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#1 Edited by AbelHsu (3533 posts) - - Show Bio
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  • 616 Bucky Barnes
  • Adrian Veidt
  • MCU Bucky Barnes
  • MCU Steve Rogers
  • 616 Bucky has full knowledge of the trio
  • Blood lusted
  • Morals off
  • Out of character
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#2 Posted by BruceRogers (17448 posts) - - Show Bio

616 Bucky, with the combination of stealth, gear and superior stats/fighting skills and prep

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#3 Posted by DarthAznable (16928 posts) - - Show Bio

616 Bucky is better in just about every way.

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#4 Edited by GCPD (421 posts) - - Show Bio

616 Bucky destroys them.

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#5 Posted by buildhare (8709 posts) - - Show Bio
@gcpd said:

616 Bucky destroys them.

How?

616 Bucky is better in just about every way.

Then all three of them combined? He's certainly not as intelligent as Veidt and not overly superior in most physicals to the SS users.

616 Bucky, with the combination of stealth, gear and superior stats/fighting skills and prep

It says full knowledge, not prep. Battlefield hasn't been mentioned so I'm unsure if stealth is an option. Feats for Bucky being a significantly better fighter/having better gear or superior stats?

Particularly doubtful of stats given I've seen this scan floating around;

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Not trying to call you out but I really think you're underestimating the live-action team here based on what I know of Bucky (which admittedly isn't a lot).

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#6 Posted by Cosmic_Templar (2571 posts) - - Show Bio

616 Bucky with low to mid difficulty. He's more skilled, faster and stronger than all of them. I just don't see them taking him down.

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#7 Edited by BruceRogers (17448 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: Well to be fair, he was referring to 616 Steve, who possibly barring strength, is better than MCU Steve in every way. But you are right, maybe saying he is superior everywhere is a bit of a stretch. It's not just his stats though. Skill wise, he has beaten the likes of the 10+ton Ursa major while starving and weakened in a Russian gulag and has beaten the 4-5 ton William Burnside who is a super soldier with superior stats to Steve himself. So any possible stat advantage team 2 has is not going to be a problem for him. He has briefly stalemated 616 Steve too and has outright beaten Natasha while holding back.

Reflexes wise, he blocked bullets after they were fired at someone else by throwing his shield with impeccable timing and accuracy. He has also cut hawkeyes arrows with his knife

Veidt may be smarter than him in the same sense Amadeus Cho is, but that does not necessarily mean he is a better combatant. Bucky just has better feats in general and has far better gear. I think he outstats veidt in every category too. He has a skill advantage over either of team 2.

I am not saying he wins just because he is a comic book character. It is just that we have far more to work with in terms of his feats.

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#8 Posted by Supermanforever (8509 posts) - - Show Bio

@gcpd said:

616 Bucky destroys them.

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#9 Posted by BruceRogers (17448 posts) - - Show Bio

That said, I don't see 616 Bucky stomping at all.

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#10 Posted by buildhare (8709 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

Well to be fair, he was referring to 616 Steve, who possibly barring strength, is better than MCU Steve in every way. But you are right, maybe saying he is superior everywhere is a bit of a stretch. It's not just his stats though. Skill wise, he has beaten the likes of the 10+ton Ursa major while starving and weakened in a Russian gulag and has beaten the 4-5 ton William Burnside who is a super soldier with superior stats to Steve himself. So any possible stat advantage team 2 has is not going to be a problem for him.

Having a stat advantage is always helpful. So he's beaten people as strong as them before, but as fast, skilled and as many as these guys, at the same time? Beating a 10+ tonner is good, but the people he's facing have fought people significantly stronger then that with semi-regularity, even their fodder is extremely superhuman (i.e Ultron bots digging through concrete and brushing off cars).

Reflexes wise, he blocked bullets after they were fired at someone else by throwing his shield with impeccable timing and accuracy.

As in, intercepted the bullets?

If that's the case he's faster but not by a whole lot (SS users capable of blocking bullets after they've been fired, Ozymandias having caught one). If not then there isn't a speed gap at all.

He has also cut hawkeyes arrows with his knife

Reacting to arrows is a staple at this point.

Veidt may be smarter than him in the same sense Amadeus Cho is, but that does not necessarily mean he is a better combatant.

He stomped Roarcshach and Nite Owl II with no effort (and assuming the prequel comic is canon reacts to bullets and processes situations in slow motion by virtue of this same skill), I think he may be more skilled.

Bucky just has better feats in general

Of the things you've mentioned (with the possible exception of the shield/bullet feat) apparently not at all.

has far better gear.

What's his gear?

