2019 High Tier PYP 1st Edition Rd2: Geekryan vs HigherPower(Open For Votes)

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emperorthanos-

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#1  Edited By emperorthanos-  Moderator

It's round 2 Folks

@geekryan

Characters

  • Magneto (5)
  • Jean Grey (3)
  • Invisible Woman (2)

Perks

  • Morals Off (8)
  • Basic Knowledge (5)
  • 1 Hour of Prep (1)
  • 200 Ultron Bots (1)
No Caption Provided

@higherpower

Characters:

  • Super Sailor Moon - 10

Perks:

  • Mind/Soul immunity -7
  • Morals off - 8

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. Time Jumping, remnants, speeding up ones own time is allowed. Other forms of time manip is banned.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Power Copying/stealing.
  8. No Summons, constructs or any other fodder stronger than 616 Bleeding Edge Iron Man.
  9. Summons are limited to 200
  10. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote is unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet inside a Solar System like others, with no other people on it except for the fighters.

No Caption Provided

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Chronicplane

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#2  Edited By Chronicplane

TAEP.

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#3  Edited By higherpower  Moderator  Online

@geekryan

Character Intro

Sailor Moon
Sailor Moon

Don't let her big blue eyes, candy-colored outfit and razzle-dazzle smile fool you. Tsukino Usagi, better known by her alias Sailor Moon, is the titular protagonist of the classic shoujo manga, Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon. What better way to respect the current age of feminism while paying homage to classic manga (similar to current appreciation for Devilman and Seiya) than to debate Sailor? She's a strong, independent, beautiful female warrior who doesn't take smack from nobody. And, considering her whopping price at 10 points, I think it's safe to say I paid a pretty* penny for her powerset.

In order to keep this post compact and concise, I'll cut the skin and go straight to the bone.

For starters she possess the Maboroshi no Ginzuishou (translates to the Silver Crystal) which in Sailor Moon Act 6 was stated by Luna that it had the power to blow up entire planets depending on it's use:

No Caption Provided

For the sake of honestly and integrity, I will admit that the planet level statement is from the official translation, but an alternate translation states that it could blow an entire star apart:

No Caption Provided

Star level is actually pretty consistent and was reaffirmed by an occurrence in official translation where the power of the Silver Crystal was mistaken for an exploding supernova the first time it was released. In Sailor Moon Act 9 Usagi as Princess Serenity tanked a point blank supernova level explosion generated from her own Silver Crystal (it was compared directly to a supernova):

In Act 26, Usagi channeled the power of the Silver Crystal with Chibi Moon and obliterated Planet Nemesis (along with the Death Phantom):

There are multiple layers of context that makes that feat wayyy more impressive than standard planet busting. One of them is the fact Planet Nemesis was the equivalent of a Black Hole:

No Caption Provided

This would also give her feats of surviving black holes since Usagi was able to stroll around on the surface of Planet Nemesis without hindrance (not affected by the radiation either):

Act 22; scans in reverse order

Also, considering nemesis sucks in light like a black hole, simply moving around the vicinity of it makes her FTL.

And another being that they destroyed Death Phantom (an intangible spirit) who's capabilities I will subsequently elucidate on. Additionally, Usagi survived attacks from the Death Phantom unimpeded and also survived the Death Phantom attacking her with the Black Crystal which is evil version of the Silver Crytsal (and the Silver Crystal has star level ranges of power). The Death Phantom dissipated multiple planets and Black Crystal could warp all of space-time:

She also tanked an attack from Mistress 9 who was using the power of the future Silver Crystal:

No Caption Provided

She has hax like sealing, TP, transmuting people into Moon Dust, can hit on the astral plane, and time manipulation (I won't be using it but still).

MFTL speeds are ubiquitous in the verse, with even fodder characters having their fare share of FTL feats. I do not wish to scan bomb here, so I'll post her speed feats and relevant hax when delving into my strategy. But for good measure, Sailor scales above all Senshi, and Hotaru was able to soar from Earth to Charon Castle (which was orbiting Pluto) in seconds:

This is just a general overview of her tier of power. I'll discuss strategy, gear and hax abilities in my next post.

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geekryan

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@higherpower: Nicely done! All I know about her is from the anime way back in the day, so I'm glad to see she is now extremely powerful! I look forward to this. I should have my opener up by the weekend.

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TAEP and T4V

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Post #1 - Opener

Magneto

No Caption Provided

Magneto's CV page

Since Magneto has tons and tons of different powers, I'll keep it simple and generalize a lot of it.

Powers/Abilities:

  • Magnetic Field Manipulation
    • Blasts
    • Force Fields
    • Flight
    • Metal Manipulation
    • Gravity Manipulation
    • Electromagnetic Spectrum Manipulation
  • Telepathic Resistance
  • Genius Intellect
  • Gifted Leader/Tactician/Strategist

Feats:

Physicals

I'll keep this part just about speed, since our battle likely won't become physical at any point.

  • Magneto is fast enough to capture and incapacitate a team of superheroes, including Quicksilver (link)
  • Magneto erects a barrier before Quicksilver can blitz him from a few feet away, which would have worked if not for Scarlet Witch intervening (link) ***Note: Quicksilver has FTL speed feats; I can provide some if necessary***
  • Catches Cannonball mid-flight (link) ***Note: Cannonball travels at speeds at or slightly above supersonic***
  • Without even looking, stops Beast mid-lunge from like two feet away and hits Nightcrawler as he teleports in (link)
  • Catches Northstar, who is as fast if not faster than Quicksilver, despite Magneto saying otherwise (link)
  • Intercepts Mjolnir and stops it mid-flight. He also owns Thor. (link)
  • Repels a lightning bolt as it is about to strike (link)

Powers

Because Magneto, Jean, and Sue all have decades of feats to draw from, I'll keep it short and showcase some of their most noteworthy/relevant feats.

  • Probably one of his best feats. With intense effort, Magneto pulls the Breakworld Bullet (an intangible, city-sized, planet-busting object moving at light speed outside of Earth's solar system) to Earth in order to save Kitty Pryde. (link) ***Note how he is physically and psychically shielding himself at the same time***
  • Owns The Avengers, which include Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, Vision, Yellowjacket, and Wasp. (link)
  • Shields himself, the X-Men, and Asteroid M (considered to be the size of a small planet), from an energy cannon capable of busting a planet (link) ***Proof that it could bust planets***
  • His force fields have tanked attacks from Phoenix, Thor, Dr Doom, Iron Man, Havok, a simultaneous attack from Thor AND She-Hulk, as well as many others:
  • Destroys Proteus (link) ***Note: Proteus is a powerful reality-warper composed of pure energy. Although his weakness is metal, Magneto didn't use metal against him and simply used his manipulation over the electromagnetic spectrum to defeat him***
  • A blast sends Iron Man through a massive ship and far into the horizon (link)
  • Draws the energy out of Phoenix (link)
  • Rearranges and controls a Celestial (link)
  • Powerful and precise enough to balance a platform weighing thousands of tons atop a spire that is a meter wide (link)

Jean Grey

No Caption Provided

Jean Grey's CV page

With morals off, Jean will not be holding back at all and will have full access to her powers.

Powers/Abilities:

  • Telepathy (Planetary)
    • Mind Reading
    • Telepathic Communication
    • Mind Link
    • Cloaking
    • Shielding
    • Illusions
    • Mind Control
    • Mental Detection
    • Sleep Inducement
    • Pain Inducement
    • Mind Blast
    • Astral Projection
    • Psychic Energy Absorption
  • Telekinesis
    • Blasts
    • Force Fields
    • Flight
    • Matter Manipulation
  • Empathy

Feats:

Telekinesis

1) Can temporarily restrain Juggernaut

2) Sends Thor flying into the air

3) Stops Quicksilver with her TK as he is running away

4-5) Holding off Apocalypse

6) Restrains Hope Summers and Deadpool with her TK

She can hurt Iron Man and almost kills him with pure telekinetic energy (link) ***Note: This was one of Iron Man's superior suit models***

Jean has also exhibited molecular-level telekinesis (link)

Now for her shields:

1) Blocks a punch from Black Bolt

2) Blocks a punch from Abomination (comparable to Hulk in strength)

3) Blocks an energy attack from Black Bolt

4) Her shields tank an island-busting explosion

5) Tanks the energy attack of The Stranger, who is comparable to Galactus and the Watchers in power and has easily owned Silver Surfer, Thor, and Adam Warlock

6) Teen Jean shields herself and others against the Phoenix Force

Teen Jean also did this:

No Caption Provided

Since you have the mind immunity perk, I'm basically going to skip the telepathy section for Jean.

Probably her most impressive set of feats, involving an amped Binary:

  1. Jean flies through hyperspace, which requires a minimum of FTL speed and shows that her TK can survive the immense pressure of space while moving at said FTL speeds.
  2. Jean has to encase Binary in a psychic shield and carefully use her TP in order to avoid frying Binary's synapses
  3. Jean enters the White Hole, which again shows how much pressure her TK can withstand. Jean also uses her TP on Binary, despite the fact that she is resisting and being controlled by an alien presence and while she is lashing out massive amounts of energy.
  4. The shockwave from Silver Surfer's involvement is felt "throughout the universe" and threatens to destroy the X-Men's ship
  5. Binary is released/saved and Jean had them both in a TK shield to protect them from the shockwave

That's the basic and TL;DR version of what happened, but I didn't leave out any of the important/relevant details about Jean.

