2020 High Tier PYP 5th Anniversary Edition Rd1: Darthjhawk vs Shirso(Open For Votes)

Characters:

• Composite Ultron (No Final Form)- 7
• Negi Springfield- 6
• Composite Yhwach- 4

Perks:

• Character Fusion- 7
• 2 more character points- 5
• 3 hours of prep- 3

Characters:

• Aquaman (1)
• Vulcan (2)
• Manchester Black (3)
• Stardust (5)
• Ichibei (2)
• DMS Kakashi (3)
• Trafalgar Law (1)

Perks:

• 2 more character points (5)
• Fusion (7)
• 1 hr prep (1)
• 200 SHIELD Agents (1)
• Batman martial arts (1)

Once upon a time, in a studio apartment far far away, a magnificent beast was just finishing his last pizza of the day while watching Seinfeld reruns on loop when he was rudely interrupted by a clown in golden attire that looked like this. The great man understandably seethed in righteous anger.

"Who are you?" he booms in a tenor that shakes the heavens and makes the quarks stand still.

"We need your help, Dismantler, our multiverse has been invaded by a sentient AI with a mustache I would kill for"

"Get in line", the legendary titan says, "I am booked till the next Big Bang."

"Please Dismantler, only you can save us", now a desperate female voice joins the clown.

He turns around. She is ravishing, "Please.." she starts to plead again.

The one true savior pinches her pretty lips with his immaculate fingers, goes in close and whispers those oft quoted, cherished by Time itself, now legendary words:

And thus another lazy afternoon starts...

Sorry for that, your own writing skills inspired me to cook something up as well xD

Good pay, hot chick and an all expenses covered trip to another backwater multiverse. Can this get any better? What are my powers again though? the irrepressible Savant wonders in silent exasperation. I really do need to write them down.

Shirso is a composite of 7 characters, each bringing their own distinct flavor to his overall powerset:

1. "King of Atlantis" Arthur Curry: Aka Aquaman, founding JLA member, what he brings to the table is his gear, telepathic prowess, and magical resistances. Also talks to fish.
2. "Emperor" Vulcan: Aka Gabriel Summers, Omega level mutant and high tier energy manipulator.
3. "The Anarchist" Manchester Black: A powerful psionic with unmatched TP and TK prowess.
4. "Herald of Galactus" Stardust: The powerhouse. Insane stats and raw power, regeneration to make Deadpool jealous, and several other nifty abilities courtesy the Power Cosmic.
5. Kakakshi Hatake of the Sharingan: The brains. Also adds intangibility and ninjutsu versatility.
6. "Monk of Perception" Ichibei Hyosube: Hax, hax and more hax! Along with some much needed soul based offense and defense.
7. "Surgeon of Death" Trafalgar Law: Space manipulation, internal attacks.

Before delving into the fight itself, I want to establish some baselines, that I feel will be relevant throughout.

Kamui

Shirso has access to the Kamui dimension which allows him dimensional intangibility and teleportation. He can of course use this in combat like Kakashi used it to phase through Kaguya's attacks.

By the rules of the tourney, I can only stay in the Kamui at a stretch for 20 seconds, following which I need to be outside for 20 more seconds, rinse and repeat. However he doesn't always need to get his full body into the Kamui for a stretch, instead he can choose to selectively phase specific parts in response to particular attacks, as was actively abused by Obito in the series. In either case, 20 seconds of dimensional intangibility is still a pretty big deal considering Shirso's speed...

Speed

Shirso is solidly MFTL in all aspects of speed: reaction, travel, combat and processing. He has an added advantage in that a lot of his abilities are thought based, so all he needs is processing speed to thought activate his powers.

Anyway, solidly FTL combat and movement speed and the skill to use it is acquired from DMS Kakashi who straight up blitzed Kaguya, (I can elaborate on why this is FTL if required, not bothering with it now as I know you are yourself a Naruto expert). But Stardust's combat speed should be much much higher, as her race can perform complex tasks like creating a work of art in less than picoseconds (scan below).

His flight speed is FTL as well, due to Stardust's Power Cosmic.

Which means Shirso should have no problem selectively Kamui phasing through any attack from your team (as Kamui is thought activated) or beating you to the draw with his abilities.

Gear

Aquaman being one of my fusees means I get access to N52 Arthur's Trident of Poseidon, which packs some serious potency. Only 1 feat is really needed to establish this:

This is an insane feat for the Trident considering N52 Darkseid's durability and shows potency much much beyond standard planet busting levels, something that I can prove if need be.

However that's just with N52 Aquaman's level of raw physical strength. In the hands of someone with Stardust's level of physical strength (she has planet busted by bullrushing Asteroth, and can match Beta Ray Bill in raw strength), I feel confident in saying it would rip anything you throw at me to shreds.

Ichibei and Law also provides some added durability negating aspects to the raw power of my weapon, which I will touch upon as and when required.

Mentality

As already stated, Shirso has the intellect and tactical smarts of Kakashi, one of the most intelligent and strategic characters in the entire Naruto manga, a verse that's itself filled to the brim with tons of intelligent fighters. However, unlike the original Kakashi, Shirso has zero morals, having the personality of such upstanding gentlemen as Manchester Black or Vulcan.

Which means you are dealing with someone that not only won't hesitate to use their vast powerset in all sorts of nasty ways, but also has the smarts to know exactly which ability to use in what situation. Scary indeed.

Shirso sighs as he takes in his surroundings. This guy is good, he has transformed the entire planet into a veritable deathtrap. First things first, he needs to get out of here asap.

As the name implies, the first step is to get out of the warm welcoming gift you have prepared for me, the planet of death itself. This requires me to deal with several nasty surprises right off the bat, first and foremost the Virus itself:

( I did have some ideas for my 1 hr prep but given what you have planned, it seems largely irrelevant. All I will say is that Shirso starts in Kamui just before the fight begins, giving him some time to take stock of his surroundings and gauge what he is up against before the carnage commences in earnest).

The Virus is a sub-atomic pathogen that transmogrifies the targets body into an Ultron Drone. At the same time, it connects you to Ultron Hive Mind, a galaxy level in scale, potency, and population force that dominates and overrides your consciousness. This includes telepathy and empathy. It can be given via contact with any of Ultron's bodies, drones, or other hosts (which all of my team will be); or the above shown sub-atomic spores.

Once your team enters the battlefield they will be immediately exposed to the virus exposing them to Ultron's control, the process beginning instantly ravaging your mind & body until you become slaves to Ultron's will. And if you somehow manage to resist the reprogramming, which you can't get off easily without the Mind/Soul perk, you still have to deal with the actual virus ravaging your body from the inside tearing you apart and shredding you from within. (Uncanny Avengers Vol. 3 #11) This means once connected; the newest victims will be assaulted by a galaxy's worth of Ultron's consciousness as seen when it overwhelmed the likes of the Silver Surfer with ease. Meaning that even those created by Galactus' universal Power Cosmic aren't immune:

A very nasty strat no doubt, one that would drop a lot of teams right off the bat. Which is why you hire a professional Dismantler.

I'll ask though, why do you say the Virus is sub atomic ? I don't see that being stated anywhere in any of your scans.

