2v2 CaV: Negi Springfield (DJH) and Hao Asakura (Maestromage) vs Mewtwo (Gilgamesh) and Jio Freed (DW)

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darthjhawk

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#1  Edited By darthjhawk  Moderator

Challenge-A-Viner: A Royal Banquet

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The pinnacles of their universe... those who stand at the top...these four combatants be they kings, royals, or simply the pinnacle of their pantheon will decide each other's fate. Maestro, Gil, Gear and I bring to you a debate of epic proportions using characters not often talked about yet incredibly powerful. We hope you enjoy this as much as we will.

Battle Theme: They Who Will Inherit The Earth:

Rules & Conditions:

  • All combatants are at their peaks unless otherwise specified
  • Performing at their best conditions, primed to win
  • Otherwise in-character
  • Manga/Anime showings
  • Hao with Spirit of Fire, Composite Mewtwo, Composite Negi, BOS Jio
  • No Prior Knowledge, Random Encounter, start on opposite sides of the battlefield
  • Victory via Death, KO, or Incapacitation, No BFR

Battleground:

Earth-sized planet inside a galaxy like ours, with no other people on it except for the fighters. Main Earth will be reformed and reset 5 seconds after destruction

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For the Voters:

  • This is a CAV we ask that you please refrain from posting your opinion on who would win until it is done. Normal/funny comments are fine though.
  • If there is something that you feel really needs to be said, please PM any of the four of us.
  • Ask to be tagged if you wished to be tagged for voting.
  • Don't vote on who you think is more powerful, but on who had the better argument for their rep.
  • When giving your vote, if you could please give an explanation on why you think the person won.
  • That's all thanks for reading!
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darthjhawk

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Laufnyr

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damn. Taep

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pics

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taep

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gdara

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TAEP

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Eazy_Pezy

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Mewtwo CaV

TaepūüćŅ

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BasaraYuuto

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Taep

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Mike_Strike10

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TAEP.

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MirioTogAta

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Ohoh! Two of my favorite MCs, Negi Springfield & Jio Freed !

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TAEP / T4V (please do not let this CaV die)

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Nixtollo

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Woahhhhh a Negi CaV!

TAEP

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Flameburn146

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TAEP

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InfiniteMass

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#13  Edited By InfiniteMass

TAEP

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Sauce_God31

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GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps

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Opener: The Very Best Like No Thing Ever Was

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How does one define the term "power"? For some, it can be seen as a sort of role that must be filled, for others a status that can only be achieved by the best of the best, or maybe for selective individuals, it can refer to an abstract concept deep within all living beings' souls. In the case of Dr Fuji of Cinnabar Island, his ideal of power seems to fall well under the 2nd category, and that desire ultimate led to creating the being that, for over a decade, stood tall as one of, if not the most dominant being in all of Pokémon.

Probably unsurprisingly then that over the years, Mewtwo has become one of the most iconic Pocket Monsters to grace the franchise, but you would think one of the most popular & powerful beings in the highest-grossing franchise of all time would have flooded the discussion forums. For what feels like the longest time, it feels like no one has a good grasp on where Pokémon in general stands. Granted, a part of that is just how varied Pokémon is as a verse, from regular humans to eldritch gods, but the legendaries, in particular, I've seen thrown around all over the place. So whilst I'm at it, might as well throw my hat into the ring and show where I see this... weird humanoid cat thing, is at, something I've been wanted to do for a good long while now.

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A Precedent of Power:

Now then, there's a lot I want to talk about when it comes to Mewtwo, and we need to start somewhere, so let's begin with some ground rules to understanding Mewtwo's fullest potential. With this in mind, part of the reason that makes Mewtwo such a powerful adversary is rooted in its origins.

Pokémon X & Y
Pokémon X & Y

To make a long story short, Mewtwo is one of Pokémon's few man-made creatures, built upon the DNA of the New Species Pokémon, Mew. Of course, being born from such a being has its perks, as whilst Mew is generally speaking pretty passive & playful, it's said multiple times throughout multiple games to have the genetics of every Pokémon that ever existed, with the only exceptions being the more cosmic entities (e.g. The Creation Trio, Arceus, Deoxys etc.) or other man-made Pokémon such as Magearna, effectively making Mew the Pocket Monsters equivalent to an Adam or Eve, crazy as that is to say.

What this means is that all of the destructive power & versatility that comes from nearly 1000 species can all be traced back to Mew, making it one of the most powerful beings in the Pokémon world, and Mewtwo having that same DNA, as well as being capable of battling with it on equal footing, means that Mewtwo should be capable of the same. We'll talk about the versatility aspect in due time, but in terms of raw power, this means quite a lot.

Pokémon Go & Pokémon Emerald respectively

Everything from the clash between Kyogre & Groudon, which threatened to destroy all of the Hoenn region as a side-effect, to the legend of Regigigas pulling the continents around with nothing but a rope (note the myths and Legends in Pokémon have always been confirmed to be true 99% of the time) and anything in-between. All of these incredible feats can all be traced back to what Mew gave them all those millennia ago, which in-tern means that it, and Mewtwo by extension, should be capable of performing similar feats.

