does and what I think Chichester is trying to say. He just didn't go into as much detail as Joe Kelly went into.

If you guys don't agree with me that is fine. We can agree to disagree as long as you understand what I am saying I don't care.

@lubub55 said:

@jashro44: He says that he is able to anticipate the bullets trajectory accurately, and he then intercepts it using his speed.

With all due respect this isn't any different from the scan from daredevil 336. This is what the scan says and the relevant part of it:

No Caption Provided

This is what daredevil does in every example of him deflecting bullets.

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@jashro44: I don't think that dialogue contradicts it being bullet timing. All it says is that he can predict the path of the bullet, which I'm not denying. I'm saying that in the scans I posted he was able to deflect the shot after it was fired (which the art makes clear) because his Radar Sense gave him the coordination he needed. He never says in it he was moving before the shot was fired, he said he could predict the path of the shot which he then used in combination with his speed to deflect the bullet.

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@lubub55 said:

@jashro44: I don't think that dialogue contradicts it being bullet timing. All it says is that he can predict the path of the bullet, which I'm not denying. I'm saying that in the scans I posted he was able to deflect the shot after it was fired (which the art makes clear) because his Radar Sense gave him the coordination he needed. He never says in it he was moving before the shot was fired, he said he could predict the path of the shot which he then used in combination with his speed to deflect the bullet.

No that is daredevil on the back swing as the bullet is fired.

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@jashro44:

No Caption Provided

What do you mean? Here we can see through the onomatopoeia and visible muzzle flash that the gun has gone off and the bullet has left the barrel, and Daredevil has his arm behind him which clearly means he waited until the shot was fired before deflecting it. If Daredevil was frozen where he was as the gun fired, he would have been shot because the deflection only happened because of his movement afterwards. In fact that's the last scan of the page which isn't accidental; the author clearly wanted people to see that and be surprised at Matt's speed when they read the next page. He had his arm back to bat the bullet away ready, but his baton wasn't in position to deflect.

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@lubub55: Its literally no different from his recent showing with bullseye.

In the above scans it doesn't look like daredevil is moving while the bullet is flying through the air but Matt than says he was moving before the bullet was fired. The scan you posted says he moves instinctively while anticipating the trajectory. Its saying that Matt moves while anticipating.

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@jashro44 said:

@lubub55: Its literally no different from his recent showing with bullseye.

In the above scans it doesn't look like daredevil is moving while the bullet is flying through the air but Matt than says he was moving before the bullet was fired. The scan you posted says he moves instinctively while anticipating the trajectory. Its saying that Matt moves while anticipating.


what are those scans supposed to show? from what it looks, it's matt moving dodging the bullet

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#69  Edited By EjorpSnruteR

@pastepotpete1 said:

comic version of wesker

video game

movie version

the movie version gets stomped he got pwned by a elevator in the last one

Haven't seen that crap of a movie, but that sounds like an extreme low-end that goes against what we consistently see him survive.

In Afterlife, he survives two massive explosions (one he walks from not even seconds later) and a head-on collision into a mountain.

Edit: Okay, I read that the T-Virus was causing cellular instability in Wesker during The Final Chapter. So that makes sense why he wasn't able to survive/regen from that elevator you mentioned when he already showed that he should be able to.

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@jashro44: those scans with bullseye you just posted shows matt bullet timing i.e deflecting the bullet with his baton, not sure where'd you get aim dodging from that

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#71  Edited By jashro44

@boogie123: Yes that is what it looks like but the narration states this:

No Caption Provided

What I am saying is those set of scans aren't different from the scan lububb posted.

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In my opinion Matt is a bullet timer.

However, Wesker still wins. Wesker is effortlessly FTE, I've never seen Daredevil do that.

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@jashro44: so those scans shows he's not a casual bullet timer like Elektra?

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@jashro44: so those scans shows he's not a casual bullet timer like Elektra?

They don't in themselves prove Matt isn't a bullet timer. The reason I uploaded them was because Lububb claimed the scan he posted was bullet timing and my argument was the narration confirms Matt anticipated the trajectory of the bullet. Lububb was saying the art work shows it was raw speed but I uploaded the bullseye scans because the way the art is drawn it looks like Matt deflected the bullet after it was fired but Matt himself says his arm was moving before bullseye pulled the trigger.

What I was trying to say is just because something may look one way with the art work doesn't mean it is that way when the narration contradicts.

