2020 High Tier SBT 1st Edition RD1: Geekryan vs Thevoidofdeath

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emperorthanos-

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#1 emperorthanos-  Moderator  Online

Well folks it is time my the first round of the Squad Builders Tourney.

@geekryan

Characters:

  • Martian Manhunter - Versatile (4)
  • Invisible Woman - Energy Manipulator (2)
  • Kuurth/Juggernaut - Brawler (2)
  • Zatanna - Hax Lord (1)
  • Jean Grey - Psychic (1)
No Caption Provided

Perks:

  • Morals Off (8)
  • Basic Knowledge (5)
  • 1 hour of prep (1)
  • Spider Sense - Martian Manhunter (1)
No Caption Provided

@thevoidofdeath

Characters:

  • Hax lord: Raven Pre 52 to New 52 (5)
  • Gear User: Wonder Woman with full gear and energy creation (5)

PERKS:

  • morals off (8)
  • basic knowledge (5)
  • Mind link (2)

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. Time Jumping, remnants, speeding up ones own time is allowed. Other forms of time manip is banned.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Power Copying/stealing.
  8. No Summons, constructs or any other fodder stronger than 616 Bleeding Edge Iron Man.
  9. Summons are limited to 200
  10. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote is unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet inside a Solar System like others, with no other people on it except for the fighters.

No Caption Provided

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SMXLR8

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geekryan

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@thevoidofdeath great match-up! Best of luck to you :)

Want me to go first since I have prep?

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TheVoidofDeath

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#4 TheVoidofDeath  Online

@geekryan:

Hello there friend !!! I didn't see the notification , but yes. If you wish to go first go for it ::) best if luck yo you as well:)

P.s I forgot to add a picture of my team whoops lol

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geekryan

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@thevoidofdeath: Awesome, I'll get started on my post. I have already represented all 5 of my characters in previous CaVs/tournaments, so it shouldn't take long for me to just compile them. Fair warning though: because I have 5 characters, it might be a long opener lol

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#6 TheVoidofDeath  Online

@geekryan:

Ah, don't worry you may take as much time needed:) Indeed, you have quite a few characters , but I'll enjoy reading the openings:)

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Tag after each and every post

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#8 TheVoidofDeath  Online
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#9 emperorthanos-  Moderator  Online
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TheVoidofDeath

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@emperorthanos-: can't before next week

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#14  Edited By geekryan

Post #1 - Opener

I have five characters to cover, so I'll do my best to keep this short and try to stick to their most relevant feats for the purpose of this battle. I'll also be skipping introductions/history because all my characters are pretty well known.

Since I have a lot of feats to cover, and in order to avoid making my post look massive and clunky, I will mostly be posting my scans as links.

Martian Manhunter (J'onn)

No Caption Provided

Here is Martian Manhunter's CV page.

He is the most versatile of all my characters, which is why he fills the role of the Versatile team member.

As an added bonus, because I have the morals off perk, ET has given me permission to use his Fernus feats. Those feats will be in a separate section at the end. Fernus is essentially an alternate personality of J'onn's that fights without holding back.

For starters, MMH is stated to be as strong or stronger than Superman:

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1) Superman admits he is afraid to fight MMH and declares him to be the most powerful being on Earth

2) Black Lightning says MMH is probably "badder" than Superman

3) Stated to be able to kick Superman's butt

4) MMH's power exceeds Superman's

5) MMH admits he is as powerful as Superman

All of these statements are backed up by feats as well, which I can get into if need be.

Physicals

Strength

Durability/Regeneration

Speed

And we also have all the fights where his combat speed is enough to keep up with the likes of Flash, Superman, Shazam, Black Adam, Sinestro, Darkseid, etc.

Powers

Telepathy

Telekinesis

Phasing

Martian Vision

Fernus

Kuurth

No Caption Provided

Kuurth, the Breaker of Stone and one of the Serpent's Worthy, took Juggernaut as its host during the Fear Itself event. For most of this time, Kuurth also had access to Juggernaut's powers as he was still the Avatar of Cyttorak.

Here is Kuurth's CV page, and here is Juggernaut's CV page.

Juggernaut's shtick is that he is extremely durable and practically unstoppable. While in possession of the Hammer of Kuurth, he became even more durable and more unstoppable. His role will be that of the brawler/tank of my team. As such, I will be focusing more on his durability feats rather than the rest of his abilities (for now).

I'll stop there for now, but there is a lot more I can show.

Invisible Woman (Sue Storm)

No Caption Provided

Here is Invisible Woman's CV page.

As the energy manipulator of my team, Sue will focus on utilizing her invisibility and force fields.

Invisibility

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1) Turns herself, someone else, and a car invisible, and maintains it while driving.

2) Turns a small plane (but not the people inside) invisible

3) Turns her opponents invisible in order to confuse them

4) Turns Dr Doom's armour invisible

She can also blind people by turning off their optic nerves...turn invisible things visible...and she can naturally see invisible things.

For Sue's best invisibility feat:

No Caption Provided

Makes an entire planet invisible, for an extended period of time.

And this is definitely not an outlier, as she has done it on a moon-sized scale before, albeit with effort.

Force Fields

Sue's main form of offence and defence. But before we get into the offence/defence, let's go over some fun things she can do with her force fields:

Now for some of her best defensive feats:

And lastly, one of her best feats:

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Maintains a force field around a planet for an extended period of time, and it even tanks a few strikes from evil Sentry before she drops it.

Sue can do a lot of things with her force fields in terms of offence, but since she is morals off, she won't be opposed to using internal hax or deadly attacks:

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1) Can cause an instant embolism (stroke), crush a windpipe, fill lungs, and drive a force field spike through the heart

2) Threatens to put air bubbles in Doom's brain

3) Filling an amped Thing's throat and lungs.

So basically, Sue can shield from your attacks and take you out in a number of ways. Since Wonder Woman is severely lacking in piercing/slashing durability (compared to blunt force), a lot of these attacks will kill her.

Jean Grey

No Caption Provided

Here is Jean's CV page. Jean Grey is considered to be one of, if not the most, powerful psychics in Marvel. Referred to as an Omega-Level Telepath and a Psionic of the Highest Order, her telepathy rivals that of Charles Xavier himself.

As the psychic of my team, Jean will focus on using her planetary telepathy and powerful telekinesis to defend my team and attack yours.

I will be using feats from both Adult Jean and Teen Jean.

Telekinesis

Some offensive feats:

Now for some shields/force fields:

And for the last part of TK, some internal hax. Since Jean is morals off, she will be willing to use internal hax to kill.

Telepathy

Until (and only if) we decide to get into a psychic battle debate between J'onn + Jean vs. Raven, I'll keep this part short and sweet.

Zatanna

No Caption Provided

Here is Zatanna's CV page.

As the Hax Lord of my team, Zatanna will focus on, well, hax stuff.

Zatanna is considered one of DC's most powerful magic-users. Her magic is practically limitless; pretty much anything she can say backwards will happen. She has very few limitations, speed and plot being the main two. Her speed is quite human, as are her physicals. Due to PIS, she is often limited in what she can do. The good thing about a tournament/CaV is that no PIS is involved ;)

Although she often casts her spells by speaking backwards, this is not something she has to do. On many occasions, she has cast spells without speaking at all. She mostly just speaks backwards as a tribute to her father.

She is so powerful that she can turn off gravity, turn night into day, and turn rain into flowers:

No Caption Provided

Zatanna has also awakened the universe and manipulated space & time to command the Seven Soldiers to attack.

She also stabilized a hole in space & time

She raised Metropolis from ruin:

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One of her greatest feats was escaping Nanda Parbat, a mystical place that was threatening to tear reality apart:

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These feats aren't combat-applicable, but it's just to show how truly powerful Zatanna is with her magic. Her DC isn't too great but that's where hax comes into play.

Now for some combat-applicable stuff. Zatanna has MANY options available to her in combat:

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1) Explodes an opponent

2) Puts someone to sleep

3) Stops Despero

4) Overrides Circe's magic and splits apart her construct

That's all for now.

Perks

Morals Off

My team will be 100% willing to kill their opponents by any means necessary. Instead of fighting to KO or incap, they will fight to kill.

This is a perk both of our teams have, but I do think it is more useful for my team. Wonder Woman has loose morals and doesn't really mind killing, so it doesn't change much for her. On the other hand, Martian Manhunter, Jean Grey, Zatanna, and Invisible Woman almost never kill.

Basic Knowledge

My team will have basic knowledge of your team, as much that is presented on their Wikia pages. However, Martian Manhunter and Zatanna have both teamed up with Wonder Woman on many occasions, so they likely already know a lot more than what a Wikia page would give. I don't recall any occasions where Raven has worked with MMH or Zatanna, but since she is still a DC character and associated with the Justice League, they likely know a lot about her too (especially Zatanna).

Again, this is a perk we both have, but since I have 3 Marvel characters that Wonder Woman & Raven would not know about, it suits you a bit more.

Spider Sense (Martian Manhunter)

I had 1 perk point leftover so I decided to get Spider Sense instead of the other options. Since Martian Manhunter is the fastest and most valuable member of my team, I decided to give him the perk since he would utilize it best.

It acts as a limited form of precognition, giving the user a slight heads up in regards to incoming danger or threat.

Here are a few examples:

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With J'onn's superior speed and telepathy, the Spider Sense will allow him to anticipate attacks much more effectively than Spider-Man could.

Prep

Everyone except Kuurth will have a role to play in the one hour of prep, so I will divide this section by characters and explain what they will each be doing.

Team

Jean sets up a mind link between her teammates, except for Kuurth. Since Kuurth's mind is basically impenetrable, it wouldn't work anyways. Setting up a mind link will allow my team to communicate with each other telepathically, which is faster and more efficient than talking. It also allows Jean & J'onn to easily defend their teammate's minds should they come under psychic attack.

Jean can create mind links very casually and to more complex levels than other telepaths:

No Caption Provided

Jean transfers her psychic link with Xavier over to Scott, shuts down her senses, and forges a new telepathic connection to Angel before the Leader could disable her powers.

Jean can even share knowledge amongst minds:

No Caption Provided

Through the mind link, my team can quickly discuss their own powers, abilities, strengths, weaknesses, etc. Since Jean and Sue know each other, and J'onn and Zatanna know each other, this won't take long.

Next, they discuss their opponents. Although they have basic knowledge already, J'onn and Zatanna can provide additional information about Wonder Woman and Raven. Once they know who they are going up against, they can start to strategize and then do their own prep.

Kuurth is unlikely to cooperate with the rest of my team, but that won't matter. His role as an unstoppable tank does not require any teamwork.

Zatanna

Zatanna will be doing the most for prep, but it can all feasibly be done within an hour.

One of Zatanna's more uncommon powers: divination. She can meditate or use a special deck of Tarot cards to see into the future. This divination isn't too specific and isn't as powerful as what someone like Madame Xanadu can foresee, but it is simple enough to give her concepts of what will happen and who might be involved.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

In this example, she foresees the Trinity War. She sees someone dying, Constantine arguing with Batman/Superman, superheroes fighting each other, and Constantine shaking hands with Lex Luthor. All of this ends up coming true. Now I'm not saying that she will be able to see specific parts about the upcoming battle, but she will be at least able to have a general idea of what will happen, especially since we know who we are facing due to basic knowledge. This will allow us to better prepare for the fight. Due to the telepathic link, Zatanna will automatically relay this information to her team.