Invisible Woman (Susan Storm)

No Caption Provided

Invisible Woman's CV page

Powers/Abilities:

  • Invisibility
    • Self
    • Others
    • Partial
    • Negation
  • Force Fields
    • Offensive Uses
    • Defensive Uses
    • Telekinesis
    • Flight

Feats:

I won't really get into physicals because her strength and durability aren't important, especially in our fight. I will however bring up one noteworthy speed feat of her erecting a force field a few feet in front of a speeding Quicksilver before he can cross the room (link)

Invisibility

We all know that Sue can turn herself and others invisible to all the wavelengths of light. Sue's invisibility is one of the best in comic books.

While her, Reed, and Been were shrunk down, she did this:

"On our scale that's the equivalent of making the moon disappear."

Now here are a few fun and unique things she can do with invisibility:

1) Can blind someone by turning off their optic nerves

2) Invisible energy was covering Manhattan, and she made it visible

3) She can naturally see invisible things

Force Fields

This is where Sue gets really powerful, but before I get to the offensive & defensive capabilities, just a few more fun things about her force fields:

1) Sue can use her force fields to turn intangible people tangible and solid

2) Her force fields block matter manipulation

3) They can remain up even when Sue is unconscious

4) They can be activated automatically even while she's asleep

5) Her shields can block both TP & TK

Now for some of her defensive force field feats:

1) Shields from Human Torch's supernova ***Statements of how powerful/dangerous Johnny's supernovas can get***

2) Contains the Gamma Bomb, which could have killed all heroes present including Hulk, Thor, Hercules, Thing, She-Hulk, etc.

3) Easily tanks punches from an angry Black Bolt and Namor ***Note: Both are planetary in striking strength***

4) Blocks a blast from Silver Surfer

5) Contains Gladiator and withstands some of his punches ***Note: Gladiator can contend with the likes of Thor and Binary***

6) Can cover an entire city from a blast that would have done damage for hundreds of miles

7) Briefly maintains a force field in the Incursion, which destroyed multiple universes

8) Her shield blocks a massive lightning blast from Ragnarok, an evil robot clone of Thor

Last but not least, a few offensive force field feats:

1) Sends Juggernaut flying backwards ***Note: Also casually shielding herself from Thing & Human Torch***

2) Sends Hulk flying backwards

3) Knocks Namor down to the floor

4) Shockwave that sends a group of Avengers back (includes Thor, Hulk, Iron Man, Luke Cage, etc.)

5) Incaps a group of Avengers, which included Hulk, She-Hulk, Captain Marvel, etc.)

6) Owning Luke Cage & Iron Man

7) Owning Dr Doom

8-9) Solos a group consisting of some huge heavy-hitters like She-Hulk, Thing, Absorbing Man, and Titania

You might be wondering why I skipped some of her particular offensive feats...Just wait until the prep/strategy section ;)

And to finish this off, a few more impressive feats:

1) Traps both Hulk and Thing in force fields ***Note: Hulk even acknowledges he is trapped***

2) Force field around Mjolnir and sends Thor flying off

3) Threatens to kill an amped Thing

4) Tanks punches from World War Hulk

Her force fields are also strong enough to hurt and knock down Doom the Annihilating Conqueror. This is an alternate universe Dr Doom with the combined powers of Kang the Conqueror and Annihilus.

No Caption Provided

Ultron Sentries (200)

No Caption Provided

Ultron Sentries' MCU Wikia page

Powers/Abilities:

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Durability
  • Flight
  • Energy Projection

Feats:

  • Strong enough to temporarily grapple with Captain America (link)
  • Casually punch through a truck's windshield (link)
  • Two Ultron Sentries can fly off with a large truck (link)
  • Easily tear through concrete (link)
  • Catch up with a truck driving away *note: they are only slightly slower than the train next to them* (link)
  • While almost already destroyed, can easily tank a few bullets (link)
  • One/two-shot regular humans (link)
  • Can cause small explosions with their weapons (link)

They will mostly serve as distractions and scrap metal for Magneto to use. While Monarch and Vulcan can very likely tank their attacks, Ultimate Invisible Woman will be quickly taken out if she lets down her shield for whatever reason. Their attacks will also pressure your team, especially Sue's force fields. Two hundred flying opponents with low-level superhuman physicals and energy projection is a pretty big distraction.

Perks

Other than the 200 Ultron Sentries, I have morals off, basic knowledge, and 1 hour of prep.

Morals Off

This is an extremely dangerous and useful perk for my team. Both Jean and Sue tend to fight with morals on, and even Magneto doesn't always go for the kill. With this perk, all 3 of my members will not hesitate to kill you. In fact, they will actively try to kill you. None of them will hold back and will fight to the fullest of their capabilities in order to survive and win.

Basic Knowledge

Another very dangerous and useful perk for my team to have. This perk provides me with as much information as is presented on a character's Wikia page, which is quite extensive. The history, powers, abilities, and equipment of Sailor Moon will be known to my team. Since you do not have any knowledge or prep, my team will be much more prepared for the battle and can plan accordingly. Sailor Moon, on the other hand, will have no clue who she is facing and will have no chance to strategize or prepare.

Prep/Strategy

All 3 of my characters are quite familiar with each other, especially Jean and Magneto. Despite their complicated history and past differences, Magneto will willingly work alongside Jean & Sue. He has worked with the X-Men many times in the past, and there is no reason why he wouldn't do so again in an encounter where his survival is on the line. Each of my team members have a role to play in prep.

Jean's role is the simplest: to establish a psychic link. The mind link will allow my team to better communicate and coordinate. Since they all know each other, there will be no need to exchange information about their powers and abilities. They can communicate telepathically rather than having to talk aloud.

Magneto has a much larger role. For starters, he will analyze the capabilities of the Ultron Sentries in order to determine what they are and what they can do. Given his precise control over all forms of metal, as well as his ability to see metallic energy and the electromagnetic spectrum, this will be easy for him to do.

He will configure the Sentries to make them even deadlier. For example, he will transform parts of their bodies into nano-edged blades and reinforce their metal. He will then use some of the metal on the Sentries to make armour for himself, Jean, and Sue. This quickly-formed armour was able to damage Iron Man and tank some of his attacks. This armour won't even be needed, but it will drastically increase the durability of my team.

The final part of Magneto's prep was mentioned in the scan I just linked, but he will siphon off the energy from the planet we are on (as well as any surrounding planets) in order to amp himself up to his maximum power levels. Here is another occasion where he has done this. This will ensure that Magneto will be at his full strength.

Lastly is Sue, who will quite obviously make herself, Jean, and Magneto completely invisible. Since your team has no knowledge about us, you will not know who you are facing, and once the battle begins, you will not be able to see us. All you will see are the enhanced Ultron Sentries, who will distract you long enough for my team to attack.

How will we attack you? With morals off, my team's strategy will be to eliminate your team as fast and ferociously as possible.

Magneto:

Invisible Woman:

Jean Grey:

All of the feats I just presented for my team are quite self-explanatory, but I can provide context for each of them if needed.

Basically, my team will hit you hard and fast. Between the three of them and all the feats I have shown, they have multiple ways to KO or straight up kill Sailor Moon.

As Sailor Moon spawns, she will not be able to see my team, thanks to Sue's invisibility. Since you won't even know who you are facing, you'll have to detect my team and bypass Sue's invisibility in order to even see us.

As the battle begins, the Ultron Sentries will charge Sailor Moon, serving their purpose as the distraction. They will apply pressure through energy projection and physical attacks.

My team will perform a simultaneous attack on Sailor Moon, assaulting her with any and all internal attacks that they can do. You will have to prove that Sailor Moon has some pretty insane durability when it comes to internal attacks in order for her to last more than a second.

All of this happens with Sailor Moon not even able to mount a counter-attack, let alone see or detect my team.

Conclusion

To recap my prep/strategy for those who want a TL;DR version:

  • Jean establishes a psychic link to make my team's communication and coordination faster and more efficient.
  • Magneto reinforces the Ultron Sentries, siphons off the energy from all surrounding planets to make himself as powerful as he can be, and creates metallic armour for himself, Jean, and Sue.
  • Sue makes our main team members invisible.
  • The Ultron Sentries will be the only visible targets and will assault Sailor Moon to serve as a distraction.
  • My team will immediately and simultaneously attack Sailor Moon with a multitude of internal attacks.

Your move!

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geekryan

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@higherpower: @faradaysloth: @chronicplane: my opener is up.

I realized I didn't need to change much from my opener of last round lol. Are you cool with doing 4 posts each, including our openers?

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#8 higherpower  Moderator  Online
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emperorthanos-

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#9 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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#11 higherpower  Moderator  Online
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@higherpower: Well that was short and interesting lol. Pushing it a bit too with the time limits for posting ;)

I'll have my post up within a few days!

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#13 higherpower  Moderator  Online
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@higherpower: It’s already been 15 days and I had already started doing my counters...

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#15  Edited By higherpower  Moderator  Online

@geekryan: ET stated that version of my character was too much but if you think you can counter it then be my guest. I'll respond accordingly if he allows me too.

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@higherpower: I wasn’t aware. Would have been nice to know lol.

You’re redoing your post with a weaker version of her?

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#17  Edited By higherpower  Moderator  Online

@geekryan: Honestly just reposting my rebuttals now.

Power

The form of Sailor Moon I'm using is Super Sailor Moon. This version was born from a permanent amp where she was boosted by the power of all her friends (the other Senshi) through the Holy Grail. The simple transformation of regular Sailor Moon into Super Sailor Moon was stated to release thousands of times more energy than an artifact known as the Taioran Crystal.

