2019 High Tier PYP 1st Edition Rd2: Major_Hellstorm vs TheWatcherKing(Open for votes)

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#1 Edited by emperorthanos- (16898 posts) - - Show Bio

It's round 2 Folks

@major_hellstrom

Characters

  • Mothra (1)
  • Mano (5)
  • Abra Kadabra (6)
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Perks

  • Light speed (Mano) (7)
  • 2 Extra character points (5)
  • Invisibility (2) (Abra Kadabra)
  • 1 hour prep (1)
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@thewatcherking

  • CW Thinker 2
  • Janemba 8.
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Perks

  • Soul/TP immunity (7)
  • Invisibility (2)
  • No Friendly fire (5)
  • 1 hr prep(1)

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. Time Jumping, remnants, speeding up ones own time is allowed. Other forms of time manip is banned.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Power Copying/stealing.
  8. No Summons, constructs or any other fodder stronger than 616 Bleeding Edge Iron Man.
  9. Summons are limited to 200
  10. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote is unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet inside a Solar System like others, with no other people on it except for the fighters.

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Moderator
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#2 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18964 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom Would you care to go first? I have a feeling that your prep is going to be more extravagant than mine.

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#3 Posted by Chronicplane (9517 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP.

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#4 Posted by geekryan (6198 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#5 Posted by FaradaySloth (12213 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP and T4V

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#6 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: I don’t have extravagant prep (at least not like last time). But I guess I could go first, though it could take more than a week since I’m in the middle of exams.

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#8 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: I know I said this would take a while, but this was mostly just copied and paste with some new information added based on the movie

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One Minute Death Squad

For this post, I'm going to skip all the intro stuff and get right into the meat of the debate. This is because I am using two underutilized DC villains, meaning they don't have a bunch of feats or history that I need to explain.

Now, the goal of this team is simple, it is to kill the enemy team in a minute or less. This can be done because each member of my team has the ability to defeat an enemy near instantaneously, hence the name. Let me start by breaking it down for you, starting with Mano.

Mano

First of all, let's talk about speed. Now, as you may have noticed Mano has the lightspeed perk which gives him lightspeed travel, reaction and combat speed, which should make him faster than your team (or at the very least much faster than Malekith). With lightspeed Mano would be able to circle an Earth-sized planet 7 and a half times in a second.

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Mano is also pretty agile just with his own speed.

Destroys missiles

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Uses agility to outmanoeuvre Persuader

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This important because Mano's power can kill or destroy any being with just a touch.

A sample of Mano disintegrating a ton of steel with a touch

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Here he disintegrates a Legionnaire with a touch

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He can even destroy energy fields with his hand, as he demonstrates against Brainiac while saying that his anti-matter hand can disintegrate anything.

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It should also be noted that Mano was continuously destroying those shields, the same ones that had stopped Superman dead in his tracks earlier.

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Dialogue confirms Superman was moving at blur speeds to Sun Boy, so he certainly was trying for the blitz.

Another important thing to note here is the word anti-matter as it is a type of hax that requires a special defense against, one that is treated as incredibly powerful in comics in general.

Here are some feats for anti-matter

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  • Scan 1: Experimental anti-matter gun shuts down Franklin Richard's brain, who was building enough power to threaten the solar system.
  • Scan 2-3: Drax destroys Thanos with an anti-matter grenade.
  • Scan 4: Anti-matter bomb destroys a planet.
  • Scan 5: Anti-matter shells pierces Celestials.

And before you say that's just Marvel, let's not forget that one of DC's most overpowered villains, in their history, Anti-Monitor, got his power from the Anti-Matter Universe.

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But wait, there's more.

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  • Scan 1: Superman states that anti-matter meeting regular matter is mutually assured destruction, saying that even Kryptonians aren't immune to its effects.
  • Scan 2: Confirmation that anti-matter can effect Superboy and Validus a solid pre-crisis team buster.
  • Scan 3: Superman states an anti-matter explosion would damage the space-time continuum.
  • Scan 4: Spectre confirms that anti-matter touching regular matter is mutally assured destruction.
  • Scan 5: Upon contact with anti-matter, Spectre's body is deformed despite being a spectre.

Now, I'm not here just to list down feats for just anti-matter, because Mano himself has one particularly impressive feat of destruction himself that proves his might. That feat being the destruction of his entire planet and everyone in it.

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Though he did strain himself, it is important to note this was done on a whim. Another showing of power was when Mano's hand stopped the Persuader's ax.

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Same ax that can cut through anything.........no, not hyperbolically, literally anything. Including gravity.

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Conclusion: With the lightspeed perk Mano possesses and his incredibly powerful anti-matter hand, you'd be hard-pressed to avoid just getting dusted by Mano, Spidey style.

Abra Kadabra

Now in terms of Abra Kadabra, you'd have to be dealing with a different type of hax. Assuming you can even deal with anti-matter, you'd have to also somehow have high-level transmutation resistance to avoid instant defeat. But before I explain why, let me first go back to speed because Abra is first and foremost a Flash villain, so I have no doubt that he can match or even outspeed your characters in spell casting.

For starters, Abra has been able to react to an angry Flash mid blitz by hitting him with lightning.

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He does so multiple times.

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As for transmutation, he is able to turn the Flash into light mid blitz, while saying that the Flash is lightspeed.

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The Flash Abra tagged was actually an alternate one called Walter West. One of the only guys in fiction who can be argued as faster than Wally, as evidenced by him blitzing and pinning Wally down.

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He can even react to two Flashes at the same time.

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In recent times he has even outright outsped Wally West, yes you heard that right.

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In case you missed it, it is actually outright stated by Wally himself.

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So yeah, there's no way you're going to out-cast this guy. Meaning we get the first strike, and with that advantage, Kadabra can do a thousand things to end the fight early. Starting with Kadabra's favourite feat, turning people into puppets.

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He can also turn you into a jack-in-the-box

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Make you old and overweight

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Rapidly age you until you die

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Or turn you into a tortoise

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Also, just in case transmutation doesn't work, he can just puppet you anyway through magic. As he demonstrates here when he forces Barry to run, and Jay and Supes to freeze in running positions.

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Conclusion: Abra Kadabra is fast enough to react to and sometimes even toy with Flash, giving him a first mover's advantage. With it he can instantly end the fight by way of transmutation, rapidly ageing you or just controlling your bodies to follow his command.

Prep

My prep will be quite simple but deadly, which you can probably see is the overaching theme of my team. First things first, Abra will double the power of my team.

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Wally later confirms the boost in power

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Even claiming that the doppelgangers could drop them easily if the doppelgangers weren't toying with them

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Which is not a statement of hyperbole, since the doppelgangers do exactly that

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Red Arrow is taken hostage (1) as are the rest of the Titans (2)

That's mostly it for prep, but just because I can. Abra will also summon prehistoric giants

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And he can conjure up those doppelganger Teen Titans too, since he made them the first time.

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Oh, and just to throw the possibility out there, Abra can also time jump 4,000 years in the future, meaning you'd need characters that could survive 4,000 years in a barren planet before the battle begins.

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Leaping is synonymous with jumping, which is in the rules as one of the only forms of time manipulation allowed.

And yeah, Abra can bring my team on with him.

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The Battle

I knew almost nothing about your team, so I looked at your past debates with them and watched the Dragon Ball movie Janemba is in, and I have to say I have no idea why Janemba is priced so highly, I'm guessing it has something to do with the trademark DBZ scaling which I dread. But for now, I have to say that I think my team can zap yours to bits. Unless I missed something crucial, Janemba has never encountered anti-matter and a 2 pointer like DeVoe shouldn't be able to take a planet level attack like Mano can bring (when he is unamped).