Anyway, Shirso does have several lines of defense against the virus. First and foremost, Stardust being an Ethereal, is not only a non corporeal being, but his physiology itself is drastically different from anything else in the Marvel Universe:

Gallery

So you'd need feats for the virus affecting something with a bodily structure so fundamentally different from anything else they have encountered.

The second line of defense is the various passive defensive auras he can conjure, stemming mostly from Ichibei and Stardust.

Stardust can generate an energy aura around herself that was powerful enough to hurt Beta Ray Bill, make him scream out in pain and bring him to his knees:

Gallery

Which is highly impressive as Bill in this same series was no selling being in the epicenter of planet busting explosions or being at the core of stars.

Apart from that, Ichibei, like all Bleach characters, exerts a certain amount of physical pressure (Reiatsu) that fully covers their body, acting as their durability for every sort of attack. As for how potent Ichibei's own reiatsu defenses are? He should scale to base Yhwach in this regard (due to fighting him and holding his own, and even beating him if not for the Almighty) who was able to withstand and control the immense energy of Yammamoto's Bankai, We are tallking of energy reserves that could at least passively surface wipe a planet here.

Between Stardust's energy aura and Ichibei's reiatsu cloak, it's going to be hard for the virus to actually touch me.

One other possible defense is simply using Kakashi's Perfect Susanoo, which is a large, humanoid, energy construct. Susanoo should be capable of stopping even sub atomic spores as well, as Itachi's Susanoo blocked lightning, which is basically a discharge of electrons (sub atomic particles).

The Ultron Virus has also been shown to control even sentient energy-type beings with his virus as he was able to corrupt Nova, bypass his shields and overpower the Worldmind as seen in Nova Vol. 4

The Worldmind is a sentient supercomputer, whose data is entirely comprised of the experiences, histories, and personalities of deceased members of the Nova Corps as well as the general populace of Xandar. And yet Ultron was still able to overpower it and turn Nova against it. The resistance Nova and the Worldmind Nova showed would also be moot here considering that the current Ultron Virus is a massively upgraded version of the Phalanx Transmode Virus which alone allowed Ultron to conquer and convert the entire Kree Galaxy in a couple of days.

This seems like a technopathy feat basically. The Worldmind, as you said, is a highly advanced supercomputer, and the Virus hacked into it, which is basically what Ultron does.

And that's not to mention the physical toll of the virus as well. You saw the pain it was inflicting on the Surfer above, but the virus has also been able to overwhelm even those with insane healing factors like Deadpool's in Uncanny Avengers Vol.3 #11.

Stardust has a much crazier healing factor than Deadpool, as he can instantly reform from getting scattered by Storm's lightning:

And he neither needs nor can really be hurt physically:

To put this into perspective, unless you're capable of matching the output of Lifebringer Galactus consuming a planet, you will not be able to get rid of the Ultron Virus.

I don't think that's really a question of energy output, in fact Galactus is consuming the planet and its energies, not expending any energy there. It's more that just the act itself of consuming a planet reverted him back to his Devourer status. All we get from this is that planet busting energy is enough to obliterate all of Ultron's virus carrying missiles.

Now that you understand the virus, let's talk about how the battlefield will be changed. With the combined resources of the Phalanx and Post-Secret Wars, Ultron was shown to be able to corrupt a world within minutes. Overpowering a planetary supercomputer and the technology of the Titans (Thanos' race and technology with ease) Furthermore thanks to the powers of Negi and his linked minions, my fusion can simply summon his armies to him at a whim.

From there my army will build the Babel Spire, making it invisible and undetectable unless you have the technical expertise of the Vision. Then this will shunt the planet inside an impenetrable force field that at its full power phased an entire galaxy out of phase with the rest of the universe.

This means no in or out. Preventing entry from the combined power of every armada the universe's major races. This includes The Badoon's continuum ram that true to its namesake disrupts the space-time continuum and structure of whatever it strikes. Even this failed. This because according to the Xandarian Worldmind, the field is Actinic, and adapts to any form of energy attempting to interact or harm it as shown when Nova tried to open a Stargate or an Einstein-Rossen Bridge to escape. The effect/energy rebounding back on him and nearly killing him. Meaning that for your team, as soon as they spawn on the battlefield prep or not, they will be assaulted by the virus and Ultron's army along with one final piece I will mention at the end. And the virus will infect them from the future thanks to the power of the Almighty.

The obvious solution here is to simply destroy the Babel Spire itself. Which shouldn't be too hard as it was blown up by a giant Groot setting himself on fire in the actual storyline, a level of output that every single of my characters dwarf hilariously. You also planned to make the Spire undetectable, but that shouldn't be a problem between Stardust's Cosmic Awareness, or Vulcan who can sense the faint energy trace of spaceship power cells through vast reaches of space.

Once the Spire is destroyed, it will shut down the impenetrable force field surrounding the planet, meaning Shirso can get the hell off it finally, leading to the next step...

"Ah here we go again, will these fools never learn?", wonders the Dismantler, as he starts hearing the voices in his head.

This step deals with the second aspect of your offense, Negi and his Phantasmagoria.

First I want to establish Negi, who will begin pulling your team into his and Ialda's Phantasmagoria: which is the backup assuming you can counter the Ultron Virus.

Phantasmagoria is an ability gained from Negi's possession by the Mage of Beginning, Ialda Baoth. In simplest terms, as explained by Evangeline; it is a powerful illusory dream world where the user is a dominant force and can assault the minds of those inside the world:

First of all, why do you think it'd be easy, or even possible for Negi to draw Shirso into Phantasmagoria? Has he ever forcibly drawn an actual telepath into this illusory, psychological dream world?

This is of course, the perfect opportunity to establish Shirso's telepathic prowess:

My main psionic powerhouse, Manchester Black has repeatedly proved himself to be a superior telepath to Martian Manhunter, which speaks for itself. Like when he switched Bizarro and Superman's minds and prevented MMH from reversing the process by setting a psionic backlash in place.

• Scan 1
• Scan 2
• Scan 3

Or when he protected Lex Luthor from MMH's mental probes.

As for Vulcan, Emma Frost trying to track him with Cerebro set off a backlash that fried her mind, another feat that speaks for itself.

Even pre 52 Aquaman has shown planetary effects as a side effect of his TP.

Conversely, Aquaman has access to his Water Hand powers here, meaning he can telepathically draw your consciousness into the Secret Sea, a dimension where a sorcerer's will is powerless.

This completely shuts Negi down and can honestly win the fight on the spot, as your entire fusion is technically a mage with Negi in the mix, so they would be powerless in the Secret Sea.

Kamui is also a decent defense against Negi's mind tricks, unless you can prove that Negi can affect people in different dimensions.

Attacking your mind is the first major aspect of this ability, but this also gives Negi with the ability to control and use illusions (which is not telepathy but an assault on the senses) on a massive scale. Massive being literal, as the Phantasmagoria stretches at least from Earth to Mars:

I have ample extra sensory abilities to counter this, between Cosmic Awareness, Black's telepathic sensing, Vulcan's energy sensing, Ichibei's spiritual sensing, and the Sharingan giving natural protection against sensory based illusions like Genjutsu.

Finally, during prep, my fusion will be spreading and merging with the planet spiritually, accelerated by Ultron and Yhwach both being a part of my fusion. This allows me a form of Pseudo-Omnipresence, allowing me to negate any sort of speed advantage or even duplication as I can appear anywhere on the planet at any time.