Sailor Moon Act 33

Context:

The Tairon Crystal in it's "dimly glowing" state (i.e weakened state) was stated to have more power than pre-Super Sailor Moon, who I showed in my opener to have casual star level feats.

Sailor Moon Act 22
Sailor Moon Act 22

As a reminder, one of the star level feats I posted was the fact an explosion from the Silver Crystal generated light comparable to that of a supernova. An explosion which she also no-sold point blank.

Sailor Moon Act 9

In case you're confused as to why this means the explosion had supernova level energy, a supernova is identified by it's luminosity.

In astronomy, luminosity is the total amount of energy emitted per unit of time by a star, galaxy, or other astronomical object.[1] As a term for energy emitted per unit time, luminosity is synonymous with power.[2][3][4][5]

========================================================================

Luminosity, in astronomy, the amount of light emitted by an object in a unit of time. The luminosity of the Sun is 3.846 × 1026 watts (or 3.846 × 1033 ergs per second). Luminosity is an absolute measure of radiant power; that is, its value is independent of an observer’s distance from an object.

========================================================================

The luminosity of an object is a measure of its intrinsic brightness and is defined as the amount of energy the object emits in a fixed time. It is essentially the power output of the object and, as such, it can be measured in units such as Watts. [astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/L/Luminosity]

Sources are linked

Then there's the feat of destroying Planet Nemesis with Chibi Moon.

Sailor Moon Act 26

I already some context that makes this feat leagues above standard planet busting, such as Planet Nemesis being a living planet that was fused with the conscience of an incorporeal spirit known as Death Phantom who had multi-planet erasing feats, and the fact Planet Nemesis was acting as a black hole. But this planet was capable of absorbing it's entire solar system into itself, and it increased proportionally in size.

Sailor Moon Act 26

In the first scan, notice how far away Usagi and Tuxedo Kamen are from the planet. It looks as if the planet is far off into the distance, while absorbing the contents of it's surrounding area. Now look at the second scan. The planet become so huge that it appears as if it's right in front of them. This makes the diameter of the planet ginormous, and is also a testament to the energy it can absorb, which is important to note since Usagi destroyed it with an energy attack.

But the biggest kicker would have to be that the explosion of Planet Nemesis radiated as brightly as the Sun (brighter even) on a planet in another solar system.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Remember what I told you about luminosity?

Counters

As Sailor Moon spawns, she will not be able to see my team, thanks to Sue's invisibility. Since you won't even know who you are facing, you'll have to detect my team and bypass Sue's invisibility in order to even see us.

Sailor Moon has the ability to see souls and sense energy so this is rather easy to prove. In the first chapter she was able to sense her friend Hotaru after donning her Sailor equipment.

She was also able to sense her friends in the center of Planet Nemesis while on this surface, which is really impressive considering it's radiation, gravity, energy absorption and other factors.

No Caption Provided

So detecting your team won't be a problem.

As the battle begins, the Ultron Sentries will charge Sailor Moon, serving their purpose as the distraction. They will apply pressure through energy projection and physical attacks.

Ultron Sentries aren't powerful enough to garner her attention. Nor are the other characters on your team realistically. But the Ultron Sentries definitely aren't "applying pressure" to a character who passively released thousands of times supernova level energy. Everything on the planet would get instantly vaporized by Usagi simply transforming into Sailor Moon and maintaining that state before assaulting.

My team will perform a simultaneous attack on Sailor Moon, assaulting her with any and all internal attacks that they can do. You will have to prove that Sailor Moon has some pretty insane durability when it comes to internal attacks in order for her to last more than a second.

I'm going to attack this strategy by first attacking your scans. It seems like you simply dumped a bunch of scans from a random scans from a respect thread. Iactually chuckled when reading them because some of them aren't even internal attacks and others don't require durability.

Starting with Invisible Woman, your first scan is her destroying robots by tuning in on the vibrations they were giving off. Considering that, in the same scan, this strat was suggested to her by another character who mentioned it was used against Celestials, these "vibrations" appears as something that only applies to robots/mechanical beings and not living organisms. Especially with the wording.

No Caption Provided

Your next scan is her creating bubbles around the head of fodder in order to cut off the oxygen and suffocate them from breathing. Which also seems to be the case in the Hulk scan.

No Caption Provided

Not only is these not internal attacks nor do they require durability, Usagi can fight in space and doesn't need oxygen to survive, so they're utterly useless. The last two scans for Invisible Woman are internal, but they serve the same purpose. Shutting down or affecting the lungs of a character to stop them from breathing, which is pointless here.

Magneto and Jean do have internal attacks however, mostly which pertain to manipulating their opponents blood. Sailor Moon doesn't expressly have resistance feats against having her blood clotted or the iron in her blood manipulated, but this is such an unrealistic way to beat her when you consider other factors of the fight. She is clearly not just going to stand there and allow them to do this. Sailor Moon being morals off here also means she's going to attack your team at the drop of the hat, and she dwarfs you in destructive power and is demonstrably faster. Additionally, you posted no scans of Jean Grey using internal attacks in combat situations. Just one statement that she can break bones and another of her clotting someone's blood while seemingly interrogating them. The first scan is super vague and I can't tell what's happening outside of a robot having some power source removed. But still not a probable strategy.

All of this happens with Sailor Moon not even able to mount a counter-attack, let alone see or detect my team.

Usagi is FTL which makes her faster than your team (Magneto has been blitzed by Quicksilver moving nowhere near the speed of light, and he's never reacted to the amped FTL version of him from what I know) and she can detect your team. Considering your main and only strat has been riddled with holes, I think I'm well within my rights to argue that your entire team gets one-shot by being in Usagi's presence, let alone a dignified attack.

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#18 higherpower  Moderator  Online

@geekryan: I finished the post last night but I fell asleep and forgot to tag you when I was done. Sorry about that. My counters are also slightly different.

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#19 emperorthanos-  Moderator
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@emperorthanos-: yup, i'm working on it. should be done by tomorrow or Thursday latest

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Post #2

Counters

The form of Sailor Moon I'm using is Super Sailor Moon. This version was born from a permanent amp where she was boosted by the power of all her friends (the other Senshi) through the Holy Grail. The simple transformation of regular Sailor Moon into Super Sailor Moon was stated to release thousands of times more energy than an artifact known as the Taioran Crystal.

The Tairon Crystal in it's "dimly glowing" state (i.e weakened state) was stated to have more power than pre-Super Sailor Moon, who I showed in my opener to have casual star level feats.

As a reminder, one of the star level feats I posted was the fact an explosion from the Silver Crystal generated light comparable to that of a supernova. An explosion which she also no-sold point blank.

I won't deny that is a lot of power & energy, but you'll need to provide at least a few examples of her transformation actually damaging those around her, if that is what you are implying will happen (you aren't very clear about this).

In case you're confused as to why this means the explosion had supernova level energy, a supernova is identified by it's luminosity.

In astronomy, luminosity is the total amount of energy emitted per unit of time by a star, galaxy, or other astronomical object.[1] As a term for energy emitted per unit time, luminosity is synonymous with power.[2][3][4][5]

========================================================================

Luminosity, in astronomy, the amount of light emitted by an object in a unit of time. The luminosity of the Sun is 3.846 × 1026 watts (or 3.846 × 1033 ergs per second). Luminosity is an absolute measure of radiant power; that is, its value is independent of an observer’s distance from an object.

========================================================================

The luminosity of an object is a measure of its intrinsic brightness and is defined as the amount of energy the object emits in a fixed time. It is essentially the power output of the object and, as such, it can be measured in units such as Watts. [astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/L/Luminosity]

Sources are linked

Using real-world science to quantify energy from a fictional world where high school girls use magic crystals to transform into mystical princess warriors who defend Earth from the universal forces of evil? Seems legit...

But seriously, using real-world physics as the driving force behind your argument is quite meh. If you were using live action characters, I can see how the physics might translate, but you are using an anime character. Anime aren't exactly known for their realistic science and physics.

Then there's the feat of destroying Planet Nemesis with Chibi Moon.

Sailor Moon Act 26

I already some context that makes this feat leagues above standard planet busting, such as Planet Nemesis being a living planet that was fused with the conscience of an incorporeal spirit known as Death Phantom who had multi-planet erasing feats, and the fact Planet Nemesis was acting as a black hole. But this planet was capable of absorbing it's entire solar system into itself, and it increased proportionally in size.

Sailor Moon Act 26

In the first scan, notice how far away Usagi and Tuxedo Kamen are from the planet. It looks as if the planet is far off into the distance, while absorbing the contents of it's surrounding area. Now look at the second scan. The planet become so huge that it appears as if it's right in front of them. This makes the diameter of the planet ginormous, and is also a testament to the energy it can absorb, which is important to note since Usagi destroyed it with an energy attack.

I really don't see why all this scaling and explanations are relevant to our battle. It also seems like severe PIS that a planet that can absorb massive amounts of energy got destroyed by Sailor Moon's energy attack WITH the help of Sailor Chibi Moon. Because they were both involved in the destruction of the planet, that doesn't make the feat as simple as "Sailor Moon destroyed an a massive planet". It also required both of them to focus all of their power from the Silver Crystal and she even says "pray for your powers to increase". This leads me to believe this was very much a one-time feat and a massive outlier for Sailor Moon with some PIS thrown in. Unless you can prove otherwise.

But the biggest kicker would have to be that the explosion of Planet Nemesis radiated as brightly as the Sun (brighter even) on a planet in another solar system.

Remember what I told you about luminosity?

You are really pushing for this... And I do remember what you said about luminosity, which you can't assume holds any value in a fictional verse like Sailor Moon that consistently defies any real word science/physics.

