2v2 CaV: Darthjhawk & Maestromage vs Gilgamesh & TheVivas

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Darthjhawk

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Challenge-A-Viner: 2v2 Duel to the Death

Team One: Peerless Swordsmen

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Team Two: Those who Defy Fate

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Match Theme: Duel of the Fates:

Character & Match Rules:

  • Ichigo is composite up to Fullbring Bankai. Dangai & EOS are excluded.
  • Alibaba is EOS.
  • Sasuke is EMS.
  • Yusuke is EOS
  • Composite manga/anime feats
  • Otherwise, Combatants are in-character, fighting to the best of their ability
  • Fully determined to win, and going all out.
  • Combatants are unaffected by Namek's gravity
  • Start equal distance away 1000 yards apart from each other

Battlefield: Namek

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For the Voters:

  • This is an official CaV debate, only Maestro, Gilgamesh, Vivas and I are debating.
  • If you want to vote at the end of the debate say "T4V, TAEP, etc"
  • Please do not derail the match with unnecessary and disrespectful comments
  • Vote either for whom debated better, or who convinced you on the outcome, basically just don't vote solely based on who you think would win this matchup
  • Whatever the case, make sure to be civil about it, there's no reason to get upset over fiction.
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defiant_will

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T4v

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FaradaySloth

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TAEP but not T4V since I never live up to that promise.

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ourmanuel

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TAEP

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GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps

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TheVivas

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Cool. Tag.

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HitTheAssasin

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T4V.

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TAEP.

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Combatants are unaffected by Namek's gravity

Ooh, they get to float the whole time? Cool beans! ;)

T4V!

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#13  Edited By Darthjhawk

@maestromage@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps@thevivas: let's do this boys

The Dark Moon Stroke: Ichigo Kurosaki

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Character Rundown: The Number One

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The RundownIchigo Kurosaki
Height181 cms
Weight66 kgs
Powers & Abilities
  • Expert Armed & Unarmed Combatant
  • Superhuman Physical Characteristics
  • Immense Spiritual Pressure & Power
Zanpakuto/Bankai
  • Zangetsu/Tensa Zangetsu

The Dark Moon Stroke Chapter I: Crafting a Foundation for Ichigo

Before I get down to it, I believe I should take some time and create a basis for Ichigo to stand on, mainly in terms of general portrayal and context. The version(s)of Ichigo that I will generally focus on are both the one above and his (arguably) third most power iteration, The Vasto Lorde/Zangetsu.

Fullbring + Soul Reaper Powers:

In understanding Ichigo's Fullbring/Soul Reaper state, I need to summarize the Fullbringer story arc of the Bleach Manga. At the beginning of this arc, Ichigo was without his powers and he worked throughout the story to restore them, by way of Fullbring. When he was fully restored to his power, he was jumpstarted with the spiritual energy of every captain and lieutenant (Ch.461). Along with restoring and increasing his general power level, it was even noted that combining his powers with his Fullbring increased his basic physical parameters exponentially:

Chapter 461: Come Around Our Turn
Chapter 461: Come Around Our Turn

Which is impressive considering that greatly inferior versions in (and I mean several magnitudes weaker)of Ichigo operate at baseline quad Mach speeds. Like here Ichigo can react to the extension and retraction of Gin' Bankai (Ch. 400): Kamishini no Yari. He is even able to reach Gin slightly before the blade retracts fully. Why is this important? Because Gin's Bankai travels 500 times faster than sound. This is even more important when Ichigo can react and counter against Gin's using Buto and Buto Renjin with his Bankai which effectively doubles that Mach 500 speed of the extension and retraction.

Ichigo scales several times above this speed now, especially in Bankai which is at least a 5x increase in overall power and speed (Ch. 120). This is in terms of power as well, as Ichigo on the verge of losing his powers could launch, withstand, and create massive blasts akin to nuclear explosions:

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As such this is consistent when regaining his powers, a casual Getsuga could disperse a heavy rainstorm and a massive (at least 24 KM) storm cloud:

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As well as the mere side effect of releasing his Bankai in this form completely obliterates a city-sized dimension (Ch. 464/75). Making this version of Ichigo highly impressive as a baseline. But as I stated earlier, this is one of two main versions I wanted to focus on. The other and rather infamous version below is even more powerful.

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Vasto Lorde/Zangetsu/Hollow Ichigo:

To put into perspective just how powerful the Vasto Lorde iteration is, one would have to understand the lore behind the Espada, especially the top four.

So... let's take some time to talk about superstructures in Bleach. They are somewhat tedious to work with and understand, but a lot of Bleach scaling and quantifiably relies on the superstructures and worlds. For this debate, I'll be working on and with the general size of the Las Noches:

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Las Noches is extremely large, enough so that it was established by mangaka Tite Kubo through former Espada Neliel Tu that it would take a three-day walk from random spot along the outside to reach the main gate. (Ch.248) Which is further supported through the events surrounding the structure. Most notably being that even from a large distance away, the structure is so massive it looks close to Ichigo, Chad, and Uryu, and even when running for a significant amount of time; until exhaustion, they still don't believe they are any closer. (Ch.244-245) Ichigo even questions it being a mirage, and he has some fairly decent endurance by now as he could run on a spiritual power draining device for days on end. So as we can tell, Las Noches is massive, likely the size of an island at least.

Now, why does this become important to the Espada? Or more importantly Ichigo himself? Mainly due to this simple fact:

Chapter 345: The Sloth
Chapter 345: The Sloth

Imagine just the releasing of one's power being enough to destroy the entirety of that structure. And this is kept consistent by Ulquiorra when choosing to release; left the structure and broke the canopy just to do so, out of deference to this rule. Even Grimmjow's Gran Rey Cero (which is forbidden for also being able to destroy LN) distorted the space of Hueco Mundo far away from the main structure even after being countered by Ichigo. (Ch.282).

This all comes to a head when Ulquiorra unveils his most powerful form, The Segunda Etapa:

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So not only do we have the previous indication of power of the Espada, but Ulquiorra's power was so great that the only comparison other characters could come up with was akin to feeling an ocean pressing down upon them from the sky (Ch. 348). This is compounded upon by Ulquiorra's greatest showing of power. The Lanza Del Relampago:

Chapter 351: The Lust 5
Chapter 351: The Lust 5

An extremely massive attack, that not only dwarfs the entire structure of Las Noches but also destroys multiple mountainous structures upon detonation. In an even more impressive depiction of power, Ulquiorra is noted to be able to constantly summon and use this attack without any significant drain to his energy. Now how does this version of Ichigo compare to him?

Chapter 351: The Lust 5
Chapter 351: The Lust 5

He completely dominates him, not only does he completely bypass his reaction time (even enhanced by his senses), but goes on to palm, overpower, crush, and ignore the output of Lanza Del Relampago as if it was nothing to him, and even puts him down with one slash of his sword. This is without mentioning that Ichigo's energy projection far surpasses Ulquiorra's own as well.

Seeing as how a casual Cero from Ichigo was enough to overpower and completely squash a Cero Oscuras from Ulquiorra (Ch.350) when Ulquiorra's previous form destroyed nearly half the dome alone. Later on, Ichigo shows impressive output again when he aims to kill Ulquiorra, shattering the area above the canopy down into the main dome of Las Noches (Ch.351-2).

Suffice it to say, this should demonstrate that Ichigo is incredibly powerful. And he will gain even more expansion as we get further and further into this discussion.

The Dark Moon Stroke Chapter II: Engaging the Debate

Now that we have a general idea of Ichigo's power, I want to take some time to analyze how he uses said power.

Culmination of Versatility I: Spiritual Attacks and Consistent Full Power

Something important in Bleach that we have come to know is that one's spiritual power is directly correlated and tied to all of their superhuman physical parameters and abilities. As explained here, spiritual beings like Soul Reapers (in this case Ichigo) possess and utilize that power in all aspects of battle, even down to strength, durability, and movement; as directly stated by Kisuke Urahara:

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This has been consistent throughout the series and means that Ichigo is fighting at this level as a casual baseline at all times. His attacks like Getsuga Tensho draw out and coalesce even more of the power into a single point, akin to Goku's Kamehameha in Dragon Ball. Unlike Goku however, Ichigo can wrap himself and his blade in that power, dramatically increasing his output, even more, making his attacks that much deadlier.

In addition, Ichigo's attacks become incredibly hard to tank. Due to being a Soul Reaper and Quincy, Ichigo not only attacks the physical body but also the spiritual body. On a basic level, Soul Reapers can harm souls and Quincies can destroy souls with their attacks. Ichigo is no different:

Chapter 36:They Died for Vengeance
Chapter 36:They Died for Vengeance

The most important thing to note here is that it will be extremely dangerous for anyone to try and tank Ichigo's attacks. As Ichigo's sword is a Zanpakuto or the weapon of a Soul Reaper along with Hollow and Quincy Powers. So not only do Ichigo's main attacks have a piercing component, they also have an energy/heat component, as well as the soul. Which as far as I know of these series, spiritual power gained from connecting with the world around them is a key component in every power system here. Ichigo being able to affect that is a massive boon here. As it can potentially afford him means to disrupt attacks and damage their sources of powers, or at least his opponent's ability to control them.

Culmination of Physicality I: High-Pressure Tactics

Something slightly new I've been trying; where I show a feat I like that demonstrates how effective Ichigo can be with his arsenal. For this instance, I'll be referencing Ichigo's second battle with Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
Chapter 231-232

Unveiling his recently acquired control over Hollowfication; Ichigo uses a combination of his speed, strength, and Getsuga to pressure Grimmjow; (an opponent who demolished him in their previous encounter) and grievously injure him.

