2v2 Team CaV: Hulk & Superman VS Sentry & Goku (G&L won)

that was long cant wait to see lvs ,great debate so far

@stupid_people: @darkbiscuit: @cardle_grave: @cardle_grave: @raynorj: @jhaigo: @theincrediblesuperhulk8642: @dondave: @wolverine08: @sophia89: @oreoassassin: @neongamewave: @unbreakable_fs4: @vegetto1990: @reaverlation: @hart7668: @ghostravage: @nighthunder: @lvenger: @pope052:

HAS POPE USED ALL OF HIS TRUMP CARDS?

WILL LVENGER MAKE A COMEBACK AGAINST POPE?

WHOS GONNA BE THE VICTOR OF THE TITANIC BATTLE BETWEEN THE SENTRY AND HULK?

WHERE THE HECK IS EVERYONE?

@superlightning123:

Dude, seriously you need to stop posting these as at the rate you're going at can be considered spam and the statements such as "has Goku finally beaten the Man of Steel?" could possibly cause hostility based off of my knowledge on how users react to those and we wouldn't want that in this formal debate. I don't mean to sound harsh, but just stay tuned until you're called out for the voting mate.

Just as a reminder, I'd like to be tagged during voting.

:D

@pope052: fixed it

I've been following this thread since it began and I'm very impressed by the level of debating (and formalism) showcased by all participants! I'm a huge fan of Superman vs Goku, and I've taken it upon myself to create a webcomic of the two teaming up against a greater threat. (I will probably "advertise" on comicvine when it comes online). But enough about myself....

If you could tag me during voting that would be amazing. :)

@superlightning123:

That wasn't the main issue, it's just that you keep posting the same thing over and over again so we can classify it as spam at this rate. Also @scottvstheworld you'll be tagged for the votes no problem.

@pope052: Could you tag me please, I watched the CAV from the start.

Would there be any chance of you switching opponents; if you did that would be cool.

@kingant27: I'm afraid we won't be switching opponents. It's more fair if Hulk tackles Sentry, a foe he's evenly fought before than if he fights Goku, a foe he physically outclasses but severely lacks the speed to tag him consistently enough to win. In contrast, Superman has all the necessary attributes to easily fight Goku, namely in having the necessary speed to consistently tag Goku enough to overpower him. Hulk wouldn't have that luxury in battle. If you want to decide who'd win between Hulk and Goku or Superman or Sentry based on this debate, you'll have to compare each case we've put up for our characters against the other I'm afraid.

@pope052: Awww. I'll wait longer to do it. I usually post that when everyone is gone

Superman cannot defeat goku unless its the Broken versions of superman like Pre crisis or Prime. All other superman versions even though OP, cannot defeat goku and yes i can prove it in a "REASONABLE" debate. BTW sentry and goku stomps. Sentry already proved himself more stronger than WBH (World breaker Hulk) Hulk obviously took over the battle at the end because of plot nothing more. Goku can take out superman with his sheer force of ki striking power and ki blast attacks.

@vegetto1990:

I thought both Lvenger and I had warned you already, right? You need to keep your opinions to yourself otherwise this thread could become derailed with several to blame including you, so as I said wait for the voting to give your statements but until then refrain from posting anything along the lines of that.

@pope052: A voting? Well i don't know how that works. I was tagged into this debate by superlightning123 and so i gave my answer. It was never told to me anything about a vote, please explain what you mean?

@vegetto1990:

It's a Challenge a Viner debate, but that's irrelevant really as you previously posted in this thread so you should have well.. not posted the same type of material again.

@vegetto1990: Oh for the love of... Do you not know what Challenge a Viner threads are? They're supposed to be private debates where two or more debaters argue for certain characters beating another. Much less antagonistic and biased than typical threads, especially given the topic me and Pope are discussing. And other users are not supposed to interfere in the debate. I've told you this before and I'm annoyed I have to tell you again. Voting is done based on the strength of each user's debating skills. If you think Pope debated better than me, fine but I've provided counters for every strength he's made and justified it with logic, evidence and exposing the flaws of DBZ debating. You need to wait until after the debate is finished before commenting please.

@lvenger: please tag me as well when the voting happens.

Much obliged.

good day

@theonetaichou: Will do. You'll be on a long 'guest list' though since it seems a lot of people want to know about this.

@lvenger:

Hmm, by the way I just realized that people asked to be tagged over three months ago so it just goes to show how much we've had to prolong this ;P.

@lvenger: @pope052: Its just one last post thats left right ? Not one last post each?

Great Debate.

Edit: im pretty sure its just one more post for Lv actually. Judging by the last post.

@easternwind:

It's one more post for us all, a conclusive post for that matter.