Easily countered by the anti magic properties of the Water Hand. Aquaman can cancel out enchantments by touching them with his Water Hand, like he reversed Neron's enchantment on Black Manta here:

Again, cancelling out Neron's enchantment speaks for itself. For those unaware, Neron is DC's equivalent of the Devil, and one of DC's most powerful Hell Lords and magic users, status wise, on par with someone like Mephisto from Marvel.

So all Shirso needs to do is touch the planet with his Water Hand to boot your consciousness out.

I am getting bored now, let's take care of this cosmic abomination, and retire to a nice hot meal at the edge of the multiverse...

And finally, I need to address how Shirso will actually put Juha Negitron down. Again, a systematic dismantling works best here.

So once Shirso leaves the starting planet, it shouldn't take long for him to realize a nearby moon to be the one that your character is on, given his potent sensing abilities. Once he gets there, the final showdown can start.

As far as Yhwach and the Almighty is concerned, I don't think most of the Almighty's abilities are really relevant here, save the power immunity and resurrection aspect, which can be annoying.

1. Attacking from the future: The Virus argument has been addressed, physical attacks won't really do anything meaningful to Shirso given he has Stardust's physiology.
2. Omni-precognition: Sure I guess. Doesn't really change matters much when there's not a single future where Juhatron can feasibly win this.

But the other 2 aspects can admittedly be annoying, so I think a combined telepathic + energy draining approach will do the trick here.

One thing to note is that the Almighty actually needs to "see" an ability in action in the future to work on it. Abilities that don't have a visual cue seems like a solid way to bypass the Almighty, as Aizen's KS so memorably showed us. And of course, it's not a defense against sheer, raw power, as Ichigo was able to deal grievous damage to him even with the Almighty activated.

Anyway, Vulcan should be able to easily and quickly drain all the reishi from Juhatron, (an offense which should have no visual cue) which would shut down the Almighty. I won't beat around the bush, and just present his best feat, Vulcan absolutely dominated GotG era Adam Warlock, instantly draining so much energy that he had no choice but to retreat and even the Magus admits that he is an inferior energy manipulator compared to Vulcan.

I don't think I need to elaborate on Warlock's or Magus' feats to you of all people to explain why this is so impressive for Vulcan. But I think we can both agree that Warlock/Magus operates on a scale way beyond anything in Bleach.

If that doesn't work for some reason, he can control the energy itself inside your fusion to put them down (something the Almighty definitely won't "see"), as he does here to Shiar Imperial Guards:

Gallery

And he of course always has the option of just blasting Juhatron with raw power, something that Stardust excels in. She was able to destroy the last Ethereals with her energy blasts, and reduce them to "cosmic ash", a phrase that in this context means they were reduced to their component, sub atomic particles, like quarks:

Point to note is that the Ethereals are so durable and resilient, that they have made an entire civilization in the heart of a sun itself.

Being reduced to sub atomic particles and then getting absorbed into Stardust herself is not a state the Almighty has feats to suggest it can come back from, so this should put Juhatron down for the count.

The power feats fo Ultron don't really matter as conventionally blasting or physically ripping apart Shirso's body won't do anything meaningful, then there's Kamui on top. But I'll still address a few points I found problematic:

consider that as Adam stated, a singular rocket would destroy a planet,

I don't think he is talking in the sense of conventional planet busting here tbh. Those missiles were all loaded with the Ultron virus each of which can take over entire civilizations, which is what he is most likely referring to. Those missiles being planet busting in the conventional sense don't even make sense in the context of the story and Ultron's plan, as his plan was to spread the Virus throughout the universe via his missiles, and enslave all life:

Busting planets, and hence killing everyone on it, seems to be the exact opposite of what Ultron was planning throughout Infinity Countdown.

Shattering his shields and dealing with his blasts, despite this same powers in flux Warlock being able to create shields that could deal with a point-blank supernova.

Are you sure that Warlock actually tanked the full brunt of the supernova there and didn't just teleport out, at least partially mitigating the energy he'd need to actually shield from? In any case, this doesn't say anything about Warlock's damage output at this stage.

And Ultron couldn't be put down from a supernova scattering his atoms across light years, reforming in no time.

Well your own scan says only his molecules, not his atoms, was scattered. Anyway Ultron doesn't actually reform himself here, he merely downloads his consciousness into a new body, which is an important difference. As it means Shirso can incap you by just destroying all his spare bodies (if any) and leaving Juhatron with no body to hop his consciousness into.

Anyway I will stop here for now, though I do have several other potential methods to put Juhatron down, which I might reveal next post. For now the plan is:

• Drain all your reishi, shutting the Almighty down.
• Use the energy inside Juhatron's own body to drop him.
• Destroy his body and reduce it to a sub atomic level, leaving Juhatron without an alternate body to hop his consciousness into, essentially an incap.
• All while maintaining a constant telepathic assault, a department where you are very vulnerable now due to Negi getting shut down.

D

Kamui stuff

Kakashi and Obito never start fights beforehand intangible. It is always a reactionary usage. This is because users of Kamui can only stay intangible for five minutes at a time. Furthermore given that you have Kakashi with Obito's chakra and not Obito himself spamming Kamui in such a way exerts a massive drain on your reserves due to not being an Uchiha. While you can argue DMS circumvents this problem you still run into the issue of using it before the battle begins. Neither character abused these tactics, let alone used.

I am aware of all that, but there's no reason for my character to not start in Kamui when he has no idea what he's up against. It's not some genius tactic but something any reasonably intelligent character with Kamui would do.

Konan, the character in my first scan previously abused similar counter-tactics to my own in this debate, she heavily damaged Obito. To the point where he had to use a reality-warping genjutsu to survive it. Something you have no access to with Kakashi.

Which I am well aware of, Kamui's role was never to be a permanent get out of jail free card, but merely to buy the Dismantler a few seconds to gauge what he's up against in the initial stages of the fight.

Finally given you only have 20 seconds, your time and selective usage become even more difficult and you can't phase your entire body lest you self BFR. And the virus won't is so merciful as to allow you just phase certain parts to evade it. It's covering the entire planet at a minimum.

I am allowed to phase my entire body for 20 seconds at a time, and then spend 20 seconds out, if I am not wrong, a rule I don't intend to break.

Beating the virus

The silver surfer has been able to control his bodily structure on an atomic and subatomic level for decades as well as manipulate other matter on the same level. Yet as you saw could do nothing about the virus affecting his bodily makeup. So you tell me what level it operates on. I think it is quite clear.

True, but the Surfer has shown a ton of obscure powers over his publication which he rarely uses correctly in the right situations. Anyway, there are levels to this, and as far as sub atomic manipulation and bodily control is concerned, Stardust has actually shown better prowess, taking things a step further and controlling the 4 fundamental forces of nature to regenerate herself from sub atomic particles in the span of a page:

Gallery

Notice this is not a superpower she got from the Power Cosmic, it's an inherent ability her race uses routinely, so even if you can pull up feats of Norrin precisely controlling the 4 fundamental forces at once to reconstitute himself like this, I'd argue Stardust is better at it due to simply having more practice.

This incidentally shows how good her regeneration is as well, regenerating from sub atomic particles in the space of a page, after she had been blown apart by Annihilus/Thanos controlled Galactus' blast.