  • We first see him use his speed in an attempt to blitz Grimmjow, who can only barely react, while at the same time charging his blade with Getsuga
  • Next while still in blade lock, Ichigo releases the explosion of Getsuga, bypassing the initial crescent shape on release, thereby negating Grimmjow's reaction time.
  • Then once the smoke clears, Ichigo sends a casual Getsuga which overpowers Grimmjow still, and while he is pressured by that...
  • Ichigo uses his speed to get behind him and then launch another blast at point-blank range.

These high-pressure tactics keep Grimmjow on the back foot the entire time until Ichigo's mask breaks. They circumvent his lack of a huge arsenal, by forcing his opponent on the defensive and keeping them from being able to fully analyze or break down his powers. This situation was a bit different for Ichigo given his lack of control at the time, but the tactics are consistent as he also demonstrated such pressure strategies when battling:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5
  • Scan 1-2: With Ulquiorra, he leads with the same tactic as he did in the above scans with Grimjoww, forcing Ulq back in strength, and then we he dodges releases a large blast of Getsuga in an attempt to hit him. (Chapter 344)
  • Scan 3-4: With Aizen, right after being hit by Yamamoto's suicide attack, Ichigo capitalizes on the distraction; then used a massive blast to slice open his upper body and then continue his assault (Chapter 396)
  • Scan 5: With Yhwach, he unleashes a massive blast obscuring his vision momentarily and forcing him into a defensive stance, which Ichigo follows with a combination of speed and strength to keep the pressure on. (Chapter 676)

Culmination of Physicality II: Combat Skill & Prowess

In terms of sheer number of abilities, Ichigo being the limited fighter that he needs an edge that can begin to close that gap. For him, this is mainly through his own personal combat skill, created and developed even without any formal training, but based mostly on instinct and his own growth. He has repeatedly shown great agility and coordination in his attacks. In addition to having powerful kicks and punches, Ichigo is proficient in counterattacks, takedowns, and body locks.

Something Ichigo has been proficient in from youth, training in martial arts ever since he was a child. When fighting, I've shown you Ichigo going for decisive blows with his sword; well the mentality for that comes from his style of adapting decisive blows when he has chances to strike at his enemies. For example, one of his most famous showings:

Chapter 152: The Speed Phantom
Chapter 152: The Speed Phantom

Before I begin, take note of the previous page. Notice how all three lieutenants are focused on taking him down, and so release their full power and weapons. Ichigo takes opportunity in that split-second delay to take all three down. This is something he continues to do even in the final arc, especially in situations when he is fighting multiple opponents.

Right to Left:

  • Scan 1: Ichigo blitzes and strikes the first lieutenant directly in his diaphragm, knocking him out in one blow, even shattering his Zanpakuto in the process and sending him flying
  • Scan 2-3: Before the first can even go flying, Ichigo spins, grabs the arm of the second lieutenant and strikes him squarely in the chin knocking him out in one blow as well and sending him flying.
  • Scan 3-4: Finally before the previous two can move any distance, Ichigo strikes the third lieutenant with a palm thrust, again to the diaphragm leading to the same result.

Culmination of Physicality II: Adaptation

As shown with versatility; I wanted to highlight a specific instance which I think brings together Ichigo's physical prowess quite nicely, durability notwithstanding. In particular, I wanted to highlight a showing in the first phase of his rematch with Ulquiorra:

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Bleach 341: The Envy
  • In the first scan, we see Ichigo is able to essentially watch Ulquiorra movements as if they were slow motion (not really) and then react to each of them; then placing his evasive moves so as to not incur any wasted steps.
  • From there he is able to analyze, perceive, and then catch Ulq's arm and then overpower it.
  • Then to end the exchange, as Ulq is taken aback by what happened, Ichigo slashes him across the chest

Now, what does this show? Ichigo's ability of being able to break down his opponent's mid-fight, and then use his physicality to overwhelm and put them in a position where his sword can do maximum damage. Combining that with his Hi-Pressure tactics, CQC skill, power and versatility creates a deadly bruiser that could spell huge danger for anyone here.

The Dark Moon Stroke Chapter III: Creating a Plan for Battle/Addressing X-Factors

And with that, Ichigo's arsenal is set. We all know what it is. And we also know how he can employ it. What I haven't shown you is the breakdown of just how powerful Ichigo can get with these attacks. That will be covered soon enough. For now, I will acknowledge that Ichigo doesn't have the plethora of abilities that his opponent may have, but he makes what he has work, and uses it to devastating effect.

Even against opponents more versatile than himself. Take for instance during the battle against Sosuke Aizen:

With Ichigo being someone who takes the chances he gets to totally overwhelm his opponents, Ichigo clearly is a man of opportunity, any attack that potentially leaves an opening, be it they are stunned, hurt, or at least distracted by it; Ichigo will blitz to a blind spot and attack:

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Chapter 396: The Bite

Take note of how after Aizen takes a major attack from Yamamoto, he is in the perfect position for Ichigo to take a well-placed strike to his torso. This kind of tactic is perfect for team battle. As soon as any of the others try to deal with any major attacks, Ichigo can use his Flash Step, allowing him to completely disappear from view as he moves in order to set up his own attack. Placing him a position to cause massive damage and get back out before he can be effectively countered. Essentially perfect guerilla warfare adapted to fighting multiple opponents at once.

This is compounded by something I mentioned before; Ichigo knows his own weaknesses. He knows he is limited compared to others, and because of that is often underestimated something which will likely happen considering his opponent‘s own experiences as well as each of your own subconscious notions of Ichigo being a one-trick pony:

Chapter 443: Dirty Boots Dangers
Chapter 443: Dirty Boots Dangers

When fighting Ichigo takes note of what he has in his arsenal and its limitations. He even goes so far as to fully sell out to the limitations that he lets Jackie believe she completely saw through on her own. Once that's down and she fully breaks it down, she moves to attack believing she knows just how to counter it, which she does. To her dismay, however, Ichigo holds no falsehoods on his own power and reveals he knows his drawbacks. This leaves Jackie wide open to his attack as she was fooled completely. This is a prime example of Ichigo's battle sense.

Being able to continually adapt to his situation and opponent. Ichigo is a character who spends his entire series fighting opponents who on paper eclipse him in versatility, and yet Ichigo closes the gap with not only brute force but skill and versatility of his own. Knowing when, where and how to use his abilities to the fullest.

I will update this section further once my partner posts and we delve into our opening strategies. For now, I look forward to exploring this debate more in upcoming posts.

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Darthjhawk

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TAEP and T4V

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Gilgamesh is swiping all the 2v2s lol, T4V

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TAEP and T4V

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The Prince of Balbadd

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Theme Music:

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King's Vessel I - The Power of Amon

As a dungeon capturer in the world of Magi, Alibaba is in possession of one of the legendary metal vessels which grant their wielder incredible powers and allow them to transform themselves into the form of a djinn through the "Djinn Equip". Alibaba's particular metal vessel is his sword, which contains the fire djinn, Amon.

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The most notable ability of Amon's blade is its ability to effectively "cut through anything" due to its heat, and Alibaba has consistently demonstrated the ability to easily pierce people and objects who were at or above his weight class. For example, when crossing blades with Hakuryuu (another metal vessel user who was notably more powerful than Alibaba at the time) Hakuryuu literally cut his spear in half when his attack was blocked by Alibaba:

Night 31: The Enemy
Night 31: The Enemy

(Note: Images are ordered right to left to preserve the original panel flow)

As one would expect from a fire Djinn, Amon's sword also allows Alibaba to create and project flames in various forms, but it also effectively grants him immunity to any fire attacks, as he can passively absorb them without receiving any damage from them, such as he did when Kouen dragged him into a volcano.

However, the main attraction of a metal vessel would be the ability to djinn equip that I mentioned earlier. In doing so, the user envelops themselves in the power of their djinn in order to assimilate their power. Initially, Alibaba is only able to Djinn Equip his weapon, but even with just that he still has some quite impressive feats such as the following:

Night 176: Barbatos
Night 176: Barbatos

In this feat, Alibaba blocks Muu's extreme magic (Which is essentially the highest attack a Metal Vessel user can perform). Said attack was going to one-shot the massive barriers surrounding Magnostadt and even after it was blocked still made a shockwave that dwarfed a mountain, making this a very impressive feat indeed.

That said, Alibaba's best feats come from his full body Djinn equip. In this state he's able to completely harness the power of Amon, allowing him to easily unleash hugely powerful attacks at will.

One of the ways Magi commonly shows the power of its characters is through comparing them to various huge creatures, the two most common of these being the Dark Djinn and the Angels of the Sacred Palace.

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Starting with the Dark Djinn, people are consistently seen as specs in comparison to them, and them seem to be comparable to small mountains/large hills in the environment.

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Angels of the sacred palace have similar showings, often dwarfing buildings. In the example on the right, the holes they made (which are comparable in size to themselves) are similar in size to mountains. Now that we've established the size of these behemoths, the question becomes how exactly does Alibaba relate to them? Well, look no further than the following:

Night 345: The Battle to Protect The World
Night 345: The Battle to Protect The World

In this feat Alibaba completely vaporises over thirty Angels in a single attack, clearly demonstrated the awesome power Alibaba wields with his full Djinn Equip. He has also shown the ability to cut through both the Djinn and the Angels like butter on various occasions.

