2020 High Tier SBT 1st Edition RD1: Ashrym vs Thewatcherking

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emperorthanos-

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#1  Edited By emperorthanos-  Moderator

Well folks it is time my the first round of the Squad Builders Tourney.

@ashrym

Characters:

  • Superman 4
  • Cyborg 3
  • Magik 3
No Caption Provided

Perks:

  • morals off (8)
  • prep anywhere (5)
  • mind link (2)
No Caption Provided

@thewatcherking

Characters:

  • Majin Buu for 9
  • Shadow king for 1
No Caption Provided

Perks:

  • Mind/soul immunity 7
  • Perfect teamwork 5
  • Invisibility 2
  • And 1 hour of prep

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. Time Jumping, remnants, speeding up ones own time is allowed. Other forms of time manip is banned.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Power Copying/stealing.
  8. No Summons, constructs or any other fodder stronger than 616 Bleeding Edge Iron Man.
  9. Summons are limited to 200
  10. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote is unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet inside a Solar System like others, with no other people on it except for the fighters.

No Caption Provided

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TheWatcherKing

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@ashrym I’d like for you to go first if that’s alright

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Ashrym

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@ashrym I’d like for you to go first if that’s alright

Sure. I have another tournament I'm also posting first so this might be a day or two.

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#5 geekryan  Online

TAEP

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This looks cool. TAEP

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Taep

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DBZ vs Superman....Looking forward to this

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Ashrym

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@thewatcherking: Things got hectic here. Might not be up until Saturday. If you want to wait or open first I'm good either way.

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Someone using Vic? Hell yeah

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@thewatcherking: Sorry I am behind. I am working on it and hope to have it up tonight. You can always just tell people I was afraid of facing you and Buu to the pass the time for now. ;-)

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TAEP

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The Opening Salvo

I'll keep the intro's short. I'd skip them completely but some people might not know all the characters.

Superman is an alien from a doomed planet sent to Earth as a baby and raised by a good couple who raised him in a way he became a champion of truth and justice. He draws power from Earth's yellow sun to make him one of the most powerful beings on the planet. His powers include superhuman strength, superhuman durability, superhuman speed, flight, superhuman sense, heat vision, and freeze breath.

Cyborg was horrifically injured as a young man and his father saved his life by turning him into a Cyborg. Cyborg incorporates alien and time displaced future tech from START Lab's Red Room and includes the incorporation of a Motherbox. The Motherbox has been adapting his tech over time and he claims to be the most advanced technology in the multiverse. Cyborg is technopathic, technomorphic, has superhuman durability, superhuman strength, superhuman perceptions, teleportation, various forms of energy projection and force fields, and regeneration among his prominent abilities.

Magik is a mutant teleporter who was trapped in the dimension of Limbo as a child where she lived into her teenage years. She learned combat and magic until she eventually overthrew Belasco (the current ruler) and become a demon sorceress ruler of her own hell-like dimension. Magik is an extremely powerful magic user with a wide variety of abilities that fall under "magic". She can teleport through space, time, and into other dimensions using her mutant abilities. Her demonic forms grant superhuman levels of strength, speed, and durability. Magik is also the creator and user of the Soulsword, a significant powerful weapon in the Marvel universe.

Perks

Morals get in the way of these characters on a regular basis. Morals off gives available options these characters would never normally go for. For example, Magik typically denies her power and Cyborg generally fights being a machine in favor of preserving his humanity.

Cyborg's ability to integrate with technology give his a huge advantage with the prep anywhere perk.

No Caption Provided

There are many suitable options to leverage this ability with "anywhere" and I like to use Cyberion since it's already an historical version of Cyborg. Moral off Cyborg merges with the Cyberion structure during prep. He will act as an orbiting space station larger than the moon at the outer limit of the battlefield.

Because this is a shared universe, Cyborg will also be researching his opponents via subspace signals and Magik already knows Shadow King.

Magik is going to begin with creating time remnants / time clones via time travel summoning. She normally avoids alternate time versions to prevent paradox but morals off will remove that restraint. The time remnants will be 5 Cyborgs, 2 Supermen, and 3 Magiks. The brings my team up to Superman*3, Magik*4, and Cyborg*6.