I think he outstats veidt in every category too.

Agreed, with the possible exception of speed.

He has a skill advantage over either of team 2.

Not seeing a whole lot to support this. Beating 10+ tonners through skill is good, but holding off against 60+ tonners in the same way is clearly better.

It is just that we have far more to work with in terms of his feats.

I understand he has far more feats but the ones you've used here aren't much better if at all in most areas.

I am not saying he wins just because he is a comic book character.

I know you're not biased or anything, I just think you may be giving him the benefit of the doubt without real justification, whether you know it or not.

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#11 Posted by g2_ (11623 posts) - - Show Bio

Bucky wins, and this is not a stomp.

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#12 Posted by BruceRogers (17448 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: Having a stat advantage is always helpful. So he's beaten people as strong as them before, but as fast, skilled and as many as these guys, at the same time? Beating a 10+ tonner is good, but the people he's facing have fought people significantly stronger then that with semi-regularity, even their fodder is extremely superhuman (i.e Ultron bots digging through concrete and brushing off cars).

I don't think any of the Ultron bots are 10 or even 3 tonners though. Plus they are still bots and beating them is not quite comparable to beating a reasonably intelligent werebear with decent skill. or 50s Cap (burnside) or Crossbones or even Nuke. He was also tanking hits from Major, which is a good durability feat for him too.

As in, intercepted the bullets?

If that's the case he's faster but not by a whole lot (SS users capable of blocking bullets after they've been fired, Ozymandias having caught one). If not then there isn't a speed gap at all.

No he threw it after the bullets were fired IIRC. He has also dodged multiple of them fired in the same fashion. Ozy caught one bullet though.

Reacting to arrows is a staple at this point.

Fair point, but they were fired by Hawkeye. Also he literally cut it in half with his knife in a downwards motion, for what it's worth.

He stomped Roarcshach and Nite Owl II with no effort (and assuming the prequel comic is canon reacts to bullets and processes situations in slow motion by virtue of this same skill), I think he may be more skilled.

Yes, but neither Rorschach or Nite Owl are anything that great when put in the mainstream 616 universe. Honestly speaking, they would be no higher than Sharon Carter. Bucky would fodderise them pretty easily too.

Of the things you've mentioned (with the possible exception of the shield/bullet feat) apparently not at all.

Hmm, I know I have barely posted anything, but I would love to get back to this when I get a little more time.

What's his gear?

His suit is impact resistant and he carries a decent amount of firearms and is pretty handy with them. His cybernetic arm can also discharge electric shocks.

Agreed, with the possible exception of speed.

Doubt it.

Not seeing a whole lot to support this. Beating 10+ tonners through skill is good, but holding off against 60+ tonners in the same way is clearly better.

Are you referring to Iron Man?. I doubt he was 60+ tons during that scene at least

I know you're not biased or anything, I just think you may be giving him the benefit of the doubt without real justification, whether you know it or not.

Your right. I don't think I have really made a convincing case for him. Like I said, I will read through some of my Bucky issues and get back to this and make a proper case

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#13 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11922 posts) - - Show Bio
  • "Bucky destroys"
  • > Every other thread says MCU Cap > 616 Cap's physicals

I back Bucky winning, though. MCU Super Soldiers, in comparison to their 616 counterparts, are, imo, wanked like all hell.

These 2 soldiers might've stood up against Iron Man, but Buck has actually stalemated Extremis Iron Man using the environment.

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#14 Posted by BruceRogers (17448 posts) - - Show Bio

  • "Bucky destroys"
  • > Every other thread says MCU Cap > 616 Cap's physicals

I back Bucky winning, though. MCU Super Soldiers, in comparison to their 616 counterparts, are, imo, wanked like all hell.

These 2 soldiers might've stood up against Iron Man, but Buck has actually stalemated Extremis Iron Man using the environment.

Not really. Tony would never go all out against a street leveller, much less against someone whom a close friend (Cap) had requested to take care off, before he died.

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#15 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11922 posts) - - Show Bio

@supremegeneration said:
  • "Bucky destroys"
  • > Every other thread says MCU Cap > 616 Cap's physicals

I back Bucky winning, though. MCU Super Soldiers, in comparison to their 616 counterparts, are, imo, wanked like all hell.

These 2 soldiers might've stood up against Iron Man, but Buck has actually stalemated Extremis Iron Man using the environment.

Not really. Tony would never go all out against a street leveller, much less against someone whom a close friend (Cap) had requested to take care off, before he died.

While I agree, it's still a good feat. It's not like you're going to be massively holding back against someone trying to kill you, either.