Next, Zatanna will make the team (except Kuurth) magically invisible and create a decoy illusion of them as Zatanna does in this scan. These decoy illusions won't be a physical threat (they cannot cause any physical harm and disappear upon being attacked), but they will distract your team.

Lastly, Zatanna will then enchant the area around us, putting up protective enchantments as she did with her mansion. As stated by the Nightmare Imp, the enchantments aren't just on the mansion itself, but extend to the area beyond the fence, meaning it can affect an area and not just the building. Those who cross into the enchanted area are teleported hundreds of miles away and transformed into a mollusk for an hour. Realistically, she could cover as much area as she wants with this spell, but to avoid any arguments about size, I would say her enchantment could at least cover the area of land her mansion is on, which is quite large, at least 500 square feet (the size of an average mansion). So, if either Wonder Woman or Raven enter the area, they will be teleported far away and transmuted, unless they have strong enough magic resistances to withstand Zatanna's level of magic.

Jean Grey

Jean will enter her Pink Form. This form combines her telekinesis and telepathy into a psychic/pink form that passively absorbs the psychic energy from everyone around her. She can actively absorb energy from opponents to empower her form, but she can also passively just absorb the psychic energy from her teammates without handicapping them in any way. Martian Manhunter would give off a massive amount of psychic energy, while Invisible Woman, Zatanna, and Kuurth would give off very little. Because the psychic energy from her Pink Form surrounds her, it essentially acts as a protective layer around her body that should theoretically be as powerful as her combined TK & TP. Here are some feats for her Pink Form:

The first time she did it, she was able to match Gladiator:

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She did it against Xavier Jr, an evil alternate timeline son of Charles Xavier:

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She did it against the Poisons, a hive mind of symbiotic psychic entities. Jean had been partially assimilated by the Poisons but managed to enter her Pink Form and drain all of the Poisons (even the ones on Earth, due to her connection to them) until they crumbled and died. She then used the psychic energy to reconstitute a new body for herself:

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She did it against the Kree:

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She used a weaker version of her Pink Form and stalemated Ultimate Dr Doom (who was Sorcerer Supreme of his Earth):

No Caption Provided

She used it against an amped Magneto, but he backed down:

No Caption Provided

And lastly, she has used it against Galactus, but there were extenuating circumstances that allowed her to do this. It involved Jean absorbing the psychic energy from the inhabitants of the planet they were on, from Terrax, from Galactus, and from the Phoenix Force. I also believe Galactus was not well-fed at the time, and all her attack did was stagger him. I'm not using this as a feat, but I thought I would show it anyways.

No Caption Provided

Jean has done this with varying amounts of psionic energy. However, it has been said that all living beings give off psychic energy. In Marvel, planets themselves give off psychic energy. So she will passively be absorbing psychic energy from her team and the planet, and then once your team spawns, she will actively absorb their psychic energy as well, weakening them and powering herself. It is hard to quantify what this amount of psychic energy will allow her to do, but she will still be more powerful than her base form nonetheless.

Lastly, right before the battle begins, Jean will start sending out a telepathic signal in order to mask/hide my team (except Kuurth). Once your team spawns, they will be affected by it. This is essentially invisibility done via TP.

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1) Sneaks into someone's house

2) Masks the X-Men from Mr Sinister and his Marauders for a sneak attack

3) Psychic nudge on a populated beach to hide her costume

Invisible Woman

Pretty simple: she makes herself, Zatanna, and Jean Grey invisible. Right before the battle begins, she puts up a force field around herself and the others.

Martian Manhunter

Also pretty simple: he goes invisible and intangible.

Strategy

Once the battle begins, your team will see Zatanna's decoy illusions of my team while my real team is invisible through multiple means (Sue's invisibility, Zatanna's magic, Jean's telepathy). Kuurth will not be invisible.

As Raven is arguably the biggest threat of your team, she will be the focus of Zatanna, Jean, and Sue. They are going to target her right off the bat with telepathy, magic, and internal attacks. Raven is quite hax, but without prep and without a way to do much once the battle begins, she is being taken down immediately.

Kuurth will likely do his own thing and charge at Raven & Wonder Woman, which will serve his purpose of being the tank/distraction. Your team's focus will be on him since my real team will be undetectable. And even if you manage to attack Kuurth, nothing you can do will stop him.

Martian Manhunter's job is to keep Wonder Woman occupied. Since he is starting the battle invisible and intangible, it will be easy for him to initiate an attack on Wonder Woman before she can even react to him. He may even kill her right off the bat, but likely not before Raven goes down.

I don't see this being a long, drawn-out battle. Given my prep, perks, and strategy, your team is going to be assaulted and killed right away before they get the chance to counter.

Conclusion

I went over quite a bit, so let's recap:

  1. Martian Manhunter (+ Fernus' feats) makes him the most powerful and dangerous character on the battlefield. The combination of his physicals and powers makes him a massive threat to your team.
  2. Kuurth, despite the fact that he won't cooperate with my team, will serve his role as an unstoppable, invulnerable, and immensely durable tank with the sole purpose of charging your team and keeping the focus on him.
  3. Invisible Woman's powers of invisibility and force fields provide a lot of support to the team, as well as the option of lethal attacks via internal hax.
  4. Jean Grey's powers of telekinesis and telepathy also provide a lot of support to the team, along with a strong amount of offence via telepathic assault or internal attacks. Her Pink Form is the icing on the cake, allowing her to absorb psychic energy.
  5. Zatanna's magic makes her the most hax character on the battlefield, with plenty of ways to attack, defend, and support.
  6. My team having the morals off perk and basic knowledge means that we will know exactly who we are facing, and we won't hesitate to kill them.
  7. Jean's role during prep is to mind link our team to make it easier for us to share information, discuss strategies, and communicate more efficiently during the battle. Right before the battle begins, she will start sending out a telepathic signal in order to psychically mask us from your team. She will also enter her Pink Form.
  8. Sue's role during prep is to make everyone except Kuurth invisible and set up a force field around herself, Jean, and Zatanna.
  9. Zatanna's role during prep is to divine the future, create decoys of the team, make the team invisible, and enchant the area around us with a protective spell.
  10. Martian Manhunter's role during prep is to go invisible and intangible right before the battle begins.
  11. Once the battle begins, Kuurth charges at you while Zatanna, Jean, and Sue focus on killing Raven and J'onn focuses on killing Wonder Woman.

I know a decent amount about Raven, and a good amount about Wonder Woman. However, I know you love Raven and are very knowledgeable about her, so I'm sure you'll have some good counters. As for Wonder Woman with energy creation, I know nothing about that. This is my strategy for now, but I might tweak it a bit after your opener, based on what you present for Raven and Wonder Woman.

As it stands right now, I see this battle ending very quickly and very badly for your team. Feel free to try and prove me wrong ;)

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smh rt debating

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TheVoidofDeath

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@geekryan:

Well done , I loved your opener my friend!!! Stay tuned I'll be responding in the next day or two :)

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#20  Edited By geekryan

@professorrespect said:

smh rt debating

When you have 5 characters to cover, it cuts time way too much for me not to lol

And how could I not take advantage of the all hard work that RT makers put in?!

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@geekryan:

Well done , I loved your opener my friend!!! Stay tuned I'll be responding in the next day or two :)

Thank you! Sounds good

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#26  Edited By TheVoidofDeath  Online

Raven The Mystic Telempathic Raven

Raven is the half-demon daughter of the multiversal demon lord, Trigon the Terrible.

Demon Raven

White Raven (Capped we won't be using her high-end feats .. like that omniversal feat lol)

No Caption Provided

Abilities

Arcane Knowledge, Telepathy, Empathy, Magic, Teleportation, Telekinesis Astral Projection Chronokinesis Magic, Electrokinesis, Cryokinesis, Transmutation/Matter Manipulation, Sense Abilities soul manipulation, Darkness manipulation, Healing, Absorption, Power nullification, Energy Projection, seeding, force fields, portal generation, Superhuman Strength and Speed.

Weapons

Hand to Hand Combat /Strength

The proven instance came when she took down an armed group of occultists through a mix of combat skills and teleportation later taking down her brother Envy in the same manner, she was seen hurling occultists through tombstones and Envy through the stone floor of a church. Raven kicks Donna Troy and claims she's her physical equal. And while she notes this is because of Brother Blood amping Raven, this amp was permanent, which means she still possessed this level of strength even after breaking free of Blood's control, so this feat is perfectly valid.

Speed /Durability /Teleportation (All of her teleports are instantaneous )

  1. She speeds blitzed Belial who could react to Superb
  2. oy and The Flash.
  3. Raven manhandled and evaded attacks from an angered Superboy( when she phases she appears tanigable but isn't and is phased into a another dimension ill come back to explain it
  4. Evaded attacks from flash and Superboy while aiding Trigon
  5. Teleported faster than kid flash
  6. Evaded attacks from Hal Jordan
  7. Evaded attacks from Starfires star bolts
  8. Evaded sniper bullets
  9. Evaded Cyborgs attacks
  10. Evaded attacks from Arial bombardment
  11. Evaded attacks from bombshell
  12. Evaded lightning strikes from Trigon
  13. Raven teleports two helicopters into each other

  14. Raven was as well able to mind control Wally West (more than once and even without him realize that) who's mind work at incredible speeds even in his normal state, or use her soul-self to snatch him away even he was unwiling and facing her, so wasn't an ambush or by surprise. (ILL FIND THE SCAN LATER)
  15. Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
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    Keep in mind with speed feats Raven is able to manifest her soul-self instantaneously, and if her body is knocked unconscious she is still able to use her soul self.

    No Caption Provided

  16. Raven's teleportation is instantaneous:

    No Caption Provided
  17. Raven tanks a blast from Martian Manhunter::) She was able to hold is blast though and were using three versions of Raven here . Kind of confusing when Raven manhandled Superboy and his crazy tk... but Superboy beat up MMh in new 52 ....in annual 001 ... and basically the Titans got into an argument... after what SP did

    No Caption Provided

Telempathics Defensive /Offensive/Psionics

Note for telepaths on the opposite team: The difference lies in Raven's mind being a very hostile place to visit, as has been shown more than once by people trying to get into it... or being exposed to it. In part that's due to how powerful she is, in another is that she is a half-demon. In older versions, her father is partially connected to it and he doesn't like intruders. And Raven herself describes her mind as being ripped and torn from the fabric of reality. Raven does have any additional psionic defenses, Jean nor MMH can just walk in and do whatever they want (Especially with Classic Raven and New 52 )Which I will maintain is highly unlikely considering Raven has her father banging on her mental door nearly constantly. How well Raven can resist is for me based on how well she's able to resist her father who is frequently trying to influence her that way.(She's been doing this since the age of 10)

DEFENSIVE... A serious Raven is completely different ... and you don't want to fight her on the astral plane...

