5 Adeptus Custodes vs 20 Ork warbosses

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#1 Posted by FullMetalEmprah (5616 posts) - - Show Bio
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Can five of the most elite troops the Imperium of Man has to offer defeat 20 powerful warbosses?

  • Orks are equipped with what is shown in the pic.
  • Two Custodes have Guardian Spears, two are Sentinels(Praesidium Shield and Sentinel Blade), and one is a Sagittarum Guard with an Adrastus bolt caliver and a Meridian Sword pair for CQC.
  • No armory thralls for the Custodes.
  • The Orks won't bicker and will work together well as a team.
  • Fight takes place on a dusty plane, with 50 meters between them.

Who wins?

Bonus Round: Same conditions as before but this time, the Orks get 100 nobz(no mega armor) to assist their bosses.

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#3 Posted by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on the Warbosses. They range from being able to be beaten by humans to speed-blitzing Space Marines to being more then capable of throwing down with Primarchs.

If they are the first, the Custodes win handily.

If the second, the Warbosses win.

If the third, the Warbosses stomp so badly the Emperor would clench his sphincter if he still had one.

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#4 Posted by decaf_wizard (17256 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut said:

Depends on the Warbosses. They range from being able to be beaten by humans to speed-blitzing Space Marines to being more then capable of throwing down with Primarchs.

If they are the first, the Custodes win handily.

If the second, the Warbosses win.

If the third, the Warbosses stomp so badly the Emperor would clench his sphincter if he still had one.

This basically, if they are anything like Ullanor Warbosses or the Beast's Warbosses..............

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#5 Edited by FullMetalEmprah (5616 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: @decaf_wizard: It's the second one lol, no primarch level bosses in this scenario. Basically they're somewhat successful bosses that have a planet or two but aren't as successful as the bigger and badder ones. The Adrastus caliver goes without saying, but would the Guardian Spears' projectiles be effective against cybork armor of good quality? I'm wanting to say no personally.

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#6 Posted by Conner_Wolf (6380 posts) - - Show Bio

Considering that an army of Custodes were able to battle ten thousand orks while only losing three of their own, yeah, let's go with the Custodes.

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#7 Edited by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@conner_wolf said:

Considering that an army of Custodes were able to battle ten thousand orks while only losing three of their own, yeah, let's go with the Custodes.

It was 100,000 Orks. And that quote is misinterpreted quite a bit.

The Primarchs Horus, Rogal Dorn, and Mortarion and their legions were vastly outnumbered and close to defeat when the Emperor led an attack from his golden battle barge, the Bucephalus. At the head of a thousand Custodians, the Emperor struck at the very heart of the Ork horde, confronting Gharkhul atop a towering Gargant. As the Emperor decapitated the giant, black-skinned ork, the Custodians laid waste to the Warlord’s prime warriors. It is said that within moments over a hundred thousand greenskins died, and the Waaagh! was broken. Legend has it that only three Custodians died at the battle, their names enshrined forever, engraved on the Emperors armour.” – Visions of Darkness, Page 18

^ The quote in question. Which needs to be examined more:

It wasn't just a thousand Custodians. It was also the Emperor, himself, who jumped into the middle of the Orks and then smote the Warboss on his Gargant. That is a big deal.

Then, we look here:

the Custodians laid waste to the Warlord’s prime warriors. It is said that within moments over a hundred thousand greenskins died, and the Waaagh! was broken.

This is different sentences. It is not, "The Custodians laid waste to the Warlord's prime warriors, [may substitute the comma for an 'And'] it is said that within moments over a hundred thousand greenskins died, and the WAAAGH! was broken." If it was joined by a comma or conjunction it would all be a connected thought, and so, would be correct in assuming as such. However, this is not so, they are two different sentences and there are more then a few things to make the idea that the 1,000 Custodians did all of it dubious:

Looking at the quote in question besides the above:

It is said <--- Very massive phrase, means its legend or myth, hearsay, not factual.

Legend has it<--- Further compounds the dubious nature of the quote in question.

Then we have to remember that it wasn't just the Emprah and his golden boys, there were multiple legions, including three primarchs, fighting on the battlefield. What most likely happened is the Emperor killed the Warboss with the Custodians wrecking havoc which caused the Orks to break from the loss of their Warboss and confusion and led to a massive amount of them dying in the panic against the Emperor, Custodians, Primarchs and Space Marine Legions [as well as the Imperial Army that was likely there but not mentioned because no one cares about those guys].

Then when we turn and look at more clear cut depictions of Custodes:

First Heretic - Custodes were getting around 1:3 kill ratios against Word Bearers. Some got better.

Outcast Dead - A fully armored and armed Custodes with a bum leg [because of it he was the prison guard] gets killed in hand to hand by a World Eater Sergeant who was unarmored and with his barehands [Sergeant gets wrecked by a Proto-Thunder Warrior later] and in another part two nameless World Eaters fight a fully ready to go Custodes and all three kill each other.

Inferno - Custodes got a 1:5 kill ratio against the Thousand Sons. However, that is, very likely, due to the presence of the Sisters of Silence as in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, Sorcerers didn't have issues taking down Custodes. [And in the FW book, they inflated the numbers of the Thousand Sons and had a lower Psyker rate, I imagine, because its a Space Wolf, Thousand Son, Sisters of Silence and Custodes codex and the fact that despite being outnumbered, caught flatfooted, their kryptonite used against them and being heavily outgunned, they might have won [they were turning the tide] if it wasn't for the god of trickery pulling the rug out from under them wouldn't have made the other three factions look as awesome].

So, to sum it up, Custodes are good. Very good. Far better then a comparable Space Marine, but they aren't 100,000 kills, 3 deaths good.

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#8 Posted by Conner_Wolf (6380 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Unless you wanna say the Custodes were hiding behind Big E and the Legions and refusing to get directly involved-which doesn't sound like them at all-then I'd be willing to give it far more credibility than you are.

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#9 Edited by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@conner_wolf: Not what I said. At all. .

What most likely happened is the Emperor killed the Warboss with the Custodians wrecking havoc which caused the Orks to break from the loss of their Warboss and confusion and led to a massive amount of them dying in the panic against the Emperor, Custodians, Primarchs and Space Marine Legions [as well as the Imperial Army that was likely there but not mentioned because no one cares about those guys].

^ What I said. I said the Custodians likely fought and did very well, they are very good, however, to even attempt to give such a dubious quote weight when it goes out of the way to stretch just how much it is hearsay and a legend over direct feats and what we have seen from them, directly, is beyond nonsensical, and more so, ignores how the English Language works in regards to sentence structure.

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#10 Posted by Conner_Wolf (6380 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Never said it was, but you seemed to be implying that the feat meant nothing. Your stance requires jumping through a lot more hoops than just taking the feat at face-value. Yes the others were present, but when you've got-as you pointed out-100,000 Orks and almost no casualties, even if you've got equal numbers, that's amazing.

You're also trying to nitpick english sentence structure in a way no writer actually cares about.

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#11 Posted by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@conner_wolf: My stance is logical. I am:

1. Taking what we have, directly, seen from the Custodes on multiple occasions to develop a baseline for their abilities, which, crazy, is what you are meant to do especially in a verse as varied as 40k.

2. Reading the quote as it is written.

3. Noting the two instances they use to stress this is hearsay and a legend making it dubious no matter how you wish to take it.

No, that is why writers have editors who make sure their thoughts and ideas come across to the reader. If you have a direct quote from the author saying, 'Oh, I meant it like X', then, by all means, produce it. Until then, you read the paragraph like your are meant to read anything [Unless we are going to create a brand new language in an attempt to weigh feats based on what you think they should mean compared to how it is written... Yeah, and I'm the one jumping through loops here].