I need to go re-read some of the stuff he's in...

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#16 Edited by BruceRogers (17448 posts) - - Show Bio

@supremegeneration: I wouldn't even call that a fight. All they did was have a very short scuffle

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#17 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11922 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by captain_batman_FTW (8905 posts) - - Show Bio

616 Bucky wrecks

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#19 Posted by LDM (5362 posts) - - Show Bio

Team

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#20 Posted by buildhare (8709 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers:

don't think any of the Ultron bots are 10 or even 3 tonners though.

They're definitely around that level given they have dug upwards through the ground into a city, then lifted and pushed aside cars on top of them. They were very strong.

Plus they are still bots and beating them is not quite comparable to beating a reasonably intelligent werebear with decent skill.

That depends on how skilled the werebear was. The Ultron bots are fodder to Cap, but they were physically imposing and very well armed.

or 50s Cap (burnside) or Crossbones or even Nuke. He was also tanking hits from Major, which is a good durability feat for him too.

I don't know how impressive those are supposed to be (bar the last one, which as I've said is inferior to durability feats from the MCU Duo) but my point was that the Ultron bots are everyday for them, fodder. I think that comparing them to Bucky's feats of beating named characters like Nuke is telling.

No he threw it after the bullets were fired IIRC. He has also dodged multiple of them fired in the same fashion. Ozy caught one bullet though.

Yeah he's faster then.

Fair point, but they were fired by Hawkeye. Also he literally cut it in half with his knife in a downwards motion, for what it's worth.

It is cool (at least visually) whenever it's done, but it's not exactly a high end street level feat (MCU Daredevil can easily deflect arrows with his batons for instance).

Yes, but neither Rorschach or Nite Owl are anything that great when put in the mainstream 616 universe. Honestly speaking, they would be no higher than Sharon Carter. Bucky would fodderise them pretty easily too.

They could fodderize groups of people and punch them flying/straight through bone. I agree they're low street but based on what I've seen from Bucky elsewhere and heard here I doubt he would fodderize them with no effort, which is exactly what Ozy did.

His suit is impact resistant and he carries a decent amount of firearms and is pretty handy with them. His cybernetic arm can also discharge electric shocks.

How impact resistant? I'm not sure Bucky's suit has feats but even Cap's WW2 Era suit could stand up to a German bayonet so we know they aren't bad, it's just the MCU puts an emphasis on their durability via stats rather than equipment.

Firearms isn't anything special, Bucky has an entire arsenal as his standard gear and I dare say the shield is better then anything 616 Barnes has.

That sounds cool, how powerful are they? Projectiles?

Are you referring to Iron Man?. I doubt he was 60+ tons during that scene at least

I'm referring to all of them. War-Machine is 120% a 60 tonner (lifted a heavily armoured Hammer-Tech tank in the Tie-ins, as well as in the story he tells during AOU), Ultron was a physical peer to AOU Iron Man which puts him around (or slightly above) that level and Civil War Iron Man was still capable of brushing off a pile of cars and knocking out Giant Man (with the help of WM). He might have been slightly under that as it seemed more of a speedy suit, but bar a few instances I would outline as PIS (Bucky overpowering Iron Man with his organic arm once in the fight, whereas for the rest of it he was putting them in holds they couldn't escape) I think that general lowballing of CW Iron Man to pretend he's weak, rather than recognising that fighting people of that tier is something that they do consistently and is in line with their abilities is a bit stupid.

Hmm, I know I have barely posted anything, but I would love to get back to this when I get a little more time.

Your right. I don't think I have really made a convincing case for him. Like I said, I will read through some of my Bucky issues and get back to this and make a proper case

I've got a few CaV's to finish but this is something I would be interested in doing once I've read a bit more about Bucky.

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#21 Posted by nfactor1995 (12932 posts) - - Show Bio

Trio

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#22 Edited by BruceRogers (17448 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: They're definitely around that level given they have dug upwards through the ground into a city, then lifted and pushed aside cars on top of them. They were very strong.

I doubt they were 10 tonners though.

That depends on how skilled the werebear was. The Ultron bots are fodder to Cap, but they were physically imposing and very well armed.

Well he is decently skilled, nothing special. Bucky KOed him when exhausted and beaten up.

I don't know how impressive those are supposed to be (bar the last one, which as I've said is inferior to durability feats from the MCU Duo) but my point was that the Ultron bots are everyday for them, fodder. I think that comparing them to Bucky's feats of beating named characters like Nuke is telling.

