- 616 Bucky Barnes
- Adrian Veidt
- MCU Bucky Barnes
- MCU Steve Rogers
- 616 Bucky has full knowledge of the trio
- Blood lusted
- Morals off
- Out of character
616 Bucky Barnes vs Live Action Trio
@gcpd said:
616 Bucky destroys them.
How?
@darthaznable said:
616 Bucky is better in just about every way.
Then all three of them combined? He's certainly not as intelligent as Veidt and not overly superior in most physicals to the SS users.
@brucerogers said:
616 Bucky, with the combination of stealth, gear and superior stats/fighting skills and prep
It says full knowledge, not prep. Battlefield hasn't been mentioned so I'm unsure if stealth is an option. Feats for Bucky being a significantly better fighter/having better gear or superior stats?
Particularly doubtful of stats given I've seen this scan floating around;
Not trying to call you out but I really think you're underestimating the live-action team here based on what I know of Bucky (which admittedly isn't a lot).
@buildhare:Sure.
Bucky's demonstrated base strength sufficient to send Crossbones flying with one punch and nearly K.O him outright with two.
Crossbones of course having respectable enough strength in his own right, sufficient to snap the necks of superhuman werewolves..
..and durability allowing to shrug off falling from a helicopter, through a billboard and landing his head on brick and mortar.
Even MCU Cap isn't capable of just completely brushing a fall like this off. He may have beaten MCU Crossbones, but that version would perform just as badly if not worse against 616 Rumlow in a h2h encounter. This is the same Rumlow that has been trained extensively by Taskmaster and later the finest fighters in Europe courtesy of Red Skull, and has used that skill to hold his own against Steve Rogers on more than one occasion.
A lot of people like to reference Steve's ability to hold his own against characters stronger than him, but Bucky's performed better against similar opponents well above his strength level..like Mr. Hyde for instance. A bonafide 50 tonner who, at his best is capable of competing with Thor to some degree. Yet Bucky has managed to send him flying with a single blow from his mechanical arm.
MCU Cap has never done anything like this to Ultron, Loki or hell even Tony in his Civil War suit, all of which are weaker than Mr. Hyde.
Now as far as skill goes, Bucky outclasses them all quite frankly. This is the same guy who has outfought 616 Black Widow, who's respective feats include deflecting a sniper round from the Punisher, stomping over a hundred armed terrorists in a matter of minutes, and stomping a superhuman swordfighter in the form of Iron Scorpion. While MCU Bucky has performed similarly against his own universe's version of Natasha, she is a farcry from her 616 counterpart in every way. Hell, I'd argue Natasha has a good chance of beating either of these two on her own by virtue of superior showings in every category sans strength. MCU Cap and Bucky just don't have the showings or experience to compete with a character like Bucky.
This isn't even getting into Bucky's ridiculous level of accuracy with firearms, or his ability to generate an electric discharge from his arm that was sufficient to momentarily incapacitate The Man With No Face, a Namor level superhuman.
Bucky's demonstrated base strength sufficient to send Crossbones flying with one punch and nearly K.O him outright with two.
Hurting Crossbones badly is impressive but it's no better then MCU Bucky knocking out MCU Cap by punching him into an elevator shaft, and is visually inferior (in distance travelled) to nearly all of their decent striking feats.
Crossbones of course having respectable enough strength in his own right, sufficient to snap the necks of superhuman werewolves..
What does his strength have to do with it? It's Bucky's striking and Rumlow's durability that matter.
And aren't 616 Werewolves low level super humans? What puts that above or on par with Steve ripping apart Ultron bots or WS crushing Iron Man's repulsors?
..and durability allowing to shrug off falling from a helicopter, through a billboard and landing his head on brick and mortar.
Even MCU Cap isn't capable of just completely brushing a fall like this off.
By the looks of it neither was Crossbones.
He may have beaten MCU Crossbones, but that version would perform just as badly if not worse against 616 Rumlow in a h2h encounter. This is the same Rumlow that has been trained extensively by Taskmaster and later the finest fighters in Europe courtesy of Red Skull, and has used that skill to hold his own against Steve Rogers on more than one occasion.
I don't doubt 616 Crossbones probably has better feats then his MCU counterpart, but it seems he's a far better match for 616 Bucky then MCU Rumlow was for Steve.
A lot of people like to reference Steve's ability to hold his own against characters stronger than him, but Bucky's performed better against similar opponents well above his strength level..like Mr. Hyde for instance. A bonafide 50 tonner who, at his best is capable of competing with Thor to some degree. Yet Bucky has managed to send him flying with a single blow from his mechanical arm.
Same issue as with the Crossbones feat you used, Hyde's strength level has nothing to do with how far Bucky can punch him, just his weight.
MCU Cap has never done anything like this to Ultron, Loki or hell even Tony in his Civil War suit, all of which are weaker than Mr. Hyde.
Does Hyde have the ability to fly, or to anchor himself to the ground? Because if not his strength means nothing in regards to that feat. Unless in the next scan it's clear he was sent flying that's not better then MCU SSS level physicals at all.
