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2021 High Tier PyP 2nd Edition Round 1: BladeofFury vs WhatHappened OPEN FOR VOTES
This argument states that nothing except Ragnarok can stop Hela - not absolute zero, not planet-busting explosions - nothing. You haven't even tried to dispute it (didn't even call it an NLF or anything), and obviously it wouldn't be fair to wait until the final post so that I can't defend it. So, for the purposes of this particular discussion, you have no win condition whatsoever. I could end the post here since nothing more is really needed, but let's continue.
This is how debating on CV works? You say a NLF statement about a MCU Thor villain and if I don't address it then it becomes fact? I don't think so. Maybe, just maybe, the proof is in the pudding. But if that’s how you want to play then fine. The narration states that she gains power from Asgard, which Hela is not on right now because you squandered your perk “Choose the Battefield”. So Hela is actually not unstoppable and far less powerful than you are debating her as. Here’s Hela on earth, with multiple tears in costume and looking disheveled. Here’s her on Asgard. Notice how she immediately regenerates and is strengthened because of her proximity to Asgard’s energy. But since Asgard is not even in the same universe as the battlefield we’re on, Hela is powerless here.
Monarch
I'll skip to here because I want to clear up some things first before we get started on rebuttals. You need to know your place.
You initially argued that destroying Monarch's armor wouldn't beat him, but rather result in Hela's demise. Now you dropped all that, switching entirely to "Captain Cold blitzes." Considering you haven't even tried to dispute Hela's ability to impale Monarch with MFTL blades, this 8-pointer of yours is effectively useless for the purposes of this discussion.
I didn't drop anything, I was debating all points to force you to understand what is abundantly clear: You have no win condition. Now Cold has been demoted by the ruling of the OP, so congratulations Cold doesn't blitz anymore, and he has his standard gun. Hela still dies in the end.
No it's one of multiple winning strategies that I mentioned for like 1 sentence in the opener, let's not pretend it's the only one. Again, you haven't even put up an argument against Hela simply running up and stabbing Monarch, so I don't need to defend this, but no, the OP clarified that Cold does have his gun. And if all else fails and they're at a stalemate for literal eons, is trying someone else's weapon really far-fetched? I think not.
As I've said before, you're getting too big for your britches. I'm sorry I didn't cover every single ridiculous thing you brought up, so let me make it abundantly clear to you. Hela is INCAPABLE of damaging Monarch with her attacks. She has ZERO feats of effecting herald tier characters, in fact she was completely helpless trying to hurt the multi-mountain / island level Surtur before he oneshotted her.
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While Monarch nosold 3 Supermans and 3 Wonder Women at once: https://m.imgur.com/4iuQOi6
So no, she cannot "stab" Monarch with anything. Next is the gun itself. Absolute Zero is an impossible temperature that affects matter at the molecular and atomic level, which is a durability ignoring power that would spell doom for any other opponent. But this is not just any character, this is Monarch, a heavily amped and evil version of Captain Atom: https://i.imgur.com/PPE1Pl6.jpg
As such, he is IMMUNE to matter manipulation and effects, as we see when Captain Atom had to fight the old original Monarch (Hank Hall): https://i.imgur.com/5k2UrX1.jpg
This also explains why Captain Atom is immune to magic, you can't exactly turn a man powered & protected by the Quantum Field into a bunny rabbit: https://i.imgur.com/FqMltn3.jpg
So the most basic function of Absolute Zero wouldn't even affect this character, his atoms and molecules can't even be affected by any means besides himself due to the nature of his powers. Beyond that, he himself is a master matter manipulator himself, with the entire Quantum Field at his fingertips, so again freezing atoms solid against a guy who manipulates atoms is a stupid idea: https://i.imgur.com/OeaDFEj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/whqNuGm.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/QCQj4WI.jpg
So no, your character cannot successfully use my teammate's weapon against myself, and as I've said before that's extremely out of character for Hela to do in any case. You have shown no proof that she uses this tactic on opponents she doesn't know, and especially a literal cold gun which is a weapon she has ZERO familiarity with.
I will make it clear for the readers and audience that may be reading this, because you need to understand, right now.
You have no winning strategy!
The reason Hela's blades didn't always work against Thor is because he dodged or blocked them, so it made sense for her to approach and try to hit him. In this case, however, they wouldn't work because they'd get frozen in midair by some kind of invisible barrier, so it wouldn't make sense for Hela to run straight into it. She would at least be cautious in her approach, and once she comes close enough to start feeling the chills, she can... idk... stop coming closer? Genius. But of course it won't come to this - Hela will blitz him before he generates the cold field.
The cold field is invisible, so a TK barrier is indeed its most likely appearance, but once she gets caught in the barrier she is frozen like a fly in a spider's web. In any case, Cold has been effectively neutered by OP so you have your win against him. Like I've said before, this changes nothing in the end. She won't even know the gun's specific abilities because she never seen them in action before, which means another reason why she wouldn't ever use the strategy you are suggesting.