For an alternative showing demonstrating what Alibaba can do, take the following where he matches an attack from Teen Sinbad. Sinbad even as a teen was able to carve out an island in order to create room for his kingdom:

Adventures of Sinbad Chapter 180 Raws
Adventures of Sinbad Chapter 180 Raws

Looking at modern-day Sindria, we can see that Sinbad essentially carved out an island sized mountain with a single attack, and Alibaba was even with him with a casual attack.

King's Vessel II - The Royal's Swordplay

Now that I've sufficiently established the power Alibaba commands as a metal vessel user, it is time to dig deeper into how he uses said power, starting with Alibaba's skill.

I'm just going to go ahead and say that Alibaba is the best swordsman in his verse, and I expect that he's the most skilled combatant here. In the final arc of the series, it was stated that Sharrkan, The King of Heliohapt and Alibaba's sword instructor was pretty much the best in the world, and yet in the same fight Sharrkan himself admitted this:

Night 356: Requiem
Night 356: Requiem

However, even without this statement, Alibaba has shown himself to be an incredibly skilled fighter. A good example of his general skill would be a showing from very early on in the series before he even started training with Sharrkan.

Night 12: Life on the Line
Night 12: Life on the Line

In the above example, we see Alibaba lecturing a trained fighter about all his openings and the flaws in his fighting style that he could exploit. This a good example of how even a significantly less skilled Alibaba can exploit openings and abuse them to his advantage, which is especially dangerous given the piercing power of his sword and the fact that Alibaba doesn't hesitate to kill people in serious fights.

Alibaba also has another ability that makes his sword fighting more dangerous, that being Magoi Manipulation (sometimes referred to as Ki). This ability can be used to coat the user's weapon in a special aura that allows for several benefits. When Hakuryuu used this on his spear it prevented Alibaba's sword from cutting through it, but the more dangerous part is that attacking someone with Magoi Manipulation inflicts internal damage on them.

Night 140, Night 41
Night 140, Night 41

Scan 1: Sinbad inflicting an internal attack with Magoi Manipulation

Scan 2-3: Toto's Magoi Manipulation worked on Alibaba even though he blocked the attack.

This ability could prove incredibly dangerous for Alibaba's opponents, but it also leads my nicely into Alibaba's next technique. You see, in his fight against Toto where she was using Magoi Manipulation, he managed to deal with her attacks using a fighting style he learned from Sharrkan:

Night 140: Yanbara
Night 140: Yanbara

This particular fighting style focuses on deflecting and parrying attacks instead of outright blocking them. As already mentioned Alibaba was able to deal with Toto's amped strikes using this technique, but Sharrkan was also able to deflect attacks from Amon's sword, the power of which I've already demonstrated. What this means for this battle is that even if Alibaba is at a notable physical disatvantage, he should still be able to cope with his opponents' attacks by deflecting them. Assuming, of course, that he can keep up with them in speed.

Which shouldn't really be an issue for him. In the last arc of Magi, The drills of the sacred palace were seen flying across continents in moments in their efforts to return the world to the ruhk. As an example of how fast this would make them, simply flying across America in 4 seconds would be roughly Mach 3k, and Alibaba was shown to be more than comparable to these drills on many occasions:

Night 361: Night
Night 361: Night

Even whilst exhausted and injured, Alibaba was capable of outspeeding these drills and cutting them down, even protecting Heliohapt from a barrage of them at once. This feat should cement Alibaba as well into the quad mach range speed-wise.

The last thing to talk about in this section would be an ability Alibaba unlocked after he came back from the dead which greatly aids him in combat, that being his Hyper-Concentration.

Night 289: Alibaba's Power
Night 289: Alibaba's Power

Yunan explains it pretty well: When Alibaba concentrates he's able to drastically slow down his perceptions, to the point where he can "make an instant last for an eternity". Alibaba can't move well during this slowed down time so it mainly just helps his perceptions, but the biggest advantage is that it allows an already very skilled fighter plentiful time to analyse the situation and choose the best option. Alibaba himself states that he can find a way to beat any opponent regardless of their strength. This is hyperbole no doubt, but it still demonstrates how this particular ability effectively amps his skill.

King's Vessel III - The Soul Reaper's Partner

Okay. I've demonstrated how powerful Alibaba is and how he uses said power, so the final thing to talk about in this opener would be the matchup.

Ichigo and Alibaba are both melee fighters first and foremost so they're just going to be engaging Sasuke and Yusuke with their melee attacks. They should have the advantage in melee combat due to their physicals advantage over Sasuke (when he's not using Susanoo) and their weapons advantage over Yusuke, with both of them possessing very dangerous piercing attacks. Additionally both Ichigo and Alibaba can fly, which naturally gives them an advantage in mobility.

Additionally, they can both easily exploit openings that the other makes as Ichigo has shown the ability to do several times, and as Alibaba can easily do due to his Hyper-Concentration. This is something Alibaba has done even before he had the ability:

Night 103: Reverse Flow of Fate
Night 103: Reverse Flow of Fate

Here Alibaba takes advantage of an opening made by Aladdin to kill decapitate Isnan, who they hadn't even been directly fighting at the time.

So it's unlikely that that they'll lose a melee confrontation, making a ranged battle more favourable for Yusuke and Sasuke. However even then, both Alibaba and Ichigo possess powerful ranged attacks of their own, and they'll definitely both go for a melee fight instead of staying at a range. The only thing that would be a big threat is Sasuke's hax, namely Genjutsu and Amaterasu. However, I'm going to get into why I don't think either will be particularly effective against Alibaba.

Starting with the obvious one, Amaterasu. As a fire based technique, I have my doubts on this doing anything to Alibaba. I've already shown him no-selling lava as a temperature feat, but Alibaba has also taken powerful fire attacks on more than without sustaining any notable damage:

Night 360: Alibaba's Answer
Night 360: Alibaba's Answer

Here Alibaba is more than capable of withstanding and absorbing flame attacks from one of Kouen's assimilated Household members. This same person was able to obliterate several Dark Djinn at once with his attacks, and yet Alibaba took multiple attacks from him without issue, and later on he even asked to get hit by his attacks so he could regain energy.

Another thing is that Alibaba should reasonably be able absorb Amaterasu flames from Ichigo if he gets hit. He has shown the ability to absorb AOE fire attacks, showing that he doesn't need to be in direct contact with flames to absorb them. Which leaves Genjutsu.

Pre-Timeskip Alibaba was able to resist a mental attack that allowed Madura to control dozen of children (with a small amount of help from Aladdin), but he has a much more notable feat after he came back to life after the timeskip. He was one of the few people who remained unaffected when Sinbad rewrote the Ruhk:

Night 329: The Greedy King of Man
Night 329: The Greedy King of Man

Sinbad rewriting the ruhk meant changing the beliefs of everyone on the planet on a spiritual level to the point where they still acted like themselves but all wanted to essentially commit mass suicide. The fact that Alibaba remained unaffected by such a thing leaves me very unconvinced at the idea that Sasuke's Genjutsu would do anything of note to him.

Overall Alibaba and Ichigo should have the advantage in a straight up fight, and Sasuke's hax won't be particularly effective at all, especially not against Alibaba.

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very nice! i wonder how they are gonna rebuttal against that.

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GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps

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Yusuke Urameshi: The Demon Born Spirit Detective

"Nothing as trivial as a violent death or a few drops of demon blood mixed in with mine is going to keep me from helping out my friends and saving the world, and kicking the bad guy's ass."
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Introductions:

Now then, both of my opponents have made excellent posts, however based on those, I do think Yusuke has what it takes too, alongside Sasuke, win this bout. Given that Yusuke is a very simple character with a very simple role, this post will focus on his primary objective of hitting his opponents really friggin hard, as for my money, in terms of raw damage output, Yusuke is the strongest one here.

Establishing the World/Mechanics:

When discussing the world of Yu Yu Hakusho, as well as Yusuke specifically, their are 2 important things that need to be considered in order to get the full grasp of the verse's true potential.

Yu Yu Hakusho Chapter 19
Yu Yu Hakusho Chapter 19

The first thing to consider is the nature of Yusuke's Spirit Gun, with it being explicitly stated to be twice as powerful as any physical punch he can muster, and with Yusuke having some rock solid physicals, so whilst this is pretty simple, it should show that his spirit gun hits like a semi-automatic nuke. And whilst Yusuke used to only be able to fire 1 Spirit Gun a day, that's a limit he's overcome a while back, so running out of fuel shouldn't be a factor at all.

Yu Yu Hakusho Chapter 118
Yu Yu Hakusho Chapter 118

The most important thing to consider however, is spirit rankings. These are essentially power levels to distinguish the levels of strength between demons, ranging from the E Class (basically a bunch of mr.mc fodders) and the way up to upper S, where Yusuke is at by the time the series wraps up.

What's more is that the gap between the individual levels is incredibly high, this has been proven multiple times throughout the series, but the most blunt showing is how Shinobu Shensui, a low level S class, as able to lolstomp Kuwabara, Hiei using The Dragon of The Darkness Flame & Yoko Kurama, all of whom where considered A+ by the end of Chapter Black (it was a proper stomp too, no-selling hits, blitzing & one-shotting them, the whole package really), illustrating that when discussing these levels, it's very important to be reminded of just how large the gap is between tiers.

Physicals/Spirit Gun Potency:

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, let's get down into the nitty gritty and go over Yusuke's general physicals.

