Kirby, Mewtwo and Darkrai: Creatures of Various Shapes
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Kirby: Hero of Popstar
"Poyo!"
Let's start with the heavyweight of my group (in spite of being a walking marshmallow), Kirby, who serves as a monster in terms of physicals, and will be ripping my opponents to shreds with his well beyond planetary capabilities, with some light hax thrown around for good measure.
Abilities/Gear:
Kirby Dream Land 3
Let's start with Kirby's main "gear", the famed Warp Star, a magic, well, star that Kirby can spawn at basically any point and use as a mode of transportation.
Kirby Squeak Squad
The Warp Star has shown to be fast enough to go well over FTL speeds, in this instance going between seemingly different galaxies in a matter of a second, and whilst this can be chalked up to merely travel speed, Kirby has shown the to fight and inhale others whilst flying around on a Warp Star (hell, that's basically the entire concept behind Kirby Air Ride, using various types of Warp Stars/Air Machines to outrace opponents, swallowing up and attacking foes as they travel), so this can still transfer into other types of speed in regards to Kirby himself.
Kirby Triple Deluxe
Speaking of Inhaling enemies, let's discuss that. As seen above, Kirby has the ability to absorb any enemy he can find and absorb them into his stomach (which is actually it's own separate pocket dimension) and then transfer their power into one of his many copy abilities. Whilst within the rules presented Inhalation may seem like a form-of BFR, but it still can be used to catch some projectiles and allow access to Kirby's wide array of Copy Abilities, or just a means of completely absorbing enemies and coping their powers as a result, Majin Buu style.
Kirby Triple Deluxe
Being able to tap into his pocket dimension at any point allows Kirby access to basically all of his abilities at any point, and if I listed them all we'd be here all day, but the one I want to highlight for now is Hypernova, a power-up which turns up Kirby's Inhale capabilities into overdrive, and gives Kirby the ability to shrink whatever he's eating (in this case, Sectonia's giant laser),and shown later to be able to spit it right back out (see the physicals segment), making basically any kind of projectile you throw at me essentially a free weapon for Kirby to exploit.
Physicals:
Now Kirby is one-hell of a physical powerhouse, and whilst what I will show here are lower end feats, particularly for strength (given how there's one feat I'll be saving until I deem it necessary) they are still majorly impressive for someone of Kirby's size.
Kirby of the Stars: Super Deluxe Chapter 5
Here we see Kirby destroying Pop Star (basically a planet in the shape of a star) with a single, casual punch, putting him at Planet+ striking strength. This in it's own right is very impressive, but this also doubles as a durability feat, as Kirby was still in the middle of the exploding planet, and came out without a scratch.
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And as for a durability feat, here we have Kirby being right in the middle of a planet wide explosion, and came out without a single scratch and acted more surprised than hurt. This easily puts Kirby at planet+ level durability.
Mewtwo: Imitation of The Original
"I was not born a Pokemon, I was created. And my creators have used and betrayed me, so, I stand alone!"
Next with have Mewtwo, and whilst I'll only be going over the bare essentials in this opener, rest assured, Mewtwo is insanely versatile, and I'll merely be scratching the tip of the iceberg regarding Mewtwo's sheer number of options for basically any situation, and thus will act as the main support to help Kirby's offense. Though before we begin, I'd like to address now that I will be using moves in the future that Mewtwo only learns in-game, so just to prove I'm not just making stuff up, I'll will provide a link to show all of Mewtwo's available moves through natural means (so I won't use TMs/HMs since Mewtwo can only learn them via unnatural means/ with outside help, though I'd recommend scrolling down a bit to go to the Ultra Sun/Moon segment, as the Let's Go games heavily limit the amount of moves available for Gen 1 pandering simplicity).
Telekinesis/Telepathy:
Let's start this segment with TK, Mewtwo's favorite.
Pokemon: The First Movie - Mewtwo Strikes Back
With a single stare, Mewtwo can cast telekinesis on whoever he chooses, causing pain just by grabbing a guy in midair (also as an FYI, the armor Mewtwo's wearing kept it's powers under control whilst it was learning how to use them, anything it can do with the armor, it can do fine without it). I'll elaborate on this later should I require it, but rest assured, Mewtwo's TK is quite potent.
And on the other side of the spectrum, Mewtwo's TP is just as good, if not better.
Pokemon: The First Movie - Mewtwo Strikes Back
Mewtwo's shown the ability to completely rewrite memories of a persons past.
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Pokemon: The First Movie - Mewtwo Strikes Back
It's been able to wipe out an arena's worth of people's memories of basically the entire day they were there (basically making them forget the entire movie ever happened), showing both it can wipe more than 1 person at once and that Mewtwo can wipe specific memories.
Pokemon: The First Movie - Mewtwo Strikes Back
It can go even further beyond mind-wiping to flat out mind possession, in this instance, stealing a Nurse Joy for well over a months time.
Pokemon The Movie: Genesect And The Legend Awakened
And just in case Mewtwo has no knowledge of what it needs to mind wipe (although all it really needs to do in this fight is just erase the knowledge of what they were doing/who they were), he can always just peer into it's opponents memories and get exactly what he needs, as well as all they have to offer.
Speed:
In terms of physicals, speed will be the only thing necessary given his role as TK/TP lord (Kirby's got the raw strength and durability on lock-down), but the speed he does have make him incredibly potent.
Pokemon The Movie: Genesect And The Legend Awakened
In this instance, we see Mewtwo being able to not only transform into Y form (it has a super form BTW) and block a laser coming after Ash, but goes so fast that the laser he blocked was moving at a crawl, DCEU Superman style.
In-Game Descriptions
What makes this truly impressive is that this isn't just some unquantifiable laser, but rather a Techno Blast, Genesect's signature move, which has been described as 'a beam of light', proving that blocking this makes Mewtwo FTL, possibly MFTL depending on interpretation. And this isn't even Mewtwo's best FTL feat.
Best part about this feat is that it basically works for all types of speed, whether it be travel, reaction, whatever, so all in all, a top tier feat.
Darkrai: The Living Nightmare
Can't find any decent quotes :(
Now admittedly Darkrai isn't exactly bringing anything special to the table in terms of stats, being a 1 pointer and all, but what he brings instead is his toolkit that will be used to snag a KO on one of your unsuspecting foes, and provide support to Kirby and Mewtwo. Worth noting that much like with Mewtwo, I will be using moves that Darkrai can learn in-game, so much like with the other Pokemon, here's a list for full transparency.
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Pokemon: The Rise of Darkrai Chapter 1
Let's start with Darkrai's main source of 'offense', albeit hardly a traditional one, that being Dark Void, these black balls of spooky ghost energy that can be sprayed in a basically every direction at once, and when they do hit the mark, they cause the victim to be lost in a nightmare, falling asleep and being tormented from the inside. Needless to say, if you don't have the proper resistances, this will prove quite fatal.
Pokemon: The Rise of Darkrai
Now one particularly interesting move Darkrai can perform is the ability to create this weird, darkness bubble that absorbed attacks from both Dialga and Palkia at the same time (the rulers of all of Space and Time across the universe BTW), making for a unique defensive option that could prove to be useful. This bubble also acts as a sort of stationary version of the typical Dark Void.
Pokemon: The Rise of Darkrai
Lastly, Darkrai has his defensive options, as he has the ability to transform into a shadow, giving him fully fledged intangibility, pretty simple, but very useful.
Prep:
Now I'll admit I don't have some Machiavellian scheme which can god-stomp any team within this prep, but there are some things each of my characters can do to prepare for the upcoming assault. Though I will mention that this isn't necessarily the order in which the prep will occur, as it all can happen at basically any point my members desire.
Kirby:
Now admittedly their's not much Kirby needs to do, but all he really needs to do is create his Warp Star, activate Hypernova and wait for the Pokemon, so not much to go over with him.
Mewtwo:
Pokemon Adventures Vol 24, Chapter 284, also as a heads up, the Adventures manga reads like a left to right, unlike most manga
Mewtwo will establish telepathic communication between my team (normally he only does this to people he trusts, however that's a rule specifically for humans, and given both of Mewtwo's teammates either are or look like Pokemon, this shouldn't be a factor), pretty self-explanatory as to why it's useful.
Amnesia in game description
Next, Mewtwo will use Amnesia, which will boost it's defense against non-physical attacks by 4x, giving it a bit of extra sustainability, albeit if Mewtwo really has to survive a blow, he has other methods which I will discuss when relevant.
Psych-Up in game description
During this period of amping up and seeing Darkrai using Nasty Plot, Mewtwo will use another move called Psych-Up, a move which copies the amps of any opponent, and thus will copy Darkrai's Nasty Plot (see Darkrai's section for details on Nasty Plot, but this will greatly increase Mewtwo's physic prowess 4x over). Also worth noting is that if you ever amp up for whatever reasons and Mewtwo finds out, Psych Up can copy all the benefits you would get.
Pokemon Adventures, Volume 3 Chapter 34
And of course to ends things off Mewtwo will not only use this time to go invisible (given Mewtwo is classified as Mega Mewtwo in the rulings, it should be in it's Mewtwo Y form from the start, but it can still transform at a moments notice during prep should this not be the case), ready to TK/TP the first opponent he sees before the battle begins.
Darkrai:
Now out of everyone here Darkrai probably has the most work to do when considering prep, or at least his prep will be the most relevant, so let's get started.
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First thing Darkrai will do is set up an Illusion around the battlefield (in this instances being able to both create a practically perfect replicate of the player Pokemon's partner, as well as hide the 6 other Pokemon to surprise them) as shown here, pretty self-explanatory. Setting this up not only gives my team inherent invisibility on top of what they naturally can use, but Illusions that you need to prove you have answers for.
Nasty Plot In-Game Description
Next move Darkrai will set-up is Nasty Plot, an ability which raises it's attacks power by 4 times, making his hypnosis all the more lethal/efficient. Pretty useful for obvious reasons.
Next thing Darkrai will do is set up Double Team clones to the highest level this tourney allows. These are basically Naruto's Shadow Clones, being able to act independently and use all the moves Darkrai can. This means that any kind of illusions or void bubbles that Darkrai can set up, can be done in 10 different locations, thus giving them both extra range, and extra versatility in what they can show. (Note that this example of Double Team in use may be an Aipom doing this and not Darkrai, since it's the same move it should work the same way, or even greater given Darkrai's light years ahead of any Aipom).
Finally, not only will the clones start to create their own Illusions, but they will start to set up all of the void bubbles that it used against Dialga and Palkia, whilst the real Darkrai goes intangible and ready to launch a surprise Dark Void, leaving 9 bubbles which the team can fall back to should they feel the need to, absorb dangerous attacks or get the chance to bait the enemy into.
With any time remaining or before the prep starts, the team can also spend time together discussing each other's abilities and formulating a plan of attack, as a neat little bonus benefit.
All of these parts, between all of my members shouldn't take longer than an hour, and whilst I may add things to prep in future (mostly cause knowing me I probably forgot something), this should give you a general idea of what you'll be dealing with.
Initial Thoughts:
Now I don't know much about your team, but from what I do know I'll make an first impressions:
Nate Grey:
Now I'm aware Nate is arguably one of the best, if not the best telepath this tourney has to offer, and whilst I will acknowledge that, something which I haven't brought up yet, that being my TP/Soul Immunity perk, kinda completely makes this part of his character, nerfing him very hard. But aside from that, his best factors seem to be his TK and energy body, both of which are things my team can handle, which I'll discuss in my next post.
Mantis:
Mantis seems like she's in a similar position as Nate, as TP Immunity seems to completely crush her existence, but I'm aware she basically has MCU Strange style knowledge of the future, and whilst that certainly helps you, I don't it's enough to counteract her being kind if dead-weight from what I can tell, but admittedly this is the person I know the least about, so I'll wait and see.
Mirror Master:
Lastly, regarding Mirror Master, I'm honestly not really sure what to make of him. Whilst he seems to have transmutation which is nullified by my other perk, his actual mirror powers are honestly kinda confusing to me, as I'm not really sure how it works, particularly how he kills with it, so I'll wait and see for now.
Conclusion/TL;DR:
Kirby can dish out and take planetary level hits pretty easily, with a FTL Warp Star and some light hax
Mewtwo's FTL and has a wide toolkit of TK, TP and other abilities
Darkrai has a form of offense that could snag a victory on those without the proper defenses, and some solid versatility.
With prep my team will be amped up, super forms activated, bubbles setup and ready to brawl.
You're gonna need a lot of resistances to get through everything my team has to offer.
From what I know of your team, TP immunity hurts you really badly.
This should show that I don't think you'll be winning this match easily, but I'd like to see if I can be convinced otherwise.
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Besides, what soulless monster would want to hurt this precious child?
WIth full knowledge of your team's powers, abilities and weaknesses, my team will build a strategy playing to their strength while directly countering their enemies. Nate will set of a PSI connection among the team allowing instastant communication, and strategizing. Mantis offers the most productive ability in strategizing with her percog it's powerful enough to see months in advance. Also it's an always on ability in which she chooses not to share info with her team for plot reason (nothing hindering her here).