@pope052: oops. I accidently posted the same thing over and over

Reading an OP it's something way too hard to ask... Today's society doesn't like to read nor follow rules. Im getting this feeling there will be a significant amount of votes based of pure bias instead of judging over the debate. It's sad, but true.

@ghostravage: I read it. Besides, I have to form my "next time on dbz" memes

@lvenger: pope says otherwise. I'm waiting for your epic comeback . You guys are great debaters .

Good to know... I wasn't implying it was you specifically, but most people that flat out ignores it is a CaV and not a regular thread.

This debate will not be forgotten, the arguments presented have been enormously, astronomically and immeasurably awarding as they are amazing!!! I can`t wait for the conclusions and I`m looking forward to the different views, from the different voters.

Tag me in the end, i been stalking this thread for way too long.

@superlightning123 said:

HAS POPE USED ALL OF HIS TRUMP CARDS?

WILL LVENGER MAKE A COMEBACK AGAINST POPE?

WHOS GONNA BE THE VICTOR OF THE TITANIC BATTLE BETWEEN THE SENTRY AND HULK?

WHERE THE HECK IS EVERYONE?

this is funny lol

Tag me in the end

Ah, everyone we apologize for keeping you waiting this long but at least now all four of us have our conclusions completed and ready to post here. However in order to stick to the posting order, we're just waiting on NighThunder to post his first and then everything will fly in from there on out. Stay tuned, as the voting should be open soon enough.

It's going to hard voting considering I've forgotten close to ever word posted on here lol

...well, looks like I'll be reading for a while

@unbreakable_fs4:

Yeah apologies for that, we didn't expect it to go on for this amount of time.

@pope052: No problem. I actually enjoyed the debate :)

So? MAKE IT HAPPEN! LETS GET IT ON!

@stupid_people: @darkbiscuit: @cardle_grave: @cardle_grave: @raynorj: @jhaigo: @theincrediblesuperhulk8642: @dondave: @wolverine08: @sophia89: @oreoassassin: @neongamewave: @unbreakable_fs4: @vegetto1990: @reaverlation: @hart7668: @ghostravage: @nighthunder: @lvenger: @pope052:

WILL THE DEBATERS USE THERE FINAL TRUMP CARDS?

WILL THE AUDIENCE BE ABLE TO SURVIVE THIS MUCH AWESOMENESS?

WHO WILL BE VICTORIOUS?

We got a heads up from NighThunder, he said he'd be able to post by Saturday.

@pope052:

WHERE IS HE?

@superlightning123: Delete the comment or a mod will be called in.Relax and lay off...

@reaverlation:

...

the the

Summery

Aplogis mates for the long wait, it really did have it finished and saved but when i came to upload it, it wasn't on my computer, so i assume that after clicking shut down, i forgot to save it, and it wasn't there. So, ill just start from scratch, apologies for the shortness though, I originally had it longer.

Anywho lets get down to action

Hulks durability vs Sentries physical attacks

After reading your previous counter, ghost, i now realize that without tapping into void or death seed, sentries punches will be hard pressed to seriously affect hulk should he enter world breaker levels, so to this point, hulk has the advantage

Hulks physical attacks vs sentries’ durability

Ah, this is another aspect i feel sentry has a slight disadvantage. While sentry does have the durability to tank a few hits from green-scar hulk, should hulk reach worldd breaker, sentry wouldn't be able to take too many hits without sustaining serious damage. However, this would be sentry’s downfall if it wasn’t for his speed, in-which I will analyze later.

Hulks energy out-put vs sentries’ durability

hulk does indeed have planetary level energy out-put and sentry would be hard-pressed to tank a attack on that level. However, this isn’t to say sentry is without the means to survive or counter attack via his own energy blasts, as-well as his shields.

Hulks energy out-put vs sentries

In this area, im very much certain either hulk has a slight advantage due to the fact his attacks have greater range, or equal. This is due to the fact that both sentry and hulk have planetary level blasts. This also brings me to another point ; It is wrong to say that just because character A has a feat of doing something and character B has a solid statement of said feat, character A does not overpower character B in said aspect. Meaning, just as sentry only has a partial feat as-well as a statement of planet busting power, and hulk has a feat of said power, does not equivalte to hulk being greater in the aspect.

Sentries speed vs hulk

As stated earlier, sentries main saving grace is his speed. Now I realize that ive been touching on this aspect for a while, but it actually is really is one of the more crucial aspects of the fight. Utilizing his speed, sentry is absolutely minimizing hulks windows of opportunities to grab a hold of him and start smashing. Considering sentry is highly motivated to win, he’s not going to be standing there, hitting hulk and letting hulk hit back in return, no, sentry is going to be hitting hulk and reacting and moving to any of hulks hits. While of course it’s a fight, so there is times where hulk will get a few hits in, the few hits he does take wont crucially injure him.