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And all of this would be crazy enough, but Mewtwo also has even greater levels of power that it can achieve through 3 different forms of evolution. The first two are one of the few Pokémon capable of Mega Evolving without the need for a trainer nor a Mega Stone, gaining access to either Mega Mewtwo X or Mega Mewtwo Y. The former lets Mewtwo augment its physicals through its psychic prowess, greatly enhancing its physical abilities to the level of its psychokinesis (more on that in due time), whilst the latter bumps said psychokinesis up to a whole new level.

Pokémon the Movie: Genesect and the Legend Awakened
Pokémon the Movie: Genesect and the Legend Awakened

In terms of quantifying the boost, we can do that fairly easily, so whilst we're here, now seems like a good a time as any to go over Mewtwo's speed, and for that, we turn to the 16th movie and its various encounters with the mob of Genesect, with Mewtwo dodging a bunch of Techno Blasts after they had been fired. A simple showing, but now the big question remains: Are these beams quantifiable?

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To answer that question, we look at the in-game description of Techno Blast to find that Techno Blast is described as a beam of light. A simple description, but one that obviously isn't enough to justify it truly being light speed on it's own, given it's inherent vagueness. However, in the context of how attacks in Pokémon are described, this minimalistic approach is in actuality the greatest form of proof one could ask for.

When the Pokémon games describe the properties of different beams, usually there's always a distinction between "normal" light and light with added properties. This can be seen in a variety of different moves, from Psybeam, to Signal Beam to Flash Cannon & beyond. See how with every description, there's always this asterisk that comes with it being a supposed beam of light, wether it be Light Energy, a peculiar ray or a sinister beam of light. In contrast, Techno Blast, as well as moves such as Solar Beam (which may I also add is an attack based around absorbing energy directly from the sun) don't have such asterisks, which, given all of what we have talked about, means that the lack of specification is ironically exactly what makes Techno Blast light speed in the first place, solidly putting Mewtwo on the level of the fastest thing humanity has ever known.

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And when things go Mega, we enter a whole new dimension of speed, with Mewtwo Y being capable of blocking the same Techno Blasts from dozens of meters away, seeing it move in slow-motion long after it had been fired. If base Mewtwo's feat solidifies it at light speed, Mega Mewtwo Y is well into the FTL range, as well as being an excellent showcase of the volume of difference the power of Mega Evolution provides to an individual Pokémon.

In regards for the other super form, here is where we step away from the mainline games & anime, and veer our attention over to Pokkén Tournament to discuss Shadow Mewtwo. In the story of Pokkén, Trainers & Pokémon are able to harness Gaia energy (a special source of power exclusive to the game's Ferrum region) in order to gain access to Synergy Power, which intern lets them use techniques such as Synergy Bursts, a power boost akin to what Mega Evolution does (hell, Pokémon who have Mega Evolutions transform into that state when using Synergy Bursts, so they should be at least comparable), as well as gain access to Full Bursts. Cause you can't have a fighting game without an over the top super moves

As explained by Anne, by merging with the Dark Synergy Stone, in a similar vein to how it's one of the few Pokémon able to Mega Evolve by itself, Shadow Mewtwo is capable of using this same Synergy Burst without any outside assistance, gaining access to it's Shadow Mewtwo X form.

Pokkén Tournament
Pokkén Tournament

And what all this leads to is that on top of all the boosts in power Gaia gives, Shadow Mewtwo X's Full Burst gives him a move called Dark Nova that...I'm not elaborating on out of principal because for Arceus' sake, look at it. No way I can write anything noteworthy in length about the evil Bijuu Bomb of doom.

However, what I will elaborate on is the domino effect that both this form & the rest of Mewtwo's scaling has on the rest of it's capabilities. We'll talk about all of Mewtwo's other abilities in due time, but suffice to say that whilst Mewtwo hasn't directly shown this level of power for every single ability it ever used, given the fact that he so consistently operates on this continental+ scale from so many different angles, wether they be physically, genetically or psychically, should show that pretty much anything that Mewtwo can accomplish would operate on at the very least, similar tiers to what it's already shown to be capable of.

One last thing I do want to mention before we get into Mewtwo's toolkit is the nature of how Mewtwo from different mediums stack up to each other. As is probably pretty clear even at this stage in the game, there have been a lot of different versions of Mewtwo, from the games, anime, TCG, broadway musicals etc., which befits the question of "should we compare them in any meaningful way", and in my eyes, the answer to that question is a resounding no.

Whilst they do share characteristics via their origins, general toolkits and the like, given how the games never directly reference other mediums, and vice versa (the most we get is characters originating in one mediums appearing in another, but those can easily be explained by them being that world's version of them), it's safe to treat every medium as it's own serpeate universe, and in tern, each Mewtwo being it's own separate being.