If someone enters her mind and soul self she might do the same but is not necessary, as I said she can do there whatever she pleases,... And Raven's mind and soul is not just complicated, it is a sort of interdimensional nexus.

Don't go for direct tp or possession
Don't go for direct tp or possession

hen the Muse tries to overpower her mind, Raven easily defeats him:

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New Teen Titans Annual #4

Jericho tried to take control of a bloodlusted Raven, but got repelled:

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Raven frees the Titans from the Muse's nightmares:

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Raven frees the hybrids from Mentos' telepathic control:

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e Psycho entered in the mind of an unconscious Raven, you know what happened.She didn't use any fears of dr Psycho for example, she simply incapacitated him and taken him down.

Dr. psycho crippled at an exhausted Raven's defenses.

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Raven confronted Phobia, she not only resisted her attack she unleashed a powerful attack of her own only to hold back at the last instance.

Once Raven confronted Phobia, she not only resisted her attack she unleashed a powerful attack of her own only to hold back at the last instance.

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Later she was able to manipulate Phobia's emotions without her even knowing.

Raven can manipulate the worst fears but is not the only thing she can do. She can make people actually feel, physically, pain and fears (up to dying right away because of that). She can use her soul-self, for which Jean has no counter, to take her down right away.

OFFENSIVE: Can steal emotions from others, rendering them emotionally numb, put people to sleep, read minds , eat emotions , pacify ... force emotions and tp you to a coma state, etc

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/medusa-mask/4055-46530/

The Medusa Mask allows the Psycho-Pirate to promote and project emotions in other people, and during the "Second Crisis" in Animal Man, the mask holds the remnants of the multiverse, with the capability to summon any of the destroyed characters of the countless realities that once existed. Hayden appeared to be consumed by its power and it was left to be worn by former physicist, James Highwater. Hayden would later return as the Psycho-Pirate, with the Medusa Mask in tow. When Hayden upgraded his powers with Neron's influence, the mask's metal would replace half his brain and would manifest as a golden eye patch, though by the time of Hayden's stay in the Slab, it had gone back to its familiar shape. In this capability, Alex Luthor used Psycho-Pirate in his quest to recreate the multiverse until Black Adam killed him by shoving the mask through his head. The mask appeared in the Raven limited series, and though the titular heroine destroyed it, its power lingered, and started affecting scientists researching its schematics.

Raven overcomed in a psychic battle someone who was using that mask (who was upgraded and hold the remnants of the multiverse) and destroyed it, and that was just the regular, high-school girl Raven not going full out and using just parts of her powers.

Bypassed Brother Blood's immunity and emphatically attack him with the same emotional energy he implanted in her..... mind you

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Raven implants pain and suffering into multiple people. Note that she threatens to implant them with the pain and suffering of all humankind.

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Headcase, a very powerful telepath/telekinetic, had soloed an entire roster of Teen Titans and created machinery that capable of forming black holes all through his imagination. He also buried High School underground using his tk. Raven BFR's him into her soulself and sent him into a coma.

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Puts the Titan Rhea to sleep: That's mother of olympus ...

The New Teen Titans #12
The New Teen Titans #12

Here she uses her soul-self to take down Orion

Orion is fast enough (including as combat reflexes) to keep up and even beat Superman, and he was already bloodlusted and in a battle mood, yet Raven has no problems taking him down.She did the same thing to Rhea, the Titaness mother of Olympus gods and goddesses
Orion is fast enough (including as combat reflexes) to keep up and even beat Superman, and he was already bloodlusted and in a battle mood, yet Raven has no problems taking him down.She did the same thing to Rhea, the Titaness mother of Olympus gods and goddesses

Raven overpowers the Disruptor:

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or She can weaken her opponent or empower her teammate

Raven has the capability to empower... like she can boost Diana or weaken others by exploiting an empathic connection. She helps revive Brother Blood:

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Magic Counter for Zatanna

She can use her soul-self as well, which is a sort of void dimension by itself, inhabiting the space between real universe and the afterlife to deal with Zatanna and sue. (If Jean wants to go for Tp Raven is able to use her soul self and abilities at the same time . She can even control who goes through there and if is taken somewhere or not. Also, she was struck by Zaurel sword and her soul self absorbed that power (Flaming Sword (can fire blasts of holy fire, cut intangible beings such as ghosts and spirits, and cut through dimensional rifts )

She than enveloped her team and teleported them at the Heaven gates, going straight through the protection veil raised by the Pax Dei around Heaven. pax Dei are the angels armies who also defeated and they are pretty powerful by themselves yet Raven still pierced through their protection like a hot knife through butter and was chased away from Heaven gates by archangel Michael coming forward after that to explain to Zauriel why she isn't allowed there. Zauriel by himself couldn't pierce the Pax Dei and didn't know how they will go from there when raven was gone. I doubt as such that any Zatanna spells, even with prep, will keep Raven down, at least not a serious, morals off Raven.

She can do do a lot of what Zatanna can

Transmute /spells/summon/negate /magic blasts

Also, there's the fact that Raven can effect/manipulate magic enchantments as well. In Teen Titans Vol 3 #46 Raven filtered Neron demonic essence into Kid Devil. In addition to this said, Raven in the new 52 is able to use magical abilities. Having said this, Raven is also immune to temporary manipulation...like time manip, bfr, illusions (pre 52/rebirth), certain magical abilities ....

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Raven can Cast a spell to shut down the powers

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Magic /Invisibility counter

Inconsequential, they will be detected by Raven since she's demonstrated cross-dimensional soul detection and . Even in the new 52, she's shown the capability to sense and summon demons from other dimensions, so simply detecting where her opponents are shouldn't be an issue. Having said this,

Heightened sense of spatial-awareness; able to 'see' what most others can't, able to navigate different dimensions and the time-stream.

Illusions won't work either ..Raven has already resisted hypnotic manipulation that targets all neural activity in the brain from the Puppeteer way back in the '80s and even freed Donna Troy from it in the same issue. In addition to this said, When Phobia tried to frighten Raven with her powers, Raven simply blocks her out with her own, more powerful illusion and nearly killed her.... Raven wouldn't even need planetary level illusion resistance..but as I said there are several examples of illusions being ineffectual on her in both pre and new 52/Rebirth.

plus...

Taking away Raven's visibility-Raven is an empath a does not need eyes to see the intentions of others around her.

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Plus Raven knows Zatanna, and her abilities and ...............................put her in time stasis

Having said this, Raven can see those who are invisible so that won't work. She's a Trigons kid... lol
Having said this, Raven can see those who are invisible so that won't work. She's a Trigons kid... lol
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Raven can scan for cloaked opponents
Raven can scan for cloaked opponents

Thanks to her empathic powers, Raven has a heightened

ability to feel the emotions of others and a precognitive power to feel certain events unfolding.

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  1. Raven senses impending danger(The New Teen Titans #21)
  2. Raven senses the hopelessness of millions of people(Teen Titans #17)
  3. Raven senses the pain and misery within a hospital(The New Teen Titans #18)
Titans #1
Titans #1

RhjhjjSue Shield's Counter

So, I am aware of the energy that makes up IW fields and she negates most psionically powered manipulation. However, Raven's soul-self is instantaneous and has never been shown to take time to take action, so it's in the same boat as most other forms of psi-abilities. Raven, she can feel it and enlarge her soul-self to make it fit. The shield isn't being negated or breached, its getting 'swallowed', also it is actually quite unclear how many of Raven's abilities are rooted in psionics and how much in magic, she is a half-demon. (Remember her soul-self is avoid) Raven can easily phase through her shields and she has absolutely no defense against Raven's soulself... as I explained that 80's soul-self was a swiss army knife .... 80's early 2000's

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or

Raven has demonstrated the ability to phase /pierce out of the current universe and back into a spot of her choosing and dimensions and instead of just walking through them, can stay within them. In addition to this said, Raven has pierced the veil of the Pax Dei,.

I consider that Phasing as if she is immutable for X amount of time and she can move through dimensional barriers, physical objects, and shields. But, I can see Raven affecting it when she can affect the Pax Dei with her own power.

That holy magic and energy is something way beyond the physics of Sues shields. If Raven gets through those shields ... sue will get swallowed by the soul self (which we all know what happened to headcase , or she will soul manipulate her)

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Ah, quite an impressive opener you have there. With this said, I will do my best to counter you, and introduce my characters.

soul manipulation

Raven's cognitive will allow her to know exactly where he will be, what there intentions are as well as his potential. Her ability to manipulate souls allows her easy access to this info, giving her a tactical advantage... and Raven can manipulate souls on a planetary plus level .....and no one on this team is immune to being soul manipulated ...

Raven can see into someone's heart, soul and mind and can influence their consciousness and feelings:

THERES MORE BUT ILL SAVE it

Raven soul manipulated Darkseid without him even realizing it

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MORALS OFF

Raven will most definitely be willing to kill everyone here, and has the ability to team bust once she becomes angered. As for Raven's ruthlessness; well it's more often than not that she turns on the Titans when she goes evil: Back in Terror of Trigon, she was forcing them to go through individual nightmares that eventually turned them all into killers, thus subscribable to Trigon's influence.

Later, in the infamous New Teen Titans 100, Raven interrupted Nightwing and Starfire's wedding by killing the priest before he could say the magic words. The whole story up to #130 was a nightmare where Raven attempted to bring Trigon's 100 dead children back to life, 'the road to Hell' pic is from that arc where the plan was to drain a million souls to accomplish it, providing the architecture you see. Included in that plan was the brainwashing of the Matrix Supergirl, Beastboy (who went insane as a result of the demon seed inside of him), making one woman explode in her asylum cell as she was also impregnated this way but her body couldn't take it. Starfire was also treated this way and returned to Tamaran, which was destroyed later on along with the Technis Planet by Raven who had allied herself with the Psions.

The most modern 'going bad' story, she tried infusing the titans with the powers of the six remaining Deadly Sins (she's Pride in that group btw), using Gar as conduct.

Raven's energy-based attacks are a different story. On the topic of her energy-based attacks, she's managed to one-shot Trigon's children(which are some of the most powerful demons): who took trigons powers ... and left him in dimension... and couldn't get out theres more to it ... but too much to explain

  • she has a feat of dominating every Teen Titan which includes some powerhouses like Starfire Donna, and Adult Wally west.
  • Then we have her destroying over 3000 demons who were beating up the post-crisis titans
  • In her "normal" state (when she uses just fractions of her powers) she one-shots without problem a JL team that included Wonder Woman, Cap Atom, Zatanna, Green Lantern, Batman, Hawkman, and then proceeded to mind control the Titans at the same time.... thats like 12 people lol
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Raven sends a bunch of demons and cultists(and Brother Blood) to Hell with her Soul Self:

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Titans were nearly killed by the Brotherhood. Raven taps in to her demonic side and nearly kills everyone had Wonder girl not intervene..... See That soul-self she won't hesitate to do that

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Raven empathically feels Aquagirl's shriek of pain and teleports onto the H.I.V.E. base. The evil influence of Trigon drives her to basically murder people...