Steve did something better to Ultron;
Granted it was a throw as opposed to a strike but it was with one arm and his opponent is almost certainly heavier then Hyde. The fact he threw him with enough force to fly straight through a concrete support is also impressive.
Now as far as skill goes, Bucky outclasses them all quite frankly. This is the same guy who has outfought 616 Black Widow,
Okay.
who's respective feats include deflecting a sniper round from the Punisher,
That sounds a lot more like a speed feat then a skill one.
stomping over a hundred armed terrorists in a matter of minutes,
This is impressive but I need a bit more information on the scenario. MCU WS cleared an entire airfield of shield members in about a minute, so even if that feat is impressive it wouldn't outclass the live-action characters (that's assuming she didn't do it melee).
stomping a superhuman swordfighter in the form of Iron Scorpion.
Doesn't sound like he's a somebody given his lack of apperances, what's he done to justify it being above theirs?
While MCU Bucky has performed similarly against his own universe's version of Natasha, she is a farcry from her 616 counterpart in every way.
Yeah Natasha hasn't beaten the amount of people her 616 counterpart has (the terrorists at least) but MCU Bucky has, and he's the one that matters here.
Hell, I'd argue Natasha has a good chance of beating either of these two on her own by virtue of superior showings in every category sans strength.
Just seems like she's faster.
MCU Cap and Bucky just don't have the showings or experience to compete with a character like Bucky.
Where are these showings! You guys keep talking about them and I really appreciate you (and brucerogers) taking the time to make an actual case for Bucky in this thread rather then do the usual comic v live-action crap, but the showings you guys are using don't reflect this statement. I'm almost certain Bucky is faster then his MCU opponents, but that's where the advantages (or at least clear ones) begin and end with what you've posted.
This isn't even getting into Bucky's ridiculous level of accuracy with firearms
No one here is struggling to hit a human sized target. I'm not sure it's relevant that he can hit a fly while MCU Bucky can only hit a hummingbird when both are capable of oneshotting the other with a shot at something far bigger then either (i.e headshots). That's not accounting for the fact that everyone here can react to the projectiles used, which kind of negates the superior accuracy anyway.
or his ability to generate an electric discharge from his arm that was sufficient to momentarily incapacitate The Man With No Face, a Namor level superhuman.
Why doesn't he use this ability in every fight? Is there any limiter on it or is it just not in character for him to spam it?
@brucerogers said:
@buildhare said:
@juiceboks said:
@nfactor1995: He's done more and better against characters with more and better feats than the ones Steve has faced.
You want to elaborate? Because from what @brucerogers has been saying he has them, but none presented have actually outclassed what these guys can do or already have done bar one speed feat.
Like I said, I will post more when I can, but you think Ozy can beat the likes of Crossbones and the serpent society at the same time or stagger/KO 10 tonners?. I highly doubt that. Cap probably could maybe take on Ursa Major, but again I am not so sure.
I'm not really talking about Ozy at this point, although I haven't really seen anything from Crossbones that would make him too much for Ozy to handle. He doesn't have feats against 10 tonners but from the way he fought at the end of Watchmen I wouldn't rule it out, ragdolling full grown men across an amphitheatre sized room is impressive, and I've got no doubt he could take a hit (sustained hits to his unguarded face from Nite Owl II (who while overall is fairly unimpressive, has awesome striking) barely phased him).
Where's a good place to start reading about WS?
Hurting Crossbones badly is impressive but it's no better then MCU Bucky knocking out MCU Cap by punching him into an elevator shaft, and is visually inferior (in distance travelled) to nearly all of their decent striking feats.
1. Bucky punching Steve in that instance is a showing for his bionic arm, the feat I brought up happened with Bucky's regular arm.
2. That was a push, not a punch.
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3. Steve was knocked out by the fall, not the push itself.
4. The only instances of Steve and Bucky sending enemies flying farther than that with strikes are against fodder, which Rumlow is far from. Techniques like bracing for impact and rolling with punches that are usually lost on them, are certainly utilized by someone as skilled as 616 Crossbones to prevent him from flying away after getting hit by Red Skull or 616 Steve..in addition to his own respectable level of strength.
What does his strength have to do with it? It's Bucky's striking and Rumlow's durability that matter.
Strength plays more a part in this feat than his durability, same way Steve can meet Bucky's punches with his body and not get sent careening back like fodder.
And aren't 616 Werewolves low level super humans? What puts that above or on par with Steve ripping apart Ultron bots or WS crushing Iron Man's repulsors?
Yes, and nothing for the second one. I'm not asserting that Rumlow is as strong as MCU Bucky or Steve..so I'm not sure why you're attacking this feat as if I was.
By the looks of it neither was Crossbones.
That's because you haven't read the story or seen the next panel..
I don't doubt 616 Crossbones probably has better feats then his MCU counterpart, but it seems he's a far better match for 616 Bucky then MCU Rumlow was for Steve.
He most definitely does. 616 Crossbones is also a far better match for MCU Steve than he was for 616 Bucky, in fact I'd argue he'd beat him by virtue of his superior h2h skill and overall performances against 616 Steve.
