2v2 Team CaV: Hulk & Superman VS Sentry & Goku (G&L won)

Final Conclusion:

Although conclusions are primarily wrapping things up instead of countering the opponent's points, I also feel that basically all of the points contained in your post need to be considered instead of leaving them idle just like that. In as much detail as I can squeeze into this final conclusive post, i'll explain as to why the Kryptonian will fall asunder at the hands and mercy of the most powerful Saiyan in history and one of the most powerful anime/manga characters to exist. Not that the Man of Steel hasn't put up a fantastic battle, no doubt he has, but at the end of the day I don't see him winning under fair circumstances:

Strength:

There obviously isn't anything significant that could be said for Goku in this aspect at all, as it's a given that Superman's strength is unparalleled by the Dragon Ball characters put together i'd say. Though I didn't see the need to post any other feats for Clark though other than to credit your post but you've already established the fact so Superman handily takes a point here. Although, physical strength alone definitely wouldn't be enough to overpower Goku in a battle as these combatants aren't going to be picking up skyscrapers and flinging them at one another as that's not how Goku mainly fights, and it's only on rare occasions if so, they're going to be exchanging blows and thus bringing us to one of the many crucial factors of the debate:

Superman - 1, Goku - 0

Striking Power:

It took a while, but you've convinced me that Superman's strikes deal more significant damage than Goku's do, however you'd still have to consider that shattering the fabrics of space was a result of Superman and Kal L's fists clashing together rather than it only done by Superman himself, it's still a superior feat to Goku busting King Kai's star nonetheless. Howeveras I shall reiterate later on, since Goku is the only one properly capable of commencing his strikes considering Superman's disadvantage in speed no matter how you look at it, i'd slide this advantage to the Saiyan here regardless of Superman's ability to hit harder overall because it should only go to the character able to hit. Goku would definitely be feeling the force of Superman's punches and i'd be willing to admit he'd be taken out in several hits though this premise would only apply to the scenario where the two combatants agree to a "you punch me, I punch you back" competition but in terms of a serious fight? Superman won't be able to land an effective blow on Goku to the point of dealing proper damage.

Also I should note something I had realized beforehand there's evidence that Super Saiyan 3 Goku strikes with the force to shatter a planet as did the Claw of Horus yet Superman was knocked out by it, so therefore I could actually argue that Super Saiyan 3 could actually one shot Superman based off of the Claw of Horus being Superman's best measurable blunt force trauma durability feat and yet reluctantly Goku can moderately dish out that force much better than Hawkman could as he'll be blitzing Superman throughout, so is there really anything suggesting Goku couldn't do it? Otherwise, Super Saiyan 3 is too much for Superman to handle even considering the limited time available for the Saiyan.

Superman - 1, Goku - 1

I'll regard the spoiler blocked argument referencing the Daizenshuu before I go onto durability:

Durability Versus Energy Projection:

Except there's no significant evidence or basis to use Superman's space/nova feats to argue against the logic of the character, the best durability feats for Superman on a planet containing an atmosphere with photosynthesis and functionality of life (thus absorbing solar radiation that Superman's body amasses) are not as much outdated or inapplicable as they are inconsistent to the nova feats or simply due to the logical differences of solar radiation between the vacuum of space and an atmospheric planet. It doesn't have to be stated to be considered, it can be merely showcased to us demonstrating the differences to how Superman performs while in space compared to how he had done on a planet so the feats are either inconsistent or due to less solar radiation. I'd focus on the latter as there's no evidence Superman could tank what he has took in space on the Earth considering the differences in atmosphere, due to common logic of how the Earth absorbs sunlight but anyway i'll give you an example to give you a better understanding of my point:

The fact that the feats contradict one another and because Superman handling supernovas is not actually comparably impressive considering he gains energy plus reserves the sun emits so there's a whole bunch of problems that trying to apply feats that took place in space based on the logical differences in solar emissions to the Earth so to actually apply these feats, you'll need to be able to prove that Superman retains the same durability regardless of the atmospheric differences between locations but since there's no supporting evidence of this along with the contradicting feats while on the Earth, there's no way to say he could tank the best of what he has done in space without consideration of the differences of solar radiation plus the fact that the feats are not as much outdated but instead inconsistent to his durability in space. Unless said evidence is provided, you can't say Superman retains the same amount of durability everywhere just so you can say he can tank Goku's best when you have virtually nothing to support nor defeat the logical premise of there being clear differences in durability depending on the amount of solar emissions based off of the character anatomy of Superman and inconsistent feats.

On the other hand, Goku has just as good of proper supporting and descriptive evidence as Superman's nova durability feats on the amount of power he can maximally omit depending on each transformation so he can properly deal tremendous damage to Superman as even a regular Super Saiyan but there's still on panel feats I can provide to suggest Goku can take out Superman under the planetary circumstances:

That's a feat that supports Goku for being a planet buster at least at that stage, considering he defeated a fifty percent powered Frieza's blast with his own Kaioken times twenty Kamehameha, so by the end of the series he'd be at least on the large planet level tier in his Base form considering the stage he had performed planet level power here and the fact that the amount of increases he has achieved throughout (this doesn't contradict the Kili measurements either as they were read in the Buu Saga where as Goku at the end of the series is considerably more powerful than when his Kili was measured).

Anyway as the evidenced descriptive power in the official guidebook suggests, Goku really has no need for ascending beyond a Super Saiyan 2 due to the fact he could truly plummet Superman's durability even if Superman retains the same as he does in space regardless of the logical atmospheric differences but that'll still need to be solidly proven. If it's true then Goku will have much tougher time cracking Superman's durability, but can pull it off regardless.Due to the more likely differences in durability while on the Earth, Goku won't have to exert himself opposed to if it took place in space but as it's surprisingly fortunate for me Goku can't survive in it so Goku's energy projection is sufficient to crack Superman's durability either way.