To conclude:

While its definitely a fight that entry will have to work hard to win, he will pull it through via all the things I’ve listed. And sure, if hulk can manage to grab sentry while in world breaker mode and deliver enough hits, sentry would be put down. But via speed and using his entire arsenal, sentry will manage to avoid hulk and put him down through enough planet level blasts before he gets to that level.

@nighthunder:

good.. is that all?

Concluding Post

First of all, i would like to thank the people involved in this CaV, it has been by far my favorite one and i almost pulled everything i've got about this Hulk incarnation here aiming for the hypothetical stomp, which in all honesty i truly believe i did manage to make it look like one, however, that's me, hopefully people will see it that way as well. Anyway, im fairly satisfied with what has been showed here in my part of the debate... I think it's not necessary to express how i feel about the other half since it's pretty obvious the caliber in which both @lvenger and @pope052 delivered their respective points. I would also like to recognize @nighthunder as a fearless person :P... He admitted before starting this CaV, it was going to be his first time using Sentry while i was using my big gun, he didn't have the amount of knowledge some people here in the Vine has about Sentry but still managed to pull some good feats. IMO, that's the first thing you need to have to prove yourself worthy in the Battle Forums, true story.

Special thanks to my man @lvenger, i was looking forward to team up with him for a long time, highly respected debater and friend who coincidentally just gave the best CaV i've had so far, what are the odds right? :P

Now, let's wrap things up once and for all.

Real Concluding Post

Throughout the debate, we've managed to see the different aspects in which this hypothetical fight would be based, say, physical attributes, tactical thinking and overall easy exploitable raw power. By recapitulating this i've come to the following conclusion.

-Physicals

Hulk has a clear and wide edge over Sentry in pretty much every single physical attribute sans speed. By having such a big gap between them in this department the amount of possible scenarios where Sentry could win is astonishingly reduced.

The fact that Hulk's sole toughness has Sentry's strength and striking force totally overpowered already seals the deal about a possible way of Sentry beating Hulk via physicals. If we add up regeneration and the ridiculous durability Hulk posses, say, keep moving forward without vital organs, only strengthens this edge to a nearly irrefutable point. With this said, Sentry's sole advantage, which is speed, loses all its offensive potential since it couldn't be used for a possible speed blitz, turning into a defensive attribute for Sentry to fall on... However, this is easily countered with 2 tactics Hulk has used in the past to deal with "speed", namely, Thunderclaps and his already mentioned calculating brain, seemingly used to tag Silver Surfer twice in 2 different incarnations.

For the sake of addressing just how strong Hulk's thunderclaps are in this incarnation, let's look at them from classic days. Since 68' Hulk thunderclaps have been incredible overpowered, going from decimating structures, affecting people like Hyperion, Thor and other powerhouses to also been compared to nukes. The last one can be seen in the classic issue of Tales to Astonish #67 when he decimated an entire group of tanks by thunderclapping with near-nuclear force...

So, why using this specific feat to represent the point, well... the fact that Sentry's highest toughness/durability/regeneration feat shown so far in this thread is nuke level as far as physicals go. So not only Hulk punches on average are above Sentry's physical durability, but the fact his Thunderclaps are almost on par with them. What makes this a lot deadlier is this is Hulk's strongest incarnation fighting here, so his Thunderclaps are the strongest one ever seen too...

He can almost 1 hit KO Hulk level threats, specially one that gave Thor a good fight, killed Blonsky and created billion tons of force with his punches by creating 8.0, 9.0 and 10.0 earthquakes; with a single Thunderclap thanks to his gamma channeling attributes previously mentioned in this debate, the scan is already posted but i'll showcase it again...

Gallery

So in World War Hulks: Hulk #24 Green Scar gave Rulk the beat down of his life ultimately almost one shoting him with a single thunderclap... This is just an average Thunderclap for the Green Scar, the fact that in Incredible Hulk #634 he thunderclapped Fin Fang Foom hard enough for him to be sent flying at high speed, bust Umar shields and let the Mindless Ones escape. It worths to note, Umar is on par with Dormammu, so her shields are pretty powerful if you know what i mean.

With this tactic Hulk can use area-of-effect attacks with the slightest of efforts and give hell to Sentry and counter his speed, the moment Sentry comes near Hulk, let alone a ridiculously smart one like the Green Scar, he will go down.