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The first step of the plan if to empower Mirror Master (who I'm going to be referring to as Evan) considering of the three he's the second most powerful member in combat. Nate with Evan will teleport around the desert planet blasting large section of earth into reflective glass. Although the landscape doesn't need to be completely glass as even slightly reflective is enough for Evan to work with.
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My team will finish up their prep by picking their starting locations. Since it has been made known teams must start on the battlefield Mantis and Evan will choose a location that won't be instantly blasted at the start of the fight. Considering Mantis has precog I'm sure she'll choose right every time. Nate on the other hand will be confronting his opponents directly.
Opening Strategy
"This is where the fun begins."
Mantis and Evan will start the fight by jumping into the mirror dimension. That gives the the perfect defences while also allowing them to attack. Which is what the prep of making mirrors was for, as any reflection will them enough room to interact with the real world. Once in they'll locate your team and focus on being a constant distraction possibly bringing an opponent or two down.
Evan's power is unique as things he does to reflections also happen to the target. Such as cutting someone's throat or snorting cocaine. This works in Mantis favor as he main form of combat hand to hand being so skill she can pressure point anything with a nervous system. That even goes for characters a durable as Thor, so while in the mirror world she can attack reflections unimpeded.
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While my lower point characters do their thing Nate will be doing his thing in with TK. His deal is he's intangible to most things that can't hurt/interact with his psionic energy. So while his teammates distracts and pummels the opponents from the mirror world he can keep enemy focus on him. Nate's options with TK are limited although they'll be effective with full knowledge (perk) and precog (mantis). Nate can take out lower tier characters with TK restraints or blast (shown above). Although he can take out everyone quicker and more precise with TK that targets the electricity in the brain.
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If you doubt just how good he is with his TK on the brain then here is is feat of reanimating a preserved body making it speak.
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So as I see it your physically dominate characters have nothing to fight and TK and telepathic attacks will only empower Nate. Considering they are composed of psionic energy something Nate can absorb. On top of all that full knowledge and precog will tell my team any and all possible counters for or against them.
Counter Post: Nintendo All-Stars vs Comic Book Hax Lords
Counters:
Mantis offers the most productive ability in strategizing with her percog it's powerful enough to see months in advance. Also it's an always on ability in which she chooses not to share info with her team for plot reason (nothing hindering her here).
This part of the panel in particular bothers me based on your plan, since it shows that an in-character Mantis doesn't seem to want to even spill what the team will decide on regarding a name, or more relevant, when someone will be killed. And it's not like X-Man seems to give a full on mind-link, and in the other source Mantis only told Peter until literally the last second to where he couldn't do anything about it, so I really doubt an in-character Mantis will tell everything to her team.
And I know you brought up it's because of plot, but what would classify as 'plot'? If she wasn't going to do it when her friends where gonna get murderfied, why should she do it here? Saying it's because of 'plot' doesn't really mean much from what I can tell given how vaguely you put it, especially since Mantis states in this panel time and space itself would be damaged if she said the wrong words. Sure she'll know what'll happen, but that won't mean much when Nate and MM don't know, so overall, can't really see her just spilling the beans just like that, how you think she will.
The first step of the plan if to empower Mirror Master (who I'm going to be referring to as Evan) considering of the three he's the second most powerful member in combat. Nate with Evan will teleport around the desert planet blasting large section of earth into reflective glass. Although the landscape doesn't need to be completely glass as even slightly reflective is enough for Evan to work with.
Ultimately, nothing's stopping Mewtwo and Kirby from just hanging out in space during prep, a good distance away from the planet (behind a moon sounds like a good spot), which is something they can totally do during prep, Kirby and Mewtwo can both breath in space, and Mewtwo's smart enough to say something along the lines of "The enemy will likely spawn near here, let's move somewhere else", (which Kirby'd happily oblige given his history of being incredibly gullible, see Marx or Magalor). Darkrai probably could too, given the lack of organs (more info later), not to mention the illusions surrounding the area thanks to it, making Evan's powers kinda useless as far as I can tell.
Also you mention that Nate can transmute things into glass, but there's 2 problems I have with that.
You never actually showed any transmutation feats for Nate to back up that he could do this (blowing chunks in a planet doesn't really count, for fairly clear reasons). I'm willing to take your word for it, but some scans would be nice either way.
This is the big thing, is that would Nate and Evan even get along well enough to team up like this. Evan in particular seems pretty psycho, and not the kinda guy to just team up with a guy he doesn't know at a moments notice, and the same applies to Nate. I'll admit I'm basing these solely of what I've seen of their personalities, but something tells me they wont click together that quickly, and your plan relies heavily on them buddying up pretty well.
My team will finish up their prep by picking their starting locations. Since it has been made known teams must start on the battlefield Mantis and Evan will choose a location that won't be instantly blasted at the start of the fight. Considering Mantis has precog I'm sure she'll choose right every time. Nate on the other hand will be confronting his opponents directly.
Again, if Mantis didn't stop herself getting pimp-slapped by Ultron, why would she save herself here? What's different in this scenario to where she would do that?
Mantis and Evan will start the fight by jumping into the mirror dimension. That gives the the perfect defences while also allowing them to attack. Which is what the prep of making mirrors was for, as any reflection will them enough room to interact with the real world. Once in they'll locate your team and focus on being a constant distraction possibly bringing an opponent or two down.
So basically I need to find a way to get to the mirror dimension in order to get to Evan and Mantis? Not a problem, and to prove so let's start scaling.
Kirby Squeak Squad
Kirby has previously defeated Meta Knight multiple times. (heck in Super Star, Meta Knight forced him to use a Sword, and he still lost).
Kirby Planet Robobot
Now the reason that's impressive is because Meta Knight has his own feat of defeating Galacta Knight, someone who as shown above, is strong enough to quite literally cut a hole in the fabric of reality, summoning a giant laser during the middle of a fight. Whilst one may argue that this is a Galacta Knight specific thing, the problem lies in that besides him being the supposed 'greatest warrior in the galaxy', we don't know jack about this guy, so saying something to the affect of "it was his sword that did that" is honestly nothing more than head-canon.
Anywhos, with that tangent out of the way, it should be clear that Kirby scales to this, and with this in mind, can quite frankly just bust right into Evan's own little pocket dimension and take the fight there, making him pretty useless in the long term afaik once Kirby figures this out (he can't run away forever).
Evan's power is unique as things he does to reflections also happen to the target. Such as cutting someone's throat or snorting cocaine.
Certainly interesting, but based on what I've seen, Evan himself isn't doing much to my team by himself, but admittedly it doesn't seem like you planned to.
This works in Mantis favour as he main form of combat hand to hand being so skill she can pressure point anything with a nervous system. That even goes for characters a durable as Thor, so while in the mirror world she can attack reflections unimpeded.
Again, Darkrai's illusion honestly seem to kinda hard-counter the mirrors, as what they will see in the reflections will be not what's actually there, causing Mantis to essentially fight the air. And whilst you could argue that the Illusion wont cover the entire planet (which would be true admittedly), the Illusions will be enough to cover the battlefield that we'll be fighting on, and would still trick your team into thinking we're in 1 place, when we're not.
His deal is he's intangible to most things that can't hurt/interact with his psionic energy. So while his teammates distracts and pummels the opponents from the mirror world he can keep enemy focus on him.
Honestly to deal with that Kirby can just devour/absorb him, he's eaten energy before, and whilst he can't steal his powers, given the rules of the tourney, it'd still count as a win.
Nate's options with TK are limited although they'll be effective with full knowledge (perk) and precog (mantis). Nate can take out lower tier characters with TK restraints or blast (shown above).
Based on the feats presented earlier, Kirby can no-sell that TK, or at least it'll never put him down for good, and nothing's stopping Mewtwo from just teleporting out of harms way, whilst Darkrai chills whilst Intangible, and thus not getting damaged by the pressure.
Although he can take out everyone quicker and more precise with TK that targets the electricity in the brain. If you doubt just how good he is with his TK on the brain then here is is feat of reanimating a preserved body making it speak.
tbh, I'm not even sure if any of my members even have brains. I'm positive Mewtwo and Darkrai don't, given the former's artificial nature and the latter's ghost like body, but Kirby I honestly have no clue. Maybe I'm just misremembering things, but I can't remember anything that points to Kirby having an actual brain (and given his alien species, it feels wrong to just assume he has one, especially since other characters like Marx pretty clearly don't have one), so going further into this debate, I will be debating as if Kirby doesn't have a literal brain, thus making Nate a lot less useful.
So as I see it your physically dominate characters have nothing to fight and TK and telepathic attacks will only empower Nate. Considering they are composed of psionic energy something Nate can absorb.
Kirby can still devour Nate, and it's only a matter of time before he or Mewtwo figure out where Evan is and bust right into their house and clean it, so to speak.
On top of all that full knowledge and precog will tell my team any and all possible counters for or against them.
Precog won't work, as talked about earlier, and this is a matter of you having 2 options for victory
Hiding mantis in the mirror dimension and cheapshoting my team to victory
Nate TK GG
Neither of which will work as:
Mantis will only see the Illusion versions of my characters, and due to TP immunity she can't just sense them, and Kirby can reach Evan's mirror dimension
Nate's TK is honestly just something Kirby can just overpower, as it isn't anything Kirby hasn't beaten in terms of strength, and given that Kirby will be lifting up against the pressure of the TK, his lifting strength can be used to decide wether or not he can overpower this
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With that said, Kirby's ability to throw this monster and a giant frying pan all the way to the sun and back relatively easily (planet level feat at least imo), allowing Kirby the ability to overpower Nate' TK and go for an absorption victory, at which point, the rest is easy pickings.
Conclusion:
Kirby still dwarfs your team in physicals, as does Mewtwo in speed (since you've shown no feats to prove otherwise)
Darkrai's Illusions counter Mirror Master, making the reflections be nothing but fakes whilst the real deals run off and clean house
Kirby has the strength to bust into the mirror dimension and beat Mantis and Evan that way
Kirby can power through Nate's TK crushing and absorb him, defeating him
My team has the outs to your hax due to their natural physique
Overall, my team wins with Kirby as MVP (just like last round lol)
This part of the panel in particular bothers me based on your plan, since it shows that an in-character Mantis doesn't seem to want to even spill what the team will decide on regarding a name, or more relevant, when someone will be killed. And it's not like X-Man seems to give a full on mind-link, and in the other source Mantis only told Peter until literally the last second to where he couldn't do anything about it, so I really doubt an in-character Mantis will tell everything to her team.
Knowledge of the future is need to know because the simple fact of knowing the future in marvel changes it. So telling her team things they don't already know would put the future she sees in jeopardy which defeats the purpose of having precog (leave well enough alone). Lucky for me my team already has full knowledge of their opponents. Which means there isn't anything Mantis knows about what your team her teammates doesn't. All Mantis is doing is paring the knowledge they have with the experience they will gain in battle. Also it isn't like she hasn't used her precog to give her team an edge in battle or herself for that matter.
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And I know you brought up it's because of plot, but what would classify as 'plot'? If she wasn't going to do it when her friends where gonna get murderfied, why should she do it here? Saying it's because of 'plot' doesn't really mean much from what I can tell given how vaguely you put it, especially since Mantis states in this panel time and space itself would be damaged if she said the wrong words. Sure she'll know what'll happen, but that won't mean much when Nate and MM don't know, so overall, can't really see her just spilling the beans just like that, how you think she will.
When I state plot I mean story elements that can't be changed without first rewriting the story. If she told the GotG that Adam Warlock would become Magus killing fellow heroes they would have stopped him right then a there. Which would leave the universal fracture known as the fault open (since Magus is the one who closes it). These are details crucial to the plot something that doesn't exist here as there isn't a plot. What I'm getting at is Mantis silence is demanded by the plot and when such a thing doesn't exist she to hender her she'll give info freely.
But let's see how you structure your rebuttal on why she still wouldn't help her team.
Ultimately, nothing's stopping Mewtwo and Kirby from just hanging out in space during prep, a good distance away from the planet (behind a moon sounds like a good spot), which is something they can totally do during prep, Kirby and Mewtwo can both breath in space, and Mewtwo's smart enough to say something along the lines of "The enemy will likely spawn near here, let's move somewhere else", (which Kirby'd happily oblige given his history of being incredibly gullible, see Marx or Magalor). Darkrai probably could too, given the lack of organs (more info later), not to mention the illusions surrounding the area thanks to it, making Evan's powers kinda useless as far as I can tell.
What? My teams prep is for the battle and can't affect your team until then. Now if you're countering after the fact then you must realize you are opting for a cop out because you don't have any direct counters. Your team has no knowledge of mine team's abilities or prep so what they do with their prep can't logically counter my team's prep. Also no where in your prep did you specify your team would move to a different location than where the fight would initially take place.
