@maalik: I'll tey and get something up today or tomorrow. Surprised you dont know my characters, this is avout the nost mainstream team Ive ever used inna tourney.
@maalik: so sorry about delay. Will get to this over the weekend. I started writing my opener a couple of nights ago but didnt get far. Trying to homeschool my three kids by day (during isolation) and work by night is leaving me totally wasted
well normally I'd make an introduction to my characters. the thing is in this one I have a character that is a fussion of all my picks, which changes things up dramatically
This category is important because my Opponent has Nate Grey.
almost everyone on my team has TP resistance or TP power.
Hellstrom's trident ahs a psionic field that resisted the telepathic control of Mindstar who could TP control a continent. there is also the fact that when someone tries to control his mind they they unleash his darksoul which takes over and can't be controlled
Gallery
Juggernaut has many instances of resisting TP, even that of Captain Universe with the uni power.
Gallery
Arion casually TP controls entire armies and even when completely depowered with just the strength of his will resists mental attacks
Xavier has TP contained a phoenix force infused Cyclops
Silver Surfer has lost to Hell lords like Mephisto many times. Hellstrom is a hell lord and is only a part of the power my fusion will have.
Nate Grey psionic power will be useless and pale in comparison the the fused psionic power of my character
Prep
My Prep will be simple using Arion's ability to watch the future to see how the battle will play out
Gallery
Before the battle begins my fusion will know everything your team will do before they do it and be prepared for it.
I will summon 200 of these with the magic knowledge of Arion
And will genetically alter them as Arion did to fight Superman so that they are powerful enough to fight heralds
Using Hellstrom's power over time I will alter my relative rate of time to make my team many times faster than my opponent
the rules say we are allowed to use time to speed up our team and this is how it appeared to be to those with Helstrom.
I will then use Hellstrom's power to create duplicates to make 25 clones of my fusion (as per the rules limit)
When the battle begins I will have 200 summons able to engage my opponents and 25 of my self vastly faster than anyone on my opponents team, vastly stronger, vastly more durable, and with universal level magical power to crush them.
As far as I can tell, your team is certainly impressive and I will always applaud your ability to take more esoteric characters or versions of those characters in the case of Guy during his vuldarian warrior run, and create something which is surely a force to be reckoned with. However, after doing my own research and reading, I believe my team is perfectly equipped to dispatch your fusion here and proceed. This will be 1 of 3 posts I intend to make in this debate.
Brief Introduction
Shaman Nate Grey
The genetically engineered, alternate dimension son of Jean Grey and Scott Summers. Nate Grey was by Mister Sinister with the intentions of destroying Apocalypse. Eventually however he was transported to the 616 Universe where he would have many interactions with the X-men, Jean Grey and others which would eventually lead to the realization of his full powers where he would be known as the shaman of mutants.
Powers:
All of Nate grey's powers and showings are based in telekinesis and telepathy, which include his speed, flight, and durability. He's showcased feats of matter and energy manipulation, time control and reality warping that all stem from his psi-abilities. He is arguably one of the best telepaths and telekinetics in the marvel universe. He is our teams premier offense and defense on the mental front.
Hal Jordan
At first a pilot, Hal Jordan was gifted a green lantern ring by a dying Abin Sur. Hal became the first Green Lantern of earth after the ring chose him, and Hal became the protector and hero of sector 2814, and eventually became a founding member of the justice league.
Powers:
All of these powers stem from Hal's green lantern ring, however, the power of the ring itself is derived from Hal's willpower, which lends itself to be Hal's most impressive asset. Hal has the greatest willpower of any green lantern and thus, is arguably the most powerful because of it.
Super strength, able to compete and defeat superman level beings
Super-speed
Durability, including automatic force fields
Various constructs limited only by Hal's imagination. Includes shields he can put on himself and his team
Energy manipulation includes projection and absorption
Willpower-based telepathy resistance
Flight
Along with a few esoteric abilities I may point out as needed in the debate. Note that this is a composite green lantern Hal, but I will primarily be using pre-52 feats for his durability showings as they are better before flash-point.