That said, those thunderclaps are just a tactic Hulk could easy exploit to counter Sentry's speed, given the fact they are incredibly annoying to most powerhouses in regular basis, let alone Green Scar's, Sentry will DEFINITELY feel them and will be greatly bothered by them if not flat out be seriously damaged by them. The good thing about them is Hulk could instantly counter attack a second later after he thunderclaps, say, quickly leaping towards Sentry and putting his hands on him. His leaping speed was already showed in this thread in my first post against Arma'Cheddon, but for the sake of consistency let's show what he can really do when trying at his best as shown in Incredible Hulk #254 when he reached escape velocity while leaping...

Escape velocity is 25,000 miles per hour which is about 32 times the speed of sound, ergo, Mach32 which is pretty damn fast for a leap. Now, picture Hulk using this leaping speed to reach a target that is flying, seriously numbed and obviously flying below said speed, there's absolutely no doubt he will catch him.

Now that we reached the catching tactic, something i strongly believe will happen in this match, this is why Sentry won't stand a chance once Hulk puts his hands on him. As shown earlier in this thread, Hulk, as weird as it may sound, can and has move his limbs at incredible high speeds, pretty much performing a blitzing tactic, a tactic Sentry wont be able to replicate because he lacks physicals. Anyway, the previously mentioned Marvel Feature #3 shows Hulk moving his limbs so fast it looks he grows 6 arms but there is more proof about this potential... In Incredible Hulk #445 this is visible once again...

At this point, the assumption seems vague as it solely relies on artwork but the irrefutable fact that this ability was mentioned on panel when people like Reed Richards and M.O.D.O.K were using Hulk's strength to shake some samples thousands of times faster than a centrifuge speed of 40,000rpm in Captain America and The Falcon #12...

The feat becomes even cooler when the actual potential of a high-speed centrifuge is noted...

This is self-explanatory... around 30,000 rpm... WAY too much.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugation

So in simple words, once Hulk puts his hands on Sentry, he would be able to deliver >several< punches on him, punches that from the start will damage him a lot, let alone gamma channeled ones. I see no reason to imply Sentry wont go down by this tactic. A simple, classy and smashing tactic.

-Energy Projection

In this i have my quarrels... While Sentry is well known for having energy projection, Sentry doesn't have a single feat to suggest he could take on Green Scar with this ability alone. Not only Hulk shrugged off a visible and solid beam on planetary scale but the fact Sentry's best energy projection feat was stated to be on planetary scale by combining it with Photon's energy projection as well, which subtracts the validity of application on Hulk.

In simple words, Hulk has a better, more solid and greater energy projection resistance feat to counter Sentry's damage output ones.

On the offensive side, Hulk's energy projection also shares the same features as his defensive side... He has a better, more solid and greater feat to overpower Sentry's overall lack of durability feats. He has a VERY visible planet busting feat on panel, there's no contest about it. Now, my biggest problem is the assertion of Sentry somehow surviving seconds against World Breaker Hulk... No durability feats were shown above Nuke level, whereas Hulk hypothetically went from nuke scale to planetary scale in this fight as far as damage output goes. I see no reason to imply Sentry could take a single punch from World Breaker Hulk. Hell, im willing to say no one in this thread could simply "tank" his hits and pull a win over him.

On the passive side, there's not really a counter for it. Sentry would need to work his way through the burst or die trying. Im actually opting for the second choice. That said, the same burst will only help our team so even though our team could pull the win before Hulk reaches World Breaker Hulk state, the prolongation of the fight will only benefit our team.

-Finally

With this 2 areas approached, there isn't anything else Sentry could use to beat Hulk and in both areas he's beaten by Hulk. In my eyes, there's isn't much more to say, this incarnation of Hulk is just too much for Sentry.

By beating Sentry into a pulp, Hulk is more than capable of helping Superman give Goku the most bloody and horrible beat down he will ever experience.

Thank you, hope you guys have fun reading.

~GhostRavage

@ghostravage: ...Um...(clears throat)awesome and terrific conclusion! Sucks this will last longer due to @lvenger taking a break :(...

@reaverlation: Lvenger asked us to post his conclusion for him, we have it in a PM but i'll post it tomorrow, Comicvine is being buggy to me now. And Thank you mate :P

@ghostravage: Oh didn't know.Sucks he won't be here to do it but nonetheless I'm extremely positive his conclusion will be outstanding. And no problem bru :)

For the record, this won’t be a full reply to Pope’s post. If I went into detail countering every one of Pope’s points (of which I had several in mind upon reading his last post) we’d be here forever. However, in writing my conclusion consolidating my arguments and advantages I feel Superman has over Goku, I’ll make reference to a few of Pope’s points that I feel need to be addressed by me.

