This is a little deviation from both a regular CaV and a tourney match so I'll give some background to the unaccustomed. After a 3 stage voting process, 10 users were selected to become All Stars. 2 of those 10 were team Captains and they each chose 4 people to be on their team. The All Star debate will consist of 3 separate 1v1 CaV matches, and whatever team takes home 2/3 will be crowned the victor.
And now, the moment you've all been waiting for:
Rules
Standard versions
Drake is limited to guns 1-4
In character
Fight to K.O/incap/death
Start 100m apart and visible
Basic knowledge, random encounter
Standard Gear
Everyone at full power and fighting to the best of their abilities
Location
Voters:
Please refrain from posting your opinion on the match until it's done.
Ask to be tagged if you wished to be tagged for voting.
Don't vote on who you think is more powerful, but on who had the better arguments.
When giving your vote, give an explanation on why you think the person won
Drake Sinclair, is by trade, a treasure hunter with a mysterious past. He is from a series known as 'The Sixth Gun' which follows the stories of several mysterious revolvers with mystical properties. It is learned throughout the series that Drake has a strong connection to these weapons and that many of his past lives have been spent retrieving the weapons and using them to re-make the world.
When we find him in 'The Sixth Gun' he's a gunslinger who fought alongside a vicious general in the Civil War known as General Hume. Hume located the weapons (known as the Six) and gave them to several of his soldiers so that they could serve as his 'horsemen' and among them was Drake, who declined. However; Drake learns he can't outrun his destiny and begins fighting Hume (and other mystical/supernatural forces) to regain control of the Six.
In this fight Drake will be using FOUR of these weapons, conveniently titled The First, Second, Third, and Fourth.
While I know Luna is quite familiar with the series I'll simply be using this post as a brief introduction of my character's capabilities so that voters can further understand the world of 'The Sixth Gun' and while I'm at it I'm going to link my respect threads for both Drake himself and for each of The Six -- self promotion at it's best!
Also a note -- I don't like posting scans directly (as it takes up a lot of space and the formatting of CV can get buggy and ruin the order of things) so I'll be posting links to all of my scans as they're contained within a personal Imgur album of mine, so for anyone who reads this and initial thinks I'm not providing any proof, click the links!
Drake's Capabilities
Drake is, at his core, a fairly standard street level gunslinger whose strengths lie in his cunning strategies and lightning fast retaliations. During his Civil War days he was taught under Colonel Mosby (who is known as the Gray Ghost) where he became an expert in eluding capture, staging lightning-quick raids, and setting traps for his prey.
If he ever feels out-gunned or out-matched it's a common tactic of his to flee (elude capture), create a new plan (set traps for his prey) and then retaliate with a surprise attack (staging lightning-quick raids) as seen many times throughout the series given that Drake and his crew are usually being attacked by large (and powerful) groups.
Drake's personality is also fairly ruthless -- not blood thirsty, but ruthless. Initially he was hand selected by General Hume for his viciousness, as Hume was looking for cold-blooded murders and Drake fit the bill. While Drake does mention that the lifestyle wore down on him he still retained his killing nature, after all, to survive in the Supernatural Wild West that is 'The Sixth Gun' one can't be passive, and Drake has no problem killing a foe who comes up against him.
Lastly, and I don't know how important this is, Drake is quite familiar with the realm of the supernatural and mystical. He's fought giant monsters, demons, and spirits for example, and the very weapons he wields are forces of a supernatural nature. So if your character has any esoteric abilities, it likely won't shock Drake all that much, after all, he's pretty used to it.
So now that you know the man let's talk about his weapons.
The Six
As mentioned per the rules Drake is limited to using four of the mystical revolvers known as the Six. I'll briefly go over each one.
It's important to note that due to the mystical nature of these weapons they never need to be reloaded. They're also bonded to the person who wields them and are unable to be used by any other person while their bonded individual is still alive. If someone does try and use one of the Six without being bonded to it then they're covered in a vicious hellfire that can kill in seconds.
The First
The First Gun strikes with the force of a cannon shell. It's a high-impact weapon with no recoil. The weapon is consistently seen to be able to bust small buildings and could kill large mythical beings known as Thunderbirds (against which traditional small arms fire was useless) in a single shot.
In terms of raw power The First is the best at getting the job done.
The Second
The Second Gun expels the very Flames of Perdition -- encasing the target in a mystical hellfire. There isn't much more to say about it aside from it being good at causing some lasting damage (as the target will continue to burn for quite some time) and that it works on humans and supernatural beings given the fire's magical nature.
It's really good for crowd control as it can create a ring of fire to prevent escape.
The Third
The Third Gun spreads a flesh rotting disease. In terms of terrible ways to die, this one might be the worst, as the disease kills anyone without a healing factor pretty much instantly.
The Fourth Gun calls upon the spirits of the men and women it's shot down. The weapon itself is a seemingly normal revolver (in terms of it's projectiles) but the user can summon the spirits killed by the weapon.
When the spirits are summoned they take the form of humanoid mud golems that are incapable of speech. They are capable of using weapons and frequently are seen taking up both melee weapons and projectiles such as revolvers or shotguns -- but these weapons need to be found in their surroundings, they are not summoned already armed.
The durability of these golems is pretty minor as Drake and his companion, Betty, have been shown to be able to punch through them.
The most important note about these spirits is that one of them is Drake's side-kick, Billjohn, who asked Drake to kill him with the weapon after he had sustained life-threatening injuries in a fight with one of Hume's horsemen. In death, Billjohn is as loyal as he was in life, and seems to have received possibly enhanced strength -- or just has the same strength he had in life but was unable to showcase it prior to his death.
Drake has frequently used The Fourth to help him overwhelm a foe in numbers or to help him setup traps, as having more hands on deck allows him to work faster.
Thoughts on the Match
I'm really genuinely excited for this fight and think I'll have an interesting road ahead of me. As a debater I really respect my opponent and know that you (Luna) will have a lot of tricks up your sleeve that'll make me work for a victory if I am to obtain one.
I also know nothing about your character and look forward to your introduction before we get down into the thick of it.
(Also since I'm posting this on Jan 1st, 2020 -- Happy New Year!)