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Morals off everyone here is going to be bloodlusted and pissed off... You're fueling Raven .....

she can just "eat" their anger:

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Energy Blasts/Energy Projection

The more you become angry and display emotions she can convert it into energy blasts (you make her more powerful)

Raven knocks down Donna Troy, with the aftershocks of the energy she was emitting:

The New Teen Titans #31
The New Teen Titans #31

Raven can convert emotions into energy blasts, such as when she converted Brother Blood's hatred and blasted the Teen Titans:

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Or she Can make GL type constructs ( use it to shield , kill, or trap).. theres more but too much to post

Raven creates an energy construct of her father, Trigon:( mind you it took an amped team /with the good version of herself to stop...her)

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or she can kill you lol

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Pain Infliction

Raven can use her empathic powers to spread pain onto others: meaning internal attacks ... she can kill you... theres more but tooo much posting ...

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Summoning /Clones /Temporary distraction for

So, Raven can summon demons, demi-Gods, and has vast connections to the underworld to serve her.

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Raven's spell-casting is played, it summons a gigantic demon: these are creatures Raven can summon... to distract Kuurth

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or she can split herself into clones to fight her teammates (Trigon know's Raven's weaknesses and she knows her fathers aware of it) Thats a pissed of Superboy, Cassie Wondergirl, solstice etc....

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WONDER WOMAN

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I'll be using all of Diana's feats until new 52.. and grabbing 5 pieces of standard gear from each counterpart

Powers, Abilities and Gear

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Durability
  • Superhuman Speed, Agility & Reflexes
  • Flight
  • Enhanced Healing Factor
  • Enhanced Senses
  • Expert Hand to Hand & Weapons Fighter
  • Expert Tactician & Strategist

GEAR

Lansinarian Morphing Disk: /Telepathy /Offensive/Defensive /Constructs /Eyes of Athena

The morphing disc has show planetary level telepathy, and the ability to cut off Martian Manhunters telepathy. In addition to this said, we also the morphing disc TP Martian Manhunter. (Jean is not TPing Diana ., and Zatanna's illusions will not work and Diana ....)he can always see truth so illusions don’t work, she couldn’t even be sealed by an entity that was manipulating the entire soul of the planet itself, as well as an amped sorcerer who was trying to seal her along with the trinity on a conceptual level. In addition to this said, WW fought an enemy named Devastation twice in Erik Luke's run whose telepathy she resisted through willpower. Devastation TP is powerful enough to overcome the telepathy of Diana's Lansinarian Morphing Disk, which itself has planetary telepathy. Diana has also resisted tp from various Gods, Doctor Psycho, etc

Eyes of Athena :

The Sight of Athena" apparently grants her increased insight. (For example, Diana can often detect others' emotions, and is now so fully immune to Doctor Psycho's illusions that she usually is not even aware of what illusions he is attempting to project, apparently mind control doesn't work on her either). She can also detect other people's emotions.

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But the MP also attacked MMH

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And more TP(planetary)

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WW had also a telepathic duel in Cassie Sandsmark's mind for example:

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The MP can also create constructs(like a lantern/power ring),:

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, Diana has been shown to possess mental defenses against telepathic breaching, and Lord Maxwell was unable to breach Diana.

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That Morphing disc psychic blast was basically like a sun going nova
That Morphing disc psychic blast was basically like a sun going nova

GAUNTLETS :

Her bracelets have blocked:

  • Darkseid's Omega beams
  • Nekron's lightning
  • Attack from Quantum Zealots
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Lasso of Truth

Her lasso can latch onto souls and destroy them, and if any of the other women come into contact with that lasso it's a problem. he lassoes provide perpetual life just anyway and she can strip away powers that are borrowed and not that character's truth... (AKA KRUUTH... ) She literally burns away all powers or Influences that are not his with truth, so he’s getting left with just his actual power as that is his truth. If it comes from him and someone else sharing the same body, the body would revert to its original state as she’s been shown to even correct lies down to the genetic code. Secondly, the lasso affects beings from humans to superhumans to sorcerers to ghosts to gods, etc. You would need soul manipulation resistance and truth manipulation resistance of a high potency considering even high-end soul manipulation users are affected by the lasso. Characters who have tanked having an entire dimension of souls attacking theirs still have their soul affected. And the lasso is unbreakable unless Diana wavers in her own truth. (That's where Raven's psychic link comes ... ill explain later

ALSO THE LASSO CAN DRIVE OFF TELEPATHY

The lasso is the literal concept for Truth first of potency being as strong as the lasso which has affected various kinds of characters as long as they were subject to truth. Simply compelling them, to tell the truth, is child’s play, the lasso literally even breaks false reality, corrects lies in genetic code, strips away false powers and reverts characters to their true self.( which happaned once when she altered reality , and broke the lasso.... I don't remember the entire thing.. and she was caught of guard)

It can show you an opponent's weakness

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its area of effect.

Her lasso of course, just that it has soul manipulation now that she's bloodlusted:

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P.S SHE CAN SEE THROUGH MAGICALLY CLOAKED ENVIRONMENTS

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Sword of Hephaestus

Hephaestus forged her a single sword to use, which is what we see her wield most of the time when she's with the Justice League. Diana tells Superman that her sword even has the ability to cut atoms:... she could use that sword on sue

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Diana's sword is able to cut and hurt God of Strength amped Superman:

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The sword has also been used to cause a nuclear explosion

ROYAL Tiara

Diana has a tiara that can cut Superman's throat and has decapitated Gods.

Durability

nd she withstood attacks from a mind-controlled Wally West

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And she casually brushed off thermonuclear nuke like nothing

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Basically superman and Diana/MMH are about even in stats

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Shrugged off attacks from Pg that sent her flying

Diana has tanked attacks from a mind-controlled superman and then proceeded to tank energy attacks / then tanked attacked OMAC...as he called her one of the most powerful people in the world

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Strength /psychical notable fights

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said to be just as strong as hercules
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vs OMACs

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Against Supergirl.

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She beat Achilles who one shotted the eradicator , and also took blows from Doomday

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Speed

Diana has showcased impressive feats of combat speed: which demonstrated below is FTL From what I recall Jonn also believes that Diana is almost as fast as flash.

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Diana reacts to Superman heat vision

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Wonder Woman deflects the piece of the Shattered God coming from all the corners of the universe. he pieces are described as trillions upon trillions of unimaginably tiny fragments and "beyond the measure of counting" and they are scattered from all corners of the universe!

he’s also blitzed a White Martian and white martians have fought flash

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And she’s fast enough to sneak up on Superman

Strategy

Diana Will focus on Fernus , (she has the gear to do it)because psychically Diana is the only one who can match him almost. Diana has withstood blows from may monsters, demons, gods, magic users, and superman. Raven can establish a mind link (PERK) too communicate with Diana too exploit any weaknesses. In addition to this said, Raven will deal with the girls as I've given you the rundown in my opening. Indeed, Kruth will be running around .... but Raven can summon demons to distract him while she deals with the girls.

Once some of the girls go down... thats where Raven and Diana can establish a connection to start soul manipulating... as they did to Darkseid.....

I 'll add more later I haven't slept lol...... I literally think I pulled an all-nighter .. If the formatting is off I am sorry !!!

@juiceboks@emperorthanos-@kasya_carey@apex_pretador@totu@geekryan@rac95

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geekryan

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@thevoidofdeath: Nice! Although I think the scans in the speed/durability section are out of order...

Can I start my counters right away or do you want to add things first?

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Y'know, there's a reason why Spoiler blocks exist.

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#29  Edited By TheVoidofDeath  Online

@king-ragnar: @geekryan:

Yes, go for the next counter :) Oh, ugh I hate when it does that.... I'll counter Kruuth next go round...

Ragnar, I did this at 3:50 Am , and comic vine get glitching everytime I'd hit spoiler block.

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@thevoidofdeath: spoiler blocks usually work when you make the spoiler block first then put the scans in, the other way of doing it makes it glitchy

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ProfessorRespect

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@thevoidofdeath: spoiler blocks usually work when you make the spoiler block first then put the scans in, the other way of doing it makes it glitchy

and they do not work in pms

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Y'know, there's a reason why Spoiler blocks exist.

You like to live dangerously I see.

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Post #2 - Counters

Raven

I know Raven is your favourite character and you are very knowledgeable and passionate about her. On the other hand, I like Raven but I'm not too familiar with her feats. I'll counter what you posted in the hopes that you provided all the necessary context.

Demon Raven

White Raven (Capped we won't be using her high-end feats .. like that omniversal feat lol)

Since you don't have prep, Raven would be starting the battle in her base form, not her Demon or White forms. Maybe being morals off will make her switch to a more powerful form as the battle begins, but you will need to prove that.

The proven instance came when she took down an armed group of occultists through a mix of combat skills and teleportation later taking down her brother Envy in the same manner, she was seen hurling occultists through tombstones and Envy through the stone floor of a church. Raven kicks Donna Troy and claims she's her physical equal. And while she notes this is because of Brother Blood amping Raven, this amp was permanent, which means she still possessed this level of strength even after breaking free of Blood's control, so this feat is perfectly valid.

Do you have scans to prove all of this?

On a regular basis, Raven's unamped physicals are quite poor and definitely not on the level of Donna Troy. Even if that were the case, Donna Troy is a mid tier and is far outclassed by anyone on my team, especially Martian Manhunter.

Speed /Durability /Teleportation (All of her teleports are instantaneous )

The scans from this entire section are out of order, so it was a bit confusing to look through.

For the most part, these speed feats are pretty average and not significant enough to hold an advantage over my team. On a consistent basis, Raven isn't reacting to characters like Flash, Kid Flash, Hal Jordan. She's on par with other Titans, who are hypersonic at most.

Keep in mind with speed feats Raven is able to manifest her soul-self instantaneously, and if her body is knocked unconscious she is still able to use her soul self.

Her Soul Self still needs to close the distance in order to reach its target though, which isn't instant.

Raven tanks a blast from Martian Manhunter::) She was able to hold is blast though and were using three versions of Raven here . Kind of confusing when Raven manhandled Superboy and his crazy tk... but Superboy beat up MMh in new 52 ....in annual 001 ... and basically the Titans got into an argument... after what SP did

This is a bad, bad showing for Raven, especially since I have Martian Manhunter.

J'onn casually hit Raven with a Martian Vision blast while knocking back Robin and holding an unconscious third person (no clue who that is). Raven was clearly hit by the blast, and she didn't go intangible in time or teleport out of its way.

Note for telepaths on the opposite team: The difference lies in Raven's mind being a very hostile place to visit, as has been shown more than once by people trying to get into it... or being exposed to it. In part that's due to how powerful she is, in another is that she is a half-demon. In older versions, her father is partially connected to it and he doesn't like intruders. And Raven herself describes her mind as being ripped and torn from the fabric of reality. Raven does have any additional psionic defenses, Jean nor MMH can just walk in and do whatever they want (Especially with Classic Raven and New 52 )Which I will maintain is highly unlikely considering Raven has her father banging on her mental door nearly constantly. How well Raven can resist is for me based on how well she's able to resist her father who is frequently trying to influence her that way.(She's been doing this since the age of 10)

This is similar to Magik from the X-Men, in how her mind is so crazy and hostile that telepaths sometimes cannot enter her mind or have trouble doing so. However, that only applies to trying to enter Raven's mind in order to read her thoughts. A telepath like Jean or J'onn don't need to actually enter her mind to psychically assault her, and they can just unleash a TP blast against her.

