Well I dont think Daredevil has moved that fast. Or at least, its hard to tell from comic art. Though I know you know that he is a bullet timer.
I think Matt's ability to deflect bullets has more to do with precision than speed. Stan Lee established that pretty early on.
The Nameless One fight was back in Daredevil vol 1 #244. I would post the fight and the feat but it would violate the scan rule lol. So look it up if possible.
Pretty impressive.
As for Hyde, he may be a jobber but that is only in terms of skill and speed. His physical durability has been decently consistent.
I don't know about that. Daredevil did beat him down with a mail box. Granted spider-man also threw a van at him.
@jashro44:I don't know man. The one scan that comes to mind where daredevil explicitly deflects a bullet after it was fired was against bushwacker but the narration says Matt felt the bullet before it was fired or something along those lines.
Nah he has a couple of legit bullet timing feats. Enough to call them consistent. I may not have covered all of them, but here you go.
In order:
1) Daredevil vol 1 #336
2) Daredevil vol 1 #292
3) Daredevil annual 8
4) Daredevil annual 10
Make note of the narration.
Here is another possible bullet timing and a definite speed feat from Daredevil vol 1 #219
As for the feat against Bushwacker, he clearly moves to swat the bullet away after it is fired. See the SCAN again for clarification.
And in issue 31 of Mark Waids run Matt said he can't dodge bullets.
Yes, when he was carrying someone. I think it was more about him not being able to dodge bullets while carrying a person, than not being a bullet dodger.
Hyde is a thor villain. I don't think any unenhanced individual should be able to hurt him.
Eh, Hyde's strength does fluctuate a lot based on how enhanced he is at the moment or some such. One moment he will go toe to toe with Thor and in another one, he will be hurt by guys like Spider-man.
@brucerogers: OK:
About the other scan you posted that you said could possibly be bullet timing it could be the same thing I said about point 4 (its also unclear when Matt moved). Regarding the scan from daredevil 31 Matt never said it was because he was carrying someone.
@jashro44:Jash those are almost all bullet timing feats he performed tracking bullets in the air is most certainly a bullet timing feat
The first scan mentions Matts senses. And this is issue after the scan I was talking about.
it specifically stated he moved his body out of the path of the bullets, by any logical reading comprehension one would take this to mean he dodged the bullets
Matt mentions that the muzzle flair blinds the shooter which allows him to make his move. Not sure if the guy panicked and missed because he was blind or if its bullet timing.
tracking bullets in the air would be considered bullet timing
This scan might be legit. All though Matt does mention he calculates the distance again. While he does say he performs these calculations before the bullet is halfway towards him he also mentions his next move is thought out while executing his present one. So this could just be the same as the scan I posted (admittedly the way it is worded it sounds like bullet timing, but I think it could just be poorly worded as well).
so let me get this straight, the bullet is fired,ok, then Matt not only recognizes the bullets are coming to him but makes calculations to avoid the bullets and the bullets aren't even half way to him and thats "might be legit" and your only reasoning behind this is "poor wording?" thats a very obvious bullet timing feat
The second scan could be bullet timing but I'm not sure. We don't see Matt deflecting bullets. Could just be a writer/artist disconnect sort of like what happened with Luther strode and Justin Jordan.
this one is actually maybe not bullet timing, however there are other ways to bullet time without deflecting bullets. after all Spider-Man didnt deflect the Sniper Bullet but we all use that feat as the word of god because theres a statement saying "he dodged it"
Regarding the scan with bushwacker it is how I remember it but the narration says Matt "feels the attack" before it comes. The art shows one thing but the narration seems to imply another.
the issue was Daredevil Volume 1 #219 and no where in the narration does it say he feels the attack before it comes.
About the other scan you posted that you said could possibly be bullet timing it could be the same thing I said about point 4 (its also unclear when Matt moved). Regarding the scan from daredevil 31 Matt never said it was because he was carrying someone.
are you really using a statement when direct feats contradict that matt bullet times quite often? im legitimately asking because statements have been thrown out as proof when direct feats contradict said statements allot lately and im just wondering if i can start calling Odin Omnipotent and using him in battles like the Presence and PR Beyonder. WITB will be quite pleased.
and i know you said it was to disprove Bruce's claim but you posted it as evidence the post before this one
btw heres the 2 bullet timing feats Bruce missed.
Daredevil volume 2 #27
Daredevil Man without fear #5
im not gonna say who wins, but the idea that Daredevil is anything other than a very casual bullet timer is just not supported by feats
Sensing the bullet is one thing. But physically moving his limbs to dodge it after it is fired?. That is the impressive part.