Strength

As I established very early in the debate, Superman’s physical strength outstrips Goku’s physical strength by a large margin. Your best feat for Goku in his Base form was him flipping Giant Piccolo over which was placed at 40 tons. Add the Super Saiyan multipliers on and Goku’s max strength comes to 1.6 million tons. In contrast, my scan of Superman’s Earth pulling feat with Hal Jordan surpasses that level of strength with ease. If I wanted to, I could have picked other strength feats instead

Like how Superman caught a ship that was 70 miles wide and cushioned its fall.

Or how he casually lifted and flew an aircraft carrier to its destination. Since real aircraft carriers can weigh over 100,000 tons at least, this shows how easily Superman can apply his strength over long distances.

Not to mention that Superman has also lifted a pyramid from the Gobi Desert and flown it to Mars. Whilst a proper weight for any one pyramid is damn near impossible to establish, two specific pyramids, the Great Pyramid of Giza and the Khufu Pyramid have both been estimated as weighing 5 million tons or above. Yet Superman carries one in between 34-140 million miles to Mars for Martian Manhunter’s funeral in Final Crisis: Requiem.

I think that’s all the evidence needed to confirm that physical strength is definitely in Superman’s corner here.

Striking Power

I’m curious as to why it took Superman shattering the fabric of space and time with his blows for you to finally consider that he may hit harder than Goku does. That’s only his second or maybe even third best striking feat. The other two are morals off/bloodlusted so they aren’t pertinent here but even so, the space/time punches is one of the highest striking power feats that Superman has to offer in character. Even so, I still haven’t seen sufficient evidence that outside of the Battle of Gods feat that Goku has the striking power to match Superman in any form lesser than SJJ3. The Battle of Gods feat is the only punch I’ve seen Goku exhibit that does reach the level of Superman’s striking power based on the comparative evidence shown on this debate. No other striking feat from Goku matches up to it and this leads to your reliance on that one feat to substantiate your case when I have a wide range of striking feats Superman can perform without transforming or sun dipping or anything like that.

Your next argument which moves onto Goku’s avoidance relates more to speed and shall be addressed by me in the combat speed and reactions section. But here’s one thing I can say, I’ve shown Superman crack moons with ease as a result of his blows and threaten the moon’s orbit whilst weakened by Kryptonite poisoning. And I might add that none of those punches required any charge up time. You cling to the Shadow Moon showing in the hopes that you can show Superman’s striking power will end up KOing himself but as I’ve pointed out time and again, the speed of the Shadow Moon’s trajectory and the gravity of the situation led to Superman’s own attempt of an IMP to blow it up. The speed of the moon was what clearly KOed Superman in this context. Thus, it is evident that Superman’s overall greater striking prowess in destructive capability and force of his blows on opponents will certainly be sending Goku reeling whenever he connects and believe me, regardless of your counters, I’ve shown just how Superman can connect his punches with Goku. So this rounds off why I think Superman’s striking power surpasses Goku in his ability to deal damage to the Saiyan and give him serious trouble in the fight with his punches.

Durability

In contrast, my durability feats for Superman are all on panel showings that “do exactly what they say on the tin” so to speak. This offers the perfect counter to Goku’s Battle of Gods striking feat and exaggerated energy projection. Superman has tanked planet busting attacks with ease before as seen in my Death of the New Gods planet sandwich scan. And to counteract your scaled up energy projection, Superman’s actual supernova tanking feats are vastly more reliable than your evidence for Goku’s solar system wide energy projection. In both scenarios, a supernova or a real life supernova were cited as part of the feat’s occurrence and thus this allows for logical analysis of what the feat contains and what the upper limits of Superman’s durability are. Additionally, the 50x Keplar Supernova feat was performed whilst Superman was weakened by the Sun Eater’s red solar radiation attacks making it an even more impressive durability feat for Superman. If you want to call it high end, go ahead but it’s no different from what you’ve been doing for Goku. I just have the evidence to support my claims.