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Magik will cast the soul shape spell on the Supermen to bind them to her and add demonic traits. She's been practicing soul manipulation since basic instruction, long before her mastery of magic. We'll get into the important relevance if it comes up.

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Cyborg is capable of directly manipulating bleed energy, stepping inside and outside the multiverse, stepping into hypertime, linking his teammates using bleed energy to facilitate communication inside and out of time or the multiverse, and more. Leaving one remnant in hypertime allows my team the ability to avoid self-BFR while relaying time flow information to simulate precognition.

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A mother box was able to map out and give detailed information on the ghost sector to give Cyborg more information than he needs compared to the size of this battlefield. He can easily manage the information flow from hypertime needed to simulate precognition.

Cyborg will be using Cyberion's drones for the 200 summons limit.

No Caption Provided

Those are Earth's heroes encased in stasis fields.

Superman will elevate his speed and perceptions during the final stages of prep instead of starting at base and putting the extra effort in during the fight.

The beginning of the battle brings us to 4 active Cyborgs in the field, 1 Cyborg relaying time stream and battlefield data from hypertime, 1 Cyborg/Cyberion space station, 4 Magiks in the field, and 3 demon enhanced Supermen in the field. Cyborg also has 200 hundred drones. The team has at least basic knowledge and precog to work with.

The team is bonded by Cyborg's bleed energy manipulation and connected via mind link.

Sometimes the Best Defense is a Good Offense

I am not actually sure why Buu rates a 9, tbh, but I trust Watcher will demonstrate it at some point. Mind/soul immunity is good defense for Buu, but Magik and Cyborg have other hax to fall back on. In this case we will focus on telefragging and stasis fields.

Boom tube telefrag bypasses Orion's durability.

The Golem exploded destroying the star system in the process and Orion survived it.

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Cyborg manipulates boom tube and bleed energy regularly and it was his unstable boom tube use that fractured space / time as well as repaired space time in his Darkseid BFR feat.

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Cyborg is a mass teleporter, capable of creating hundreds of these unstable boom tubes at a time. Normally the risk involved would prevent that, but morals off solves that issue here. Between the 4 Cyborgs in the field and Cyberion station Cyborg can create thousands at a time. I am unaware of an ability Buu has to prevent such hax, but if necessary Magik will telefrag him too to soften him up but cutting him into smaller pieces.

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Magik has telefragged other opponents, but the Magus tears apart stars and throws them at opponents. This scan demonstrates the effectiveness of teleportation hax regardless of durability.

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Cyborg runs probability analysis, anti-evasion, and nanosecond perceptions and response time to land these attacks. If Buu somehow proves to be too fast for nanosecond reactions Supermen will direct the attacks through their mind link at his perception speeds. If Magik needs to soften up Buu and needs the speed Supermen or Cyborgs will direct it through the mind link.

In the event Buu can actually survive this, the teleporters will teleport him into stasis cells before his regenerative state can be completed for an incap win.

Sometimes the Best Defense is a Good Defense too...

I'm going to keep this short. My team has a lot of defensive options but avoiding attacks in the first place is the initial strategy. Superman or Cyborg will manage Magik's teleportation at their perception speeds and hypertime monitoring to time skip any attack Buu makes.

Simple and effective.

Dealing with Shadow King

Cyborg and Magik both have strong resistances on which to rely here.

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Cyborg resisted Eclipso, Maxwell Lord, and it several hours for Braniac to find a way to take control of him.

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Magik has demonstrated she likes to let telepaths into her mind whom she knows just to freak them out as shown with Emma Frost and the Cuckoos. She's also shown she's susceptible to TP attacks when she's separating herself from her power and trying to live a more normal life. When she claims her power she's capable of shutting out Charles Xavier and Emma Frost. Morals off means full TP defenses are up because she's going to embrace her power instead of reject it.