That's the thing. I don't think Matt did that. The narration mention senses instead of reflexes.
It's not mentioned explicitly that the shooter would have missed but regardless, he is clearly tracking and reacting to the bullet after it it is fired. Tracking is fine and dandy and can be attributed to his senses. But reacting?. That takes no small amount of speed.
The argument is that he didn't have to dodge because the shooter is missing his shots. And when he says he is tracking the bullets he clarifies by saying he is tracking the waves of air they push ahead. He can sense changes in the atmosphere with his radar sense and I think that is how daredevil is tracking the bullet.
I mean that is probably what is meant by he feels the attack before its coming in this scan. He even mentions "feeling the space" which probably refers to feeling the change in the atmosphere:
He knows where the bullet is going to be due to changes in air pressure from the gun, and is precise enough to time his swing accordingly. I know it sounds crazy Matt can perform calculations that quickly but that is daredevil. One of the reasons Matt is so insanely skilled is because of his insane levels of precision.
He does outright mention that he calculated the trajectory after the bullets left the gun, but before they got to him. Based on their sound as they whistle through the air. He isn't aim dodging, if that is what you are arguing.
Which is why I acknowledged it could possibly be bullet timing. However we also see that Matt plans out his moves while he is executing his current movements. He could have began the calculation and reaction process before the bullet was fired but didn't start the movement until after the bullets traveled through the air.
I'm just saying it could be that Matt did calculate the trajectory of the bullet similar to the original scan I posted. Based on the way it is worded it would be bullet timing. However based on what Matt says in the next narration box I think the part about Matt calculating while the bullets are halfway there could be misworded.
If you interpret it as bullet timing that is fair. I can't say your wrong. I just want to say I have my doubts.
But feeling the attack and physically reacting to it are two different things. He may have felt it before it hit him. But he clearly moved to smack it away after it left the barrel.
Well my argument is that Matt is so precise with movements that he knows the exact moment he needs to swing his billy club to hit the bullet out of the air. He knows the exact moment he needs to swing his billy club because daredevil is that skilled. He's literally claimed his timing is precise to the microsecond.
The art admittedly does not do it justice but the narration does say he is gliding away from the bullets he hears whistling through the air. He is not reacting to the sound of the gunshot but the bullets themselves.
Where does it say that in your scan? Maybe its because its 2:00 where I am but I don't see any narration stating that...
Yeah but the thing is, Matt has had no trouble dodging bullets. Aim dodging or otherwise. Some in Waid's own book to boot. I guess it was just badly worded.
I don't think Matt has issues avoiding bullets. I mean in the scan posted he isn't getting shot. I think he is talking about dodging the actual bullets and not aim dodging.
@warlockmage Regarding your scans panel transitions don't equate to bullet timing unless we see the characters position after the bullet is fired. I don't consider the cop scans definitive bullet timing. Every character would be considered a bullet timer if that were the case. Daredevils ability to deflect bullets has to do with timing rather than reflexes.
it specifically stated he moved his body out of the path of the bullets, by any logical reading comprehension one would take this to mean he dodged the bullets
I think if it were bullet timing they would have put enthesis on reflexes rather than senses. Again the same writer is the one who wrote "feel the attack before it comes"
tracking bullets in the air would be considered bullet timing
Read my explanation above.
so let me get this straight, the bullet is fired,ok, then Matt not only recognizes the bullets are coming to him but makes calculations to avoid the bullets and the bullets aren't even half way to him and thats "might be legit" and your only reasoning behind this is "poor wording?" thats a very obvious bullet timing feat
Your leaving out the part where Matt stated that he plans his moves while executing his current moves which is how I came to my conclusion Matt calculated the bullet before it was fired and the part about him doing it before there halfway to him is bad wording. I think its possible Matt performed his calculations before that point.
this one is actually maybe not bullet timing, however there are other ways to bullet time without deflecting bullets. after all Spider-Man didnt deflect the Sniper Bullet but we all use that feat as the word of god because theres a statement saying "he dodged it"
I am aware.
the issue was Daredevil Volume 1 #219 and no where in the narration does it say he feels the attack before it comes.
It doesn't have to be because its been established since Stan Lee's run that is how daredevils abilities work. Regardless I don't see why it can't be aim dodging even if it weren't daredevil? The scan isn't clear when Matt actually moved.
are you really using a statement when direct feats contradict that matt bullet times quite often? im legitimately asking because statements have been thrown out as proof when direct feats contradict said statements allot lately and im just wondering if i can start calling Odin Omnipotent and using him in battles like the Presence and PR Beyonder. WITB will be quite pleased.