Sailor Moon has the ability to see souls and sense energy so this is rather easy to prove. In the first chapter she was able to sense her friend Hotaru after donning her Sailor equipment.

She was also able to sense her friends in the center of Planet Nemesis while on this surface, which is really impressive considering it's radiation, gravity, energy absorption and other factors.

No Caption Provided

So detecting your team won't be a problem.

First of all, neither of these feats took place in a combat situation, so you have nothing to suggest she can actively sense my team while she has 200 Ultron Bots to deal with and before my team can attack you.

Second of all, it seems as though she knew they were underground in the "Room of Darkness" and had to touch the ground to sense them, showing that 1) she knew who she was looking for, 2) she knew where they might be, 3) she didn't actually sense invisible opponents, 4) she had to focus to sense them. Way too many factors that do not translate to our battle in the slightest.

Ultron Sentries aren't powerful enough to garner her attention. Nor are the other characters on your team realistically. But the Ultron Sentries definitely aren't "applying pressure" to a character who passively released thousands of times supernova level energy. Everything on the planet would get instantly vaporized by Usagi simply transforming into Sailor Moon and maintaining that state before assaulting.

Are you really claiming that she'll ignore 200 robots attacking her when she doesn't even know that my team is there...?

You didn't provide any durability feats to suggest she could tank being assaulted by 200 robots with superhuman strength and explosive rifles.

You also have to prove that her actual transformation has been consistently used to harm/kill/vaporize those around her, because AFAIK, this isn't common for her. You'd also have to prove that she can transform before my team attacks, which will likely happen within the first second of the battle, in a state where is quite vulnerable.

I'm going to attack this strategy by first attacking your scans. It seems like you simply dumped a bunch of scans from a random scans from a respect thread. Iactually chuckled when reading them because some of them aren't even internal attacks and others don't require durability.

It seems as though you're really grasping for straws at this point...

Yeah, I do sometimes use RTs for debates, but I make sure they are reliable and accurate, and I always check the source for context.

"Dumping a bunch of scans" as you put it is better than barely providing any scans and relying on some irrelevant and unnecessary scaling. But that's just my opinion.

Starting with Invisible Woman, your first scan is her destroying robots by tuning in on the vibrations they were giving off. Considering that, in the same scan, this strat was suggested to her by another character who mentioned it was used against Celestials, these "vibrations" appears as something that only applies to robots/mechanical beings and not living organisms. Especially with the wording.

No Caption Provided

She still used her force fields in an offensive way to affect the inside of the robots....Sue is morals off in this battle, so there's nothing stopping her from doing something similar to Sailor Moon and exploding her with a force field from within.

Your next scan is her creating bubbles around the head of fodder in order to cut off the oxygen and suffocate them from breathing. Which also seems to be the case in the Hulk scan.

No Caption Provided

Not only is these not internal attacks nor do they require durability, Usagi can fight in space and doesn't need oxygen to survive, so they're utterly useless. The last two scans for Invisible Woman are internal, but they serve the same purpose. Shutting down or affecting the lungs of a character to stop them from breathing, which is pointless here.

Just because she can survive in space does not necessarily mean she doesn't breathe oxygen. She is still human. It is likely that her powers allow her to survive in space, rather than remove her need to breathe in oxygen. Feel free to prove me wrong with feats though.

Magneto and Jean do have internal attacks however, mostly which pertain to manipulating their opponents blood. Sailor Moon doesn't expressly have resistance feats against having her blood clotted or the iron in her blood manipulated, but this is such an unrealistic way to beat her when you consider other factors of the fight. She is clearly not just going to stand there and allow them to do this. Sailor Moon being morals off here also means she's going to attack your team at the drop of the hat, and she dwarfs you in destructive power and is demonstrably faster.

She won't be able to SEE my team right off the bat, and all it takes is 1 second of combined assault between my team to take her out, especially since you provided zero durability feats for these types of attacks.

Additionally, you posted no scans of Jean Grey using internal attacks in combat situations. Just one statement that she can break bones and another of her clotting someone's blood while seemingly interrogating them. The first scan is super vague and I can't tell what's happening outside of a robot having some power source removed. But still not a probable strategy.

Because Jean doesn't do this in character as she doesn't kill. Jean is morals off in this battle. She will not hesitate to go for the kill and use her TK to kill Sailor Moon. Jean can break her bones, cause a blood clot in her brain, pull out organs, rag doll her, etc. With Jean's power and skill with TK, the possibilities are endless and they will all work against Sailor Moon.

Usagi is FTL which makes her faster than your team (Magneto has been blitzed by Quicksilver moving nowhere near the speed of light, and he's never reacted to the amped FTL version of him from what I know) and she can detect your team. Considering your main and only strat has been riddled with holes, I think I'm well within my rights to argue that your entire team gets one-shot by being in Usagi's presence, let alone a dignified attack.

You provided like one speed feat for someone that isn't Sailor Moon, for scale. And what you presented is travel speed, not combat speed or reaction speed. I don't doubt Sailor Moon is faster than my team, but you provided no real feats to back that up. There is literally nothing to suggest she can detect my team and attack before my team before they simultaneously attack her internally.

You also have to prove that Sailor Moon consistently one-shots people with her mere presence and that she can transform and harm my team before my team just needs to think to attack her.

Conclusion

This is very similar to my R1 debate.

  • Your character has a massive power advantage (I won't deny that), but my strategy counters all that power and renders it pretty useless
  • You provided practically no relevant durability feats
  • Your arguments involve massive scaling that I see as being quite useless and unnecessary
  • You claim that Sailor Moon's mere presence will vaporize my team but provided no feats to back that up. She does not consistently harm people with her presence
  • She can't transform fast enough to harm my team before they take her out
  • You provided no combat-applicable or particularly relevant feats for detecting my team

Sailor Moon has no chance against my team in our particular situation.

Your move.

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#23  Edited By higherpower  Moderator  Online

@geekryan:

I won't deny that is a lot of power & energy, but you'll need to provide at least a few examples of her transformation actually damaging those around her, if that is what you are implying will happen (you aren't very clear about this).

Lol, me saying that Usagi's transformation into Super Sailor Moon would kill your team was a tongue-in-cheek brag. Reading through your post, you took it literally which is probably a fault on my end. (I stated it a few times but that's just to stress the power difference). She starts the battle in SSM form, as that's the version of her I'm using.

I am, however, using the statement of her simple transformation releasing that level of energy as the basis for her casual attacks annihilating your team.

Using real-world science to quantify energy from a fictional world where high school girls use magic crystals to transform into mystical princess warriors who defend Earth from the universal forces of evil? Seems legit...

But seriously, using real-world physics as the driving force behind your argument is quite meh. If you were using live action characters, I can see how the physics might translate, but you are using an anime character. Anime aren't exactly known for their realistic science and physics.

This is a gargantuan reach. You completely skipped over the feat itself and rebutted with an argument from incredulity. It's an objective fact that supernovas are identified by their luminosity, and a character with a telescope who was looking into the sky mistook the Silver Crystal's explosion for a supernova because the light it gave off.

"Is this huge light... a huge supernova explosion!?"

For your position to hold any weight, you would have to make the argument that light itself doesn't work in the Sailor Moon verse the way it does in... any fictional universe or in real life.

Good luck with that.

I really don't see why all this scaling and explanations are relevant to our battle. It also seems like severe PIS that a planet that can absorb massive amounts of energy got destroyed by Sailor Moon's energy attack WITH the help of Sailor Chibi Moon. Because they were both involved in the destruction of the planet, that doesn't make the feat as simple as "Sailor Moon destroyed an a massive planet". It also required both of them to focus all of their power from the Silver Crystal and she even says "pray for your powers to increase". This leads me to believe this was very much a one-time feat and a massive outlier for Sailor Moon with some PIS thrown in. Unless you can prove otherwise.

I was only trying to provide a detailed and contextualized write-up of my character's power, so unfamiliar people would have a better understanding of what she could do. My opener was also copy-pasted from another tourney and only featured showings from weaker versions of Sailor Moon. So I posted some new feats and expanded on the impressiveness of ones I already had. So you'll have to excuse me for being thorough.

That's not PIS. They sent more energy into Planet Nemesis than what it could absorb and exploded it. Which is also impressive considering Nemesis ate it's own solar system and passively drained the energy of the other Senshi, preventing them from transforming (these are planet-star level characters).

No Caption Provided

Nemesis' negative energy also previously cancelled out/negated the energy of the base Silver Crystal, preventing Usagi from transforming as well. (Before you say it, when Usagi one-shot Nemsis with Chibi Moon she tapped into the Crystal's full power and had better control. But as was stated, the Silver Crystal can destroy a star in the hands of even an inexperienced person).

No Caption Provided

Lastly, before the feat Sailor Moon had shared a kiss with her soulmate/love and it increased energy and confidence. Something she lacked in prior encounters with Nemesis. Prince Mamoru told Usagi to believe in herself and the Silver Crystal, and stated that he would go as far to give up his life for her in order to increase his power. Then when Usagi saw Chibiuasa, she told her to focus all her strength and energy at the planet.

Sailor Moon Act 26

Calling it PIS or an outlier would make absolutely zero sense, because in the context of the story, this is a clear moment of character development and the first actual point in the story where Usagi accesses the full powers and capability of the Silver Crystal. It took the courage of her lover in order to believe in her abilities for her to use those abilities to the fullest extent. Not to mention she far surpasses this level of power anyway with subsequent feats in higher forms, so the word "outlier" would be factually inaccurate for the version I'm using.