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@jashro44:No...I think your misinterpreting the scan. Where we disagree is what is meant by "My hyper senses track the bullet, the waves of air they push ahead". That is why I was talking about the chemical reaction that a gun creates when a bullet is fired. You said I was arguing head canon (understandably) but now I am using the scans from Joe Kelly's run to explain where I am getting that argument from. Joe Kelly uses the exact same wording. Now your interpretation is that this would mean Matt is reacting to the bullet after it is fired, but my interpretation is that Matt hearing/feeling the air the bullet pushes ahead is about the chemical reaction the gun creates when the bullet is fired and the pressure created from that.

Okay let me ask you this: You don't think that 'the waves of air they push ahead' could be referring to the ones made by the bullet itself as it is travelling and thus pushing the air ahead, rather than the explosion from the chemical reaction?. I am talking about scan from issue no 262 by Defalco. Even in Kelly's story, he seems to be referring to the air waves made by the bullet itself after it leaves the gun. The whole Sulfur cartridge thing is just his way of explaining Matt's senses.

Just clarifying again.

This is exactly what I've been saying Matt does and what I think Chichester is trying to say. He just didn't go into as much detail as Joe Kelly went into.

I disagree. If Chichester wanted to elaborate on it, he would have. If he didn't intend it to be bullet timing, there are 10 different ways he could have worded that in a way that does not imply bullet timig. Or not said anything at all.

Plus writers don't even seem to agree on the exact nature of his radar sense. Or even his exact origin story for that matter. So I don't expect them to unanimously agree on such a minute detail. Unless it's explicitly mentioned, of course.

I want to address this part of what you said before I respond to the rest of your post. But Matt being tagged isn't why I uploaded the scan. Matt was able to track the bullet like he did under Chichester, the difference is Matt was in shock under Joe Kelly which is why he got shot. I wasn't trying to make a point based on Matt getting shot. I can't stress that enough.

No no don't get me wrong, I wasn't suggesting that you are using that feat to lowball him or anything. I understand why you used it and I think you did a good thing by using it to be honest. Since it solidifies my point that just sensing the bullet isn't enough when you are too slow to dodge it. Only the slow part in this case was thanks him him hesitating at the wrong moment due to shock and not due to he lack of speed.

No this discussion was a while ago in a PM. Nick is entitled to his opinion (if he thinks these scans are bullet timing than fine).

Yeah of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I was just wondering what made him change his mind, is all.

I was just explaining that I know how crazy I sound.

I admit that I am a bit surprised since I always though you were in the Daredevil-being-a-bullet-timer camp, but I don't think you sound crazy lol. We are just debating on the interpretation of certain feats. That's all.

As I said with the quicksilver and Mister X example, quicksilver can change his trajectory unlike a bullet in mid flight.

Yeah but notice how Quicksilver was able to hit him first before he could react in time. Compare that hit to a bullet and you will get the idea.

Well do we agree on the interpretation regarding the scan I posted from amazing spider-man 287? Because the point I uploaded that scan was to show that Matt doesn't need the speed to react to a bullet after it is fired to deflect bullets. Now I know you said as far as the context of your scans go, but that just brings us back to the Joe Kelly scans.

Yeah we are in agreement there. There was a time when I used to regard that as bullet timing but after giving it some thought, I came to realise that it is just a very advanced form of aim blocking. I only consider something as bullet timing when there is solid evidence to support it.

I think the disconnect is we don't agree with what the narrator is saying.

That seems to be the primary point of contention, yeah.

No. I think captain america aim dodges however his showing with Bucky is clearly bullet timing, and brubaker even has cap explain he can "see faster". I would say Shang-chi's bullet timing feat is legit as is spdier-man's. Deadpool has a few unquestionable feats. What makes me doubt daredevil is a bullet timer is due to how his powers have been explained to work.

Yeah but since we know that all of these three have also aim reacted thanks to an enhanced mind, skill etc, we might as well call all their bullet timing feats aim dodging/blocking based on that, without giving credit to speed. Cap's enhanced perception allows him to 'see faster' and that is functionally no different than Matt's radar sense.

Regardless of what the art or narration have said.

Or we can agree that anyone that specifically reacts to bullets is a bullet timer. Speed being the main factor in question. Or at least one of the main.

Well I think Chichester did explain it the same way Kelly did, he just didn't bother to go into detail because his primary focus is to write a good story, not explain how Matt's power set works in detail.

I disagree. I have mentioned above why.