Yu Yu Hakusho chapter 42
Yu Yu Hakusho chapter 42

Starting with speed, Yusuke has shown the capability of dodging Dark Lightning Shockwave from Suzaku, and whilst at face value it doesn't seem that impressive given Yusuke got tagged, it's nullified by 3 main parts.

The first being the distance between the lightning and Yusuke before he started moving, illustrated in the bottom right of the first panel. The lightning was, whilst not 100% point blank, still very close to Yusuke before he started moving (eyeballing it seems to be about a couple feet, give or take), which makes it more impressive than standard lightning affairs

The second being that Suzaku was using his Demonic Array of Darkness to essentially bombard Yusuke from 6-7 angles, and considering the distanceI already considered, the fact that he was only hit by one is a feat in of itself.

Finally, the lightning Suzaku uses is not only natural lightning given he gets it directly from the sky, but he also combines it with Dark Energy, making it a lot stronger than traditional lightning, which makes it not unbelievable to say it's a decent step faster.

So yeah, this feat is pretty solid, which makes it even more insane that Yusuke only did this when he was considered a C level threat, which scaled above to his current S class status makes putting Yusuke in the quad mach range a pretty safe bet, especially when factoring in other feats which I'll discuss in the future.

Yu Yu Hakusho Chapter 150
Yu Yu Hakusho Chapter 150

And in regards to strength, Yusuke is equally solid, as showcased during his brawl with Sensui, where just as a byproduct of their brawl, they were capable of destroying the Chopping Block Plateau, a pretty sizeable mountain, which should be about mountain+ by my metrics, which should put his EoS self at solidly multi-montain, and of course his Spirit Gun at even greater heights.

What Yusuke Brings to The Table & How it Helps The Uchiha:

In regards to this fight itself, this is a pretty simple equation to put together. Since both Ichigo & Allibaba are basically just big bois with swords, it means that with they don't have any other options other than to win a physicals war, which Yusuke should be more than capable of keeping up with them in terms of speed, and in terms of firepower has some of the best this debate has to offer.

So whilst I am holding back feats for later until later into this debate, hopefully I have shown that between Yusuke's physicals & Sasuke's vast toolkit which my partner will be glad to demonstrate, we have a duo that is both capable of both keeping the physicals at bay whilst being able to to exploit the other duo's lacking toolkit to great effect. Then it's just a matter of wether or not you can survive against both hax & raw power at the same time.

And if that fails, just blast em both to hell with a well placed Spirit Gun :).

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That concludes my opener, my next post shall contain many of Yusuke's more niche achievements and other additional info in order to solidly show him as the kingpin of DPS.

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FullMetalEmprah

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Tag for everything!

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Bumpity

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Sasuke Uchiha, The Avenger

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Introduction

I don't think he needs an introduction but I'll give one anyway. He's an increasingly popular character (for both good and bad reasons) from a popular series, Naruto. His family was killed when he was young by his older brother, leaving him the sole heir to one of the Land of Fire's greatest and oldest clans. Sasuke kept hatred for his brother in his heart for years, making it his goal as a shinobi to find his brother Itachi and have the power to kill him to avenge his clan. This caused him to abandon his village and friends in order to seek out Orochimaru, one of the legendary three Sannin, who promised him he could give him power and quicker than by normal means. Sasuke spent the next two years training with Orochimaru before turning his back on him and "killing" him, absorbing his power and taking it for himself before finding and creating a team in the hopes of finding and finally killing Itachi. The two brothers eventually meet and although Itachi falls in the fight, Sasuke soon learns the truth about the night of the Uchiha Massacre and his brother's actions. Sasuke then took it upon himself to get revenge on Konohagakure for what they made his brother Itachi go through.

With introductions out of the way, now I'll get into showcasing some attributes and abilities for Sasuke that both prove he's the MVP in this CaV and why he's the reason my team secures the victory.

Speed

Now I wanted to title this section "Physicals" but realized that I'm not going to be going into details about Sasuke's strength or durability. Why is this? It's not because I believe Sasuke can win without needing strength or durability feats of his own, but he isn't a physical fighter who relies on strength or tanking and surviving hits to win his battles. He's a tactical fighter who uses range, his intellect, and his assortment of different abilities to win his matches, not getting into slugfests with his opponents. Now, onto the feats.

First, let's establish the level of speed the Naruto-verse is operating at during the War arc. Before then, Sasuke fought his older brother Itachi Uchiha on their Uchiha hideout. Sasuke went into the fight knowing he needed an ability to counter his brother's "undodgeable" Amaterasu. TLDR and not wanting to summarize the whole fight (yet), Sasuke manipulates events so that he could summon a large bolt of lightning down to hit his brother, believing that its speed combined with its destructive power would be enough to defeat his brother once and for all. This jutsu, Kirin, is natural lightning guided down by Sasuke towards Itachi that obliterated the Uchiha hideout (which is a large hill) but was still able react to the attack in time to enact his Susanoo, which helped him survive the blast. (Ch. 391). What makes this more impressive than just normal lightning timing is that this feat has been calced to be at Mach 3000 low end by the user DodoNova2 on VsBattles.

What's that? The calc is from vsbattles, which is largely seen as an unreliable site when it comes to ranking and evaluating characters, often times placing them at tiers and levels way higher than they've actually shown via feats or in-verse logic. Here's where you can't just throw the feat out because "vsbattles bad!", however. Sasuke and Itachi were standing on the top of the Uchiha hideout, which is itself already a large hill with five levels (Ch. 391), with the Uchiha hideout being on the top level (Ch. 390). The Uchiha hideout itself is already a two-story sized structure, and we see how that two-story sized building compares to the rest of the large hill (Ch. 380). Now, while Zetsu claimed that Kirin's speed, the speed of lightning, is 1/1000 of a second, Itachi would have needed to react to that speed in the small time frame it would cross the minimum height for a cumulonimbus cloud and that of the Uchiha hideout. This is important to note because those same eyes are now with Sasuke after he took them to advance his Mangekyo Sharingan to the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, stating that he already feels Itachi's power while still recovering after having them transplanted in him (Ch. 488).

Now how does this look in action? How much faster does Sasuke get from his new amp and his Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan? For that, we need to look to the Fourth Shinobi War. Near the end of the war, the goal of Obito and Madara Uchiha was to the Shinju in order to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi off of the moon and have it reflected onto the earth, trapping everyone in an eternal Genjutsu. The roots of the Shinju tree are fast enough to reach all around the main continent, from the Frost Country to all of the other great Nations, in mere moments, but unlike the feat Meastromage used for Alibaba, the roots of the Shinju tree traveled through the ground and still covered across a continent in what can be no longer than a few seconds (Ch. 677/678). Now these same roots, under Juubito's control where he specifically switched to a more aggressive form, intended to attack a few shinobi before Tobirama came in and saved them (Ch. 650).

Now let's see how Tobirama himself handles Juubito's speed compared to the roots. The very first time the reanimated Hokage intend to fight Juubito, the Ten Tails Jinchuuriki blitzes right through Tobirama and a Wood Clone of his brother Hashirama as they were staring straight at him (Ch. 638). Now this is before Obito had gained actual control over the Ten Tails inside of him and still hadn't synced between the two of them (Ch. 639). After Obito had fully gained control of the Ten Tails, only Naruto and Sasuke were able to keep fighting him on somewhat even terms and had to do so without the help and aid of Minato and Tobirama they were getting in the beginning of the fight. Speaking of, however, how does Sasuke handle an even faster Juubito? He is able to not only prevent himself from getting blitzed, but also track Juubito with his Sharingan better than Naruto and his sensing could (Ch. 650).

So we've seen how fast Sasuke is, how his feats compare and stack against those of Ichigo's and Alibaba's, and we'll see how this is only supplemented by his Sharingan later on.

Hax

Sasuke is a character with a variety of abilities and has some of the best and most hax ones in this debate. I'll use this section to talk about what those abilities are, how powerful they are, and how they will be used to gain advantages in this fight and give my team the win. These abilities will be the Chidori, Sharingan, Amaterasu, Susanoo, and Genjutsu.

Chidori

The Chidori is a move taught to Sasuke by his former mentor and Jounin instructor Kakashi Hatake, who used the Lightning Blade variant of the move. Sasuke learned this jutsu to better combat Gaara in his Chunin Exams match-up and to make use of the speed his Sharingan was able to copy off of Rock Lee. The Chidori itself is a super powerful thrust, gathering lightning chakra in one's hand and primarily used in assassination (Ch.113). The Chidori has since become Sasuke's trump card to use in battle, favored way more than his Clan's usual use of Fireball jutsu. Sasuke has found ways to make the Chidori more than just a powerful thrust attack by changing it's chakra form, having and creating moves such as Chidori Senbon, Chidori Spear, Chidori Stream, or even using it on himself to diffuse microscopic clay bombs in his body or by diverting blades from hitting vital spots when stabbed. Sasuke has even learned to run his Chidori through his sword that makes it impossible to block it unless the opponent is also running chakra through their blades, as well as paralyze the opponent when they're stabbed from the Chidori coursing through them (Ch.308).

This last ability (running lightning/chakra through his blade) could help him to counter Alibaba's sword if it gets to a sword fight between the two of them, help deter any close quarters fights that Sasuke doesn't want to get into or finds himself in, or even paralyze either Ichigo or Alibaba with a surprise attack while they are dealing with Yusuke.