Finally, I stated in my opener that she had the help of Chibi Moon, making it a shared feat. (Which doesn't matter considering it's astronomically above planet busting, a level of power that already dwarfs your team). So you should stop acting as if I'm being disingenuous regarding the context of the feat.

You are really pushing for this... And I do remember what you said about luminosity, which you can't assume holds any value in a fictional verse like Sailor Moon that consistently defies any real word science/physics.

When has light in Sailor Moon ever contradicted or defied real word science/physics? Simply because it's a fictional universe with supernatural characters doesn't mean we throw away every single metric we can use to quantify feats. What you're arguing is the equivalent of me saying that a character in Sailor Moon surviving in space shouldn't be used to suggest they can survive in space in the real world, because it's a verse that defies physics in other areas. Just because the series has elements of the unreal doesn't mean things inside the verse that exist in, behave like, and have parallels in the real world (such as the void of space or light itself) can't be quantified, unless explicit reasons are given otherwise.

Your argument can also be flipped on it's head. Does blood in Marvel work the same way it does in Sailor Moon? Where's the proof that Magneto or Jean can manipulate Usagi's internal organs? She's completely different from anything they've encountered, right? Her universe defies science and physics and can't be equated to other universes, right?

I hope you can see my point... arguments like that won't fly in voting.

First of all, neither of these feats took place in a combat situation, so you have nothing to suggest she can actively sense my team while she has 200 Ultron Bots to deal with and before my team can attack you.

Now that I think about it, considering Usagi is morals off, and a basic Silver Crystal explosion from an inexperienced Usagi had a large supernova's AoE, everything on the planet gets nuked the nanosecond the match starts. She wouldn't even have to bother going through the trouble finding your team in order to kill you. The starting distance is only 100m and she can encompass everything on the planet with her blasts. And now she has no reason not to.

Second of all, it seems as though she knew they were underground in the "Room of Darkness" and had to touch the ground to sense them, showing that 1) she knew who she was looking for, 2) she knew where they might be, 3) she didn't actually sense invisible opponents, 4) she had to focus to sense them. Way too many factors that do not translate to our battle in the slightest.

This is false. The scan itself refutes that. Manga scans are read from right to left. In the upper left corner panel of the scan, the brooch on her neck went "ba-dum" and we see a vision of her friends. It is because of that that she knows they are underground, which is why she touched the floor to sense them more accurately.

No Caption Provided

She couldn't sense them before because of her powers were limited. But Nemesis also has the gravity of a black hole and immense radiation. Not to mention with the Dark Crystal at it's core, Nemesis warps space-time.

Making the feat of sensing anything at all incredibly impressive.

Are you really claiming that she'll ignore 200 robots attacking her when she doesn't even know that my team is there...?

She will know your team is there. Even disregarding the above feat, Usagi can passively sense the aura/energy of people in her civilian/human form.

No Caption Provided

But like I said earlier, being morals off means she'll open up the match with an attack. So even if all she can usee are the Ultron sentries, the explosion that one-shots them would still one shot you due to it's AoE and power.

You didn't provide any durability feats to suggest she could tank being assaulted by 200 robots with superhuman strength and explosive rifles.

...

What? Did you not read my opener? I showed her no-selling the point blank explosion of the Silver Crystal, the exact one that one that was supernova level.

No Caption Provided

And if you had read the beginning of my second post, you would have read this scan, the very first scan in that post.

No Caption Provided

It was expressly stated that she received no recoil damage from the energy she was putting out, which is obviously a clear indication that she can't be harmed by that level of force. Said energy is thousands of times greater in power Post-Serenity Sailor Moon could dish out (multiple star level and above feats).

So forgive me for being amused, one can't help but feel that way when presented with the the argument that Ultron sentries can hurt Sailor Moon. Live action peak humans like Captain America were stomping them in droves. Bigger lol at explosive rifles.

You also have to prove that her actual transformation has been consistently used to harm/kill/vaporize those around her, because AFAIK, this isn't common for her.

In the scan I posted directly above, Pharoah 90 and Mistress 9 (who was possessing Hotaru at the time) are feeling the effects of her transformation. With Pharoah 90 complementing her power, stating "What a beautiful storm of light! What a magnificent aura it gives off! It's as heaven itself is giving off its power" which means that her transformation was actually releasing immense physical energy that could be seen and felt. They weren't one-shot because

1) Pharoah 90 is galaxy level. She no-sold an actual attack from Super Sailor Moon a couple chapters later.

2) Mistress is stronger than a Sailor Senshi.

You'd also have to prove that she can transform before my team attacks, which will likely happen within the first second of the battle, in a state where is quite vulnerable.

Like I said, Usagi actually can one-shot your team passively by transforming into Super Sailor Moon, since when she transformed she was actually releasing energy passively, but it was just a flex since the match starts with her already in that form. However, literally the very first thing she did the moment she became Sailor Moon was launch a blast at her opponent.

And that's the pacifist in-character Usagi. Morals off, everything on the planet gets deleted without a moments hesitation. Including your team the Ultron bots. Usagi is faster than you so this is bound to happen.

"Dumping a bunch of scans" as you put it is better than barely providing any scans and relying on some irrelevant and unnecessary scaling. But that's just my opinion.

No Caption Provided

She still used her force fields in an offensive way to affect the inside of the robots....Sue is morals off in this battle, so there's nothing stopping her from doing something similar to Sailor Moon and exploding her with a force field from within.

No. Pay attention to the wording.

"You can beat them the same way you recently took on the big celestial"

and

"By tuning its vibrations to the proper harmonic chord, you can shatter those metal monsters!"

This isn't mean to come off too harsh, but if we're being honest with ourselves, anyone with a reading comprehension above a 6th grade level would be able to infer that what Sue did was possible because of the composition of those robots. They were described as "metal monsters" who were giving off a certain vibration that Sue had to alter to a certain chord in order to defeat them. This is apparently the same way she took on a Celestial, who as you should know are robots.

I'm not saying that Sue is incapable of internal attacks. Just that this isn't a good example, and reflects on why you shouldn't mindlessly dump scans from respect threads.

Just because she can survive in space does not necessarily mean she doesn't breathe oxygen. She is still human. It is likely that her powers allow her to survive in space, rather than remove her need to breathe in oxygen. Feel free to prove me wrong with feats though.

http://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Sailor-Moon-chapter-10.html

She won't be able to SEE my team right off the bat, and all it takes is 1 second of combined assault between my team to take her out, especially since you provided zero durability feats for these types of attacks.

She won't need to. She'll see the Ultron bots, launch a blast immediately, and vaporize every living thing on the planet including your team, due to it being thousands of times above star level.

Because Jean doesn't do this in character as she doesn't kill. Jean is morals off in this battle. She will not hesitate to go for the kill and use her TK to kill Sailor Moon. Jean can break her bones, cause a blood clot in her brain, pull out organs, rag doll her, etc. With Jean's power and skill with TK, the possibilities are endless and they will all work against Sailor Moon.

Addressed.

You provided like one speed feat for someone that isn't Sailor Moon, for scale. And what you presented is travel speed, not combat speed or reaction speed. I don't doubt Sailor Moon is faster than my team, but you provided no real feats to back that up. There is literally nothing to suggest she can detect my team and attack before my team before they simultaneously attack her internally.

Usagi escaped from being sucked inside Planet Nemesis as well as move around and fought in the vicinity of the planet. Making her faster than light since planet nemesis was stated more than once to be a black hole and sucks in light such as one.. It's a lot of scans so I'll post an imgur link. But she was drawn in, used her power to warp out, then along with Chibi Moon destroyed it (they weren't sucked in that time).

Then there's walking around on the surface of the planet in base. Considering Usagi doesn't have really have good physical strength, I don't think the entire story arc would be possible if she was slower than light. And this was in a drastically weaker form. She doesn't use her speed in-character which is why people don't think she's fast, but good thing she's morals off.

She doesn't need to detect your team to one-shot them when blasts from an inexperienced Sailor Moon were comparable to actual supernovas. That AoE and that speed advantage kills you.

You also have to prove that Sailor Moon consistently one-shots people with her mere presence and that she can transform and harm my team before my team just needs to think to attack her.

She affected Pharoah 90 and Mistress 9 with her presence after transforming.

Conclusion

My opponent conceded the speed advantage at the behest of me supporting my claims of Usagi's speed with feats, which I complied to and did. That's an automatic GG since it goes without saying that everyone on Geek's team gets one-shotted with a blast. But what I love the most is the fact I don't need a speed advantage to win.

Geek banked on his team's invisibility perk, but what he failed to realize is that Planet Nemesis is invisible to the naked eye. It was only located by high technology sensors through the huge amounts of negative energy it put out.

No Caption Provided

Which is GG x2 because of the plethora of feats I posted of Usagi against Nemesis, not to mention the scans I dropped proving she can sense the energy and aura of people.

I also think it became very evident at certain points in the debate that Geek didn't read my posts carefully at all. He stated that I didn't post any durability feats (which was blatantly wrong) and actually implied that the Ultron Sentries could hurt her.

Then there were the piteous attempts at debunking the Silver Crystal's firepower because I used real world metrics of luminosity to quantify it.

Overall, this is a complete mismatch and there's no scenario where my opponents team can hope to win. It's three high tiers vs a morals off low-skyfather with buckets of hax. I also believe I made stronger rebuttals and defended my points.

Geek thinks that I'm going to fall for the superior character syndrome seeing as he compared me to his opponent in the round 1 debate. But I actually voted for Geek in that match because Aqualion used terrible arguments and scaling. It's not the same situation here. Every single bullet point in Geek's conclusion was false and refuted.