But now I come to your attempts to discredit Superman’s durability. To be honest, I find them severely lacking. Not to mention it demonstrates a poor and misunderstood grasp of Superman’s durability. Your point that Superman’s durability differs between being in space and being on planet has no plausible ground to base itself upon. You use outdated scans to try and justify Superman having a different durability in space than he does on Earth. This is certainly incorrect based on the fact that Superman’s durability has never differed based on the environment he’s in. Never in my years of reading Superman comics and debating on the battle forums have I seen this fallacious environmental point you try and use here. This argument is pulled out of thin air to grasp at the strings for Superman’s ability to be harmed by Goku’s energy projection in order for your arguments to have the slightest bit of credence to them. This is a mistaken basis for your argument. And the feats you use are utterly outdated or have a context behind them too. Let me show the true context of these feats so you can see the flaws of your argument. First, the million nuclear explosions blast feat. You fail to grasp the pertinent context that firstly, Superman had already been beaten the hell up by Doomsday and had his arm broken. Compacted by a blast of a million nukes, it’s a wonder he did survive after getting beaten up by Doomsday. Secondly, this was an earlier Superman. One who was stronger than he was Pre DOS but still he didn’t have the feats he had in comparison to his later Pre Flashpoint years. As I pointed out before, Superman’s feats increased throughout the period to the point where he shrugged off nukes, took planets to the face and survived supernovas, all of which I’ve cited thrtoughout this debate. As I’m sure you’ll agree, the later showings supercede older ones and this is where your first scan falls flat. You’ve used an older scan of Superman when later ones have him casually bathing in the sun without any ill effects. Your second scan can be debunked by a point I made earlier. It’s worrying if you didn’t read it or were aware of it but I specifically stated that Superman and Batman deliberately allowed themselves to be put at a disadvantage so they could blinside Captain Marvel and Hawkman and get into The White House. That useful piece of context aka Superman and Batman’s goal in the fight nullifies your attempt to use this showing as evidence of Superman’s different durability on Earth and in space.

Thus I fail to see the appeal of there being no logical reason in Superman’s durability being able to stand up to Goku’s energy projection when in reality, this argument possesses little merit or substance to it in the slightest. The more plausible assertion is that Goku’s energy projection will be unable to pierce Superman’s impressive durability. I’ve proven with concrete evidence and verifiable showings that your counter-argument has no logical standing to be considered seriously in this debate. There is no discrepancy between Superman’s durability in space and on Earth. What’s more, the crux of Superman’s durability advantage in this fight is that I can prove that Superman can tank solar system busting attacks. Contrary to this, you cannot prove beyond any shadow of a reasonable doubt (given the attacks and criticisms that can be made on Goku’s exaggerated and scaled up energy projection feats) that Goku is truly and realistically capable of solar system busting attacks. And even if he were, Superman’s durability is a clear counter to this anyway.

Stamina

Fortunately, this section will be the shortest out of all of my advantages paragraphs. Most of my points have been summarised in my previous post so there isn’t much to say here. Whilst it’s a fair point to note that Goku’s stamina is recharged upon him turning into the individual Super Saiyan forms, it’s equally fair for met to note that Superman is constantly receiving solar rays from the sun that his cells absorb and process to fuel his powers. Not only is this power source much more reliable than Goku’s inner Ki, it’s maintained more efficiently given that Goku maxed himself out fighting Cell in SSJ1, fighting Majiin Vegeta as SSJ2 and especially against Kid Buu as Super Saiyan 3. Yeah Goku maintained the immense drain of the Super Saiyan 3 form for over a minute against Bills but guess what? Superman fought demons in Asgard with Wonder Woman and Thor every day for a thousand years.

Gallery

No matter how you try and spin it, Superman’s stamina and endurance massively outshadows Goku’s by a wide margin. Thus, it’s simply a fantasy proposition for you to assert that Goku can overpower Superman in over a minute with the Super Saiyan 3 form because your evidence does not support that conclusion. He’ll need way longer than that given Superman’s superior strength, striking power and durability complimenting his overall physical advantage. Even if Goku were to overpower Superman, it would take way longer than a minute as Superman does not go down easy. That is more reasonable than the absurd “Super Saiyan 3 can take Superman down in a minute” proposition. Besides, the more powerful Goku becomes, the more strain he puts on himself and his Ki supply in battle. Even with the Super Saiyan power ups, he’s only as good as a limited rechargeable battery with 3 charges. In contrast, Superman’s stamina is like a Duracel battery. He’ll keep going and going throughout the fight. The more stamina Goku uses, the greater the advantage Superman gains over Goku with his greater stamina and endurance.

