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#1 Posted by Aressword (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

10,000 spartans; Lead by Leonidas.

10,000 Romans; Lead by General Maximus Decimus Meridius.

10,000 Samurai; Lead by Captain Nathan Algren and Lord Moritsugu Katsumoto.

10,000 Britons; Lead by King Arthur.

10,000 Scottish Highlander soldiers; Lead by William Wallace.

vs

The Orc army at the battle of Minas Tirith; lead by Gothmog (Lieutenant of Morgul)

Rules

  1. No Nazgul.
  2. No big elephants.
  3. Defenders must hold out for 3 days.
  4. No reinforcements for the orcs
  5. In character
  6. No in fighting
  7. All the leaders settle on just defending; no outside charges or anything like that.
  8. All weapons have been upgraded to steel; this does not mean that they will weight any less or more, also this does not change the look or the way their weapons will and would work.
  9. The team has 1 hour of prep to ready themselves for combat as they see the orcish horde coming.
  10. They have basic seige equipment like the ones used n the movies.
  11. Standard movie version for all. You can use multiple movies for that character and its army.
  12. Grandalf is no on their side its strictly the citizens in the movie and the troops shown up top.
  13. orcs win when they have killed every last one of them.
  14. Everyone on team 1 knows the environment like the troops do in the movie.
  15. Each leader will give their grand speech to their men before the battle; note this does not mean that the troops can not be mixed in to produce maximum effect during the battle.

Environment.

Some music to get them all rallied

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#3 Posted by OrdinaryAlan (6706 posts) - - Show Bio

Unless I'm missing something, Leonidas and the Spartans should be able to solo. Adding the other 4 armies is overkill, IMO.

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#4 Edited by Outside_85 (23487 posts) - - Show Bio

135.000 orcs vs 50.000 men holed up in Minas Tirith... to be honest, I'll still go with the Orcs, because they came prepared to lay siege to Minas Tirith. Add to this, they have trolls and a sodding big battering ram.

Also the great tragedy of sieges, if Gothmog or the far off Witch King was willing to. The Orcs could just make camp outside and wait till the defenders starved to death. Also, with the unhygenic orcs, they could just throw their corpses into the city and hope a plague would break out.

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#5 Edited by Wut (6892 posts) - - Show Bio

@aressword:

Questions:

Are the Spartans real Spartans or those 300 ones? I mean real Spartans in that they wore armor and not leather speedos and used proper swords that didn't look like they would shatter the first time they hit something? They also properly used their formations?

Are the Samurai going to fight like historical Samurai? As in, Katanas are mere sidearms not really expected to be used while Yumi and Yari are their primary weapons of choice?

Do the Orcs have to siege or can they starve them out?

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#6 Edited by Killerwasp (17168 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: He said movie versions so, lol XD.

@outside_85: One question how are they suppose to starve out when the humans have to hold for three days only in order to win? did you even read the rules? lol No nazgul lol.

also in total for the orc side was this or at least to from what i've read. ( not counting book version )

200,000 orcs, 20,000 Easterlings, 2000 Variags from Khand, all nine Nazgûl, 4 great beasts, and numerous Trolls and Wargs. Later reinforced by 20 Mûmakil+1000 Haradrim soldiers.

Btw my answer idk this is very hard i wanna say humans win and stuff, but at the same time orcs have a very big and powerful force.

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#7 Posted by ComicsrulebutDBZdoes2 (7566 posts) - - Show Bio

I swear in king athur him and his Knights basically soloed a 10,000 strong army with only like 500 back up

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#8 Posted by Outside_85 (23487 posts) - - Show Bio

@killerwasp: I did read the rules. After I wrote that part, left it in to showcase the usual tactic commanders used when faced with a fortress too costly to attack. :)

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#9 Posted by Killerwasp (17168 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: XD lol u sir u sir XD just expect ares to prolly rage out on u for that i honestly found that funny lol. Problem is though no tactics can be used really if its only a 3 day siege until GG

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#10 Posted by Wut (6892 posts) - - Show Bio

@killerwasp: I just saw the three days thing.

I always ask that because I like to let people know how much I despise the Spartans from 300.

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#11 Posted by Wolfrazer (15877 posts) - - Show Bio

Mel Gibson solos. :P

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#12 Posted by Outside_85 (23487 posts) - - Show Bio

@killerwasp: That is true, and if properly managed, the defenders could be stuck inside for months hoping a relief force would show up. I get why the Witch King ordered a full assault, he knew MT was not at peak strength thanks to Denethor. And despite it being his army being spent, it's not an all or nothing gamble for Sauron to loose huge chuncks of it.