I also think that Mano could blitz both your characters to be done with this battle fairly quickly. I mean, Janemba had trouble tagging this absolute joke

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Now yes, it is stated that Veku was unpredictable and Janemba does tag him. It doesn't really matter because Veku wasn't even going sonic speed, which we know because of the art and because we are given a time frame. At first we are told that Veku might last the full 30 minutes

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Then we are told there are 10 more minutes. SO unless I am missing something, this means the battle lasted quite some time meaning they weren't going at some speedy pace.

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Janemba also gets blitzed by Gogeta easily.

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Not to mention, Mano only needs to tap your guys once, now you might ask about the invisibility, but Mothra has a prophecy ability which can be shared through psychic means.

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So in short, while I do not yet have complete knowledge on your team, I believe that Mano should be able to do a drive by and kill your team with hax they haven't encountered before. Even if Mano fails for some reason, Abra could transmute your characters into jack-in-the-boxes which Mano could certainly destroy (or you know, since Abra is faster than Manio he can do the jack-in-the-box thing first before Mano potentially fails).

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#9 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18964 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom:

Janemba

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Powers/abilities

  • Superhuman speed
  • Superhuman strength
  • Superhuman durability
  • Regeneration
  • Cloning
  • Dimensional manipulation
  • Matter manipulation
  • Teleportation
  • Telekinesis
  • Energy projection
  • Reality Warping(which I unfortunately can’t use)

Stats

Janemba is fast enough to react to this point blank blast from Goku, but not only does he react but he creates a clone of Goku that overpowered the real Goku’s attack. This is in his weakest form mind you.

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His strength and durability are great too. As shown when he one shots SSJ2 Vegeta and tanks hits from ssj3 Goku.

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  1. One shots ssj2 Vegeta, who at this time would be far more durable than Freiza(who no sold a planetary explosion while cut in half and near dead).
  2. Is barely phased by attacks from ssj3 Goku, who was powerful to shake the afterlife (a macrocosm as large as the universe) just by powering up.

The Thinker

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Powers/abilities

  • Superhuman intelligence
  • Technopathy
  • Telepathy
  • Dimensional manipulation
  • Elasticity
  • Effigy animation
  • Gravity manipulation
  • Jinxing
  • Size alteration
  • Sound manipulation
  • Shape shifting

Counters

Before I get into any counters I will point out that I have an hour of prep just like my opponent. The only thing I really am going to have done is have Janemba create as many clones as this tourney allows there to be at one time(ten).

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The best part is that because my invisibility perk is for Janemba, any clones he creates will be invisible too. This is confirmed y ET himself....

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...so even if you could defeat one or two normally(or even all of them) you have to prove you can even sense them. Though even if they were killed making more wouldn’t be hard for Janemba so it changes nothing.

With that out of the way let the counters begin.

Mano

First of all, let's talk about speed. Now, as you may have noticed Mano has the lightspeed perk which gives him lightspeed travel, reaction and combat speed, which should make him faster than your team (or at the very least much faster than Malekith).

Lightspeed? Try massively faster than light, because that’s what janemba is.As I shown Janemba could casually react to a point blank blast from Goku, who in a previous movie(where he was massively less powerful) had sent Cooler to another solar system with his kamehameha. We know it was another solar system as the Sun was shown to be just fine moments later after the star (destroyed by Cooler‘s attack)exploded. The closest star outside our solar system is a 4.244 lightyears away, meaning for Janemba to easily react to an attack that covers that distance in seconds would put his combat speed at MFTL in his base form. Even if you want to point out Goku was in his base form for his blast and not ssj like against Cooler (it would still be laughably FTL) it wouldn’t matter as Janemba has casually reacted to ssj3 Goku’s attacks as well.

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With the lightspeed perk Mano possesses and his incredibly powerful anti-matter hand, you'd be hard-pressed to avoid just getting dusted by Mano, Spidey style.

So basically I have to prove Janemba and his clones can react to a statue? Cause that’s what he is to them. Any of my invisible clones will one shot him, Janemba doesn’t even need to face him personally.

Abra Kadabra

The Flash Abra tagged was actually an alternate one called Walter West. One of the only guys in fiction who can be argued as faster than Wally, as evidenced by him blitzing and pinning Wally down.

Wally West was clearly caught off guard, like he was hugging Linda and everything. This isn’t a blitz at all.

As for transmutation, he is able to turn the Flash into light mid blitz, while saying that the Flash is lightspeed.

Based on the dialogue this can actually be quantified as him moving at lightspeed. Which if I haven’t made clear isn’t good enough to prove Janemba won’t one shot your team.

He can even react to two Flashes at the same time.

Awesome, unfortunately Jay doesn’t move FTL as you yourself admit in the previous round of this tourney. Wally looks to be moving relative to Jay, but even if I assume he moved much faster than Jay nothing implies he is moving at MFTL speeds comparable to Janemba.

In recent times he has even outright outsped Wally West, yes you heard that right. In case you missed it, it is actually outright stated by Wally himself.

Nice try mate. But in that same storyline it was established that because Rebirth Wally no longer has Linda as his lightning rod he can’t move faster than light without getting sucked into the speed force, Abra Kadabra himself states this.

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So yeah, there's no way you're going to out-cast this guy. Meaning we get the first strike, and with that advantage, Kadabra can do a thousand things to end the fight early.

Simply saying the name Wally West isn’t enough, I have yet to see proof Abra Kadabra can keep up with Janemba. Which is vital since I doubt you will argue he can tank survive a casual Star level+ blast from Janemba.

Starting with Kadabra's favourite feat, turning people into puppets.

He can also turn you into a jack-in-the-box

Or turn you into a tortoise

Abra Kadabra’s big thing is as you admitted transmutation/matter manipulation but the thing is Janemba has this too. Janemba should be more than capable of resisting if it came down to it or use his own on AB.

Also some of what he does is due to tech right? Well I would like bring up against that Thinker has technopathy, so if he gets the chance he could take over all of Thinker’s tech.

he can just puppet you anyway through magic. As he demonstrates here when he forces Barry to run, and Jay and Supes to freeze in running positions.

What hax is this? I mean, is he using TP or something?

Abra Kadabra is fast enough to react to and sometimes even toy with Flash, giving him a first mover's advantage.

I am willing to admit he is faster than Devoe and would beat him because of that. However Janemba and his clones are faster than Abra Kadabra is so he isn’t getting any attacks off at all without getting crushed by TK or vaporized. Hell, I can take this cloning thing a step further and remind you Janemba can create clones of others.

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This clone of Goku was able to perform the same technique Goku was using too, so his clone didn’t just only have Goku’s stats or anything.

With it he can instantly end the fight by way of transmutation, rapidly ageing you or just controlling your bodies to follow his command.

I disagree heavily, he has a speed advantage over only Thinker and not my powerhouse Janemba. He gets vaporized, crushed, blitzed and decapitated, or beaten by clones of himself.

Prep

My prep will be quite simple but deadly, which you can probably see is the overaching theme of my team. First things first, Abra will double the power of my team.

Wally later confirms the boost in power

Awesome.

Abra will also summon prehistoric giants

Devoe solos them. He one shots them with telepathy, crushes their internal organs with gravity manipulation, or hell just shrinksthem. His size alteration abilities have shrunk skyscrapers so prehistoric giants are nothing.

And he can conjure up those doppelganger Teen Titans too, since he made them the first time.

Janemba‘s clones stomp them.

Oh, and just to throw the possibility out there, Abra can also time jump 4,000 years in the future, meaning you'd need characters that could survive 4,000 years in a barren planet before the battle begins.

Self battle field removal

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So good idea, leaving would be an automatic win for me.

The Battle

so I looked at your past debates with them and watched the Dragon Ball movie Janemba

Somehow I doubt that but okay.

I also think that Mano could blitz both your characters to be done with this battle fairly quickly. I mean, Janemba had trouble tagging this absolute joke

Now yes, it is stated that Veku was unpredictable and Janemba does tag him. It doesn't really matter because Veku wasn't even going sonic speed, which we know because of the art and because we are given a time frame. At first we are told that Veku might last the full 30 minutes

Then we are told there are 10 more minutes. SO unless I am missing something, this means the battle lasted quite some time meaning they weren't going at some speedy pace.