Sharingan

The Sharingan. The Uchiha Clan's bread and butter. Sasuke's trump card that you won't see him fight without using. The Sharingan is an ocular ability that offers its host increased sensory perception, the ability to cast and see through illusions, move reading and precognition, the ability to copy any ninjutsu (outside of kekkei genkai) it sees, and grants him the following abilities of Amaterasu and Susanoo that I'll get into in their own sections. Let's look at how the Sharingan allows its user to see an opponent's next move, which makes both countering and setting up strikes and attacks extremely easier. In their first fight at the Valley of the End, Naruto was giving Sasuke the sauce with his KN0 mode, moving faster than he could react and outright controlling the fight. As soon as Sasuke awakened his third tomoe, he was able to not only see Naruto's movements more clearly than before just by looking at him, but also know where to set up his strikes so that he could, in his own words, "read his next move and set up his strike before it happens" (Ch. 230).

Sasuke has used his Sharingan to create the perfect opportunities to counter an opponent's strike, dodging at the last second and following up with a powerful strike of his own. He has done this in three different fights, against Naruto at the Valley of the End, against Killer Bee when they fought in Storm Ravine, and against the Fourth Raikage Ay when they fought at the Five Kage Summit. Against Naruto, the two of them powered up to their strongest forms at the time, Naruto using a large Rasengan with his One-Tailed Kurama mode, and Sasuke using a powerful Chidori with his V2 Curse Mark form. The two launched themselves at each other, went to clash between their jutsu, but Sasuke ducked at the last second and was able to strike Naruto in the chest (Ch. 232/233). Against Killer Bee, Sasuke admittedly doesn't counterattack after dodging at the last minute, but that's because he didn't really have the option to. He was launched by his teammate Jugo towards Killer Bee's location and saw Bee transform using a chakra cloak and charge at him instead. Sasuke was able to maneuver midair to dodge the attack, something Bee noted as not being done since his brother and the self-proclaimed fasted shinobi at the time, the Fourth Raikage (Ch. 412/413). The last example is Raikage Ay, who increases his speed and power with lightning jutsu and wanted to murder Sasuke for "capturing" his adopted brother Killer Bee and handing him over to the Akatsuki. As the two charged at each other, Ay with a powered elbow and Sasuke with the Chidori, Sasuke ducked him at the last second and was able to land his Chidori in Ay's chest (Ch. 462/463).

This form of move reading and perception granted by the Sharingan is more than capable of reading either Ichigo's moves or Alibaba's and would allow Sasuke to sneak a debilitating or even fatal strike in if these fighters get in close and personal.

Amaterasu

Amatersu is an ability Sasuke received when he awakened his Mangekyo Sharingan after fighting Itachi. Itachi knew that Sasuke still had Orochimaru's Curse Mark and wanted to ride him of the man, so he manipulated events during their fight to draw Orochimaru out and "kill" him, which caused Sasuke to receive the Mangekyo. In his last dying act, Itachi practically transcribed his Amaterasu into Sasuke's eyes so that he would have the ability (Ch. 397). Amaterasu is a fire jutsu that spawns black flames on whatever the caster has its sights on. The most impressive thing about these flames is that they never go out until they've turned their target to ash (Ch. 390). It has even kept burning a small forest during a strong rain (Ch. 394). Sasuke, however, is more skilled at using Amaterasu than Itachi was because he has an ability called Kagutsuchi that allows him to apply change in form to the flames. This means Sasuke can use Amaterasu to create a coat his Susanoo in flames to create and even more dangerous defense, a flame sword capable of firing off Amaterasu spiked-projectiles, a sword for his Susanoo to wield that ignites those it impales in Amaterasu flames, or fire off magatama-shaped projectiles that ignite a target with Amaterasu flames, killing them in a quick manner.

Amaterasu is a great move and a powerful ability, however Sasuke doesn't use it as a sort of finisher or "big flashy move". It's usually accompanied to aid in battle alongside others, to help create an opening, or to help himself get out of fishy situations. That's not to say Sasuke won't use it or any of its variants in battle or open with them, which will be touched upon in the Skills, Tactics, and Intelligence section.

Susanoo

The Susanoo is a large chakra construct that Sasuke can materialize around himself to aid him in battle. Sasuke awakened this ability the same time he awakened his Amaterasu and Mangekyo Sharingan. The Susanoo grants him a vastly superior defense, more ranged options for attack, and allows him to better incorporate Amaterasu and its variants into his attacks. Susanoo has different forms that become more powerful each time it "evolves" so to speak, with those forms being Skeletal, Humanoid, and Armored for this match. In one of its weakest forms, Sasuke's Skeletal Susanoo can tank without a scratch the combined attacks of Gaara of the Sand, his two bodyguards and siblings Temari and Kankuro, and Darui of the Cloud Village (Ch. 464). The Susanoo can use either a sword or a bow and arrow it has by itself or add in the change in form with his Amaterasu, which Sasuke has done on many occasions (Ch. 634). Probably the best defensive feat Sasuke's Susanoo has (that I can draw on for this debate) occurred in his fight Juubito, Obito Uchiha as the Ten Tails Jinchuuriki. In that fight, Juubito was able to block an attack from Sasuke and Naruto, then proceed to have his Truth Seeking Balls wrap around both Sasuke's Susanoo and Naruto's Kurama Avatar and slam them into the ground, creating a large explosion and crater (Ch. 650). Now, why would I show a feat of Sasuke's Susanoo after it was basically defeated? That's because despite being slammed into the ground by Juubito, he was neither knocked unconscious or in any serious pain afterwards, and we even see just how long he was actually "down". He even is able to create an even larger version of his Susanoo right afterwards, one capable of completely covering Naruto's Kurama Avatar (Ch. 651).

Now, what else makes Sasuke being slammed into the ground by Juubito so much better? That would be Juubito's own strength feats, and for that we have to go back a little further in the War. During the fighting, the reanimated previous four Hokage created a Four Crimson Rays barrier to surround the Juubi and prevent its movements. This barrier can only be performed by Hokage level individuals and was powerful enough to trap and contain the Juubi's extremely destructive Tailed Beast Bomb (Ch. 631/632). For reference, the Juubi's Tailed Beast Bomb is more powerful than the Tailed Beast Bombs of the other nine Bijuu, can be seen along with the curvature of the planet, and has its explosion reach into the upper levels of the atmosphere (Ch. 613). Now, when Obito became the Jinchuuriki of the Ten Tails, one of the first things he did was rip apart the Hokage barrier with some of his chakra arms with utter ease, proving his new strength to be clearly above what the Juubi's Tailed Beast Bomb could do (Ch. 638).

So now, we have Juubito's strength > Juubi's Tailed Beast Bomb, and that same strength was what slammed Sasuke and Naruto into the ground and overpowered their avatars. But again, Sasuke was neither knocked unconscious nor in any sever pain afterwards, and we see him create an even larger Susanoo literally moments afterwards while jumping back into the fight.

Genjutsu

Genjutsu is one of the three main jutsu in the Narutoverse, along with ninjutsu and taijutsu. Genjutsu traps its victims in sensory illusions and can be done through any of the five sense, sound, sight, taste, touch, or smell. Shikamaru Nara, one of the smartest characters in the series, informs Temari of the Sand Village about Tayuya of the Sound Four's abilities, where she uses a flute to cast Genjutsu and catch all of those who hear it in her spell. Shikamaru notes specifically that Genjutsu works on a target's five senses in this recap (Ch. 214). Sasuke however has the Sharingan, which means that he can put an opponent under his Genjutsu just by looking at them. The scariest thing about this ability for Alibaba and Ichigo is that neither have impressive illusion resistance feats, but neither of the two know about the Sharingan and how it works. Individuals in the Narutoverse all know about the Sharingan and how deadly it is, which makes some of them go to drastic measure to try and counter it. Zabuza Momochi, one of the legendary Seven Swordsmen of the Mist and an S-ranked threat to all nations, used a thick Mist jutsu and closed his eyes in his second fight with Kakashi Hatake to prevent falling under the effects of the Sharingan and to try and limit its effectiveness (Ch. 26). Deidara, a member of the Akatsuki and former member of the Stone Village, faced off against Itachi Uchiha in the past and almost killed himself after falling into one of Itachi's illusions. Over the years since then, Deidara specifically trained one of his eyes to counter and negate the illusionary effects of the Sharingan for his preferred rematch against the older Uchiha brother (Ch. 360).

So we see just how feared the Sharingan is even in the Narutoverse where characters know about the abilities and capabilities of the ability. You have ninja creating mist too thick to see through and fighting with their eyes closed to try and counter it and others training one of their eyes for years just to see through basic Sharingan illusions in an attempt to have a counter to that ability. In a fight like this, where Sasuke is fighting two characters who don't have an idea what he can do, Genjutsu is one of his biggest trump cards. Although Genjutsu is never a card Sasuke wants to open with, he's more than capable and extremely willing to use it to create openings for an attack or capitalize on openings of another person's attack, which is ideal in this scenario. In his fight against Danzo Shimura, Sasuke fooled him into thinking he still had a Sharingan left in order to use his Izanagi ability and forced him into a clash between the two of them when in fact Danzo was all out of Sharingan and was tricked into receiving a mortal wound (Ch. 479/480). In his fight against Killer Bee, Sasuke saw Bee charging him for an attack so he used a Genjutsu against him and paralyzed him, forcing Bee to hit the ground and slide for a few feet (Ch. 413). Now in the scan directly afterwards Bee does break out of the Genjutsu and attack Sasuke, however this is because Bee is a Jinchuuriki and has the Eight Tails inside of him. This means that he has a partner to agitate his chakra and break him out of the illusion. Alibaba doesn't have someone who can do that for him and although Ichigo does, neither he nor Zangetsu know that illusions can be broken this way and in the time they take to figure this out, they'll already be attacked and/or taken out by Yusuke or Sasuke. To make matters worse, all Sasuke needs is that one second, that one moment where the Genjutsu takes hold and paralyzes either Alibaba or Ichigo in order for him or Yusuke to capitalize on and secure a knockout or a killing blow.