As for your other argument, Ultron has means to counteract non-corporeal beings with his regular attacks due to his common opponent in his son the Vision.

Vision's intangibility is density based so not quite the same as Stardust, whose is more like being an energy being.

Furthermore, I have Yhwach a Bleach character who naturally attacks the incorporeal and souls as you well know, seeing as you also took a Bleach character in Ichibei as well as have even borrowed my arguments and openers yourself where I display such abilities:

So any arguments relating to Ichibei or even incorporeal beings are null and void. That includes your reiatsu argument from Ichibei later. I'm not sure why you would even try that when I have the character who casually negated his powers, oneshot, and then killed him all before the two massive amps he got later in the series in Yhwach.

Yeah of course, Ichibei's defenses are irrelevant to your fusion, but the point is, I didn't bring up Ichibei's reiatsu defenses in the context of a direct fight against your fusion, I argued them as a passive defensive layer to get past for the virus and virus only. Yhwach/your fusion would easily blow past Ichibei's reiatsu defenses, but how can you say the same for the virus? Is every single virus spore also as powerful as Yhwach/your fusion now?

Furthermore, Ultron's Virus hasn't yet failed to conquer any race it has encountered. Starting from humans, and breaching into Kree, Skrull, Asgardians, Eternals (think Thanos's race), and down to beings remade by the universal power cosmic, a race that is unnatural to this universe, considering that Galactus came from the previous universe. (As seen with Silver Surfer) It has feats against every race in comes into contact. Because the Phalanx and Ultron designed to adapt and conquer each new race it comes into contact with. If it weren't able to do that there would be the reason for its continued success and threat level portrayed in Marvel for decades. From Chris Claremont's X-men to 2020.

This would be a valid point in most cases but the Non Corporeals aren't just any other alien race, as I clearly showed, they are different at a sub atomic level from every other being in the Marvel universe, including people like Galactus or other energy beings, and every single of those alien races you mentioned.

Also it's not true that the Phalanx have alwayseffortlessly taken over every race it has ever come in contact with, in one of it's first appearances, they couldn't affect mutants due to them being different from humans. Now I am aware the version that Ultron used is greatly upgraded and infected a variety of alien races and the Phalanx itself has manged to infect mutants in other appearances, however it does show that having a different physiology can act as a counter to Phalanx assimilation. And the difference between Stardust's race and anything else in the MU is a lot, lot more compared to the difference between mutants and normal humans.

So trying to argue oh Stardust is an alien race so prove it will work is a weak argument, especially since you have no actual resistance feats to post. Given that you went with this argument as your first thought. Additionally you aren't just stardust anymore remember? You're not just made up of him, but several other people, a majority of which are humans. The very first race Ultron learned how to turn.

I thought I could choose whose body I wanted to have, and I don't know how an amalgam body would work here, like how would you have a composite body of Stardust and some humans?

Where do you see a defensive energy aura anywhere in these scans? or even any mention of them? This is a discharge of energy akin to a blast coming from his hand, not some passive defensive aura:

Heh? There's a clear white aura covering Stardust's body there which is damaging Bill. Her actual energy projection attacks always have a dark yellow color.

And just to be clear, this white aura isn't restricted to just coming out of his hands either, she can cover her entire body with it as shown in the very next page.

Besides, she can release omnidirectional energy bursts anyway.

Point to note here is that the High Evolutionary was able to protect himself from the Phalanx by simply having his base in the heart of a star, in other words the virus can't withstand heat or energy at those levels. And Stardust's energy aura and AoE blasts can easily hurt BRB and bring him to his knees in moments, who practically ignores being at the heart of a star. Do the math.

I'll echo your argument here, I don't see that being stated anywhere in your scans. Besides you don't think someone like the Surfer who is the basis for how all writers portray the versatility and powers of the heralds wouldn't have a similar defense? I think you get my point here.

Not stated, but visibly shown. And that's a lazy argument, sure Surfer maybe an overall more powerful and versatile character but that doesn't mean all Heralds share or use the exact same powerset in every situation.

I won't even mention Ichibei again as you should already know that Yhwach with the soul king, the most powerful entity in Bleach far surpasses Ichibei's power. Especially when Base Yhwach was already his equal, and his outright superior with the Almighty.

I will repeat what I said before:

Yhwach/your fusion would easily blow past Ichibei's reiatsu defenses, but how can you say the same for the virus? Is every single virus spore also as powerful as Yhwach/your fusion now?

This is also incorrect. The Nova Worldmind exists as the Nova Force simultaneously as a sentient energy form as shown in the same volume where it is clearly shown to move and exist as energy. So I'm not sure where you're going with this argument, all you're doing is proving to me that you are defenseless in all respects.

Ok I'll take your word for that, but to be fair, all the instances you have shown, be it this one or the one with Richard Rider, the Phalanx is infecting a human (or organic) host that happens to have the Nova force, which is very different from infecting just a sentient form of raw energy. And that makes sense since the Phalanx has after all always been a techno organic virus that transforms its victims into techno organic beings, while a sentient energy form,let alone someone like Stardust is a far, far cry from either organic or tech based.

There's one more defense Stardust has against the virus, namely flooding every particle of her body with energy (whose power we have already seen) to purge the virus out.

This is also not applicable as Warlock and Phylla-Vell Quasar possess both those abilities, yet could not trace nor detect Ultron's Phalanx when he didn't want them too. I don't see how your people will. Let alone while fighting both my fusion, the Super Adaptoid, and trying to fight off the enhanced Ultron virus which you've only proven defenseless to.

Which of them has the Cosmic Awareness, or energy sensory feats like Vulcan who detected faint traces of space ship power cells (the Babel Spire would obviously have a far higher energy signature)? Stardust's senses are keen enough to even pinpoint energy traces across space when being actively suppressed by a cosmic entity (Epoch).

There's Ichibei spiritual sensing as well, which would work here as the Spire houses the souls of all the Phalanx's victims as well.

In summary, these are the defenses Shirso has against the virus:

• Stardust's physiology
• His regen which is easily better than any of the Phalanx's victims in canon
• Fundamental force manipulation and routine sub atomic body control
• Passive defenses like energy aura or reiatsu
• Even if by some miracle the virus does infect him, he can always flood his body with energy to purge them
• This combined with a lack of feats from your end of the virus actually infecting a raw energy form that's not bound to an organic or technological host.

Mind tricks

She does it every time she takes over a mind as I showed you in my opener. And mages being telepaths on the side is something that was established as early as Chapter One of Negima the prequel series of this franchise. While the feats of course came later, such an establishment is notable as it shows this isn't some one-off or even throwaway ability. But one held in basis and foreshadowed throughout the series.

Yeah but taking over the mind of someone like Black is a very different thing altogether, especially when further buffed by the defenses of people like Vulcan and Arthur.

I'll address the main mental argument all at once here. As far as Manchester Black I already Negi's telepathy/empathy operating on solar system level scale and potency. Amped by the Ultron Virus mental prowess which operates even higher on a galaxy level scale/potency. So planetary telepathy even as a side effect is rather worthless to me in terms of this discussion.