Legendary lawman, skilled metallurgist, master detective, and expert marksman. Waxillium Ladrian wears many hats, so to speak. Most know him as the Dawnshot, hero of the grim and desolate roughs. It was there in the barren, outlaw infested wastes that he truly found himself. Though Wax was born to the noble house Ladrian, he never quite felt at home in the life of a noble, leaving as a young man to explore the roughs, far away from his noble family and their affairs in the capital city of Elendel. Soon he began to gain a reputation as a gentleman bounty hunter, and then eventually a lawman of great renown. Born of a marriage between a noble father and a Terris mother, Wax is twinborn, meaning that he has access to two different metallic arts, which is a rarity. In this case, Waxillium was born with the abilities of allomantic steel and feruchemical iron, making him a coinshot and skimmer. At this point those terms most likely won't mean much to you, but they soon will.
A Few Things to Know
Allomancy
Allomancy is the ability to ingest and metabolize or “burn” certain metals to achieve supernatural powers. Some metals may increase your strength, speed, or senses while others allow you to manipulate emotions, push and pull on metals, or even see the future. Some metals such as tin, which enhances your senses, burns extremely slow and will last for hours. Other metals like pewter, which increases your physicals, burn significantly faster, lasting minutes depending on your supply of metals. Once the metal is “burned” it is gone and an allomancer must ingest more metals.
A brief history of allomancy - Apologies, you'll have to read.
Gallery
Feruchemy
Feruchemy , on the other hand, is the ability to store a certain attribute, or attributes, within a piece of metal, known as a metalmind. The type of metal determines the specific attribute that can be stored, and only individuals with an inborn affinity for feruchemy can use them. This process can probably be best explained through an example. The metal pewter allows an individual to store their strength. Say that a pewter feruchemist stored half their strength for an hour. They would then have a pool of strength to tap into at will that is equal to that hour of half strength. So, they could walk around at 1.5x strength for an hour, or 3x strength for half an hour, or many times their strength for a brief few seconds. However, they can only tap as much of an attribute as they have already stored in their metalminds.
An explanation of Feruchemy -
Gallery
Steel Pushing: Coinshot
The title coinshot grew out of the practice of using coins as deadly projectiles in older times. A skilled coinshot could kill a dozen men with only a handful of coins. Their ability allows them to sense and push on metal objects. If they are heavier than the metal object then the metal object is repelled away from them. The greater the weight imbalance the faster the object is repelled. If the object weighs more than they do, or is connected to something heavier than them, the coinshot is pushed away from the object. This, among other things, allows for a type of pseudo-flight by pushing against what is called an “anchor”, such as metal light poles, cars, or other heavy metal objects. The steel pusher sees thin translucent blue lines connecting them to every piece of metal in range, allowing them to mentally push on any one object they choose, or several at the same time.
Steelsense and Steel Pushing brief explanation -
Steel Flight -
Iron Skimming: Skimmer
Iron feruchemists are called skimmers because they can skim weight off themselves, making them exceptionally light. They can then harness that weight for a variety of effects, such as making climbing easier, or increasing their weight dramatically, making themselves almost impossible to move or allowing them to crush opponents with ease. As a point of interest, as skimmers grow heavier their bodies automatically adapt to the weight, but do not otherwise become more durable. This feruchemical ability makes for a particularly effective combination when utilized in conjunction with steel pushing because the user can manipulate their weight at will, allowing them to push things they normally could not push, push objects with greatly increased power, or fly faster and higher than they could otherwise fly.
Advantage in Flight -
Weight can be useful -
Helps Push -
Strategy and Thoughts:
Wax’s strategy would likely be simple. First, he would seek cover. Having a general idea of what his opponent’s guns could do, he would likely try to use the buildings as cover for a stealth approach. He’s a generally cautious person and typically likes to come up with a plan as opposed to charging in, guns blazing. Utilizing his steelsense to keep track of his opponent, he would circle closer using the buildings as a screen to his approach, until he gets close enough to make an allomantically enhanced ambush shot. His pseudo-flight abilities would give him far greater maneuverability than his opponent. Once he connects with a shot he would quickly follow up with more shots to make sure he kills his opponent, given how dangerous of an opponent Drake is. Wax is not the kind to underestimate his opponents, and his careful and detail-oriented nature would lend to him making sure his opponent is defeated before easing up.
The good news is that it is not difficult to tell what Wax will likely do in this situation. In the beginning chapter of Alloy of Law, he faces a similar albeit less daunting, situation. On his own in an abandoned town with a killer and others, Wax used his steelsense to help locate his enemies, then quickly picked them off with steel push aided gunshots that turn the bullets into super penetrating rounds. Wax is an excellent shot, able to consistently shoot a gun out of his opponent’s hand while standing on the roof of a moving train, for example. Given this information it makes sense that he would begin by laying low, hoping to find his target before the target could do the same. From there he will use the element of surprise and his ability to shoot through obstacles a normal gun wouldn’t penetrate to take Drake down with a well-placed shot or two.
Wax using steelsense in an abandoned town.
Gallery
Wax shooting gun out of Miles' hand, twice.
Gallery
Wax uses a steelpush to increase his penetration, though a balcony -
Wax fired, then Pushed on the bullet, slamming it forward with extra thrust to make it faster and more penetrating. He wasn’t using typical lead or copper-jacketed lead bullets; he needed something stronger. The large-caliber steel-jacketed bullet hit the balcony, and his extra power caused it to puncture the wood and hit the man behind. The blue line leading to the man’s gun quivered as he fell.
.
Wax is somewhat paranoid. He rarely stands in front of open windows for fear of being a prime target for snipers and does other little things throughout his daily routine from years of being on high alert in the roughs, chasing murderers and hardened criminals, some of them with supernatural abilities. If he faces opponents who outclass him he often uses his tactical mind to overcome the odds, such as when he planned a trap to take down Miles Dagouter, who had a healing factor Wolverine would be proud of, or when he stopped a superhuman Kandra by melting down his hemalurgic spike into a bullet. In fact, he is consistently outnumbered and outclassed, but has a habit of winning fights through sheer grit and ingenuity.
Wax is pretty smart -
Wax thinks quickly to take down someone more powerful -
Wax avoids windows -
Ultimately, Drake is a worthy opponent, and very deadly in this situation, but Wax has the skills and experience to take him down more times than not. His steel sense means that Drake won’t be able to hide from him, even behind solid walls and even with Drake’s considerable skill. As a pure marksman Wax is every bit Drake’s equal and though his guns offer far less firepower and one-hit potential, his twinborn abilities more than make up for it through their versatility. Drake is still a normal human physiologically, and an allomancy-enhanced gunshot or two will drop him as long as it doesn't hit his armor, just as they have dropped superhumanly durable Pewterarms. In the end, Wax just has more viable ways to win.