You never actually showed any transmutation feats for Nate to back up that he could do this (blowing chunks in a planet doesn't really count, for fairly clear reasons). I'm willing to take your word for it, but some scans would be nice either way.
If you're willing to take my word for it why even bring it up? You really only have two choices here state nate can't do it, or agree Nate's that powerful to do it. But I'll indulge your skepticism anyway. First off Nate's TK works on the molecular level moving the molecules out of his way to pass through them. Also Nate has shown he can turn shards of glass into harmless sand and it doesn't take a genius to invert the process.
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This is the big thing, is that would Nate and Evan even get along well enough to team up like this. Evan in particular seems pretty psycho, and not the kinda guy to just team up with a guy he doesn't know at a moments notice, and the same applies to Nate. I'll admit I'm basing these solely of what I've seen of their personalities, but something tells me they wont click together that quickly, and your plan relies heavily on them buddying up pretty well.
@emperorthanos-Never specified how much teamwork would be a factor so I'll let him comment on that. But it should be noted my team doesn't know each other and all have worked with character that they mistrust more times than none.
Anyway Mantis will be doing all the planning and everyone will be following her lead so if there is anyone to be trusted it would be the precognitive character.
Again, if Mantis didn't stop herself getting pimp-slapped by Ultron, why would she save herself here? What's different in this scenario to where she would do that?
The difference there is plot Mantis is willing to sacrifice herself and her friends if it means ultimately winning. Her allowing herself to be taken out ensure the future she saw from the get go of the GotG beating Ultron. The only way you could get across that she doesn't use her procog to win a fight is that she has deliberately used ignored it to lose in story. Which has never happened and I would gladly see you try to find an example.
So basically I need to find a way to get to the mirror dimension in order to get to Evan and Mantis? Not a problem, and to prove so let's start scaling.
Before I dive into the scaling lets actually the plausibility of this strat. None of your team knows how mirror master powers work nor do they have the intelligence to access alternate dimensions. So even tho you are arguing Kirby has the by proxy he's too dumb to use it on his best day. The chance of this crossing any of your characters minds falls to Mewtwo. But that still lacks plausibility as you would need to argue they stomp Nate (suffering no losses) while tanking Mantis attacks from the mirror dimension. It will be interesting to see you prove any of this.
Now the reason that's impressive is because Meta Knight has his own feat of defeating Galacta Knight, someone who as shown above, is strong enough to quite literally cut a hole in the fabric of reality, summoning a giant laser during the middle of a fight. Whilst one may argue that this is a Galacta Knight specific thing, the problem lies in that besides him being the supposed 'greatest warrior in the galaxy', we don't know jack about this guy, so saying something to the affect of "it was his sword that did that" is honestly nothing more than head-canon.
Anywhos, with that tangent out of the way, it should be clear that Kirby scales to this, and with this in mind, can quite frankly just bust right into Evan's own little pocket dimension and take the fight there, making him pretty useless in the long term afaik once Kirby figures this out (he can't run away forever).
Now let's work through why this doesn't amount to anything. I'm going to Ignoring the scaling outright since that's an in universe argument but will be focusing on the ability itself. From what you've shown doesn't seem to be some innate ability swordsman possess but a move specific power to create an attack. It's pretty evident that the character opens up a specific dimension from where the laser will emerge it seems to work the same as Cyclop's force beam. You would have a point if you could show them cutting open reality to teleport but then I would still have rebuttal for that.
Such as the fact Wally can run through time and dimensions with his speed but Even can trap him in the mirror dimension.
Gallery
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But let's ignore all that an state your team makes it into the mirror dimension. That would actually make Evan the MVP of this match as he can take the fight to a part of the mirror dimension where your team's powers don't work. With that Mantis will know their plan far in advance of coming into the mirror dimension making this far too plausible for you to ignore it.
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Certainly interesting, but based on what I've seen, Evan himself isn't doing much to my team by himself, but admittedly it doesn't seem like you planned to.
The rules and your team's perks handicaps Evan too much for me to argue him in any impactful way (unless your team is in the mirror dimension by choice). However that doesn't stop him from being utilized in ways your team can't circumvent.
Again, Darkrai's illusion honestly seem to kinda hard-counter the mirrors, as what they will see in the reflections will be not what's actually there, causing Mantis to essentially fight the air. And whilst you could argue that the Illusion wont cover the entire planet (which would be true admittedly), the Illusions will be enough to cover the battlefield that we'll be fighting on, and would still trick your team into thinking we're in 1 place, when we're not.
I've already stated Nate's TK will take out the weaker members of your team. Which is why I didn't see a reason to address dispelling the clones/illusion since they'll be among the first to be taken out.
Honestly to deal with that Kirby can just devour/absorb him, he's eaten energy before, and whilst he can't steal his powers, given the rules of the tourney, it'd still count as a win.
Eating Nate's energy form would be inconsequential and wouldn't count as a win. Nate can and has recreated his energy from even while while weakend. Also Kirby's stomach counts as another dimension which is BFR, same reason why I can't have your team put into the mirror dimension destroying it.
Based on the feats presented earlier, Kirby can no-sell that TK, or at least it'll never put him down for good, and nothing's stopping Mewtwo from just teleporting out of harms way, whilst Darkrai chills whilst Intangible, and thus not getting damaged by the pressure.
I already offered alternate ways Nate would take out any member who could tank his TK blasts which is what we get into next. Mewtwo leaving doesn't get him out of harm's way since Nate can follow him wherever he may go. Darkrai seems to be the only one incapacitating itself since it doesn't seem it can't fight while being a shadow nor can if win a fight against my team.
tbh, I'm not even sure if any of my members even have brains. I'm positive Mewtwo and Darkrai don't, given the former's artificial nature and the latter's ghost like body, but Kirby I honestly have no clue. Maybe I'm just misremembering things, but I can't remember anything that points to Kirby having an actual brain (and given his alien species, it feels wrong to just assume he has one, especially since other characters like Marx pretty clearly don't have one), so going further into this debate, I will be debating as if Kirby doesn't have a literal brain, thus making Nate a lot less useful.
Since you weren't sure I did a quick google search to check for myself on mewtwo and Kirby. The only thing I found on mewtwo was a wikipedia citation "As Mewtwo relies mostly on its powerful brain, there are times when it scarcely uses its arms and legs." I don't know the validity of it being canon so you can take this as you will. Kirby however has official sources showing his anatomy. You're supposed to the kirby debater, I demand a refund. Which means if you argue kirby without a brain you'd be going against a canon source.
So Nate could TK shut down Kirby at the start of the fight.
Kirby can still devour Nate, and it's only a matter of time before he or Mewtwo figure out where Evan is and bust right into their house and clean it, so to speak.
Kirby eating Nate wouldn't work due to Nate's ability and BFR being against the rules. Kirby would taken out before Mewtwo could (doubtfully) think of this strat. And I've already addressed why fighting in the mirror dimension would net my team a win.
Precog won't work, as talked about earlier, and this is a matter of you having 2 options for victory
You never argued it wouldn't work nor is there an argument why it wouldn't work. You stated Mantis won't use it regardless of plot, which means you'll need to use plot to justify that (ha). There isn't an argument of Mantis precog not working as I've shown it works hrs and months in advance.
By the way my teams options for victory aren't limited I'm just smart enough to know having a strategy means not arguing and seeing what sticks.
I don't need to address anything more since it's a reiteration of things I've already refuted.
@emperorthanos-: Just a heads up just in case, I'm working on my post rn, but I may need a bit of an extension. Won't need than 1 or 2 days at most tho.
Knowledge of the future is need to know because the simple fact of knowing the future in marvel changes it. So telling her team things they don't already know would put the future she sees in jeopardy which defeats the purpose of having precog (leave well enough alone). Lucky for me my team already has full knowledge of their opponents. Which means there isn't anything Mantis knows about what your team her teammates doesn't. All Mantis is doing is paring the knowledge they have with the experience they will gain in battle.
I confirmed with ET (ask him if you must) that prep does not come under full knowledge, so their's still plenty of stuff Mantis wouldn't know about e.g. wether or not amps are even applied, the location my team decide to start in, what the Illusion Darkrai'll setup looks like, the power Kirby starts with etc, leaving some open holes that can potentially be exploited in this case. And keep in mind Kirby will not be using every power (dudes got like 30+ of them), so their's lots of variables in his case.
Also it isn't like she hasn't used her precog to give her team an edge in battle or herself for that matter.
This would have to be a case of Mantis being able to tell the other what part of the plan changed in whatever happens to her teammates fast enough before they either get absorb in Nate's case, or slammed into oblivion in Evan's (more on them at a later date), which without any speed feats, I severely doubt.
When I state plot I mean story elements that can't be changed without first rewriting the story. If she told the GotG that Adam Warlock would become Magus killing fellow heroes they would have stopped him right then a there. Which would leave the universal fracture known as the fault open (since Magus is the one who closes it). These are details crucial to the plot something that doesn't exist here as there isn't a plot. What I'm getting at is Mantis silence is demanded by the plot and when such a thing doesn't exist she to hender her she'll give info freely.
This is probably the weirdest part of the debate tbh, and whilst it's unfortunately isn't anything I can just put a hard 'no' button on, but ultimately, I hopefully should be able to convey that even with the precog, your team doesn't really have anything that my team isn't prepared for in some form or fashion, so ultimately, whilst I'll concede that this exists, wether or not you can do anything with it is an entirely different issue.
What? My teams prep is for the battle and can't affect your team until then. Now if you're countering after the fact then you must realize you are opting for a cop out because you don't have any direct counters. Your team has no knowledge of mine team's abilities or prep so what they do with their prep can't logically counter my team's prep.
This was never my be-all-end-all plan for this fight, just simply another alternative that my team could go through with. It's hardly illogical in a no knowledge situation to come up with. And again, to emphasise, this wasn't my main idea, given how I'll be defending Kirby's dimension busting and Darkrai's Illusions shortly, this is merely something Mewtwo can do.
Also no where in your prep did you specify your team would move to a different location than where the fight would initially take place.
I literally state that I may add things to prep in the future within my opener, so nothing I didn't account for, nor nothing you couldn't.
If you're willing to take my word for it why even bring it up? You really only have two choices here state nate can't do it, or agree Nate's that powerful to do it. But I'll indulge your skepticism anyway. First off Nate's TK works on the molecular level moving the molecules out of his way to pass through them. Also Nate has shown he can turn shards of glass into harmless sand and it doesn't take a genius to invert the process.
It was this exact scenario that I was concerned about, to which the issue being is that neither of the feats provided where anywhere close to a planetary scale (and scaling this power off of TK/TP feels off given they're entirely separate things), so it makes me doubt Nate could engulf an entire planet in glass. You could argue he will do it overtime, but then comes the question both wether or not he can transmute something as large as, say, a mountain, as well as wether or not he has the speed to do it within the time limit, and given that this would require pretty potent travel speed, given how he'd have to speed past the entire planet whilst actively transmuting it (something you've yet to show in any capacity), I'd like to see if he could.
ET Never specified how much teamwork would be a factor so I'll let him comment on that.
Well that's on you to show his response, not like I'm going to go out my way and show it for you.
But it should be noted my team doesn't know each other and all have worked with character that they mistrust more times than none.
I imagine it's only under very specific circumstances and not just "hey, this kid's strong, let's team up real quick!"
The Flash (1987) #105
This panel for Evan you posted in particular (whose basically the linchpin of your strategy) actually illustrates my point pretty well. Under normal circumstances, it seems like he would've done all of this by himself, but he only teamed up with Flash because he had to, not because he wanted to, and even with full knowledge, that doesn't necessarily negate the chance of them running off solo assuming they can win just fine by themselves (it seemed Evan had basic knowledge here at the very least, if not moreso).
Anyway Mantis will be doing all the planning and everyone will be following her lead so if there is anyone to be trusted it would be the precognitive character.
Mantis doesn't exactly strike me as the type of girl who can lead a duo of crazy people, so unless you provide proof that she can keep them in check, still not entirely convinced.
The difference there is plot Mantis is willing to sacrifice herself and her friends if it means ultimately winning. Her allowing herself to be taken out ensure the future she saw from the get go of the GotG beating Ultron. The only way you could get across that she doesn't use her procog to win a fight is that she has deliberately used ignored it to lose in story. Which has never happened and I would gladly see you try to find an example.
Fair enough, but this kinda shows that Mantis is more than willing to sacrifice players in order to win a game, something your team can't really afford to do.
Before I dive into the scaling lets actually the plausibility of this strat. None of your team knows how mirror master powers work nor do they have the intelligence to access alternate dimensions. The chance of this crossing any of your characters minds falls to Mewtwo.
Fortunately for me, this isn't the first time one of Kirby's opponents have used mirror based shenanigans.
Kirby & The Amazing Mirror
Another enemy Kirby has defeated is Dark Meta Knight (note that in Amazing Mirror, Kirby is split into 4 versions of himself, so it was hardly his standard self).