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#12 Posted by Conner_Wolf (6380 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Writers are not that meticulous. They write things in whatever manner sounds the best and don't always portray things correctly, I'm not saying that is what happened here, I'm saying you're going over this with a fine-toothed comb when that's not required.

As for what we've seen elsewhere from the custodes, much of that can also be chalked up to the fact that Astartes are simply far superior to any Orks the Custodes may have been fighting at the time. Hell one Astartes can rip through legions of Orks, and a small band of them can take on immense numbers with zero casualties. (See: Helsreach for Grimaldus and his Black Templars accomplishing just that). Orks are mostly fodder, they exist to be a faceless vessel for murder without mercy and most of the time even humans can kill Orks fairly easily. The Guard can fend off Orks all on its own, it's not like they're anything special.

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#13 Posted by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@conner_wolf: Again, see the purpose of editors. We read quotes and novels as they are written, it isn't a fine comb, it is understanding how to read and not looking for something that isn't there to justify something that isn't there.

These aren't Orks, these are Ork warbosses. I've already mentioned how much they vary and Metal wants the medium ones, the ones who can blitz named space marines (such as Blackmane) and current Thraka who is on the border. The strongest of warbosses are on par, or greater then, primarchs (The Beast and the warbosses of Ullanor).

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#14 Edited by FullMetalEmprah (5616 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Honestly, after Master of Mankind, them slaughtering Orks in that manner even with a boss leading them isn't unlikely. I mean, Ra Endymion(at least I think it was Ra) stomped traitor marines so badly Zephon grew enraged and gathered treasonous thoughts. He even likened it to how an Astartes would kill a human and thought that was the reason they were created(funny enough, he ended up being partly correct in that). Not that it changes the battle any since these bosses are that far above marines as well, just saying.

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#15 Edited by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@fullmetalemprah: Certainly is unlikely. To achieve that, if we are taking the in-universe myth as fact, means each custodes had to kill 100 Orks each in a matter of moments, that is far beyond anything they have ever displayed.

You mean this one?

The Archimandrite paid special heed to the Custodians. It was increasingly evident that the Legio Custodes was no unified army. Its warriors fought without formation or Legion-scale order, even at the squad level. Each one was an individual among other individuals, trailed by his own artificers and arsenal thralls, the latter of whom reloaded the Custodians’ guardian spears each time a warrior called out.

Their ranks seemed informal, like gestures of respect towards veterans and gifted individuals rather than a command structure to be rigidly adhered to. Few of them, even Tribune Endymion or those who shared Diocletian Coros’ rank of prefect, ever gave orders.

They simply immersed themselves wherever the fighting was thickest, slaughtering in silence.

And yet, there was unity. Unity of purpose, if nothing else. Despite the lack of order and the length of their spinning blades, they never burdened one another or blighted the paths of the other warriors around them. Consummate reflexes far in advance of a legionary’s own genhanced grace gave them a talent that required years for human soldiers, even Space Marines, to learn through repetitive discipline. Yet the Ten Thousand were masters of it. The Archimandrite watched them whirling and killing, their energised blades passing within a hand’s breadth of another golden warrior, yet never once threatening the other Custodian’s life. Each one of them existed within his own sphere, a warlord unto himself.

Nor was that all. The Archimandrite’s observation revealed an inherent defensiveness in the initial blows of each duel. At first this seeming passivity during the first seconds of engagement made little sense, but further analysis showed the truth. Each Custodian spent those precious moments studying his foe, adjusting his fighting style to compensate, then delivering a killing blow. They could simply overpower their enemies immediately with superior strength, speed and armament. Instead, they learned from each and every fight.

Ra Endymion exemplified this. He would parry twice or thrice, whether it was sword, axe, fang or claw, following his enemy’s movements with brief flickers of attention, then lashing back to impale, to cleave, to sever. According to the Archimandrite’s datastreams, no legionary had yet lasted more than three blows against his advance.

Bodyguards, the Archimandrite mused. Praetorians. This was their purpose, after all. Not to win wars, but to know their master’s enemies and destroy them before they could do Him harm. How many thousands of hours of pict-footage did the Ten Thousand study from each conquered or compliant world? Their lives surely consisted of an eternity of preparatory devotion, studying enemy after enemy in case they ever faced them in battle, atop the physicality of their standard training.

Their preternatural reactions allowed them to block bolts and lasfire alike, deflecting it from their spinning spears, but they could still be killed. The Archimandrite had witnessed that itself. They could be overwhelmed by foes and dragged down, or gunned down while already engaged. - The Master of Mankind

Ra is a special case [As he was the Custodian entrusted to carry Drach'nyen and was a Tribune] among the Custodes, but average, no-name Custodes seem to be about as good as 3-5 Space Marines [same quote even acknowledges they tend to die when outnumbered or shot while fighting as they are duelist and master fighters, but individuals]. After all, Valoris was able to contend against Dorn [IIRC] fairly well but that is like Logan 'I can strike down a Grey Knight before his fellows even knew what just happened' Grimnar is to a random Space Wolf.

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#16 Edited by FullMetalEmprah (5616 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: True, I think the time it took to accomplish the feat is where the legend comes into play personally, I'm not accepting the myth as fact. I think the feat is achievable just not in that time frame. What likely took them hours was condensed to a matter of moments and thus the myth was born. I merely meant that they were skilled enough to accomplish the feat, albeit with more than three casualties. After all, MoM also dismissed the idea Astartes were better as a cohesive unit, it's just that the Custodes fight in a way that allows them to support each other while fighting individually. So they most definitely would have done well in such a scenario.

Not that one, it's the part where Zephon was watching them tear through traitor marines in the webway through a holopict or something like that. And yeah Ra might not have been the best example, but honestly neither were the Thousand Sons, Custodes were able to take on several of the Sekhmet at once, who are far above normal marines(even with sorcery aside they were extremely skilled) and they had terminator armor.

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#17 Edited by decaf_wizard (17256 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Its also worth noting that there are only ever two Tribunes of the Custodes, the leaders of a Tribunate, because ya know Roman inspiration and all. Custodes of that title would be far above rank and file to the point where it would be like comparing Ahriman to an average Thousand Son Sorcerer

How do you think like five shield captains would do here, as opposed to rank and file?

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#18 Edited by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@fullmetalemprah:I don't think so. I think the battle, likely, was the Emperor killing the warboss and the sudden shock of the Custodes appearing in their midst, the death of the warboss, caused them to rout and, as they routed, the Custodes, Emperor, Primarchs and multiple legions cut them down which is why so many died in a short period of time.

They aren't as good. That isn't an opinion, that is fact. They aren't fighting as a single unit, but instead, just a bunch of single people that are good enough to not get in the other's way, that is still vastly different then fighting as a cohesive unit where the man on your right and left supports you and covers you when you leave yourself open and there is a reason that fighting in formations like that are what ruled the battlefield not singular skill no matter the level of skill because they are bodyguards and only ever deployed in small units so never need to fight as a large cohesive unit. What he said was they are good enough that it isn't such a great weakness, but it isn't a strength compounded by the fact he mentions they can be overwhelmed and shot while fighting which is something fighting in a formation protects you from.

Terminator armor doesn't do much against power weapons and terminator armor slows, the main advantages with it is increased strength and durability, however, if fighting in a duel against someone with a power weapon, you're better off in just power armor for the greater mobility. Thousand sons are a good example because we see sorcerers fighting Custodes and they were winning [until the SoS showed up], More powerful psykers, like T'Kar was tearing through the Custodes and could have killed Valdor, himself, but he saw his reflection and let himself be killed.

@decaf_wizard: I think Shield-Captains with the sword/board configuration might be able to. As long as these were not 'on the border' warbosses like Thraka.