I guess we can say speed plays apart but its hard to quantify exactly how fast Matt is moving since his skill and senses play such a huge roll. I mean he aim blocked against a sniper bullet....Under a writer who views bullet time as being able to perceive the world the way speedsters do.

If you are talking about the sniper feat, then yeah I agree wholeheartedly. But as for the other ones, we do know that speed was as important a factor as his senses.

Well that is why I uploaded the scan form daredevil 369. Because I think it explains what that "bit more" is.

I know, but the authors from the scans I posted haven't explicitly said anything about that either way.

I guess I could try tweeting at Waid....

That'd be great, thanks. At least that way we will know what Waid's intentions were.

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#76  Edited By a_marques

@brucerogers

Even if Daredevil cannot solo, I am still not seeing evidence as to how he will beat him, Bucky and Cap so easily. Talk about wank...

Honestly, I think he's just way too fast.

No one here is any faster than RE peak humans who can easily move at FTE speeds or keep up with beings who move FTE.

Several instances of RE peak human characters moving FTE or keeping up with FTE beings.

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

Yet, Wesker is shown to be FAR too fast for RE peak humans, overwhelming Chris and Jill (or Chris and Sheva) at the same time.

Wesker is fast enough to run from one side of a room, grab a little girl who was standing at the other side right next to Chris and Jill, then drag her all the way back to where he was standing, all not only faster than they could react, but before they even realized what happened until it was too late.

Just a few pages earlier, Chris was easily reacting to Hunters who were moving fast enough to appear as an abstract blur (sixth set o scans right above).

Then in the Code Veronica comic books, Wesker was easily blitzing Chris, covering the distance to him, then throwing several punches faster than he could react.

In that same comic, Chris was keeping up with two Hunters at the same time who were once again moving as abstract blurs and reacting to point-blank shotgun fire (7th set of scans above).

In RE5 he blitzes Chris and Jill while toying around with them.

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Even after being injected with the PG-67/AW serum, which greatly weakened his abilities, he was still effortlessly doing flash steps while sidestepping Chris' bullets. The serum made him weaker immediately after injection to the point he was having trouble standing up prior the bomber jet fight, and it was still weakening him even further with each passing moment with his movements growing sloppy.

No Caption Provided
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Also, a bloodlusted Wesker should be able to punch through everyone here like he can do to Chris.

Loading Video...

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@jashro44: Dd to me is a bullet dodger , but this doesnt mean he doesn't try to avoid the bullets before their fired either

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@a_marques: Going with Wesker. Stats and healing are too much.

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#81  Edited By jashro44

@brucerogers:

Okay let me ask you this: You don't think that 'the waves of air they push ahead' could be referring to the ones made by the bullet itself as it is travelling and thus pushing the air ahead, rather than the explosion from the chemical reaction?. I am talking about scan from issue no 262 by Defalco. Even in Kelly's story, he seems to be referring to the air waves made by the bullet itself after it leaves the gun. The whole Sulfur cartridge thing is just his way of explaining Matt's senses.

Just clarifying again.

Yes. I think the Kelly scans provide more clarity. The whole point of Matts ability to feel air currents is its suppose to be an early warning sense.

I disagree. If Chichester wanted to elaborate on it, he would have. If he didn't intend it to be bullet timing, there are 10 different ways he could have worded that in a way that does not imply bullet timig. Or not said anything at all.

Plus writers don't even seem to agree on the exact nature of his radar sense. Or even his exact origin story for that matter. So I don't expect them to unanimously agree on such a minute detail. Unless it's explicitly mentioned, of course.

Thing is there is a consistent trend of Matt being able to track the gun closesly which seems to be the usual reason why he can deflect bullets in the manner in which he does.

No no don't get me wrong, I wasn't suggesting that you are using that feat to lowball him or anything. I understand why you used it and I think you did a good thing by using it to be honest. Since it solidifies my point that just sensing the bullet isn't enough when you are too slow to dodge it. Only the slow part in this case was thanks him him hesitating at the wrong moment due to shock and not due to he lack of speed.

Well I think Matt just missed his timing because he was distracted but we digress.

Yeah but notice how Quicksilver was able to hit him first before he could react in time. Compare that hit to a bullet and you will get the idea.

I don't think these are equivalent examples. A bullet is much more predictable than a speedster because it only has one path.