Superman - 1, Goku - 2

Stamina:

It's evident that Superman obtains another obvious advantage here, however the battle won't last long enough for this to matter but regardless Goku still has the sufficient stamina to last a considerable time against Superman nonetheless. In the instances were he becomes extremely tired out, were only because his opponent could either keep up or outpace him in speed but fortunately that's not even close to the case here as Superman can't land a hit on the Saiyan no matter and i'll confirm this argument based on feats later.

Anyway, I didn't use the "over a minute" instance for Super Saiyan 3 against Bills to imply he could beat Superman within that time frame I merely used it to apply a quantifiable length of time for the transformation to last before it begins to deteriorate Goku's stamina but i'll regard how Superman will fair against Super Saiyan 3 later as I don't believe he's truly able to force Goku to use the transformation. We can grant Superman this small advantage, it doesn't turn the tides of battle in the slightest unless Superman was durable enough to withstand Goku's best energy attacks and Goku didn't possess any significant stamina at all, but unfortunately neither premises are true. In terms of how I see this battle going down, it won't last long enough for this advantage to matter:

Superman - 2, Goku - 2

Versatility:

I really fail to see how you're properly justifying the claim of Superman's versatility exceeding Goku's other than you wanting it to, i'll address your points nevertheless however I don't see a proper and thorough comparison as the Saiyan's abilities can sufficiently work on Superman relatively well for the most part as Goku has the more adept abilities except the same cannot be said for Superman's working on Goku as the Saiyan's abilities also serve as perfect counters for Superman as well as being capable of creating considerable amounts of trouble for the Man of Steel depending on the ability:

• Sensory Abilities - I've already been over how Goku obtains the marginal edge in this, as he can pinpoint a small level of energy in a matter of seconds out of the Earth's population so that's better than what you've presented for Superman in this aspect. It's a negligible difference to consider it more than a slight advantage for Goku, but they aren't necessarily equal.
• Chi Shout - Except as I had said in my third post if I recall correctly, everything excluding non combat feats performed by either character can and should be considered into a debate but it's not as if you haven't used certain abilities from Superman also ignoring the fact that they've only been done once. Off the top of my head, the "devastating" super combo is one however I have considered it because it's been done by Superman in combat and that's all that matters to me. The "charge up time" for the attacks really don't take as long to charge and fire as you're making them out to be. Heat vision may be faster, but the point is Nappa's blast was far more powerful so there's no reason as to why he Saiyan wouldn't use this to cancel the heat vision out.
• Rapid Volley Blasts - These don't have much to do with durability as much as they serve as a distraction type of ability as it's like having steam blown into your face, sure it won't damage you but you'll be irritated. It'll succeed in staggering Superman at least, hardly dealing any significant damage but Goku's attacks would be far more powerful at the end of the series than they were at the Cell Games so Superman won't be bypassing these volley blasts with ease and he'll be fazed if Goku uses them. The same applies to all of his abilities, they're stronger by the series end than they were when performed.
• Kaioken - This was more of a counter to Superman's super combo however I have also demonstrated as to why it would be of decent use against Superman. Base Goku's stats in terms of speed is notably above Superman's speed already but considering how he's lacking in power to harm Superman, he'll use a burst of Kaioken to damage him slightly though hardly significantly i'll give you that, but this is more of a test in the actual battle for Goku himself to see if Super Saiyan and as he'll figure out, it is.
• Explosive Waves - Superman won't be able to get close enough to freeze Goku in the first place, but this ability is just to prove that Goku has ways of escaping from being entrapped if Superman miraculously manages to freeze him solid.
• Instant Transmission - Goku doesn't require this in the first place, he's already massively faster than Superman so he can rely on his speed alone to avoid basically all of Superman's attacks but he could use this to taunt the Man of Steel anyway. As I said before, Superman's phasing ability has never been used nor performed to work on opponent's faster than him so it's quite a big and vague assumption to assume it could work well against Goku considering the Saiyan has dealt with phasing speed before and has moved at these speeds himself since the age of twelve so this is nothing new to Goku. It doesn't contend with instant transmission in the slightest, nor does it make Superman able to avoid everything as you're assuming.

As for this supposed resistance to telekinesis Superman has, there's nothing that suggests Superman could resist telekinesis at all and as I had stated in my previous post, Black sent Superman flying effortlessly. Superman didn't look to be damaged i'll give him that but yet you're using this to assume that he can resist telekinesis when he obviously couldn't, why may I ask? Based on the feats you've presented for Black and a little research I had done on the character myself, Frieza is the far more powerful telekinetic than Manchester and squeezing Superman's capillaries only suggests Black is more skilled but it doesn't come close to make the assumption that he'd beat Frieza in a telekinetic battle based on the power of Frieza's telekinesis and yet we have seen Goku able to overpower and manipulate Frieza using his form of telekinesis as if it were like taking candy from a baby.