The Supermen don't have the TP resistance feats for someone on Shadow King's level even with the demonic enhancements but the mind link is going to offer protection. She will use her Soulsword to kill Shadow King inside a Superman by entering it via mind link like she did Legion's personalities in his mind 1, 2, 3. Shadow King will need to deal with up to 4 versions of Magik killing his psyche via Soulsword as opposed to Legion's single Magik.

Summary

I did not bother with the counters for the invisibility. Cyborg and Superman have senses that can track objects they cannot see, Magik has tracking spells, and they can share via mind link. If you want feats for it I'll add them to my next post.

This is just an opening strategy. I'll also get into more of Cyborg and Magik's versatility or hax, and Superman's raw power as needed.

Right now my team has the numbers advantage along with strong hax and defenses.

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Ashrym

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#16  Edited By APEX_pretador  Online

Tag for every post created

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#18 APEX_pretador  Online
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#19  Edited By cKarma

Yikes lmao this oughtta be entertaining

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Ashrym

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@apex_pretador: I'll let you handle tags then if you want and we'll avoid double tagging. :-)

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#21 APEX_pretador  Online

@ashrym: wait, I wanted to be tagged for each post, not tag people

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Ashrym

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This is awesome guys

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#24  Edited By TheWatcherKing

Majin Buu

No Caption Provided

Bio

Though it was once thought that Bibidi made him, in truth Buu actually has existed since time immemorial. He cycled between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent. The evil wizard Bibidi merely knew the means of calling Buu from out of his long slumber.This monster was a virtually invincible force of destruction, and, because of his absolutely wild and ruthless nature, he could not be controlled, even by Bibidi himself.Due to the destruction caused by both Kid Buu, Majin Buu developed a fearsome reputation in Universe 7, enough that King Cold warned Frieza to never oppose Majin Buu.

https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Kid_Buu

Now since I have a composite Buu I will go over his main forms from weakest to strongest.

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  1. Fat Buu
  2. Evil Buu
  3. Kid Buu
  4. Super Buu
  5. Buutenks
  6. Buuhan

This is important for this debate, as I have a composite Buu.Meaning anything performed by Fat Buu would casually be performed by Buuhan. With that said let’s get on with what Buu can do.

Attack power

Kid Buu is strong enough to match SSJ3 Goku, creating massive shockwaves on Supreme Kai’s planet and even causes craters.

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Now this may not sound impressive.... until you realize how large this planet actually is. Look no further than Daizenshuu 7 for the answer.

Kaioushin Realm

The world where the Kaioushin, the highest ranking beings among the Kaiou, live. Its scope is about one-tenth of the combined space of the World Beyond and the Living World. Endlessly revolving around the circumference of the World Beyond and the Living World, they watch over the entire world and take balance. Planet Kaioushin makes up the center of the Kaioushin Realm. Planet Kaioushin is a solitary planet in the Kaiou Realm, and around it, there are numerous tiny suns. The only people in the Kaioushin Realm are Kaioushin, and Kibito, who acts as support.

So said planet is so large that it literally has dozens of small stars orbiting it, and we see said stars here

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Of course, like any DB character he can blow up the planet casually. As Kid Buu shown when he first appeared, he instantly blows up the earth(was stated to be enough to blow up earth 10x over) instead of fighting Goku and Vegeta.

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This should be enough for now(I will show more when I feel it’s needed)but keep in mind both of those were kid Buu and I have a composite version.

Speed

Vegeta was capable of sensing the ginyu force coming at FTL speeds in pods towards the planet. Which is noteworthy because people use Ki sensing to keep up with opponents in combat.

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Yet he couldn’t at all detect Freiza(despite being more powerful due to experiencing several zenkais)when he moves while heavily suppressed.

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Freiza in his final form can fire energy blasts that appeared as nothing more than a flash of light.

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When Goku faced Freiza he was able to easily deflect all of these in his base form.

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And escaped Freiza’s paralyzing light with super speed.

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Despite that at 50% Freiza was capable of easily blitzing him.

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Once Goku went ssj not only was he able to blitz Freiza, but was so fast Freiza struggledto tag him at all.

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So how does Buu compare with this?