The Ultron virus comes into play only if I am actually infected by it, which I won't be for the various reasons already discussed, so it's Negi who is carrying your mental department for the most part. Speaking of the Ultron virus, I should also mention that I doubt galaxy level potent TP is really its consistent level, as Ultron's mind probes on Starlord in Annihilation Conquest were blocked by Mantis, followed by Ultron getting counter hacked by Mantis' TP:

Gallery

And Mantis is certainly not a galaxy level telepath.

As for Phantasmagoria itself, I still believe Arthur is a hard counter, but before elaborating on him, I should just mention that MMH (who as shown, Black scales consistently above) does have feats like tapping into the emotions of every sentient being across the galaxy: (JLA: Heaven's Ladder).

As for Aquaman you never actually showed him using this in combat, but rather him just showing it to an ally. Something he has to put intense focus on to even enter. Let alone pull someone in. The scan you showed was explicitly outside of combat in a rested, relaxed state.

He needs to focus his TP yes, but it's not as if the process is extremely taxing or time consuming for him or anything. Nor does it require any prior prep or him to be in a rested, relaxed state. He did it in one panel pretty casually after all. And would be even easier with a telepath of Black's caliber in the fusion. While it was technically out of combat, I don't see how the application would be any different in a combat situation. All he needs to do is use his TP to draw Negi's consciousness into the Secret Sea, an application he has shown he can do easily in one panel.

At worst it would only shut down Negi's magical prowess nothing to do with Yhwach of Ultron. So I don't see the point.

Duh. That's all I am going for anyway. With the Secret Sea in the mix, Negi and Phantasmagoria is irrelevant, which means you are in a quite precarious position in the mental department.

Now's a good time to mention that Aquaman recently got some neat magical resistance feats in Rebirth during the Throne of Atlantis arc, further making Negi irrelevant.

He was able to resist the sorcery of Corum Rath's mages, who had harnessed the power of Atlantis' Silent School:

Which is impressive because these sorcerers were powerful enough to erect and maintain the Crown of Thorns, a magical barrier covering all of Atlantis (which is easily continent sized) that was so durable that it was stated not even Superman can break through with raw power.

So these sorcerers were clearly very potent and Arthur was kinda no selling their combined, focused magic.

Negi himself might not be able to, but Yhwach himself can, as you well know he can affect three separate dimensions at once with his soul king powers:

And given my powers are fused, there's no reason my character's mental powers can't cross dimensions as well. So Kamui cannot and will not protect you. Especially given that to use this a defense you have to leave the dimension. Which would be self-bfr, not just phase.

No, you can't mix two separate powers, telepathy from Negi and inter dimensional affecting from Yhwach to create a hybrid power like inter dimensional telepathy that neither of them have shown.

According to the rules, I am allowed to phase my entire body for 20 seconds at a time, which is more than enough.

You haven't displayed any showings that operate on the level of any of my three fusion materials. Can you give the effort to do so? Just saying so doesn't;t mean anything to me. Simply having powers/abilities mean nothing without the proper application to back it up. Something you should know well by now.

Hopefully I provided feats for Vulcan's energy sensing and Stardust's CA this post. In either case, once I leave the planet, coming into conflict with your terraformed moon is only a matter of time, even if I can't sense them immediately. Your fusion (or the moon) will eventually try to attack me upfront, giving away their location.

As for your water hand argument, I don't see how it's relevant in the slightest. This isn't enchantment. This is a fusion. Not some simple spell. Unless you show a feat of the hand defusing something on this level, throwing a flowery description of Neron at me means nothing.

Ok, if the fusion with the planet is not magically induced then I stand corrected, I just assumed that to be the case since Negima is a magic based verse but I am not that knowledgeable on it so correct me if I am wrong.

Having said that, if it's indeed magic based, then I don't see why the Water Hand won't work the way I stated. In terms of power, Neron is way above your level,as his contracts have even managed to bind the Spectre.

He has also actually undone fusion of several creatures with the Water Hand and reversed Ocean Master's enchantment (who had switched Arthur's life with his own to create a whole alternate reality, where Arthur was the son of Atlan and Atlanna and left abandoned on a reef, as opposed to his actual origin story) so such an application isn't foreign to it at all.

Gallery

Dealing with the Super Adaptoid and putting your fusion down

the one present in this battle is the Super-Adaptoid who can copy all of your powers easily. As he's gone so far as to be capable of copying cosmic cubes,

This was classic Super Adaptoid, who could only copy Kubik because the Adaptoid itself had a sliver of the cosmic cube within it at the time (this is even straight up mentioned in your scan, ("My creators used a sliver of the cosmic cube itself to give me life...and that sliver has facilitated the adaptation process...). However at the end of this arc Kubik absorbs the sliver of the CC within Adaptoid, and he never has it after that, which means the Super Adaptoid that Ultron used is not at CC copying levels.

So just its showings against Phyla is no proof it can get to my fusion's level and moreover the Adaptoid is not as skilled and smart with the powers it copies as its original user, as was shown in the fight with Phyla itself, where she beat it because her imagination with the Quantum Bands was better than it. Regardless, at the end of the day, is there any reason why simply hacking it to pieces with Arthur's trident won't work?

So did his atoms just stay there while his molecules left? That line of argumentation from you makes no sense. Clearly his atoms were scattered too. And you seem to forget that the planet itself is ultron. He doesn't need spare bodies. His planet is the body.

??? Atoms are the building blocks of molecules, molecules are simply a cluster of atoms. Getting scattered at the atomic level means your molecules are getting broken down to its constituent atoms, something that didn't happen with Ultron. Anyway, this is a minor point, was just pointing out that your scans don't back what you say.

For the planet strat, ET said in the Reaverlation vs Shade match that transmuting the planet in any way sacrifices its indestructible property so the moon strat and terraforming at least doesn't save you here. I am still convinced the spiritual fusion thingy with the planet via Negi can be reversed through the Water Hand.

And I have one more trump card to take care of a lot of problems here, Stardust can create black holes nigh instantly. Her black hole was also powerful enough to drag in Asteroth, a being that was ragdolling planets with her TK only and flying through planets unimpeded, and also was overpowering BRB himself, who has overpowered mini singularities on his own. The Black Hole will accomplish several things:

• Take care of all the spores, nothing better than the equivalent of a cosmic vacuum cleaner for this.
• Destroy the terraformed moon, robbing Ultron of one of his "bodies".
• Take care of the Super Adaptoid, if it's still around.
• If the Water Hand's magic negation doesn't undo the spiritual fusion with the planet, then the black hole is going to be an eternal prison for you, as you can never overcome its pull.

Of course, the Dismantler can always escape into Kamui for 20 seconds, and fly at FTL speeds to a safe distance, so he will be safe. And even if he does get pulled in somehow, Stardust has already regenerated from getting ripped apart by his own Black Hole, then escaped from it, so it won't permanently put me down or trap me.

Lastly, I think a telepathic victory is still on the table, as even you agree the Water Hand would shut down Negi's prowess in this regard. The Phalanx Hivemind being galaxy lvl in potency is dubious considering Ultron's performance against Mantis, and if the Black Hole sucks in all the virus spores across the entire galaxy, then he won't even be left with a Hivemind to rely on, further weakening your TP defenses.

Furthermore my character exists as a raw consciousness so you have no way of actually putting him down, Especially that if worst comes to worst he can just possess you.