I've proven that Superman can be held in place by telekinesis and he has no proper resistance to the ability at all, there's nothing going for you that could plausibly say he could resist Goku's level of telekinesis considering how the Saiyan is above Frieza who his above Black based on feats. It really doesn't matter if Superman can't be harmed by the ability, as Goku can use it to manipulate him nonetheless as Superman isn't fast enough to overwhelm Goku that you've ignored consistently and if he can't phase himself out of a mental attack mate unless he has shown the ability to do so and speed is also out of the question against a telekinetic who is over ten times faster than you so finally i'll seal the versatility section by countering these incorrect assertions of yours:

• "Matched Speed Blitzing" - I didn't realize Superman suddenly became as fast as Goku, probably because he's noteven close. Goku has blitzed far faster opponents than Superman has and some were a lot faster than Superman in general, so speed blitzing goes to Goku without question due to being faster and by achieving his top speed instantaneously.
• "Heat Vision to Blast Goku" - Hardly a smart tactic, that'd drain quite a lot of Superman's power where as Goku could easily defeat it requiring only an uncharged energy blast that has ruptured planets and opened craters. At the end of the series, planet busting attacks wouldn't even be a challenge for Goku considering he could overpower them since the Frieza Saga so engaging the Saiyan at one of his own games isn't the best of solutions to be honest. If you're going for a precision type of attack it such as pinpointing Goku with heat vision bullets wouldn't affect him in the slightest because he's laughed off Frieza's death beams.
• "Freeze Breath to Incapacitate Goku" - This isn't an option for Superman if he can't hit his opponent, and unfortunately the same applies to basically every one of Superman's means of offense. Besides, he won't be able to completely coat Goku in frost as he'll smash the ice before it takes full effect so this ability isn't very useful here.
• "Thunder Claps" - Except I have provided and explained as to why Goku's Chi Push is sufficient to cancel out the effects of this altogether, an ability that wasn't even considered on your behalf. "Whirlwinds" - Countered, a Chi Shout is a lot more powerful so couple that with instant transmission to escape and you're not getting anywhere by suggesting Superman could possibly drain the oxygen from Goku's lungs.
• "Super Combo"- There's no way Superman is as fast as you'd want him to be to perform this efficiently along with all his other abilities, and it's only been used on a much slower opponent which obviously isn't the case here so you're out of luck by saying it trumps the Kaioken that's used specifically to harm opponents vastly superior to Goku in the first place.
• "Phasing Ability" - A baseless assumption that Superman can replicate an ability as well as he has done on opponents not even close to Goku's speed caliber and it doesn't make Superman intangible, he's only phased a couple of times per use. Plus, instant transmission blows it out of the water.

I do suppose I could see where you're coming from by claiming Superman's abilities are more efficient to use than Goku's, but they're simply not. I have explained as to why Goku's abilities work on a vaster scale and more effective against Superman simultaneously acting as counteractive sides to Superman's versatility itself so couple all of this with the fact that Goku is the more adept combatant based on instinct plus the superior intellect and better fighter in general and it's clear that Goku blows Superman in out of the water in this category. Similarly your speed argument, i'm more than willing to suggest that the true argument isn't even close to what you're trying to make Superman's abilities out to be, when in terms of actual feats they have performed on a much lesser scale than Goku's abilities and aren't big to the Saiyan himself. That's the aspect of versatility officially sealed for good to Goku's favor:

Superman - 2, Goku - 3

Combat Speed:

Unlike the properly debatable sections such as energy projection versus durability and striking power, the speed aspect coupled with versatility are two factors that you're simply just not meeting at the end of the day. You're using inapplicable feats for Superman such as his ability to speed up his senses/movements however I had reiterated in detail in my last post as to why these feats truly cannot be used to apply to Superman's ability to fight. Even if Superman could plausibly speed up his senses sufficient to perceive Goku's best speed, there's no demonstrations of his limb movements as to how he'd dish out attacks so we can't assume they're sped up as well so Goku would still be easily dodging Superman's punches due to their inability to perform in a fight as opposed to their use outside of combat clearly different than when you're up against a much faster opponent trying to battle you.

The fallacious idea that Superman can speed up his senses in a fight fails to be justified properly, so the only feats we can consider on your part are the ones of Superman battling other considerable opponents but unfortunately they still pale in true comparison as the considerations of the context of the scans isn't being met either so before I reiterate Goku's superior speed itself and the fact that you completely misinterpreted or ignored my solid speed case for Goku, i'll counter your points to Superman's speed:

• Spotting Swamp Thing's Astral Form - I'm not convinced that spotting Swamp Thing's astral form was a combat speed feat as based on most of the feats you've been providing throughout, and also because most of the scan was blanked. It doesn't enable him to nullify any sort of speed from Goku as there's no given indication of how fast Superman can perceive whilst in intense combat opposed to calm situations where Superman isn't being attacked by someone many times faster than him in all aspects.
• Contending With Jay Garrick - Superman keeping up with Jay Garrick was an obvious travel speed feat, and I don't need to tell you the differences between combat/travel speed. It's obvious that Superman can travel at many times the speed of light, however in terms of actually fighting he best he's going to get is just light speed. Superman does have three nanosecond feats to his name, but none of which were him fighting against an opponent much faster than he is nor actually reacting to anything.
• Tagging Zoom - I wasn't referring to Jay's statement, I was talking about Barry Allen's statement of "Professor Zoomis on par with Barry, and Zoom.. his powers have nothing to do with the speed force, he's fueled by time" so your claim of this Zoom possessing powers from the "reverse speed force" is contradicted by the on panel statement. Due to that, since Zoom's powers are tied in with time it's no way to use his feats to Superman's advantage as he isn't speedy in the first pace, so how can you justify speed on an opponent who technically isn't fast? You can't really, but even if your premise is true i'd call it nothing more than plot induced stupidity if Superman has tagged someone equal to the Flash in speed who is an opponent supposed to be much faster than Superman or it's either because Flash wasn't fighting at his fastest. Either way, i'm not buying Superman able to keep up with Flash at all unless it's due to Flash holding back his full speed (which he does often, if I recall) or it's simply plot driven stupidity.