Well William Burnside was used as a Cap clone back in the 50s when Steve was still frozen in ice. He even took on Steve's name and appearance. He is nowhere near Roger's level in skill but he is far from your average brawler. He is pretty good in skill. But he was said to be twice as strong and fast as Steve.

Crossbones is a better fighter than arguably anyone from the second team even though he may not be as physically adept as them. Still he did give Cap good fights back in the day and is a pretty good teambuster (beating the young allies on his own) and almost killed Bullseye. I will need to look back on his other feats though.

616 Nuke is a far cry from his MCU counterpart. He may be insane, but he is a freaking tank in an almost literal sense. I am talking shrugging off automatic bullets Superman style and no selling a grenade blast to the face. Bucky managed to put a hurting on him. He is pretty skilled too.

As for his other feats add beating Batroc or soloing Sin, Crossbones and most of the serpent society.

They could fodderize groups of people and punch them flying/straight through bone. I agree they're low street but based on what I've seen from Bucky elsewhere and heard here I doubt he would fodderize them with no effort, which is exactly what Ozy did.

Agreed, but I wasn't being hyperbolic when I was comparing them to Sharon Carter. She herself has done the same through armed fodder (albeit not so gruesomely) and has stayed conscious after getting her head banged into concrete with enough force to cause a huge crack on it. From the looks of it, they are more in her league then guys like Bucky.

And yes, Bucky will beat them with the same amount of ease Ozy did. Perhaps even easier since he hits far harder.

How impact resistant? I'm not sure Bucky's suit has feats but even Cap's WW2 Era suit could stand up to a German bayonet so we know they aren't bad, it's just the MCU puts an emphasis on their durability via stats rather than equipment.

Well it did help him when he was deflecting a rpg with his shield and has enabled him to take hits from Master Man, who is a class 50. I think it is bulletproof too. On a side note, Bucky hurting MM is a good striking feat for him too.

Firearms isn't anything special, Bucky has an entire arsenal as his standard gear and I dare say the shield is better then anything 616 Barnes has.

No, but in the hands of a master marksman, they are very deadly. He is at par with Frank Castle with those, if not Deadshot.

That sounds cool, how powerful are they? Projectiles?

No he uses them in close quarters and it is a discharge. He hasn't used in on someone as durable as the Supersoldiers, but he did KO a cape killer in combat armour. It should be enough to catch them off guard at least.

I'm referring to all of them. War-Machine is 120% a 60 tonner (lifted a heavily armoured Hammer-Tech tank in the Tie-ins, as well as in the story he tells during AOU), Ultron was a physical peer to AOU Iron Man which puts him around (or slightly above) that level and Civil War Iron Man was still capable of brushing off a pile of cars and knocking out Giant Man (with the help of WM). He might have been slightly under that as it seemed more of a speedy suit, but bar a few instances I would outline as PIS (Bucky overpowering Iron Man with his organic arm once in the fight, whereas for the rest of it he was putting them in holds they couldn't escape) I think that general lowballing of CW Iron Man to pretend he's weak, rather than recognising that fighting people of that tier is something that they do consistently and is in line with their abilities is a bit stupid.

Sounds fair

I've got a few CaV's to finish but this is something I would be interested in doing once I've read a bit more about Bucky.

Alright

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#23 Posted by Tony_Shark (2084 posts) - - Show Bio

  • "Bucky destroys"
  • > Every other thread says MCU Cap > 616 Cap's physicals

I back Bucky winning, though. MCU Super Soldiers, in comparison to their 616 counterparts, are, imo, wanked like all hell.

These 2 soldiers might've stood up against Iron Man, but Buck has actually stalemated Extremis Iron Man using the environment.

Wasn't Tony just trying to recruit him?

He even clowns Bucky when he tries using an emp against Stark and it falls short.

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#25 Posted by AbelHsu (3533 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by Guru_Crack (11568 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't seen 616 Bucky to comment fairly. I would be shocked if he could take down Ozymandias though as in the live action film of Watchmen it was OP in every category and that coupled with his supreme intellect would have me doubting Bucky's chances.

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#27 Posted by nfactor1995 (12932 posts) - - Show Bio

What exactly makes 616 Bucky more skilled than MCU Cap?

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#28 Posted by buildhare (8709 posts) - - Show Bio

@nfactor1995:

I think most of the reasoning behind it is more feats (and potentially more outliers as well).

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#29 Posted by Pipxeroth (9294 posts) - - Show Bio

Bucky

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#30 Posted by _Logos_ (1911 posts) - - Show Bio

Our knowledge on Ozy is so vague (I think) we know Cap and Bucky in the movie are both pretty good at fighting though. I'd say trio over powers Bucky (comics) and wins.