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#19 Posted by Conner_Wolf (6380 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Since when was the average warboss able to blitz marines?

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#20 Posted by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@conner_wolf: I just pointed out times they had. Blackmane, a space marine with one of the microsecond reaction feats to his name, was nearly speedblitzed by a Warboss, pre-current [post 2nd War] Thraka stomped Belial [Who, outside of maybe Azrael, is the best Dark Angel duelist, and so one of the best space marine duelist, period] into the ground and nearly tore him, quite literally, in two after a very brief fight.

Because Orks don't just get bigger. Their stats, across the board, increase. They get stronger, tougher, larger and faster.

And if you want more examples:

Chapter Master [Kantor], a Captain and part of a squad of Crimson Fist fighting a sub-Warboss

‘Let’s have you, wretch!’ he hissed, drawing a last howl of threat from the beast before it lunged straight at him with its blood-splashed power claw.

Despite the creature’s speed, the blow was telegraphed, the ork taking a fraction of a second to shift its weight forward into the lunge. It was enough. Kantor slid aside just as the claw slashed towards his abdominal plates. He struck at the extended arm with his power fist. Had he connected properly, he might well have sheared straight through the arm, but the ork was blisteringly fast. It did not leave its arm extended long after the blow, but recoiled it as quickly as a striking snake recoils its head.

Kantor’s fist passed through thin air, putting him ever so slightly off-balance for an instant. That was when the ork whipped its battered twin stubbers at him. There was no evading the blow. Instead, Kantor raised his left arm, couched his head against his inner forearm, and tried to absorb the impact.

The force was stunning, slamming into him and hurling him from his feet despite his best efforts to resist. He landed hard on his right side and slid six metres across the floor.

He cursed as he pushed himself up and tried to shake off a momentary dizziness.

He saw Sergeant Daecor, Brother Verna and Brother Bacar try to surround the beast, Daecor taunting it from the front while the other two each took a flank. It looked like it was working. The monster hurled itself at Daecor, its massive claw hammering into the marble flooring as the sergeant leapt backwards. Verna and Bacar moved the instant the blow missed their new squad leader. Verna thrust his combat blade into the workings of the left leg and yanked back hard, ripping cables from their housings and spraying himself with oil and hydraulic fluids. Bacar tried to lever his knife up underneath the monster’s armpit where mobility demanded there be a gap in its armour.

The monster’s remaining eye was its right one, and it saw Bacar move in its peripheral vision. In a flash, it spun on him, striking his helmeted head with the battered barrels of its twin stubbers. With Bacar momentarily stunned, hands thrown out to stop himself from toppling, the creature torqued the left side of its body and hacked him into three with a great diagonal slash of its power claw.

Bacar’s body, power armour and all, slid into three parts. His head and left arm flopped to the floor. Great gouts of blood geysered upwards from his open torso.

That was when brothers Lician and Anais tried to enter the fray.

‘No!’ bellowed Kantor. ‘Brother Anais, get back in the elevator. Lician, defend him with your life. We cannot lose him!’ The Chapter Master raced towards the beast that had just killed another of his beloved Crimson Fists.

How many more did he have to lose before Urzog Mag Kull would die?

Daecor had Mag Kull’s left flank now, but, as he lunged, the beast turned and clipped his breastplate with a savage backhand blow. The upwards angle of the blow sent the sergeant metres into the air. He crashed down on his back, bolter skittering away from him.

Verna, finding himself behind the beast, threw himself at the back of its piston-powered knees and tried to take it to the floor, but it was hopeless. Even in full Astartes plate, he weighed a fraction of what Mag Kull did.

He managed to confuse the creature for a second, allowing Kantor to launch himself into the air, power fisted right hand held high for a deadly downwards blow.

For a moment, the Chapter Master literally flew, all his prodigious power and strength, all his athletic ability, invested into the attack.

Mag Kull managed to kick Verna away, shattering the armour of the Crimson Fist’s left arm in the process and breaking the bone beneath. It turned in time to see Kantor’s attack, but not quickly enough to avoid it. Instead, it could only try to minimise the damage from the blistering overhand strike.

It rolled its massive metal shoulder in front of its face at the last instant. There was a massive crack, like sharp thunder, as Kantor’s fist struck the beast’s armoured plate, shearing straight through the metal and pulverising the dense bone and muscle beneath. The force of the impact launched the beast backwards and sent Kantor crashing to the ground.

The ork raged. The sparks from its malfunctioning legs ignited the oil leaking from its cables, and fire engulfed its lower body. But it was not finished with the Crimson Fists. Its right arm, the one bearing the useless heavy stubber, now hung from its shoulder by little more than a thin bundle of nerves and sinew. It slapped uselessly against the burning monster’s side as it struggled forwards in Kantor’s direction. Irritated, the beast raised its huge power claw across its body and, with one motion, snipped the useless arm away completely.

The severed arm fell to the ground with a clatter of metal.

Verna lay groaning, fighting to rally himself. Daecor, too, was struggling to get to his feet. Kantor rose, his whole body aching, damned if he was going to let the monster get the better of him. But the creature was unnaturally tough, tougher than any Astartes. It was not just the armour, it was the nature of the ork race. Pain hardly slowed them, fear rarely stopped them in their tracks, they were addicted to war, addicted to slaughter, and they would never stop coming.

On burning metal legs, the creature staggered towards him, gnashing the blades of its only remaining weapon, its deadly power claw, as if they were a second set of jaws.

Kantor loosed a burst of bolt rounds at it, aiming for the beast’s head, but the massive metal gorget of long tusk-like spikes protected the creature’s face. The bolts detonated on the armour without penetrating, though they certainly angered the beast.

Four metres away from him now, it raised its massive claw into the air, and he readied to try to block or slip the blow. His entire awareness was focussed on that gleaming razor-edged weapon, as if it were the only thing in the universe right now. So, at first, he did not understand what happened next. Though his eyes saw it all, he was not sure he could believe it.

A harsh voice barked out, ‘We are not finished, xenos!’

An armoured figure leapt up from behind, throwing itself on the creature’s back, gripping with only its blue, ceramite-plated legs. The figure’s left hand, its only hand, raised a small metal object.

The monster tried to turn to face its new attacker, but, no matter how it tried to twist and turn, the blue figure was always behind it, holding fast to its back by leg power alone.

The beast bellowed in frustration and, the moment its mouth was open as wide as it could surely go, the attacker leaned forward and placed the metal object deep inside the creature’s mouth.

On reflex, the ork swallowed, confused, not realising what had just happened.

It thrashed again and, finally, the blue figure released its grip and was flung backwards, crashing to the ground and skidding away.

The monster turned to pursue, but it only managed two steps. It was about to take a third then the krak grenade detonated inside it. Where its head had poked out of its armoured shell, a fountain of blood and shattered bone erupted. For a second, the armour stayed upright, apparently undamaged by the explosion in the creature’s body. Then, slowly, like a falling ebonwood tree, it tumbled forwards and smashed to the floor.

Kantor realised he was breathing hard and consciously tried to relax his body. He was still not entirely sure what had just happened. Then he heard dry laughter somewhere off to his right. A figure in battered Crimson Fist armour sat up, still chuckling, covered in blood, beaten almost beyond recognition.

Almost, but not quite.

‘Alessio,’ breathed Kantor, numb with relief. ‘Alessio.’

It was Cortez, though he was in a worse state of repair than Kantor could remember seeing him for at least a century.

‘You’re alive! By Dorn, you’re alive!’ - Rynn's World

Fighting the true Warboss:

Now that Snagrod had landed on the plate, he rose to his full height, and the gunship pulled up into the air, hovering there, drifting drunkenly from left to right as the pilots tried to keep it steady.