This is the most awful lowball I have ever seen for Janemba. First of all, this is a gag scene so actually using this in a debate is dumb. Second, you can‘t go by animation to say they aren’t moving fast, that makes no sense. Visually Janemba and Veku didn’t look to be moving any faster than Goku’s fights with Freiza or Cell, but Janemba wouldn’t be slower than them since he fodderized characters way faster and more powerful.

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It would make no sense to think Janemba would be moving slower than the speed of sound, because not only do his feats put him above that, but that would make him even slower than kid Goku. Goku since he was a kid was trained to be even faster than lightning, and even dodged lightning as a result of his training.

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Freiza back in the namek saga was able to fire energy blasts that were appeared as nothing more than a flash of light to Piccolo....

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Yet Goku casually deflects attacks like this before he could even turn ssj.

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Even Master Roshi could effortlessly snatch bullets from machine guns out of the air back in DB, but by your amazing logic Janemba is lower than them both right? Despite fighting a version of Goku far faster than he was as a kid or on Namek I guess subsonic makes total sense right? The best part of your argument is that it ignores that Janemba was toying with Veku, absolutely stomping him when he wanted to with no trouble.

Janemba also gets blitzed by Gogeta easily.

So what? That’s a feat for Gogeta. If you’re wondering why he was able to do that while Vegeta and Goku got bodied it’s because of how strong fusion is. Goku has mentioned that the race that came up the technique were weak but when fused were really powerful.

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Gogeta himself stated recently that the technique doesn’t simply add their strength together but significantly magnifies it. Considering Goku and Vegata were some of the most powerful beings in the universe,I would say it’s not bad that a fusion of their power is enough to beat Janemba.

Not to mention, Mano only needs to tap your guys once, now you might ask about the invisibility, but Mothra has a prophecy ability which can be shared through psychic means.

I will point out that this incapacitated her by the looks of it, but it looks pretty useless as it wouldn’t tell Mano where Janemba is anyway. Though I will point out that Cisco has the ability to vibe and look into the future, and this is what happened when he tried to do it against the Thinker.

It won’t help you to do this, but even if you did it, Thinker could stop it.

I believe that Mano should be able to do a drive by and kill your team with hax they haven't encountered before

I don’t even think Mano can beat the Thinker tbh. His Jinxing would stop him the while he is in the act of blitzing Devoe.Just in case you want to see feats for it

1. Flash tried to go for putting power dampeners in CW Hazard(whose Jinxing Devoe stole) and ends up falling and cuffing himself.

2. Thinker makes Izzy’s guitar to break with his jinxing so she can’t hit him with a sonic attack.

I believe that Mano should be able to do a drive by and kill your team with hax they haven't encountered before. Even if Mano fails for some reason, Abra could transmute your characters into jack-in-the-boxes which Mano could certainly destroy (or you know, since Abra is faster than Manio he can do the jack-in-the-box thing first before Mano potentially fails).

And I disagree, I think Janemba casually solos your team with the utmost of ease. Everyone gets killed by a casual blast from Janemba the second this starts. I don’t think it changes anything but I will also point out that Devoe can reanimate the dead and control them, so if one or two characters died Thinker can use them to kill your other character.

Initial thoughts

Disgusting lowballing for speed aside, I have no doubt in my mind that your team gets absolutely fodderized. You have to prove you can deal with 11 mftl invisible beings all with at least star level+ energy projection just to prove you have a chance. I am not convinced that quantifiably Abra Kadabra is much faster than light, and Mano is only lightspeed at best so Janemba isn’t getting touched. Honestly this is how the battle goes.....

....and ends the second the fight begins.

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My team should win pretty easily honestly.

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#10 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18964 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking:

Counters:

Before I get into any counters I will point out that I have an hour of prep just like my opponent. The only thing I really am going to have done is have Janemba create as many clones as this tourney allows there to be at one time(ten).

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...so even if you could defeat one or two normally(or even all of them) you have to prove you can even sense them. Though even if they were killed making more wouldn’t be hard for Janemba so it changes nothing.

Those clones didn't seem to be all that tough to me, I mean base Goku fodderizes them (or I what I assume is base Goku)

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Lightspeed? Try massively faster than light, because that’s what janemba is.As I shown Janemba could casually react to a point blank blast from Goku, who in a previous movie(where he was massively less powerful) had sent Cooler to another solar system with his kamehameha. We know it was another solar system as the Sun was shown to be just fine moments later after the star (destroyed by Cooler‘s attack)exploded. The closest star outside our solar system is a 4.244 lightyears away,

First of all, this relies on the assumption that Goku's universe is exactly the same as ours because it could just be that his Earth is much closer to another Star than ours is (he does live in a universe of green aliens and other science fiction). Which is actually supported by the fact that we see the light from the star exploding on Earth, which means either light is faster than light in Goku's universe, or more logically, that wasn't an MFTL feat.

Here is my evidence for the above fact (I left the time codes in there just so you can see that this is chronological

Scan 1: Blast is shown leaving Earth

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Scan 2: The blast is seen approaching Earth

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Scan 3: The blast is seen from the Earth's surface

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Scan 4: The blast is subsiding (no time code cause I messed up)

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Scan 5: Blast subsides

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Also, that might have been our Sun, which is evidenced by the fact that in the English version, Cooler says

"It's the star of the solar system, maybe I'll just blow that up and stare, let them all freeze to death in darkness"

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And only our Sun would affect us that way. Now yes, that could be just the dub messing things up or whatever, but the fact still remains that we see the Sun (Goku's Sun) flicker off then back on again in the film.

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The video above shows that either A) Our Sun was the one Cooler landed on, meaning it was not on a different solar system and Goku didn't blow up a star. B) It was a different star system, but the blast was so great that the light from it eclipsed our own sun's light, which still means that the light from that blast made it to Earth in seconds meaning 4.24 lightyears is void.

meaning for Janemba to easily react to an attack that covers that distance in seconds would put his combat speed at MFTL in his base form. Even if you want to point out Goku was in his base form for his blast and not ssj like against Cooler (it would still be laughably FTL) it wouldn’t matter as Janemba has casually reacted to ssj3 Goku’s attacks as well.

See the problem is I don't know DBZ. I don't approach this from forms or power levels or scaling or anything like that. I just watch the scenes, and the scenes don't support the FTL idea cause we literally see light travelling the same distance as Goku's Kamehameha. Also, you cannot tell me that you think Goku's grenade thing was FTL as well, because feats from Kamehameha doesn't just transfer to it and visually it looks as fast as a soldier throwing a hand grenade.

So basically I have to prove Janemba and his clones can react to a statue? Cause that’s what he is to them.

And you still have to prove it cause I'm not convinced.

Any of my invisible clones will one shot him, Janemba doesn’t even need to face him personally.

Where did you get that idea? You didn't show Janemba's DC feats but I'll show you Mano's amped durability. Let's do this step by step, first, this is Mano's feat. In it he gets gobbled up by a sun eater.

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Yet we see him fine later and we get confirmation that no one is seriously hurt.

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This is impressive because first of all, that's a Sun-Eater, the name should make it obvious but also here is a scan describing what the Sun-Eater is.

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Now, Mano wasn't gobbled up by the entire Sun-Eater, just a part of it.

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But it's still impressive because even a part of the Sun-Eater could stagger Validus.

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For context, Validus is a pre-crisis team buster character. Superboy in this era could tow a galaxy with ease yet even he admits Validus is a dozen times more powerful. So yeah, Mano survived being gobbled up by a Star destroying entity that even while in pieces, could overpower a powerhouse like Validus who was the most powerful being in an era where Superboy had cartoon level strength. I doubt he will be one shot by a clone.

Wally West was clearly caught off guard, like he was hugging Linda and everything. This isn’t a blitz at all.

You can't catch a speedster off guard. They can switch to speed mode automatically after sensing danger.