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#24 higherpower  Moderator  Online
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@higherpower: Wow that was fast lol.

I’m try and have my post up within a week but no guarantees since it’s the end of my semester and things are getting busy

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#26  Edited By geekryan

Post #3 - Conclusion

Counters

Lol, me saying that Usagi's transformation into Super Sailor Moon would kill your team was a tongue-in-cheek brag. Reading through your post, you took it literally which is probably a fault on my end. (I stated it a few times but that's just to stress the power difference). She starts the battle in SSM form, as that's the version of her I'm using.

I am, however, using the statement of her simple transformation releasing that level of energy as the basis for her casual attacks annihilating your team.

A tongue-in-cheek brag that you used multiple times in two of your posts. So much so that you failed to provide practically any showings of Sailor Moon's attacks being used against actual opponents. All you did was rely on insane scaling to show her planet-busting rather than show her in a real fight. A combined shield from all 3 of my characters would be more than enough to defend against her attacks.

And IIRC, Usagi never just "starts" in her Sailor Moon forms, she needs to transform first.

This is a gargantuan reach. You completely skipped over the feat itself and rebutted with an argument from incredulity. It's an objective fact that supernovas are identified by their luminosity, and a character with a telescope who was looking into the sky mistook the Silver Crystal's explosion for a supernova because the light it gave off.

For your position to hold any weight, you would have to make the argument that light itself doesn't work in the Sailor Moon verse the way it does in... any fictional universe or in real life.

Good luck with that.

About as much of a gargantuan reach as equating real-world science to a fictional universe that has awful physics, magic, and a pretty distinct lack of science. Many characters in Sailor Moon use lightning, light or laser-based attacks, and yet they don't move at those speeds. If the science and physics were accurate, they would. So why should it be any different to say that the supernova had so much destructive energy based solely on its luminosity?

I was only trying to provide a detailed and contextualized write-up of my character's power, so unfamiliar people would have a better understanding of what she could do. My opener was also copy-pasted from another tourney and only featured showings from weaker versions of Sailor Moon. So I posted some new feats and expanded on the impressiveness of ones I already had. So you'll have to excuse me for being thorough.

Then you should have used feats of your character fighting against other characters rather than relying on one planet-busting feat that isn't even clear cut because she had help.

That's not PIS. They sent more energy into Planet Nemesis than what it could absorb and exploded it. Which is also impressive considering Nemesis ate it's own solar system and passively drained the energy of the other Senshi, preventing them from transforming (these are planet-star level characters).

Even if it wasn't PIS, you provided no other feats of a similar caliber to suggest that this isn't an outlier or something she does on the regular.

Nemesis' negative energy also previously cancelled out/negated the energy of the base Silver Crystal, preventing Usagi from transforming as well. (Before you say it, when Usagi one-shot Nemsis with Chibi Moon she tapped into the Crystal's full power and had better control. But as was stated, the Silver Crystal can destroy a star in the hands of even an inexperienced person).

Very well, but this was still very much a one-time thing and I doubt it is replicable. So for all your attempts to build up this one feat, it's pretty useless. Additionally, how often does Sailor Moon even tap into the Crystal's full power? Because you provided no other examples of this to prove she does this consistently.

Lastly, before the feat Sailor Moon had shared a kiss with her soulmate/love and it increased energy and confidence. Something she lacked in prior encounters with Nemesis. Prince Mamoru told Usagi to believe in herself and the Silver Crystal, and stated that he would go as far to give up his life for her in order to increase his power. Then when Usagi saw Chibiuasa, she told her to focus all her strength and energy at the planet.

Is she going to share a kiss before this battle? Because if not, how is she going to come even close to replicating this amount of energy output in our particular battle?

Calling it PIS or an outlier would make absolutely zero sense, because in the context of the story, this is a clear moment of character development and the first actual point in the story where Usagi accesses the full powers and capability of the Silver Crystal. It took the courage of her lover in order to believe in her abilities for her to use those abilities to the fullest extent. Not to mention she far surpasses this level of power anyway with subsequent feats in higher forms, so the word "outlier" would be factually inaccurate for the version I'm using.

It could be considered an outlier in this form only. You barely provided any other feats so there really isn't much to go on, and there are so many holes in this one feat you have built up so much.

Finally, I stated in my opener that she had the help of Chibi Moon, making it a shared feat. (Which doesn't matter considering it's astronomically above planet busting, a level of power that already dwarfs your team). So you should stop acting as if I'm being disingenuous regarding the context of the feat.

There are so many things wrong with this feat that I can't even accept it at base value. Sure, it's above planetary, but she had help from Chibi Moon, she had the courage from her lover, she needed to access the full power of the Silver Crystal, she needed all her focus and concentration, etc. So many things that just aren't replicable in our fight.

When has light in Sailor Moon ever contradicted or defied real word science/physics? Simply because it's a fictional universe with supernatural characters doesn't mean we throw away every single metric we can use to quantify feats. What you're arguing is the equivalent of me saying that a character in Sailor Moon surviving in space shouldn't be used to suggest they can survive in space in the real world, because it's a verse that defies physics in other areas. Just because the series has elements of the unreal doesn't mean things inside the verse that exist in, behave like, and have parallels in the real world (such as the void of space or light itself) can't be quantified, unless explicit reasons are given otherwise.

Addressed before, but to really drive the point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtDjtIKAxbE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwpTSEZ4TDk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDCWjhm97xg&t=64s

All these lightning/light attacks and yet none of them move at those speeds... I even did further research on the manga and various RT's and I could not find any proof that these attacks move at light speed. I used the anime as examples because it best demonstrates the speed of the attacks.

Your argument can also be flipped on it's head. Does blood in Marvel work the same way it does in Sailor Moon? Where's the proof that Magneto or Jean can manipulate Usagi's internal organs? She's completely different from anything they've encountered, right? Her universe defies science and physics and can't be equated to other universes, right?

I hope you can see my point... arguments like that won't fly in voting.

That isn't remotely close of a comparison and you know it. There is no proof that the lightning and light-based attacks in Sailor Moon move at those speeds. To use the luminosity of a supernova as the determining factor of its massive energy output is based off of nothing factual. The science and physics don't work the same way they do in real life, which is why attempting to use real-world science to prove a point from a fantasy world is risky.

Now that I think about it, considering Usagi is morals off, and a basic Silver Crystal explosion from an inexperienced Usagi had a large supernova's AoE, everything on the planet gets nuked the nanosecond the match starts. She wouldn't even have to bother going through the trouble finding your team in order to kill you. The starting distance is only 100m and she can encompass everything on the planet with her blasts. And now she has no reason not to.

Lollllllllll okay. Considering you only bring this up now in your final post, and provided zero feats to back any of this up, no chance. She would still need to actually attack us, and although her travel speed is FTL, her combat speed isn't remotely close and you provided no feats to prove otherwise. But I like that you conceded the point of not being able to locate my team.

This is false. The scan itself refutes that. Manga scans are read from right to left. In the upper left corner panel of the scan, the brooch on her neck went "ba-dum" and we see a vision of her friends. It is because of that that she knows they are underground, which is why she touched the floor to sense them more accurately.

Oh, so now you're trying to prove she can find my team? What happened to nuking my team the moment the battle begins?

Usagi literally says "Where are they?" and looks NEXT TO HER before touching the ground and sensing them. She had no clue where they were until then. Even then, she had to physically touch the ground to find them, and she still only knew where they were in a very general way. This is proven by the fact that she says "The Underground 'Room of Darkness', Where is it?". This is nowhere near good enough to prove she could detect my invisible team while a horde of Ultron Sentries are going at her.

She couldn't sense them before because of her powers were limited. But Nemesis also has the gravity of a black hole and immense radiation. Not to mention with the Dark Crystal at it's core, Nemesis warps space-time.

And my team is invisible to all wavelengths of light, without you having provided any feats to suggest she could detect them through that while in a combat situation.

She will know your team is there. Even disregarding the above feat, Usagi can passively sense the aura/energy of people in her civilian/human form.

This is so vague. Being able to sense their energy does not mean she can pinpoint their location, especially while under attack.

But like I said earlier, being morals off means she'll open up the match with an attack. So even if all she can usee are the Ultron sentries, the explosion that one-shots them would still one shot you due to it's AoE and power.

And with the zero combat speed you have shown for her, there is zero chance she can attack before my team completely obliterate her with internal attacks. AFAIK, most attacks in Sailor Moon need to be spoken first with some accompanying flashy effects.

What? Did you not read my opener? I showed her no-selling the point blank explosion of the Silver Crystal, the exact one that one that was supernova level.

Okay, and how about blunt force durability, piercing, gunfire, internal attacks...?

It was expressly stated that she received no recoil damage from the energy she was putting out, which is obviously a clear indication that she can't be harmed by that level of force. Said energy is thousands of times greater in power Post-Serenity Sailor Moon could dish out (multiple star level and above feats).

That is strictly energy damage...

So forgive me for being amused, one can't help but feel that way when presented with the the argument that Ultron sentries can hurt Sailor Moon. Live action peak humans like Captain America were stomping them in droves. Bigger lol at explosive rifles.

You should be amused because all you showed was energy durability; nothing about blunt, piercing, internal attacks, etc. So yeah, there's nothing stopping them form pummelling her to death based on what you have presented.

In the scan I posted directly above, Pharoah 90 and Mistress 9 (who was possessing Hotaru at the time) are feeling the effects of her transformation. With Pharoah 90 complementing her power, stating "What a beautiful storm of light! What a magnificent aura it gives off! It's as heaven itself is giving off its power" which means that her transformation was actually releasing immense physical energy that could be seen and felt. They weren't one-shot because

1) Pharoah 90 is galaxy level. She no-sold an actual attack from Super Sailor Moon a couple chapters later.