I believe that Raven being able to resist Trigon is not only due to her psychic defences, but due to her connection to him as well. Raven has no such connection with Jean or J'onn. And if she is constantly fighting off Trigon as well, well then that makes it easier for my telepaths to attack her mind.

I know for a fact that J'onn has entered her mind and scanned her mind before too, on more than one occasion. Here is one example where he casually enters her mind from a country away, without her noticing:

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Psimon, a psychic that is inferior to both Jean Grey and Martian Manhunter, has affected her mind as well:

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Raven could not handle a telepathic assault from a bloodlusted Jean Grey or Martian Manhunter.

If someone enters her mind and soul self she might do the same but is not necessary, as I said she can do there whatever she pleases,... And Raven's mind and soul is not just complicated, it is a sort of interdimensional nexus.

Jean is a highly accomplished astral combatant. However, while Jean is fighting Raven on the Astral Plane, her physical body would be vulnerable to attack from anyone else on my team.

The feats you provided involving Muse, Jericho, Mento, Doctor Psycho, and Phobia are not enough. None of them are on Jean and J'onn's level of telepathy.

Raven can manipulate the worst fears but is not the only thing she can do. She can make people actually feel, physically, pain and fears (up to dying right away because of that). She can use her soul-self, for which Jean has no counter, to take her down right away.

OFFENSIVE: Can steal emotions from others, rendering them emotionally numb, put people to sleep, read minds , eat emotions , pacify ... force emotions and tp you to a coma state, etc

Jean has empathic abilities as well, by the way, and Raven's Soul Self isn't instant. Zatanna could also likely counter it since the team has basic knowledge and both Zatanna and MMH would be familiar with Raven's capabilities.

Her Soul Self is hax, but not instant and definitely not unbeatable with someone as powerful as Zatanna on my team.

or She can weaken her opponent or empower her teammate

Raven has the capability to empower... like she can boost Diana or weaken others by exploiting an empathic connection. She helps revive Brother Blood

You're acting as if Raven has the time to do something like this, when in fact, she is being targeted right as soon as the battle starts by a morals off Jean, Sue, and Zatanna.

She can use her soul-self as well, which is a sort of void dimension by itself, inhabiting the space between real universe and the afterlife to deal with Zatanna and sue. (If Jean wants to go for Tp Raven is able to use her soul self and abilities at the same time . She can even control who goes through there and if is taken somewhere or not. Also, she was struck by Zaurel sword and her soul self absorbed that power (Flaming Sword (can fire blasts of holy fire, cut intangible beings such as ghosts and spirits, and cut through dimensional rifts )

She than enveloped her team and teleported them at the Heaven gates, going straight through the protection veil raised by the Pax Dei around Heaven. pax Dei are the angels armies who also defeated and they are pretty powerful by themselves yet Raven still pierced through their protection like a hot knife through butter and was chased away from Heaven gates by archangel Michael coming forward after that to explain to Zauriel why she isn't allowed there. Zauriel by himself couldn't pierce the Pax Dei and didn't know how they will go from there when raven was gone. I doubt as such that any Zatanna spells, even with prep, will keep Raven down, at least not a serious, morals off Raven.

Again, it isn't an instant attack, whereas Jean, Sue, and Zatanna can all attack you instantly.

All of what you just said is not backed up by feats, and is very likely driven by context, like most of Raven's feats.

She can do do a lot of what Zatanna can

Transmute /spells/summon/negate /magic blasts

Well then show the feats, because you haven't for any of these things.

Also, there's the fact that Raven can effect/manipulate magic enchantments as well. In Teen Titans Vol 3 #46 Raven filtered Neron demonic essence into Kid Devil. In addition to this said, Raven in the new 52 is able to use magical abilities. Having said this, Raven is also immune to temporary manipulation...like time manip, bfr, illusions (pre 52/rebirth), certain magical abilities

Temporal manipulation and time manipulation aren't allowed in the tournament anyways.

What happened with Neron and Kid Devil wasn't instant and she was struggling to do this.

Raven can Cast a spell to shut down the powers

Jean can also shut down powers via telepathy...In the scan you provided, Raven isn't actually shown shutting down his powers, and since she needs to cast a spell, it isn't instant.

Inconsequential, they will be detected by Raven since she's demonstrated cross-dimensional soul detection and . Even in the new 52, she's shown the capability to sense and summon demons from other dimensions, so simply detecting where her opponents are shouldn't be an issue. Having said this,

Heightened sense of spatial-awareness; able to 'see' what most others can't, able to navigate different dimensions and the time-stream.

Feats?

You would need to prove that Raven is capable of doing this while in a combat situation and while my team has multiple layers of invisibility (telepathy, magic, and energy).

Illusions won't work either ..Raven has already resisted hypnotic manipulation that targets all neural activity in the brain from the Puppeteer way back in the '80s and even freed Donna Troy from it in the same issue. In addition to this said, When Phobia tried to frighten Raven with her powers, Raven simply blocks her out with her own, more powerful illusion and nearly killed her.... Raven wouldn't even need planetary level illusion resistance..but as I said there are several examples of illusions being ineffectual on her in both pre and new 52/Rebirth.

Again, none of these people are on Jean and MMH's level of telepathy.

Taking away Raven's visibility-Raven is an empath a does not need eyes to see the intentions of others around her.

The scan you posted has nothing to do with what you said lol. They are unrelated, and Raven seeing the intentions of my team won't do anything.

Plus Raven knows Zatanna, and her abilities and ...............................put her in time stasis

Zatanna and MMH know Raven as well.

Having said this, Raven can see those who are invisible so that won't work. She's a Trigons kid... lol

This feat is a little better, but the invisible opponent looks like some random dude. Not someone on the level and complexity of invisibility that my team would have.

Thanks to her empathic powers, Raven has a heightened ability to feel the emotions of others and a precognitive power to feel certain events unfolding.

Yeaaa if Raven takes the time to stop and sense for my team, she is leaving herself vulnerable to getting instantly killed lol. Not going to work in your favor. Even if she does sense my team through the multiple layers of invisibility, she would need to pinpoint their exact location and react to their instant attacks, neither of which are likely.

So, I am aware of the energy that makes up IW fields and she negates most psionically powered manipulation. However, Raven's soul-self is instantaneous and has never been shown to take time to take action, so it's in the same boat as most other forms of psi-abilities. Raven, she can feel it and enlarge her soul-self to make it fit. The shield isn't being negated or breached, its getting 'swallowed', also it is actually quite unclear how many of Raven's abilities are rooted in psionics and how much in magic, she is a half-demon. (Remember her soul-self is avoid) Raven can easily phase through her shields and she has absolutely no defense against Raven's soulself... as I explained that 80's soul-self was a swiss army knife .... 80's early 2000's

It can be activated instantly, but it doesn't reach its target instantly. It needs to travel.

Raven can't do much to being instantly crushed by a force field or having her internal organs messed up.

Raven has demonstrated the ability to phase /pierce out of the current universe and back into a spot of her choosing and dimensions and instead of just walking through them, can stay within them. In addition to this said, Raven has pierced the veil of the Pax Dei,.

I consider that Phasing as if she is immutable for X amount of time and she can move through dimensional barriers, physical objects, and shields. But, I can see Raven affecting it when she can affect the Pax Dei with her own power.

That holy magic and energy is something way beyond the physics of Sues shields. If Raven gets through those shields ... sue will get swallowed by the soul self (which we all know what happened to headcase , or she will soul manipulate her)

In order to phase through an attack, she needs to see it coming and react to it. She likely won't get the chance to do that in this battle as per my strategy and prep.

Raven's cognitive will allow her to know exactly where he will be, what there intentions are as well as his potential. Her ability to manipulate souls allows her easy access to this info, giving her a tactical advantage... and Raven can manipulate souls on a planetary plus level .....and no one on this team is immune to being soul manipulated ...

Raven can see into someone's heart, soul and mind and can influence their consciousness and feelings:

Soul manipulation would be an issue, but again, she won't have the time to use this sort of attack.

Morals off everyone here is going to be bloodlusted and pissed off... You're fueling Raven .....

she can just "eat" their anger:

Morals off ≠ Bloodlusted. Just because my team will be willing to kill and trying to kill doesn't mean they will be enraged and lose control of their emotions. With the exception of Kuurth, everyone on my team is pretty calm and in control during battles.

You're also trying to argue a case for Raven going full crazy/demonic mode just because she is morals off. Not only is she just morals off (and not bloodlusted), but she would need to actively enter a superior form, which would leave her vulnerable while doing so.

Raven knocks down Donna Troy, with the aftershocks of the energy she was emitting:

Knocking down Donna Troy, a mid tier, won't do anything to MMH, Kuurth, or the shields/defences of Jean, Sue, and Zatanna.

Raven can use her empathic powers to spread pain onto others: meaning internal attacks ... she can kill you... theres more but tooo much posting ...

This isn't instant, unlike what Jean, Sue, and Zatanna can do to Raven.

So, Raven can summon demons, demi-Gods, and has vast connections to the underworld to serve her.

Raven's spell-casting is played, it summons a gigantic demon: these are creatures Raven can summon... to distract Kuurth

or she can split herself into clones to fight her teammates (Trigon know's Raven's weaknesses and she knows her fathers aware of it) Thats a pissed of Superboy, Cassie Wondergirl, solstice etc....

You don't have prep, meaning Raven would have to do this while the battle has already started...

Raven has a lot of hax and versatility, but you are stretching her way too thin. You are claiming that she is going to do way too many things, instantly and all at once, without having prep. AND while my team has knowledge, prep, multiple layers of invisibility, and many ways to instantly kill Raven before she can do anything.

Within 3 seconds of the battle beginning, Raven is being psychically assaulted by Jean, having her body and insides destroyed by Sue's force fields, and being attacked by Zatanna's magic. She isn't surviving one of those, let alone all three, and while not even focused on their attacks.

Wonder Woman

The morphing disc has show planetary level telepathy, and the ability to cut off Martian Manhunters telepathy. In addition to this said, we also the morphing disc TP Martian Manhunter. (Jean is not TPing Diana ., and Zatanna's illusions will not work and Diana ....)he can always see truth so illusions don’t work, she couldn’t even be sealed by an entity that was manipulating the entire soul of the planet itself, as well as an amped sorcerer who was trying to seal her along with the trinity on a conceptual level. In addition to this said, WW fought an enemy named Devastation twice in Erik Luke's run whose telepathy she resisted through willpower. Devastation TP is powerful enough to overcome the telepathy of Diana's Lansinarian Morphing Disk, which itself has planetary telepathy. Diana has also resisted tp from various Gods, Doctor Psycho, etc

Okay, several things to note about the Lansinarian Morphing Disk:

  1. It was "destroyed" in 2004 and never seen or used again
  2. It's actually a sentient alien life form and not a piece of gear/equipment
  3. It is very, very limited in feats, especially regarding TP
  4. Many of its feats involved Hippolyta (when she became Wonder Woman) and not Diana
  5. It was rarely used in a real combat scenario, especially for TP
  6. Wonder Woman needs to actively use it; it isn't passive nor instant
  7. WW would need to actively target my team to use its power, when they are hidden by many layers of invisibility and there is a decoy of them to distract you

In a combat situation like ours, she won't have the opportunity to use it. And ET said it wouldn't be allowed:

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The Sight of Athena" apparently grants her increased insight. (For example, Diana can often detect others' emotions, and is now so fully immune to Doctor Psycho's illusions that she usually is not even aware of what illusions he is attempting to project, apparently mind control doesn't work on her either). She can also detect other people's emotions.