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Meaning Walter Flash was so fast Wally couldn't even sense him, that's a blitz. They also had a serious exchange of blows where Wally was bested.

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Based on the dialogue this can actually be quantified as him moving at lightspeed. Which if I haven’t made clear isn’t good enough to prove Janemba won’t one shot your team.

You have not made it clear, also that isn't even the best feat I have shown.

nothing implies he is moving at MFTL speeds

I want you to remember this line. Because now I want you to prove that all Kamehame waves are equal in speed because I'm sure we can agree that they differ in power and as far as I know they can be controlled

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So what is there to imply that speed is a constant when every other variable can be altered based on the will and power of the user? What implies MFTL speed?

I can even show you this clip from the same movie the Kamehameha reaches a star that seems to prove that its speed varies

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Nice try mate. But in that same storyline it was established that because Rebirth Wally no longer has Linda as his lightning rod he can’t move faster than light without getting sucked into the speed force, Abra Kadabra himself states this.

I didn't say Rebirth Wally was FTL. So I don't know what you're debunking. Is this the first strawman in this debate?

Simply saying the name Wally West isn’t enough, I have yet to see proof Abra Kadabra can keep up with Janemba.

I ain't just saying Wally. I'm saying Abra was able to strike a bloodlusted Flash. This is his mindset during their fight.

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Now yes, Flash does tell Abra to strike him but that is only after Abra is able to tag him the first time.

Which is vital since I doubt you will argue he can tank survive a casual Star level+ blast from Janemba.

So where does this star level blast come from? You have not shown any feat near this level, heck you only showed feats for stats in your opener.

Abra Kadabra’s big thing is as you admitted transmutation/matter manipulation but the thing is Janemba has this too. Janemba should be more than capable of resisting if it came down to it or use his own on AB.

Having transmutation does not equate to being able to resist it.

Also some of what he does is due to tech right? Well I would like bring up against that Thinker has technopathy, so if he gets the chance he could take over all of Thinker’s tech.

Yes. However, you yourself admit that DeVoe will be defeated, and due to the nature of this battle being settled in quarter seconds, it means DeVoe will be a non-factor.

What hax is this? I mean, is he using TP or something?

I don't think so. The people seem to be consciously aware they are clapping they just can't stop. I would say this is just body control, since we do see Abra speeding up a person's ageing so he can control their biology.

I am willing to admit he is faster than Devoe and would beat him because of that. However Janemba and his clones are faster than Abra Kadabra is so he isn’t getting any attacks off at all without getting crushed by TK or vaporized. Hell, I can take this cloning thing a step further and remind you Janemba can create clones of others.

You already used up your clones on Janemba. Also if Janemba's clones of others just mirror what the original is doing then I fail to see how that helps out Janemba at all.

I disagree heavily, he has a speed advantage over only Thinker and not my powerhouse Janemba. He gets vaporized, crushed, blitzed and decapitated, or beaten by clones of himself.

You can disagree all you want. But if you want to play the scaling game, Abra can scale to Wally and Walter, all you can do is scale to Goku's Kamehameha (it should be easy to tell which is faster). Or if you want to be quantifiable, Mano is lightspeed cause of the perk, while Janembe isn't anywhere close based on his own quantifiable feats. Either way, I fail to see how you can claim a speed advantage.

Self battle field removal

Under logical circumstances, I would say that it isn't. A battlefield is simple the location of battle and since I am merely jumping forwards in time (which is explicitly allowed) and not location, it would not count as leaving the battlefield. So under a normal interpretation of the rules, I would say that what I am doing isn't explicitly barred. However, since ET ruled in a Pm after this match started that it won't be allowed, I will not do it. But I will point out to readers that under the stated rules, I did not break any rules.

This is the most awful lowball I have ever seen for Janemba.

You think I lowball him but I think you high ball him. I come from a standpoint of no previous knowledge on the character, so I have no biases or prior knowledge that may interfere with my interpretations of what I am viewing. In short, I am just calling it how I see it.

First of all, this is a gag scene so actually using this in a debate is dumb.

I don't see the logic as to why. Yes, it is a low showing for Janemba. But seeing as how you have shown a grand total of 1 feat which you claim somehow makes Janemba MFTL, I think my one low-end feat counters it nicely.

Second, you can‘t go by animation to say they aren’t moving fast, that makes no sense.

Going by what we literally see makes no sense?

Visually Janemba and Veku didn’t look to be moving any faster than Goku’s fights with Freiza or Cell, but Janemba wouldn’t be slower than them since he fodderized characters way faster and more powerful.

So what about the time range we are given?

"

At first, we are told that Veku might last the full 30 minutes

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Then we are told there are 10 more minutes. SO unless I am missing something, this means the battle lasted quite some time meaning they weren't going at some speedy pace.

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"

This proves things are going slower than real time or are going by real-time (by that I mean the run time of the movie).

Janemba wouldn’t be slower than them since he fodderized characters way faster and more powerful.

Most comic book team busters like Thanos, Darkseid, Despero etc. fodderized characters faster than them, doesn't mean squat.

It would make no sense to think Janemba would be moving slower than the speed of sound, because not only do his feats put him above that, but that would make him even slower than kid Goku. Goku since he was a kid was trained to be even faster than lightning, and even dodged lightning as a result of his training.

Freiza back in the namek saga was able to fire energy blasts that were appeared as nothing more than a flash of light to Piccolo....

Yet Goku casually deflects attacks like this before he could even turn ssj.

Even Master Roshi could effortlessly snatch bullets from machine guns out of the air back in DB, but by your amazing logic Janemba is lower than them both right? Despite fighting a version of Goku far faster than he was as a kid or on Namek I guess subsonic makes total sense right

First and foremost, you are trying to use a strawman. My statement was

"Veku wasn't even going sonic speed"

Yet you are arguing that Janemba isn't subsonic., which I never stated. I merely insinuated the question that if a character, who we don't even see break the sound barrier, could give Janemba trouble how can Janemba be MFTL?

Also, those feats are for Goku, so prove that Goku was fighting at high speeds against Janemba.

Even Master Roshi could effortlessly snatch bullets from machine guns out of the air back in DB, but by your amazing logic Janemba is lower than them both right? Despite fighting a version of Goku far faster than he was as a kid or on Namek I guess subsonic makes total sense right?

I can kinda see what you are doing. Not sure if it is intentional or not. But you are trying to make my "argument" (quotes because it's actually based on your strawman) seem as ridiculous as possible so that voters would discredit it and would be more likely to belive MFTL Janemba. However, if you are attempting to play the mind games then I must point out to everyone, that this tactic is only smoke and mirrors. If my opponent could prove that Janemba is actually MFTL then he wouldn't have to resort to such tactics, but the issue is that there is no solid evidence out there that can unquestionably place Janemba at the level of speed that my opponent wants him to be.

The best part of your argument is that it ignores that Janemba was toying with Veku, absolutely stomping him when he wanted to with no trouble.

This is nothing more than a confession that it is in-character for Janemba to toy with his opponents. Speed means squat if you aren't using it, and you admit that there are times where Janemba will not use his speed and will instead toy with his opponent. So tell me, why would Janemba go all out in this battle?

So what? That’s a feat for Gogeta. If you’re wondering why he was able to do that while Vegeta and Goku got bodied it’s because of how strong fusion is. Goku has mentioned that the race that came up the technique were weak but when fused were really powerful.

Gogeta himself stated recently that the technique doesn’t simply add their strength together but significantly magnifies their it. Considering Goku and Vegata were some of the most powerful beings in the universe,I would say it’s not bad that a fusion of their power is enough to beat Janemba.

The point of the scan was just to show that even in Janemba's brief time he was a threat, he was blitzed. Nothing meant to downplay him.

I will point out that this incapacitated her by the looks of it, but it looks pretty useless as it wouldn’t tell Mano where Janemba is anyway. Though I will point out that Cisco has the ability to vibe and look into the future, and this is what happened when he tried to do it against the Thinker.