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#31 Posted by juiceboks (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

@nfactor1995: He's done more and better against characters with more and better feats than the ones Steve has faced.

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#32 Posted by buildhare (8709 posts) - - Show Bio

@nfactor1995: He's done more and better against characters with more and better feats than the ones Steve has faced.

You want to elaborate? Because from what @brucerogers has been saying he has them, but none presented have actually outclassed what these guys can do or already have done bar one speed feat.

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#33 Posted by lubub55 (12934 posts) - - Show Bio

What exactly makes 616 Bucky more skilled than MCU Cap?

Comic wank and scaling off of high end feats from unrelated characters and writers.

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#34 Posted by nfactor1995 (12932 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by PayneInTheAss (11763 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by AbelHsu (3533 posts) - - Show Bio

@payneintheass: Guess that really matters...I'd say they're fighting in a forest of Canada.

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#37 Edited by PayneInTheAss (11763 posts) - - Show Bio

@abelhsu said:

@payneintheass: Guess that really matters...I'd say they're fighting in a forest of Canada.

Alright.

1. You should add that to the op

2. 616 Barnes should win in that location tbh

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#38 Posted by ConnorDorian (1320 posts) - - Show Bio

Earth-616 Barnes should win

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#39 Edited by juiceboks (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare:Sure.

Bucky's demonstrated base strength sufficient to send Crossbones flying with one punch and nearly K.O him outright with two.

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Crossbones of course having respectable enough strength in his own right, sufficient to snap the necks of superhuman werewolves..

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..and durability allowing to shrug off falling from a helicopter, through a billboard and landing his head on brick and mortar.

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Even MCU Cap isn't capable of just completely brushing a fall like this off. He may have beaten MCU Crossbones, but that version would perform just as badly if not worse against 616 Rumlow in a h2h encounter. This is the same Rumlow that has been trained extensively by Taskmaster and later the finest fighters in Europe courtesy of Red Skull, and has used that skill to hold his own against Steve Rogers on more than one occasion.

A lot of people like to reference Steve's ability to hold his own against characters stronger than him, but Bucky's performed better against similar opponents well above his strength level..like Mr. Hyde for instance. A bonafide 50 tonner who, at his best is capable of competing with Thor to some degree. Yet Bucky has managed to send him flying with a single blow from his mechanical arm.

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MCU Cap has never done anything like this to Ultron, Loki or hell even Tony in his Civil War suit, all of which are weaker than Mr. Hyde.

Now as far as skill goes, Bucky outclasses them all quite frankly. This is the same guy who has outfought 616 Black Widow, who's respective feats include deflecting a sniper round from the Punisher, stomping over a hundred armed terrorists in a matter of minutes, and stomping a superhuman swordfighter in the form of Iron Scorpion. While MCU Bucky has performed similarly against his own universe's version of Natasha, she is a farcry from her 616 counterpart in every way. Hell, I'd argue Natasha has a good chance of beating either of these two on her own by virtue of superior showings in every category sans strength. MCU Cap and Bucky just don't have the showings or experience to compete with a character like Bucky.

This isn't even getting into Bucky's ridiculous level of accuracy with firearms, or his ability to generate an electric discharge from his arm that was sufficient to momentarily incapacitate The Man With No Face, a Namor level superhuman.

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#40 Posted by BruceRogers (17448 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks said:

@nfactor1995: He's done more and better against characters with more and better feats than the ones Steve has faced.

You want to elaborate? Because from what @brucerogers has been saying he has them, but none presented have actually outclassed what these guys can do or already have done bar one speed feat.

Like I said, I will post more when I can, but you think Ozy can beat the likes of Crossbones and the serpent society at the same time or stagger/KO 10 tonners?. I highly doubt that. Cap probably could maybe take on Ursa Major, but again I am not so sure.

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#41 Edited by buildhare (8709 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks:

Bucky's demonstrated base strength sufficient to send Crossbones flying with one punch and nearly K.O him outright with two.

Hurting Crossbones badly is impressive but it's no better then MCU Bucky knocking out MCU Cap by punching him into an elevator shaft, and is visually inferior (in distance travelled) to nearly all of their decent striking feats.

Crossbones of course having respectable enough strength in his own right, sufficient to snap the necks of superhuman werewolves..

What does his strength have to do with it? It's Bucky's striking and Rumlow's durability that matter.

And aren't 616 Werewolves low level super humans? What puts that above or on par with Steve ripping apart Ultron bots or WS crushing Iron Man's repulsors?

..and durability allowing to shrug off falling from a helicopter, through a billboard and landing his head on brick and mortar.