Kantor’s eyes were on the warlord. Snagrod wore no suit of power armour like other warlords did. His hulking, muscle-bound torso was bare of everything save deep scars and burns, crude stitches and rippling veins as thick as a man’s thumb. This lack of armour was the most overt sign of pure confidence and power Kantor had ever seen in an individual ork.

Kantor knew then that he had never faced a beast like this in mortal combat.

For weaponry, the monster wielded no power claw, but he gripped a single massive heavy-stubber in the fingers of its right hand, box-fed with a cruelly serrated bayonet slung underneath the barrel. There were close combat weapons slung on the creature’s back, too, but Kantor didn’t have a good view of them.

The two enemies glared at each other, frozen for a moment, each silently assessing his foe. From around Snagrod’s thick waist, a collection of Space Marine helmets hung, swinging on short iron chains that rattled from a squiggoth-skin belt. There were four helmets, each coloured differently, each taken from a battle-brother belonging to a different Chapter. One was decorated with the gold laurels of a veteran sergeant.

Inside his armour, Kantor flexed his muscles and felt blood rushing through them, blood and adrenaline. The latter would make him faster, inure him to pain, help him fight fatigue and make his opponent’s movements seem slower than they really were. But how fast could this monster move? Unhindered by tonnes of iron plate, like that worn by Urzog Mag Kull, Snagrod was a different prospect altogether.

The moment broke suddenly, like glass, and it began.

Snagrod raised the barrel of his gun straight at Kantor and pulled hard on the trigger. Kantor raised Dorn’s Arrow and opened fire a fraction of a second later. Shells hammered through the air in both directions… and struck their targets.

Kantor had flicked on the shield of his Iron Halo again, just in time. The ork rounds danced on the energy field, sparking and ricocheting while he fired back.

The bolts from Dorn’s Arrow struck true, but Snagrod suffered no damage at all. He, too, seemed to be shielded by some kind of power-field. It was another reason he didn’t need a hulking mass of metal plate. The storm bolts exploded harmlessly, sending ripples of strange green energy out over the warlord’s body.

They stood there, unleashing the full fury of their weapons at each other, both roaring in hate at rage as they did so. Then, almost simultaneously, their ranged weapons ran dry.

Kantor deactivated the halo’s energy field. His armour’s power levels had dropped dangerously low. They climbed again now, but never quite reached optimum. He knew he couldn’t rely on the halo again. If he came too close to overloading his armour’s generator, his systems would lock out to prevent an atomic explosion.

Ammo spent, Snagrod threw his heavy-stubber aside in disgust and charged.

Damn, but he was fast!

His impossibly muscular legs halved the distance to Kantor in scant seconds.

Kantor loosed a battle cry and raced forwards to meet him, drawing his sword left-handed from the scabbard at his lower back and activating the power fist on his right.

Snagrod drew the close combat weapons from the slings on his broad back as he ran, two huge chainaxes decorated with roughly painted black and white checks. They growled into motion, teeth blurring.

The two enemies clashed hard, right in the middle of the Nolfeas Plate. Kantor slipped a blistering blow and struck at Snagrod’s belly with his blade. Green sparks flew. The monster’s energy shield was still in play. Where did it get its power? It had to come from somewhere, but Kantor’s eyes couldn’t find any sign of a device. It had to be somewhere on Snagrod’s body, but there was no time to search in earnest for it. Another whistling swipe almost took the Chapter Master’s head off. The blade of the left chainaxe missed him by a hair’s breadth.

Kantor tried to stay in close. His reach was far shorter than the ork’s. It wouldn’t help him to pull back. If he stayed here, he stayed within his own striking range, but what good would that do him when the monster was still shielded?

Another swing of the warlord’s axes gave Kantor a brief opening, and his power fist flashed forward, a devastating hook that would have killed just about any living thing. The fist’s power-field snapped like lightning, and Snagrod’s personal shield flashed bright, but the force of the blow was spent on the shield, and the warlord barely even stumbled back a step.

Kantor’s adrenaline surged even higher. He felt like a child battling this thing, powerless to hurt it.

Snagrod kicked out while Kantor was focussed on the swings of the monster’s deadly blades. The kick caught him square in the stomach and launched him ten metres backwards, skidding along the surface of the landing plate.

Kantor grunted. Even through his ceramite plate, the blow had winded him.

Snagrod charged straight in while the Chapter Master was still on his back. The beast lifted both chainaxes at once and put all its formidable might into a vertical killing stroke.

Kantor rolled left, every fibre of his body committed to the motion, and the axes bit deep into the plate, lodging there hard. The motors that drove the weapons’ wicked teeth whined in complaint.

Snagrod roared and yanked at them, while Kantor leapt to his feet and slipped around to the monster’s side. There, at the warlord’s back, attached to the squiggoth-skin belt, was a curious-looking module.

The shield must come from there, thought Kantor.

In the split second before Snagrod pulled his axes free, Kantor’s sword stabbed towards the module, his movement deliberately slowed. Most shields resisted objects travelling at high speeds, but allowed slower intrusions. This was no different. The tip of Kantor’s blade pierced the energy field and skewered the module.

There was a snap of ionised air and the green shield flickered off.

Snagrod felt it immediately. With a roar of rage, he swung and batted Kantor aside with the butt of his right axe.

The blow sent Kantor skidding along the plate once more, his right pauldron almost entirely shattered, chunks of ceramite spinning away from him.

But he had achieved more than he’d hoped. The warlord was vulnerable now, and all Kantor’s fury and lust for vengeance bubbled up, spilling over his self-control like a torrent of boiling lava.

He was on his feet instantly, ignoring all his pain. His conscious mind retreated, giving way to raw, untempered aggression. With a battle cry that rang out across the landing plate, he launched himself at the ork warboss one last time. There was no holding back. His killer instinct took over everything. He would rip the beast apart or die.

Snagrod loosed a roar of his own and stormed forwards to meet him, axes high. The warlord had been undefeated in battle for a thousand years, slaying every last challenger to his rule. No mere human would change that.

They slammed against each other like crashing trucks, ceramite armour against flesh tougher and thicker than old leather. The axes whistled through the air, motors growling greedily again, hungry for meat to rip apart. Snagrod tried to cut Kantor in half with a scissor-like double backhand, but he cut only empty space.

Kantor slipped under in a blur and, at last, had the warlord right where he wanted him. His sword thrust deep into the monster’s side and twisted. Snagrod howled in pain and anger, and tried to knock Kantor away, but the pain robbed the blow of speed and Kantor evaded it, staying inside the creature’s guard. He yanked out his blade. Hot blood poured onto the landing plate. Snagrod swiped again and staggered back, his right leg drenched in slick crimson.

Kantor followed the ork’s movements, pressing his attack. He launched a savage overhand blow with his power fist, aimed straight at the warlord’s head, but the beast rolled with the blow, catching it on his huge shoulder.

The thick deltoid muscle exploded in a grisly spray, revealing the bone and sinew beneath. The impact staggered Snagrod, dropping him to one knee. Kantor leapt at him, kicking him down onto his back and straddling the beast’s huge chest. He raised the power fist again for a killing blow, but Snagrod caught it, fingers wrapping iron tight around the wrist.

Kantor’s reaction was immediate. He brought his left hand up, still gripping his sword, and stabbed down at the monster’s throat.

Snagrod’s left shoulder was almost obliterated, almost useless, but not quite.

Through the pain, the ork managed to bring his ruined arm up just in time. He caught the blade of Kantor’s sword in his right hand, the edge biting deep into his fingers. With a roar of pain, the warlord wrenched the blade from Kantor’s grip. It skittered away across the ground.