Kid Buu had no problem keeping up with an all out ssj3 Goku( keep in mind SSJ3 is 8x ssj)

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And even Fat Buu is capable of surprising ssj3 Goku with his speed, seemingly blitzing Goku after he gets pissed off. And also shown he could blitz the likes of base Gotenks.

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And as Super Buu, fought evenly with ssj3 Gotenks who is above even the likes of ssj3 Goku.

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As with power I will give more speed feats as I feel the need arises, however this should be enough for now.

Regeneration/Durability

We’ve already established how durable Buu is from his feats of trading blows with SSJ3 Goku and Gotenks evenly but his regeneration is what’s even more noteworthy.

Here Vegeta puts all his power in a single attack costing him his life in an attempt to kill Buu, and Buu survives by regenerating from it. And Vegeta has been able to easily blow up planets since the saiyan saga, and was a ssj2 here which is a 100x base multiplier.

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Regenerates from ashes.

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Casually regenerates from being vaporized.

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So putting him down will be no easy task.

Hax

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1-2. Matter manipulation that Buu uses to turn Dabura into a cookie.

3-5. Can absorb people

6. Telekinesis

7. Clones

8. Forcefields

He also has weird abilities like this, so he doesn’t need to be anywhere near his opponents to beat them down with punches. He also has the ability to sense ki(allowing him to know where his opponents are and their power) and teleport.

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1. Tells Gohan how he sensed him while he was in otherworld, which is a place outside of the physical universe.

2-4. After seeing Supreme Kai do it once he copies his instantaneous movement allowing him to teleport to the world of the gods, which again exists outside the universe.

He’s also a gifted fighter, consistently impressing Goku even in DBS, who is straight up one of(if not the most) skilled mortal in the DB multiverse. Goku, who can learn the complete form of UI, a technique the gods across the multiverse haven’t even mastered despite having millions of years to do so, in less than an hour.

Shadow King

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Psionic power

Manipulates the hate and fear of people around the world and feeds on it.

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Charles states Shadow king and himself are likely the strongest telepaths ever produced.

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Fought with Charles for 1,000 years on the astral plane.

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After which he kept Charles imprisoned for centuries, only being able to break out when Shadow King’s focus was divided. While he does say he stopped struggling Charles makes it clear initially he put everything into escaping and couldn’t.

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And last but not least, took over the X Men which included people like Rachel Gray and Psylocke.

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This should suffice for now, but Shadow King’s TP is no joke.

Prep

I have one hour of prep and that will be used for Shadow King to possess Buu, similar to how he did Legion after his previous host was killed.

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Alternatively, Buu could possibly just absorb Shadow King but regardless of the method Buu and Shadow King will be one merged fighter in this match. And it’s not like either character will try to resist either, due to my perfect teamwork. What’s more is that Shadow King will be significantly amped upon possessing Buu, not just in terms of physicals but in psionic power. Remember Shadow king feeds on negative emotions and grows stronger because of them.

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This matters because Buu is literally described as evil incarnate and this was confirmed by AT himself in a Q&A a while back.

Though in the manga Kaiōshin said that Bibbidi made him, the truth is that one called “Boo” was not actually created by Bididi, but has existed since time immemorial. He cycled between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent. Bibbidi merely knew the means of calling Boo from out of his long slumber.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/saikyo-jump-june-2014-issue-twel-buu-mysteries/

Buu is a being that’s been around since time immemorial, absorbing the evil elements of countless alien races for an untold number of eons. And that’s the evil Shadow King will be feeding on, after feeding on the evil across the world Shadow King stomped Charles so bad his physical body was crippled from their fight in the astral plane.

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And barely survived the first attack Shadow king hit him with despite his psychic armor.

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So Shadow King will be amped well above his normal levels here, while having access to Buu’s stats and abilities. Also for simplicity I’ll be referring to the fused Shadow King and Buu as Shadow Buu. Other than that Shadow Buu can make clones of himself, all of which would be invisible according to ET.

Counters

Because this is a shared universe, Cyborg will also be researching his opponents via subspace signals and Magik already knows Shadow King.