Kirby: Triple Deluxe
Who in turn has shown the ability to jump in between mirrors, in a manner similar to how Evan seems to (albeit not 1-to-1, but my point remains consistent nonetheless), so it's not as if Kirby hasn't dealt with mirror based opponents before, and would give him the idea to at least attack the reflection itself, allowing him to bust through.
But that still lacks plausibility as you would need to argue they stomp Nate (suffering no losses)
Well it's not like he's doing much back to Kirby (undoubtedly his main opponent), the best he can do as far as I can tell is TK, to which Kirby has survived far worse as I've already shown and can power right through it.
while tanking Mantis attacks from the mirror dimension. It will be interesting to see you prove any of this.
Who'd be seeing nothing but an Illusion thanks to Darkrai, and be essentially punching air, as I've established previously, so not really accounting for much. This will also give Kirby plenty of time to blitz and absorb Nate.
So even tho you are arguing Kirby has the by proxy he's too dumb to use it on his best day.
Proof to say Kirby is actually dumb? I never said he was stupid, just incredibly gullible, which isn't the same thing, and since you've shown nothing to prove your stance Kirby's lower intelligence levels, instead opting to straw-maning the gullibility part I mentioned, I find it hard to believe that Kirby wouldn't understand what Evan's trying based on his history with mirrors.
From what you've shown doesn't seem to be some innate ability swordsman possess but a move specific power to create an attack.
Based on what? Again, all we know about Galacta Knight is that he's super strong, and nothing suggests his sword, himself or anything else is special in any other way, let alone being able to cut through dimensions, so were's the source/evidence regarding this claim if it wasn't just raw strength? Is it head-canon? Cause it seems like head-canon right now.
It's pretty evident that the character opens up a specific dimension from where the laser will emerge it seems to work the same as Cyclop's force beam. You would have a point if you could show them cutting open reality to teleport but then I would still have rebuttal for that.
I can't comment on the Cyclops comparison since I don't know comics, but it's pretty obvious that nothing's stopping Galacta Knight from just waltzing in where he cuts the 'portal' open, barring the laser, it's not like their isn't enough time before the laser fires for Galacta Knight or anyone to sneak in.
Such as the fact Wally can run through time and dimensions with his speed but Even can trap him in the mirror dimension.
Beyond the fact that this still doesn't stop his and Mantis' heads getting plowed into the glass equivalent of dirt (they clearly don't have the physicals to stop Kirby or Mewtwo based on what I've seen, precog be damned), but after doing a bit of digging regarding Flash's dimension hopping, their's something that bothers me.
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Flash (2016) #21
That across all of what I could find, this was the only non-Speed Force dimension travelling feat I could find for both Barry & Wally, and it required Flash to ride this Cosmic Treadmill thing which clearly helped him, and every time travel feat he was with either this same Treadmill or after some amp.
And as for Wally it's seemingly not much better, as whilst he seemingly has contextless time travel, he hasn't really travelled across anything that isn't the Speed Force afaik.
Maybe I've missed something from Flash TPB, 57.5th anniversary #2,519 or some crap like that, but beyond the Speed Force (which given how it's the Flashes power sources, doesn't really count for fairly obvious reasons. My point being that they've never shown to be able to naturally hop between any old dimension, the Speed Force being the exception, so it naturally affects the mirror dimension, and I'm not sure how/if jumping through time would change that), I haven't seen anything, so some context-free showcases of dimension hopping would be most appreciated.
(for the sake of transparency, I found what I discuss here 1, 2, the N52/rebirth RTs for Barry & Wally. I'm aware I'm just RT debating or I may have missed something, but something going against what I'm saying here would most likely be put here, especially the Wally one given the user who made it).
But let's ignore all that an state your team makes it into the mirror dimension. That would actually make Evan the MVP of this match as he can take the fight to a part of the mirror dimension where your team's powers don't work.
Kirby doesn't need his powers, all he needs is his raw physicals to rip both of those characters a new on, and since you've shown no physicals whatsoever, pretty sure Kirby can blitz and one-shot easily. And unless the Warp Star counts as a power (which I doubt considering it's a summoned 'weapon'), I can't even see this getting rid of it.
Also as far as I can tell Evan needs to make the concise the discussion to switch(?) to the power negating mirrors, or something to that affect, it's not a natural law of the mirror world, as otherwise Flash wouldn't be able to run fast period during the scans you showed where they teamed up. Nothing too harmful even if this gets debunked someway, but something to consider nonetheless.
With that Mantis will know their plan far in advance of coming into the mirror dimension making this far too plausible for you to ignore it.
Wether or not she can even do anything is an entirely separate, since Precog or no, how is she outing Illusions whilst stuck in the mirror dimension?
I've already stated Nate's TK will take out the weaker members of your team. Which is why I didn't see a reason to address dispelling the clones/illusion since they'll be among the first to be taken out.
How does one TK illusions away? Just because you crush the area doesn't mean the illusions themselves would disappear. And Darkrai will be staying intangible, letting the clones do the manual work, so the Illusion will stay up just fine, leaving Evan and Mantis still crippled.
Eating Nate's energy form would be inconsequential and wouldn't count as a win. Nate can and has recreated his energy from even while while weakend. Also Kirby's stomach counts as another dimension which is BFR, same reason why I can't have your team put into the mirror dimension destroying it.
I'll address this in a bit, but for a quick primer, Kirby can essentially skip the bfr stage and go straight to the absorption.
I already offered alternate ways Nate would take out any member who could tank his TK blasts which is what we get into next. Mewtwo leaving doesn't get him out of harm's way since Nate can follow him wherever he may go.
Following Mewtwo just lets Kirby run off and promptly take care of Evan and Mantis, so fine by me, especially since Nate has no speed feats even close to Mewtwo's level base don what you've shown (i.e. nothing).
Darkrai seems to be the only one incapacitating itself since it doesn't seem it can't fight while being a shadow nor can if win a fight against my team.
Doesn't need to, so long as the Illusion stays up (which it will based on this so far), he's fulfilled his major purpose and can stay intangible for however long he wants. The clones and bubbles were always more of a bonus as is.
Since you weren't sure I did a quick google search to check for myself on mewtwo and Kirby. The only thing I found on mewtwo was a wikipedia citation "As Mewtwo relies mostly on its powerful brain, there are times when it scarcely uses its arms and legs." I don't know the validity of it being canon so you can take this as you will. Kirby however has official sources showing his anatomy. You're supposed to the kirby debater, I demand a refund. Which means if you argue kirby without a brain you'd be going against a canon source.
Nah, neither of those sources are canon. The one referring to Mewtwo is from Super Smash Bros. Melee, a crossover fighting game between various Nintendo franchises, which obviously has no business being canon. And as for Kirby, your own source states "it is not official from Nintendo.", so both of these sources are completely shot in the foot and thus don't debunk my point. I'm aware that the source may have been edited after you found it, but with no other proof to say Kirby having a brain and how I clearly state beings like Marx are unlikely to have one, their's more evidence going for my side rather than yours in this case.
No refunds.
Kirby eating Nate wouldn't work due to Nate's ability and BFR being against the rules.
Kirby ain't BFRing Nate, he'd instead of storing him in his stomach dimension, he'd go straight for absorbing him and attempt to copy his powers, and whilst this won't give him Nate's powers unfortunately, it'd still count as a victory given Nate will still be absorbed, and therefore a dead-man. Think of it as Kirby skipping the dimension phase and going straight for the 'copying', minus the actual power copying.
Also whilst we're on the topic, there's something I'd like to bring up. Wouldn't Evan and Mantis going to the mirror dimension count as self-bfr? If being stuck in Kirby's stomach counts as bfr, then the only real difference between Kirby and Evan's dimension beyond the mechanics of the dimension itself (which shouldn't matter given it'd still be a different dimension) and that they can still fight back, which I don't think it's enough to really justify it imo (just because you can still TP someone across an entire multiverse, doesn't mean that going that isn't self-BFR, as a hypothetical example. This would follow the same logic), so honestly I'm kinda skeptical about this even being allowed in the first place, but obviously, as I've shown, I have my workarounds either way.
You never argued it wouldn't work nor is there an argument why it wouldn't work. You stated Mantis won't use it regardless of plot, which means you'll need to use plot to justify that (ha). There isn't an argument of Mantis precog not working as I've shown it works hrs and months in advance.
I meant in terms of whether she would spread the word, not so much it not working period. You're misinterpreting what I'm trying to say, it's obvious what I'm referring to when I say it 'won't work'.
Conclusion:
Honestly not much has changed since the beginning. To be frank, Kirby has everything he needs in order to win this duel, and with Darkrai suppling Illusions and Mewtwo's blinding speeds, it's only a matter of time before I take this.
Kirby has dealt with Mirror based opponents before, and he can do it again
Your attempt at showing my members having internal organs fell flat on it's face, removing internal TK from the equation, once again greatly limiting what Nate can do to my team
Scaling to Galacta Knight gives Kirby the means to break into the mirror dimension and get out just as easily
Nate still gets absorbed, not BFRd
Mirror Master seemingly has no means to out Darkrai's Illusion, so it can sit back and make them work wonders whilst it stays intangible
Mantis' precog will only get you so far when I have an out for seemingly everything you have, and she doesn't seem to have an out to Illusions, making her offense kinda useless.
Honestly, not really seeing many angles where you win this
I confirmed with ET (ask him if you must) that prep does not come under full knowledge, so their's still plenty of stuff Mantis wouldn't know about e.g. wether or not amps are even applied, the location my team decide to start in, what the Illusion Darkrai'll setup looks like, the power Kirby starts with etc, leaving some open holes that can potentially be exploited in this case. And keep in mind Kirby will not be using every power (dudes got like 30+ of them), so their's lots of variables in his case.
I know how the perks works, I'm mentioning Mantis' abilities working alongside the perk. Mantis an see multiple futures even ones that work against the future she's actively pursuing. So in a fight with prep she would know that certain things would and wouldn't work from the get go.
To put in simpler terms in a debate your team has to commit to a strat with little room for deviation. So with foreknowledge of that my team will commit to one where nothing their opponents do work.
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This would have to be a case of Mantis being able to tell the other what part of the plan changed in whatever happens to her teammates fast enough before they either get absorb in Nate's case, or slammed into oblivion in Evan's (more on them at a later date), which without any speed feats, I severely doubt.
My team's prep takes into consideration a speed blitz that's basic planning and they have full knowledge with precog to understand the difference in all abilities. Nate simply would have no reason to care about a blitz. Working in my team's favor of him being the focus and them being the distraction.
This is probably the weirdest part of the debate tbh, and whilst it's unfortunately isn't anything I can just put a hard 'no' button on, but ultimately, I hopefully should be able to convey that even with the precog, your team doesn't really have anything that my team isn't prepared for in some form or fashion, so ultimately, whilst I'll concede that this exists, wether or not you can do anything with it is an entirely different issue.
Concession accepted. Whether or not they can do anything is entirely the reason for this debate, keep up.
This was never my be-all-end-all plan for this fight, just simply another alternative that my team could go through with. It's hardly illogical in a no knowledge situation to come up with. And again, to emphasise, this wasn't my main idea, given how I'll be defending Kirby's dimension busting and Darkrai's Illusions shortly, this is merely something Mewtwo can do.
I don't think you understand not only are you changing things that doesn't fit with what you're currently debating. You're also changing things that contradicts what you're debating in a way neither can be debated so one of them would have to be abandoned. I for one am not in favor of abandoning the current debate for a whole new one. What I'm stating is this replies we've racked up until know would be useless if important details changed mid battle based on how we felt about the way we started.
It wouldn't be fair to you if I stated Evan blinded your team, while Mantis beat them down in the mirror dimension, and Nate finished them off by teleporting them into the sun. Because now where in my debate have I mentioned Nate using offensive teleportation or Evan doing pretty much anything in regards to the fight on the battlefield ( mirror dimension is another thing).
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I literally state that I may add things to prep in the future within my opener, so nothing I didn't account for, nor nothing you couldn't.
I account for things by litteral building a team around it, you on the other hand have opted for a solution that shows you're incapable of of doing that much.
It was this exact scenario that I was concerned about, to which the issue being is that neither of the feats provided where anywhere close to a planetary scale (and scaling this power off of TK/TP feels off given they're entirely separate things), so it makes me doubt Nate could engulf an entire planet in glass. You could argue he will do it overtime, but then comes the question both wether or not he can transmute something as large as, say, a mountain, as well as wether or not he has the speed to do it within the time limit, and given that this would require pretty potent travel speed, given how he'd have to speed past the entire planet whilst actively transmuting it (something you've yet to show in any capacity), I'd like to see if he could.
See you're misunderstanding and overreaching on what I stated. I never stated Nate would be glassing the whole planet, I stated he would be glassing large secontions. Which isn't hard since he has 2hrs to do so and teleportation. Nate could easily glass a section the size of australia but that's excess. Glassing a dozen or more sections the size of texas and keeping the fight above them would be much simpler.