Kantor snarled and launched a barrage of punches with his gauntleted left hand instead. There was no deadly power-field over that hand, just hard knuckles encased in armour. It was enough. The fury of his blows was terrible. He rained punch after savage punch on the warlord’s face, smashing the beast’s tusks, tearing deep red gouges in its cheeks and brow, blinding one of its eyes and breaking its massive jaw.

Snagrod scrambled to defend himself, but, from his back, one arm greatly diminished in strength, the other locked in a death grip around the Chapter Master’s power fist, he could do little to resist Kantor’s unrelenting fury.

‘You destroyed our home!’ Kantor yelled as he tore the warlord’s face apart. ‘You killed my brothers. Now you pay!’

The words were wasted on the warlord’s tattered ears, but the meaning was not. Death was close, closer than it had ever come to the greenskin leader before.

With an infuriated roar, Snagrod bridged, thrusting his torso up from the ground with the full power of his thick legs. Kantor was flung off and scrambled back to his feet to continue the attack. Snagrod didn’t wait for that. He rose and ran, his huge feet pounding the plate, straight towards the place where the gunship still hovered. Kantor gave chase, but there was a sudden stutter of autocannon and he had to leap back to avoid being torn apart by the shells.

Snagrod kept running, blood pouring from his wounds in red rivers, splashing a great wet trail onto the landing plate as he went. The gunship dipped towards the edge of the plate just as Snagrod arrived there, and the warlord leapt into the open bay-door in the side of the craft, causing the whole gunship to swing unsteadily for a moment.

Kantor roared in frustration as he watched the ship drift away from the edge on tongues of blue fire. The warlord was going to escape!

-Rynn's World

Ork Warbosses being as fast as elite Space Marines is fairly common for any Ork Warboss worth the name. But they do vary, like everything, and smaller Warbosses of smaller WAAAGHs [usually in IG novels] can be brought down by normal humans and aren't faster then a normal Space Marine [The one Cain defeated not withstanding as Cain has also dueled, and defeated Chaos Space Marines, Dark Eldar, Broodlords....]

Depends on the Warbosses. They range from being able to be beaten by humans to speed-blitzing Space Marines to being more then capable of throwing down with Primarchs.

If they are the first, the Custodes win handily.

If the second, the Warbosses win.

If the third, the Warbosses stomp so badly the Emperor would clench his sphincter if he still had one.

^ As I said in my first post:

Then Metal, the OP, replied with:

It's the second one lol, no primarch level bosses in this scenario. Basically they're somewhat successful bosses that have a planet or two but aren't as successful as the bigger and badder ones. The Adrastus caliver goes without saying, but would the Guardian Spears' projectiles be effective against cybork armor of good quality? I'm wanting to say no personally.

He clearly intended this to be the bigger, stronger Warbosses that are the ones who deserve the name like the ones I mentioned before, not the tiny ones fighting over a single planet that IG face, but the true Warbosses that require heavy armor [such as the one in gunheads where it took a leman russ battle cannon round to the chest and still had the energy to kill the IG general before it was finally killed by the General's retinue of stormtroopers] but not the primarch level ones like Ullanor and the Beast's Prime Orks.

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#21 Edited by FullMetalEmprah (5616 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Actually it's not fact. As of Master of Mankind and Emperor's Legion it turns out that observation of them not working as well as a group compared to Astartes was just a false observation. Custodes do work well as a group, they just do it differently. Despite them fighting individually, they still cover each other's weaknesses in combat. In fact I believe this was an observation of the traitor marines they fought in Master of Mankind(I know it was stated somewhere in that book, can try to find it if needed). It's not inferior to the marines' method of fighting, it just looks wrong to them. I mean a Custode has outright stated one of their jobs is to be natural predators of Astartes, if their style of combat didn't work against Astartes that would be extremely contradictory, not to mention they handled themselves well enough in the webway with it. So honestly after that it's debatable at this point.

Terminator armor may be slow and all that, but they weren't fighting them one on one, they were fighting multiple at once. All of them were accomplished masters with their weapons and were compared to automatons because that's how well they worked together. Yet the Custodes still manhandled them without their sorcery. T'kar's situation is different because he succumbed to the flesh change and was the most powerful telekine in his legion, so it's only natural he'd have no trouble killing them.

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#22 Edited by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@fullmetalemprah: No, they don't, there is a reason Dorn, himself, stripped them of their combat duties and assigned them to just be guards because they were ineffective as a true fighting force on the battlefield. They are great tacticians, but they are not brothers. One of the Custodes even states he has no brothers when they were remarking on how Space Marines can fight so well together because they are, in fact, brothers. But Custodes don't have that kinship with one another. The larger the fight becomes, the less and less effective the Custodes are as a fighting force on their own, because that is how they were designed to be. They are small strike force, bodyguards and assassins, they are not, and never have been, soldiers. I mean, I literally, just pointed out how, in the quote where he notes how they can fight fine on their own, he also remarks how they are brought down by being shot while fighting their mini-duels [which, again, wouldn't happen if they fought like Space Marines] and can be overwhelmed with numbers because the Custodes on their sides won't cover them [like Space Marines do].

No, they were automatons in their own fighting style, and as a group, they were good enough to stay out of the way of each other. They weren't fighting as a unit, they were not supporting one another, they were a dozen single duelist that had their own 'spheres' of control. That falls flat when, like in a true battle, you are facing large numbers or people who don't care about your duel and so will shoot you when you are fighting his comrade which, as the quote said, was the major reasons they fall in battle.

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#23 Edited by FullMetalEmprah (5616 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Them not being involved in a brotherhood of sorts doesn't mean that they can't work together. The Emperor considered the Custodes better in every way, I'm taking his opinion over Dorn's, he even called each one a work of art. Not only that, but if they were truly as bad at being a large fighting force as you claim, then how did they purge the Thunder Warriors and fight the War in the Webway against traitor Astartes? They literally only retreated because of Drach'nyen being insanely powerful and the loyalist Mechanicus forces taking off on them, before that they slaughtered the traitors. They are just literally so confident in each other's abilities to fight individually they only assist when it is needed, whereas Astartes are constantly assisting one another whether they need it or not. Hell in Watchers a Custode reacts on instinct and parries for a Grey Knight. Newer fluff is dispelling the notion they can't work well together and aren't as selfish in combat as they were once made out to be. But if you'd rather agree to disagree I'm fine with that.

The automatons statement was attributed to the Sekhmet, not the Custodes, should have elaborated.

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#24 Posted by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@fullmetalemprah: You means besides the fact they had the Imperial Army's support and the Emperor when they faced the Thunder Warriors? Yeah, I wonder how the Thunder Warriors were purged. You do realize the War in the Webway would count as a smaller battle, right? One where the Custodes could excell in? Because if you took the Custodes and put them up against, say, the Ultramarines in a true battle, the Ultramarines would win. Took the Custodes and put them up against the Space Puppies, the Space Puppies would win.

If the Emperor thought the Custodes were better soldiers, there would be only Custodes, not Space Marines as he would have no need for Space Marines. Custodes are stable and don't seem to age, so there is no reason to have Space Marines if they are truly better soldiers. Yet, they aren't. Can you post examples of them defending each other from deathblows? I've never seen a Custodes parry for another one even when it cost that Custodes their life.

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#25 Edited by decaf_wizard (17256 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: I would also question the feats that come out of any battle with the Emperor directly present in it such as Ullanor, seeing as to as the effects of Him and even His marked inferior of Saint Celestine can have on their allies in combat

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#26 Posted by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard: Yeah, Celestine is a force multiplier, also, looking through various Ork stuff such as Purging of Kadillus where Nazdreg killed a Dark Angel Chaplain in 1v1 combat [and then contacted Belial on the comm to mock them by laughing through it and saying 'dey all ded'.] but their power fields are no joke. The one I posted before was laughing off a power fist and Nazdreg's was strong enough that even while putting it out to protect himself and his bodyguard, he was tanking heavy anti-tank fire from lascannons and autocannons and the lascannon ran out of power long before the power field did.