The best you've brought to the table is Superman's ability to react at light speed but nothing quantifiable could put him any faster, I can assure you that Wonder Woman isn't close to Goku past the Frieza Saga in all aspects of speed let alone his baseline speed by the end of the series but Diana was fighting pretty sloppily in the instance with Superman compared to her other and better feats especially when she battle a blood lusted Superman. There's no way Superman is fast enough to land a hit on somebody equal to the Flash due to Zoom merely manipulating time plus the Flash never properly fighting at full speed other than putting him at the speed of light, so you haven't suggested he could tag Goku i'm afraid so i'll reiterate my case of Goku's speed:

Although several speed feats are solid showings for Goku, I’m not at all sold on Goku dodging energy blasts. You’ve only used the statements “flash of light” or something to that effect to make out that Goku has dodged light speed attacks and by that logic, this makes him FTL in combat

I already conceded to the falseness of the solar flare premise, however did you even glance at the final speed case I had provided for Goku based off of solely feats? I can understand if you misinterpret a couple of aspects of my arguments from time to time, but this is probably just blatant ignoring the solid cases that I have provided enabling my arguments to hold better credibility over yours. I'll briefly reexplain my case in a spoiler block just to remind you:

Anyway, that's a solidified case to Goku's speed and based on actual feats which are what you've intended for me to use. Superman's best combat/reaction speed doesn't even enable him to keep up with Goku's least, so let alone any Super Saiyan form and especially using the unreliable/baseless assumption that he could speed up his senses to spar with Goku's superior speed as there's no way to know how Superman would exchange a punch efficiently. One cannot simply use feats that weren't ever performed in combat to assume they could apply well in a fight if there's no way of knowing, and the last conclusion to this aspect here is that Superman's speed isn't remotely close to what you'd want it to be in order for your striking power and ability arguments to actually apply. In order to stay fair and not assume too much, i'll only base Goku's speed off of the Frieza Saga so you're up against the minimum requirements and yet the Man of Steel still ultimately pales in comparison to the point where Goku's lack of sufficient durability is moot.

Superman - 2, Goku - 4

I do have more than enough variables to support the claim that Superman doesn't come close to comparing to a Super Saiyan 3 Goku based off of the immense energy projection Goku beholds in this form coupled with his vastly superior speed and the crucial fact that Superman was knocked out cold by an artifact containing the force of a planet that Goku casually strikes at in Super Saiyan 3. Couple that with Goku's speed, and there's a chance of Superman being beat in an instant. So truly even if Superman wouldn't be one shotted by Goku's hit in that form (but you'd need sufficient evidence to support he could), there's no way he could handle being speed blitzed to hell and back considering Goku's vastly excelling speed so he'd be landing these forceful hits alongside the force of his speed and thus he could at least tear down Superman's durability significantly enough to waste him with a Kamehameha if his nova durability still applies that of which will require undeniable proof, but that's all able to be accomplished by Goku within the minute and twenty second limit considering his speed. Nevertheless, Superman doesn't quite match up to a Super Saiyan 3 at all other than the stamina issue, but fortunately Superman isn't nearly fast enough to contend with Goku at all never mind a form as speedy as this so he can handle the Man of Steel quickly and easily.

If the Saiyan wants a challenge, Goku will stay in Super Saiyan 2 still way faster and powerful enough to beat Superman assuming his durability is the same regardless of the locale, but that'd need provided and undeniable evidence other than "that's a ridiculous argument" but even assuming so, Goku still wouldn't be touched at all.

Verdict:

I do see exactly where you're coming from thinking Superman has what it takes to beat Goku and although he does for the most part, he is simply outpaced and eventually overpowered by the Saiyan's prowess in those two primal aspects. There's not enough substantial evidence that Superman could keep up or land a hit on Goku at all, so couple that with the fact that Goku has performed feats and has authorial force behind him suffice to say that he'll crack through Superman's durability regardless of whether it's different or not similarly to how he eventually overpowers his opponents all of the time. At the end of the day while Superman may possess the true prowess in physicality, he comes off as a too much of a brick in comparison to Goku who has performed his abilities on a much vaster and superior scale no matter how you turn it coupled with the fact that he is generally more adept of a combatant than Superman is.

The Saiyan is the faster, smarter, more adept, possesses better abilities, more instinctive and the more powerful combatant plus has proven he has what it takes to survive and overcome Superman in so much as the mere Super Saiyan 2 form but truly has no requirement to ascend to Super Saiyan 3 as Superman isn't worthy enough to force Goku up to that point and to save energy. Goku could speed blitz Superman in that form and win, but he couldspeed blitz the hell out of Superman whilst using instant transmission to charge up a maximally omitted Kamehameha sufficient to surpass Superman's durability either way regardless of the questioning of it's differences. While I do accept that on panel feats are better than everything else for the most part, it's illogical to presume that's the only way to go about debating as long as there's a form of quantifiable evidence to apply to a character it should still be considered as it's still evidence regardless but nonetheless we can base Goku off of solely on panel feats and he'd still come out on top but just with added difficulty.

The way I see it is that Goku is not only the faster and more powerful one of the two to the point where he won't be touched and eventually shred up Supes' durability, but his other abilities coupled with his vastly superior intellect. There's so much more to be said on this aspect such as Goku's mind to formulate plans while in the heat of the moment, the fact that he picked up on the ability to blend in with the calmness of the skies allowing him to perceive the slightest current movements in the atmosphere and battle his opponents disregarding the need to physically see them plus his evident training of martial arts which progressed him to best expert martial artists through sheer instinctive intellect and speedy mind processing alone.