We could just do it during prep. The scan shows that Mothra can point out threats so it should be usuelfulaaginst invisible ones.

It won’t help you to do this, but even if you did it, Thinker could stop it.

The nature of Mothra and Cisco's powers are different, one is science and the other is psychic magic.

I don’t even think Mano can beat the Thinker tbh. His Jinxing would stop him the while he is in the act of blitzing Devoe.Just in case you want to see feats for it

There is no evidence this would work against a lightspeed attack. Unless DeVoe can make objects move lightspeed or stop Mano from even accelerating.

And I disagree, I think Janemba casually solos your team with the utmost of ease. Everyone gets killed by a casual blast from Janemba the second this starts. I don’t think it changes anything but I will also point out that Devoe can reanimate the dead and control them, so if one or two characters died Thinker can use them to kill your other character.

The Thinker is really not a factor here, either of my characters would destroy him in the time it takes for him to blink.

Disgusting lowballing for speed aside, I have no doubt in my mind that your team gets absolutely fodderized. You have to prove you can deal with 11 mftl invisible beings all with at least star level+ energy projection just to prove you have a chance. I am not convinced that quantifiably Abra Kadabra is much faster than light, and Mano is only lightspeed at best so Janemba isn’t getting touched. Honestly this is how the battle goes.....

I like it. Confidence, stating your headcanon as if we get to see it on screen. They say confidence is a really good way of convincing people. But let us not forget that this statement

11 mftl invisible beings all with at least star level+ energy projection

Assumes that those beings are MFTL and have star level+ energy projection, both are yet to be proved. Let us not forget the numerous flaws in your evidence for the Kamehameha wave being MFTL to begin with, so you are using flawed evidence to fuel your extravagant scaling to prove that your guy is fast. And unless I missed it, the only star level feat here was Goku's.

Conclusion

As of right now, nothing changes. I feel as though my counters and claims are more careful and well substantiated, there is an extreme difference in views here but I believe that I have been able to better explain mine. This debate reminds me of my R1 debate, since my team's premise was to go for the quick kill the only way to counter would be to resist all my hax or to strike before my hax can, and like my opponent before me, you choose to focus on speed (hinting that you cannot resist every form of hax I have shown) and like my opponent before you, you rely heavily on scaling which I debunked. While in this case, I am out of my element, I believe that my team still holds the edge.

Good luck to you in the next round of posting.

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#12 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18964 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom:

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Counters

Pretty sure you can only have 10 clones total, meaning after your clones die more cannot be made. I'm going to PM ET to confirm this, will edit his response in here when he responds.

As ET confirmed you were incorrect.

Those clones didn't seem to be all that tough to me, I mean base Goku fodderizes them (or I what I assume is base Goku)

Well first of all, base Goku is above everyone on your team so them being beaten doesn’t make them weak. Second,it’s important to keep in mind in his fat form he was only playing with Goku, in his final form he was trying was more serious and focused on killing people. The fact that he made even stronger clones after this( the one that overpowered Goku) means he obviously can make stronger ones when he wants to. Third, he is in his final form for this debate, meaning his clones will be of his stronger form than his fat form.

First of all, this relies on the assumption that Goku's universe is exactly the same as ours because it could just be that his Earth is much closer to another Star than ours is (he does live in a universe of green aliens and other science fiction).

Don’t give me speculation on a series that you know nothing about. Prove to me that the DB universe has stars closer to Earth than in the real world otherwise it’s an awful argument to make. I could just as easily claim that stars in DB are even farther than they are in the real world from Earth but if I can’t prove it then it’s pointless to say.

Which is actually supported by the fact that we see the light from the star exploding on Earth, which means either light is faster than light in Goku's universe, or more logically, that wasn't an MFTL feat.

This is pretty much just blatant nitpicking, by this logic it can’t be Earth’s Sun either then. Why? Because as everyone knows it takes over 8 minutes to reach Earth yet the explosion reached Earth instantly.

The people directing the movie wouldn’t have been thinking this much into the scene when making it.

Also, that might have been our Sun, which is evidenced by the fact that in the English version, Cooler says

"It's the star of the solar system, maybe I'll just blow that up and stare, let them all freeze to death in darkness"

Which is why I shown the Japanese dub, the only version of the movie that is actually canon. In the subs you clearly can see he makes no mention of it being Earth’s Sun.....

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Going by English dubs Broly shattered a galaxy, so I guess Janemba is Galaxy level?

The video above shows that either A) Our Sun was the one Cooler landed on, meaning it was not on a different solar system and Goku didn't blow up a star.

It clearly blew up, so this isn’t the case.

B) It was a different star system, but the blast was so great that the light from it eclipsed our own sun's light, which still means that the light from that blast made it to Earth in seconds meaning 4.24 lightyears is void.

I would like to point out the 4.24 lightyears thing was just the distance between earth and the closest star aside from the sun. It could have been a different star but crossing that distance in seconds is the lowest it could be. And as I said before, it could just mean the star was big enough to produce an explosion that could get that close to the earth.

Regardless this is nitpicking, we know that it wasn’t the Sun and the star blew up. There is no need to do all this mental gymnastics to over complicate what is a very straightforward feat.

See the problem is I don't know DBZ. I don't approach this from forms or power levels or scaling or anything like that. I just watch the scenes, and the scenes don't support the FTL

Even if it was our Sun, it takes light eight minutes to reach earth so the feat is FTL no matter how much you lowball it.

Also, you cannot tell me that you think Goku's grenade thing was FTL as well, because feats from Kamehameha doesn't just transfer to it and visually it looks as fast as a soldier throwing a hand grenade.

Grenade thing? Lol, you mean his Ki blast? The kamehameha is just a ki based attack just like a standard energy blast, it isn’t going to move slower than his blast against Cooler did.

And you still have to prove it cause I'm not convinced.

You not being convinced=/= I haven’t given proof.

And unless I missed it, the only star level feat here was Goku's,

First of all, Cooler’s attack blew up the star. Second, even if Goku did blew it up Janemba would scale above him. Cooler, despite being a star buster couldn’t make Goku flinch with his blasts. Yet Janemba severally injured Goku as a ssj3, despite being massively stronger than he was against Cooler.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

If this isn’t enough for you that’s okay. Janemba also scales off of Broly, a super saiyan whose most infamous feat is wiping out an entire South Galaxy over time.

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To do this Broly would have to be at least Large Star-Multi Solar system level in terms of output because of how big a Galaxy is. Even though it would be closer to the latter(Multi Solar system level+) even if I lowball it to Solar System level it’s more than enough. And remember Janemba is far above the likes of Broly or any movie villian before him, so saying Janemba is at least Solar system level+ is pretty fair.

This also supports Janemba’s speed as there is no way Broly could have ever done this without at least being massively faster than the speed of light.

You didn't show Janemba's DC feats but I'll show you Mano's amped durability. Let's do this step by step, first, this is Mano's feat. In it he gets gobbled up by a sun eater.

As you admitted this is an amped Mano, making the feat unusable as far as I am concerned. I am aware that your plan was to have Abra Kadabra double his power during your prep but based on the dialogue in the comic it would seem the amp was more than a measly 2x amp for them.

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The anti matter that was amping the people was said to be so potent it even worked on people like Superboy, despite normally being invulnerable to it.

I fail to see why you think it’s okay to use this feat but I digress.

But it's still impressive because even a part of the Sun-Eater could stagger Validus.

It was said in the same scan that it was lashing out “planet splitting force”, which was comparable to the “equally devastating power of Validus“.

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And it seems to me he was staggering from exhaustion.

So yeah, Mano survived being gobbled up by a Star destroying entity that even while in pieces, could overpower a powerhouse like Validus who was the most powerful being in an era where Superboy had cartoon level strength. I doubt he will be one shot by a clone.