If your fusion has no bodies to jump into, then its essentially an incap, as the only thing it can do offensively then is Negi's possession, which won't work due to the Secret Sea, and my innate magical and TP resistances on top.

As for the energy draining argument,

I don't see why Bleach is necessary here when Negi's energy source is a virtually infinite supply of energy continuously supplied by the solar system and channeled into him. The character using it in this scan is using a crude, the copied version which he outright admits is inferior. So unless you can prove Vulcan's energy manipulation can drain at minimum solar system-level energy sources I don't see how he can try to even begin draining my own. Furthermore trying to internally manipulate my energy will backfire as it did when Wonder Man tried to do the same to Ultron

Yeah that's certainly impressive and I won't argue Vulcan can drain Negi's source of magical energy, but as far as I am aware, the various energy sources of your characters would get stacked additively. Yhwach or your fusion wouldn't suddenly have solar system level reirokyu, just because he is fused with Negi now, would he? And Vulcan doesn't need to drain all the energy from your fusion, just its reirokyu, which is what powers the Almighty.

Also c'mon now, Wonder Man isn't anywhere near Vulcan in energy manipulation.

Kamui

Both of the said characters that use Kamui are reasonably intelligent and do not abuse this tactic with it. This is something maybe you as a debater would do if you had the power, but it never been written this way, largely because of its limitations and drawbacks, something we simply cannot ignore in this context. Especially with an even harsher limit enforced by tourney rules.

The fact that you can't provide any solid evidence of this tactic and the fact that Konan's strategy with the paper bombs is similar to my own leans this element of the discussion in my favor. Entering a battle like this is simply not feasible for your character as it has never been feasible for the character you are pulling it from. This will not enough of a defense for your character to start the battle by evading the Virus. Especially since as I mentioned in my opener:

Well Kamui has been proactively used (and not just always a reactionary usage as you repeatedly state) like when Obito proactively uses it to phase through solid objects either to escape or gain an offensive advantage. Regardless, does it really matter if the Dismantler doesn't start in Kamui in prep? What's stopping him from going into it in the first picosecond the fight starts and getting a temporary reprieve?

Now I want to clear up a certain likely misconception there might be regarding the Almighty:

So no matter what, you will already be infected before you even begin to think to employ this tactic. As the timeline can simply be jumped to one where you were infected.

I am not sure if you mean "infected" in the sense of my character being just tagged by the virus or actually transmogrified and added to the Hive mind (which is your end goal). If it's the first I agree, Almighty makes it impossible for me to "dodge" or "block" the virus per se, nor am I arguing that. But I do disagree if you mean the second. The Almighty, as we both know, only allows you to jump between countless possible futures. That's what Yhwach's "changing" the future really entails. But what he cannot do, is reality warp a whole new future into place. He is limited by what's actually possible in the future.

So to argue that the Almighty will choose a future where the Dismantler gets transformed and added to the Phalanx Hive mind, it first needs to be proved that such a future is actually possible in the first place.

Which brings me to...

The Virus

Honestly a big chunk of your argument for why the virus can affect me is basically:

• Ultron infected Surfer
• Surfer has demonstrated some versatility and resistances in his career
• Hence the virus can automatically deal with everything I have to offer

Which is an extremely flawed argument to anyone who has a basic understanding of Norrin's character. I will actually cite your own argument regarding reactive vs proactive abilities here, Surfer doesn't have natural bodily defenses against a sub atomic pathogen, all his matter manipulation abilities as you displayed need to be consciously activated. Can you now irrefutably prove he used all these abilities to counter the virus and failed, something you are constantly assuming? Otherwise it doesn't really mean anything. And Surfer's history tells us that he rarely really uses all his esoteric abilities to their fullest potential in the right situations.

In any case, you didn't really counter my claim last post of Stardust having a better feat of subatomic control than Norrin, and also having more practice with the ability as it's something that's second nature to his race, so infecting Surfer isn't enough anyway. But to defend Stardust's feat...

What you failed to mention was the amount of time it took to complete this feat. First of all, Stardust was "destroyed" in issue 3 of Annihilation and did not return until Annihilation: Heralds of Galactus. Over a month in terms of publication. In-universe time the battle in which she was destroyed began in issue 2 which was Annihilation Day+ 212, with Stardust returning on A-Day+227:

A time-lapse of 15 days. While the feat is impressive, it doesn't strike me as all that relevant in this situation, since the virus is much more fast-acting. At best you can argue Stardust taking this much time to take control back. But then you'd have to show Stardust going against something controlling their bodily structure, makeup, and alteration. Something you have yet to do, along with more proof that it would just pass through Stardust's "incorporeal" nature which can somehow still be physically interacted with.

Time lapse is kinda irrelevant here when Stardust actually reconstituting herself from sub atoms in the span of a page is shown on panel. Your point would be valid if we just saw Stardust whole later after he took that blast, and there was merely a statement like "I reconstituted myself back from my sub atomic particles...", but we literally see her using the 4 Fundamental Forces in tandem to reconstitute herself from sub atoms, in the span of a page, and it didn't take 15 days.

Which is the grand scheme of things that doesn't matter as a counter as I showed you Ultron being able to interact with and control even energy-based beings. He is no stranger to it, as he can convert and control the inner workings of his body's atoms into ions and back again with a thought. Sub-atomic control is nothing to Ultron, as that was back in his 2nd shown iteration. So whether you're intangible, subatomic, or an energy being, it doesn't matter in terms of Ultron's own. This will not stop him or his virus.

Converting atoms into ions and back doesn't show sub atomic control, let alone on Stardust's level, who can control the very forces that hold the nucleus together.

That's the entire point of the fusion. Yhwach's reiatsu is mixed in with Ultron's energy, along with Negi's magical energy. Why are you acting as if they're entirely separate? The virus is apart of Ultron's being, energy, and consciousness. It was made from his being. And due to fusion, he is also Yhwach and also Negi.

Ok, saying every single virus spore is as powerful as your fusion is a pretty blatant highball. Every single member of the Phalanx race, like Ultron's sentries, and the the others he infected all fit this description of being "apart of Ultron's being, energy, and consciousness.", due to the Hivemind nature of the virus. Yet, that didn't stop random members of the Phalanx getting killed by even street levellers like Racoon.

Furthermore, show me Ichibei ever doing something like this. Show me reiatsu blocking subatomic particles or attacks. Because a stronger character's "aura" as you call it couldn't stop an attack that targets on a minuscule level with Aizen and Nanana's Underbelly. And before you try it, his ability only allows him to detect the holes and patterns. It doesn't make the pressure weaker or stronger. Ultron's virus is far superior and it has Yhwach's reiatsu stacked on to it.

Well there are characters in Bleach that use lightning (which constitutes sub atomic electrons) and other characters have tanked such attacks with their reiatsu. I don't see what that example is supposed to prove either, Nanao is specifically targeting the gaps/holes in Aizen's reiatsu (something that's entirely due to his restraints btw), or an area where Aizen is defenseless. Such gaps/holes don't ordinarily exist in the reiatsu aura of Bleach characters.

And you've yet to show them being able to counter any sort of attack like this, or control. Control is easy when you've never been tested or fought against. And I've shown you Ultron's virus adapting to and overcoming every race it has come across. No matter how different they are from the marvel universe. So you tell me which is more convincing, Ultron's feats, or you saying because I said they're different?