Also, Nazdreg's Nob Bodyguards had a 3:5-6 Kill ratio against Dark Angel Assault Marines.

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#27 Edited by decaf_wizard (17256 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut said:

@decaf_wizard: Yeah, Celestine is a force multiplier, also, looking through various Ork stuff such as Purging of Kadillus where Nazdreg killed a Dark Angel Chaplain in 1v1 combat [and then contacted Belial on the comm to mock them by laughing through it and saying 'dey all ded'.] but their power fields are no joke. The one I posted before was laughing off a power fist and Nazdreg's was strong enough that even while putting it out to protect himself and his bodyguard, he was tanking heavy anti-tank fire from lascannons and autocannons and the lascannon ran out of power long before the power field did.

Also, Nazdreg's Nob Bodyguards had a 3:5-6 Kill ratio against Dark Angel Assault Marines.

Yea given how they both scale with Space Marines, an average Warboss should be decently superior to an average Custodes. It would likely take Shield Captains or above to really pull a win. A Captain General or Tribune would obviously dump on them too

Also were they Interrogator-Chaplain's or just Chaplains? Because if its the normal ones its significantly less impressive. An Interrogator-Chaplain is a member of the inner circle would be decked out in archaotech and gear the likes of which would be Chapter Masters level if they were in any other Chapter. I am rather sure they make use of Artificer Armour and Terminator armour quite frequently too

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#28 Posted by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard: Just a Chaplain. They likely would have mentioned if it was an Interrogator-Chaplain. :D Not meant to be super amazing, just another example of a Warboss smacking around an elite Space Marine. Was funny cause the Chaplain was doing his litanies in combat, so Nazdreg kicked him in the jaw, shattering it and most of his teeth so he couldn't speak anymore. Which.. when you think about it.. he should be roughly 7 feet tall.. and Nazdreg was in his mega armor so... that is a hella impressive kick in terms of height.

Mm, I don't know, I think a standard warboss without a powerfield vs a Custodes.. I think I'd back the Custodes for a good chance at winning. Warboss could win, but I could see the Custodes taking it. But I don't see a Custodes taking on 2 at once much less 4 like they have to do here.

See the rumors that have the next Ork book dropping with a new Thraka model and he will be a 'Prime Ork' now and so massive?

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#29 Edited by FullMetalEmprah (5616 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: The War in the Webway had forces from four of the traitor legions, daemon hordes, the daemon that was an echo of the first murder and a traitor titan legio, how is that small? It might not be the biggest battle in the setting but small really isn't the word. Also putting them against the Ultramarines isn't exactly fair, because the Ultramarines were the biggest legion in the Imperium. They'd literally just wear them down regardless of how good they were. I won't comment on the Pups, I'm biased against them. But they're definitely better than was observed in The First Heretic now.

We both know the reason the Emperor didn't use Custodes instead of Marines is because the process for making Custodes took too long and wasn't refined enough to make the amount required. He had to settle for Space Marines, especially once the Ruinous Powers interfered with his Primarch project. As for quotes, it's not with another Custode but one named Valerian fights alongside a squad of Grey Knights and parries for one out of instinct at the Battle of Lion's Gate. The battle was large enough that eight bloodthirsters led it and the daemons nearly overwhelmed the Imperial Palace. Unfortunately I can't quote it as I only borrowed the book.:/ I am pretty sure there were some instances of something like that in Master of Mankind too, but it's been months since I've read that so maybe not.

Edit: Wait, Thraka is gonna be a Prime Ork now? How recent is this?:O

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#30 Edited by decaf_wizard (17256 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut said:

@decaf_wizard:

See the rumors that have the next Ork book dropping with a new Thraka model and he will be a 'Prime Ork' now and so massive?

Yea I have seen. Remember our discussion on the exact meaning of Mag Uruk Thraka? Yea he probably hit that threshold when his WAAAGH's merged with that other Warbosses who's name I forgot

Loading Video...

I'd imagine something along these lines happened

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#31 Edited by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@fullmetalemprah: Because by the scale of HH conflicts it was small. It was elements from the Word Bearers, World Eaters, Sons of Horus and... Emperor's Children [IIRC] and some warhounds as that is all the Chaos Legio Audax is [However, Imperial titans also took part]. Compare that to the other, real, battles and it is quite small and the Sisters of Silence... kind of a big deal when facing daemons and it wasn't a large, open battle, it was a series of choke-points which suits the Custodes incredibly well. Didn't mean the entire Ultramarine Legion. Imagine what would happen if the Custodes fought an equivalent force of Ultramarines on, say, Istvaan. Wouldn't turn out well for the Custodes.

No, there is no real reason the Custodes could not have been produced in larger rates using a larger and ever growing pool of supplicants. The odds are lower but with a, literal, galaxy worth of candidates, you can make them if desired. Not like there were ever all that many Space Marines even in the Legions compared to what you'd think given the Imperium's size.

Watchers of the Throne? I can find it and browse through it if that is the book you are referencing. You.. do realize the Chaos Gods are the ones who gave the Emperor the power necessary to make the Primarchs, right?

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#32 Edited by decaf_wizard (17256 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut said:

@fullmetalemprah:

Watchers of the Throne? I can find it and browse through it if that is the book you are referencing. You.. do realize the Chaos Gods are the ones who gave the Emperor the power necessary to make the Primarchs, right?

That is speculation. Granted its the most likely of the theories but its not set in stone and even if its is true we aren't entirely sure if it was power or knowledge the Emperor needed to create the Primarchs. We know that the Emperor went through the portal to the Warp and did something in there with Chaos. The only claim to what that something is comes from a Deamon, possibly even le grand shitsquid Tzeentch himself, talking to Horus, and they infamously told him a crapload of half truths

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#33 Edited by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard: The only thing more damaging then a lie is the truth. More support for it then against it considering how hard Chaos tried to turn the Emperor into a god in the eyes of humanity.

Like, for instance, my personal favorite vision they showed a broken body on the throne and the statue of the four primarchs on Ultramar and Horus, incorrectly, assumes that is his destiny if he stays on the path and so starts down the path of betrayal, when, in fact, that future is the one that will come to pass if Horus betrays the Emperor. They showed him the truth, he just took the wrong meaning from it.

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#34 Edited by decaf_wizard (17256 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Well my point is that its so vague at this that there really isn't anything we can do beyond speculate what the Emperor did with Chaos. Quite frankly I wouldn't trust anything out of the mouth of a Daemon unless its completely confirmed to be at least somewhat accurate.

I personally think its unlikely it was power or technology he needed, I would assume it was knowledge seeing as he could already create guys like Valdor without even trying to make a Primarch level fighter and can create immortals essentially at will. Seeing as the Primarchs all seem to resemble a mini-emperor in one facet of his power/skill/ability similar to how a greater daemon would embody a facet of their respective Chaos God, it was likely that technique if anything that he got in the warp

  • Kurze: Mini-Emperor future sight
  • Vulkan: Mini-Emperor perpetual
  • Sanguinius: Mini-Emperor charisma
  • Magnus: Mini-Emperor psyker
  • Gulliman: Mini-Emperor statesmanship

and so on and so on

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#35 Posted by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard: I believe it was knowledge as the quote from Vengeful Spirit [IIRC] was that he wanted the 'Knowledge of Creation' or Gift of Creation, or something like that. Makes you wonder what he offered them?