Skill, Tactics, and Intelligence

Since the beginning of the series, Sasuke has been a very tactical and intelligent fighter. He knows how to observe his opponents to notice patterns in attacks or abilities, he carefully watches fights in order to jump in at the best possible moment, he makes the best use of an ability of his in specific situations, and he's even used the environment and his opponent's own abilities to help with his own strategy. Darth talked about how Ichigo is one who capitalizes on openings and is a perfect fighter for team fights because he can and has been one to jump into a fight the moment an opening presents itself. Sasuke however is the exact same way and is more deadly because of the amount of abilities he has and can use.

Going back to the very beginning when Sasuke had just graduated from the Ninja Academy, his Jounin instructor Kakashi Hatake took their cell out for a training exercise. Sasuke hide himself well in bushes while his teammate Naruto falls for a trap and is thus scolded by Kakashi. During the lecture, Sasuke uses this opportunity to attack, throwing out his shuriken and kunai knives at Kakashi to catch him off guard (Ch. 6). So since the very beginning of the series, Sasuke has been one to take advantage of openings he sees, whether he's the one making them or the one interjecting and using someone else to make the opening for him to jump in, which he did when his team fought the Fourth Raikage and his bodyguards. While his teammates Suigetsu and Jugo were fighting against Darui and Ay respectively, Sasuke took the opportunity to attack Shee and knock him out with a Genjutsu (Ch. 462). Even something as small as a look away from him is enough for Sasuke, as he appeared behind Deidara and prepared to attack the minute he turned his attention to his Akatsuki partner, Tobi (Ch. 357).

On top of being trained to attack openings, create openings, and make the most of distractions, Sasuke also takes the time to study his opponent and analyze both the situation and their abilities. One of the best examples of this is in his fight against Deidara, who he had never seen or fought beforehand. Deidara is a ninja who uses clay to create explosives that he usually fired off at an opponent. In their fight, Deidara created a large dragon to ride on while his partner Tobi planted mines around the battlefield. The dragon would fire off bombs that would fly towards Sasuke while the mines hindered his movements on the ground, forcing him into difficult positions to try and dodge the explosives. Sasuke, however, was able to figure out that Deidara was using Earth Style jutsu to create his bombs, which can be nullified by Sasuke's lightning style Chidori. During the fight, Sasuke figured out that his Chidori Spear didn't have the reach to hit Deidara's dragon in the sky, so he threw his sword into the ground where he knew a mine was in order to disarm it, used his sword as a foothold to jump in the air where he now had the reach to hit the dragon with his Chidori Spear to take off one of the dragon's wings. Sasuke had directed Deidara right above a group of mines with two large shuriken before and used string to call them back to pin Deidara to the dragon as it crashed onto the mines (Ch. 358).

During the fight against Juubito, Sasuke was able to catch onto the reanimated Hokages' plan as they were setting it up, without any prior planning beforehand. They rushed in and attacked Juubito in an effort to learn about his moves and abilities, using the fact that they won't die in their reanimated bodies but come back and regenerate afterwards to their advantage. Sasuke knew this was their plan and scolded Naruto for not paying attention to the fight and analyzing the battle (Ch. 639). Sasuke then allows himself to create an opening against Juubito, throwing out an Amaterasu directly at Juubito before combining his Amaterasu with Naruto's Rasenshuriken. With them two acting as the main attack, Juubito is caught off-guard when Tobirama and Minato use their Flying Thunder God techniques to basically teleport Juubito directly into the attack of Sasuke and Naruto (Ch. 641).

So we've seen Sasuke since his very earliest days be the one to capitalize on the first opening he sees, whether that be in a fight to the death against the leader of a nation by taking out someone in the back or throwing knives and shuriken at the face and head area of a person talking to another in a training exercise with his new Jounin instructor. We've seen Sasuke utilize his intelligence, awareness, and keen analytic eye used in a completely random fight, being able to discern an opponent's abilities, test counter measures he set up, and set up attack plans two steps ahead while cornering his opponent into a tight spot. We've seen Sasuke analyze and pick up on attack patterns of his allies and use his own tactics once he believes his opponent to be catching on to what's going on. All of this, combined with his other abilities, makes Sasuke the deadliest person here.

Conclusion: What Makes Sasuke the MVP

I've shown that Sasuke is one of if not the fastest person here and should have no problem dodging any powerful ranged attacks, and can circumvent any speed difference (should one exist) with his Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, allowing him to see Ichigo's or Alibaba's movements before it happens while also allowing himself to set up the correct counter attacks or even set up defenses to protect Yusuke if he gets caught in an unfavorable position. With his Sharingan, Sasuke can cast Amaterasu as a diversion or powerful and threatening hindrance, and although Maestromage showed that Alibaba can absorb fire-based attacks thanks to his Djinn Amon, we've seen Sasuke being able to use that one moment's hesitation or distraction to make his move or to set up another move. With the Sharingan, any attempt to bring the fight up close and personal between Sasuke and either members of the other team (which Darth made a point to heavily argue with Ichigo) would result in Sasuke reading the line of attack and countering at the last minute with a fatal Chidori, Amaterasu-based attack, or a Genjutsu to set up another attack. I hate to use the argument but "Genjutsu GG" could also grant my team the win here, from paralyzing either Ichigo or Alibaba for a few moments, to making them believe an attack connected when in fact it didn't, setting up a perfect counter from a blind spot from either Yusuke or Sasuke himself. I've shown Sasuke take his time to observe his opponents, learn their moves and abilities, set up counter measure against those abilities, and use what he thinks would create the best opening or diversion he or his team needs.

All in all, Sasuke's diverse set of skills is what makes him the most dangerous person here. He has too many ways to attack you, too many ways to defend and protect himself, and too many abilities that can't be countered or defended against without prior knowledge or the correct methods to deal with them, which my opponents do not have and do not have the luxury to figure out during the course of this match, especially with the heavy hitter Yusuke on my team.

Phew, that took longer than I thought but I'm glad it's done. Now to bring it back to Darth for Round 2.

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ovy7

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TAEP

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TAEP.

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Not using any strength or durability feats was an interesting decision. Good post overall though.

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@thevivas: How dare you post such quality?! Now I really have to kick your ass 😭😭😭😭

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Handing out ass-beatings within the next 24 hours. Be prepared Vivas and Gilgamesh 😈

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I've been ready hue hu-

Wait

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@maestromage: Boy if you don’t check them pms 🤬🤬🤬

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T4V please !

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@maestromage: @gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps: @thevivas: Round Two gentlemen!

Counters & Strategies I: King, Shinigami, Shinobi, Detective

No Caption Provided

The Fundamentals I: Setting the Stage for the Downfall of Yusuke & Sasuke

So with the first round finally over, we can get down to the nitty-gritty of this discussion. Namely the comparison of our feats, showings, and arguments. From where I stand, I feel like we all have solid intros into our respective characters. Still, despite said respective advantages and disadvantages, I feel like Maestro and I have a solid stake in coming out on top in this setting. Let's begin breaking down why shall we?

The Fundamentals 0.1: Ichigo vs Yusuke:

The less complicated of the two matchups, Yusuke seems to even more of a brick type character than Ichigo himself, at least based on the way you presented him in your opener:

In regards to this fight itself, this is a pretty simple equation to put together. Since both Ichigo & Allibaba are basically just big bois with swords, it means that with they don't have any other options other than to win a physicals war, which Yusuke should be more than capable of keeping up with them in terms of speed, and in terms of firepower has some of the best this debate has to offer.

However, from what I can tell thus far, Yusuke provides little to the battle, given the comparative portrayal between you, Maestro and I. As a reminder, you placed him at multi-mountain and reaching higher with his spirit gun, whilst Maestro and I both presented our characters as island level as a baseline. While I will dive deeper into counters further into the post, to be honest, you didn't present much in terms of contributing an impactful fighter. Make no mistake, I am certainly not dismissing him or you, but until you show more

My reasoning to which will be further explained down below.

The Fundamentals 0.2: Ichigo vs Sasuke

The more complicated of the two matchups for Ichigo here. The way you presented him exuded confidence and demonstrated your belief that he is the most dangerous fighter here:

All in all, Sasuke's diverse set of skills is what makes him the most dangerous person here. He has too many ways to attack you, too many ways to defend and protect himself, and too many abilities that can't be countered or defended against without prior knowledge or the correct methods to deal with them, which my opponents do not have and do not have the luxury to figure out during the course of this match, especially with the heavy hitter Yusuke on my team.

Something that I would tend to agree with. Sasuke's versatility does make him the most dangerous combatant. However, that doesn't net him the immediate win. As Ichigo has faced just as dangerous, if not more dangerous opponents and found ways to come out on top. And that's not to mention Sasuke's weaknesses, at least the way you presented him. Namely;

Why is this? It's not because I believe Sasuke can win without needing strength or durability feats of his own, but he isn't a physical fighter who relies on strength or tanking and surviving hits to win his battles.

While you explained why you didn't include this, I think this was a stark misstep as this could essentially be interpreted as Sasuke having no physical answer to his opponents, and should they be to somehow circumvent and/or counteract key aspects of their arsenal, they can deal severe damage to him despite his vast advantages.

Something I mean to prove further down into this post.