To be honest -- you've got a real great strategy and I think once I lay mine down you'll see we both have quite a bit going for us, but before I get into it I'd just like to comment on parts of your own strategy.
Steel Sense Tracking
So this is certainly an advantage that Wax has over Drake in regards to tracking, while I don't think it's impossible for Drake to get an idea of where you are (and think I'll be able to do it rather quick) you've got a bead on me from the get-go.
Now, due a lack of visual representation I'm going to just clarify that I understand how this tracking works. Basically, when Wax is sensing metal there are blue lines that expel from his chest to the sources of metal in the nearby area. If the lines are stationary the metal object must be stationary (ex: nails used to build a wall) but if the lines are moving then the metal object is moving?
If I'm correct in my understanding then it seems like this tracking would work great if it were Drake and Wax alone here, as obviously Drake would be the only moving metal; however, with the summons allowed from The Fourth Gun I think the tracking may be more unreliable than it's been presented.
Steel Push Projectiles
In regards to your projectiles I don't have too much to say. You do have the possibility of shooting through a wall, but I have the possibility of blowing half a building apart or lighting the entire building on fire with a shot or two.
So we've both got one-hit potential.
Thoughts About Your Overall Plan
The plan is good and I think if you were up against a less experienced debater that they'd quickly find themselves between a rock and a hard place; however, I don't intend on being put in that position.
My one criticism with your plan, from how you've proposed it, is that Wax needs to track me without being discovered himself, and get close enough so that he could shoot through a wall without me having any idea of where he is. A bold strategy, but one that I believe I can nullify with examples from some of Drake's previous encounters.
Sinclair and His Spirits (Barry's Plan)
The first logical step for Drake here is to use the Fourth Gun to summon the spirits of those it shot down. It's simple, easy, and can be done with the single shot to the sky.
Drake did this in The Sixth Gun #37 to fill a town similar to the one we're fighting in with these golems, which quickly responded to the opposition without Drake having to shout out any orders.
Among these spirits will be his best friend in both life and death, the Bounty Hunter known as Billjohn -- who I'll get more in depth about later, for now, I'll discuss the spirit squad.
Spirit Squad
The spirits, once summoned, will have the task of taking down Wax. Now, while I have no doubt that Wax can hold his own against the no-named spirits there are some important things I'd like to point out:
The spirits arrive unarmed, but still could arm themselves with anything they find in the town. I would assume that there are various tools such as pitchforks or axes that are lying around for some of these spirits to arm themselves if convenient.
If they do arm themselves with a weapon that contains metal (ex: Pitchfork) then that's more metal moving around which would make tracking difficult, as it wouldn't be as easy to pinpoint which one Drake is.
While the spirits may not be as strong as Wax or Drake, they're still a threat. They provide a strong counter to your stealth tactic as now you're having to navigate a town of hostile mud golems. Now you can kill them but that exposes you further. If you shoot one then obviously we have a sound cue of gunfire, Drake now has a better idea of where you're hiding. If you try and take one out quietly and use melee then you still expose yourself because the spirit leaving the golem would act like a flair of sorts, revealing your position.
In short -- these spirits are going to be a big hurdle to deal with. They make your stealth tactic difficult, grant more offensive and defensive capabilities for Drake, and if by chance they do overwhelm you then they could restrain you -- Asher Cobb was only able to fight off the horde of them because he's a giant mummy with supernatural strength.
Billjohn
Now onto Billjohn, a special case when it comes to the spirits contained within the Fourth Gun.
It was revealed that the spirits and their strength correspond to their willpower. They were fairly weak when fighting against Drake (under the command of Elias) but became stronger when fighting with Drake against General Hume and his men.
This is more evident with Billjohn since he asked Drake to kill him using the Fourth Gun so that he could continue helping Drake after his death -- and Billjohn in his spirit form is STRONG, he was able to easily toss Kirby Hale (a fully grown male) high into the air with only one arm.
Now, Billjohn won't be sent out with the no-name Spirits, instead, he'll be working more closely with Drake. The two have a history and he's good with a gun, of course, since he doesn't spawn with any weapons Drake will have to loan him one.
The good news is that Billjohn is very capable of using weapons (he commonly carries two shotguns in his golem form) and that the spirits don't suffer from any hellfire punishment if they pick up one of the Six.
For anyone who might assume it's because the spirits aren't actively using the gun, think again, these guns burn anyone who touches them who aren't bonded to them.
So with Billjohn summoned Drake will gift him with The Second Gun which fires the Flames of Perdition and will store the Third Gun inside of him.
This means that Drake will be carrying The Fourth (to command the spirits) and The First (for large impact) while Billjohn is carrying The Second (hellfire) and The Third (flesh rotting disease) which will enhance Billjohn's offensive capabilities against Wax and will make tracking Drake specifically even harder, as both he and Billjohn have two guns each.
Attacking Wax
By now Wax has hidden and is attempting to track Drake with his Steel Sense -- this plan should quickly be foiled as the spirits arm themselves with whatever they can find and with Drake giving two of his weapons to Billjohn.
The thing to do now is to find Wax, so we have to flush him out of hiding. The spirits should do a decent job of covering large portions of the town. If they find Wax they'll obviously attack him which results in either Wax being forced to flee or Wax fighting them. In either case he'll reveal his position as the spirits will be chasing him if he flees or their spirits will serve as flairs if he kills them.
Once Wax is exposed or is on the defensive then Drake and Billjohn can likely destroy any chance of him hiding behind cover with a combination of The First Gun (which can blow apart buildings with ease) or with The Second Gun which could light his cover on fire.
With the pressure that Drake & his Spirit Squad can apply I think it's going to be difficult for Wax to get that surefire kill shot needed on Drake and that Drake and team can overwhelm Wax and win the fight.
As usual I look forward to seeing how you retaliate @lunacyde and know that it'll be good!
TAGS
Since some folks wanted a tag after every post here are those tags:
Damn, I knew you wouldn’t let it be too easy, but this is going to take some thought! As a short aside I would like to mention that I already gave you credit as having the better guns for firepower/OHKO potential, if I was unclear with my first post. Anyway, the following explains my thoughts on the battle so far.