That said, I am still going with the orcs, mainly due to none of the commanders from above with the exception of Arthur have any idea how to defend a castle. Sparta had no walls, Maximus and Wallace was always on the offense, though I admit I dont know about Cruise's character.

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#13 Posted by Wut (6892 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: He wouldn't know very well either. He is an American officer post-civil war.

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#14 Edited by Wolfrazer (15877 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut said:

@outside_85: He wouldn't know very well either. He is an American officer post-civil war.

He was pretty good at tactics though, facing a superior army that had numbers and greater weaponry. Rigging up traps and such.

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#15 Edited by Wut (6892 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: Yea, but his opponents displayed a level of incompetence on their own as well.

Outside wasn't asking about their tactical knowledge so much as their knowledge in defending in a castle during a siege which the guy from Last Samurai wouldn't have as castles have long become obsolete. (Granted, I don't think it takes a genius to defend a castle.... Especially one like Minas Tirith. I suppose the hardest thing to do would be to not stretch yourself too thin or know when to reinforce and when to abandon a wall.)

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#16 Posted by Wolfrazer (15877 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Yeah, still the armies do have some tacticians to come up with something at the very least... OP shoulda prob added some more castle people. Like da Knights Templar....wait they would solo.

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#17 Edited by Wut (6892 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: Yea, I do not believe they can't figure anything out. The Romans will be massively helpful in this as just because Maximus has not first hand account doesn't mean he wouldn't understand siege warfare. The Romans were pretty good at it. I also believe he brings the most to the table. He brings siege engineers (his army had Onagers and Scorpios) which means they will have someone to man and operate the Trebuchets (The mechanics of the two aren't so far apart that they wouldn't know how to operate it), they also bring archers and disciplined infantry who have the perfect weapons for fighting in the streets or walls... They do have cavalry although their use here is extremely questionable.

They are the best army for this scenario as they are all rounders who lack nothing.

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#18 Edited by Killerwasp (17168 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: I found them entertaining honestly lol. Also they didn't really show that, it was actual history at least recorded that the samurai did kill a TON of imperial troops while only having 500 i think it was recorded that they killed 10,000 imperial troops out of 30,000, and the orcs in lotr's were kinda retarded lol. They had their moments, but the avg orc was not that good of a fighter especially with these kind of fighters whom honestly love to fight lol.

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#19 Posted by mjolnirson (2239 posts) - - Show Bio

Leonidas solos ok not, but i am pretty sure that Spartans solos

and even more because that speech and the massive haud.

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#20 Posted by Killerwasp (17168 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by Aressword (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: It is movie version. What would be your intake on both topics though. If we went with both the real version; same numbers in all, and then the movie version; same numbers in all.

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#22 Posted by Wut (6892 posts) - - Show Bio

@aressword:

Movie Version: Spartans still won't know how to fight within a siege very well, and Leo seems far too headstrong to be open to suggestions from the Samurai and Romans, so you will probably have some on the walls as well as some in the streets in their 'formation'. Sadly, they don't hold this formation... ever... and prefer to break it and go fight in slow motion because HELL YEA!... Anyways, their curved blades aren't going to be as effective against the orcs as it was against the 'Persians' due to the orcs making heavier usage of heavier armor. That said, a 300 spartan is going to be a way better fighter then the movie orcs and larger and stronger. Their lack of armor still hurts them a lot. (This is not even counting that said orc shortbows were able to pierce Gondorian plate.... somehow...)

The movie samurai are also hindered because while some use yari and yumi, the vast majority used their swords which... doesn't do them any favors here. Katana's aren't meant for continued, prolonged use in a battle (also why they carried more then one), and during a siege with lots of close combat fighting against Orcs with chainmail, the Katana is not going to preform as well as many people think they would. The Samurai do have armor that is good against arrows and slicing weapons, so they should do fine, but they won't be as effective.

The Romans are the all-stars here as I mentioned before. They have good armor, formations, and weaponry for holding streets and even wall-fighting. They bring a good amount of archers and siege engineers for the trebuchets on the wall. If they do not make Maximus the overall commander then they are probably in trouble because he has the best troops in terms of being suited to a siege, and being a Roman General is, no doubt, at least familiar with siege warfare on a city like Minas Tirith (Tall, stone walls and tight streets).