The Spacial Specter, Black Silver Surfer
Norrin Radd, originally an astronomer on the planet Zenn-La, the course of his life was changed dramatically when Galactus threatened to devour his planet. Only by becoming his herald could Radd save his world, and so was born the silver surfer. Eventually, Norrin would betray galactus and be condemned to earth where his powers were weakened, however, Norrin has since escaped the barrier, and become all the more powerful. Currently, silver surfer has become a ghost in the sense that he cannot physically be touched as of the events of silver surfer: black. He cannot physically interact with matter, and it cannot interact with him, he can however utilize energy projection, which is likewise effective on him.
Powers and abilities
Matter Manipulation
Energy Manipulation
Cosmic Senses
Intangibility
Superhuman speed, strength and durability
Regeneration
Flight
Telepathy
Telekinesis
General Counters
Responding to some details and statements made in your introduction relevant to the battle.
Guy has durability that Tanks punches from Superman,
While guy is certainly no slouch, I do want to point out for the readers that in this scan superman was holding back greatly. Also, in guy gardner: warrior #30 Superman was able to effectively knock him out, although Guy did wake up and continue fighting him sometime later
Gallery
This is to say that while being able to survive punches from superman is impressive, its not going to help you out in this battle and juggernaut is easily the best source to draw durability feats from in this battle, considering superman-tier characters CAN knock guy out, and Hal's strength is easily comparable to clark's. Though I know your character is a fusion, I'm not sure if attributes like durability are added or you simply use whichever is greater.
add to this the combined force fields of Arion,
Just want to point out that when this took place in superman #667, the force field was specifically attuned to keep superman out
Gallery
And it was destroyed by the weight of the Atlantic ocean, so I would wager that attacks from someone like Silver surfer on my team wouldn't have much issue penetrating your force-fields.
There is also the fact that the combination grants regeneration from guy (he has an organ that can regrow vital organs),
I don't think this is the case mostly because the narration says that
His ancestors figured he'd need a spare, not that it is an ability of his to regrow vital organs, rather he had an extra.
Add to this Juggernaut's seemingly slow healing factor, I believe its safe to say any damage my team does to your composite character is going to stick.
The matter of telepathy
TP resistance
This category is important because my Opponent has Nate Grey.
I'm not actually going to push the TP argument very much, however I will say, Nate has feats of pulling Xavier out of the astral plane (something that was noted that not even the phoenix was capable of) and battling him in X-Man #10, in addition, Nate's psychic ability was stated to be stronger than anyone Xavier had ever felt before, in x-men prime, and that his power rivaled the dark phoenix.
The reason that I'm not pushing the TP argument much is because Xavier is still powerful in terms of TP himself, however it should be noted that its still a threat from my team regardless, and I don't think anyone else on your team is very comparable to either of them in TP with the exception of maybe daimon.
Cosmic level magic
with this build he will have access to the power of Cyttorak, power that will allow him to command the fabric of the universe
I'd just like to point out that while your character could potentially control whatever power Cyttorak bestows upon juggs, I want to clarify that there's a difference between having the power to command the fabric of the universe and universal level magic which I believe you imply you have later on in your post.
See in juggernaut vol 1 when this took place, D'Spayre had siphoned enough of juggernauts life energy that it allowed him to use the power of cyttorak, stating that he'd gotten the same amount of energy he could've gotten from a thousand cities worth of people.
Gallery
However, D'Spayre was using the power to "command the fabric of the universe" in order to open a breach in space-time that allowed him to open a portal to hell
So while you could probably do something like this, you likely wouldn't have the universal level magical power you intended to. Which makes sense, if d'spayre had universal magic he wouldn't have simply reduced jugg's to bone, he'd have erased him from existence.
Sure, guy is an extraordinary character no doubt in that he's been able to do that, but we both know he couldn't do something like this against someone like hal. It isn't much of an advantage on your part, considering Hal's willpower is the strongest out of nearly everyone. We've seen before that vuldarian guy could be taken down by superman, someone hal easily rivals in damage output. I don't think there's much in the way for me to substantiate here, it should be self evident for everyone including the voters. Basically, the vuldarian part of your fusion is outmatched by hal here.