Counters:
Steelsense
You have the basic idea, and the issues you bring up with the steelsense are legitimate if the golems pick up metal objects. The steelsense gives him the ability to discern the relative size of the objects and distance from him due to the size and faintness of the lines, but it is not so adept that he could tell the difference between a revolver and a hammer from the other side of a wall for example. Luckily, the appearance of multiple moving lines of metal in an abandoned ghost town should give Wax some clue that everything isn’t as it seems, and he would modify his plan accordingly. Adapting mid-fight is another of Wax’s many skills.
Spirit-Golems
Given the guns’ legendary nature and the basic knowledge allowed by the OP, Wax should be at least vaguely familiar with Drake’s ability to summon golems. He will also generally know that he does not want to expose himself to Drake’s guns, which all boast OHKO potential. So, Wax will need a tactic to effectively deal with the spirit-golems without easily giving away his position with gunshots. It is lucky then that Wax just happens to possess such an ability. Although he’s a true gunslinger, his coinshot abilities extend far beyond the use of firearms. Wax can kill a man as easily with a coin as he can a bullet. In fact, he can use any small piece of metal with deadly precision and force, and always wears a steel button on his suit or vest just in case he needs to use it as a weapon. Using the coins in his pocket, the button on his suit, his belt buckle and loose bullets, nails and any other random bits of metal he can find laying around he can launch a stealthy attack against the golems without easily giving away his position by noise. Even the steel items they are carrying become tangible weapons to him, giving him a way to eliminate the spirit-golems without determining where the attack came from.
Wax could kill a dozen men with cufflinks.
Wax uses a bullet without a gun.
Wax kills with spent shotgun shells, through a wall.
He always has a steel button on his jacket, just in case.
Gallery
The escaping spirits acting as a flare is a good point. However, this method of tracking is less effective for you than you think. Because of his coinshot abilities, Wax can kill the golems at range, instead of melee. Since he isn’t right where they are when they release the flare it only gives a general area he’s in, and if his position is compromised he also has the maneuverability to get from place to place much faster than one could move by running. He could make it across the battlefield in seconds, repositioning himself.
Wax is very adept at maneuvering with his abilities.
Gallery
Adapting
Okay, in order to visualize how this will go down let’s assume Drake is standing where the horse is in the picture and Wax is standing right in front of where the tree is. You already acceded to Wax making it to cover. Let’s say he went to his left as he was facing you and sought cover in the buildings. It makes logical sense that when Drake summoned his golems he would send them in that direction. Now, the golems are not particularly fast by any measure and serve as a somewhat lumbering opponent here.
Once Wax realizes that it isn’t just the two of them in the fight, he will adapt his tactics accordingly. Realizing he’s outnumbered, the logical response for Wax will be to try and pick off his opponents one by one using the buildings as cover. This is a viable tactic given his coinshot abilities and tactical mind. He’s very slippery as Miles would say. He would wait for the golems to enter the side alleys, isolating themselves, and then ambush them from the backside of the buildings.
Wax is "slippery".
Wax is very smart. He notices things, unravels patterns, thinks well on his feet and is a very strong detective.
Gallery
Wax would attempt to quietly pick off the golems closest to him, and thus farthest from Drake, first. It seems by your post that Drake is mostly staying put until the golems can locate the enemy. This means that if Wax ambushes them in one of the far side alleys between the buildings, that he can take them down (silently with ranged shots), see the spirit flare, and use a push to maneuver himself down the line of buildings. The attention gathered by the spirit flares would likely draw in more golems as well as the attention of Drake and Billjohn, acting as an effective feint.
From there it would make sense for Wax to try and flank his opponents as you suggest they will open fire on the area where the initial golems were killed. The guns are powerful, but it would take quite a few shots to completely bring down the buildings near the ambush, giving Wax enough time to get an open shot on Drake. Drake and Billjohn will be unlikely to hear his approach over the sound of their own gunshots, giving him an opportunity to drop Drake while he is distracted. given Wax's skill as a gunfighter this should be more than enough for him to seal the victory.
With fuzzy vision, outdraws Miles, shoots him in the knee, shoots the gun out of his hand, and then shoots the gun off the train roof, on a rattling, shaking train.
Outdraws Miles again and shoots him in the hand, then mouth.
Takes down 4 men in a split second.
If Drake somehow did notice him, Wax still has the advantage of surprise. It is more likely he will be able to get an accurate shot off given his skill and the element of surprise. And then there is one last trick up Wax's sleeve. He has an ability that he often uses called a steel bubble. It can't deflect away dead-on shots, but it does push away shots that aren't dead-center, meaning your shot, while being ambushed will need to be better than mine with the element of surprise.
Steel bubble.
Gallery
Wax carries a lot of guns as well.
Gallery
As a side note, Wax can push straight upwards 20 stories with his abilities, so launching himself a few buildings down the line horizontally shouldn’t be too much of an issue. Drake is not expecting this as per the strategy given, which gives Wax a very good opportunity that he would not hesitate to take advantage of. Once downed he wouldn' underestimate his target either.
Never underestimate. Note this is someone he cared for, which is why he didn't kill her outright.
Launches himself upward 20 stories.
Conclusion
A great counter and creative use of your abilities. This is truly a great match. I think however, that Wax’s own creativity, resourcefulness, and maneuverability across the battlefield was not accounted for properly. Given your stated strategy and abilities, as well as his own natural abilities and tendencies, Wax has an excellent chance of successfully executing the strategy detailed above and bringing down an exceptionally dangerous opponent.
It's time for my final post and before I get into it I'd like to thank you for being one of my favorite opponents to debate against on the Vine, this match has been super fun & I know the readers will agree.
Now, pleasantries aside, it's time to try and win this - BLOOD AND THUNDER!
Responses to Wax's Adaptation Strategy
My main goal with the previous post was to deny the stealth/tracking strategy as much as possible by forcing you to move and I think it worked fairly well for me.
Wax can kill a man as easily with a coin as he can a bullet. In fact, he can use any small piece of metal with deadly precision and force, and always wears a steel button on his suit or vest just in case he needs to use it as a weapon. Using the coins in his pocket, the button on his suit, his belt buckle and loose bullets, nails and any other random bits of metal he can find laying around he can launch a stealthy attack against the golems without easily giving away his position by noise. Even the steel items they are carrying become tangible weapons to him, giving him a way to eliminate the spirit-golems without determining where the attack came from.