If Hela blitz Cold before he puts up his barrier, she has absolutely zero reason to pick up his gun which was never used or demonstrated capabilities. As far as she knows, those guns are guns and fire bullets.
So now that we've established that your "team" has zero means of winning, we can move on.
Ice
According to the OP, only standard gear/abilities are allowed in this tourney. So: Cold still has his gun. He has his New 52 ice powers, since they were standard for a decent chunk of the New 52. He does not have his (stronger) Rebirth ice powers, since he only had them temporarily in a single story (Rogue's Reign). Same way Deathstroke doesn't get the speed-force amp, since he only had it temporarily in a single story. So we should ignore all those King Cold feats against supercharged Flash in Rebirth, but keep his feats against regular Flash in the New 52. Not that it really matters, Snart gets stomped regardless of the feats he's allowed to use.
The OP has confirmed it, so I can’t argue against his direct commandments. But that’s ok, I've covered this already in my opening statement for this post.
Cold
No you haven't. What you've argued until this point is that Cold keeps up with Flash via his cold field. I quote:So your point was that the cold field would slow Hela down just like it slowed down Flash, allowing Snart to tag her. But now that my argument is Hela blitzing before he activates the cold field, you suddenly suggest that he never even needed it. Apparently, Cold could fight gazillion times FTL Flash "with his raw speed alone."
I was referring to King Cold when he fought supercharged Flash in a final epic battle. I already posted the scans of him doing so long ago. But since I cannot use those feats, the point is moot.
Now later in this post you brought up a new showing of how "Cold perceived and reacted to a bloodlusted Flash" who was controlled by a virus, except if you read the scan you posted…
"The virus ain't quite as good as they are with their powers... Don't think I ever hit the Flash straight on before like that."
- Your character
Context is a wonderful thing. Now you could've argued that even though Flash was slower than usual, he was still going pretty fast. Perhaps you could've provided some speed feats from when he was controlled by the virus, or perhaps you could've tossed in some Wonder Woman showings in order to scale him from her. Anything. But no, all you've shown is Captain Cold tagging a version of Flash who was slower to an unknown extent, and admitting that he could never tag regular Flash like that. Since you cannot use new feats or arguments in your final post, that's all we can go on.
Captain Cold didn’t say Flash was slower, he is saying Flash didn't dodge as usual. Because Flash wasn't in his right mind, he was like a zombie. Hence the "Not as good at their powers" statement. But yes, thanks for providing more ammo for the feat, since Post Flashpoint Wonder Woman is pretty consistently Kryptonian tier (Superman is above average Kryptonian men in raw strength and power): https://i.imgur.com/qKi8eAa.jpg
https://imgur.com/a/K2qzH
https://i.imgur.com/nKBLq0y.jpg
https://imgur.com/a/z0Lw5bS
https://imgur.com/a/7aQQy
https://imgur.com/a/UyHtLVv
https://i.imgur.com/DHM4OIX.jpg
This is an idea of how fast Flash needs to go to seriously hurt high tier Wonder Woman: https://i.imgur.com/9973UHb.jpg
Flash was overwhelming Wonder Woman with a blitz, there's no possible way a street level speed character can see him at all, Flash would be invisible.
Cold says it himself, he is far faster than a mere human because he routinely fights someone that moves at light speed: https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/10/103530/2248766-27.jpg
This is all to prove that Cold is indeed far beyond street level in base speed, contrary to popular belief. But obviously that alone isn't enough here. Fact is, Cold no longer has feats when he fought supercharged Flash so this discussion has been rendered academic. Let's move on.
Flash fast
Right, but Barry being roughly light speed is a heck of a lot more consistent than him being gazillions of times FTL as you suggest. Almost nothing is totally consistent in comics, but some things are supported by more evidence than others. With the expectation that you won't post new feats in your final post, I will refrain from providing new anti-feats in this one. Instead, I'll address the feats you've already posted.
When Barry goes all out he is indeed that crazy level of speed, why in the world would he move that fast on an average day? That's like saying Superman's average punches are hard enough to destroy moons and planets. A stupid position to have, don't you think?
He says he needs 30 seconds to finish evacuation, but we don’t know how many people he already evacuated. If we assume that he only just started, it's MFTL (still nowhere near as fast as Hela though). If we assume that he's finishing up, it's not even light speed. Considering all the other evidence for him being roughly light speed, we should make the latter assumption.
How do you go from MFTL to not even light speed? You don't know how many people are left either, but it was obviously a lot based on Batman. Either way, he's faster than light, unlike your argument that he's only light speed.