Transmuting sand into glass isn't necessary all you need to create glass using sand is heat and pressure. You'd have to be completely ignorant of Nate to state he can't flatten sand over an area the size of texas into glass. I also made note that it doesn't need to be full on glass just slightly reflective. In the scan below he's only using puddles, which is also backed by the fact that even can connect character's eyes to the mirror dimension.
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Well that's on you to show his response, not like I'm going to go out my way and show it for you.
Here is his response.
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I imagine it's only under very specific circumstances and not just "hey, this kid's strong, let's team up real quick!"
This panel for Evan you posted in particular (whose basically the linchpin of your strategy) actually illustrates my point pretty well. Under normal circumstances, it seems like he would've done all of this by himself, but he only teamed up with Flash because he had to, not because he wanted to, and even with full knowledge, that doesn't necessarily negate the chance of them running off solo assuming they can win just fine by themselves (it seemed Evan had basic knowledge here at the very least, if not moreso).
Since Mantis is giving my team a clear understanding of how to win Evan would have no reason to not even do the basics. Plus my team is mind linked so they have no reason to wander off or doubt each other.
Also that scan is Evan triking Wally to find his ex.
Mantis doesn't exactly strike me as the type of girl who can lead a duo of crazy people, so unless you provide proof that she can keep them in check, still not entirely convinced.
What strikes you doesn't matter, I'm sure there are a lot of things that fly right past you.
Fair enough, but this kinda shows that Mantis is more than willing to sacrifice players in order to win a game, something your team can't really afford to do.
But nowhere in this debate will that come up on both points.
Fortunately for me, this isn't the first time one of Kirby's opponents have used mirror based shenanigans.
Another enemy Kirby has defeated is Dark Meta Knight (note that in Amazing Mirror, Kirby is split into 4 versions of himself, so it was hardly his standard self).
Who in turn has shown the ability to jump in between mirrors, in a manner similar to how Evan seems to (albeit not 1-to-1, but my point remains consistent nonetheless), so it's not as if Kirby hasn't dealt with mirror based opponents before, and would give him the idea to at least attack the reflection itself, allowing him to bust through.
Attacking the mirror doesn't equate to busting into a dimension at all, combine that fact with the fact that what you are arguing kirby doing is is slicing open a dimension not attacking it. But the feat you're scaling to Kirby isn't something kirby can do to enter the mirror dimension since it slices open a portal to a specific dimension.
Well it's not like he's doing much back to Kirby (undoubtedly his main opponent), the best he can do as far as I can tell is TK, to which Kirby has survived far worse as I've already shown and can power right through it.
Nate will be the focus of Kirby's attention 99.9% of the time, so having the time and mind set to do anything else is rather implausible.
Absorbing Nate would do nothing but it's also not allowed.
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Who'd be seeing nothing but an Illusion thanks to Darkrai, and be essentially punching air, as I've established previously, so not really accounting for much. This will also give Kirby plenty of time to blitz and absorb Nate.
Your team's perk is mental immunity it doesn't mean they can't be sense via telepathy illusion will do nothing. All of them will be dispelled by TK or ignored via their lack of mind.
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Absorption was the first counter in this entire debate you brought up to counter Nate. But not only is it not allowed, it's hard countered by teleportation.
Gallery
Your only counter isn't even allowed, smh. Some of you have never debate against an intangible versatile herald tier and it shows.
Proof to say Kirby is actually dumb? I never said he was stupid, just incredibly gullible, which isn't the same thing, and since you've shown nothing to prove your stance Kirby's lower intelligence levels, instead opting to straw-maning the gullibility part I mentioned, I find it hard to believe that Kirby wouldn't understand what Evan's trying based on his history with mirrors.
I think you're getting beside the point completely. No matter what you think of Kirby he isn't smart enough to execute any complex strat at all. You first have to argue Kirby puts two and two together about a power he remember then one he knows nothing about. Not looking good for him but lets say he isn't a total idiot and figures this out over time, plausible. But this all breaks down at the next step of this. Considering now that he has that info his first instinct would be to break the mirrors, but you're stating he ignores that and pulls out an attack he's never used. Using said attack with such precision that he circumvents it's original purpose of spawning a laser but instead opens a dimension he doesn't even know is a dimension.
At this point you're no even considering what Kirby would do when pressed with a situation such as this. You're out write narrating how Kirby should react so your team wins. At that point it's all opinion and has very little plausibility for your character to work that way.
How does one TK illusions away? Just because you crush the area doesn't mean the illusions themselves would disappear. And Darkrai will be staying intangible, letting the clones do the manual work, so the Illusion will stay up just fine, leaving Evan and Mantis still crippled.
If the illusions isn't light manipulation and have no physical presence then how would they register to a mirror? You stated yourself that the illusion will confuse Evan and Mantis in the mirror dimension. Anything that can interact with Evan's mirrors would easily be dispelled by Nate's TK. If they're ghost or a psych illusion they wouldn't show up on a mirror or have any telepathic effects on characters in another dimension.
You're going to really need to do a better job of explaining this if you want it to be relevant.
I'll address this in a bit, but for a quick primer, Kirby can essentially skip the bfr stage and go straight to the absorption.
Addressed.
Following Mewtwo just lets Kirby run off and promptly take care of Evan and Mantis, so fine by me, especially since Nate has no speed feats even close to Mewtwo's level base don what you've shown (i.e. nothing).
So your team's way of winning this fight is to run away and never address Nate. I don't think this tourney has a pacifist ending. Speed won't net your team a win here since Nate doesn't tire, sleep or eat. At best you can argue a stalemate against as of now.
Nah, neither of those sources are canon. The one referring to Mewtwo is from Super Smash Bros. Melee, a crossover fighting game between various Nintendo franchises, which obviously has no business being canon. And as for Kirby, your own source states "it is not official from Nintendo.", so both of these sources are completely shot in the foot and thus don't debunk my point. I'm aware that the source may have been edited after you found it, but with no other proof to say Kirby having a brain and how I clearly state beings like Marx are unlikely to have one, their's more evidence going for my side rather than yours in this case.
I can concede that there isn't any official statements on the anatomy of your characters. But that doesn't stop Nate from using his TK in any event. Nate would just ramp up his attack until he found something that works as he has done before.
Hybrid begin an alien had a healing factor that could pull his atoms back together. When Nate fought hybrid he started with the standard way of blasting him and restaining him with TK but that didn't work nor did electrocution. So he once again disintegrated hybrid into dust.
Gallery
There is also the time Nate fight Sinister a character he knew could heal from the standard assault so he opted at a level he couldn't hell from.
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I've shown Nate's TK working on a molecular level. While your team does have a perk against transmutation it won't save them as this doesn't constitute as transmutation. Even if this was transmutation indirect molecular attacks are allowed the same way a molecular cutting sword would be.
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Kirby ain't BFRing Nate, he'd instead of storing him in his stomach dimension, he'd go straight for absorbing him and attempt to copy his powers, and whilst this won't give him Nate's powers unfortunately, it'd still count as a victory given Nate will still be absorbed, and therefore a dead-man. Think of it as Kirby skipping the dimension phase and going straight for the 'copying', minus the actual power copying.
Kirby wouldn't even be allowed to put Nate in his stomach dimension so he wouldn't even get far enough into the process of absorbing him. Not that he would have any lasting effects nate has created himself a new body.
Gallery
Also whilst we're on the topic, there's something I'd like to bring up. Wouldn't Evan and Mantis going to the mirror dimension count as self-bfr? If being stuck in Kirby's stomach counts as bfr, then the only real difference between Kirby and Evan's dimension beyond the mechanics of the dimension itself (which shouldn't matter given it'd still be a different dimension) and that they can still fight back, which I don't think it's enough to really justify it imo (just because you can still TP someone across an entire multiverse, doesn't mean that going that isn't self-BFR, as a hypothetical example. This would follow the same logic), so honestly I'm kinda skeptical about this even being allowed in the first place, but obviously, as I've shown, I have my workarounds either way.
Luckily for me my strat has been approved.
Done. MI, we doing 3 posts, right?
That's up to you since I have the privilege to have the closing post, as I see it if you reply I'll reply.
know how the perks works, I'm mentioning Mantis' abilities working alongside the perk. Mantis can see multiple futures even ones that work against the future she's actively pursuing. So in a fight with prep she would know that certain things would and wouldn't work from the get go. To put in simpler terms in a debate your team has to commit to a strat with little room for deviation. So with foreknowledge of that my team will commit to one where nothing their opponents do work.
Evidently, thanks to the scan you showed the scan you showed, things don't always go as the script says so, so their's still always a possibility of something being shown that doesn't happen.
My team's prep takes into consideration a speed blitz that's basic planning and they have full knowledge with precog to understand the difference in all abilities. Nate simply would have no reason to care about a blitz. Working in my team's favour of him being the focus and them being the distraction.
Why won't he care when he's so grossly outclassed in speed to the point of a blitz being all but guaranteed? It's not like you put him in the mirror dimension or nothing, he's wide open ready for the pickings.
I don't think you understand not only are you changing things that doesn't fit with what you're currently debating. You're also changing things that contradicts what you're debating in a way neither can be debated so one of them would have to be abandoned. I for one am not in favor of abandoning the current debate for a whole new one. What I'm stating is this replies we've racked up until know would be useless if important details changed mid battle based on how we felt about the way we started.
That'd be relevant, expect the main part of my prep barely involves Mewtwo, it's Darkrai's Illusions that truly matter with my prep, once Mewtwo has applied it's amp, it's job is done.
It wouldn't be fair to you if I stated Evan blinded your team, while Mantis beat them down in the mirror dimension, and Nate finished them off by teleporting them into the sun. Because now where in my debate have I mentioned Nate using offensive teleportation or Evan doing pretty much anything in regards to the fight on the battlefield ( mirror dimension is another thing).
In that instance, it adds a major pert of the debate and adds a whole new layer to the debate that wasn't present before. Mewtwo teleporting to space doesn't really change anything of note, whilst this certainly does.
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Pokemon Adventures Chapter 285 & Web of Spiderman (2009) #9 respectively
And regarding the blinding thing itself is quite annoying, I have my outs, since Mewtwo's ability to sense people and Kirby's spider sense perk, which has let Peter fight against invisible opponents can allow them to fight back even without sight. And again, Evan won't be able to even see where the team is thanks to Darkrai's illusions, so how is he going to blind them in the first place?
Also might as well quickly cover your backup plan just to cover all the bases, Mantis and Evan won't be able to see my team to apply these affects thanks to the illusion, and you'd, as you've stated yourself, need to show Nate offensive Teleporting people in-character. Also, actual speed feats that'd let him reach Kirby before he gets devoured.
I account for things by litteral building a team around it, you on the other hand have opted for a solution that shows you're incapable of of doing that much.
A solution which isn't even my main way of dealing with you, and said main way doesn't involve Mewtwo in any way. Quite frankly, Mewtwo doesn't even need to be in this fight, I can win fine without it, so nothing contradicts my original plan. You're acting like I'm completing changing ideas when I'm not, simply giving Mewtwo (and of course Kirby if he decides to follow suit) something to do whilst the main part (i.e. Darkrai's clones, illusions and all that jazz) does it's own thing, it doesn't the grand scheme of things, meanwhilst the second plan you came up with nothing in common with your first beyond Mantis. 2 entirely different scales of change.
See you're misunderstanding and overreaching on what I stated. I never stated Nate would be glassing the whole planet, I stated he would be glassing large secontions. Which isn't hard since he has 2hrs to do so and teleportation. Nate could easily glass a section the size of australia but that's excess. Glassing a dozen or more sections the size of texas and keeping the fight above them would be much simpler.
Which'd get completely screwed over if Mewtwo & Kirby decide to move. (keep in mind Mewtwo can teleport incredibly large distances to), so Evan would be extra screwed should Nate only transmute a certain part of the planet. Hell even without prep being considered, considering the speeds Kirby & Mewtwo operate at, it'd hardly be a surprise that (assuming Nate can keep up, which he can't) the fight would go beyond the transmuted areas.
Transmuting sand into glass isn't necessary all you need to create glass using sand is heat and pressure. You'd have to be completely ignorant of Nate to state he can't flatten sand over an area the size of texas into glass. I also made note that it doesn't need to be full on glass just slightly reflective. In the scan below he's only using puddles, which is also backed by the fact that even can connect character's eyes to the mirror dimension.
It's not what he transmute that bothers me and it never has been, nor was it the substance he transmuted the parts into. It's the AOE that was the problem and how at some point he'd have trouble transmuting bigger things. So not sure why you brought this up.
Since Mantis is giving my team a clear understanding of how to win Evan would have no reason to not even do the basics.
And Evan & Nate would believe her because, why exactly? At least according to your posts so far, you have telepathic communication, not straight up thought reading, so unless you can prove otherwise, all Evan & Nate have to go on is Mantis' word.
Plus my team is mind linked so they have no reason to wander off or doubt each other.