The statement comes from Matt himself and isn't phrased in a hyperbolic manner like Odin being omnipotent.
im not gonna say who wins, but the idea that Daredevil is anything other than a very casual bullet timer is just not supported by feats
Honestly I don't even think it matters if daredevil is a bullet timer. He cna keep up with them no problem, and he's dealt with the best marksmen in marvel already. So I don't think it matters if its speed or skill.
@jashro44: That's the thing. I don't think Matt did that. The narration mention senses instead of reflexes.
I don't follow. The narration clearly says he is twisting his body rapidly to avoid the impact after he senses the bullets whistling through the air. It doesn't really change what I said.
The argument is that he didn't have to dodge because the shooter is missing his shots. And when he says he is tracking the bullets he clarifies by saying he is tracking the waves of air they push ahead. He can sense changes in the atmosphere with his radar sense and I think that is how daredevil is tracking the bullet.
Well for one, we don't know for sure whether the shooter is missing his shots due to bad aim. And again, you're missing my point. What you are doing is arguing that he can sense bullets due to his radar and other enhanced senses. I never denied that. But he is reacting, as in moving out of the way, after they are already fired. Ergo it's bullet timing.
It doesn't really matter if someone reacts to bullets via sight, sound or radar sense. If they did it after it left the gun, then it's bullet timing either way. Unless explicitly stated or shown otherwise, of course.
I mean that is probably what is meant by he feels the attack before its coming in this scan. He even mentions "feeling the space" which probably refers to feeling the change in the atmosphere:
He knows where the bullet is going to be due to changes in air pressure from the gun, and is precise enough to time his swing accordingly. I know it sounds crazy Matt can perform calculations that quickly but that is daredevil. One of the reasons Matt is so insanely skilled is because of his insane levels of precision.
Yeah but he isn't really anticipating the bullet via aim dodging now, is he?. He is reacting to the change in atmosphere made by the bullets themselves.
Which is why I acknowledged it could possibly be bullet timing. However we also see that Matt plans out his moves while he is executing his current movements. He could have began the calculation and reaction process before the bullet was fired but didn't start the movement until after the bullets traveled through the air.
I'm just saying it could be that Matt did calculate the trajectory of the bullet similar to the original scan I posted. Based on the way it is worded it would be bullet timing. However based on what Matt says in the next narration box I think the part about Matt calculating while the bullets are halfway there could be misworded.
If you interpret it as bullet timing that is fair. I can't say your wrong. I just want to say I have my doubts.
Fair enough. Though yeah, I call it a definite bullet timing feat because-
a) He says: "I hear the bullets moving through the air and calculate their trajectory before they're even halfway to me". Which means he did the calculation after the bullets were fired and en route towards him. Not before.
b) His next move statement just means he is ready for the attacker behind him due to smelling and hearing him as he is kicking the present bad guy. I won't apply it to the bullet example above since that stated something else entirely.
Well my argument is that Matt is so precise with movements that he knows the exact moment he needs to swing his billy club to hit the bullet out of the air. He knows the exact moment he needs to swing his billy club because daredevil is that skilled. He's literally claimed his timing is precise to the microsecond.
You are spot on about his precision. Though the microsecond part is clearly a hyperbole lol. But he bullet timed in a different manner in my examples.
Where does it say that in your scan? Maybe its because its 2:00 where I am but I don't see any narration stating that...
Haha no worries, I circled it out for clarity. Assuming we are talking about the same scan lol.
I don't think Matt has issues avoiding bullets. I mean in the scan posted he isn't getting shot. I think he is talking about dodging the actual bullets and not aim dodging.
Where does it say he is not talking about aim dodging, specifically?. I mean technically speaking, aim dodging and bullet dodging both yield the same results. Which is not getting hit by the bullet.
EDIT- Yeah sure, take your time. Night.
I don't follow. The narration clearly says he is twisting his body rapidly to avoid the impact after he senses the bullets whistling through the air. It doesn't really change what I said.
What the narration states is he is tracking the bullets by sensing the air pushed in front of them. The way a gun works is the gun powder gets ignited which creates an explosion. What I believe Matt is doing in that scan is he is sensing the change in air pressure created from the this chemical reaction, not the bullet itself. We see this throughout Marv Wolfmans, Jim Shooter, and Frank Millars run:
In the above scans Matt talks about how his radar sense allows him to detect when bullseye is going to bull the trigger and how he uses his radar sense to calculate the trajectory. Matt knows where Bullseye is aiming before he does and with his uncanny skill and timing he can counter. He's able to do this because as you know his radar sense makes it that when he walks into a room it feels like he is touching everything at once:
So Matt is tracking the bullet but he isn't actually sensing the bullets themselves. That wouldn't be possible since bullets are faster than sound.