Versatility

Now let’s look at Goku’s so called versatility edge

• · Ki Sensing – Whilst I don’t see its relevance in this fight for the most part, I’ve already shown how attuned Superman’s senses and hearing are in comparison to Goku’s. He can perceive every facet of the visual spectrum, spot mass riots on Earth from the moon and pinpoint one voice out of the entire world’s cacophony of noise. That’s easily the match of Goku’s specific Ki Sensing. So both combatants will be able to keep track of each other in this fight.
• · Chi Shout – Ah yes an invaluable ability of Goku’s in the Saiyan Saga. And the Frieza Saga. And the Android Saga. And the Cell Games Saga. And the Buu Saga. Oh wait he only ever used that ability once. You’re reaching a great deal here to justify Goku using this ability when it was only utilised once and Goku had to position this move and time it just right. Superman’s heat vision will be much faster than Nappa’s energy beam in speed and the fact he doesn’t have to do the usual DBZ charge up time to perform it. Besides, as I said, using a one time feat in your versatility case is not a pertinent example. All of your and my other versatility feats have been performed more than once by Goku and Superman. But outside of the Saiyan Saga, Goku has never used the Chi Shout and thus it can be discounted from your versatility argument.
• · Rapid Fire Energy Volley – Again you miss the blatant point about Superman’s vastly superior durability in following the point that Superman is somehow going to be fazed by this useless attack. There were way more energy projection durability feats I could have used instead where Superman tanks the best energy blasts of DC’s best energy projections like Kyle Rayner or Neutron. Why would rapid blasts that never put the target down faze someone with superior durability to any DBZ character? Superman will just avoid the volley or shrug it off like it’s nothing. Only Goku’s concentrated energy blasts stand a chance of hurting or putting Superman down.
• · Kaioken – Similarly void as well. Superman’s feats enable him to easily match any of the Super Saiyan forms at his best. How would the Kaioken, which only boosts Goku’s stats by a factor of 20 times their maximum, be any challenge for Superman in the slightest? The answer is that it wouldn’t be.
• · Explosive Waves – Nice to see Goku can get out of Superman’s freeze breath but all Superman needs to do is incapacitate Goku in the first place thus allowing him to set up a powerful attack on Goku thanks to a free and open opportunity provided by his frost breath.
• · Instant Transmission – As I said, this is the best trick Goku has that can avoid Superman’s attacks. But as I noted before, it’s easily countered in the form of Superman’s phasing that renders him intangible to all physical and energy based attacks.

But I need a much longer paragraph to debunk your faulty telekinesis point. If you’re going to try and pick me up on context, I’d recommend you don’t do it on my second favourite Superman story Pope. It’s something I happen to know fairly well. Let’s see the context you blatantly ignore which undermines your argument.

As I mentioned before, Superman is only incapacitated telekinetically when Manchester Black squeezes his capillaries with his telekinesis. This requires a level of technical skill and control that you have no shred of evidence to show that Goku can perform on this level of telekinetic control. Pure telekinesis has no serious effect on Superman in the slightest as my scan of Manchester Black provided earlier showed. Can Frieza show a technical level of telekinesis on Black’s level? Does Goku have this level of precision with his telekinesis? The answer is obviously no so I don’t see how you’ve gone so very horribly wrong in your misinterpretation of this feat. Only telekinetic precision ever showed signs of stopping Superman and your telekinetic feats provided do not come anywhere near proving that Goku has the telekinetic precision to restrain Superman. There’s also the fact that Black is extremely ruthless and amoral whereas Goku would never dream of doing what Black did to Superman in character. Thus, Goku’s simple telekinetic shoves are not enough to do more than simply faze Superman at best. The proof that Superman has been restrained by telekinesis can actually be undermined by the fact that Superman will be taking the fight to Goku up close and personal so this minimises the likelihood that Goku will get the chance and concentration to restrain Superman with his mind. Additionally, Superman’s speed and intangibility could counter Goku’s telekinesis as well.

Now let’s contrast this with Superman’s versatility

• · Speed blitzing to match Goku’s speed blitzing? Check.
• · Heat Vision to either blast Goku with a widespread energy radius or target Goku with pinpoint and expert marksmanship from Superman to boot?
• · Freeze Breath to temporarily incapacitate Goku setting up Superman for a free and powerful attack against Goku? Check.
• · Thunder Claps to rock Goku’s world with powerful shockwaves? Check.
• · Whirlwinds to disorientate Goku and possibly, albeit unlikely, asphyxiate him with the right timing? Check.
• · The devastating Super Combo which combines Superman’s physical might, impressive speed and range of energy projection powers into one mighty combo dealing serious damage to Goku? Check (and Goku WILL be tagged by it because it involves Superman’s speed as well. That alone makes it vastly superior to the pitiful Kaioken in comparison.)
• · Phasing to cancel out Goku’s physical and energy projection attacks by making Superman intangible? Check.

So that wraps up my versatility section. And I believe it’s evident that Superman possesses a much more practical and likely to work set of abilities that he can utilise against Goku. As my Ultraman scan illustrated, Superman has spent years fighting a range of foes time and time again forcing himself to utilise his powers in new and innovative ways. This resourcefulness and experience with his powers trumps Goku’s Ki abilities based on how practical Superman can use them in combat against Goku.