So they talk to each other telepathically therefore they are immediteadly buddy-buddy? Pretty sure that's not how it works.
Also that scan is Evan tricking Wally to find his ex.
That honestly just proves my point even moreso, Evan intentionally manipulating the others in order to do things the way he wants, instead of actually being co-operative in order to achieve a goal even more easily.
What strikes you doesn't matter, I'm sure there are a lot of things that fly right past you.
So you're not even going to try and counter what I said? Concession accepted regarding this part.
Attacking the mirror doesn't equate to busting into a dimension at all,
It'll be a by-product of Kirby attacking the reflection, given how Kirby does it via raw strength, it'll crack the mirror and open the way into the dimension at the same time.
combine that fact with the fact that what you are arguing kirby doing is is slicing open a dimension not attacking it.
I'm lost, what's the difference in this case? Since Galacta Knight did it via raw strength I'm not sure why not having a sword would matter.
Besides, Kirby can access his sword ability (or the even more powerful Ultra Sword, if he's feeling spicy) at any time thanks to his stomach dimension, as I showed the ability in question during my opener, so not an issue without an out.
But the feat you're scaling to Kirby isn't something kirby can do to enter the mirror dimension since it slices open a portal to a specific dimension.
Considering the alternate dimension is right in his face (Mirror Master is still visible after all, their's a pocket dimension staring Kirby down), there's a clear pocket dimension he can break through. Also what proof is there that the portal Galacta Knight was to a very specific dimension, and what's stopping him from opening portals to other dimensions? Unlike Flash, their's nothing suggests that Galacta can only travel to that one dimension beyond head-canon, and we know other characters in Kirby's verse can create dimensional rifts without a hitch/piece of context, so it's hardly unfeasible Galacta couldn't do the same, given his demi-god tier status within the verse.
Nate will be the focus of Kirby's attention 99.9% of the time, so having the time and mind set to do anything else is rather implausible.
Fine by me really, just let's him take care of Nate first whilst Mantis and Evan are stuck dealing with an Illusion. Not like it'll take long.
Absorbing Nate would do nothing but it's also not allowed.
Their's no rule against absorption, it's power copying that isn't allowed.
Kirby Super Star
I can count across 90% of the games, a load of anime episodes and regarding dozens of different types of enemies that Kirby can absorb and get no Copy Ability from, so it's hardly unheard of for Kirby to absorb something and not reap any benefits. So no matter what angle you look at it, absorption is fine, so long as I don't get a power (which I've stated Kirby won't get from the very beginning. Forget straw-manning me, this is just flat out not listening to what I'm saying).
Your team's perk is mental immunity it doesn't mean they can't be sense via telepathy illusion will do nothing. All of them will be dispelled by TK or ignored via their lack of mind.
Sure, Nate can see through fine, but the illusions aren't meant for him, their for Mantis and Evan to get confused by, so not all that relevant since Darkrai will be safe and intangible. Nate won't have time to dispel the Illusion before he gets blitzed into next week anywhos.
Absorption was the first counter in this entire debate you brought up to counter Nate. But not only is it not allowed, it's hard countered by teleportation. Your only counter isn't even allowed, smh. Some of you have never debate against an intangible versatile herald tier and it shows.
Already addressed the against the rules thing, but how exactly does teleportation stop you from being absorbed? Once you're absorbed their's hardly any turning back.
Kirby Star Allies
It also helps that the even common fodder in the Kirby games have shown the ability to teleport, let alone other beings like Marx, Magalor, Nightmare and many other big players in Kirby that can teleport, so it's hardly something Kirby's inexperienced in dealing with time and time again. And unlike Nate here, they actually use said teleporting here in combat situations in-character.
I think you're getting beside the point completely. No matter what you think of Kirby he isn't smart enough to execute any complex strat at all. You first have to argue Kirby puts two and two together about a power he remember then one he knows nothing about.
So in other words, Remember that Dark Meta Knight does in fact exist and have eyes to see that he functions much like Evan does?
Not looking good for him but lets say he isn't a total idiot and figures this out over time, plausible. But this all breaks down at the next step of this. Considering now that he has that info his first instinct would be to break the mirrors, but you're stating he ignores that and pulls out an attack he's never used.
What 'attack' are you referring to? I banged on about the fact that Galacta Knight uses pure strength, no special techniques or nothing (saying he does use a special technique is head-canon, as already established and something you've seemingly conceded towards). Now you're just making stuff up.
Using said attack with such precision that he circumvents it's original purpose of spawning a laser but instead opens a dimension he doesn't even know is a dimension.
And again, as I've said previously, what was stopping Galacta Knight from going into said dimensional hole? It's clear that he could've should the situation called for it, & Kirby doesn't have to do anything fancy whatsoever in order to open the portal, literally just punch the glass and a way through is cleared, and it's not like he hasn't jumped through other transdimensional portals before without a care (see Return to Dreamland).
At this point you're no even considering what Kirby would do when pressed with a situation such as this. You're out write narrating how Kirby should react so your team wins. At that point it's all opinion and has very little plausibility for your character to work that way.
Well then you tell me, how else would he react to seeing a power similar to an opponent he's beaten not once, but twice (in Amazing Mirror & Triple Deluxe), who uses similar powers to the opponent he's currently facing? You're only argument is that 'he'd forget/wouldn't put 2 and 2 together', which you've shown no proof of that happening with Kirby. Another form of baseless head-canon, without a shred of actual evidence backing it up, originating from the straw-manning you did of Kirby's gullibility.
If the illusions isn't light manipulation and have no physical presence then how would they register to a mirror? You stated yourself that the illusion will confuse Evan and Mantis in the mirror dimension. Anything that can interact with Evan's mirrors would easily be dispelled by Nate's TK. If they're ghost or a psych illusion they wouldn't show up on a mirror or have any telepathic effects on characters in another dimension. You're going to really need to do a better job of explaining this if you want it to be relevant.
Fortunately for me, the Illusion has the feats to out this claim perfectly.
Pokemon Diamond & Pearl: Cresselia Pokedex Entry
I mentioned in the original scan that the Illusion affected both the player Pokemon and their partner, but their was another Pokemon present that I neglected to bring attention to, Cresselia, a Legendary Pokemon affected by the trickery Darkrai caused, which according to the Pokedex releases shiny particles (i.e. involve some kind of light) from it's wings.
If the Illusion don't affect light as you seem to imply, then the particles would still show, would they not? But that's the thing, they never showed and Cresselia's entire body (which would obviously include it's wings) was caught up in Darkrai's Illusion. This should show that Darkrai's Illusion do affect light itself, as if it didn't, the particles Cresselia releases would be visible regardless of the illusion (they would be, for lack of a better term, 'leaking' out of the Illusion). And whilst I'll admit it's unclear wether or not the illusions have physical presence, hiding shiny particles will be more than enough to say that it will still affect the mirrors, and thus will still affect Mantis and Evan.
Addressed.
Ditto.
So your team's way of winning this fight is to run away and never address Nate. I don't think this tourney has a pacifist ending. Speed won't net your team a win here since Nate doesn't tire, sleep or eat. At best you can argue a stalemate against as of now.
No, in that instance Kirby will deal with Mantis and Evan before Nate, whilst Mewtwo acts as a distraction. I'm not running away, just leaving him for later. You mind not twisting my words into a French pretzel thanks? Especially since it's only Mewtwo who will be distracting Nate if my team decides to go that route.
Hell, literally based on what I said here I'm not running away from Nate since Mewtwo would be with him, so not only are you putting words in my mouth, you're also blatantly wrong in what I was trying to get at.
I can concede that there isn't any official statements on the anatomy of your characters. But that doesn't stop Nate from using his TK in any event. Nate would just ramp up his attack until he found something that works as he has done before.
Before or after he gets blitzed into next week? The moment Kirby even thinks about going after Nate, the latter doesn't have anything to suggest he can react to an absorption. And any TK Nate throws at him Kirby can easily overpower thanks to his planetary+ lifting strength you didn't even try to counter.
Hybrid begin an alien had a healing factor that could pull his atoms back together. When Nate fought hybrid he started with the standard way of blasting him and restaining him with TK but that didn't work nor did electrocution. So he once again disintegrated hybrid into dust. There is also the time Nate fight Sinister a character he knew could heal from the standard assault so he opted at a level he couldn't hell from.
Nothing Hypernova can't just absorb just fine. It's shown the ability to eat giant lasers before, shown in my opener, so it can do it again too just fine, and the ability to deal with healing factors shouldn't change that.
I've shown Nate's TK working on a molecular level. While your team does have a perk against transmutation it won't save them as this doesn't constitute as transmutation. Even if this was transmutation indirect molecular attacks are allowed the same way a molecular cutting sword would be.
That'd still be affecting molecules though right? Just because it does so indirectly doesn't change that, and a molecule cutting sword would fall under this rule all the same.
Kirby wouldn't even be allowed to put Nate in his stomach dimension so he wouldn't even get far enough into the process of absorbing him. Not that he would have any lasting effects nate has created himself a new body.
What 'process'? It's been shown that the moment Kirby eats you, you're as good as done.
Unless their's some long process that goes into devouring opponents that you can show (good luck finding that tho). And again, Nate won't be stored into his pocket dimension, simply absorbed on the spot.
Kirby Right Back at Ya Episode 1
Hell, Kirby's shown the ability to not even need to swallow in order to absorb his enemies (shown by him gaining a power here whilst his 'cheeks' clearly still having the fireballs stored, but again, gaining a power won't happen, he'll absorb Nate, just not gain a power, this has happened before, in both game as previously highlighted & the anime), showing the moment Nate enters Kirby's stomach, he can't exactly just teleport out.
Routes That This Battle Can go:
Now with this fight, there are 2 ways this can go as far as I can tell, and it all depends on who my team decides to go after first, but wither way it ends in my victory.
Nate Grey:
This is the more likely opponent they will go after first given he'd be right in view and not hiding behind a mirror dimension, but this won't take long since simply put, Nate can't do jack to Kirby.
Not only does he gets speed-blitzed into next week thanks to his non-existent speed (something you've proven thanks to showing literally nothing), but even if he could tag Kirby, TP & Transmutation abilities are nullified by my perks, and his TK is nothing Kirby can't overpower thanks to his insane lifting strength and durability which you never even tried to counteract.
And to seal the deal, Kirby's absorption is the perfect means to take Nate out, with your main counter being attempting to abuse a rule which i was not only never intending to break in the first place (one of the multiple of straw-man fallacies you attempted during this debate), but is an incident Kirby has already dealt with and have counters towards your claims, as he has dealt with teleporters.
So combined with Mewtwo as a blindingly fast distraction as a distraction (another opponent Nate can't tag or even perceive in motion tbh), and your highest priced character gets taken out in a matter of moments worth no way to defend himself.
And meanwhilst this is happening, due to the rushdown Kirby will pull on Nate, the latter won't have the time to dispel the Illusions (assuming he can even hit the intangible Darkrai, of which you've shown nothing saying that he could, since he'd need to hit it in order to remove it from the equation), Mantis and Evan will be thinking they are hurting Kirby & the gang, but are instead are just flailing at the air, waiting to be annihilated.
Also as an aside, your plan involved defending against a blitz, but you left Nate wide open with no added defenses? Strikes me as a bit odd.
Mantis/Mirror Master:
These 2 go hand in hand, since if I can kill one, I get the other one for free. And, given how Mantis and Evan don't have a chance of winning a physicals game and their most potent abilities locked behind my immunities, this boils down to is 1 simply question, can Kirby break into the mirror dimension, to which the answer is a resounding yes, as you've promptly been unable to debunk how Galacta Knight busts through dimension, with you're only counters being baseless speculation with no real proof backing them up, whilst I have done no such deed.
Meanwhilst, Evan and Mantis can't do anything back to me thanks to Darkrai's Illusions blocking everything they can see, blocking put the mirror's view and leaving them hitting nothing but air. This'll give Kirby more than enough time to not only take out Nate, but also break into the mirror dimension that splatter their brains on the floor.
And of course that'd leave Nate by himself, who'd gets annihilated for reasons already stated.
So with this in mind, hopefully you and the voters can see why I think my team wins this.
Conclusion:
You've shown no speed feats whatsoever, so quite frankly Mewtwo & Kirby can completely statueforce all of your members, leaving them no room to react to or even perceive the duo.
You're counters against absorption was quite under whelming. Power Copying isn't allowed, but their's nothing against absorption beyond rules you made up. And Nate doesn't have the speed to even perceive Kirby, let alone tag him with the attacks that Kirby's either immune too thanks to perks, can completely counteract, or will do little damage, if any.
Darkrai's Illusions have affected light before, and thus will affect Evan's mirrors, leaving him and Mantis completely blind to the upcoming onslaught.
Mantis and Evan get oneshot the moment Kirby gets even remotely close.
Kirby has the means to bust into the mirror dimension thanks to scaling and your counters being mostly assumptions with nothing back them up, and they have been countered all the same.