It destroys star while whole, which it wasn’t. And this is Mano with an amp seemingly greater than what he can get from Abra Kadabra, so it’s not an applicable feat. Though I would also like to point out it was stated several times and made quite clear Validus was by far the strongest of the team.

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How does it at all make sense to try to scale Mano to him? They are clearly on two different levels, and it’s not like Validus didn’t put up a far better fight than Mano did.

This feat hasn’t changed anything, any of Janemba‘s clones solo him.

You can't catch a speedster off guard. They can switch to speed mode automatically after sensing danger.

“But sometimes my speed will kick in automatically, under duress or when I am in danger.”

Can’t catch a speedster off guard=/= it’s very difficult to do it. The key word in that statement Wally made is sometimes, which means at times or occasionally. Basically, his speed mode doesn’t always kick in when he is in danger and thus your statement that you absolutely can’t catch a speedster off guard is objectively false.

Meaning Walter Flash was so fast Wally couldn't even sense him, that's a blitz.

No, he was caught off guard. That’s not a blitz.

They also had a serious exchange of blows where Wally was bested.

I am willing to admit he was comparable to Wally(never claimed he wasn’t),but the whole time Wally was trying to protect Linda while Walter was attacking angrily.

You have not made it clear, also that isn't even the best feat I have shown.

It’s your best quantifiable feat by far, although I never said it was the best feat you gave. By scales Abra is FTL but I wouldn’t say he is MFTL based on what you have given.

Because now I want you to prove that all Kamehame waves are equal in speed because I'm sure we can agree that they differ in power and as far as I know they can be controlled

Ki attacks in DB move faster the more powerful you are. So like in the example you shown beginning of DBZ Goku’s Kamehameha would be no where near Goku’s Kamehameha from Cooler’s Revenge in speed.

So what is there to imply that speed is a constant when every other variable can be altered based on the will and power of the user? What implies MFTL speed?

If you mean in the example you’re showing nothing, as Goku in his fight with Raditz wasn’t even as fast as the speed of light let alone massively faster than it. If you mean in general, it depends on how much power is put into the attack. A full powered blast from SSJ3 Goku would be faster than a full powered blast from SSJ for example.

I can even show you this clip from the same movie the Kamehameha reaches a star that seems to prove that its speed varies

Bad example, this is a non serious Goku in his base. He wasn’t in his ssj form at his mad pushing himself to make sure Cooler’s attack didn’t blow up the planet. It is quite obvious that Goku while barely trying in his base would be significantly slower than a ssj Goku that is completely serious. Not only that but I want to point out that Goku would have been far stronger than he was at the beginning of the movie even in his base. One thing about saiyans is that whenever they reach the brink of death and recover they experience a significant increase in power called a zenkai boost. Cooler had blasted Goku(who was protecting Gohan) and got seriously injured, but later recovered upon eating a senzu bean. Goku when he fought Cooler=/= Goku prior to being blasted by Cooler, no matter how you spin it this doesn’t debunk my argument for Janemba‘s speed.

I didn't say Rebirth Wally was FTL. So I don't know what you're debunking. Is this the first strawman in this debate?

Please quote where I said you claimed Rebirth Wally was FTL. I merely addressed why this feat against Rebirth Wally isn’t impressive to me, simply because he is Flash and named “Wally West” doesn’t make it an impressive speed feat.

I ain't just saying Wally. I'm saying Abra was able to strike a bloodlusted Flash. This is his mindset during their fight.

And how fast was Walter moving? I don’t think this could be quantified at all. And I would like to point out that Wally moved faster than Abra could react (before he could cast a spell) when he once dressed up as Professor Zoom.

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If you want to argue Walter>=Wally that’s fine. But if Wally can move faster than Abra can react then Walter either isn’t moving as fast as he can(making it unquantifiable)or Walter being as fast/faster than Wally isn’t truly the case.

So where does this star level blast come from? You have not shown any feat near this level, heck you only showed feats for stats in your opener.

I already gone over this, Janemba scales off Cooler who’s attack blew up a star. He also scales off Broly who destroyed an entire Galaxy over time. Janemba being Large Star-Solar System level+ is very generous if I am being honest.

Having transmutation does not equate to being able to resist it.

Him having transmutation does mean he should be able to resist it. Janemba isn’t someone who relies on tech for his abilities, or needs to do magical spells. His transmutation is completely under his own power, so I see no reason to think he can’t resist it. By this logic, a universal reality warping could be beaten by a city level one because being able to warp existence doesn’t give you the power to resist being warped yourself. It’s illogical and no one would argue that, and the same should be the case here.

Yes. However, you yourself admit that DeVoe will be defeated, and due to the nature of this battle being settled in quarter seconds, it means DeVoe will be a non-factor.

I also made it clear I believe Janemba and his clones curbstomp your team, DeVoe will not get a chance to be taken out. Though if he were to it be no big deal honestly.

I don't think so. The people seem to be consciously aware they are clapping they just can't stop.

You can force people to do that with TP.

You already used up your clones on Janemba. Also if Janemba's clones of others just mirror what the original is doing then I fail to see how that helps out Janemba at all.

If any of Janemba‘s clones are taken down he can do this.

You can disagree all you want. But if you want to play the scaling game, Abra can scale to Wally and Walter, all you can do is scale to Goku's Kamehameha (it should be easy to tell which is faster).

Agreed, quantifably speaking the answer is clear.

Or if you want to be quantifiable, Mano is lightspeed cause of the perk, while Janembe isn't anywhere close based on his own quantifiable feats. Either way, I fail to see how you can claim a speed advantage.

Except no matter how you spin it Janemba’s FTL, you claim the blast sent Cooler to the sun and not another Solar system but that is still a FTL feat regardless. It takes light eight minutes to reach Earth, and yet according to you Cooler was sent to the Sun in what we know was at best a few seconds.

No matter how much you lowball it you still get that Janemba is casually FTL-MFTL in his weakest form.

Under logical circumstances, I would say that it isn't. A battlefield is simple the location of battle and since I am merely jumping forwards in time (which is explicitly allowed) and not location, it would not count as leaving the battlefield. So under a normal interpretation of the rules, I would say that what I am doing isn't explicitly barred. However, since ET ruled in a Pm after this match started that it won't be allowed, I will not do it. But I will point out to readers that under the stated rules, I did not break any rules.

Awesome

You think I lowball him but I think you high ball him. I come from a standpoint of no previous knowledge on the character, so I have no biases or prior knowledge that may interfere with my interpretations of what I am viewing.

You having no prior knowledge on him doesn’t mean you are without bias. The fact that you need to beat me in this debate to advance means you do have reasons to be biased in how you interpret feats. Whether you are letting that cloud your judgment or not I can’t say, but don’t imply you are 100% objective in this because you aren’t.

I don't see the logic as to why. Yes, it is a low showing for Janemba. But seeing as how you have shown a grand total of 1 feat which you claim somehow makes Janemba MFTL, I think my one low-end feat counters it nicely.

You don’t see why using a gag moment makes for an awful argument? So what if you were debating against Saitama and brought up how he couldn’t catch a mosquito to debunk his casual mhs speed feats?

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Obviously this wouldn’t be taken seriously, because it’s a gag scene. It isn’t meant to be take seriously, and doesn’t line up with what has been shown is consistent for him. And while yes, Janemba has that feat as his best, he does scale off Goku who has been faster than lightning since he was a child. To imply Janemba isn’t even supersonic is ridiculous.

Going by what we literally see makes no sense?

I said going by animation speed as a way to say he is slow makes no sense. Animation speeds aren’t always consistent with the speeds we know the characters to be, just look at my Saitama example again. Here is Saitama, a man with tons of superhuman speed feats, incapable of tagging a mosquito(something normal humans can do) while literally making afterimages with his speed. By animation speed he is moving fast, but in context he clearly isn’t and I would say the animation speeds for his movements aren’t what we would go off of for saying how fast he is moving. And like, in the same movie Trunks and Goten were effortlessly dodging bullets while fighting hitler, but they looked to be moving no faster than Veku, so are they too moving at subsonic speeds?