Based on Goku's mental anatomy/thought processing and opponents he has overcome, Goku has an exponent and highly distinct advantage against Superman as Clark is paling in terms of diversity that of which Goku possesses and excels in. All of this combined with his speed in aspects creates a nigh impossibility for Superman to contend with the Saiyan considering Superman's physical predictability, a major downfall as he hasn't ever contended with someone of Goku's unparalleled advantages in these respects and others. Anyway this sums up my argument as to why I for one believe that the Kryptonian pales in comparison to the Saiyan when you properly consider what he has to offer and once Superman has been dealt with, Goku handles his business with Banner and aids Sentry leading to his team's success today. I probably won't officially debate this topic for at least a long time as i'm satisfied with who I have debated against and a truly challenging one I might add, it's been great fun doing this so i'm signing off with a similar premise to your statement from Superman by using a statement from Goku basically concluding my argument and point of view in a cropped scan:

@pope052@ghostravage I sincerely apologise for butting in out of nowhere guys but this is the one thread I've kept an eye on whilst I've been offline from CV. When I saw Pope and GR had problems posting the spoiler blocked scans, I decided I'd break my curfew and insert the spoiler blocked scans in there as well. Otherwise my spoiler blocked scans would be missing from my final argument which would damage its credibility. And people wouldn't have gotten the full picture. Thank you guys for posting it though, I do appreciate it greatly. I just wanted to make sure it was fully completed so everyone could see what I was getting at :P

But seriously well done to you guys and @nighthunder too for finishing this debate, I figured I should finish add to my own conclusion to help out. Now I vanish back into exile for the time being. Adios again CV!

A CaV too big, unforgettable, and glorious for words :)

@neongamewave@easternwind@dratini1331@reaverlation@stupid_people@wolverine08@sheenlantern@wyldsong@princearagorn1

Voting is all open people, a reason is always appreciated too!

Yikes, this is f%cking crazy.

Voting Session is OPEN!

@wolverine08@dondave@reaverlation@oreoassassin@neongamewave@unbreakable_fs4@sophia89@nickzambuto@stupid_people@darkbiscuit@raynorj@hart7668@killemall@granitesoldier@theacidskull@god_spawn@king_stranglehold_da_first@thatguywithheadphones@princearagorn1@superlightning123@kingant27@dratini1331@dccomicsrule2011@frozen@experio

Calling out for votes guys, reasoning for the chosen vote would be gladly appreciated as well as some constructive critic.

@pope052@nighthunder@lvenger Anyone else you might want to call out?

This is going to be a crazy long read. Lol.

@ghostravage:

I think we're good enough for now at least, let's see how it goes.

@ghostravage: Yes, I have been watching over this CaV for quite some time (every time it's come up actually). Extremely impressed with both sides, however I'm going to have to give it to @lvenger and @ghostravage, I just think their argument had more concrete evidence and less conjecture. @pope052 and @nighthunder certainly put up a strong debate, and definitely emphasized the advantages the DBZ team, however I just think they sort of lost a bit of steam as it went on and made some flimsy assertions of the other team. However, I do think Pope's team presented feasible counters which were prevalent throughout the debate and capitalized on the weaknesses of GR's team. Overall, I think this is a unique debate as the debate itself was a hard fought one. Definitely best DBZ debate I've seen.

@frozen:

Thanks for voting mate,

• Lvenger & GhostRavage - 1
• NighThunder & Pope052 - 0

OMG OMG OMG wow!

This incredibly long debate is one of the if not the best CaV I've seen since being part of Comicvine. It included 2 of my long list of favorite characters being properly debated by 2 people who know how to use them to their best.And those 2 characters,debated by @lvenger and @pope052,are Superman and Goku.A rivalry that's as big and highly debated like Superman vs Hulk or Batman vs Captain America getting the proper justice it deserves.Now:

Who I vote for is extremely close and was hard and hurtful to decide and I'll explain why.

All of you were excellent in who you represented here in this debate.

4.@nighthunder,though it seemed like your 1st time using Sentry,presented him quite well and showed why he is a top powerhouse and why he deserves recognition for the power he has.It was nice seeing Sentry's potential being debated with detail.

2.@ghostravage your arguments for Hulk are almost unparalleled. Your posts outside of this debate on Hulk has already gave me respect for the Big Green Guy but this debate showed why Hulk is among the top and most powerful high tier characters from either universe despite the lack of certain qualities that would normally give others the win over Hulk like flight.It made sense as you pulled your big guns out and use it to the MAXIMUM but overall fantastic :)

3.Now YOU...YOU ridiculously shined here @lvenger. From an obvious PoV,you definitely showed why Superman is among the most powerful in his class especially since there's a class named after him lol.You're debate with him was just a fantastic read and it should be to whoever reads it. Superman being among your top favorites was shown here and hopefully you show this same prowess in other debates

1.@pope052 all I have to say is...well..um basically you done an absolute spectacular job.You represented 1 of my top favorite characters with unparalleled knowledge. Reading your debate with Goku deserves to be bookmarked or a page of its own on how to use the character. Goku has gotten a bad name and shown to be weak among others but this debate shows why Goku has the right and obvious power to hang with top powerhouses like Superman and Hulk and it's a huge thanks to you :).

There's a reason I put numbers and that's because it's like a rank.Nighthunder you're last because your debate with Sentry seemed a little lackluster.A powerful argument you put up but that power wasn't fully released in this debate just like Sentry :).Now I messed up the numbers but Lvenger you're ranked 3.It's not that you did bad at all from what I read it's just that debating Superman seemed easier than debating Hulk or Goku and I'll explain as I go on.But a fantastic job you did and it was to no lesser extent from what I expect from you.Ghostravage I ranked you 2 for a reason and that's of the character you used.You came in here with a seemingly obvious disadvantage using Hulk and shown why that disadvantage was of no worry. Debating Hulk against characters with flight just seems like a big no no for Hulk but with your outstanding knowledge on Hulk,you proved not only me wrong but hopefully others who take time to respect the power Hulk has :).Pope I place you in rank #1 because you debated a character who not only has a bad reputation here but with a different type of debating style that's not used when debating only DBZ characters. You had to apply the debating style that's used here on battle forums and not the hated ABC logic used among in DBZ battles.IMO it seemed like you had the most difficult job without being accused of calculations and other junk that gets DBZ characters hated and that's why I rank you #1.