Britions and Highlanders are meh. They are good light infantry and would do better on the walls or acting support for the other three. They are more akin to being warm bodies to fill the ranks and hold the walls then anything else.

Since they only need to hold for three days in a city with ... 6 or 7 walls, I can't remember, with tight streets then they should be able to do it.

Real Life Versions of Spartans and Samurai: Spartans wouldn't quite know how to fight within a siege very well. They never had a wall because they were very proud of their warriors and had a 'come at me bro if you think you are hard enough' attitude. However, they are armored and utilize their phalanx formation to a credible degree which is going to be very, very, very, very effective in the tight streets of Minas Tirith as well as very effective against Trolls. (Spears > Swords against a large creature). They have short stabbing sword which is far more effective then the mutated scimitar they use in 300 when going against... almost any form of armor, and the orcs did like to use chainmail with metal plates here and there. (Leo is not nearly as 'great' as the movie version made him out to be.)

Real Life Samurai would be better as they will prefer to use bows and spears compared to the katana loving ones we see in the Last Samurai. Katanas were akin to our pistols we give to our soldiers, it is a sidearm and not meant to be the primary weapon because it isn't as effective. The fact that the Samurai will be using Yumi is a massive boost as the one thing team 1 is lacking is in the archer department. The Scottish Highlanders in Braveheart was light infantry, I cannot recall them using bows. The britons (been awhile since I have seen that movie) also didn't make good use of the bow and were also light infantry. The only ones who really bring archers here are the Romans (using hte movie version), so having more archers would be a massive boost.

Real life will preform better because they are better armored (in the case of the spartans) and use their formations to a much better degree.

Most of the archers are going to be from the Samurai(Maybe 3kish) and maybe 2 - 2.5k Roman archers. I will toss in 1k briton archers just to be safe. So, being optimistic, that is 6k archers with 44k infantry... not what I would call optimum when guarding a city, but better then nothing.

I would place the Britons, Highlanders, and sprinkle Samurai among them on the walls (The Samurais being great 'all rounders'). The britons and Highlanders are lightly armored and more 'brawlers' then soldiers. Fighting on a wall would encourage them as well as help with their lesser armor and suit their fighting preferences. The Samurai would be there for added skill and heavy infantry to help hold.

The Romans and Spartans would have the streets. Roman Pilums would be very deadly when thrown into a narrow street as they are, pretty much, guaranteed to hit something. Both Romans and Spartans have amazing formations for fighting in tight, narrow areas when flanking and rear attacks are not a thing. I would also sprinkle Samurai units in the streets as well as they were very adept as using their Yari spears in tight formations.

The only way they are failing is if the Trolls can break through, but given their numbers, I highly doubt they will be able to push through every wall and street when they are packed with the tight formations of Romans and Spartans in three days. Team 1 should win.

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#23 Edited by Chazz85 (5201 posts) - - Show Bio

yeah the orcs would get raped. The spartans alone are enough. Then we add the tactical genius of the romans. Then the samurai and king arthurs men plus scotland. They stomp.

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#24 Posted by Killerwasp (17168 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: "That said, a 300 spartan is going to be a way better fighter then the movie orcs and larger and stronger. " <-- im confused, are you saying the phalanx formation of 300 or are u saying there are 300 in total for spartans?

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#25 Posted by Wut (6892 posts) - - Show Bio

@killerwasp: No, I am saying 300 spartan to make it clear I am referring to movie spartans.

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#26 Posted by juiceboks (24416 posts) - - Show Bio

What the hell are they supposed to do against the trolls?

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#27 Posted by Wut (6892 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: I would assume they would stab it. Trolls are not invincible and have been brought down by arrows. It would not be unlikely to assume spears could do the same.

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#28 Posted by Killerwasp (17168 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: wait im sorry im having a problem grasping this. You were using the 300 Spartans as the reference right to the 300 movie? correct?XD

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#29 Posted by Wut (6892 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Edited by juiceboks (24416 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut said:

@juiceboks: I would assume they would stab it. Trolls are not invincible and have been brought down by arrows. It would not be unlikely to assume spears could do the same.