So what about the time range we are given?

"

At first, we are told that Veku might last the full 30 minutes

Then we are told there are 10 more minutes. SO unless I am missing something, this means the battle lasted quite some time meaning they weren't going at some speedy pace.

This whole sequence was a gag scene, just because we know how long it lasted doesn’t change that. But regardless how does knowing how long this took place disprove anything? You need to know more than just how long a fight lasts to know how fast someone is moving.

Most comic book team busters like Thanos, Darkseid, Despero etc. fodderized characters faster than them, doesn't mean squat.

Janemba isn’t a comic teambuster, he is an anime teambuster and in dbz characters that doesn’t really happen. Janemba even in his fat form was capable of stopping blitzes from Goku and kept up with ssj3 Goku in his final form.

First and foremost, you are trying to use a strawman. My statement was

"Veku wasn't even going sonic speed"

Yet you are arguing that Janemba isn't subsonic., which I never stated. I merely insinuated the question that if a character, who we don't even see break the sound barrier, could give Janemba trouble how can Janemba be MFTL?

Which is just as dumb, your argument is because Veku didn’t visibly create a sonic boom he is subsonic. And because of that brilliant argumen that means Janemba can’t be mftl. That doesn’t make sense because I have already shown you that Goku as a child surpasses the speed of lightning. There is no proof that Veku is subsonic in speed, saying “he didn’t create a sonic boom so he is subsonic” is objectively not a good argument.

But it gets even worse....

This is nothing more than a confession that it is in-character for Janemba to toy with his opponents. Speed means squat if you aren't using it, and you admit that there are times where Janemba will not use his speed and will instead toy with his opponent. So tell me, why would Janemba go all out in this battle?

Nice job deflecting the issue here but the fact that he was toying with Veku means this isn’t even a valid “low end feat” even if you want to ignore that this was a gagscene. Regardless,Super Janemba only toyed with Veku in the movie. As soon as he transformed into his final form against Goku he was deadly serious and immediately one shot people like Vegeta and Pikkon. He only toyed with Veku when he realized this obese Man tripping over himself and farting everywhere was actually challenging him to a fight.

He didn’t toy with Goku, Vegeta, Pikkon, or Gogeta so yeah I can safely say unless your characters act like Veku he isn’t playing around here either.

I can kinda see what you are doing. Not sure if it is intentional or not. But you are trying to make my "argument" (quotes because it's actually based on your strawman) seem as ridiculous as possible so that voters would discredit it and would be more likely to belive MFTL Janemba.

No, what I am doing is pointing out that your argument is beyond ridiculous and relies on a gag scene. Pointing this out to the voters as a way to make me seem deceitful won’t save you from the bad arguments you have already made.

However, if you are attempting to play the mind games then I must point out to everyone, that this tactic is only smoke and mirrors.

As is what you’re doing.

If my opponent could prove that Janemba is actually MFTL then he wouldn't have to resort to such tactics, but the issue is that there is no solid evidence out there that can unquestionably place Janemba at the level of speed that my opponent wants him to be.

Except there is. My opponent‘s entire argument against it is based on a gag scene(where Veku didn’t create a sonic boom making him subsonic somehow)and even then he didn’t deny the fact that Janemba was toying with Veku there. Like, he was even shown letting Veku run away from him and casually walking after him, finding Veku hiding. Janemba didn’t take Veku seriously at all.

The point of the scan was just to show that even in Janemba's brief time he was a threat, he was blitzed. Nothing meant to downplay him.

So what???

We could just do it during prep. The scan shows that Mothra can point out threats so it should be usuelfulaaginst invisible ones.

I see you ignored the fact that it knocked out the person it was used on, meaning Mothra is going to one shot one of the characters on your team for me(unless you can prove that won’t happen with your characters). And the fact is that it only showed what the threats look like, which is pretty useful considering you can’tsee Janemba. This will not help you, it won’t tell you where Janemba is or even where his clones are.

This is useless.

The nature of Mothra and Cisco's powers are different, one is science and the other is psychic magic.

And???

There is no evidence this would work against a lightspeed attack. Unless DeVoe can make objects move lightspeed or stop Mano from even accelerating.

That’s not how his power works, he doesn’t have to personally make certain objects move like it’s TK or something. He has a bit of a good luck field, this can cause pretty much anything to happen to Mano if he tried to do something to DeVoe. The only way this was really bypassed in the show was by Thinker knowing how to temporarily turn Hazard’s powers off and steal her powers, which unfortunately your characters don’t know how to do.

I am not saying it’s unstoppable but a speedy foe like Mano(due to the lightspeed perk) will likely end up tripping and falling like Flash always ends up doing when faced with Jinxing. Which would allow Thinker to one shot with TP.

The Thinker is really not a factor here, either of my characters would destroy him in the time it takes for him to blink.

Killing him sounds like a good idea....until you realize that he has the ability to do this.He will be reincarnated into any technology close by, which just happens to be something Abra Kadabra has.Nothing would stop him att that point from taking over Abra Kadabra‘s tech and killing him and/or Mano. It was also shown that he can still access his other powers when this is done, as shown when he increased the mass of a satellite by a thousand fold with his gravity manipulation. So he could crush their lungs with that, or one shot them with TP as I saw no TP resistance for either of them. Heck, if they have no TP resistance then DeVoe can put mental blocks on their powers like he did to Killer Frost.

Though it it hardly matters I guess since Janemba will stomp your team before they realize the battle as even started.

This debate reminds me of my R1 debate, since my team's premise was to go for the quick kill the only way to counter would be to resist all my hax or to strike before my hax can, and like my opponent before me, you choose to focus on speed (hinting that you cannot resist every form of hax I have shown) and like my opponent before you, you rely heavily on scaling which I debunked.

And there is where you are wrong. I don’t think your team has what it takes to bring down Janemba, quite frankly I merely don’t think your team of statues will be able to do anything before Janemba obliterated them. And unlike your opponent you faced previously, you failed to debunk a single thing, instead relying on mental gymnastics and headcanon.

Summary

  • Quite frankly nothing has changed my mind that Janemba absolutely curbstomps your team.
  • I have seen no proof that anyone can survive a Large Star-Solar System lvl+ blast from Janemba.
  • No One is faster here than he is, quantifiably speaking or by scaling.
  • I see no reason to think Janemba can’t resist transmutation.
  • DeVoe can definitely help, should he be killed he will be reincarnated into AK’s tech and that’s where the real fun begins.
  • My opponents argument for Janemba being slower than his team is quite frankly ridiculous. First it relies on the events in a gag scene, which makes it unusable. But even worse is his reasoning that because Veku hasn’t been shown breaking the sound barrier in that gag scene he is subsonic, making Janemba’s mftl speed questionable. However as I have proven characters have been faster than lightning since DB, something he didn’t actually attempt to dispute. And to top it off, I proven Janemba was only toying with Veku(in that same gag scene) and my opponent deflected the fact that this debunks his whole argument, instead trying to say that means Janemba doesn’t use his speed well and will play around here.
  • I also would like to point out even if I lowballed Janemba’s speed to below that of a human’s it wouldn’t change anything as he is invisible. My opponent gave a very weak counter for this, being that Mothra can give prophesies of the future. Even ignoring the fact that it knocked out the person he used it on, it would still be worthless because even if Mothra did that here how does that change anything? They don’t know where Janemba is, or any of his clones. If it is showing a future threat would they even see anything considering (again) my invisibility perk? I fail to see why this is in the least helpful.
  • As far as I see it, the gif I shown in my opener still sums up how this entire battle goes. They can’t survive an attack on the scale Janemba dishes out, they aren’t as fast as he is, and can’t see him due to my perk. It would be insane to think Janemba can’t dish out a casual Large star level blast and vaporize my opponent‘s team
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#16 Posted by emperorthanos- (16898 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: What the heck, it's already been 12 days. I'll try to finish this up soon.