But overall the difference in the rankings is small as everyone was phenomenal here and a giant Graduation clap to the debaters here (clap clap clap).But I have to choose who wins and my decision is (drumroll)......

Team @lvenger and @ghostravage of Superman and Hulk. Ghost's arguments for Hulk really caught my attention on why I vote this team.Hopefully I explained before on how I really came to choosing this team through the rankings :).But in the end,fantastic job to all and was an honor being here watching this fantastic out of this world debate :).

P.S. @lvenger good luck on your exams and finals and all that good stuff in school :).

Lvenger and GhostRavage get my vote

@reaverlation:

Awesome man, thanks for the kind words as they're highly appreciated. I definitely must give it to Lvenger though, he gave me the most difficult debate on the site thus far and probably will reign that title in my mind for a long time. Nevertheless, I feel I said all that I have ever wanted to say on this topic disregarding the need of the average Dragon Ball styles of debating that some and I myself have been a victim to in the past, thanks again mate:

• Lvenger & GhostRavage - 3
• NighThunder & Pope052 - 0

@pope052: No problem at all bru :).

@reaverlation: Thanks for such a breakdown mate! I agree completely :) Also, thanks or the kind words.

This.

Although I am actually fairly impressed with the Goku debate, I think he actually has a good shot against Superman. Overall though, I have to go with Lvenger and GhostRavage.

• Lvenger & GhostRavage - 4
• NighThunder & Pope052 - 0

You guys are going strong, and well deserved too :). @ghostravage what would you say we'll limit this to? I'd usually suggest ten votes but considering the length of this debate, we could easily go on for longer and i'm cool with doing it either way.

@pope052: As long as you guys want to. Im ok with it and im actually enjoying the reasons stated here.

my vote is with Lvenger and GhostRavage

No problem bru!You deserved it :)

And @pope052...

Goku awaits another challenge :D

@ghostravage:

We can keep it up to at least ten votes and if there's a drop in people voting from that point, I suppose we could close it but I don't mind how long it stays open to be honest. Hell, we could go over 9,000!

• Lvenger & GhostRavage - 5
• NighThunder & Pope052 - 0

@dccomicsrule2011@floopay@kidman560@cosmicallyaware1@hart7668@monsterstomp@ghostrider2@darkazrael999@jmarshmallow Let's try to get some more votes reeled in.

@reaverlation:

That's unfair for Goku to be honest, though I would argue for Mr Satan ;P

In what words possible can I describe this debate? Universal, unimaginable, perfect, magnificent, groundbreaking, abstractedly abounding in after thoughtfulness cutting edge, atmospherically all awesome :) This debate will be remembered and rediscovered as the one debate to be undefined in the defining of the dimensional and it is definitely in my top three debates of all time!! With all that said I feel as if the winners are split into two for both sides with a winner and edger on both sides. @ghostravage edged out @nighthunder with his ending envision of ever knowings and preparations as his points were pinpointed with greater potency as well as proficiency although Nigh did a great job in showcasing Sentry`s feats acting on the importance of clearing the different arguments with the ability to counter by countering accordingly to what was in question. Now in terms of Superman vs Goku, I`m not convinced that Superman would be able to contend with a SSJ3 Goku let alone SSJ2 who is maxed out on KI energy. Now @lvenger like his respective character Superman was a powerhouse in virtually every kind of aspect, vocabulary, literary skill, structuring sharpening, intellectual insight and he was magnificent it was a lot to behold as I was left impressed just bursting with excitement to read more and more.... But to me personally @pope052 takes this with a fair victory as always he brings his A game the level of detail is beautiful and its gracefully godlike in the sense of flow, rhythm and reason everything comes together as that type of imagery that`s what I get with his debating also it felt as though @pope052 was steps ahead of Lvenger during the events and effects of the debate his arguments and counters had great impact even during this whole debate I felt like I was constantly being persuaded, convinced, left speechless by all of the arguments but Pope still managed to keep my eyes on his arguments and that`s a testament to the truth of his gifted abilities. Now Goku was done justice in regards to having a case provided that has all the answers to the all the questions in regards to Goku being the clear victor. Pope made sure not to leave out any important details which includes the big and small, now in terms of character conflict Goku takes this easily and while I`m very tempted to write a large and really fun essay (I`m not joking lol) on why Goku wins more times than not, I`m going to leave it at this. Superman and Flash conversing at slowed perceptive speeds is not really impressive considering in the later panels, Superman confirms that he was traversing at hypersonic speeds with the Flash the entire time and its not like Goku hasn`t already moved at a pace in which time was at absolute zero with no motion being made movable. This adds to Pope`s arguments because he was entirely right on the fact that Goku had the more combat natured and nurtured DNA design in his very being his feats by default are going to be built on battle, many of Lvenger`s explanations and feats were not by 100% fact or definition combat instances a lot of them are travel related misconceptions and Goku`s travel feats actually come really close regardless if that comparison were to be counted. Superman rupturing the space and time continuum along with that of Kal-L isn`t something worth noting when it wasn`t by Superman`s own authority of power its not the same as Superman Prime punching through reality and Goku when colliding with Frieza (in Kai) caused for their to be a gravitational pull of reality in SSJ 1 form also Super Buuhan was ripping holes within reality ON HIS OWN POWER there`s a clear difference we haven`t even seen Superman replicate these feats he rather actually contradicts his own feats also making the excuse of the handbooks not being reliable is infallible due to the fact that those same handbooks have been referenced and reinforced as fact by all associations dealing with Dragon Ball the publications are not minimal or minute their very highly resourced and rejoined as fabric that is faceted with facts. Superman tagging the Flash is not impressive anyway, Barry admits that he is holding back and he`s barely tapping into the Speed Force also Superman has extreme trouble in holding onto Barry when he does manage to gain grip on him, Superman has poor feats when facing teleporters and skilled opponents that`s Goku staring him in the face as the ultimate unwinding force of reckoning mother nature. I really want to say so much more and I have a lot to say, I can easily prove on the spot why Goku curbstomps Superman but I don`t find it necessary for this place and time, I rather wait for the right time to come. In terms of who wins this debate I`m going to give it to @pope052 and @nighthunder although it was extremely close. I want to say this debate was a stalemate as I also want to divide my decision in two for both sides to have a vote but that wouldn`t be fair in any real shape or form for either party so I`m going to be 100% sure and pure here. With all of that said, you all were amazing A Class debaters as well as acts overall in this electrifying event. I`m extremely grateful to have witnessed this debate from start to finish it will never be forgotten I promise you that!!