If anything this just shows how good the adaptation is. So I don't get the point of your arguments. Especially as the phalanx only had initial trouble with mutants and mutants alone before encountering Ultron. Other spacefaring races were fair game even before the massive upgrades they received. So this line of thought completely falls apart, and I don't even see why you brought it up.

I mean you are again overselling the virus' effectiveness against drastically different physiology a tad bit, the mutant example was just to show that a difference in physiology has historically been a decent counter against the Phalanx. And this holds true even as late as Annihilation Conquest actually (though not to the same extent), like how the Phalanx couldn't instantly control Blastaar due to his Negative Zone constitution:

And sure, I don't have any direct feats of Stardust or her race ever encountering something like this, but this goes both ways as neither do you have any feats of the Phalanx affecting something with as different a physiology, or as precise sub atomic control as them, while there's precedence for the virus historically struggling to affect very different physiologies alone.

This is tried and true fusion. Elements of all bodies incorporated into one. Not just one character with the power of all the others. That wouldn't make sense and would be like absorption. Not fusion. You can think of it like the Potara or Fusion Dance from Dragon Ball, which is the inspiration. which forms the fusees into one composite being. Not one body you get to pick and choose and just have the powers of all the others.

Eh I don't really know what to say to this, I just don't get how you can have an amalgam body of someone like Stardust and some humans. Guess I will settle for that whatever hybrid abomination is the result would still be very different at a sub atomic level from anything the Phalanx has ever encountered, so my basic point still stands.

Her energy projection is all yellow?

They weren't here, or here, or here, or here, or here, or here, or here. So I don't get where you're coming from.

Eh all right, I guess it's not always yellow lol, but this scan should speak for itself, as she clearly is covering herself with a white aura, that's not always present around her in general:

You are also wrong about the virus dying in a star. As Ultron, himself can shrink himself and his particles to the size of a neutrino in the sun, so they can quite clearly find ways to survive. And you keep comparing Ultron's upgrades to the regular phalanx. I ask you to stop as you know the difference.

Yeah Ultron himself can obviously survive in a sun (it'd be weird if he couldn't) but why do you keep extending all his feats to his spores as well when that's clearly not how it works? I don't see how I'm wrong when it was established by Warlock himself that the local sun was a safe haven and refuge from the virus in Conquest:

Gallery

I also don't see the need to do the math when I already showed that Ultron can off-screen stomp characters at least equivalent to Stardust and have stomped Bill even worse. So you can do that math yourself.

Stop this flawed reasoning. Bill is physically as strong, and has similar raw power to Stardust, but he isn't a non-corporeal energy being, or can use passive defensive energy auras or has sub atomic control and force manipulation. They are 2 very different characters with very different power sets, and Ultron stomping or infecting Bill has nothing to do with whether he can infect Stardust.

The Nova Force and Richard are one being, fused. Not unlike your character fusion is here, so it wouldn't matter either way.

Nova force is a sentient energy being inside a human host, while my character would be totally an energy being, or at least very different from either an organic or tech based body.

And your showing isn't a combat or defensive showing. It's just a description of speed in motion. I don't see how it applies at all.

"Such unimaginable energy,...rushing through every particle of my body", how does that leave any room for doubt? It's not just a metaphorical description of high speed, if that's what your were implying, she is flooding her body with insane levels of energy that accelerates her to high speeds. Further emphasized when she says it's something "ordinary beings know nothing of", implying this isn't what'd be happening with any random speedy character.

At this point, you're just desperately throwing stuff at the wall and hoping it sticks. Unfortunately, nothing has yet.

Lol ok, I'll gladly take that jibe, but it goes both ways tho.

Warlock covers both of those. Cosmically he can sense the correct portal to take to his universe amongst an infinite number of possibilities, outcomes, and locations. And in the very scan, you posted that's warlock sensing the souls from just the large planet Hala. He can sense souls from across a galaxy as well as Thanos' role in the universe despite everything else going on. Both better feats than ichibei or Vulcan and yet when Ultron didn't want to be found he went undetected.

Great feats, but I'd point out that the Warlock in Conquest had just been reincarnated and not fully accustomed to his powers at that stage.

I'd also raise the same point about character you did for me. Ultron never bothered to cloak the Babel sphire in the event, why would he suddenly do so now in a random encounter?

All of these arguments only come into play by you knowing the virus is in play and can somehow stop yourself from being infected beforehand anyway by the almighty. All of your abilities shown this far are reactive and not proactive like you the debater are arguing them to be.

Yes, but my character has a much faster processing speed than Ultron or his spores, since the best you argued was slightly FTL, while I casually operate in pico seconds. And since most of my abilities are thought activated, I'd beat you to the draw when it comes to using my powers.

Overall, my stance hasn't changed much in this aspect:

1. I have a very different physiology from anything the Phalanx has encountered, something that has historically been proven to be an effective counter to it, even during modern times, as shown with Blastaar.
2. I have sub atomic force manipulation and control, and more importantly, it's something that's routine and second nature for me. And I think we can both agree that using the 4 forces in tandem to reconstitute yourself from sub atoms in the span of a page is a better feat than merely shrinking yourself to a sub atomic level like Surfer. So my character both has the better feat, as well as the better mentality and skill when it comes to sub atomic control.
3. Passive defenses likes energy aura, reiatsu or AoE blasts should prove to be another effective hindrance.
4. Ditto for flooding his body with high levels of energy.
5. Kamui can still be used as a safe refuge from the virus, at least temporarily.
6. Even if these abilities are reactive, I would beat you to the draw anyway with my much superior processing speed.

One last thing, as that was a recurring theme, you said at some points that the current virus is upgraded from AC, which I am aware of, but you didn't really show any feats to suggest exactly in what ways and how it has improved since then, so I can't really offer more.

Negi and mind tricks

Not really, when it could casually control a telepath on the caliber of Xemnu who was in his very first appearance a planetary telepath and could overwhelm others of this caliber like Moondragon. So we have Ultron stacked on top of Negi, both of who are already above the likes of your characters. So your defense doesn't amount to much.

Cool but my characters' TP and mental resistances are above planetary as well.

You somehow conveniently keep forgetting that the Ultron virus is an upgraded version of the techno-organic virus shown in AC and this version of the phalanx. Besides Ultron's Enchephalo-Ray (the instance you're trying to use) isn't telepathy but rather an advanced form of hypnosis more akin to genjutsu rather than true telepathy. So this argument doesn't work.

I mean it is functionally close enough to TP, and don't see the Genjutsu analogy as that manipulates the senses, Encephalo ray does nothing of the sort, it's a direct assault on the mind. This doesn't excuse the other side of this showing either, namely Mantis being able to hack into Ultron's mind and extract information regarding the Phalanx. That wouldn't have happened if Ultron really had galaxy lvl TP consistently as you claim.

This is J'onn's only feat on this level and a pretty big outlier. So I'm not sure why you're scaling above this when its pure empathy at that. Not telepathy. That makes no sense to me.

Well you also went out of your way to classify Phantasmagoria as an Empathy assault in your opener, "It also channels the pain and torment of every living being in the Milky Way, and to top it all of, Resonance deals out infinite empathy:",so it's applicable.