He didn't move them 4 miles away. It is later shown that Barry didn't go far from where Captain Atom absorbed the blast:
Looks like a few hundred feet at best. Not to mention, Captain Atom flew closer to the bomb from Barry's original position, so the distance Barry covered from his original position is even less than his distance from Captain Atom in the scans above. The fact that Barry was still hanging around the starting point several microseconds after seeing the blast (despite only moving people about a hundred feet away) means he was going well below the speed of light.
The narration specifically stated that Flash was saving the men from radiation and blast force, so maybe I missed this part. Bad writer, and yes I agree that this feat has issues. But other issues have Barry running 2,087 miles in 1/1,000 of a second, aka 11.2x light speed casually just to get pizza.
So again, he's casually FTL whenever he wants to, and he can go much faster when it's necessary.
This isn't as good as it may seem, since even home computers can perform billions of operations per second and we often consider them slow. My own processor (Intel Core i5-4690) is 18.8 gigaflops, meaning it performs 18.8 billion operations per second, yet I've called it slow in the past. The Watchtower's computer is 5.3 million times faster than mine, so we would expect Flash to be at least 5.3 million times faster than me, but that's nowhere near light speed. We get similar results if we look at Cyborg's minute-decade comparison. There are about 5 million minutes in a decade, meaning the Watchtower's computer was over 5 million times faster than whatever home computer Vic was referring to. If us regular humans could call that home computer slow, then someone over 5 million times faster could call the Watchtower's computer slow. Since you don't need to be light speed to be over 5 million times faster than us, Flash didn't need to be light speed for that showing, let alone MFTL.
According to this article, the human "brain can perform at most about a thousand basic operations per second, or 10 million times slower than the computer. The computer also has huge advantages over the brain in the precision of basic operations." http://m.nautil.us/issue/59/connections/why-is-the-human-brain-so-efficient
1000*10billion= 1e13
1e13 * 100 thousand trillion = 1e30
1e30 / 1000 = 1e27
So Cyborg's computer is 1 OCTILLION times faster than the human brain! That's MMFTL, comparable to, you guessed it, moving at Femtosecond speed.
Why use the figures provided in the scan when you can scale to a cherrypicked fancalc of another character across years of comics that you've admitted are inconsistent and get 27 bazillion times FTL, right? 1 trillion frames per second is famous for capturing the speed of light. In fact we need it to perceive the propagation of light: If Barry and Wally were moving much faster than light, a trillion frames wouldn't even be enough to perceive them, let alone tell that they were arguing, so clearly they weren't moving much faster than light.
And yet, the entire multiverse was being effected from their speed. It's obvious that they were moving MFTL, it was faster than anyone has ever gone before, including superheroes that are FTL themselves such as Superman who never threatened to destroy the multiverse with his speed in his entire career.
You also try to scale Barry from Wally who's apparently a MFTL picosecond timer, but to prove it you post this, where it explicitly states that he only went lightspeed despite not holding back. Perhaps you were thinking of this, where it says "billionth of a second," but that's a nanosecond - a thousand times slower than a picosecond, and a million times slower than Hela. So the very feats you provided to prove Flash MFTL - suggest that he's not.
You don't understand how a Infinite Mass Punch work. It's properly used when you go just below the speed of light, where you get the most bang for your buck. There has never been a MFTL IMP like the Vine says on many threads, the actual punches must be at that specific speed. Flash moves within the span of picoseconds all the time, but his attacks aren't always necessarily at that speed due to the nature of the Infinite Mass Punch.
Anyway, since you cannot post new feats in the last post, let's do a final count. Between the 4 showings from my previous post that you didn't dispute and this last one that you brought up yourself, we have 5 feats that put Barry's limit at around light speed. Then we have the other 3 showings that you brought up, which aren't any faster than light but don't put a limit on Barry either, and lastly we have 2 self-wank statements from Barry that suggest he's millions or billions of times faster than light. It's pretty clear what the outliers are.
I covered all of that, and I'll post as many feats as I please, thank you very much.
But as you said, "this entire argument is academic" because Cold can't react to Flash in the first place, so it doesn't even matter how fast Barry is.
Cold could easily react when he had his amp, which is what I was debating. Now that he doesn't, things are different. Hela no longer has a reason to even consider the idea of picking up Cold's gun because she never seen it in action and a bullet, even an imagined ice bullet is incredibly useless compared to her own power (Hela never used guns in the movie but her slaveboy Skurge does).
TLDR: Monarch gets blitzed and one-shotted as you've made no attempt to establish his speed or durability. Snart gets blitzed before he generates his cold field - he's not millions of times FTL as you say and neither is Flash, so even if he had his cold field up, there's nothing to suggest it can stop someone as fast as Hela. Oh and you haven't even tried to address the argument that makes Hela out to be literallyinvincible,and we're already on the final post, so the only one without a winning strategy here is you.
Lmao don't even start with me, you have no winning strategy AT ALL. Your presumptuousness is your weakness, and the voters will see it with their own eyes the ultimate question:
Who is the better debator? Who convinced you more? You decide!
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