I don't know if I'd Sanguinius got the Emperor's Charisma. That is probably Lorgar as he is the one who looks just like the Emperor. [Unless you are Lorgar and then you think Magnus looks the most like the Emperor cause their faces constantly 'shift' and you can never really know which one is the true face]. What is Sanguinius? Or Angron... since his hatred is more a byproduct of the planet he was raised on and the butcher nails rather then something inherent to himself.

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#36 Posted by decaf_wizard (17256 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Sanguinius was niceguy.jpeg though

But yea he likely got the best blend of all of the Emperor's traits, and a big shot of his love for humanity seeing as he seemed to be the sucessor for Emps if anything happened. I would agree Lorgar got the charisma.

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#37 Edited by FullMetalEmprah (5616 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Yeah but that's still a large force of Astartes and daemons, and the only things the Imperials had to really counter Audax were three titans and a Knight house with beaten up mounts for the most part. Sisters of Silence were effective against daemons, sure, but the Custodes were still able to best the Astartes enough that it actually pissed off a loyal Blood Angel because of how casually they were able to.

What? Yes there is, the process to create Custodes was too slow and complex to make an army of them, otherwise why wouldn't he have and then just trained them to fight like the Legions did? He didn't have a galaxy's worth of candidates before the Crusade, he'd just conquered Terra and signed a treaty with Mars. And even if he did, it still took too long. Astartes were made for mass production(hell that's the main reason geneseed is so important), Custodes were not.

Yeah that's the book, the Custode's name is Valerian. Interestingly, this is the same guy that called the Astartes natural prey to the Custodes. Also, yeah, but you do realize that once they discovered he screwed them over, they messed with the project by scattering the primarchs? I fail to see how he got the power to do so matters here considering he basically stole it and was using it in a plan to try and take them down.

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#38 Posted by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@decaf_wizard: Yeah, Sang is pretty great. You know, weird, but on Angron.. I honestly think his pain came from his immense sense of loyalty which is weird to think about.

@fullmetalemprah: I'm not home atm, I'll respond in full when I am and open the book to see what I can dig up on them feat wise as well.

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#39 Posted by SuperHulk24 (534 posts) - - Show Bio

It depends on the warboss.

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#40 Posted by FullMetalEmprah (5616 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Ok, no problem.

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#41 Posted by Killerwasp (17547 posts) - - Show Bio

Not sure how I missed this, but the Locust Horde come in and kill them both. GRAY IS BEST!

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#42 Posted by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@fullmetalemprah: Yeah, but I mean, again, Chokepoints. Forces them to engage on fairly small level engagements where the Custodes can excel. In a more open terrain, the tactics change considerably. Happen to remember what Imperial titans were fielded? I know that Imperial Legio has Warlords, but I don't recall any Warlords being fielded.

Terra and Mars, alone, were capable of fielding and supplying most of the Great Crusade forces, they didn't even start to demand tithes from their conquered worlds until the Emperor left and put the High Lords in charge. And that isn't the point, even at their height, there was never that many Space Marines, most legions had a couple hundred thousand and that is it. Many Crusader fleets had a few hundred space marines. If we are going under the assumption that not only are Custodes more then 1:5 good and have no weaknesses then replacing 200,000 Space Marines with 20,000 or even 2,000 Custodes is not only reasonable but logical since, just like with modern 40k, the Imperial Army can take the brunt of the losses and ground [And before anyone says Space Marines are faster and humans can't replicate that, I point to the Macharian Crusade, vast majority normal humans backed up by some Space Marines, and Solar Macharius conquered 1,000 worlds in just seven years.] Then you consider the fact that the process can be streamlined and expanded, and before you say it can't, and only the Emperor could do it:

  1. Outcast Dead shows a Thunder Warrior making new ones.
  2. Chaos already replicates Chaos Space Marines.
  3. Belisarius Cawl has already created bigger, better versions of Space Marines and has been pumping them out for thousands of years. One of the Primaris Marines even remembers the era of the Beast and when people weren't so religious before, so he was making them long before the Imperium discovered them.

So any attempt to say the creation process couldn't be more streamlined, expanded upon to create more in one batch regardless of the time needed to make and then staggered appropriately and advanced heaped on by other intelligent individuals [as the Emperor was far from perfect] and the entire idea behind Space Marines crumble because, again, even in the HH, single legions weren't throwing around millions of marines. It was hundreds of thousands, usually, two hundred thousand or so. So not only does the very quote that you are trying to say shows that Custodes are good in group warfare [despite what him saying gets them killed being..... exactly... what... group... warfare... is meant... to stop..................] yet are too hard to create and need to mass produce space marines [which, again, were never *that* mass produced] falls flat.

And what makes you think the Chaos Gods hadn't known the Emperor was going to do that and even counted on it? After all, in the game of 'I tricked you! Just as Planned!' The Chaos Gods won.

About to flip through the novel in a bit.

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#43 Edited by FullMetalEmprah (5616 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: I honestly don't remember, other than they were of Legio Ignatum and that all three were lost. And yeah chokepoints are good and all, but to be fair they held the Eldar city for a good while until Audax arrived and breached the city. Even without the Emperor(he was still on the Throne trying to keep the rift from spilling out until they sacrificed the psykers iirc).

Yes, you'd be correct, but supposedly the process for creating Custodes isn't the same at all as the method for making Astartes. It's an entirely different process, one that deemed by the Emperor unsuitable for building an army because it would take too long in his eyes. We don't know a lot about it besides it being described as messing with genetics a lot more than the marine process. We really don't know a lot about it yet but I'm guessing since they have a codex now(about time if you ask me) we'll find out more about it later on. Until then all I can say is that it's different and basically that's the reason we've been given whether it makes sense or not.

Honestly I was going to use Outcast Dead's Thunder Warriors stuff earlier but to be honest that book has a lot of inconsistencies. Because if I were to count that it wouldn't be hard to say unarmored World Eater>>>>>fully armored Custode since that dumb scene of one getting his spine torn out happened despite them being stated as the only warriors capable of culling the Thunder Warriors save the Emperor himself at the time.

For that bit about the Gods planning it...I mean honestly who knows? You could be completely correct, or completely wrong, it's just the nature of the game those godlike beings play with each other. I'd say neither of their plans went according to plan exactly but once again, who knows? Also this kinda got off topic a bit lol.

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#44 Edited by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@fullmetalemprah: Cities, so urban environments, are litterally filled with chokepoints that let smaller forces engage larger ones and is one of the many reasons they are considered a nightmare to attack.

Emperor had a set amount of time he wanted to do things, however, Macharius showed that you really don't need legions of space marines to conquer massive amounts of land. In fact, outside of the conflicts with the Orks... not... really.. a battle I can think of that really demanded their presence that I don't think humans couldn't have replicated [Perhaps Murder, but, I mean, just bomb it. There was nothing on it anyways besides super fast alien monsters]. Which probably annoys me most is people that know a decent amount about 40k always dismiss the Orks as the mooks yet don't understand that Orks have presented the greatest challenge to the Imperium more then any other faction besides, perhaps, Chaos and they are so integral to the fiction that one of the first special characters to ever be given rules was an Ork, Thraka [the other was Yarrick].

That was more the World Eater going 'Huh, not so immortal after all', but to be fair, that was a World Eater Sergeant and you don't become a World Eater Sergeant by being a bad fighter and the Custodes did have a bum leg [probably not a good time to mention a Deathjester and another Harlequin killed a dozen Custodes before they were overwhelmed... and in Watchers of the Throne, they lost 2,000 Custodes when they faced the daemons in open conflict].

Eh, considering Tzeentch, he probably helped both sides

Anyways, on some of the stuff from thrones:

Said he, the Custodes, and the Grey Knights saved each other from time to time, but, he also stressed how the Custodes did not fight as a unit.....