In telepathy, Martian Manhunter > Doctor Psycho, Maxwell Lord, and Devastation

Wonder Woman's psychic defences are quite inconsistent and she has been affected by telepaths on many occasions. Even MMH, lesser Martian telepaths, and Fernus have affected her mind several times, and I provided those examples in my opener: one, two, three.

She has been affected by Maxima, Doctor Psycho, Brainwave Jr, and Despero, to name a few. Her telepathic resistances aren't infallible at all, and someone with Jean or MMH's level of telepathy could assault her mind without much trouble.

Her bracelets have blocked Darkseid's Omega beams, Nekron's lightning, Attack from Quantum Zealots

Most of the attacks that my team can dish out don't involve beams or projectiles that WW can block with her bracelets, so this isn't a major factor.

Her lasso can latch onto souls and destroy them, and if any of the other women come into contact with that lasso it's a problem. he lassoes provide perpetual life just anyway and she can strip away powers that are borrowed and not that character's truth... (AKA KRUUTH... ) She literally burns away all powers or Influences that are not his with truth, so he’s getting left with just his actual power as that is his truth. If it comes from him and someone else sharing the same body, the body would revert to its original state as she’s been shown to even correct lies down to the genetic code. Secondly, the lasso affects beings from humans to superhumans to sorcerers to ghosts to gods, etc. You would need soul manipulation resistance and truth manipulation resistance of a high potency considering even high-end soul manipulation users are affected by the lasso. Characters who have tanked having an entire dimension of souls attacking theirs still have their soul affected. And the lasso is unbreakable unless Diana wavers in her own truth. (That's where Raven's psychic link comes ... ill explain later

You'll have to provide the feats for these. And unless you can prove that her Lasso could "strip away the truth" from something as powerful as an ancient Asgardian God and a magical deity like Cyttorak (both of which empower Juggernaut), she won't be depowering Kuurth in any way.

Also, she would need to physically wrap her Lasso around Kuurth or anyone else on my team in order for her to use its power. Easier said than done.

ALSO THE LASSO CAN DRIVE OFF TELEPATHY

The lasso is the literal concept for Truth first of potency being as strong as the lasso which has affected various kinds of characters as long as they were subject to truth. Simply compelling them, to tell the truth, is child’s play, the lasso literally even breaks false reality, corrects lies in genetic code, strips away false powers and reverts characters to their true self.( which happaned once when she altered reality , and broke the lasso.... I don't remember the entire thing.. and she was caught of guard)

All you are providing are blank statements. You need to provide scans and context. There's also no chance that Diana will be able to wrap her lasso around MMH, Zatanna, Jean, or Sue.

P.S SHE CAN SEE THROUGH MAGICALLY CLOAKED ENVIRONMENTS

This is such a vague statement. All this shows is that she can tell if an area is magically cloaked or not. That doesn't mean she can determine how, why, to what extent, in what way, etc. Nor can she do anything about it.

Hephaestus forged her a single sword to use, which is what we see her wield most of the time when she's with the Justice League. Diana tells Superman that her sword even has the ability to cut atoms:... she could use that sword on sue

Diana's sword is able to cut and hurt God of Strength amped Superman:

I don't doubt that it could cut anyone on my team, but again, you would need to get close and actually tag them to do so.

The sword has also been used to cause a nuclear explosion

No scan?

Diana has a tiara that can cut Superman's throat and has decapitated Gods.

No scans?

nd she withstood attacks from a mind-controlled Wally West

She was clearly injured from this though.

And she casually brushed off thermonuclear nuke like nothing

Being able to shrug off a nuke isn't a consistent level of durability for her.

Basically superman and Diana/MMH are about even in stats

Umm no. That's a laughable statement to make. MMH has several statements and feats putting him at or above Superman's level. Superman is consistently above Wonder Woman. And that doesn't even include Fernus' feats.

Diana has tanked attacks from a mind-controlled superman and then proceeded to tank energy attacks / then tanked attacked OMAC...as he called her one of the most powerful people in the world

MMH is far superior to Wonder Woman in every category. Let's review some reasons why:

I think you get the idea.

Diana has showcased impressive feats of combat speed: which demonstrated below is FTL From what I recall Jonn also believes that Diana is almost as fast as flash.

Where is this stated? Because Diana being almost as fast as Flash is flat-out false lol.

he’s also blitzed a White Martian and white martians have fought flash

Where is the "blitz"...?

You really want to try and use White Martians as an argument for Wonder Woman?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6

All of the Leaguers were struggling with individual White Martians...and yet Fernus single-handedly slaughtered dozens of them and then proceeded to own the JL.

And she’s fast enough to sneak up on Superman

No scan?

Diana Will focus on Fernus , (she has the gear to do it)because psychically Diana is the only one who can match him almost. Diana has withstood blows from may monsters, demons, gods, magic users, and superman. Raven can establish a mind link (PERK) too communicate with Diana too exploit any weaknesses.

Fernus absolutely owned Diana and 8 other members of the JL. MMH is enough to own Wonder Woman, even without Fernus. Even with the gear, Diana stands no chance.

In addition to this said, Raven will deal with the girls as I've given you the rundown in my opening. Indeed, Kruth will be running around .... but Raven can summon demons to distract him while she deals with the girls.

You seem to keep ignoring my strategy. Jean, Sue, and Zatanna will all instantly attack Raven the moment the battle begins. They are also invisible through multiple means. Raven can't detect their presence, locate them, defend from their attacks, AND counter-attack. She is going down right away without any chance of retaliation.

Conclusion

You provided many feats, but you also made many statements without any scans or context to back them up. You addressed some of my arguments and mentioned how your team can counter them, but not very effectively, and you seemed to ignore many aspects of my prep and strategy.

You did a good job at displaying Raven's hax and versatility, but that isn't enough to prove how she could survive even a few seconds against my team.

Wonder Woman is a formidable opponent, but she is outclassed by Martian Manhunter and even more outclassed when you account for Fernus' feats. She will likely survive longer than Raven, but she is also going down pretty quickly.

I don't see this being a long, drawn-out fight. Given my perks, prep, and strategy, Raven & Wonder Woman are going down hard and fast. Raven especially won't have any opportunity to counter, and even if she did, you are stretching her way too thin by claiming she's going to do a manner of things all at once. That isn't a feasible strategy, especially since you do not have prep.

You didn't convince me that Raven and Wonder Woman could quickly see past Zatanna's decoy illusion, deal with a charging Kuurth, detect and locate my invisible team (who are made invisible through multiple means), and actually attack, all before my team tears yours apart with a variety of instant and simultaneous attacks (physical, magical, psychic, and energy).

You also failed to account for Zatanna's area enchantment or divination, which coupled with basic knowledge, would give my team a general idea of how the battle will play out.

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#37  Edited By TheVoidofDeath  Online

@geekryan:

Nice counter :) but I'll be back lol

P.s I am not using rebirth Raven I'm using new 52 lobdells run.... I refuse to use current Raven

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@geekryan:

Nice counter :) but I'll be back lol

P.s I am not using rebirth Raven I'm using new 52 lobdells run.... I refuse to use current Raven

From my understanding, all DC characters are Pre-52/New-52/Rebirth versions.

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@geekryan:

Yes , you're actually correct:) it's a bit of everything 😊 . However , I didn't put In the o.p that I was use Rebirth Raven specifically.

P.s

I read one snipet of Rebirth Daughter of darkness , and put the comic down lol .

My knowledge is Classic - Post Crisis and New 52 lobdell... and some mini series

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@geekryan:

Raven counters

Morals off Base Raven is by default close to or full demon because she's willing to employ attacks. We saw base Raven take the JLA (Which included wonder woman/ Hawkman etc, and mind-controlled the titans at the same time lol)... thats like 12 people lol

She doesn't need any prep time as such and unlike the others, she is very ruthless and going for the kill when as such (demon form, not white one which is capped here due to being too overpowered) Morals of means morals off... This, not Raven who falls to PIS, and gets hit because she's a pacifist and doesn't want to fight. I mean Raven isn't going to morals off all the time in the Titans, otherwise, we wouldn't have a comic lol. Raven morals on is a pacifist, gives people chances, and uses violence as a last resort. (which we so throughout her history) This is morals off...she's not giving anybody any chances here...Raven in a morals mindset is willing to kill, torment, and take out people on a whim.

The Titans were nearly killed by the Brotherhood. Raven taps in to her demonic side and nearly kills everyone had Wonder girl not intervene Raven's Soul-Self also has its offensive uses..... She was capable to absorb Darkseid soul (together with WW one and all the Amazons and their pantheon of gods energies) to power him back. In the same time, however, she modified his soul, adding slices from WW, without Darkseid to realize and understand whats going on.

or if she's serious

Raven can channel the planet with a mere thought and has no problem doing this..

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Inconsequential, Donna Troy and Starfire are way above more than half of your team, physically wise. (Excluding Kruuth and Martian Manhunter)

2. Now here we have the same Superboy who was giving a hard beating to MMH, this time getting a nasty beating himself from Belial, the oldest of Raven brothers in n52.

So you want to lowball my character for not phasing when Martian Manhunter showed up? So why didn't Jon Phase, blitz, or beat the daylights out of superboy if he was that angered ? (Which he was bloodlusted ) Raven wasn't even doing anything lol... not attacking ...

Martian Manhunter got his behind handed to him here. and if I need to I will post the entire story here. Jonn was not pleased, and he was bloodlusted looking for Superboy.

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Only to find Raven speed blitzing Belial, and ripping out his heart in a gruesome way. Sure, he was killed temporarily as he can grow back his heart, but if Raven does that to any of the girls they are dead on the spot, but if Raven does that to any from your female team they are dead on the spot.

Same Raven dodging and enraged Superboy ... who wanted to kill her !!!!!

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valid
valid

4. In addition to this said, Raven has fought off her brothers previously in the post Crisis. In her base form which was a serious Raven, and then one without morals. Having said this, the two mid-tiers you spoke of (Donna Troy/Starfire) fought Raven's brothers obviously lost ... but there's that. (Donna is a 100 tonner )Raven's brother Envy who has warped himself into Wonder Woman, and yes Envy does take on the full power of those he turns into such as Barry Allen and considering he has no qualm killing, that punch had no restraint in it.