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#18 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18964 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: congrats on becoming a mod btw

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#19 Posted by emperorthanos- (16898 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by geekryan (6198 posts) - - Show Bio

My vote goes to @major_hellstrom.

He had many more feats, and better feats. His arguments were good and he countered most of what was thrown at him.

Both participants heavily relied on lowballing and scaling though.

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#22 Posted by greenroost (1381 posts) - - Show Bio

what is this?

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#23 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18964 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan said:

My vote goes to @major_hellstrom.

He had many more feats, and better feats. His arguments were good and he countered most of what was thrown at him.

Both participants heavily relied on lowballing and scaling though.

Mind elaborating? You didn’t really explain your reason for voting for him. What was the lowball and what was wrong with the scaling presented?

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#24 Posted by XLR87T3 (10394 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by Darthjhawk (55 posts) - - Show Bio

I’ll be voting for @thewatcherking here. Mainly he convinced me of two major things:

  • Janemba was an all around superior opponent.
  • Devoe could still be useful even if he was killed in the cross fire

From what I could tell it seems Major Hellstrom had to go through alot of hoops and reaching in order to equate his teams to Janemba. And while he did make a good case, it wasn’t enough to convince me that his team could well and truly matchup in either power or versatility. It felt like a watcher had counters to just about everything he put out. Good debate but I think Watcher takes it.

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#26 Posted by emperorthanos- (16898 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3 said:

@thewatcherking: Prove Janemba is more powerful than GT Broly. He isn't.

I'm voting for @major_hellstrom.

OK so you are clearly biased here. I'm not counting your vote.

Also there is no such thing as GT Broly.

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#27 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18964 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3 said:

@thewatcherking: Prove Janemba is more powerful than GT Broly. He isn't.

I'm voting for @major_hellstrom.

This Isn’t a vote ... your opinion about who is stronger between them( which is factually wrong) isn’t what you decide a winner based on. You go by what is presented, what you said wasn’t presented by my opponent.

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#28 Posted by geekryan (6198 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3 said:

@thewatcherking: Prove Janemba is more powerful than GT Broly. He isn't.

I'm voting for @major_hellstrom.

This Isn’t a vote ... your opinion about who is stronger between them( which is factually wrong) isn’t what you decide a winner based on. You go by what is presented, what you said wasn’t presented by my opponent.

Ha. Ironic.

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#29 Posted by ProfessorRespect (8902 posts) - - Show Bio

I’ll be voting for @thewatcherking here. Mainly he convinced me of two major things:

  • Janemba was an all around superior opponent.
  • Devoe could still be useful even if he was killed in the cross fire

From what I could tell it seems Major Hellstrom had to go through alot of hoops and reaching in order to equate his teams to Janemba. And while he did make a good case, it wasn’t enough to convince me that his team could well and truly matchup in either power or versatility. It felt like a watcher had counters to just about everything he put out. Good debate but I think Watcher takes it.

Usually I don't quote full posts about voting (I find it pretty lazy for the most part) but considering I don't know most of the characters here outside of the information delivered in the debate itself, this sums up my views on the debate pretty well. I like how Watcher used both of his characters here (usually most debaters will focus on their big gun only in matchups like these) and I felt like Watcher's counters just edged out Hellstrom in terms of quality, convincing me his team could win and that they overall had superior stats.

Hellstrom's team was solid and would've worked wonders against most other teams, but Watcher had a good foundation to win with here. Both did well.

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#30 Posted by emperorthanos- (16898 posts) - - Show Bio

Major: 1

Watcher: 2

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#31 Posted by vsw (2969 posts) - - Show Bio

Ill give this a thourough break down in a day or so. Bump me if i don't.

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#33 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18964 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by XLR87T3 (10394 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3 said:

@thewatcherking: Prove Janemba is more powerful than GT Broly. He isn't.

I'm voting for @major_hellstrom.

This Isn’t a vote ... your opinion about who is stronger between them( which is factually wrong) isn’t what you decide a winner based on. You go by what is presented, what you said wasn’t presented by my opponent.

You didn't present much, except piss poor scaling. MH presented more and had better counters, nor did he have to rely on scaling and out-of-context scans and videos (the "correct context" is that GT in no way, shape, or form scales to Main Dragonball universe).

@emperorthanos- Please add my vote, I've explained the reasoning, regardless if people agree with it or not

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#35 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18964 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: I try not to argue with voters but I will make an exception.First of all,GT quite literally has nothing to do with this, at all. Broly and Janemba don’t appear in GT, they appear in the original 13 DB movies. Second, GT while non canon most certainly would scale off DBZ, as all the events prior to GT are canon to GT. The events in the main series are also canon to the movies, it’s simply not true vice versa.

I will say nothing further than this but you’re wrong in regards to my arguments being out of context.

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#37 Posted by XLR87T3 (10394 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: GT is essentially fan fiction, and doesn't exist. Its based on the canon DBZ, but in no way is it canon. Broly is a GT movie villain, which is even less canon than the fanfic show. Janemba is a movie villain taking place on the original main DBZ verse, who fought the original DBZ Goku.

There's no way to scale the two without actual feats, and Broly is the only one with feats worth mentioning.

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#38 Posted by emperorthanos- (16898 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: Ok what on Earth are you talking about? Broly never appeared in GT. All of Brolys movies cane out during DBZ and before the Janemba novie. Janemba fought a much stronger version of the Goku Broly fought.

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#40 Posted by DeathHero61 (18876 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: @emperorthanos-@thewatcherking

Ok so this was an interesting debate, with both participants having their ups and downs, especially as someone who doesn't know the comic books guys and outright despises DBZ in basically every aspect (that's a rant for a entirely different day).

For Hellstorm, the main thing I was convinced of was that Janemba would be put down by his hax (I for one never really like the idea of 'because you can use power you can resist it', so whilst admittedly a little bit biased, that part won me over), but jeez that Veku part practically single handily crashed and burned my faith in what you were saying, for reasons Watcher clearly exploited.

As for Watcher, he most certainly had the physicals on lockdown, with an excellent teardown of the speed argument, and was able to debunk quite a lot of what Hellstorm had to offer, keeping the one-shot train on track.

So ultimately, I felt @thewatcherking had the more solid showing and conviced me more that the blitz would happen before the hax fiesta, so my vote goes to him.

I’ll be voting for @thewatcherking here. Mainly he convinced me of two major things:

  • Janemba was an all around superior opponent.
  • Devoe could still be useful even if he was killed in the cross fire

From what I could tell it seems Major Hellstrom had to go through alot of hoops and reaching in order to equate his teams to Janemba. And while he did make a good case, it wasn’t enough to convince me that his team could well and truly matchup in either power or versatility. It felt like a watcher had counters to just about everything he put out. Good debate but I think Watcher takes it.

These summarized my thoughts, the whole debacle with Veku was ridiculous. We literally just went over this kind of lowballing in the Asura vs Hulk All Star CAV between HigherPower and TheDailyBagel

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#41 Posted by DeathHero61 (18876 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll put my own detailed vote later on to elaborate on my thoughts.

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#42 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

I just want to say, I didn't know this was due for voting now. I was going to counter Watcher's today. Now I feel like a doofus but oh well, I wasn't planning on doing anything extraordinary anyway.

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#43 Posted by XLR87T3 (10394 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: Ok what on Earth are you talking about? Broly never appeared in GT. All of Brolys movies cane out during DBZ and before the Janemba novie. Janemba fought a much stronger version of the Goku Broly fought.

Broly exists in his own universe, and thus we go by his own feats. He destroyed the southern quadrant, and needed plot devices to even be defeated, while Janemba only destroyed Goku. Scaling from DBZ or Janemba to Broly is utterly useless, it is like scaling Superman to above Thor even though they never canonically fought

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#44 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18964 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by emperorthanos- (16898 posts) - - Show Bio
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