Pokémon Black & White
Pokémon Black & White

The concept of alternate worlds/timelines is even directly referenced in the games through mechanics such as Gen 5's Entralink, so it's not as if the very concept is new to the world of Pocket Monsters. Plus, even if we take the alternate worlds shtick out of the picture, there have been multiple times throughout the Pokémon series that show that different versions of the same species have wildly different power levels. We can even see that when comparing the Mewtwo from the 1st movie to how the 16th movie operates, considering that one can Mega Evolve and the other can't, even when the former one returns in Pokémon Journeys.

So to sum it up, don't worry about different mediums portrayal of power levels, they're all different characters anyway.

Master of the Mystical:

So we've discussed the power & speed of Mewtwo, all of which is well & good, but now we get into the part that makes Mewtwo really shine. It's versatility. I wont be going over every single thing Mewtwo can do, since there's over 100 different techniques that it can use and we don't have all day, but rest assured in my confidence that no one in this debate has the variety that Mewtwo has. But for the sake of transparency, I'll post the full list of every technique Mewtwo can learn here.

First from Mewtwo Returns, Latter Two from Mewtwo Strikes Back

Being a psychic type Pokémon, it feels only natural that we start off with Mewtwo's telepathic & telekinetic abilities. In terms of what he can accomplish with it, there's nothing too out of the ordinary, mostly just your standard mind control/reading, ragdolling, erasing memories, the usual bells and whistles that come with trade. Nothing fancy, but given the sheer power at Mewtwo's fingertips, sometimes simple is best. But that's just the tip of the iceberg of what it can really do. You name a non-super specific hax ability & there's a very high chance Mewtwo can pull it off within it's moveset, with a couple examples being:

  1. Power Copying via Mimic. (Diamond & Pearl Episode 14)
  2. Self-Healing with Recover. (Origins Episode 4)
  3. Reflect projectiles back to sender. (Mewtwo Strikes Back)
  4. Create Double Team clones. (XY Episode 34)
  5. Manipulate Gravity. (Adventures Chapter 369)
  6. Use deadly toxins. (Black & White episode 83)
  7. Basically every element under the sun that'd take too long to post GIFs of lmao.

There really isn't anything Mewtwo can't do, and whilst the scans I show have a variety of different Pokémon performing said moves, in practice there shouldn't be any differences between what Mewtwo does and they do, and if anything they'd be even stronger due to Mewtwo's place in this verse.

If I had to put stock into one part of Mewtwo's kit though, it'd be, of all things, his ability to manipulate both itself and oppnnents' physical capabilities. In the more traditional sense of the phrase, Mewtwo has shown to be able to enhance it's stats in a variety of ways, wether it be speed via Agility, physicality through Bulk Up or even it's energy projections/durability with Calm Mind. Simple enhancements, but much like with Mega Evolution, there's an easy form of quantification to all of these buffs.

Pokémon Sun & Moon Episode 63: Pushing The Fiery Envolope!
Pokémon Sun & Moon Episode 63: Pushing The Fiery Envolope!

To use Bulk Up as the primary example, it let the Professer Kukui's Incineroar completely overpower Ash's Torracat, cancelling it's momentum and KOing it on the spot. In contrast, before using Bulk Up, Torracat was strong enough to clash with Incineroar and even slightly injure it.

So you add on all of these buffs on top of Mega Evolution & Gaia Energy and you get one crazy Pokémon, no? Well, yes, but the rabbit hole goes even deeper than that, as with techniques such as the aptly named Power Swap, Guard Swap & Speed Swap, Mewtwo is capable of even manipulating the statistics of other fighters, swaping their capabilities with it's own. So even with all that I've posted, if you still feel that you are stronger, faster, or what have you, then your boon is now Mewtwo's gain as it promptly steals it right back in it's favour.

What's even more important to remember is the 2v2 aspect of this debate, meaning that with all these buffs, nothing's stopping Mewtwo from setting up, using any of the Swap moves or other moves like Baton Pass to put the buffs over to Jio Freed, then simply reapply them, and then just like that, both of our characters have some crazy strong amps to share.

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As I mentioned earlier, I haven't covered everything and anything Mewtwo can do, but I think at this point I believe I set a president for both what it's capable of, as well as the how the debate is going to go. Whilst I don't know too much about every other character here, it's safe to say that this isn't a battle that'll be won through fisticuffs, and instead will be much more in line with the toolkits we all have and how they interact with each other. In this front, Mewtwo is not only capable of holding his own, but whose nigh-infinite toolkit means that you need some serious trump cards to get the jump on it. Looking forwar dto how the Ultimate Lifeform will be tested in this bout.

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GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps

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defiant_will

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Awesome, TAEP

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Mike_Strike10

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deactivated-62456d8e79a71

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taep, as a Pokemon fan this was a pleasure to read.

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MirioTogAta

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Great opener! Can't wait to see the others!

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InfiniteMass

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BasaraYuuto

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Is this still ongoing? Who's next?