Well for one, we don't know for sure whether the shooter is missing his shots due to bad aim. And again, you're missing my point. What you are doing is arguing that he can sense bullets due to his radar and other enhanced senses. I never denied that. But he is reacting, as in moving out of the way, after they are already fired. Ergo it's bullet timing.
I think he is avoiding due to the precision of his movements. As I said above he is tracking the bullet a certain way. For example you posted scans from daredevil 336 but this is from the same issue:
Matt is tracking the bullets through the air, but he isn't doing that by sensing the actual bullets. He is doing that by detecting and feeling the changes in air pressure. The chemical reaction created with gun powder. He can feel the shooter pulling the trigger and he can literally feel where they are aiming. That is why Matt has such insane precision. Because he can literally feel the path the bullet is going to take while it leaves the gun, and he can also feel when the shooter is going to pull the trigger.
It doesn't really matter if someone reacts to bullets via sight, sound or radar sense. If they did it after it left the gun, then it's bullet timing either way. Unless explicitly stated or shown otherwise, of course.
Well my thing is that I don't believe Matt is reacting to the bullets after they are fired.
Yeah but he isn't really anticipating the bullet via aim dodging now, is he?. He is reacting to the change in atmosphere made by the bullets themselves.
A part of it is Matt reacting to the bullets reaction as the trigger is pulled. The other part is Matt literally feeling when the trigger is pulled. Listen to daredevils explanation during amazing spider-man 287 when he saved spider-man from a sniper bullet. Matt doesn't attribute it to reflexes he attributes it to his enhanced senses.
And this was written by Christopher Priest, who I know doesn't think of daredevil as a bullet timer. The way he portrayed "bullet time" in his deathstroke run, he portrayed it as Slade (with the speed force) and Wally having a whole conversation while time was frozen around them.
You can disagree with Priests interpretation as to what bullet time is however I am simply pointing out there is way more to Matt being able to react to the bullet than just him being a bullet timer.
Haha no worries, I circled it out for clarity. Assuming we are talking about the same scan lol.
Yea I think one of us got confused (probably me) lol. I thought you were talking about this scan:
Anyways Matt can hear bullets whistling through the air and it might not mean that is how he is dodging them. Bullets as I said move faster than sound so he can't rely on hearing to detect a bullet. That just doesn't make sense unless those bullets are moving slower than sound I guess.
Where does it say he is not talking about aim dodging, specifically?. I mean technically speaking, aim dodging and bullet dodging both yield the same results. Which is not getting hit by the bullet.
Well Mark Waid has written showings where Matt clearly has used his senses to aim dodge.
So Matt definitely avoided gunfire under Mark Waid. But he never showed any bullet timing feats.
@jashro44: But DD's blind though, he has to rely on the radar sense. and where is it explictly stated or showing he aim dodges bullet?
He can't be using his radar sense to bullet time. Radar sense has to do with sensing the projectiles; it doesn't give him the necessary SPEED to intercept them after they've been fired. There are plenty of instances of people shooting at him, then him bouncing the bullet away afterward. Heck, there's an instance of ALL of his senses being knocked out, Bushwhacker shooting at him from behind at a range of 10', and Matt somehow turning around AFTER the bullet has been fired and swatting it away.
That's reflexes and speed, not radar sense.
Cripes, Matt has a feat where he picks up a sniper round that's flying toward him, explicitly noted in the art as it being about 5' away when he realizes it's coming, not 100's of feet away. He still manages to dodge it, though it scrapes his cheek (thus firmly putting him 'below Cass' for speed, but still bloody fast).
That is why I uploaded the scan from Stan Lee's run.
Matt's radar sense allows him to pay close attention to the gun and time his movements accordingly. His movements are just that precise. Its not that Matt has radar senses, its the way he uses it and the way it functions, that makes me not think these feats are bullet timing.
Matt actually does have a feat where he indisputably moves after the shot is fired, but it's quite dated and could be argued as inconsistent.
@jashro44: Speed and reflexes are needed to perform the feats. Sensing something only dictates that. If you don't have the other to then he's not going to be able to do anything but sense it and get shot.
Just using this scan as a example.
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