ET has already confirmed that it’s not a shared universe when I asked him, although yeah Magik would know who Shadow King is.

Magik is going to begin with creating time remnants / time clones via time travel summoning. She normally avoids alternate time versions to prevent paradox but morals off will remove that restraint. The time remnants will be 5 Cyborgs, 2 Supermen, and 3 Magiks. The brings my team up to Superman*3, Magik*4, and Cyborg*6.

This isn’t what morals off means, you’re treating it like you can argue your characters doing anything under the sun that they wouldn’t normally do but that’s not the case. I asked ET about this and it’s not an out of character perk, it’s a morals off perk which is different. Your characters will have no problem killing but it doesn’t mean they will act out of character otherwise. A morals off Batman would have no problem putting a Batarang in a thugs skull but he wouldn’t drop a nuke to stop a bank robbery. Both things are possible for him, but one is wildly out of character for him and isn’t going to happen. A loss in morals doesn’t mean Magik would do this, an out of character perk isn’t the same as a morals off perk.

You need to prove that Magik would do this cause so far I’m not convinced.

Magik will cast the soul shape spell on the Supermen to bind them to her and add demonic traits. She's been practicing soul manipulation since basic instruction, long before her mastery of magic.

Which Superman would allow because....? Due to your mind link both cyborg and Superman would know about her wanting to do this the second she thinks about It, and you don’t have perfect teamwork like I do. Cyborg and Superman know and trust each other, same can’t be said for Magik. Though that scan says they have a simple soul, presumably compared to a human. Can you prove that she can manipulate the soul of someone like Superman(and of that’s in limbo do it outside of limbo)? And can you even prove those “enhancements” will do any good to him in the first place?

Cyborg will be using Cyberion's drones for the 200 summons limit.

Non factors, a Casual ki large planet attack would wipe them all out since they can only be iron man level at best. In fact, this would go for your entire team. You have given no durability feats for anyone, and not even Superman is anywhere near as powerful as Shadow Buu. Quite frankly, as soon as this battle starts, it would be over when Buu unleashes an attack in this level.

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It doesn’t matter how much fodder you have if they’re incapable of surviving an attack on this magnitude, something Buu scales well above.

Boom tube telefrag bypasses Orion's durability.

You didn’t show this but I don’t care, telefragging is beyond useless as I’ll get to in a second.

I am unaware of an ability Buu has to prevent such hax, but if necessary Magik will telefrag him too to soften him up but cutting him into smaller pieces

First off, let’s talk about speed. Everyone is too slow to even attempt this against Shadow Buu from what I have seen of them(and based on their point values). You act like everyone is capable of keeping up with each other... they’re not. Buu is far beyond the speed of light, and you have given no speed feats for cyborg or Magik. But even if they could telefragg Buu... so what? Buu would effortlessly regen from being cut up or just reattach his body(1,2,3). Buu doesn’t have any internal organs either, so it’s not like it harms him in any meaningful way. I don’t even think this is something you would want to do considering it would just split up Buu leaving something like this.....

On top of that before this Shadow Buu has already made as many clones of himself as the limits allow, and you have no speed feats to say any of you can tag Buu.

Cyborg runs probability analysis, anti-evasion, and nanosecond perceptions and response time to land these attacks.

Even if I take that statement seriously so what? Perception speed isn’t combat or even reaction speed, it’s literally just the speed at which you can see events which is useless. Wally West was able to Essentially statue Superman, running around the country and defeat the Turtle but Superman was able to perceive and register the flash was there for instance.

Cyborg seeing and processing things in nanosecond timespans doesn’t mean he can fight or act in those timespans, though Buu is significantly faster even if he could do that. Buu was able to react to a point blank blast from Buu saga Vegeta as a ssj2 casually....

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...who seven years before in an inferior ssj form(ssj which is provides a 50x base boost unlike ssj2 which gives 100x base boost) fired a blast that seemingly left the solar system in seconds.

In the event Buu can actually survive this, the teleporters will teleport him into stasis cells before his regenerative state can be completed for an incap win.