Silver Surfer has lost to Hell lords like Mephisto many times. Hellstrom is a hell lord and is only a part of the power my fusion will have.
Surfer actually hasn't lost to Mephisto many times. They fought a bit throughout silver surfer vol 1 #16-17 where Mephisto was clearly superior but surfer could still hurt him, but that was a very early Norrin.Surfer briefly overpowered him in his own realm on one occasion in Silver Surfer vol 2 #1
And then managed to defeat him with the help of valkyrie in Defenders Vol 1 #100. Which, interestingly enough, hellstrom appeared in. They may have fought again after that but I'm not sure myself, in any case, Surfer certainly doesn't have a bad track record against mephisto or any hell-lord for that matter.
With that in mind, Norrin's power will fair well against the daimon side of your fusion, especially considering the battle isn't in any sort of hell which might increase his powers.
Nate Grey psionic power will be useless and pale in comparison the the fused psionic power of my character
While I won't push the TP argument very much, Nate is still the best telepath in this battle, and his telepathy isn't the only offensive power he brings to the table.
Nate's telekinetic abilities are by far his most useful asset here in this battle, and the versatility and precision he has shown will certainly be a threat against your team. For example, in X-Man #21 he was able to telekinetically (not telepathy) interrupt the currents in a crowds brains to freeze them where they stood
Or his TK armor he can create which amped him enough to send the hulk flying
Gallery
This armor he can put on himself or anyone on my team to boost their stats.
'or how shaman nate could take himself apart and reform himself to avoid being physically hit by qabiri in X-Man #74
Mind you he was also taking attacks from qabiri, a planet buster.
But my primary asset in this battle will certainly be Norrin Radd.
Your prep
My Prep will be simple using Arion's ability to watch the future to see how the battle will play out
Impressive. For fun I'll just demonstrate that my team is capable of seeing into the future as-well
Gallery
from silver surfer vol 3 #138 and dark x-men #3respectively
Before the battle begins my fusion will know everything your team will do before they do it and be prepared for it.
Battle relevant. Three of your characters in your fusion are from Marvel and surfer's cosmic awareness would let him know of your powers as the battle starts as-well.
And will genetically alter them as Arion did to fight Superman so that they are powerful enough to fight heralds
Not to discredit your monsters or anything, but I have to point out for fairness sake these monsters were altered new-gods and superman could fend off the 2 of them on his own in superman annual #13, while trying not to hurt them.
I do believe they would be effectively fodder to my team, which is probably your intention. Pressure nonetheless on my team for sure but its nothing aoe attacks can't kill.
Using Hellstrom's power over time I will alter my relative rate of time to make my team many times faster than my opponent
Now I have to be necessarily skeptical of this for a few reasons. Your team is normally already slower than Hal or Norrin operating at their best which is something we should agree on. But you claim to be able to make your team not simply equal to mine in speed, but many times faster? I didn't even really want to play the speed argument since no one in this battle is really known for blitzing their enemies, except surfer on occasion with MFTL bullrushes.
At the very least, Nate on my team is also capable of temporal manipulation to an extent, and Hal has shown the ability to dilate time as-well in action comics #642. But I'm still dubious on Hellstorm's ability to speed up his own relative time enough in combat that'd allow him to be much faster than my team. In fact, reading his appearances in defenders at-least, I don't believe he's ever done something on that level, of course im open to being wrong.
But for now, I'm going to say you don't have the speed advantage here.