2) Mistress is stronger than a Sailor Senshi.

These two are literally chilling in her light/energy as if they were sunbathing and experiencing zero pain or damage.... And yet the energy is enough to one-shot my team anyways?

This still does not prove that her mere transformation regularly harms/kills/vaporizes those around her. Just because it gives off an immense level of energy does not necessarily mean it is harmful in any way.

Like I said, Usagi actually can one-shot your team passively by transforming into Super Sailor Moon, since when she transformed she was actually releasing energy passively, but it was just a flex since the match starts with her already in that form. However, literally the very first thing she did the moment she became Sailor Moon was launch a blast at her opponent.

Which you didn't prove, like at all. Zero feats of her transformations actually harming those around her.

You keep contradicting yourself. First you say she is already transformed, but then you say her transformation will vaporize my team...? It can't be both lol.

I'm glad you pointed that out, because this attack involved her saying "Rainbow Moon Heart Ache". This just proves that she needs to speak her attack faster than my team can destroy her with internal attacks, which will literally happen the instant the battle begins.

And that's the pacifist in-character Usagi. Morals off, everything on the planet gets deleted without a moments hesitation. Including your team the Ultron bots. Usagi is faster than you so this is bound to happen.

Morals off Usagi still needs to speak her attack and fully execute it, that doesn't change.

Travel speed, yes. Combat speed, definitely not.

No. Pay attention to the wording.

"You can beat them the same way you recently took on the big celestial"

and

"By tuning its vibrations to the proper harmonic chord, you can shatter those metal monsters!"

This isn't mean to come off too harsh, but if we're being honest with ourselves, anyone with a reading comprehension above a 6th grade level would be able to infer that what Sue did was possible because of the composition of those robots. They were described as "metal monsters" who were giving off a certain vibration that Sue had to alter to a certain chord in order to defeat them. This is apparently the same way she took on a Celestial, who as you should know are robots.

I'm not saying that Sue is incapable of internal attacks. Just that this isn't a good example, and reflects on why you shouldn't mindlessly dump scans from respect threads.

It wasn't the best example, but it was just one of many showing some form of internal attack.

http://mangaseeonline.us/read-online/Sailor-Moon-chapter-10.html

So them going to the Moon means they have no lungs? Which is more likely: their powers allow them to survive in space, or their lungs are non-existent...?

She won't need to. She'll see the Ultron bots, launch a blast immediately, and vaporize every living thing on the planet including your team, due to it being thousands of times above star level.

She'll see the Ultron Bots, get swarmed by them, and be unable to fire off an attack due to her needing to speak to attack. And this is assuming my team doesn't immediately take her out the moment the battle begins.

Usagi escaped from being sucked inside Planet Nemesis as well as move around and fought in the vicinity of the planet. Making her faster than light since planet nemesis was stated more than once to be a black hole and sucks in light such as one.. It's a lot of scans so I'll post an imgur link. But she was drawn in, used her power to warp out, then along with Chibi Moon destroyed it (they weren't sucked in that time).

And yet this still doesn't equate to real combat speed, against an opponent that isn't an immobile planet...

Then there's walking around on the surface of the planet in base. Considering Usagi doesn't have really have good physical strength, I don't think the entire story arc would be possible if she was slower than light. And this was in a drastically weaker form. She doesn't use her speed in-character which is why people don't think she's fast, but good thing she's morals off.

You didn't show anything to suggest she has good combat speed, in-character or otherwise. So no, you can't assume she'll be so much faster just because she is morals off.

She affected Pharoah 90 and Mistress 9 with her presence after transforming.

They were nowhere close to being hurt or harmed by this. You didn't show anything to suggest this energy was harmful.

My opponent conceded the speed advantage at the behest of me supporting my claims of Usagi's speed with feats, which I complied to and did. That's an automatic GG since it goes without saying that everyone on Geek's team gets one-shotted with a blast. But what I love the most is the fact I don't need a speed advantage to win.

Uhh no, I didn't concede anything lol. Don't put words in my mouth just to make you seem superior to the voters. You have a travel speed advantage and that's it. You most certainly do not have a combat speed advantage given what you presented.

My team would get one-shotted with a blast....if they had no shields up. Most of your feats to prove Sailor Moon's power involved some insane scaling with several issues that I pointed out. Additionally, based on what I presented in my opener, a combined shield from my 3 team members should be enough to block your attack, IF you can even get an attack off.

Geek banked on his team's invisibility perk, but what he failed to realize is that Planet Nemesis is invisible to the naked eye. It was only located by high technology sensors through the huge amounts of negative energy it put out.

Which is GG x2 because of the plethora of feats I posted of Usagi against Nemesis, not to mention the scans I dropped proving she can sense the energy and aura of people.

It says a lot about you as a debater that the majority of your feats came in your final post lol.

That feat literally says the planet blipped out of watch and changed orbit.....That doesn't mean it turned invisible. The other part does say "although we can't see it", but this just shows the planet is out of view and not always visible. What leads you to believe it was invisible when Sailor Moon was attacking it?

All the arguments you presented about Usagi being able to detect my team were extremely lackluster, and I refuted all of them.

I also think it became very evident at certain points in the debate that Geek didn't read my posts carefully at all. He stated that I didn't post any durability feats (which was blatantly wrong) and actually implied that the Ultron Sentries could hurt her.

You're really desperate if you're trying to argue my supposed ignorance lol. I read your posts, more than once. Maybe I wasn't clear, but all you presented for durability was an energy explosion. You didn't show anything with blunt force, piercing, laser rifles, internal attacks, etc. You know, the relevant stuff?

Then there were the piteous attempts at debunking the Silver Crystal's firepower because I used real world metrics of luminosity to quantify it.

Which holds no meaning in a world where light and lightning attacks do not travel at those speeds.

Overall, this is a complete mismatch and there's no scenario where my opponents team can hope to win. It's three high tiers vs a morals off low-skyfather with buckets of hax. I also believe I made stronger rebuttals and defended my points.

"Buckets of hax" that you didn't show any of lol. I also like how you're admitting your character is sky father tier in a high-tier tournament. Way to sneak in characters.

Geek thinks that I'm going to fall for the superior character syndrome seeing as he compared me to his opponent in the round 1 debate. But I actually voted for Geek in that match because Aqualion used terrible arguments and scaling. It's not the same situation here. Every single bullet point in Geek's conclusion was false and refuted.

Me saying that had nothing to do with you at all. I was addressing the voters. People like you and Aqualion seem to be under the impression that raw power is all that matters in a tournament. It isn't. Having a good team with hax, strategy and a good choice of perks can easily overcome a much stronger character, which I proved in the first round when I was up against Monarch and Vulcan. I was just pointing out that this match is very similar.

Conclusion

To conclude:

  • Your first two posts heavily relied on a "tongue-in-cheek brag" about Sailor Moon's mere transformation one-shotting my team...
  • Then you go on to say that she is already transformed, making your claims highly inconsistent
  • Those two posts involved insane amounts of scaling just to show that Sailor Moon can destroy a planet with the help of someone else (Chibi Moon), only after being empowered by her lover, having to access the full power of the Crystal, and needing her complete and total focus...
  • None of which are replicable, especially in our particular battle. Furthermore, you failed to prove that this feat is consistent for her and it is highly likely it is an outlier.
  • You heavily relied on real world science and physics as the driving force for your point about the supernova's energy being so massive due to how bright it was...
  • In a universe where I proved that lightning and light-based attacks do not move at those speeds
  • You provided practically no feats of Sailor Moon fighting other characters; all you emphasized was her planet-busting.
  • You conceded to the argument of Usagi being able to detect my team by saying she doesn't even need to since she can just vaporize my team with an AoE once the battle begins...
  • And then go on to continue and try to show how she can detect my team with severely lackluster arguments and feats, all of which I refuted.
  • You showed a few feats of her travel speed but practically nothing about her combat speed, suggesting her combat speed isn't anywhere close to FTL like her travel speed is.
  • You provided very few durability feats, and they all involved energy. You didn't provide any durability feats for blunt force, piercing, laser attacks, internal attacks, etc. All of which are relevant in our battle.
  • Much to your detriment, you also showed how Usagi would need to say her attack before actually being able to fire off the attack...
  • By which time my team can obliterate you in multiple ways with their internal attacks, in the very first moment the battle begins and whilst being invisible to you
  • You tried to show how her transformation lets off immense amounts of energy and claimed it would be enough to vaporize my team, without showing her transformations actually harming anyone.
  • You didn't prove that Usagi could be resistant to attacks on her internal organs. All you did was show that she could survive in space, which is likely due to her powers and not due to a lack of lungs.
  • You put a lot of words in my mouth and tried to make me seem ignorant, just to get votes
  • Even if you were to fire off an attack, my team's combined shields should be enough to block it
  • You claim Sailor Moon has lots of hax without providing a single example
  • You basically admitted that your character is too much for this tournament with you saying she is sky father level
  • You seem to be under the impression that just because your character has superior raw power than my team, it's an immediate GG.
  • You also provided the majority of your feats in your final post, which made me chuckle.
  • Sailor Moon won't be able to detect my team, she won't be able to attack before my team does, and she'll die the moment my team attacks since she can't resist their internal attacks.
  • I refuted every single one of my opponent's arguments and I believe I provided stronger arguments for why my team wins

GG.