Same issue as with the Crossbones feat you used, Hyde's strength level has nothing to do with how far Bucky can punch him, just his weight.
By that logic, Luke Cage should be able to send Hulk flying with his punches since he only weighs half a ton. Strength matters considerably when tanking hits, durability only comes into play with the damage it inflicts on the body. One's ability to resist force acting on them comes from their strength, unless in cases where their body density greatly exceeds their strength level as with people like Tombstone. Bucky had the striking power to not only move but also visibily hurt Mr. Hyde, which is much different than Steve simply tossing Ultron only to have him brush it off like nothing happened.
Granted it was a throw as opposed to a strike but it was with one arm and his opponent is almost certainly heavier then Hyde. The fact he threw him with enough force to fly straight through a concrete support is also impressive.
Steve threw Ultron with enough force to break off a sizeable chunk of concrete pillar, Bucky hit Hyde hard enough to send him reeling. One is a striking power showing, the other is a lifting strength one. One had the character hurt a much stronger one, the other had him just throw his opponent. The feats aren't comparable for those reasons, MCU Steve doesn't have any comparable showings to that. He lacks the striking power to hurt characters noticeably above his strength level, Bucky doesn't. Steve doesn't have anything comparable to Bucky getting the better of an enraged 50's Cap, who is not only physically superior to Bucky but is stated to be 2x 616 Steve's all around physical superior as well.
That sounds a lot more like a speed feat then a skill one.
Natasha doesn't have enhanced speed, so it is actually a result of her trained reflexes. Otherwise known as a skill she's honed..something no one in the MCU has yet to come close to replicating.
This is impressive but I need a bit more information on the scenario. MCU WS cleared an entire airfield of shield members in about a minute, so even if that feat is impressive it wouldn't outclass the live-action characters
When did Bucky clear an entire airfield? The most he's ever fought at a time was maybe a dozen soldiers, if even that. Natasha's feat was a combination of stealth, h2h and her weapons. Similar to Cap's feat on the ship in Cap 2, but with more than 17 fodder soldiers.
what's he done to justify it being above theirs
He's cut through a pistol, a thick log and is accurate enough to throw a dart into the barrel of a gun. Steve and Bucky have never stomped anyone with feats through virtue of skill. The closest thing would be MCU Bucky overpowering Natasha in CQC.
Natasha has also stalemated Elektra in cqc, and her showings consist of deflecting automatic gunfire with her sais while leaping to the gunman, giving Daredevil good fights who himself has beaten 107 Yakuza members half of whom were hyped on a strength enhancing drug, and beating Lady Bullseye which is a feat only a handful of fighters in Marvel could replicate according to her.
Yeah Natasha hasn't beaten the amount of people her 616 counterpart has (the terrorists at least) but MCU Bucky has, and he's the one that matters here.
No he hasn't, and he hasn't fought the level of skilled opponents 616 Natasha has either. And Bucky trained her..
Just seems like she's faster.
And more skilled.
I'm almost certain Bucky is faster then his MCU opponents, but that's where the advantages (or at least clear ones) begin and end with what you've posted.
At this point it's looking like I'm going to have write entire essays to describe what 616 street levelers are capable of, because you're not really grasping how little h2h skill MCU characters have demonstrated for the most part. MCU Bucky and Steve comes into play when they fight each other and characters that can physically compete with them. They don't have Bucky's showings against characters physically well above them all around, but still retaining a respectable amount of h2h skill in their own right.
No one here is struggling to hit a human sized target. I'm not sure it's relevant that he can hit a fly while MCU Bucky can only hit a hummingbird when both are capable of oneshotting the other with a shot at something far bigger then either (i.e headshots). That's not accounting for the fact that everyone here can react to the projectiles used, which kind of negates the superior accuracy anyway.
Really now? Bucky's ability to outreact bullets from marksmen both skilled and fodder is playing nothing into this matchup? His ability to shoot out Wolverine's vitals in mid lunge in such a way that momentarily puts him down as opposed to him just plowing through them as per usual is completely irrelevant? Because MCU Bucky himself has never missed a shot against Steve, and the shots he has landed have failed to be killing ones. Because the only time he's ever actually killed someone with a gun were nameless fodder, as opposed to in combat against superhuman combatants and top tier martial artists. The only human-sized target worth his weight Bucky has ever shot at has managed to evade his shots, so why can't 616 Bucky who is Steve's clear superior in skill and speed perform better? And on the same token, it's ridiculous to assume a bullet-timer can't ever be shot by a skilled enough marksman as is disproved by people like Punisher and 616 Bucky himself.
Don't talk as if Bucky's superior accuracy is irrelevant. That's a very lazy argument for characters that don't have showings to compare.
Why doesn't he use this ability in every fight? Is there any limiter on it or is it just not in character for him to spam it?
He doesn't spam because he usually doesn't need to, and I'm not arguing he'll spam it here. It's an ability he can fall back on if need be, and something he has used when necessary.
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