================================================

The Dark Moon Stroke Chapter IV: Shinigami vs Spirit Detective

Speed Usage & Mastery:

Starting with speed, Yusuke has shown the capability of dodging Dark Lightning Shockwave from Suzaku, and whilst at face value it doesn't seem that impressive given Yusuke got tagged, it's nullified by 3 main parts...

So yeah, this feat is pretty solid, which makes it even more insane that Yusuke only did this when he was considered a C level threat, which scaled above to his current S class status makes putting Yusuke in the quad mach range a pretty safe bet, especially when factoring in other feats which I'll discuss in the future.

While this is a solid baseline, I still have some reservations. For one, from the shot you presented, I'm not seeing the multiple angles you were talking about in terms of the lightning. Especially since the ones he dodged and the one he was struck by were all shown from the front. When you stated angles, I expected something akin to this. Sure, maybe not to that extreme, but at least somewhat similar in terms of angles.

If we were to compare the two feats, this is a much better showing of Ichigo's mastery of reactionary and combat speed, as not only were the hundred million petals closer, but they surrounded him, omnidirectionally at point-blank range, and yet he still deflected them all away as well as being able to blitz past Byakuya's line of sight and sensory range and deliver what would have been a fatal blow if not for Ichigo stopping to make a point.

Now sure, you could say the petals aren't all as fast as lightning, but it is still a solid MHS feat, one that displays a clear superiority in speed mastery and usage in a much more difficult setting, something that scales to his current high quad mach speeds.

Regardless I think Ichigo is quite clearly faster; as I displayed in my opener, Full Hollow Ichigo was able to completely blitz Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra and displays clear superiority:

Chapter 351
Chapter 351

Which is impressive given that I mentioned an even further restricted Ichigo both in power and mind could react to Mach 1000+ attacks. And Ulquiorra in his R1 State could move FTE over a huge distance to that Ichigo. Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra is at least five times more powerful/faster. Full Hollow Ichigo even more so... combine that with the boost he receives from stacking his fullbring powers and good lord, the results are terrifying.

Raw Power & Physicality:

And in regards to strength, Yusuke is equally solid, as showcased during his brawl with Sensui, where just as a byproduct of their brawl, they were capable of destroying the Chopping Block Plateau, a pretty sizeable mountain, which should be about mountain+ by my metrics, which should put his EoS self at solidly multi-mountain, and of course his Spirit Gun at even greater heights.

I understand you're holding back on feats, but I invite you to bring it now. I told you from the beginning, no even before we started the debate where I was arguing Ichigo in terms of relative power. Hell, Full Hollow palmed an island busting attack while at less than half power. He's operating at peak performance here, along with stacking his Fullbring amplifications. If you want an idea, look no further than Ichigo, when his full potential begins to leak out, being capable of injuring/burning Yhwach:

Chapter 513-14
Chapter 513-14

Who had just previously been shown to be capable of casually handling and containing the power, energy, and heat of Yamamato's Bankai. A Bankai that was capable of destroying all of Soul Society if left unchecked. Even the heat of the Bankai is insane, clocking in at 15 million degrees.

When you have an Ichigo who fights like this:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
Chapter 231-232

Unveiling his recently acquired control over Hollowfication; Ichigo uses a combination of his speed, strength, and Getsuga to pressure Grimmjow; (an opponent who demolished him in their previous encounter) and grievously injure him.

  • We first see him use his speed in an attempt to blitz Grimmjow, who can only barely react, while at the same time charging his blade with Getsuga
  • Next while still in blade lock, Ichigo releases the explosion of Getsuga, bypassing the initial crescent shape on release, thereby negating Grimmjow's reaction time.
  • Then once the smoke clears, Ichigo sends a casual Getsuga which overpowers Grimmjow still, and while he is pressured by that...
  • Ichigo uses his speed to get behind him and then launch another blast at point-blank range.

Or goes for immediate blitzkriegs followed by lethal shots the encompass his opponent's body, you have to step up your game here. Let's stop holding back my friend, especially on the physicals which make up Yusuke's entire fighting style. You gave us no indication of how he's going to endure Ichigo's attacks. He's not just going to throw a punch. Ichigo will cut him down.

================================================

The Dark Moon Stroke Chapter V: Shinigami vs Shinobi

Speed & Sharingan Pre-Cognition:

So we've seen how fast Sasuke is, how his feats compare and stack against those of Ichigo's and Alibaba's, and we'll see how this is only supplemented by his Sharingan later on.

True enough, there's no denying how fast the verse is, and just how fast Sasuke is within it. Still, I don't believe this is a deal-breaker for Ichigo. For starters, he is at least comparable in terms of raw speed, as he was shown to be capable of reacting to and even tagging Yhwach in his Fullbring Bankai state, which normally would still be a heavily suppressed Ichigo. Sure Yhwach is his superior in overall speed here, but I wouldn't say its much too different from the difference between Sasuke and Juubito.

Either way, it is impressive considering Yhwach's combat and reaction times put on display when battling Ichibei Hyosube; Allow me to reintroduce you to Yhwach vs Ichibei and more importantly Senrei Tsutensho:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5
Chapter 605

Ichibei uses a technique called Senri Tsutesho(Chapter 605). It strikes the targets 1000 Ri (roughly 2440/3927 km miles) away in an instant. Yes, I know the scan says 300 miles, but this is a translation error. Backed up by series precedent for Japanese Units of measurement as well as Ichibei using Japanese translations for every other ability and name of his.

Anyway, not only can Ichibei move faster than this speed, as seen in just the previous link. He and Yhwach were shown to be able to fight at those same speeds (Chapter 606.) As well as reacting to mutual attacks that crossed the 1000 Ri distance faster than they could. Ichibei 1 & 2. Yhwach 1(Chapter 607). The sheer launch speed of the attack taken at a conservative two seconds is already approaching Mach 6000+; one second would be well above Mach 10,000 which even still is a lowball considering that these are MHS+ fighters where seconds would seem like a long time. For a frame of reference, characters who are absolute fodder to these two consider even three seconds, an absurdly long time.

And this Ichigo won't be suppressed. Him being composite with his full hollow gives him unfettered access to his powers, not on the level of his True Shikai and above, but enough to manage here, if not give him an edge in raw speed.

Which is where of course the Sharingan would come into play yes?

This form of move reading and perception granted by the Sharingan is more than capable of reading either Ichigo's moves or Alibaba's and would allow Sasuke to sneak a debilitating or even fatal strike in if these fighters get in close and personal.

Well, at this point I would like to introduce the sensory abilities available to all Shinigami, known as Reikaku. Which affords them a sixth sense that allows them to perceive the souls/spiritual power of various beings. In combat it even allows them to fight without using their main senses, namely sight, creating a form of precognition or rather move reading. This ability is what allowed Ichigo to instinctively "react" to and release a Getsuga Tenshou to counter Released Ulquiorra despite being unable to follow his movement at all.

He was even able to do this with Royal Guard member Kirinji, (someone who could blitz characters like Soi-Fon) and reflexively counter despite seemingly taking the bigger hit, even fracturing his wrist in the process. So why is this important? Why do you figure I mention all this, despite the more developed nature of the Sharingan?

With the Sharingan, any attempt to bring the fight up close and personal between Sasuke and either members of the other team (which Darth made a point to heavily argue with Ichigo) would result in Sasuke reading the line of attack and countering at the last minute

Now I wanted to title this section "Physicals" but realized that I'm not going to be going into details about Sasuke's strength or durability. Why is this? It's not because I believe Sasuke can win without needing strength or durability feats of his own, but he isn't a physical fighter who relies on strength or tanking and surviving hits to win his battles.

With similar speed raw speed and functionality in sensory abilities, an exchange of blows is bound to happen. Especially at close range. The difference is, by opting out of showing Sasuke's physical feats, you have, in essence, proving that he can't deal with the blowback. At least not enough to shrug it off in time to avoid a follow-up attack from Ichigo. Who can endure and stay fighting despite multiple grievous wounds debilitating him. Hell, that entire exchange with Yhwach I showed earlier was after he had taken multiple blows from his own reiatsu hyper-concentrated into Getsuga Tensho.

So I would say the precognitive-esque advantage afforded by the Sharingan here could become a double-edged sword, especially when dealing with a Getsuga Tensho, as Ichigo can release its massive AOE in a close-range exchange like that rather easily. Which would cover them both in the blast, and so far, you haven't shown anything for Sasuke to say he could effectively take it. Outside of Susanoo of course, the less of the Susanoo manifested, the less durable it is. Speaking of Susanoo...

Susanoo, Genjutsu, Chidori & Amaterasu:

Susanoo:

. The Susanoo can use either a sword or a bow and arrow it has by itself or add in the change in form with his Amaterasu, which Sasuke has done on many occasions

Offensively, while I'm sure Sasuke's Susanoo has showings that you seem to be holding back on, you chose not to focus on it, instead opting for defense. So until you start presenting speed and power showings, I'll stick to my belief that Ichigo has an advantage over it power-wise, along with being able to deal with its projectiles, by either deflecting, evading or counteracting them with his own. Quilge himself even says the same thing. Defensively, however, is where you stepped your game up.

So now, we have Juubito's strength > Juubi's Tailed Beast Bomb, and that same strength was what slammed Sasuke and Naruto into the ground and overpowered their avatars. But again, Sasuke was neither knocked unconscious nor in any sever pain afterwards, and we see him create an even larger Susanoo literally moments afterwards while jumping back into the fight.