Even MCU Cap isn't capable of just completely brushing a fall like this off.

By the looks of it neither was Crossbones.

He may have beaten MCU Crossbones, but that version would perform just as badly if not worse against 616 Rumlow in a h2h encounter. This is the same Rumlow that has been trained extensively by Taskmaster and later the finest fighters in Europe courtesy of Red Skull, and has used that skill to hold his own against Steve Rogers on more than one occasion.

I don't doubt 616 Crossbones probably has better feats then his MCU counterpart, but it seems he's a far better match for 616 Bucky then MCU Rumlow was for Steve.

A lot of people like to reference Steve's ability to hold his own against characters stronger than him, but Bucky's performed better against similar opponents well above his strength level..like Mr. Hyde for instance. A bonafide 50 tonner who, at his best is capable of competing with Thor to some degree. Yet Bucky has managed to send him flying with a single blow from his mechanical arm.

Same issue as with the Crossbones feat you used, Hyde's strength level has nothing to do with how far Bucky can punch him, just his weight.

MCU Cap has never done anything like this to Ultron, Loki or hell even Tony in his Civil War suit, all of which are weaker than Mr. Hyde.

Does Hyde have the ability to fly, or to anchor himself to the ground? Because if not his strength means nothing in regards to that feat. Unless in the next scan it's clear he was sent flying that's not better then MCU SSS level physicals at all.

Steve did something better to Ultron;

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Granted it was a throw as opposed to a strike but it was with one arm and his opponent is almost certainly heavier then Hyde. The fact he threw him with enough force to fly straight through a concrete support is also impressive.

Now as far as skill goes, Bucky outclasses them all quite frankly. This is the same guy who has outfought 616 Black Widow,

Okay.

who's respective feats include deflecting a sniper round from the Punisher,

That sounds a lot more like a speed feat then a skill one.

stomping over a hundred armed terrorists in a matter of minutes,

This is impressive but I need a bit more information on the scenario. MCU WS cleared an entire airfield of shield members in about a minute, so even if that feat is impressive it wouldn't outclass the live-action characters (that's assuming she didn't do it melee).

stomping a superhuman swordfighter in the form of Iron Scorpion.

Doesn't sound like he's a somebody given his lack of apperances, what's he done to justify it being above theirs?

While MCU Bucky has performed similarly against his own universe's version of Natasha, she is a farcry from her 616 counterpart in every way.

Yeah Natasha hasn't beaten the amount of people her 616 counterpart has (the terrorists at least) but MCU Bucky has, and he's the one that matters here.

Hell, I'd argue Natasha has a good chance of beating either of these two on her own by virtue of superior showings in every category sans strength.

Just seems like she's faster.

MCU Cap and Bucky just don't have the showings or experience to compete with a character like Bucky.

Where are these showings! You guys keep talking about them and I really appreciate you (and brucerogers) taking the time to make an actual case for Bucky in this thread rather then do the usual comic v live-action crap, but the showings you guys are using don't reflect this statement. I'm almost certain Bucky is faster then his MCU opponents, but that's where the advantages (or at least clear ones) begin and end with what you've posted.

This isn't even getting into Bucky's ridiculous level of accuracy with firearms

No one here is struggling to hit a human sized target. I'm not sure it's relevant that he can hit a fly while MCU Bucky can only hit a hummingbird when both are capable of oneshotting the other with a shot at something far bigger then either (i.e headshots). That's not accounting for the fact that everyone here can react to the projectiles used, which kind of negates the superior accuracy anyway.

or his ability to generate an electric discharge from his arm that was sufficient to momentarily incapacitate The Man With No Face, a Namor level superhuman.

Why doesn't he use this ability in every fight? Is there any limiter on it or is it just not in character for him to spam it?

@buildhare said:
@juiceboks said:

@nfactor1995: He's done more and better against characters with more and better feats than the ones Steve has faced.

You want to elaborate? Because from what @brucerogers has been saying he has them, but none presented have actually outclassed what these guys can do or already have done bar one speed feat.

Like I said, I will post more when I can, but you think Ozy can beat the likes of Crossbones and the serpent society at the same time or stagger/KO 10 tonners?. I highly doubt that. Cap probably could maybe take on Ursa Major, but again I am not so sure.

I'm not really talking about Ozy at this point, although I haven't really seen anything from Crossbones that would make him too much for Ozy to handle. He doesn't have feats against 10 tonners but from the way he fought at the end of Watchmen I wouldn't rule it out, ragdolling full grown men across an amphitheatre sized room is impressive, and I've got no doubt he could take a hit (sustained hits to his unguarded face from Nite Owl II (who while overall is fairly unimpressive, has awesome striking) barely phased him).