This is fairly fine with me given that even when the golems are killed they can simply be re-summoned. Billjohn for example has been "killed" several times, I use him as an example because he's the only easily distinguishable face among the rest of the unnamed golems.
Side Note: It's also likely that not every golem would've found a weapon while wandering the town. While it may not seem significant, I do believe that these golems are not to be underestimated when in large numbers.
All this to say that you may be able to dispatch them quickly at first, but they can keep coming back as long as Drake has the Fourth Gun. Not all of them can be tracked because not all of them would have weapons and those that don't aren't to be dismissed, as shown with how the no-name spirits dealt with supernatural beings (Demons & Thunderbird) that far surpassed them in stats.
The escaping spirits acting as a flare is a good point. However, this method of tracking is less effective for you than you think. Because of his coinshot abilities, Wax can kill the golems at range, instead of melee. Since he isn’t right where they are when they release the flare it only gives a general area he’s in, and if his position is compromised he also has the maneuverability to get from place to place much faster than one could move by running. He could make it across the battlefield in seconds, repositioning himself.
A general idea is all we need here.
As previously mentioned Drake is a master of staging lightning quick raids. His entire strategies rely on appearing, causing as much chaos as possible in a short window, and fleeing.
The number of golems at my disposal would make your maneuverability slightly hindered. You can't use steel sense to track all of the golems because as mentioned, they wouldn't all have metal, so trying to move to an area that's "safe" is going to pretty difficult.
You showcase your push ability which I concede give you more maneuverability than Drake, but moving through the alleys that are filled with the golems is dangerous for you and trying to move above the buildings would make it easier for Drake & Billjohn to track you. If you're on the defensive trying to fight off hordes while also trying to keep track of two individuals who have massive 1HKO potential then I truly believe it's only a short matter of time before you slip up and get hit.
Wax's Perception/Interpretation of Events
You've detailed how your adaptation strategy would play out to give you the edge, here are my thoughts.
Okay, in order to visualize how this will go down let’s assume Drake is standing where the horse is in the picture and Wax is standing right in front of where the tree is. You already acceded to Wax making it to cover. Let’s say he went to his left as he was facing you and sought cover in the buildings. It makes logical sense that when Drake summoned his golems he would send them in that direction. Now, the golems are not particularly fast by any measure and serve as a somewhat lumbering opponent here.
You're certainly fast and I do believe you could flee into the town while Drake summons the golems, despite it requiring only the single pull of a trigger.
While the golems may be seen as a lumbering foe they have the base stats of average humans (at worst) and their sheer numbers make them a dangerous foe.
Once Wax realizes that it isn’t just the two of them in the fight, he will adapt his tactics accordingly. Realizing he’s outnumbered, the logical response for Wax will be to try and pick off his opponents one by one using the buildings as cover. This is a viable tactic given his coinshot abilities and tactical mind. He’s very slippery as Miles would say. He would wait for the golems to enter the side alleys, isolating themselves, and then ambush them from the backside of the buildings.
Trying to bottleneck some of them is a valid tactic and would allow you to handle maybe three or four at a time, but once the first spirit flare goes off that spot is going to be watched -- trying to safely get away is going to be a problem.
Wax would attempt to quietly pick off the golems closest to him, and thus farthest from Drake, first. It seems by your post that Drake is mostly staying put until the golems can locate the enemy. This means that if Wax ambushes them in one of the far side alleys between the buildings, that he can take them down (silently with ranged shots), see the spirit flare, and use a push to maneuver himself down the line of buildings. The attention gathered by the spirit flares would likely draw in more golems as well as the attention of Drake and Billjohn, acting as an effective feint.
Drake wouldn't be in the front line here -- he knows from his general information that you're a worthy opponent and that you have some sort of supernatural/mystical abilities.
The first time a flare goes off Drake and Billjohn would likely be moving to that area. There's a high chance that some golems would see you fleeing with your push abilities and would follow you causing you to either deal with them (sending off more flares) or to just try and ignore them, which would be a poor move leaving them unchecked.
Our goal here isn't to catch you right after the first flare goes up but to reduce where you can go next. This example might not be the best but it's like Final Exam in MHA that Kaminari and Ashido had to deal with -- the battlefield around them was constantly being destroyed to herd them into a corner, which is exactly what Drake and Billjohn can do with their AOE weapons, The First & Second Guns.
This town, being a stereotypical western town, shouldn't be that large, maybe a block or two at best, so your chances of fleeing to a "safe" area dwindles pretty quick.
From there it would make sense for Wax to try and flank his opponents as you suggest they will open fire on the area where the initial golems were killed. The guns are powerful, but it would take quite a few shots to completely bring down the buildings near the ambush, giving Wax enough time to get an open shot on Drake. Drake and Billjohn will be unlikely to hear his approach over the sound of their own gunshots, giving him an opportunity to drop Drake while he is distracted. given Wax's skill as a gunfighter this should be more than enough for him to seal the victory.
Trying to ambush Drake and Billjohn while you're on the run seems difficult. It takes a single shot from Billjohn to set a wooden building on fire and we see in the series that the Second Gun could completely ignite an alleyway with a blast.
The fact that both Drake and Billjohn are together, surrounded by a town full of golems looking to get Wax seems to render your flank a harder task to pull off, plus the fact that you still don't know who is who from your steel sense. Just like me you only have a general idea based on weight and area.
If Drake somehow did notice him, Wax still has the advantage of surprise. It is more likely he will be able to get an accurate shot off given his skill and the element of surprise. And then there is one last trick up Wax's sleeve. He has an ability that he often uses called a steel bubble. It can't deflect away dead-on shots, but it does push away shots that aren't dead-center, meaning your shot, while being ambushed will need to be better than mine with the element of surprise.
I don't know if it'd be that much of a surprise. You're rapidly moving through the town setting off flares then Drake knows you're quick, his guard certainly wouldn't be down.
I also feel like it's worth mentioning that in one of the feats you provided for the bubble Wax still got clipped in the arm. If that happened with 3 out of my 4 weapons you'd likely be dead. Plus, Drake and Billjohn don't need to worry about conserving ammo -- and Drake can pull a trigger pretty quickly as shown when he emptied two normal revolvers against a foe.
I think the steel bubble would deter a normal gunslinger but the powers of the Six should turn slight misses into results.