This is a combat situation and the fact that you admit that its never something used in a combat situation or anything like it tells me that you're still looking for things to stick. I don't see why this would be used at all.

This feels a bit pedantic. Yes he never got the opportunity to use this specific application in a combat scenario during the run, but is there any good reason why someone who could casually do it in one panel with a slight focusing of his TP can't do it in combat, especially with a much more powerful telepath and looser morals in the fusion?

Drawing Negi's consciousness would force you into full assault from him and Ultron, something you haven't proved you could do.

Did you forget that Negi's will is shut down in the Secret Sea, making Phatasmagoria useless, because as you said, it's essentially a battle of willpower with Negi. I ain't even necessarily pushing this as an offensive option, but defensively, it seems like a impenetrable safeguard against Phatasmagoria, as Arthur doesn't need to engage Negi on his own terms. The Secret Sea is a dimension that's connected to the universal consciousness anyway, and Arthur can open portals between it and other dimensions as well, hence he can escape from Negi's mental realm into the Secret Sea, completely bypassing Phantasmagoria quite easily.

I don't see how I'm in any bad position, considering you failed to prove anything that would lead to that. Also, the crown of Thorns is a different application of magic than the random blasts of these magicians. Mera herself said they had to unleash the oldest of the magics in the silent school to do this. Implying that its not some magic that they can simply use. This is some pretty rough arbitrary scaling you're doing that doesn't even really make sense, as there's nothing there supporting that they used the same level or even type of magic to attack Aquaman. Furthermore, Negi is more powerful and scales above magic users who at 0.1% of their power generate enough continuous magical energy to rotate the earth for an entire year. It isn't hard to tell who is more impressive to me.

Well the magics of the Silent School was a permanent amp that Rath's sorcerers had during that run, it wouldn't vanish when they are fighting Arthur. Negi's power is certainly impressive, but my point is Arthur already has a high innate magical resistance, so even if he can't necessarily no sell Negi's magic, it wouldn't be as effective on him as it'd be on some other character with zero magic resistance.

I don't see why not, especially when you're stacking and mixing powers yourself, even ones that aren't used in-character or combat situations. Sounds to me like you're picking and choosing what works and what doesn't. But I'm not creating a new ability both have. I'm simply exploiting the abilities of a fusion.

I'll leave this to the voters tbh.

Nope, it's a spiritual fusion. The battlefield her merges with becomes his body:

Ok? Is it based on magic or not? You didn't give me enough to work with in that regard, so I'll just maintain my previous stance. If the fusion is a spiritual ability based on magic, then I don't see any reason for the Water Hand's anti magic properties to not dispel it. It has both the potency (dispelling Neron's magic) and scale (dispelling Ocean Master's alternate reality) feats for that.

The Adaptoid

I never said it was at those levels. But Et allowed me a non-amped (meaning the omnipotent version) composite of the Super-Adaptoid so all of its other feats apply:

Did you just say you were allowed an omnipotent version of the SA? Sorry you are disqualified xD.

Anyway, wow lol, I think I am entitled to complain a bit about you getting a Cosmic Cube copier as a summon, though now the problem becomes, well, that version of the SA was obviously a lot more powerful than the modern version that Ultron controlled and used. How can you say for certain that classic Super Adaptoid, with a sliver of the Cosmic Cube inside it, would be as easily controlled as the weaker modern version we saw during AC? Points to ponder.

And sure you can argue imagination as long as you can do that while fighting it, the drones, the planet, and my fusion at the same time. Regardless it copies all the abilities and powers of your characters so just Aquaman wouldn't be nearly enough to put it down. And I think you know that.

Problem is besides the virus and the mental tricks, you can't really put me down in any conventional manner. And you just need the proper resistances for the first two, which I have showed and argued to my best in these 3 posts, but the point being numbers and raw power aren't really relevant here or would overwhelm me in the long run. As blasting or hacking me to pieces won't do anything, you need to make either the virus or Phantasmagoria work.

Putting you down

That's fine if it loses its initial durability because it gains a new one with Negi-Ialda merging with it, not to mention the other two.

Doesn't matter, there's nothing suggesting either Ultron, let alone the other 2, has the durability to resist getting shredded by a massive black hole, without the indestructible moon stipulation. The terraformed moon is toast the moment Stardust makes the blackhole.

Opening a black hole will only serve to damage your character when you're trapped inside a barrier a wormhole couldn't breakthrough,

Please don't tell me you are comparing Nova's Einstein-Rossen bridge to Stardust's blackhole lol. Not only are they completely different things anyway but you haven't provided any feats for said "wormhole". Because Stardust's blackhole overpowered Asteroth as shown, who is physically above already planetary characters like Bill and Stardust and ragdolls planets through casual TK alone.

And yes it can damage the Dismantler as well, difference being I can take and escape it by feats, while your entire armada can neither escape not prevent themselves getting shredded by one, including the Adaptoid, or your spores, or any fusion bodies.

That's if I don't keep myself safe from it's gravity using Kamui anyway.

furthermore this was only ever used as a BFR tactic after exhausting all other options as Stardust says she didn't want to do it. So I don't see why you're character would have the time to, or even do it before getting assaulted and taken down by my team.

Well duh. I never argued my character starting with it off the bat, but he will soon realize the need for it when more conventional measures don;t work, as it did with Asteroth. Furthermore, it's not simply Stardust, but there's Kakashi's intelligence in the mix as well, and he'd certainly think of a tactic like this when he understands his own powerset well. The only thing required is that the Dismantler survives long enough to resort to it, which well, he does.

One point I raised last post that you seem to have ignored is draining. Here's what I said:

Yeah that's certainly impressive and I won't argue Vulcan can drain Negi's source of magical energy, but as far as I am aware, the various energy sources of your characters would get stacked additively. Yhwach or your fusion wouldn't suddenly have solar system level reirokyu, just because he is fused with Negi now, would he? And Vulcan doesn't need to drain all the energy from your fusion, just its reirokyu, which is what powers the Almighty.

You didn't present any counter for Vulcan simply draining the reirokyu or spiritual energy from your fusion, to shut down the Almighty. And no Almighty means Ichibei is back on the table, who can just depower your characters, drones, etc with Ichimonji's ink. A hax you can't really counter without the Almighty.

I won't repeat the points pertaining to the Virus and Phantasmagoria, the only 2 ways Juhatron can really put me down. I will summarize my own win conditions though:

Plan 1: Nuke everything in sight

This is the Black Hole strat, something Dismantler will resort to sooner rather than later, once he realizes how annoying your fusion is to put down. In short a Black Hole on the level that Stardust can create would suck in everything in sight and rip it to shreds, destroying your terraformed planets/moons, drones, spores, or the Adaptoid. Luckily I have the feats to escape and regenerate from a Black Hole, while you don't. And I can further keep myself safe using Kamui.

Plan 2: Draining + Hax

Vulcan can drain just the reirokyu from your fusion (which isn't Solar System level or comes from the same source as Negi's reserves) and shut down the Almighty, leading to the Coup de Grace from Ichibei.

Plan 3: Telepathy

Water Hand to neg Negi coupled with galaxy lvl TP being really inconsistent for Ultron, though I'd say this route is the least likely.

Anyway that should be it, thanks again for the great debate, see ya next time.

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