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In consequence of this, morals off Raven absolutely decimated the entire titans' roster which included Adult Flash wally west and then proceeded to take out all her brothers. She flattened them all in a blink of an eye, so do you really wish to lowball? That's 15 people ... lol provide the feats below, and also include Please note. Anyways, their powers were all instantaneous (they took out Wally West for example).

5. Keep in mind once The deadly sins proceed to beat the entire Titans roster, a portal is generated to bring Trigon fourth (Aka from Raven) With this said, the portal begins to open and The Deadly sins steal Trigons power who was in a weakened state.

We don't know how much power they stole from him, but we know weakened to a state where he was stuck in his dimension.

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Even a serious Raven beat her brothers to a pulp in her regular form. (Which were beating up the Titans in their nonempowered states )

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which included high-tiers like Donna and Wally ( from what I remember donna , and two solid mid-tiers like Cyborg and Starfire), easily restraining them:

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Your quote below

For the most part, these speed feats are pretty average and not significant enough to hold an advantage over my team. On a consistent basis, Raven isn't reacting to characters like Flash, Kid Flash, Hal Jordan. She's on par with other Titans, who are hypersonic at most.

My response :

When she is aware, morals off, and serious she is very consistent in her reaction speed, as you can see on the previous scans. She easily outreached and practically danced around a bloodlusted Jon El (Superman son from the future, at least as fast as his dad) who tried to kill her, etc. The Perk I used is morals off means morals off...

The Teleportation feats are instantaneous, and it's been stated throughout 1984 all the way on. In addition to this said, I've show proving this to be so, and you deny the fact which is stated multiple times on panel. (She's done it many times ) It's as if in the comic Superboy says he uses tactile Tk, and I show it on the panel and you deny it. (That doesn't make sense does it?)

As a consequence of this, if need be I will go through many pages of Teen Titans comics to deem it so. Raven's ports traverse time and space due to her source being extra-dimensional energy. This means her ports travel beyond time and space and into the realms of the known and unknown.... once she teleports you're in trouble. The proof is in the Monitor scan. Monitor has omniscience on a multiversal scale. He's able to find anyone no matter the time period or dimension they reside, and yet he was unable to find even a trace of Raven.

It's been stated /shown no one knows when or where Raven will port-specific line from the 1984 Teen Titans ...

Here she just snatches with her soul-self an aware and unwilling Flash (adult Wally) before he could react... he was angry at Raven for formerly manipulating him to fall in love with her, and ruining his life lol.....

.,
.,

Your quote

Her Soul Self still needs to close the distance in order to reach its target though, which isn't instant.

My response

It is faster than Kid Flash can run or Superboy reacts, which is more than enough. Also, speaking of her soul-self, for which I don't see any from your time to have an answer.

Raven soul self is a void /a nexus to know and unknown that isn't even of magical nature, and where she rules supreme and in that soul self she can do many things to your opponent especially morals off. (That soul-self The difference is that Raven is able to do it in the astral and physical world, and more to the point she can do more with it than most, since she can use it to carry things, teleport items, use her empathy on people through it, soul manipulate ...even use it to hit people with if it suits her or even absorb the person or object in.....negate powers once inside, mind attack until coma state ...etc

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She was also absorbing with no problem Zauriel holy sword strike . (cuts dimensional rifts and can injure magical beings)

Raven however just absorbed its energy into her soul self, teleporting an entire team at the Heaven gates and going full-on and without trouble through the protection veil raised by Pax Dei around Heaven. T

Raven was noticed by Micheal ... and forced to flee Michael after to admonish Zauriel for thinking that Raven, the daughter of Trigon, will be allowed to enter in Heaven. (That soul self is way powerful when used in a serious manner, and willing to do what's necessary ... thats above Zatanna's magics...thats holy magic)

Serious Raven had casually taken down the pre-crisis Justice League (including Zatanna)s while she was also mind-controlling the Titans. (I can pull the feats for that, and Raven's powers can multitask)

Psychic wise, Raven has fought Trigon trying to influence her(btw he's a telepath..s and tries to poses ),also he gave psiom whatever how you spell it those telepathic powers.

and even in regular form was able to resist and eventually destroy the Medusa Mask that was mentioned before. Don't bring up Magik ... because she doesn't have Trigon as a mental bridge in her mind... New Mutant 15 never said she was immune , but only that her mind is protected by advanced shields .

I think this said it the best

an example
an example
thats a defense right there
thats a defense right there

Anywho, Quite a bit of this is going on the assumptions that Raven doesn't have any additional psionic defenses or that they are so low that regular Jean can just walk in and do whatever she wants. Which I will maintain is highly unlikely considering Raven has her father banging on her mental door nearly constantly. Regarding who's empathy is stronger, that will depend on who has the greater willpower to push it through.(Morals off Raven wants to kill and can get enraged to the point of turning into a demon and killing the ladies)

The mask was used by the Psycho-Pirate who was only chosen by the Antimonitor because he couldn't find Raven or Phobia (another empath) to help him in his rampage through the multiverse

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/17/91/5e/17915edb047e8a70601b586dad93971f.jpg

Raven will also thoroughly defeat Phobia in their latest clash

Neither the Monitor neither the Antimonitor couldn't find Raven back then which is a feat by itself that shows she was either

Morals off Raven (which is a very different person than the regular Raven you mention around) will murder anyone who dares try to enter her mind, or make them suffer unspeakable horrors. Raven is also faster in reactions than most of them and none have an answer to her soul self and will be completely lost when taken by it. Or have their very souls taken....

So, let's say you even do knock out Raven's body. Well, that won't do a thing because Raven's Soul Self can contain her consciousness, so even if her body is KOed her Soul Self can still act... which sue storm has no defense against lol she will get mindraped into a comatose state or turned against her teammate. (once she's in that soul self )

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P.s Yes, it took Raven a struggle to remove Neron's curse... he's a hell lord lol.... of course she's going to struggle in regular form. (without help lol)there's the fact that Raven can effect/manipulate magic enchantments as well. In Teen TitansRaven filtered Neron demonic essence into Kid Devil. Now mind you Neron is a Hell Lord ..... seriously powerful... do you know what he can do??

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DON'T RESPOND YET !! I'LL POST WONDER WOMANS COUNTER TOMORROW !! (don't mind all caps I am just making sure you see it lol...:) I have been super busy ....with work ...but ill post wonder woman's counter tomorrow along with the combined strategy for kruuth)

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#43  Edited By TheVoidofDeath  Online

Wonder Woman Counters

Your quote

Okay, several things to note about the Lansinarian Morphing Disk:

  1. It was "destroyed" in 2004 and never seen or used again
  2. It's actually a sentient alien life form and not a piece of gear/equipment
  3. It is very, very limited in feats, especially regarding TP
  4. Many of its feats involved Hippolyta (when she became Wonder Woman) and not Diana
  5. It was rarely used in a real combat scenario, especially for TP
  6. Wonder Woman needs to actively use it; it isn't passive nor instant
  7. WW would need to actively target my team to use its power, when they are hidden by many layers of invisibility and there is a decoy of them to distract you

In a combat situation like ours, she won't have the opportunity to use it. And ET said it wouldn't be allowed:

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The Sight of Athena" apparently grants her increased insight. (For example, Diana can often detect others' emotions, and is now so fully immune to Doctor Psycho's illusions that she usually is not even aware of what illusions he is attempting to project, apparently mind control doesn't work on her either). She can also detect other people's emotions.

My response

Oh my, I cannot believe you resorted to something as so. When I entered using Wonder Woman, I initially said full gear/Creation energy. (I had to start all over again )However, the OP stated that we must use standard gear, and I took gear from Pre, Post, and New 52. That means I can use the standard given gear, and Diana has used that gear for quite a long while. Inconsiqueintal, the morphing disc is apart of her standard gear in previous incarnations and would be applicable here. (I will challenge you on that ) The feats I presented you with are Wonder Woman, and she did cutt off Martian Manhunters telepathy. (Do not resort to downplaying, because I can do the same as well) I can post all the feats 1987 on if need be because she was using that morphing disc for a lot of things. DONT WORRY I AM NOT MAD LOL ...YOU'RE STILL MY FRIEND HAHA:) and one day we need to do a cav together!!!! I will challenge Et on that later on, because its still part of gear post crisis ... until that rushed end story lol....which was bs lol(The Alien explain the history below)

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1. Sentient material is given to her by Lansinarians...The Morphing Disk turned out to be a life form later on, but was used as standard gear from the 1980s on ....you cannot refute it ... those feats happened and I am using the gear from then.. Fourms on Cvhave did not stop you from allowing to use it .

2. It's used for multiple purposes

3. Normally, it can be seen in the form of an invisible jet or wonder dome

4. It has telepathy.. that may interfere with other telepaths

5. The morphing disc allows Diana to fight on the astral plane

6. It is controlled by Diana's mind and only hers.

7.It has been powerful enough to scan the universe

8. it has cutt of Martian Manhunters tp ...She already has strong tp defenses and then she has the morphing disk for even more tp defense on top of that The feat is on panel, stated, and shown for everyone to view.(We can agree to disagree, and let the public determine it's fate)

I got permission to use the morphing disc btw (I have all the feats for Diana).. 75 issues with major appearances and several hundred issues with minor appearances(both in and outside her own books) that she usually keeps around and even literally follows her i, counts as standard equip... I am not mad ....lol

Protection against Psionics

I actually wouldn’t need to do so when MMH is the strongest of telepath users and is the one to make the statement in the first place after experiencing his mental fortitude himself lmao Brainiac is top tier in tp anyway who’s mind raped everyone notable from the league to even doomsday

1. She can always see the truth so illusions don’t work, she couldn’t even be sealed by an entity that was manipulating the entire soul of the planet itself, as well as an amped sorcerer who was trying to seal her along with the trinity on a conceptual level. And take their power so that’d be ineffective as well. She’s even been able to retain her abilities just fine against gods who held dominion in their own domain. .

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2. Wondy is actually mentally immune since she can always see the truth and has GG’d the best telepathic user in DC for the cosmic tier. th WW’s passive psychic trauma that gave one of the top strongest telepaths feedback (MMH )

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3 Resists Planetary Scale mental manipulation from Maxwell Lord and from Brainiac (Look at the scans )

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more

4. Doctor Psycho is a telepath that has been able to induce people to see other realities, and wonder Woman hand no problem resisting him

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You didn't show the full scan... but anywho the morphing disc still cutt of the most power telepaths tp like nothing so lol

Lasso of Truth

he Lasso of Truth is the fundamental concept of truth for the universe and the one time it broke, all subjective truths became true (it didn't go well). Wonder Woman can use it to bind her foes at which point they must speak the truth and they must follow her commands. Of course, it doesn't need to bind them to work, it works on people who are just touching it and is strong enough t

It can negate magic in Pre-crisis

Truth manipulation. She literally burns away all powers or Influences that are not his with truth, so he’s getting left with just his actual power as that is his truth. If it comes from him and someone else sharing the same body, or power the body would revert to its original state as she’s been shown to even correct lies down to the genetic code. (This could apply to Kruuth )

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. Secondly, the lasso affects beings from humans to superhumans to sorcerers to ghosts to gods etc etc. You would need soul manipulation resistance and truth manipulation resistance of a high potency considering even high-end soul manipulation users are affected by the lasso. Characters who have tanked having an entire dimension of souls attacking theirs still have their soul affected. And the lasso is unbreakable unless Diana wavers in her own truth. If he is fused and there’s more than one person in him, or enhanced by something else ikk. Also Raven can manipulate enchantments etc .. as you saw with Neron's essence. In addition to this said, Kruuth has shown no defense against soul manipulation.... both of them have powerful soul manipulation.