As a side note, Wax can push straight upwards 20 stories with his abilities, so launching himself a few buildings down the line horizontally shouldn’t be too much of an issue. Drake is not expecting this as per the strategy given, which gives Wax a very good opportunity that he would not hesitate to take advantage of. Once downed he wouldn' underestimate his target either.
Again, trying to move like this seems difficult when the whole area is filled with hostile forces, particularly when the landscape starts exploding and is lit aflame.
A Conclusion
While I don't think it's an easy fight I think it's a fight that Drake can win.
The goal here was to hinder your tracking capabilities and to keep you second guessing, which I believe I accomplished with the army of golems.
Next was to keep you from establishing any point to fight back from. In your adapted strategy you're constantly trying to flee throughout the town to escape the golems and to mislead Drake, but there's only so many places you can run to, and it's become more difficult with the golems patrolling everywhere and Drake and Billjohn's AOE attack.
You've also admitted that Drake's 1HKO potential is strong. In your strategy you need to avoid/fight back against countless targets and then get a kill shot on Drake in the midst of all the chaos -- this is tough because Drake does have some armor plating that's hidden beneath his clothes (a mutation from The First Gun) and even if he is shot, Drake has been shot and stabbed multiple times in a fight but still remained kicking -- and he can hit precise shots even while in serious pain, his arms were being burned by hellfire since he was using a weapon he wasn't bonded to.
I think the pressure that Drake and his team can apply is significantly enough to counter your maneuverability and to make an assault on my team very difficult to pull off. The golems, while bland individually, are quite strong when in numbers, and the fact that I can simply re-summon them if their number dwindles is a huge advantage.
Regardless of what the voters say, win or lose, this was an incredibly fun match and I'm happy I had the pleasure to debate you @lunacyde. I look forward to your final post and hope we see more of both of our characters in the future!
I can’t even describe what a treat this CaV has been. It's been a long time since I’ve participated in one and I couldn’t ask for a more skilled and gracious opponent. Thank you Barry for challenging me and making this debate enjoyable. Without further ado, let us enter the endgame with shadows and steel!
Counters:
A drawn out fight? Not likely.
While I commend your response, many of your points presuppose that the fight will be drawn out. However, I must point out that this should only be considered if you are able to counter Wax’s “kill and flank” strategy, which I believe the voters will agree you have not. Wax is completely capable of dealing with the drawn out fight you suggest will happen, but the way things have unfolded it is extremely unlikely he will have to.
The adapted strategy is a very short one once Wax attacks the golems. This strategy would take literal seconds from the moment the spirit flare appears. Wax can push himself at blinding speeds and he should be able to reposition very quickly. From there it's simply a matter of spotting his opponents and opening fire. You already dedicated Drake to opening fire on the buildings around where the spirit flare appeared, leaving him with nowhere to hide.
It should be remembered that although they move too fast for him to properly react to, Wax’s steel sense also detects bullets. With his steelsense and hearing the gunshots he should be able to very quickly find Drake and open fire on him considering you never mention Drake and Billjohn splitting up, and later confirm they are together. There is nothing stopping Wax from pushing past them along the backside of the buildings as they fire and/or rush toward the spirit flares, then quickly firing on them from behind. His maneuverability means even if there are golems on the ground level he can simply push himself up to the second floor of the buildings and find an area where they are not near enough to make a difference. He only needs a few seconds free to locate and fire, and even if some wood obstructs his target he can penetrate through it as shown previously.
Steelsense detects bullets, and he can recall their origin.
Wax penetrates thick oak tables revolver bullets could never penetrate. This coupled with the previous shot through the balcony shows their penetrative power.
Spirit-Golems
The spirit-golems are a valuable tool, but I believe that Wax’s own abilities counter them well. His maneuverability can easily keep him out of their reach, and he can take them out from range with his coinshot abilities. Their relative slowness and need to be in a large group to be a threat undermine their effectiveness here. While we see them sometimes swarm large creatures like the thunderbird and that beast with their numbers, I don’t remember them ever displaying any impressive individual speed or being a direct threat to any of the main characters. They are by nature fodder, weak enough durability-wise that simple punches are enough to destroy them. The golems are at best as fast as an average human, and though Wax is certainly no bullet-timer he is very quick. He was able to dodge a blow from the superhumanly quick Tarson when he was surprised face to face with him. With his maneuverability in mind they should pose him little threat, though he would of course treat them as a valid threat because of his nature.
Wax dodges superhumanly fast Tarson.
Destroyed by normal punches.
Gallery
While it is true that not every spirit-golem will have grabbed something metal your earlier post made it seem that the majority would. While he cannot track those who do not have metal items with steelsense, he can still see them and hear them like anyone could. Wax's hearing is pretty good. To my recollection the golems do not have any particular stealth feats, nor have they ever been used in a stealthy way. They are used as a horde typically, meaning it shouldn’t be hard to detect them coming. It is also true that you could just replenish fallen spirits, however as I’ve mentioned I doubt the fight will last long enough either way that this will be a deciding factor. The way it seems to be unfolding one of them is going to get a shot on the other before a second or third round of spirits would likely come into play.
Wax has pretty sharp hearing, hearing two men who intentionally were trying to make sure he didn't hear them. Doubles as a fighting feat. Wax and his partner took down 31 bandits in a crowded ballroom without an innocent dying.
The number of golems at my disposal would make your maneuverability slightly hindered. You can't use steel sense to track all of the golems because as mentioned, they wouldn't all have metal, so trying to move to an area that's "safe" is going to pretty difficult.
You showcase your push ability which I concede give you more maneuverability than Drake, but moving through the alleys that are filled with the golems is dangerous for you and trying to move above the buildings would make it easier for Drake & Billjohn to track you. If you're on the defensive trying to fight off hordes while also trying to keep track of two individuals who have massive 1HKO potential then I truly believe it's only a short matter of time before you slip up and get hit.
I’m not sure if I made it clear in my previous post, but the idea is to rapid fire “kill” a few of the golems simultaneously as the golems move through the side alleys. Wax himself will be waiting to ambush them, likely from the backside of a roof, where he will have more open space to move. Once the spirit flare goes off Wax will know he needs to reposition using his pushing. Since his coinshot attack wouldn't make noise they probably wouldn't even know where the attack came from. Therefore, after killing his opponents, he can simply push himself along the backside of the buildings. The golems wouldn’t likely even see him until he was in-flight. Wax is the most skilled steel pusher in the Mistborn universe when it comes to flight, and he’s capable of very precise and complicated aerial maneuvers using his skimming. I believe it is completely within his ability to keep himself out of the reach of the golems without rising above the buildings enough for Drake to spot him.