Obviously they're not invincible but they're walking meat shields that can tank an obscene amount of damage. Obviously enough arrows will do it eventually but the armies also have to worry about the Orcs in close range and wouldn't be able to afford to focus solely on the trolls which is a task in it of itself. We've seen how much trouble one troll was to the Fellowship, and that one needed to be downed by an accurate shot by Legolas. Trolls cleaving through 6 or 7 people at once with each swing backed by an army is a fairly large factor in this scenario.

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#31 Posted by Wut (6892 posts) - - Show Bio

@juiceboks: It is a major factor, and I added that as the only way I see the Orcs taking the city is trolls breaking through the formations, but again, there are many heavy spear users here, long spears. (Honestly, them swinging is going to be worse against the closely formed phalanx), but Gandalf took one down with a single throat cut implying lethal blows are still enough which spears can do. Spears are one of the best ways to take down creatures like Trolls. (Romans are going to have a lot of trouble with trolls).

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#32 Edited by bigcimmerian (10340 posts) - - Show Bio

Spartans solo, they will slice orcs into pieces with ease, then the rest of Orc army will panic and they will run.

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#33 Posted by Killerwasp (17168 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: okay cause i thought u meant like 300 as in total of 300 i was like uh dude theres 10k lol. XD

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#34 Posted by Aressword (1763 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Alright then.

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#35 Posted by rogueshadow (28847 posts) - - Show Bio

They can last the three days with ease, what's more interesting is could they win outright. I'm only familiar with the Spartans, Romans and Scots, but I think this would be an interesting fight, there were around 240,000 foot soldiers of Orcs, Easterlings etc, throw in the unknown number of Olog Hai, Wargs and Fell beasts and there are some serious issues for the 5 armies. I think they can probably take it, the Spartans will be the best to deal with Olog Hai, we've seen what just 300 can do, but they are going to suffer immense casualties.

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#36 Posted by Killerwasp (17168 posts) - - Show Bio

@rogueshadow: That'd be epic to have these 5 armies face those orcs on the field. XD

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#37 Edited by Mikey_EZ (8 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by Killerwasp (17168 posts) - - Show Bio

@mikey_ez: wow this is an old bump and yes theres trolls i guess, and no they wouldn't lose theres 10,000 of each person spartans alone were better warriors then gondor soldiers for movie versions.

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#39 Posted by Mikey_EZ (8 posts) - - Show Bio

@killerwasp: I don't think they could win at all and the nazguls are the reason why they struggle. And gothmog wouldn't be leading, it would be the Serpent King from Harad who got killed by theoden. What I remember that in the movie, there was only 2300 gondor soldiers against 200000 Orcs and Uruks, over 100,000 haradrium and Easterlings(not combined), I think there were 30 attack trolls and Black Nemunorians against Gondor. Spartans have to face waves of 10000 everyday but Gondor has to fight for days. I don't think Spartans are any close to a Gondorian nor would they win this battle.

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#40 Posted by Pierpat (5761 posts) - - Show Bio

Still don't get it, did OP actually state movie versions or are we assuming it?
movie versions for once may be worse than real life ones.

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#41 Edited by Killerwasp (17168 posts) - - Show Bio

@mikey_ez: Read the rules, Nazgul are not in the fight, and the armies are being led by Gothmog, thats the op don't change it.

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#42 Edited by Fallschirmjager (23431 posts) - - Show Bio

Standard military doctrine states that an assaulting force needs to be 10x the defending force if the defending force is in a fortified position.

250,000 orcs/allies vs 50,000 allied army is only 5 to 1. Add on to the fact that the allied army has several fantastic leaders and some very elite troops and holding out for 3 days is NP imo.

feeding that many people in Minas Tirath is probably a bigger problem than defending it.

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#43 Posted by soaringturkeys (2553 posts) - - Show Bio

These guys are all foot soldiers and the only ones that will come prepared with any mid range weapons would be King Arthur or The Samurais.

They get their asses owned being mowed down by arrows and outmanoeuvred by calvary.

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#44 Posted by Killerwasp (17168 posts) - - Show Bio

@soaringturkeys: You do realize this is a fight in the castle right? Where is calvary coming in? Did you even bother to read the rules before claiming its a stomp?

  1. They have basic seige equipment like the ones used in the movies.

Btw Romans had more siege than either one so... and archers..... so...........

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#45 Posted by Killerwasp (17168 posts) - - Show Bio

@pierpat: Me and wut asked the op and he said both versions = movie and real versions so, wut gave him two answers on that and stuff.