Where's a good place to start reading about WS?

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#42 Posted by BruceRogers (17448 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: You could start from Captain America 2005 #34, where he debuted as Cap after Steve's death. Or his own series, where he teams up with Nat and performs spy missions (good stuff).

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#43 Posted by lubub55 (12934 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare: You could start from Captain America 2005 #34, where he debuted as Cap after Steve's death. Or his own series, where he teams up with Nat and performs spy missions (good stuff).

Or even better Captain America: Winter Soldier, which is what the movie was mostly adapted from.

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#44 Posted by BruceRogers (17448 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55 said:
@brucerogers said:

@buildhare: You could start from Captain America 2005 #34, where he debuted as Cap after Steve's death. Or his own series, where he teams up with Nat and performs spy missions (good stuff).

Or even better Captain America: Winter Soldier, which is what the movie was mostly adapted from.

Eh, he barely makes an appearance during the storyline, operating as that omnious unseen ghost. Not until the end of the story that is. I personally preferred his run as Cap better than his run as the WS.

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#45 Edited by lubub55 (12934 posts) - - Show Bio

@brucerogers: I think that would be the best place to start for a new reader though to introduce the character and get his backstory before moving on to other stories featuring him. That's the only one that actually goes over his origin as Bucky Barnes and as the Winter Soldier, which is quite different from the MCU version. I say read both, but read Winter Soldier first.

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#46 Posted by BruceRogers (17448 posts) - - Show Bio

@lubub55 said:

@brucerogers: I think that would be the best place to start for a new reader though to introduce the character and get his backstory before moving on to other stories featuring him. That's the only one that actually goes over his origin as Bucky Barnes and as the Winter Soldier, which is quite different from the MCU version. I say read both, but read Winter Soldier first.

Well I think buildhare is familiar with Bucky as a character at least, so I wouldn't exactly call him a new reader. Yeah you could get started with winter soldier, but if you want to see Bucky in action and develop as a character? You should start from when he picked up slack as Cap or his own series. That's how I did at least.

The winter soldier plotline is mostly about Steve and Sharon running around for clues and a couple of other things, but it does not feature Bucky all that much.

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#47 Posted by juiceboks (24876 posts) - - Show Bio

@buildhare:

Hurting Crossbones badly is impressive but it's no better then MCU Bucky knocking out MCU Cap by punching him into an elevator shaft, and is visually inferior (in distance travelled) to nearly all of their decent striking feats.

1. Bucky punching Steve in that instance is a showing for his bionic arm, the feat I brought up happened with Bucky's regular arm.

2. That was a push, not a punch.

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3. Steve was knocked out by the fall, not the push itself.

4. The only instances of Steve and Bucky sending enemies flying farther than that with strikes are against fodder, which Rumlow is far from. Techniques like bracing for impact and rolling with punches that are usually lost on them, are certainly utilized by someone as skilled as 616 Crossbones to prevent him from flying away after getting hit by Red Skull or 616 Steve..in addition to his own respectable level of strength.

What does his strength have to do with it? It's Bucky's striking and Rumlow's durability that matter.

Strength plays more a part in this feat than his durability, same way Steve can meet Bucky's punches with his body and not get sent careening back like fodder.

And aren't 616 Werewolves low level super humans? What puts that above or on par with Steve ripping apart Ultron bots or WS crushing Iron Man's repulsors?

Yes, and nothing for the second one. I'm not asserting that Rumlow is as strong as MCU Bucky or Steve..so I'm not sure why you're attacking this feat as if I was.

By the looks of it neither was Crossbones.

That's because you haven't read the story or seen the next panel..

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I don't doubt 616 Crossbones probably has better feats then his MCU counterpart, but it seems he's a far better match for 616 Bucky then MCU Rumlow was for Steve.

He most definitely does. 616 Crossbones is also a far better match for MCU Steve than he was for 616 Bucky, in fact I'd argue he'd beat him by virtue of his superior h2h skill and overall performances against 616 Steve.

Same issue as with the Crossbones feat you used, Hyde's strength level has nothing to do with how far Bucky can punch him, just his weight.

By that logic, Luke Cage should be able to send Hulk flying with his punches since he only weighs half a ton. Strength matters considerably when tanking hits, durability only comes into play with the damage it inflicts on the body. One's ability to resist force acting on them comes from their strength, unless in cases where their body density greatly exceeds their strength level as with people like Tombstone. Bucky had the striking power to not only move but also visibily hurt Mr. Hyde, which is much different than Steve simply tossing Ultron only to have him brush it off like nothing happened.