Yeah but since we know that all of these three have also aim reacted thanks to an enhanced mind, skill etc, we might as well call all their bullet timing feats aim dodging/blocking based on that, without giving credit to speed. Cap's enhanced perception allows him to 'see faster' and that is functionally no different than Matt's radar sense.

Regardless of what the art or narration have said.

Or we can agree that anyone that specifically reacts to bullets is a bullet timer. Speed being the main factor in question. Or at least one of the main.

The argument with daredevil is I think its been more established how Matt's radar sense works. For example we know if we talk to Brubaker what his stance is on captain america. You might get a different response from someone like Christopher Priest but that is because he views bullet timing as something street levelers can't do and as a speedster level feat.

Whereas with Defalco I think if we were to talk to him I don't think he would say Peter is faster than sound and he wrote amazing spider-man 438:

No Caption Provided

He had Matt admit he can barely keep track of spider-mans movements and couldn't dodge with all his speed and reflexes despite knowing Peter was going to throw a punch at him. Matt does dodge some hits from Peter later in the fight but that was because Peter's perception of reality was messed up. Matt even admitted if this weren't the case he wouldn't stand a chance against spider-man. I also think if you talk to Brubaker who's written both characters I think he will say similar about daredevil. In his interview where he declares cap as enhanced one of the things he mentions to prove cap is enhanced is his ability to dodge bullets (I'm guessing he is talking about bullet timing). But he makes a distinction between cap and daredevils speed.

I think daredevil makes up for his lack of physicals with captain america through greater skill.

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#82  Edited By brucerogers

@jashro44: Yes. I think the Kelly scans provide more clarity. The whole point of Matts ability to feel air currents is its suppose to be an early warning sense.

I see and this is the part we are not seeing eye to eye on. The air currents made by the bullets do give him a warning, but they mean next to nothing if he isn't fast enough. And I don't think every writer of the aforementioned feats have Joe Kelly's explanation in mind unless they have stated it. Each writer has their own interpretation.

Thing is there is a consistent trend of Matt being able to track the gun closesly which seems to be the usual reason why he can deflect bullets in the manner in which he does.

Sure, at least by default. Not when it's explicitly stated otherwise though.

Well I think Matt just missed his timing because he was distracted but we digress.

Fairs.

I don't think these are equivalent examples. A bullet is much more predictable than a speedster because it only has one path.

I know, which is why I was only bringing up the first punch thrown. Not the rest of the fight.

The argument with daredevil is I think its been more established how Matt's radar sense works. For example we know if we talk to Brubaker what his stance is on captain america. You might get a different response from someone like Christopher Priest but that is because he views bullet timing as something street levelers can't do and as a speedster level feat.

Pretty much, yeah. Since every writer has their own interpretation. But Matt has shown these bullet timing feats under multiple ones.

Whereas with Defalco I think if we were to talk to him I don't think he would say Peter is faster than sound and he wrote amazing spider-man 438:

He had Matt admit he can barely keep track of spider-mans movements and couldn't dodge with all his speed and reflexes despite knowing Peter was going to throw a punch at him. Matt does dodge some hits from Peter later in the fight but that was because Peter's perception of reality was messed up. Matt even admitted if this weren't the case he wouldn't stand a chance against spider-man

Yeah but here is the thing though. Bullet timers failing to react to and thus getting hit people or things far slower than a bullet is fairly ubiquitous in comics. Look at Gorgon for instance. When non jobbing and written at his peak, like under Millar or during Secret Warriors, he was bullet timing like nobody's business. He even reacted and counter blitzed a speedster, while distracted. That still didn't stop Wolverine from landing hits on him. Or Phobos, or Daisy Johnson, or Crusher Creel's son and so on.

Look at Spider-man himself and I am sure you can point out him getting hit many times by things much slower than bullets. So why should Daredevil be any different?. I would just chalk this up as an inconsistency, nothing more.

I also think if you talk to Brubaker who's written both characters I think he will say similar about daredevil. In his interview where he declares cap as enhanced one of the things he mentions to prove cap is enhanced is his ability to dodge bullets (I'm guessing he is talking about bullet timing). But he makes a distinction between cap and daredevils speed.

By speed, he was referring to the Born Again arc where Matt can only see Cap as a blur as he is running. That does not necessarily translate to bullet timing though.

That said, I don't think Matt had any bullet timing feats under Brubaker. At least not clear cut ones.

I think daredevil makes up for his lack of physicals with captain america through greater skill

I feel Matt is also faster, in part due to his radar sense. Just look at their tussle under Waid, where Cap could barely lay a hand on him.