I don’t believe you’ve shown feats for this to prove it could work to begin with, hell you still haven’t proven anyone survives a second after the battle starts given a casual blast would wipe out everyone on your team unless your characters have large planet-star level durability.

Plus I have clones, and the chances are with the speed difference you aren’t incapping 11 of Shadow buu before you all die physically or psychically.

If Buu somehow proves to be too fast for nanosecond reactions Supermen will direct the attacks through their mind link at his perception speeds.

Perceptions don’t equal reactions.... and you can’t share speed through a mind link. That’s not how a mind link works, Superman’s perceptions won’t increase Magik’s or Cyborg’s processing speeds. This is also an awful showing for Superman’s speeds, he’s processing things in an attosecond but is struggling to move at massively hypersonic speeds in the same scans.Which would mean Superman wouldn’t even be able to tag the likes of Buu despite being the fastest person on your team.

I'm going to keep this short. My team has a lot of defensive options but avoiding attacks in the first place is the initial strategy. Superman or Cyborg will manage Magik's teleportation at their perception speeds and hypertime monitoring to time skip any attack Buu makes.

You didn’t show feats for the time skip, though again Cyborg’s and Superman’s speeds don‘t transfer to Magik mind link or not.

Shadow King

Cyborg resisted Eclipso, Maxwell Lord, and it several hours for Braniac to find a way to take control of him.

You didn’t show feats for anyone, however Shadow King is able to fight for years on the astral plane just fine. Remember time on the astral plane moves much quicker than in real time, as years in the astral plane only equals a few moments in the real world

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You’re gonna need to prove Cyborg can withstand the assault of a high tier telepath for years with no sign of faltering to not be overcome by Shadow King. Same goes for Magik.

Magik has demonstrated she likes to let telepaths into her mind whom she knows just to freak them out as shown with Emma Frost and the Cuckoos. She's also shown she's susceptible to TP attacks when she's separating herself from her power and trying to live a more normal life. When she claims her power she's capable of shutting out Charles Xavier and Emma Frost. Morals off means full TP defenses are up because she's going to embrace her power instead of reject it.

Shadow King is amped and will be above either. Even an unamped shadow king can down Professor X.

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While Magik’s defenses are formidable, you need to prove they can withstand an extended assault. Something to note is that Shadow Buu will be attacking them on the physical and mental planes, and by the looks of your post it seems they need their undivided attention to fend off my team on either front, which makes winning all the more unlikely for you.

The Supermen don't have the TP resistance feats for someone on Shadow King's level even with the demonic enhancements but the mind link is going to offer protection.

It literally wouldn’t.... it would just offer an easy means of bypassing those defenses you were talking about.

Shadow king has already shown he can get into people’s minds by exploiting their mind links....

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...so this isn’t a good look for you.

She will use her Soulsword to kill Shadow King inside a Superman by entering it via mind link like she did Legion's personalities in his mind 1, 2, 3. Shadow King will need to deal with up to 4 versions of Magik killing his psyche via Soulsword as opposed to Legion's single Magik

Shadow King=/= legion’s personalities, and anyway did you just forget that I have a mind/soul immunity perk? Killing Shadow King psyche on the astral plane can’t happen, even if you were to prove it was within Magik’s capability. Meaning you don’t have a way to beat the shadow king unless there is more to what your team can do than you’ve shared.

I did not bother with the counters for the invisibility. Cyborg and Superman have senses that can track objects they cannot see, Magik has tracking spells, and they can share via mind link. If you want feats for it I'll add them to my next post

Yeah but this doesn’t transfer to your viewing the future, so you won’t see anything other than Buu blowing everything up and not knowing the assailant until the battle starts.

Initial thoughts

  • Shadow Buu is the single strongest character by a wide margin here.
  • No one has the speed to keep up with Buu
  • No one has the durability to tank his attacks
  • You can’t destroy the shadow King’s psyche.... when I explicitly have mind/soul immunity.
  • Prove Magik will make time displaced clones, you’re treating morals off like an out of character perk.
  • Summons mean nothing when an effortless attack can wipe them all out along with your team.
  • From what I can tell your team gets physically and psychically destroyed.
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TheWatcherKing

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