Sorry, I'll try to get back to this when I get time to vote.

PS: @neongamewave, nice Xin Avatar XD It's my favorite flash series.

i gotta read through this again to be able to put a fair vote in. I'll be back..............

@lvenger and @ghosravage get my vote, but awesome debate, I said the reason I choose them is really bc lvenger did a excellent job showing how powerful superman is and not to mention even if goku won, he be tired since goku would had to resort to ssj 3 wasting most of his ki and get pummuled by a wbh who already regenerate from his injuries. If nighthunder could had done a better job arguing for sentry I probaly would had choose his team since Sentry also has regen and could beat superman if he had won against goku

@neongamewave:

Thanks for the excellent reasoning mate, always a pleasure reading through your opinion on these matters ;)

• Lvenger & GhostRavage - 6
• NighThunder & Pope052 - 1

Team One is taking the strong lead, let's see how things go.

this is exactly what i would have said but yeah @lvenger and @ghostravage get my vote... i feel like Nighthunder could have done a better job with Sentry

Let me start by saying this is the best Goku vs Superman and Hulk vs Sentry debate I've seen and I wish to offer my congratulations to all involved. Starting with Goku vs Superman I have become quite stumped and could not reach a verdict there. Therefore I turned to Sentry vs Hulk where while both debaters were exceptional I felt Hulk held the advantage.His pure strength shown by GhostRavage is in my opinion too much for Sentry and I believe GhostRavage did best in his removal of the element of speed in the battle. I believe that once Hulk and Sentry had finished Goku vs Superman would be over but whichever combatant who survived would be too broken to help Sentry and thus I believe the battle goes to lvenger and GhostRavage.

I'll go with Ghostravage on Hulk just because he really dropped some knowledge. My quick answer on Lvenger v Pope is I'll go with Lvenger. I'll go in on my reason later when I have time. It's just the whole on panel vs speculation argument.

Great debate by both teams. My vote goes to @ghostravage and @lvenger. The arguments for Supes and Hulk was exceptional, both got every mentionable detail and countered each point very well. I especially loved when superman's strategic mind and quick thinking during combat was displayed.

As for team two, Goku and Sentry were represented very well. If I were to pick, I'd say the argument for Goku was presented better than that of Sentry. I understand it was Nighthunder's first time using Sentry so it's completely understandable. He did a praiseworthy job regardless of this fact.

I Vote For Mr Popo (@Pope052) and Nighthunder. I liked the way that they did justice to goku abilities spite all the hate he and dragon ball In general, gets here. Goku is my role model and all time favorite. It's just nice to see him get treated respectfully. That's why I follow pope around on dragon ball threads. He debating was good and I loved the way he countered lvengers claims. Lvenger gave pope a HUGE run for his money. I was on the thread that pope mentioned. I saw how firm oven gee was. He did really well. He also gave me something to say on my dbz memes.But fanboyism aside, pope did awesome. But every was well. I was taught a lot about hulk and sentry. Pope and nighthunder get my vote.

COME ON PEOPLE! Show pope some love. guess ill have to post some memes....

This was one of the greatest debates I have ever read, going beyond what was expected of any participant. I would like to congratulate everyone on a job well done. I'll admit when I first started reading this debate I didn't expect Hulk to be much of a threat but @ghostravage has blown me away with the way he has represented his character. I also have to give respect to @nighthunder for debating very well for a character he has never used before.

While I wish I could give my vote to all users, I have to give my official vote to @pope052 and @nighthunder. The debate between Superman and Goku was epic but I have to agree with @neongamewave (a very well thought out post) that pope had his opponent on the ropes and was consistently a step ahead. Great debating, everyone.

@lvenger and @ghostravage gets my vote.

@darkazrael999: @scottvstheworld: @superlightning123: @unbreakable_fs4: @hart7668: @jhaigo: @kidman560:

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to read through the debate and vote, regardless of who you picked :)

• Lvenger & GhostRavage - 11
• NighThunder & Pope052 - 3

Man, we're getting dominated.

@lvenger: @ghostravage: @pope052: @nighthunder

Alright, I guess my vote doesn't mean poop seeing how this thing is pretty much over.

But, I spent my got damn time reading this long a$$ debate. LOL. So I'm voting got damnitt.I'm voting for the Hulk/Superman team. I'll explain why.

Alright, great debate. Wow, a lot of solid points covered. I felt like Lvenger debated Superman's Superior use of tactics & his versatility of powers when compared to Goku very well. The scans of Mogul really stuck with me.

I felt like an aspect of teamwork here was lacking though.These essentially turned into two individual battles, which favored Superman & Hulk much more than it did Goku & Sentry.

Pope got really bogged down in trying to power scale & the math just didn't hold up.

It took a while, but you've convinced me that Superman's strikes deal more significant damage than Goku's do

Pope also conceded a lot of ground to Superman in terms of pure strength & striking power.