A solid chunk of your arguments throughout this debate where either head-canon, straw-mans, or just blind assumptions with no sign of any actual sources behind it.
All in all, this is my match to win. You're hax squad falls today.
Evidently, thanks to the scan you showed the scan you showed, things don't always go as the script says so, so their's still always a possibility of something being shown that doesn't happen.
No, I still stand by my opening strat. There is little deviation Nate is still using TK, Evan is still going to the mirror dimension, and Mantis is still fighting from their.
Why won't he care when he's so grossly outclassed in speed to the point of a blitz being all but guaranteed? It's not like you put him in the mirror dimension or nothing, he's wide open ready for the pickings.
Nate is intangible I'm sure I've stated this at least once. Nate is psionic energy he's basically a projection taken form.
The only reason Ares could tag nate here is because he exist on every plane of existence. A PIS ability never mentioned again.
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Here is another explanation of Nate's type intangibility. AoA Sinister states the are astral images which only exist on the astral/psionic plane. But even then Nate was able to grab the belt of the guard.
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My team has precog so Nate would know Kirby is blitzing an can't hurt him. So unless Kirby can hurt an energy being made specifically of psionic energy blitzing isn't doing shit here.
That'd be relevant, expect the main part of my prep barely involves Mewtwo, it's Darkrai's Illusions that truly matter with my prep, once Mewtwo has applied it's amp, it's job is done.
We were specifically discussing you changing thing apart of your prep you at no point stated in your prep, the illusions are a different matter.
That'd be relevant, expect the main part of my prep barely involves Mewtwo, it's Darkrai's Illusions that truly matter with my prep, once Mewtwo has applied it's amp, it's job is done.
First off you are having your team move to space in response to my prep, something your teams knows nothing about. For reasons you can't explain on why your characters would even think to do that. All the while you're trying to call my team out for cooperation which isn't a factor since they have precog.
Changing your team's starting position means they would never find Evan or Mantis. Since they would be searching for them out of range to ever find them. All they would see are giant mirrors in the distance.
In that instance, it adds a major pert of the debate and adds a whole new layer to the debate that wasn't present before. Mewtwo teleporting to space doesn't really change anything of note, whilst this certainly does.
It's the same either way, there are certainly points I would change if your team starts in a different location. Such as this blitzing, Darkrai's shadow intangibility, and Mewtwo surviving in space. You know the little things that majorly affects your strategy.
And regarding the blinding thing itself is quite annoying, I have my outs, since Mewtwo's ability to sense people and Kirby's spider sense perk, which has let Peter fight against invisible opponents can allow them to fight back even without sight. And again, Evan won't be able to even see where the team is thanks to Darkrai's illusions, so how is he going to blind them in the first place?
Also might as well quickly cover your backup plan just to cover all the bases, Mantis and Evan won't be able to see my team to apply these affects thanks to the illusion, and you'd, as you've stated yourself, need to show Nate offensive Teleporting people in-character. Also, actual speed feats that'd let him reach Kirby before he gets devoured.
This isn't a backup plan in any since of the phrase & doesn't require a response.
A solution which isn't even my main way of dealing with you, and said main way doesn't involve Mewtwo in any way. Quite frankly, Mewtwo doesn't even need to be in this fight, I can win fine without it, so nothing contradicts my original plan. You're acting like I'm completing changing ideas when I'm not, simply giving Mewtwo (and of course Kirby if he decides to follow suit) something to do whilst the main part (i.e. Darkrai's clones, illusions and all that jazz) does it's own thing, it doesn't the grand scheme of things, meanwhilst the second plan you came up with nothing in common with your first beyond Mantis. 2 entirely different scales of change.
What I'm getting at is you're opting for a copout that you have no way of justifying, that's just wrong on principle. There is also the fact that if your team is waiting for Nate to deal with the illusion & clones would give Nate time to use other abilities. Such as draining Mew Two of his energy (something I've mentioned). Distance won't be a factor as Nate as demonstrated he can do it from the astral plane.
Once again that isn't a plan, that's an example. If I wanted to have a multiple scenarios I could change my strategy and explain it away with precog. But I'd rather be consistent than to throw strats at the screen and hope something sticks.
Which'd get completely screwed over if Mewtwo & Kirby decide to move. (keep in mind Mewtwo can teleport incredibly large distances to), so Evan would be extra screwed should Nate only transmute a certain part of the planet. Hell even without prep being considered, considering the speeds Kirby & Mewtwo operate at, it'd hardly be a surprise that (assuming Nate can keep up, which he can't) the fight would go beyond the transmuted areas.
They is a massive difference between moving away from traps during the battle compared to moving away during prep. While having no knowledge that any of Evan's abilities. I would be fine with you stating your team takes the fight elsewhere to stop being pummeled by mantis. However you stated they would do it during prep while going to great lengths to defend that line of argument.
I've also stated Nate would keep the fight to those locations so to even fight Nate your team would need to come into range.
It's not what he transmute that bothers me and it never has been, nor was it the substance he transmuted the parts into. It's the AOE that was the problem and how at some point he'd have trouble transmuting bigger things. So not sure why you brought this up.
OK so you're fixated on range of TK when I showed Nate TK blasting a planet from space. You want more range here is a weaker nate who has been drained of nearly all his energy being used to destroy all of asia. We know it's a weaker Nate because the real one showed up and one shotted her with too much energy for her to absorb.
Gallery
Gallery
And Evan & Nate would believe her because, why exactly? At least according to your posts so far, you have telepathic communication, not straight up thought reading, so unless you can prove otherwise, all Evan & Nate have to go on is Mantis' word.
A PSI link with Nate would allow him to see into her mind. Even when Nate didn't have telepathy he was skilled enough to gleam information from Emma intruding in his mind. So you're basically making up things about my team you don't know.
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So they talk to each other telepathically therefore they are immediteadly buddy-buddy? Pretty sure that's not how it works.
They communicate telepathically about a plan they know will happen through precog. It doesn't require any friendship or trust since they will always know what each other would be thinking and if the future changes in a attempted betrayal.
That honestly just proves my point even moreso, Evan intentionally manipulating the others in order to do things the way he wants, instead of actually being co-operative in order to achieve a goal even more easily.
What is it about precog in my strat that you don't understand. It's a literal vision of the future that will change and update as things does or doesn't go their way with telepathy it's shared.
So you're not even going to try and counter what I said? Concession accepted regarding this part.
That's not how a concession works, and since I'm not sure you know I'll explain it. You would have to present a fact first before I would be required to even give a counterpoint or opposing fact. This however is you ignorant opinion on how a character operates. Although you haven't read enough comics with Mantis to come to such as conclusion.
It'll be a by-product of Kirby attacking the reflection, given how Kirby does it via raw strength, it'll crack the mirror and open the way into the dimension at the same time.
You have in no way proved that the attack used to generate a beam from a different dimension is pure strength. You are grasping at air, we're going to skip straws.
I'm lost, what's the difference in this case? Since Galacta Knight did it via raw strength I'm not sure why not having a sword would matter.
Besides, Kirby can access his sword ability (or the even more powerful Ultra Sword, if he's feeling spicy) at any time thanks to his stomach dimension, as I showed the ability in question during my opener, so not an issue without an out.
I mean he would simply destroy the mirror in the process. Raw strength or not it was only used to summon an attack you don't know how that attack interacts with other abilities. The fact that space was cut so a beam would come through means the character in question had specific intent, which comes down to application of strength aka skill. It's also not like Kirby has used said attack you only came to the conclusion he can be scaling. When you should be trying to prove Kirby has knowledge of said attack.
Considering the alternate dimension is right in his face (Mirror Master is still visible after all, their's a pocket dimension staring Kirby down), there's a clear pocket dimension he can break through. Also what proof is there that the portal Galacta Knight was to a very specific dimension, and what's stopping him from opening portals to other dimensions? Unlike Flash, their's nothing suggests that Galacta can only travel to that one dimension beyond head-canon, and we know other characters in Kirby's verse can create dimensional rifts without a hitch/piece of context, so it's hardly unfeasible Galacta couldn't do the same, given his demi-god tier status within the verse.
Kirby knowing where the enemy is doesn't prove he knows how to reach them.
Wait what, you want me to produce proof of a negative? That's not how this works so you'll have to excuse me I don't feel like explaining the basics.
If this is so common then why not show all these abilities and how Kirby can easily replicate them. Don't show an attack then hit me with some abc logic. I actually thought something substantial would come of it so I gave it the benefit of the doubt an called it scaling.
Fine by me really, just let's him take care of Nate first whilst Mantis and Evan are stuck dealing with an Illusion. Not like it'll take long.
Even if you think Nate can't hurt Kirby he'll certainly outlast him, since kirby needs sleep.
Their's no rule against absorption, it's power copying that isn't allowed.
I can count across 90% of the games, a load of anime episodes and regarding dozens of different types of enemies that Kirby can absorb and get no Copy Ability from, so it's hardly unheard of for Kirby to absorb something and not reap any benefits. So no matter what angle you look at it, absorption is fine, so long as I don't get a power (which I've stated Kirby won't get from the very beginning. Forget straw-manning me, this is just flat out not listening to what I'm saying).
Kirby's absorption/copying works through BFR which isn't allowed.
Sure, Nate can see through fine, but the illusions aren't meant for him, their for Mantis and Evan to get confused by, so not all that relevant since Darkrai will be safe and intangible. Nate won't have time to dispel the Illusion before he gets blitzed into next week anywhos.
Nate and his team are TP linked so that's puts the illusions argument to rest.
Already addressed the against the rules thing, but how exactly does teleportation stop you from being absorbed? Once you're absorbed their's hardly any turning back.
It also helps that the even common fodder in the Kirby games have shown the ability to teleport, let alone other beings like Marx, Magalor, Nightmare and many other big players in Kirby that can teleport, so it's hardly something Kirby's inexperienced in dealing with time and time again. And unlike Nate here, they actually use said teleporting here in combat situations in-character.
You seem to be forgetting eating nate's energy body will do nothing. Nate was able to exist for year in characters mind without the need for a body and when his energy body dispersed he when right back to being pure thought. And due to him being weakened having just received himself he uses other physics energy to create a new body. But that's something he doesn't have to worry about since at full power his energy dwarfs every other physic on earth.
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You are also ignoring scale Nate can teleport between dimension and through the multiverse. Comparing his teleportation to fodder is an insult and you know that.
So in other words, Remember that Dark Meta Knight does in fact exist and have eyes to see that he functions much like Evan does?
You don't make a lick of sense here, and I should know a thing or two about butchering sentences.
What 'attack' are you referring to? I banged on about the fact that Galacta Knight uses pure strength, no special techniques or nothing (saying he does use a special technique is head-canon, as already established and something you've seemingly conceded towards). Now you're just making stuff up.
Poor thing doesn't remember his own feats posted. I'll be nice and help him out.
Kirby Planet Robobot
Now the reason that's impressive is because Meta Knight has his own feat of defeating Galacta Knight, someone who as shown above, is strong enough to quite literally cut a hole in the fabric of reality, summoning a giant laser during the middle of a fight.
Do I need to explain summoning a laser is an attack. That's not teleportation in any stretch nor does it prove he can cut his way into any dimension. On top of that you failed to prove the most basic thing that being Kirby can do this also.
And again, as I've said previously, what was stopping Galacta Knight from going into said dimensional hole? It's clear that he could've should the situation called for it, & Kirby doesn't have to do anything fancy whatsoever in order to open the portal, literally just punch the glass and a way through is cleared, and it's not like he hasn't jumped through other transdimensional portals before without a care (see Return to Dreamland).
What's stopping him? I don't know but how does that prove he can use it to teleport or enter other dimensions? Be logical here we've seen it be used to spawn a laser, we know it has been used to spawn a attack. But yet since it hasn't shown any limits to cutting it should cut anything allowing him unrestricted teleportation. Does that make sense to you? I mean put any other character in that place and you'll start to see how contrived this line of reasoning is.
You really using Kirby jumping into a portal as proof of anything? Oh no he's grasping at photons.
Well then you tell me, how else would he react to seeing a power similar to an opponent he's beaten not once, but twice (in Amazing Mirror & Triple Deluxe), who uses similar powers to the opponent he's currently facing? You're only argument is that 'he'd forget/wouldn't put 2 and 2 together', which you've shown no proof of that happening with Kirby. Another form of baseless head-canon, without a shred of actual evidence backing it up, originating from the straw-manning you did of Kirby's gullibility.
I would but I'm not the one repping Kirby. Well then again I think I can help answer so I'll give it a try.
Kirby would react the same way he did in those games and at no point did you show him attempting to break into a dimension. The only thing you've shown was the character splitting into mirrors and attacking physically. Evan's mirrors allow Mantis to attack reflections. So in any event he catches on and attacks Evan and Mantis in the mirrors. Through the use of basic reasoning we should assume the scenario with the least amount of assumptions is the most plausible one.