Steel (flight) is Wax's domain.
Gallery
Changes in Plan
Drake wouldn't be in the front line here -- he knows from his general information that you're a worthy opponent and that you have some sort of supernatural/mystical abilities.
The first time a flare goes off Drake and Billjohn would likely be moving to that area. There's a high chance that some golems would see you fleeing with your push abilities and would follow you causing you to either deal with them (sending off more flares) or to just try and ignore them, which would be a poor move leaving them unchecked.
Our goal here isn't to catch you right after the first flare goes up but to reduce where you can go next. This example might not be the best but it's like Final Exam in MHA that Kaminari and Ashido had to deal with -- the battlefield around them was constantly being destroyed to herd them into a corner, which is exactly what Drake and Billjohn can do with their AOE weapons, The First & Second Guns.
This town, being a stereotypical western town, shouldn't be that large, maybe a block or two at best, so your chances of fleeing to a "safe" area dwindles pretty quick.
While I am willing to say this makes sense given Drake as a character I would like to point out that this is not what you indicated he would be doing previously, and no logical explanation is given to explain why Drake would suddenly change tactics. Previously you said:
Once Wax is exposed or is on the defensive then Drake and Billjohn can likely destroy any chance of him hiding behind cover with a combination of The First Gun (which can blow apart buildings with ease) or with The Second Gun which could light his cover on fire.
No mention was ever given before of Drake seeking cover, or moving toward the area of the spirit flare. What was mentioned was that Drake and Billjohn would try to destroy the nearby cover. Your latest post says they are moving toward the spirit flare, so it is logical for them to be moving toward the spirit flare firing at the buildings where the spirit flare was. Now, given the picture of the town presented we know that the town is at least six buildings long, and that Wax sought cover at the very far end of the town from Drake. Therefore, according to your strategy, while Wax is flying at considerable speed away from the spirit flare (at the far end of the town from Drake), Drake, Billjohn, and any golems who don’t see Wax flying are running towards it and Drake and Billjohn are firing.
The Second Gun and Billjohn
Trying to ambush Drake and Billjohn while you're on the run seems difficult. It takes a single shot from Billjohn to set a wooden building on fire and we see in the series that the Second Gun could completely ignite an alleyway with a blast.
This seems like it would be a much bigger issue if Billjohn was actually firing where I am, instead of a couple buildings down as I have fled repositioning myself for an ambush somewhere they do not expect me, given the stated strategy.
The Amount of Golems and Limitations of Steelsense
The fact that both Drake and Billjohn are together, surrounded by a town full of golems looking to get Wax seems to render your flank a harder task to pull off, plus the fact that you still don't know who is who from your steel sense. Just like me you only have a general idea based on weight and area.
If I was only relying on my steelsense this would make sense, but I can also see and hear. The sound of gunshots still gives you away, as well as the appearance of the fired bullets to my steelsense. They can help me find a place to get eyes on you.
I think a town full of golems is a little bit of hyperbole. The most golems I can ever recall seeing on panel was maybe thirty golems tops, and they tend to like to cluster together in groups, so I don’t think they will cover as much of the town as you imply. Also, as I previously mentioned there would likely be places where the golems would not or could not go, like rooftops or balconies.
An Important Assumption
I don't know if it'd be that much of a surprise. You're rapidly moving through the town setting off flares then Drake knows you're quick, his guard certainly wouldn't be down.
I never suggested Wax would be setting off any flares besides the very first ones. He’s smart enough, as I’ve shown previously, to avoid setting off any more unless he doesn’t have any other choice and given his maneuverability he will almost always have another choice. There's nothing forcing him to destroy golems when they can't reach or catch him.
Without a doubt this is true. However, it does depend on the angle you are firing at me and whether the bullet hits anything near me. If the bullet passes by without hitting anything, it won’t be a problem. If I am above you when you fire a miss will pass harmlessly by because of the firing angle. However, you would have to know where I am and fire at me before I fire at you for this tactic to work, and that has not been established.
I also feel like it's worth mentioning that in one of the feats you provided for the bubble Wax still got clipped in the arm. If that happened with 3 out of my 4 weapons you'd likely be dead. Plus, Drake and Billjohn don't need to worry about conserving ammo -- and Drake can pull a trigger pretty quickly as shown when he emptied two normal revolvers against a foe.
I think the steel bubble would deter a normal gunslinger but the powers of the Six should turn slight misses into results.
Yes, I intentionally included the feat where he gets hit to show that the steel bubble is not foolproof, otherwise the fight wouldn’t even be fair. I agree with all of this, my point in bringing up the steel bubble is simply to increase the difficulty of you getting a killing blow and comparing it to my chances of doing so. You will have to be able to detect my ambush, get off a shot, and have that shot be pinpoint accurate, whereas I will have the advantage of surprise, be able to push my bullet so that it reaches you quicker, and not have to worry about my bullet being pushed away harmlessly if it is an inch or two off-target.
Wax can push the bullets to increase their speed. Doubles as an accuracy feat.
Devastated Landscape
Again, trying to move like this seems difficult when the whole area is filled with hostile forces, particularly when the landscape starts exploding and is lit aflame.
Given the stated strategies and logical unfolding of events the buildings exploding and being burned are a few down from where I'll be. Again, I think you are overselling the amount of golems and the amount of area they will be able to cover. Even if they see me flying and chase me at full speed they will never catch up before I can get a shot off, and there are always areas where it would be unlikely for golems to have reached. All I need is to find an area that will give me a few seconds to spot and pull the trigger. All the plan requires is a second of distraction; a fraction of a second of surprise and my accuracy and the speed of my bullets should be able to take you down before you retaliate. With my maneuverability, I have no doubt that I can get that mere fraction of a second I need.
Conclusion:
I give a sincere thanks and praise to Barry. He’s really made me think and despite my confidence that I have done a great job in countering his argument, I can say that he really pushed me to provide my best argument to even have a chance of winning. I also want to say thank you to the judges and other who will be reading, discussing, voting, and otherwise part of this fun process, I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did.