The Battle itself ; why we win
Simply put, I believe my team outmatches my opponent fusion in both power and versatility. I mean, enter silver surfer for example. Planetary level telepath, superior in speed and power to your team arguably as-well as possessing the ability to absorb your energy attacks or manipulate them. Considering your character is a fusion with hell magic trying to kill him, it's not like he'll be holding back here like he does in many instances in comics, which has caused him to lose fights he should've stomped. In silver surfer: black #1 he created a star to kill knull's underlings
And this isn't the first time he's shown this level of power, in annihilation: silver surfer #1 his energy projection was capable of creating a black hole, something that would require star-level energy projection to accomplish
Gallery
In short, I don't believe your fusion(s) could survive this level of power surfer possesses. In addition, he is passively intangible now, meaning your physical attacks powered by the likes of juggs and guy will be useless against him as shown in avengers vol 8 #28
So, while unfortunately Surfer can't make use of his impressive physicals either (where he was capable of beating down beta ray bill), you can't harm him that way either. Which leaves your magic and energy projection. And as far as magic goes, surfer has dealt with loki before in silver surfer vol 1 #4
Gallery
And I don't believe that Arion is more impressive in terms of magical ability than loki even at his best.
Also, you mentioned that hellstrom had the ability to heal, well, so does Norrin, only on a greater scale. See here he brings Reed Richards back form near death, in Fantastic Four #123 in moments. In fact, everyone on my team is capable of healing others, but Norrin has the greatest power and most instances doing so, this only further decreases the chances of damage you DO manage to inflict sticking.
And for the voters unaware, everyone on my team is at-least planetary in durability, further boosted by Hal and Nate's shields and armor. Norrin literally no-sells planet-destroying blasts(avengers annual #16) or planets exploding beneath his feet. Hal has tanked a point-blank blast from Cyborg Superman, a high-tier team-buster himself. Therefor, this
vastly more durable
Seems highly unlikely. What seems even more unlikely is that your durability would be enough to take attacks from my team.
I understand that Juggs is very impressive in terms of durability, and in the last I would say 10 or so appearances he has made in 2014-2018, IIRC he's only been BFR'ed rather than outright physically beaten, aside from when thor without mjolnir managed to beat him recently off-panel. Still though he doesn't have the feats to tank repeated attacks from someone like surfer alone, let alone people like nate and hal on top of that; hal in particular has many impressive energy feats such as blasting a hole through amazo in JLA vol 2 #23
This is one of many very impressive feats for Hal. So not only do you have to survive attacks from Surfer, but someone almost comparable to him in energy projection. I'm aware Jugg's power fluctuates a lot based upon however much Cytorrak likes him at the moment, but even at his best such as battling world war hulk evenly briefly or tanking a god-blast from thor, he wouldn't be able to stand up to this. Beyond the threat of outright power which can admittedly get boring to argue, my team still possesses the ability to beat you in other ways.
Beyond Nate threatening to attack you internally with TK, Surfer has used atomization before, notably in defenders vol 3 #2
Gallery
This wasn't a blood-lusted surfer or anything either, this was surfer being more pacifistic than usual, simply pushed too far. Speaking of internal attacks, Norrin has used them as-well such as in cosmic powers unlimited against jack of hearts
And for anyone curious, both Norrin and Hal are at-least lightspeed in terms of speed and reactions. Hal has kept up with the likes of superman, flash and zoom on occasion (that isn't to insinuate he's as fast as them, he's merely fought against and alongside people of that speed) and Norrin in Marvel Comics Presents #1 was able to free himself of energy draining chains in less than a nanosecond, light only moves a foot in a nanosecond and surfer moved more than that. But again, no one in this battle relies on their speed to win for the most part, but this shows why I am very skeptical of my opponents supposed speed advantage
vastly faster
based upon his time manipulation; especially because Daimon doesn't really use his speed to win fights either.
Conclusion
My team has more than enough power and versatility to take my opponent down, even with his clones and summons.
@emperorthanos-: if I'm past the deadline move Maalikis on. I'll likely still post my rebuttal anyway, just becasue I dont like to not finish what I start (I'llmake it a CAV instead). I'm ok if you want to move things along, with my son in hospital for the last week and a bit and having his 4th surgery for an ongoing issue Ive been strapped for time anyway, so nothing for the past few weeks has had the attention I'd normally give it
Log in to comment