A) Kirby attack the mirrors and breaks them
Kirby attacks the mirrors using brute strength punching a hole in space. Which opens up to the mirror dimension allowing him to seize his enemies.
I going with A final answer, I hoped that answered your question.
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I mentioned in the original scan that the Illusion affected both the player Pokemon and their partner, but their was another Pokemon present that I neglected to bring attention to, Cresselia, a Legendary Pokemon affected by the trickery Darkrai caused, which according to the Pokedex releases shiny particles (i.e. involve some kind of light) from it's wings.
If the Illusion don't affect light as you seem to imply, then the particles would still show, would they not? But that's the thing, they never showed and Cresselia's entire body (which would obviously include it's wings) was caught up in Darkrai's Illusion. This should show that Darkrai's Illusion do affect light itself, as if it didn't, the particles Cresselia releases would be visible regardless of the illusion (they would be, for lack of a better term, 'leaking' out of the Illusion). And whilst I'll admit it's unclear wether or not the illusions have physical presence, hiding shiny particles will be more than enough to say that it will still affect the mirrors, and thus will still affect Mantis and Evan.
When I stated interact I meant reflect. As in anything that can reflect off a mirror would be blown away by. But it seems your implying something different. No matter I'll show nate can affect light and earth gravity with TK and press on. Which by the way means he can affect illusions made of light an other particles on that scale.
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No, in that instance Kirby will deal with Mantis and Evan before Nate, whilst Mewtwo acts as a distraction. I'm not running away, just leaving him for later. You mind not twisting my words into a French pretzel thanks? Especially since it's only Mewtwo who will be distracting Nate if my team decides to go that route.
Hell, literally based on what I said here I'm not running away from Nate since Mewtwo would be with him, so not only are you putting words in my mouth, you're also blatantly wrong in what I was trying to get at.
Mewtwo won't serve as a distraction for in any scenario having only TK and TP to work with. While Nate can drain him, and over power him with TK. So all of Mewtwo options for dealing with Nate would be excused from the get go. Speed blitzing is your only argument thus far but that only mean Mewtwo will just tire himself out faster.
Before or after he gets blitzed into next week? The moment Kirby even thinks about going after Nate, the latter doesn't have anything to suggest he can react to an absorption. And any TK Nate throws at him Kirby can easily overpower thanks to his planetary+ lifting strength you didn't even try to counter.
Ignoring the first part of you statement and addressing the second part. Don't worry I'll address it below. Why would I try to counter something that isn't apart of my strat and has no bearing on molecular TK. What is Kirby going to do flex his molecules back together?
This is the benefit of having a strategy, you can cut out reply to fluff.
Nothing Hypernova can't just absorb just fine. It's shown the ability to eat giant lasers before, shown in my opener, so it can do it again too just fine, and the ability to deal with healing factors shouldn't change that.
Kirby can eat internal TK? Hmmm interesting tell me more, wait no you had no counter for that. If it weren't the case you wouldnt have opted for my character don't have brains.
That'd still be affecting molecules though right? Just because it does so indirectly doesn't change that, and a molecule cutting sword would fall under this rule all the same.
Are you blind I just showed you it's allowed.
What 'process'? It's been shown that the moment Kirby eats you, you're as good as done.
Unless their's some long process that goes into devouring opponents that you can show (good luck finding that tho). And again, Nate won't be stored into his pocket dimension, simply absorbed on the spot.
Hell, Kirby's shown the ability to not even need to swallow in order to absorb his enemies (shown by him gaining a power here whilst his 'cheeks' clearly still having the fireballs stored, but again, gaining a power won't happen, he'll absorb Nate, just not gain a power, this has happened before, in both game as previously highlighted & the anime), showing the moment Nate enters Kirby's stomach, he can't exactly just teleport out.
You know the part where he eats putting them in dimension stomach then absorbs them.
Funny you should bring up the anime since it's clearly shown Kirby's stomach is a dimension, which means eating Nate is BFR. which would nix the whole process of absorbing Nate.
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But I've also mentioned the ways nate can completely ignore this. Such as teleporting and making a new energy body.
Closing
This was repetitive in a few points but it does cover everything. For my opponent speed was everything but what does speed matter when you can't land your hits. And the whole strategy was to brute force a win against a team with full knowledge, prep and precog. Which factors in a lot more than beating your opponent on the draw. Once you break it down Kirby's only answer to Nate was to eat and absorb him. That wouldn't do much of anything even if you don't consider it against the rules. Kirby is also the one need to even fight Evan and Mantis. But even then Evan's control of the mirror dimension is good enough he could incap Kirby once he's in. Although to get in you would need to give Kirby the benefit of high levels of doubt.
While my strat isn't straight forward it doesn't make as many assumptions that is needed for Kirby. Nate AoE TK blast all the fodder relative to him at the start. From my perspective that's it for Mewtwo and all the clones. But assuming that doesn't put him down Nate would just ramp up his attack with internal TK for incap. But if worse comes to worse and they have no internal organs he can tear their molecules part from the inside out. There was absolutely no counters for this in terms of hax or durability. That put one argument completely in my favor. But it doesn't stop there as Nate doesn't need to eat or sleep since he's no longer tangible. Which means Kirby who regularly sleeps couldn't hope to out last Nate in a contest of stamina. Another argument with no given counters given.
Evan an Mantis was only there to serve as a distraction using the mirror dimension to attack reflections. Which means no matter how much damage they do or don't do their opponents focus will be split (a point brought up). Serving their intended purpose to the letter. This is the most likely choice for them considering Evan's main way of fighting is transmutation and Mantis is hand to hand with TP. Something they would know wouldn't work via precog via perk or lack of flight. It's in character for Evan to retreat to safety and with mirrors tech unique ability to attack reflection it wouldn't take a genius for them to utilize that. Basically bridging the gap while making up for things they lack. With that my team has a telepathic link and precog so that lends even more credibility. Not that this was ever contested.
So all in all I think I've made a plausible case for a physically weaker team to secure a win.
Voting for @mr_ingenuity:. For me the biggest thing that was being discussed was if Nate could be taken out or not. And while Gil did point out he can go for eating Nate reasonable arguments were given for it being considered battlefield removal. Even if it wasn’t, it didn’t matter as Mr I pointed out Nate can exist in people‘s minds and create a new body for himself. Without a way to put down Nate I see Kirby, Mewtwo and Darkrai eventually being put down by Nate‘s team.
Voting for @mr_ingenuity:. For me the biggest thing that was being discussed was if Nate could be taken out or not. And while Gil did point out he can go for eating Nate reasonable arguments were given for it being considered battlefield removal. Even if it wasn’t, it didn’t matter as Mr I pointed out Nate can exist in people‘s minds and create a new body for himself. Without a way to put down Nate I see Kirby, Mewtwo and Darkrai eventually being put down by Nate‘s team.
Pretty much this, but to elaborate, there was a lot of arguments on Gil's side that made no sense. Why the hell are you scaling Galatica Knight to Kirby? Both Meta Knight and Galataca Knight have their own unique movesets and powers.
Just look at Kirby's fights against him, spawninig lightning, creating fire pillars, energy projection? I thought it was obvious as hell that GK slicing a hole in reality to have a laser come out was clearly his own thing considering Kirby has never done anything like it.
Also Gil barely went into Kirby's feats in order to argue his case, regarding transmutations, resistances, or the hypernova ability, he had no counters for Mr. I's prep and kept uselessly attacking it when he knew nothing about the characters involved except maybe Mirror Master
Mr. I could have simply looked up a lot of the abilities Gil mentioned and asked him questions about their credibility, but he didn't feel the need to because he was clearly guiding the debate, and corrected everything his opponent said relating to his posts, called him out on changing plans out of nowhere, and eviscerated his arguments. I felt he could have tried harder.
Gilga could have had my vote if he went into more detailed relating to his characters and stuck with a sound strategy and didn't try to equate the wrong things.
Voting for @mr_ingenuity:. For me the biggest thing that was being discussed was if Nate could be taken out or not. And while Gil did point out he can go for eating Nate reasonable arguments were given for it being considered battlefield removal. Even if it wasn’t, it didn’t matter as Mr I pointed out Nate can exist in people‘s minds and create a new body for himself. Without a way to put down Nate I see Kirby, Mewtwo and Darkrai eventually being put down by Nate‘s team.
Pretty much this, but to elaborate, there was a lot of arguments on Gil's side that made no sense. Why the hell are you scaling Galatica Knight to Kirby? Both Meta Knight and Galataca Knight have their own unique movesets and powers.
Just look at Kirby's fights against him, spawninig lightning, creating fire pillars, energy projection? I thought it was obvious as hell that GK slicing a hole in reality to have a laser come out was clearly his own thing considering Kirby has never done anything like it.
Also Gil barely went into Kirby's feats in order to argue his case, regarding transmutations, resistances, or the hypernova ability, he had no counters for Mr. I's prep and kept uselessly attacking it when he knew nothing about the characters involved except maybe Mirror Master
Mr. I could have simply looked up a lot of the abilities Gil mentioned and asked him questions about their credibility, but he didn't feel the need to because he was clearly guiding the debate, and corrected everything his opponent said relating to his posts, called him out on changing plans out of nowhere, and eviscerated his arguments. I felt he could have tried harder.
Gilga could have had my vote if he went into more detailed relating to his characters and stuck with a sound strategy and didn't try to equate the wrong things.
Pretty much both of these cover everything I could say.
Trying to argue speed when the other guy's team doesn't need it to win isn't exactly sound, and his lack of knowledge about I's teammates (Especially Mantis and Nate, smh) doesn't help matters.
His team is more powerful but Gilga didn't stay on route and I's team clearly got to him considering he changed his plan mid debate, which you really only do when you realise that you've stepped into a problem you haven't considered.
Speed was something that Gilgamesh did a good job featuring in all his posts and was never really answered by his opponent. The only answer for speed was precog, full knowledge and prep. Normally that would be enough to beat a speedsters, but Gilga gave the perfect answer to counter that:
Which'd get completely screwed over if Mewtwo & Kirby decide to move. (keep in mind Mewtwo can teleport incredibly large distances to), so Evan would be extra screwed should Nate only transmute a certain part of the planet. Hell even without prep being considered, considering the speeds Kirby & Mewtwo operate at, it'd hardly be a surprise that (assuming Nate can keep up, which he can't) the fight would go beyond the transmuted areas.
A majority of the opponent's strategy revolved around the use of the Mirror Dimension and while Mantis has precog, the Future is always changing and thus Gilga's response of simply moving to counter their strategy makes perfect sense. Given the lack of speed feats for the other team, I see no reason that Gilga's closing statement wouldn't be 100% accurate:
You've shown no speed feats whatsoever, so quite frankly Mewtwo & Kirby can completely statueforce all of your members, leaving them no room to react to or even perceive the duo.
As I said above, so much of Mr's strategy revolved around using the Mirror Dimension attack that I don't really think I saw a good response to Darkai's illusions other than precog and full knowledge. Again, speed is still a thing. Just because you know what is about to happen, doesn't mean your body can react fast enough to stop it.
Darkrai's Illusions have affected light before, and thus will affect Evan's mirrors, leaving him and Mantis completely blind to the upcoming onslaught.
I've got to agree with the above statement, blocking up the mirror with illusions is an excellent counter and when you combine that with Mewtwo's sensory powers, its a perfect possibly counter-strategy.
I think both of you played at the no BFR rule a little too close (yes, I know, I'm one of talk lol). Kirby's absorption is straight BFR. It literally states, he eats things to into a pocket dimension, that's cut and dry BFR, no question. What I don't understand, is how the Mirror Dimension doesn't count as self BFR? He is literally going to another dimension to fight his opponents from there. I may have missed in the posts (there were a lot) but I didn't see anything about why that wouldn't count as self BFR. These two things pretty much cancelled themselves out in my book so I'm discrediting all those feats.
I think both of you played at the no BFR rule a little too close (yes, I know, I'm one of talk lol). Kirby's absorption is straight BFR. It literally states, he eats things to into a pocket dimension, that's cut and dry BFR, no question. What I don't understand, is how the Mirror Dimension doesn't count as self BFR? He is literally going to another dimension to fight his opponents from there. I may have missed in the posts (there were a lot) but I didn't see anything about why that wouldn't count as self BFR. These two things pretty much cancelled themselves out in my book so I'm discrediting all those feats.
So for me it mostly came down to whether Kirby could put Nate down and I think Mr I gave enough feats of Nate surviving dimensional bfr to prove Nate can handle what's basically Kirby's only way to put him down. And both the internal TK and endurance arguments were valid which @gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps didn't really counter properly.
As @deathhero61 also said, Gilga put up a decent fight but he chose to focus way too much on debunking his opponent's feats when he knows nothing about them by his own admittance. If he had maybe got more creative with his own team's powersets (for instance focusing more on Kirby's versatility to devise a counter plan rather than going for essentially the "blitz gg" argument) then he might have got my vote.
Nice job guys, this was a quite complex and fun to analyze matchup!
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