Impressive. No denying that. However, the Susanoo was still destroyed in this instance, meaning it was above the maximum durability it can tank. While I realize that's obvious to you, what should be pointed out is that its level is still far below Juubito's strength level, as this was a casual thing for him. And I would say Ichigo's feats of casually surpassing Lanza at half power, and being able to injure Yhwach are more than enough to prove that he can damage Sasuke's Susanoo if not outright shatter the non-full body versions.

Genjutsu:

although Ichigo does, neither he nor Zangetsu know that illusions can be broken this way and in the time they take to figure this out, they'll already be attacked and/or taken out by Yusuke or Sasuke. To make matters worse, all Sasuke needs is that one second, that one moment where the Genjutsu takes hold and paralyzes either Alibaba or Ichigo in order for him or Yusuke to capitalize on and secure a knockout or a killing blow.

I'm so glad you mentioned Ichigo's inner Zanpakuto spirits. It's the main reason I wanted to introduce anime feats into this debate. As because of this, not only have Ichigo and their partners encountered genjutsu-like illusions, but they also have learned how to counteract and break them. (Episode 255). So at its core, Sasuke's illusions aren't too different. Ichigo can even recognize the feeling of potent illusions on his own given that he's seen the effects of those under Kyouka Suigetsu and react instantly to it. So I don't think it will be all too difficult for him to understand and do what he needs to do to break out.

Despite that though, remember that I have access to his full hollow here, who has shown to surface when Ichigo is in grave danger, about to take a final blow, or effectively dead (unresponsive to reality in the case of genjutsu. Surely a situation where Ichigo is under genjutsu (and thus unable to respond) and about to take a fatal blow would be cause for the hollow to appear and save his life correct? Just like how it did with Byakuya:

No Caption Provided

Suffice it to say, I believe Ichigo has suitable counters to dealing with genjutsu, which by your own words is not an opening move for Sasuke. So we won't have to worry about "Genjutsu GG" at the start of the fight.

Amaterasu/Chidori:

Amaterasu is a great move and a powerful ability, however Sasuke doesn't use it as a sort of finisher or "big flashy move". It's usually accompanied to aid in battle alongside others, to help create an opening, or to help himself get out of fishy situations. That's not to say Sasuke won't use it or any of its variants in battle or open with them, which will be touched upon in the Skills, Tactics, and Intelligence section

The Chidori itself is a super powerful thrust, gathering lightning chakra in one's hand and primarily used in assassination (Ch.113). The Chidori has since become Sasuke's trump card to use in battle, favored way more than his Clan's usual use of Fireball Jutsu. This last ability (running lightning/chakra through his blade) could help him to counter Alibaba's sword if it gets to a sword fight between the two of them, help deter any close-quarters fights that Sasuke doesn't want to get into or finds himself in, or even paralyze either Ichigo or Alibaba with a surprise attack while they are dealing with Yusuke.

In terms of the battle, I find Amaterasu the most tedious to deal with given its nature. However, in terms of heat and damage for both the Chidori and Amaterasu, I do believe Ichigo can last long enough to blow it away (given his feats of tanking the heat from his own Getsuga Tensho throughout the series) with his reiatsu or physical pressure should it land for the flames; and for the Chidori, it should be enough to show that he at least endure through the blows, if not face tank them outright. Aside from that, Amaterasu can be evaded or even countered. As shown by the Raikage and Juubito respectively. In that respect, Ichigo can deal with it in the same way he can deal with Susanoo's projectiles.

As a last resort for Chidori however, post-Quilge Ichigo was shown to awaken his Quincy reiatsu, showing his Quincy Blut being able to protect him from piercing attacks with the strength of Yhwach behind them, even to a soft spot like the neck:

No Caption Provided

A Comparison of Fighting Tactics:

So we've seen Sasuke since his very earliest days be the one to capitalize on the first opening he sees, whether that be in a fight to the death against the leader of a nation by taking out someone in the back or throwing knives and shuriken at the face and head area of a person talking to another in a training exercise with his new Jounin instructor. We've seen Sasuke utilize his intelligence, awareness, and keen analytic eye used in a completely random fight, being able to discern an opponent's abilities, test counter measures he set up, and set up attack plans two steps ahead while cornering his opponent into a tight spot. We've seen Sasuke analyze and pick up on attack patterns of his allies and use his own tactics once he believes his opponent to be catching on to what's going on. All of this, combined with his other abilities, makes Sasuke the deadliest person here.

While all of this is quite impressive for Sasuke, I won't deny it. You seem to have missed that I acknowledged how Ichigo can turn this advantage against his opponents and has explicitly shown to do so. Allow me to remind you;

Ichigo knows his weaknesses. He knows he is limited compared to others, and because of that is often underestimated something which will likely happen considering his opponent‘s own experiences as well as each of your subconscious notions of Ichigo being a one-trick pony:

No Caption Provided

When fighting Ichigo takes note of what he has in his arsenal and its limitations. He even goes so far as to fully sell out to the limitations that he lets Jackie believe she completely saw through on her own. Once that's down and she fully breaks it down, she moves to attack believing she knows just how to counter it, which she does. To her dismay, however, Ichigo holds no falsehoods on his power and reveals he knows his drawbacks. This leaves Jackie wide open to his attack as she was fooled completely. This is a prime example of Ichigo's battle sense.

Against someone like Sasuke, who you pride on being able to figure out his opponents quickly, this could even turn into a quick advantage for Ichigo as he can capitalize on Sasuke thinking he knows what he is going to do next, and then change it up entirely, which is exactly what he did with Jackie here. Ichigo himself also takes time to study his opponents and their moves as I posted in my opener; the prime example being Ulquiorra:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Bleach 341: The Envy
  • In the first scan, we see Ichigo can essentially watch Ulquiorra movements as if they were slow motion (not really) and then react to each of them; then placing his evasive moves to not incur any wasted steps.
  • From there he can analyze, perceive, and then catch Ulq's arm and then overpower it.
  • Then to end the exchange, as Ulq is taken aback by what happened, Ichigo slashes him across the chest

Now, what does this show? Ichigo's ability of being able to break down his opponent's mid-fight, and then use his physicality to overwhelm and put them in a position where his sword can do maximum damage. Combining that with his Hi-Pressure tactics, CQC skill, power and versatility creates a deadly bruiser that could spell huge danger for anyone here, namely someone who by your presentation wouldn't the necessary physical showings to deal with it.

===============================================

The Dark Moon Stroke Chapter VI/Fundamentals II: Current Strategy

Despite you both going after Maestro and I, neither of you addressed the teamwork factors we presented, at least in terms of explaining why certain factors wouldn't work here or there or even an in-depth explanation of how they help each other. It feels more like you guys are approaching this as two 1v1's which happens to be in the same area. And because of that, I feel like we still have a definite advantage in that area. Allow me to continue expanding/reiterate on how Ichigo can help and/or benefit from Alibaba.

In terms of pure distraction, Ichigo can create speed phantoms:

No Caption Provided

Boxing an opponent (s) into a localized space, and while forcing them to figure out which Ichigo is real, it creates opportunities for Ichigo and Alibaba to attack. Which is compounded on by again, Ichigo's Hi-Pressure Tactics and exploitation of openings be it an enemy or ally-made opening:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5
  • Scan 1-2: With Ulquiorra, he leads with the same tactic as he did in the above scans with Grimjoww, forcing Ulq back in strength, and then we he dodges releases a large blast of Getsuga in an attempt to hit him. (Chapter 344)
  • Scan 3-4: With Aizen, right after being hit by Yamamoto's suicide attack, Ichigo capitalizes on the distraction; then used a massive blast to slice open his upper body and then continue his assault (Chapter 396)
  • Scan 5: With Yhwach, he unleashes a massive blast obscuring his vision momentarily and forcing him into a defensive stance, which Ichigo follows with a combination of speed and strength to keep the pressure on. (Chapter 676)

The main plan of attack is using these strategies to burst down both Yusuke and Sasuke while forcing personal exchanges that take a bigger chunk out of you than us. Forcing them up-close while high-risk, temporarily negates much of their ranged arsenal, something you both put a heavy focus on, thus creating more opportunities for us to land decisive blows against you.

Anyway, I'll leave it here for now, and invite everyone to step up their game. Looking forward to this round!

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Darthjhawk

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Menos_Kegare

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Oooo, Zanpakuto Rebellion arc feats. Was wondering when someone would bring those up, lol.

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defiant_will

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Darthjhawk

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@defiant_will: Oh cool, thought they showed up weird. now it’s your turn 😈

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Keep it up lads 😈😈😈

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FaradaySloth

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Darthjhawk the moment any second round begins:

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FullMetalEmprah

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That post for Ichigo was amazing, I especially liked the focus on teamwork, his skill and battle intelligence, as well as countering the genjutsu argument pretty well!

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Co-Boss

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Wtf, a cav of 4 awesome debaters (if gil is an alt of who I think it is), 4 awesome characters who are actually in the same tier of one another, a 2v2 cav and the posts have been amazing. How have I not seen this yet.

TAEP & t4v please, this is really good

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GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps

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@co-boss: For the record, I'm not an alt of anyone. Sorry to disappoint lol, tho out of curiosity, who do you think I was an alt of?

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Co-Boss

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#48  Edited By Co-Boss

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps: there was someone else named Gilgamesh that was a decent debater who I haven't seen in awhile that I just assumed was going by a new name. Anyway, loved your yuyu post, keep it up man.

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GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps

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@co-boss: Ah I see, that'd make sense. Thanks for the high praise :)