Truly, I believe that Wax will win this fight more often than not. That is not to say Drake can’t win, all it takes from him is a lucky shot and Wax is dead. However, in my opinion, that is what it will take for him to defeat Wax given Wax’s versatile abilities, maneuverability, accuracy, and tactical acumen. I believe my arguments have been sufficient in proving this truth. It is a truly great fight, which is exactly what I thought it would be when I proposed it to Barry.
However, I just see too much in Wax’s favor here. I don’t see a strong enough counter to Wax flanking Drake. As stated all he needs is a spot clear enough to give him a few seconds, just enough to get a jump on his opponent and fire first. With Wax’s accuracy and the speed of his bullets, Drake would need to clearly fire first to win that exchange and given the element of surprise and the steel bubble I just don’t see that going in your favor.
Some of the previously stated strategy locks Drake into some actions that Wax can take advantage of, such as attacking where the spirit flare went off, and some assumptions are made that I believe are not born out by my own argument, such as Wax setting off spirit flares left and right.
In the end, Wax could simply push himself back behind Drake (judging his position by the gunfire), push up onto the roof behind where Drake is looking, and take him out from behind. Wax can decrease his weight so his footfalls are light and make little sound, and the sound of gunfire will further make it impossible for Drake to hear him. It's unlikely that the golems would be on a rooftop. There has simply not been a truly effective counter to this tactic and there is nothing from the argument made that proves Drake could do anything to stop it.
This was a great read, found myself switching between sides every post. The debate was also really close, and even as I write this vote I find myself second guessing and wavering. Great job on both sides, a truly enjoyable read.
However I think I'll have to vote for TTBA. I found his strategy a lot more realistic and conversely not as much by Lunacyde's. The decisive factor in this debate, in my opinion, rests entirely on whether Wax's guerilla warfare eventually(or abruptly, according to Lunacyde) allows him to reach Drake and which of the two can land the OHKO first. Regarding the latter, I was neutral. I couldn't choose between the maneuverability/ steel bubble/ element of suprise advantage Wax had versus Drake's quick fire/ massive AOE and firepower.
Regarding the former, I leaned more towards TTBA. I wasn't convinced Wax could pull his guerilla strategy in a town infested with immortal golems. Mainly because I was narrrowly convinced by the golem army's and presence sufficiently hindering his maneuverability and stealth. And the BNHA analogy TTBA presented was also more realistic, in this scenario.
This was definitely one of the best CaVs I have read in awhile! I knew nothing of both characters, so it is really interesting to learn about new characters and have them be represented by very strong debaters. I have to start by commending the both of you for the top-notch quality of this debate. You were both passionate, respectful, and civil throughout, and that is sadly not always the case in a CaV. Your attitude and behaviour was inspiring.
As for the actual debate, I found myself switching sides at every post. You both managed to convince me that this is anyone's game, and I found it very difficult to decide on a winner. I had to read through it again to come to a decision and I'm still not certain.
It was made pretty clear that either character can one-shot the other. Whereas Drake had the advantage of summons and multiple guns, Wax was overall more versatile and well-rounded in terms of offence, defence, and situational abilities. You both had excellent and well-throughout strategies that could realistically happen. Your arguments and counters were efficient and effective.
Overall, I have decided to give my vote to @thetruebarryallen, as I believe Drake could edge out a win more times than Wax could. The golems were a strong selling point, and the AoE and DC of Drake's guns slightly outweigh the versatility and accuracy of Wax's capabilities.
In conclusion, this was an excellent debate carried out by two very skilled and passionate individuals. This was a very fun read, and I'd like to congratulate the both of you!
Very Interesting thread indeed. Two masters of the craft representing characters outside of the norm in a well executed debate.
Kudos to both sides, whom laid out their respective arguments well. Each point was articulately presented, rebuttals were concise and to the point, credit was given were credit was due, and the aesthetic flow was proper without excessive scan dumping.
That being said, my official vote goes to @thetruebarryallen after quite some consideration. Overall his argument swayed me more, and felt his strategy was the more sound against his opponent. Well done to both sides, short but fantastic debate.
Well, this was a great match and certainly worthy of the All Stars. Both debaters did a really good job arguing their characters advantages, with Luna focusing on Wax's mobility with steel fight and general combat intelligence, and Barry stressing Drake's numbers advantage and general AoE provided by the six. All in all, I think I'll have to give the win to Barry, but it was very close. I think he made good arguments against why Wax's stealth flank strategy wouldn't work amazingly given how the summons of the fourth gun work and due to the environment limiting how much free space Wax has to run around in. I do think Wax would be able to take a few wins here and there but overall I see Drake taking the majority.
As I said before, excellent match and I'm excited to see the other All Star matches continue
Very Interesting thread indeed. Two masters of the craft representing characters outside of the norm in a well-executed debate.
Kudos to both sides, who laid out their respective arguments well. Each point was articulately presented, rebuttals were concise and to the point, credit was given where credit was due, and the aesthetic flow was proper without excessive scan dumping.
That being said, my official vote goes to @thetruebarryallen after quite some consideration. Overall his argument swayed me more and felt his strategy was the more sound against his opponent. Well done to both sides, short but fantastic debate.
Basically my thoughts in a nutshell. Excellent stuff guys, looking forward to your next debate.
TheTrueBarryAllen wins, 5 -0. A special thank you to all those who took the time to read the match, and thank you to the debaters for making it interesting! Here are the remaining matches:
@thetruebarryallen: @lunacyde_Voting is closed and I'm in All-Stars so I was only gonna vote if we didn't hit 5 votes, but I wanted to share my thoughts since this was a very good match. There wasn't any difference in debating quality so it comes down to which character had the better set of abilities.
There was quite a bit more at play than a standard gunslinger match which I appreciated. Both sides had advantages with Wax having better manuverability via flight and Drake having greater versatility. Both had clear ways to win. I will say the strategy of using a golem as a signal flare seemed like a double edged sword since Wax would know Drake would head for the signal.
Overall I think Wax simply has to get through a lot more to win. He has to bypass all the golems and explosives and get into shooting range of Drake. The best strategy would be to use flight and leap high to get a good angle. To be fair he has an advantage in tracking and Luna made a good case that he could indeed follow through on the ideal tactic, but I simply think it's more likely he'll get tagged or exposed before lining up for a good shot. Barry convinced me Drake could apply his versatility for an effective result which is all he'd need to do.
Log in to comment