In short, Superman can stand up to the best of what Goku can throw at him and take it on the chin. The same cannot be said for Goku's ability to endure what Superman can dish out in spades. And this is the crux of why I think Superman wins for the most part over Goku.

Lveger also put together a much better final conclusion wrap up.

------------------------------

Now with Ghost vs Nightthunder, I felt like Night was walking up a never ending staircase. Ghost immediately debunked Sentry's only two real advantages; invisibility & teleporting. Night was never able to provide scans of Sentry using that in his actual fighting style in character. The fact that the battle was in character, was much more beneficial to Superman/Hulk.

Alright, congrats to everyone. You're all winners in my book.

Thanks :) Me too, I put it up there with my favorite series of all time and its definitely in my anime series list as well, many consider it to be a web anime although its a Flash Animation series (which usually are underrated).

@pope052: adjust the votes accordingly...lol.I vote @pope052

Both sides did an amazing job here, truly a debate to be remembered. I accidentally stumbled upon this thread this morning when I got into work and read the whole thing thru, took me a few hours and I wasted a lot of work time too, lol, but is was definitely worth it. I wish the concept of it being a team battle had been explored a bit more because I think it would have helped Goku and the Sentry a bit more honestly, but the way it was handled was fine too. I've always been Biased for Goku beating Supes since i was a kid, but this thread actually changed my opinion on Supes who I have always viewed as a glorified plot device but I think I may actually like the character now. I feel similar about the Hulk and Sentry and before this thread I would have said Sentry wins, No buts about it. If someone a bit more experienced with Sentry had made the argument here (of course on Nighthunder's level of debating skill) maybe I would think differently, but as it stands I think Hulk takes Sentry. It would take a little bit but it wouldn't end well for Sentry...If it was truly one on one. But both sides said if a battle finished the Winner would be available to aid their ally and in contrast to the Hulk v Sentry I think Goku v Supes would end quite a bit faster. Not instantly , but much quicker. And I think Goku's superior skill coupled with at best supes and Goku's comparable combat speed would give Goku the ability to take Supes down. I basically see it being similar to Bruce Lee fighting Mike Tyson (Not trying to say Supes lacks skill, just nowhere near Goku) and Goku would be able to "deconstruct" The Man of Steel. I'm just not convinced supes has the durability to not be taken down. Supes has been K.O.'d by people with a level of damage output similar to his and Goku's Damage Output is definitely similar to Supes, maybe not outright greater but most definitely similar. If I had to give it an out of 10 like other Threads for just them, I say 7/10 for Goku (more like a 6.5 or something but I rounded up :p). Which brings me to my point. I think Sentry can last long enough to get back-up from Goku. It would never be a stomp but I'm firmly Hulk wins vs. Sentry, 10/10, but not in a stomp. It would take way too much time for Hulk to finish it, and Goku's superior Range and speed coupled with Sentry playing a glorified shield/counter for Goku would give the team the win, Almost every time except for the times Supes would take Goku out. A great debate on both sides but I have to Give it to Pope and Nighthunder. Great job from Lvenger & GhostRavage . It's seems like the tides are firmly in their favor for votes and they surely deserve it and I thank them for giving me a much better opinion of two characters I used to thoroughly dislike but my support, even if for the losing side, goes to @pope052@nighthunder . Hope to see more good representation of DBZ on the forums, the series deserves it despite the weeaboo trolls.

@cerberus369616: @ghostrider2:

Thanks for both of the votes,

• Lvenger & GhostRavage - 11
• NighThunder & Pope052 - 5

it was kinda annoying how Lvenger was denying the daizenshuu. it was like denying a recipe for a cake just because you never seen that particular cake backed before. or denying that air exist cause you never seen it before. or denying that I got sick once cause you never seen me sick before

@pope052: That Manga Scan At The End... I Just Had To Smile. Cerberus369616: Did You See My Memes?

That's a really bad analogy Superlightning123. I also agree that I think overlooking the Daizenshuu is a flawed argument but he has probable cause for doubting it. I just disagree with it for the same reasons Pope does. A guy forgetting aspects of his writing over the years is understandable when it's something he has been doing for 20+ years and he has had other projects (albeit no where nears as successful) over that span and he clearly reviews the content of his work before starting something new , its not like he didn't include SSJ3 in BoTGs , just forgot about it since it had been several years. Like pope said, the reliability of the Daizenshuu comes from Manga's inherit nature in being primarily if not entirely written by the original authors, generally speaking of course. Part of why I always disliked the Supes v Goku debate being in supes favor was that so many hands in the pot. So many interpretations (colored by the authors having grown up idloizing the character in question) make it hard to pinpoint the characters upper and lower limits. If we did a "As written by their creators" battle it would be a trollop stomp by Goku, but that's no fun. Some people have to remember these debates should be to have fun, not something to get annoyed at. Lvenger did an amazing job of not only being consistent with his showing on a character that has so many, but backed his showings and arguments with fair reasoning, even if people can disagree with said reasoning. There shouldn't be anything "annoying" about it.

@cerberus369616: yeah. I agree. but im one of those people who HATES losing. not helping that goku is my fav. I wont sit back and watch him get lowballed to death

I'm gonna vote Lvenger & GhostRavage

I feel Pope did a better job debating Goku V Supes but ultimately I feel NighThunder was the weak link here. GhostRavage pretty much won the Hulk debate and Lvenger did a good job debating Goku.

Most time consuming debate I've ever read. However, I have to give my vote to Lvenger and GhostRavage.

@pope052: @lvenger: gentlemen, most amazing of debates very cut throat but at the same time subtle and polite. Its a great example of respect even between fans of two of the most flame war inspiring characters..... well done to all of you. Lvenger and Ghostravage have won my vote.

@pope052: :( Don't forget to count my vote.