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#46 Posted by SaitamaBro (139 posts) - - Show Bio

Seriously, Wallace solos. Didn't you guys watch the movie? He can shoot fireballs from his eyes, and lighting bolts from his arse.

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#47 Posted by Mikey_EZ (8 posts) - - Show Bio

@killerwasp: I did read the rules. I know no nazgul, you misread my comment. I said that they are more mordor forces than there are in the book. PJ even stated this. In the book, there is only 45,000 forces from Mordor, but PJ added crazy number in the movie like I said i nthe previous comment. Yes, there were black numerions and Haradrium cavalry. You could barely see them when they broke the gates of Minas tirith. Seeing an Eastering that scene is not hard but seeing a black numereon and haradrium cavalry charging in was hard due to time. And there were only 2,300 Gondorians defending in the movie while from Mordor excluding the Mumikil was over 200,000 in a single siege of Minas Tirith. PJ even stated that. If you wanted 300 to win, you might as well get rid of Uruks, Easterlings, Haradrium, Variags, Black Numereons, trolls such as Olog-Hai cuz with them was beyond overkill in the movie even through that 2,300 soldiers manage to hold out the whole day. And you do realize that these orcs are not just regular orcs right? These are Morgul, Morannon, and Barad-dur orcs, not those weak like close to goblin orcs. There was a difference. One is size. Two is strength. Three is culture like for example, gundabad and morannon orcs are a warrior society type of orcs, nothing except Uruks(Isengard Uruk-hai and Black Uruks) are stronger or could top over them in fighting abilities. I mean, look what they did to the dwarves, the best infantry fighting force in all of middle earth(Yes, they are. Don't argue that.)

And I don't think I want to repeat myself that Easterlings are the most elite troops of Sauron's armies. Even every nation have problems with them. I know this isn't in the movie but the movie made a book. Easterlings have a cavalry force(Kataphrakts) that horses are melee resistant but that will be taken care of by archers.

Yep, Mordor wins. You forget to remove more stuff from Mordor. Even with no Nazgul, there are still more generals like the Serpent King of Harad(Not that Mumikil guy), Olog-Hai chieftein, two more Orc/Uruk generals, Variag Lord, and a Easterling Emperor. Yes they're in the movie. PJ cut them all out except for the two orc/uruk generals and the Olog-Hai chieftein just like he cut out pretty much half of Helms Deep battle and he did the same thing with the black gate and minas tirith. You think PJ will just make the movie just for a battle? That will take more time and he probably will have to make another movie displaying the black gates and Mount Doom. He never have a over 3 hour movie.

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#48 Edited by King_Ashnard (28 posts) - - Show Bio

@mikey_ez: the heck? This isn't better than my 300 vs Daein army...

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#49 Posted by Mikey_EZ (8 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_ashnard: Yes it was... That thread was even worse and a disappointing lost for the Spartans plus persian and greek allies. Doesn't matter how many more number you give the spartans and persians, they still lost. You took it out of a Fire Emblem fanfic and it just display a nation powerhouse that annihilated around 6 million soldiers of Begnion Empire in one battle with just 2,000 men led by the character you're impersonating and less than thousand died? The author never stated that yet. And I played the game too and yes, there was little info except that nation was the best morale military in the whole game, I'll agree with that but you got to give more thought into it before you display Ashnard and Zelgius in the battle cuz they will solo for a reason. Yes, your thread was overkill... Medieval vs Bronze. Mithril plus steel and iron vs Bronze. Yeah, we knew who won in that thread.

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#50 Posted by King_Ashnard (28 posts) - - Show Bio


Mordor wins.


@mikey_ez said:

@king_ashnard: Yes it was... That thread was even worse and a disappointing lost for the Spartans plus persian and greek allies. Doesn't matter how many more number you give the spartans and persians, they still lost. You took it out of a Fire Emblem fanfic and it just display a nation powerhouse that annihilated around 6 million soldiers of Begnion Empire in one battle with just 2,000 men led by the character you're impersonating and less than thousand died? The author never stated that yet. And I played the game too and yes, there was little info except that nation was the best morale military in the whole game, I'll agree with that but you got to give more thought into it before you display Ashnard and Zelgius in the battle cuz they will solo for a reason. Yes, your thread was overkill... Medieval vs Bronze. Mithril plus steel and iron vs Bronze. Yeah, we knew who won in that thread.

Meh, then looks like we have the answer.