If you don’t have high enough soul manipulation and truth manipulation resistance you’re getting affected it’s that simple. Stronger characters than cosmic tier couldn’t even break the lasso so it’s no way your character wouldn’t get affected... also especially by Raven that's her specialty... in demon form/Regular form

Simply compelling them, to tell the truth, is child’s play, the lasso literally even breaks false reality, corrects lies in genetic code, strips away false powers and reverts characters to their true self.

Especially when kruuth borrowed power and it will get negated ...h and lastly the lasso can tear cosmics to shreds, j

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League of America vol 2 #27)

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So what ?

Speed feats Wonder Woman regularly displays in her battles with speed blitz and is aggressive in her tactics

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  • She was able to speed blitz a White Martian
  • Reaches gunmen from a good distance
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Diana is to fast for supergirl , and supergirl was giving Barry some problems

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Wonder Woman deflects the pieces of the Shattered God coming from all the corners of the universe. 3rd scan shows her outflying the pieces with her speed. These shards had from Oa all the way to earth ...... and were trillions of fragments

Then there's Diana in Justice League of America #6 Diana lassoing amazo.

1. During Practice Diana is able to tag an in character wally west during training , and she sensed the currents

2. Diana was able to see use her tactical skills to see the pattern of wallys attacks and was able to strike a hit.

3.she lassos a mind-controlled wally, and stopped his speed....

4. I do also remember her being able to tag black flash.... in the 80's

.

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Wonder Woman #219 she snuck up on superman (on pane)

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Zoom confirmed Diana has gotten faster....and stated she can now contend with Wally west.

* Amazing Diana did it blindfolded

*

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Strength/Durability

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What Diana Struggling to move the earth? Martian's best physical strength feat is when he moved The Earth along with Superman and Wonder Woman, in JLA #75. However, all three are visibly straining while they are doing this, and they are barely able to move The Earth for very long (Team effort sorry).. I mean look at Superman's face lol.....Wonder woman is struggling the most lol....Superman looks like hes in pain ... Manhunter even says..... how long will your lasso hold us for .. like Ryan really ....><

.

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n fact, while I do acknowledge they were pulling it (which is an easier motion that pushing, btw), Kyle basically stepped in and released the strain from them.

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Diana took many blows from OMAC PRIME , which had the powers of all the Justice Leauge internation...

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And she withstood attacks from a mind-controlled Wally West.....

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n the five on panel fights that sup and WW have had in continuity, there has never been a clear victor and in each one, sacrifice is not the only example, Wonder Woman has held her own in other occasions as well., I'm not saying she's as powerful or more powerful than Superman,I don't believe that, she has held her own against Superman in every fight they have had, she has done just that.

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Wonder Woman again holds her own against superman and causes him damage.

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Then there was the time...Superman & Batman #46 where she punched batman with supermans powers from earth.. to the moon

Achilles... fought Diana in combat ... who took blows from Doomsday ..and went head to head with Geoforce ....

Wonder Woman #36

)

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Wonder Woman is quite strong, and I know she's not going to beat Fernus by herself.

Sword

L\her sword has some impressive damage output. It's cut Darkseid and God of Strength Superman (Justice League #6 & #47)

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tiara

Her tiara has been used as a boomerang !!! There is the time she's used it on a God , but I don't have the scans right now!!! I'd have to back and look

r:

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if she wanted to take off clarks head she would've

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Conclusion

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Well, I am quite aware that Diana is not as strong as Fernus. However, that doesn't mean she cannot last until Raven is done, because she has some durability to do so. In addition to this said, I've shown that Raven's soul-self is instantaneous ...and even if her body is tagged it doesn't stop her soul-self from acting.

Well, I am quite aware that Fernus is undeniably powerful. With this said, Diana has the durability, skillset, power, and speed to at least stay alive until Raven drops the women. In addition to this said, I've shown you the morphing disc which comes to Diana's aid, and followers her like a hound. In a consequence of this, I've shown you that Diana has a level of natural telepathic resistance and the morphing disc. I've pointed out that the morphing disc, has cut off Martian Manhunters telepathy without an issue. ( Diana has two forms of telepathic defenses to give her some room to last long )

  1. Diana has the durability to take blows until Raven can aid her.
  2. I've shown you that Diana speed has increased
  3. Her strength up there
  4. Overall the gear she uses

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In addition to this said, I've shown that Raven's soul-self can act instantaneously, and has tagged characters. Also, I've shown Raven doesn't even need a body to act, because the soul self regains consciousness, and can employ the same abilities. (Whether it be Evil Raven, white Raven, or even regular Raven) We're using morals off Raven, which is not prone to PIS like her morals on-base forum...

By the way my perk: is basic knowledge so they know who they're dealing with ... and what to expect somewhat. (Especially Zatanna ...who denied poor Raven entry to JLA ... because she was scared. Raven has faced her once before) Wonder Woman has worked with Raven before, and they were successful against Darkseid...

Oh heck , but there's no debate if you're stating right off bat that your team will win. That is not a realistic outcome if you have one character that can take a team of 15, and scoff at opponents as if they're insects. (Which occurred three times in demon form, and regular base form. I will not be including the first time she went evil, because Trigon was controlling her...

  1. She beat a team of 15 which included High Tiers Seven Deadly sins (stole powers from there father. Besides that their powers were all instantaneous reacting to wally west. Raven's sibling envy has warped himself into Wonder Woman, and yes Envy does take on the full power of those he turns into such as Barry Allen. She then went onto manhandling the titan's roster (including Donna/Wally which are high tier.
  2. She beat manhandled The Darkstars /tt
  3. In base form, she took the JLA /TT at the same time

Raven vs Zatanna

  1. Her magical barrier isn't doing a thing, because Raven cannot be teleported against her will. (Been tested by the monks of Azarath)
  2. Raven's magic (soul-self has dealt with stronger forces .....She was also absorbing with no problem Zauriel holy sword strike, which injures magical beings /cuts interdimensional rifts .through the protection veil raised by Pax Dei. In addition to this, she was able to remove neurons enchantments ....with struggle but thats a hell lord...
  3. Morals are off, that's a rule already established. So your argument that she has morals isn't valid. And if Raven has no morals then she's a literal beast. Raven can use her soul-self evil or good
  4. Zatanna has stated on numerous occasions that she uses her backward speech as an aid to a concentration not so much out of necessity, so arguably if she's casting spells without speaking then her concentration isn't on par as usual theoretically speaking.

5. Zatanna's magic isn't instantaneous. She casts her spells by saying the words of her incantations backward. Zatanna must concentrate on her magic to make sure she is using the proper spell. It is at this point where she is most vulnerable and she's messed up on her spells before. Mnemonic incantation is the most complicated of the mystic arts... She must be able to speak or read backward for her to focus her spells.

Raven vs Sue

Sue's force field has made it impossible for Jean to attack her with telekinesis. When Sue put a force field around Jean, her telekinetic attack upon various other people in the immediate vicinity had ceased as well.

However since her power is an extension of her mind and body, Invisible Woman is affected by inertial forces acting upon her projections. Unless she generated a bracing shape against a sufficiently sturdy object, she would be affected as though she were hit by a force directly. So, Raven's soul-self would be fully capable of breaking her forcefields, due to its immense speed. As I told you when written correctly and used during a serious manner it breached through the protection veil raised by Pax Dei and absorbed zauriels. Invisible woman is a force to be reckoned with, I'll give her that. She surprisingly has great resistance against telekinetic attacks.

Jean Grey vs Raven

Raven's soul-self can shatter Sue's forcefield that's around Jean. If she can hit Jean with the immense acceleration, speed and force of her soul-self then she would certainly be ripped apart. I showed you Raven's soul-self acts instantaneously, and has tagged high tier characters and affected new gods. That Soul Self would be immune to Jean Grey's molecular manipulation (Tk) because of its' astral energy. Like Jean Raven is a telempathic, and has the mental fortitude suited to combat telepaths. (Especially the 1980's version, and the New 52 version) The Soul Self when in morals off base form, is the manifestation of the damned portion of her father. (Not him, but the actual powers he bestowed Raven with ) We've seen it almost kill just by the touch, solo an entire team, shake through space, and negate abilities.

If Raven is successful at taking down the women and employing the right tactics she should be fine. With this said, Kruuth will be charging at her, and her best option is to teleport away briefly... or phase. When she teleports away, Raven has the entire underworld to serve her, but obviously, we will be using basic demons. Raven can use these demons to distract Kruuth, and have half of them interrupt the fight between Diana and Jon. (What saves Diana is the invisible plane / the morphing disc ... I told you it follows her )

Raven's demon mode like Martian Manhunter can take down rosters ( took 15 people like it was nothing.. Raven alone had solo Justice League, shot down a team so fast that Zatanna couldn't even start saying a word or anyone else to react somehow (beside Zatanna there were also WW, Capt Atom, Green Lantern, Batman, Hawkman.. while mind-controlling the tt ). ), but the difference is she has the seven sins. The women that have fallen can be seeded with the seven deadly sins, and can be controlled against there will. Sue and Zatanna's jobs are to shield against Kruuth.... and act as distractions..

Raven's Job is to teleport around with Jean and focus on soul manipulating Fernus..... Raven collects the souls of billions on a whim. no strain, and Jean has the ability from what I remember to amplify teammates. The combination of Raven's soul manipulation, and Jean's Pink form .... and Dianas morphing disc should be able to stop him possibly..... + Eyes of Athena ..

I don't see any immunity to soul manipulation for Jon ... and I told you that morphing disc stopped Jon without a strain.... Martian Manhunter was in pain... If Jon goes down Raven still has the ability to seed Jon with a seven deadly sin... if she wants too

Raven +Jdeadly sin Jean as a combo to try and take off His helmet ... while Deadly sin Zatanna magically tries to slow down Kruuth.... Dianas Job is to use the morphing disc to as protection and use the lasso to revert the truth.... That Lasso cannot be broken and has the power of Gods.

If this fails to work Then Raven will have to use another deadly sin, and use Jon possibly ....or I have one more skill up my alley

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TheVoidofDeath

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@thevoidofdeath:

Whoops correction astral energy that is a void to all dimensions !!!!

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#46 emperorthanos-  Moderator  Online
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@geekryan: you have a few more days left

I had sent you a PM a few days ago!

Just let Void go into the next round. I don't have any motivation to finish this tbh

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#48 emperorthanos-  Moderator  Online
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@thevoidofdeath: Sorry Void! I've been busy with work and lost the motivation to finish this. Good luck in the next round though!

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#50  Edited By TheVoidofDeath  Online

@geekryan:

Oh okay , I know you're busy I've seen you in like 5 different debates lol .

P.s My name is Ashley:)