I was alone in that hour, as alone as I have ever been. The Grey Knights were always close by, and fought as an unbreakable unit, and therein lay the essential difference between us.

Do not think that we ignored one another – far from it. We saved one another from death many times in those first few decisive moments. This still remains, though – I fought in the way I had been bred to, driving my superlative physical form to its limit, gauging every threat with a microsecond’s precision, relying on the absolute integrity of my equipment.

They, though, were a brotherhood. I had learned their names by then – Alcuin, the Justicar, led the squad. They covered one another’s backs, they roared encouragement, they watched for a momentary slip from their battle-comrades. - Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion

While the Custodes saved the Grey Knight, doing so threw off his rhythm because they were not meant to fight as a unit [he was later saved by the Grey Knight Justicar who was not thrown at all by saving the Custodes]:

I saw one of Alcuin’s squad reel as he was struck, his psychic defences momentarily breached, and I interposed myself between him and his attacker, slicing its head from its shoulders before spinning back to face the next one. That left me a fraction of a second shy of where I needed to be, and the first blow cracked into my pauldron, knocking me into the embrace of a fanged and winged terror. - Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion

Sister of Silence noticing how incredibly dangerous the squad of Grey Knights were due to their impeccable teamwork [and she notes how the Custodes was just.. him]

Alcuin’s squad were far faster than I would have thought possible, and the way they combined into a tight-edged force multiplier gave us killing potential far beyond our paltry numbers. They were everything I had been schooled to admire in the Space Marines – implacable, focused, absurdly violent.

Perhaps Valerian outstripped them by a fraction, but then there was only one of him, and in that armour he was always destined to catch the eye. - Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion

So... yeah, this novel just further points out how the Custodes are not soldiers and the difference between them and the Space Marines is one fights as a unit, the other fights as individuals.

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#45 Posted by FullMetalEmprah (5616 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: I mean you're right about the whole Macharius thing, but it's the same thing as asking the Imperium to use logic again lol. If they did they stomp most of their enemies except the big ones, namely Tyranids, Orks, Chaos, and Necrons. Actually now that Guilliman's alive and kicking again the least he could do is reinstate the Imperial Army by combining the Navy and Guard again, would make things a lot more efficient.

I share your frustration of people overlooking the Orks, they're my favorite xenos species. But don't worry, if you guys were right and Ghazghkull is a Prime Ork now, I have a feeling that will change with the next Ork codex lol. And it's going to be glorious.

I mean, Custodes aren't invulnerable, but a World Eater sergeant? That wasn't even in armor? Come on, the Custode was still fully armed and armored, he should have dispatched that marine with ease. The harlequins can kill marines just as easy as the Custodes(if not easier) so them killing Custodes isn't so far out there. Also that daemonic host was led by eight bloodthirsters and was powerful enough to nearly reach the Eternity Gate before Guilliman's counterattack.

Well, one thing I agree with is that Astartes work together as a group better than Custodes, but Custodes despite being individual fighters do cover each other in their own weird way. It was in Master of Mankind I believe, but basically, their series of mini-duels IS them supporting each other while focusing on themselves. It's extremely weird, I agree, but apparently it works...somehow. It was described that they support each other without getting in the way of one's individual battles. They act more on instinct than well-drilled teamwork. Another thing to note is that he had never fought with Grey Knights before and had a rivalry with the Grey Knights. Despite this they worked together quite well despite their different approaches to fighting.

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#46 Edited by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@fullmetalemprah: They actually talked about that in the Thrones Book [TBH, if the entire book had just been on that human politician and followed him through the twist and turns of the politics of Holy Terra, it would have been a better book, imo. His parts were, by and far, the best]. One of the High Lords [fairly sure it was either the Inquisitor Rep or the Navy Rep] about reinstating the Imperial Army and bringing back the Legions.

Just a rumor, but I feel like he will be as they are doing the 'End Times' vibe now and Thraka has always been pushing in that direction.

But he didn't... And said World Eater Sergeant got wrecked by a Proto-Thunder Warrior later. And Harlequins get dropped by Space Marines just as easily, so it isn't a sign of honor that they killed them. More then 8 bloodthirsters, including Angron, were defeated by only a 100 Grey Knight Terminators. The Grey Knights didn't have the aid of the Sisters of Silence who weaken daemons, funny enough, when fighting the Bloodthirster in the book, the SoS were weakening the Grey Knight squad just as much as they were weakening the daemons, talk about a double sided sword in that engagement. Losing 2,000 because you faced daemons led by 8 bloodthirsters isn't good considering the Space Puppies, Grey Knights and IG threw down with a much larger incursion at Armageddon led by a Daemon Primarch and preformed better... because they fight better as an army.

I posted the scene in MoM where he was commenting on them fighting with each other but not fighting with each other, and again, the it does nothing. What it boiled down to was him going, "Its a misconception that we can't fight with unity!... We can be defeated when overwhelmed and or shot while we are fighting! Which... now that I think about it.. would.. be.. what.. fighting in a unit.. would stop since... tight formations keep them in front of you and reduce the numbers advantage especially when you have super human strength and endurance and... your.... comrade... watching your back is what stops the sneaky git from shooting you while locked in deadly combat which... so... we... I mean.. okay, so we don't do that at all and I just didn't know what I was talking about and tried to sound cool."

That is, literally, all you have in MoM. They don't fight as a unit. The onlything they do is they are so good they don't get in each other's way while fighting in a unit and so don't count as a negative towards one another, but when you have ten Custodes in a squad, you have ten Custodes. When you have ten Space Marines in a squad, you have something else entirely that is far more dangerous then the sum of its parts and that is what it boils down to.

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#47 Posted by FullMetalEmprah (5616 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Yeah, a High Lord coming with an actually good idea was basically the highlight of the entire book.

I'm inclined to believe that rumor as well, as much as I don't want a 40k End Times. They didn't handle it well with Fantasy at all and if they do I hope they build up all the factions to a really strong level and then let the person decide for themselves who wins, but I know they won't do that.

He didn't, but that doesn't change a fact it's an outlier compared to their other feats. Also uhh, can't Harlequins blitz assassins? I distinctly remember one doing so, but it might have been a Solitaire. Regular Harlequins might have comparable stats to marines but their gear can get pretty hax iirc.

Fair enough.

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#48 Posted by Wut (7438 posts) - - Show Bio

@fullmetalemprah: Yeah, and the way she said it, seems it was something she commonly said and they didn't react much besides of an eye-roll.

Eh, I mean, they tried that with Storm of Chaos, letting the outcome be determined by player battles, but if they had done it like the outcomes, Archaon never would have made it past Kislev because he got wrecked.

I don't remember them blitzing Assassins. Although I guess it would depend on the Assassin as Eversors blitz other Assassins. Could see a Vindicare getting blitzed. A solitaire doing it is believable though. They don't have comparable stats to Marines. They are faster then marines and more agile, but Marines are far stronger and more durable. Their stat strengths are in different fields. Eh, some of their weaponry is hax, but most of it is just what you'd expect from Eldar.

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#49 Edited by FullMetalEmprah (5616 posts) - - Show Bio

@wut: Yeah, but you'd think with the guy who separated them in the first place now Lord Commander of the whole Imperium, that would have been redacted in their current situation.

Didn't something like that happen with the Cadia way back in the day too? I remember something about they tried that with it and one side stomped the other really bad so they retconned it(I believe it was Chaos ironic enough lol). Either way I hope they just have the end result set up so that the setting isn't totally destroyed like with Fantasy.

Actually I think it was in one of the Beast novels, guy gets toyed with by a Harlequin and the Grand Master saved him at the last moment. I can't remember what type he was though, he had a lasgun on hand is all I remember.