Combat Speed and Reactions

Last of all, we come to the combat speed and reactions section. It’s necessary for me to finally confirm the reality to my opponent that Superman is more than fast enough to tag Goku. Although several speed feats are solid showings for Goku, I’m not at all sold on Goku dodging energy blasts. You’ve only used the statements “flash of light” or something to that effect to make out that Goku has dodged light speed attacks and by that logic, this makes him FTL in combat. Well thanks to the Superman thread that I frequent for his feats works again, by this very same logic, I can use these scans below

Gallery

to justify the conclusion that Superman is also FTL in combat. We see him reacting to Kryptonite lasers, outracing an energy beam to its target and even outmanoeuvring Darkseid’s Omega Beams. And I could use the logic that lasers=light speed or that Darkseid’s origin bio from the mid 2000s states his Omega Beams are rays of light to confirm that Superman outraced light speed energy beams.

Don’t you see the abject flaws in using the energy projection logic to come to faulty conclusions about Goku’s combat speed? If I were to use the same logic for Superman, I could come out with him easily possessing equal speed to Goku’s in combat by simple virtue of him dodging or outracing laser/energy beams.Most of your other case is based on arguments I’ve already dealt with at length in this debate already. Only your reliable feats do show that Goku does have some indication he may be faster than Superman and if not that, then he at least uses his speed in combat more efficiently than Superman does.

Having said that, it’s time I address my response to how Superman can definitely handle Goku’s speed. As I introduced earlier in the debate, Superman can speed up his senses and perceptions to view FTL beings like the Flash as if the world around him is in slow motion. He’s also spotted Swamp Thing’s astral form with the nifty little caption provided below that exemplifies Superman’s sped up perceptions.

This enables him to nullify the speed edge Goku has over Superman as his senses enable him to process the world and information at a much faster rate. This is why I introduced the Jay Garrick scan into the mix. Alone, it wouldn’t have as much validity. But added to my other scans that demonstrate Superman matching up to Jay, it shows Superman’s capability to operate at near, if not light speeds. Jay can see the world at a faster rate than most people and so can Superman. Jay can move so fast that the world is seemingly moving in slow motion and so can Superman. Jay can strategise in nanoseconds and Superman has 3 nanosecond feats to his name. See where I’m going with this?

Oh and you’ve misunderstood the scan with Jay analysing Zoom’s power source. That’s not Professor Zoom Jay's talking about by the way, it’s Hunter Zolomon. There are two different Zooms. The original was Professor Zoom aka Eobard Thawne from the 25th Century. Thawne’s powers come from The Reverse Speed Force, not from time manipulation. The other Zoom is Hunter Zolomon, a cop who knew Wally West and was injured in a critical accident. He got his powers from The Cosmic Treadmill and gained the ability to manipulate time. Superman tagged the original Zoom aka Eobard Thawne in combat and this is the guy who is Barry Allen’s equal. The latter Zoom is insanely fast and managed to fight evenly with an amped Wally West. So it would be a miracle if Superman, let alone Goku could match up to the second Zoom at all in speed. Apologies for not making the distinction clearer, I was using the example of Jay figuring out the second Zoom’s speed powers to demonstrate that he knows a thing or two about speed in the first place.

And that demonstrates just how fast Superman can react in comparison to Goku. Is Goku faster? Perhaps but Superman has tagged Wonder Woman, who in her combat training and god given speed and reactions can be compared to Goku for the purposes of this debate in relation to Superman’s ability to tag combat trained speedsters. And if your point is that Goku is too fast for Superman, I’ve demonstrated that he can tag a being equal to Barry Allen in speed. Thus, this reinforces my other points that Superman has the necessary speed, reactions and perceptions to keep track of and react to Goku with ease. Your evidence may put Goku above Superman in speed and reactions like Wonder Woman but you do not prove beyond any reasonable doubt that Superman cannot react to Goku based on my arguments and evidence.

Final Conclusion

That sums up my conclusion now. Superman’s physical superiority in strength, striking power, durability and stamina coupled with a much wider and more potent versatility in how he uses his powers in addition to having the necessary combat speed and reactions to tag Goku makes him the more powerful character here and having all the tactics and edges needed to defeat Goku. And these advantages are supported by sound logical arguments reinforced by verifiable evidence of the extent of each of Superman’s abilities. So I stand by my position that the empirical nature of my arguments make for a more reliable case than the speculative, uncertain and slightly exaggerated nature present in some parts of Goku’s feats. Funnily enough, there is a scan which comes to mind that encapsulates my thoughts on why Superman beats Goku.

In short, Superman can stand up to the best of what Goku can throw at him and take it on the chin. The same cannot be said for Goku's ability to endure what Superman can dish out in spades. And this is the crux of why I think Superman wins for the most part over Goku. Your move @pope052