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Wesker stomps in both rounds.

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#84  Edited By jashro44

@brucerogers:

I see and this is the part we are not seeing eye to eye on. The air currents made by the bullets do give him a warning, but they mean next to nothing if he isn't fast enough. And I don't think every writer of the aforementioned feats have Joe Kelly's explanation in mind unless they have stated it. Each writer has their own interpretation.

I guess agree to disagree.

Yeah but here is the thing though. Bullet timers failing to react to and thus getting hit people or things far slower than a bullet is fairly ubiquitous in comics. Look at Gorgon for instance. When non jobbing and written at his peak, like under Millar or during Secret Warriors, he was bullet timing like nobody's business. He even reacted and counter blitzed a speedster, while distracted. That still didn't stop Wolverine from landing hits on him. Or Phobos, or Daisy Johnson, or Crusher Creel's son and so on.

Look at Spider-man himself and I am sure you can point out him getting hit many times by things much slower than bullets. So why should Daredevil be any different?. I would just chalk this up as an inconsistency, nothing more.

Yea but he also said he could barely keep track of him.

No Caption Provided

Its not just that he got tagged.

By speed, he was referring to the Born Again arc where Matt can only see Cap as a blur as he is running. That does not necessarily translate to bullet timing though.

That said, I don't think Matt had any bullet timing feats under Brubaker. At least not clear cut ones.

Does that make sense though? Logically cap should be much easier to track than a bullet because he is also much larger. I get that bullets are more linear projectiles so being a bullet timer doesn't make you untouchable. But if Matt was a bullet timer than how can cap move as a blur to him?

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#85  Edited By brucerogers

@jashro44: I guess agree to disagree.

Sure, no problem.

Yea but he also said he could barely keep track of him. Its not just that he got tagged.

Yeah but people get tagged because they fail to keep track of the punch or projectile. In any case, I would still just chalk this up to an inconsistency. I don't think Matt has ever claimed this during their other fights, like when he fought SpOck for instance.

Does that make sense though? Logically cap should be much easier to track than a bullet because he is also much larger. I get that bullets are more linear projectiles so being a bullet timer doesn't make you untouchable. But if Matt was a bullet timer than how can cap move as a blur to him?

Wait this one is my bad. Matt never outright claims to see Cap as a blur since it's just the artwork that shows him as one. He does muse on about how he is faster though. Here is the scan.

From Daredevil vol 1 #233.

No Caption Provided

As for being faster, I think he is strictly talking about running speed. Remember, Cap was the one who had a hard time tagging him in a fight instead of the other way around.

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@brucerogers:

Yeah but people get tagged because they fail to keep track of the punch or projectile. In any case, I would still just chalk this up to an inconsistency. I don't think Matt has ever claimed this during their other fights, like when he fought SpOck for instance.

Well a lot of daredevil and spider-mans fights do have context (including the one from amazing spider-man 438). Most are either really old (when Peter was less experienced and competent) or Peter isn't in the right state of mind or even a combination of the two. The SpOck fight being maybe the exception but that was SpOck early on so its possible he wasn't experienced. Plus Peter in a weakened state kind of wrecked SpOck during spiderverse. So I think its fair to say Peter is a better fighter than Otto.

Regardless the main reason I brought up amazing spider-man 438 was because it was written by Defalco. And you mentioned one of the scans you were referring to was written by him but not sure if that was a typo? I'm guessing you were talking about daredevil 292?

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#87  Edited By brucerogers

@jashro44: Well a lot of daredevil and spider-mans fights do have context (including the one from amazing spider-man 438). Most are either really old (when Peter was less experienced and competent) or Peter isn't in the right state of mind or even a combination of the two. The SpOck fight being maybe the exception but that was SpOck early on so its possible he wasn't experienced. Plus Peter in a weakened state kind of wrecked SpOck during spiderverse. So I think its fair to say Peter is a better fighter than Otto.

I agree. A non messing around Spidey would beat Daredevil to a pulp. I was merely saying that Matt hasn't had a problem with his speed to the point where he is just a blur. At least when speaking consistently.

Regardless the main reason I brought up amazing spider-man 438 was because it was written by Defalco. And you mentioned one of the scans you were referring to was written by him but not sure if that was a typo? I'm guessing you were talking about daredevil 292?

Yeah that's the one. I still think it's just an inconsistency.