Granted it was a throw as opposed to a strike but it was with one arm and his opponent is almost certainly heavier then Hyde. The fact he threw him with enough force to fly straight through a concrete support is also impressive.

Steve threw Ultron with enough force to break off a sizeable chunk of concrete pillar, Bucky hit Hyde hard enough to send him reeling. One is a striking power showing, the other is a lifting strength one. One had the character hurt a much stronger one, the other had him just throw his opponent. The feats aren't comparable for those reasons, MCU Steve doesn't have any comparable showings to that. He lacks the striking power to hurt characters noticeably above his strength level, Bucky doesn't. Steve doesn't have anything comparable to Bucky getting the better of an enraged 50's Cap, who is not only physically superior to Bucky but is stated to be 2x 616 Steve's all around physical superior as well.

That sounds a lot more like a speed feat then a skill one.

Natasha doesn't have enhanced speed, so it is actually a result of her trained reflexes. Otherwise known as a skill she's honed..something no one in the MCU has yet to come close to replicating.

This is impressive but I need a bit more information on the scenario. MCU WS cleared an entire airfield of shield members in about a minute, so even if that feat is impressive it wouldn't outclass the live-action characters

When did Bucky clear an entire airfield? The most he's ever fought at a time was maybe a dozen soldiers, if even that. Natasha's feat was a combination of stealth, h2h and her weapons. Similar to Cap's feat on the ship in Cap 2, but with more than 17 fodder soldiers.

what's he done to justify it being above theirs

He's cut through a pistol, a thick log and is accurate enough to throw a dart into the barrel of a gun. Steve and Bucky have never stomped anyone with feats through virtue of skill. The closest thing would be MCU Bucky overpowering Natasha in CQC.

Natasha has also stalemated Elektra in cqc, and her showings consist of deflecting automatic gunfire with her sais while leaping to the gunman, giving Daredevil good fights who himself has beaten 107 Yakuza members half of whom were hyped on a strength enhancing drug, and beating Lady Bullseye which is a feat only a handful of fighters in Marvel could replicate according to her.

Yeah Natasha hasn't beaten the amount of people her 616 counterpart has (the terrorists at least) but MCU Bucky has, and he's the one that matters here.

No he hasn't, and he hasn't fought the level of skilled opponents 616 Natasha has either. And Bucky trained her..

Just seems like she's faster.

And more skilled.

I'm almost certain Bucky is faster then his MCU opponents, but that's where the advantages (or at least clear ones) begin and end with what you've posted.

At this point it's looking like I'm going to have write entire essays to describe what 616 street levelers are capable of, because you're not really grasping how little h2h skill MCU characters have demonstrated for the most part. MCU Bucky and Steve comes into play when they fight each other and characters that can physically compete with them. They don't have Bucky's showings against characters physically well above them all around, but still retaining a respectable amount of h2h skill in their own right.

No one here is struggling to hit a human sized target. I'm not sure it's relevant that he can hit a fly while MCU Bucky can only hit a hummingbird when both are capable of oneshotting the other with a shot at something far bigger then either (i.e headshots). That's not accounting for the fact that everyone here can react to the projectiles used, which kind of negates the superior accuracy anyway.

Really now? Bucky's ability to outreact bullets from marksmen both skilled and fodder is playing nothing into this matchup? His ability to shoot out Wolverine's vitals in mid lunge in such a way that momentarily puts him down as opposed to him just plowing through them as per usual is completely irrelevant? Because MCU Bucky himself has never missed a shot against Steve, and the shots he has landed have failed to be killing ones. Because the only time he's ever actually killed someone with a gun were nameless fodder, as opposed to in combat against superhuman combatants and top tier martial artists. The only human-sized target worth his weight Bucky has ever shot at has managed to evade his shots, so why can't 616 Bucky who is Steve's clear superior in skill and speed perform better? And on the same token, it's ridiculous to assume a bullet-timer can't ever be shot by a skilled enough marksman as is disproved by people like Punisher and 616 Bucky himself.

Don't talk as if Bucky's superior accuracy is irrelevant. That's a very lazy argument for characters that don't have showings to compare.

Why doesn't he use this ability in every fight? Is there any limiter on it or is it just not in character for him to spam it?

He doesn't spam because he usually doesn't need to, and I'm not arguing he'll spam it here. It's an ability he can fall back on if need be, and something he has used when necessary.

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#48 Posted by buildhare (8709 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks:

At this point it's looking like I'm going to have write entire essays

Right, I'll just do the reading and get back to you and brucerogers.