If this wasn't a tournament match and it was our teams facing off without any perks or prep, I would agree that Sailor Moon's raw power would be enough to obliterate my team. But that isn't the case. To the voters: keep that in mind when voting.

Thanks!

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@higherpower: Good luck to you in the voting! It was a fun and interesting debate regardless of the outcome.

I may have come across as a little harsh or aggressive at times, but just know that it wasn't personal at all and I meant no offence.

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GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps

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Ok then, seems like I will make the first vote.

Let's go down the list regarding points hat came up during this debate:

In terms of what @higherpower did right, he clearly and precisely showed off just how powerful Sailor Moon was, promptly eviscerating any chance of @geekryan winning a physicals game. The main debate here, from my perspective, was could the shields stay up, and the whole travel speed =/= combat speed shindig and could Sailor nuke Geek's team to hell before the internal tinkering happens.

Let's start with the shields, as that will take less time, since frankly, HP was able to show that Sailor's raw power was more than anything those shields had demonstrated, and whilst you may think this is just a 'muh character's stronger', honestly in a section like this where one must bust through a defense, that's really all that matters.

Now as for the travel speed =/= combat speed part of the equation, I'm honestly kinda torn, but I'm still gonna give this to HP. Whilst the travel speed itself never got debunked on HP's part, HP also made it clear that he was painting the picture of a case of Geek taking this kind of rule to it's logical extreme...and past it, at some point these two do overlap. Add on top that it was a fodder character who performed the feat, and hopefully you cans see where I'm getting at with this part of the argument.

And finally, the internal organ manipulation argument actually went to Geek, as I was convinced it would work on Sailor, but at this point, with both the speed and durability, it was a case of blitz or be blitzed, which HP was already winning in.

There were other things Geek did wrong unfortunately, namely the parallel to irl thing was completely in HP's favour, due to his well thought out rebuttal and Geek's counter arguments feeling lacking imo (tho heads up Geek, when talking about manga, the anime adaptation is generally irrelevant if things would contradict, which was where your whole lightning/light speed difference thing seems to come from. Tho there are some exceptions depending on the franchise), and HP correcting debunking some of your feats whilst Geek couldn't do the reverse definitely didn't help your plausibility.

So ultimately, whilst Geek held his own, @higherpower had the right character, perks, counters on what mattered most, and a better knowledge of his opponents, earning him a victory. Good debate lads, any questions on my vote, do ask.

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#30  Edited By geekryan
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#31  Edited By ProfessorRespect  Online

l'll vote for @higherpower. On a overall basis, he was able to argue the case for Moon getting through this team pretty well, as well as having pretty in depth counters to Geek's points and objections. While I did buy that some of Geek's attacks would do some sort of damage (such as Sue's internal force fields) some of Geek's examples of this occuring seemed to be at random, and as Higher pointed out, some weren't even examples of internal attacks at all. RT debating for the most part is fine......if you know what you are talking about. Geek's scans for the most part didn't really give me that impression.

Geek's counters were decent, but lacked detail in some areas (arguing that Higher hadn't shown deruablity feats to most of his offence when he showed Moon no selling a Supernova.....which should be more than enough by itself to counter most suggestions of successful offence) and the counters to Moon not finding out where they were was also a weak argument. Showing examples of anime feats to counter the showings in the manga is also something that any experienced debater would also regard as a moot point, as both are usually very different in a lot of areas (the Yu-Gi-Oh and Jojo manga to their respective anime is a good example of this).

Overall, I think that Higher simply backed Geek into a corner, and forced him to play on the defencive all the time with his team, having to argue for the most part that his team could defend against Moon, hide from her successfully, and use unconventual attacks to hurt her. These were the critical points, and apart from a few small solid counters from Geek, he was unable to successfully argue for these points and convince myself.

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Ok then, seems like I will make the first vote.

Let's go down the list regarding points hat came up during this debate:

In terms of what @higherpower did right, he clearly and precisely showed off just how powerful Sailor Moon was, promptly eviscerating any chance of @geekryan winning a physicals game. The main debate here, from my perspective, was could the shields stay up, and the whole travel speed =/= combat speed shindig and could Sailor nuke Geek's team to hell before the internal tinkering happens.

Let's start with the shields, as that will take less time, since frankly, HP was able to show that Sailor's raw power was more than anything those shields had demonstrated, and whilst you may think this is just a 'muh character's stronger', honestly in a section like this where one must bust through a defense, that's really all that matters.

Now as for the travel speed =/= combat speed part of the equation, I'm honestly kinda torn, but I'm still gonna give this to HP. Whilst the travel speed itself never got debunked on HP's part, HP also made it clear that he was painting the picture of a case of Geek taking this kind of rule to it's logical extreme...and past it, at some point these two do overlap. Add on top that it was a fodder character who performed the feat, and hopefully you cans see where I'm getting at with this part of the argument.

And finally, the internal organ manipulation argument actually went to Geek, as I was convinced it would work on Sailor, but at this point, with both the speed and durability, it was a case of blitz or be blitzed, which HP was already winning in.

There were other things Geek did wrong unfortunately, namely the parallel to irl thing was completely in HP's favour, due to his well thought out rebuttal and Geek's counter arguments feeling lacking imo (tho heads up Geek, when talking about manga, the anime adaptation is generally irrelevant if things would contradict, which was where your whole lightning/light speed difference thing seems to come from. Tho there are some exceptions depending on the franchise), and HP correcting debunking some of your feats whilst Geek couldn't do the reverse definitely didn't help your plausibility.

So ultimately, whilst Geek held his own, @higherpower had the right character, perks, counters on what mattered most, and a better knowledge of his opponents, earning him a victory. Good debate lads, any questions on my vote, do ask.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts perfectly, just with significantly less disdain in regards to Geek's side of the "parallel to IRL" thing.

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@diarrhearegatta: Thanks for voting, and for the detailed explanation

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps said:

Ok then, seems like I will make the first vote.

Let's go down the list regarding points hat came up during this debate:

In terms of what @higherpower did right, he clearly and precisely showed off just how powerful Sailor Moon was, promptly eviscerating any chance of @geekryan winning a physicals game. The main debate here, from my perspective, was could the shields stay up, and the whole travel speed =/= combat speed shindig and could Sailor nuke Geek's team to hell before the internal tinkering happens.

Let's start with the shields, as that will take less time, since frankly, HP was able to show that Sailor's raw power was more than anything those shields had demonstrated, and whilst you may think this is just a 'muh character's stronger', honestly in a section like this where one must bust through a defense, that's really all that matters.

Now as for the travel speed =/= combat speed part of the equation, I'm honestly kinda torn, but I'm still gonna give this to HP. Whilst the travel speed itself never got debunked on HP's part, HP also made it clear that he was painting the picture of a case of Geek taking this kind of rule to it's logical extreme...and past it, at some point these two do overlap. Add on top that it was a fodder character who performed the feat, and hopefully you cans see where I'm getting at with this part of the argument.

And finally, the internal organ manipulation argument actually went to Geek, as I was convinced it would work on Sailor, but at this point, with both the speed and durability, it was a case of blitz or be blitzed, which HP was already winning in.

There were other things Geek did wrong unfortunately, namely the parallel to irl thing was completely in HP's favour, due to his well thought out rebuttal and Geek's counter arguments feeling lacking imo (tho heads up Geek, when talking about manga, the anime adaptation is generally irrelevant if things would contradict, which was where your whole lightning/light speed difference thing seems to come from. Tho there are some exceptions depending on the franchise), and HP correcting debunking some of your feats whilst Geek couldn't do the reverse definitely didn't help your plausibility.

So ultimately, whilst Geek held his own, @higherpower had the right character, perks, counters on what mattered most, and a better knowledge of his opponents, earning him a victory. Good debate lads, any questions on my vote, do ask.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts perfectly, just with significantly less disdain in regards to Geek's side of the "parallel to IRL" thing.

LOL, thanks for voting

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geekryan

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@emperorthanos- hey, can you tag some people and change the OP to open for votes please?

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APEX_pretador

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I'll vote in a while

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TheWatcherKing

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Fine, I guess I’ll vote soon.

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helloman

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Whoa! D:

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Ill try to get on this soon.

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Will vote on this soon, if not remind me by Monday.

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#42  Edited By TheWatcherKing

Um, okay so I am voting for @higherpower: for mainly three reasons. Sailor Moon

  1. Had the power to one shot literally everyone in this match at the same time.
  2. Was faster than all of her opponents, as Geek conceded to himself.
  3. She had the ability to sense her opponents despite not being detected being Geek‘s plan here.

Really those three things alone would be good enough for me but really there is more to it than that. Quite frankly I wasn’t convinced at all that Geek’s team had the ability to hurt Sailor Moon in nearly any way. HP shown Sailor Moon literally tanked the equivalent of a supernova, but despite that @geekryan: wasn’t convinced that MCU fodder that gets ripped apart by Captain America can’t hurt her? Maybe I am crazy but that wasn’t at all a good argument. Now I will say that Jean/Magneto’s ability to affect people’s blood internally did seem like a viable option for taking out Sailor Moon... but the chances that they will go right to that attack(morals off or not they don’t know nothing else will work) seem pretty slim. Not to mention they’re still way slower so a morals off Sailor Moon will still have atomized them the second the fight begins.

The final part of Geek’s argument that I had a problem with really didn’t do him any favors. He argued that the fact that Sailor Moon is an anime character in a world where physics are ignored means that we can’t seriously judge SM’s luminosity based feats. Which is quite frankly not only an objectively bad argument, but hypocritical as Marvel ignores physics for there characters in 99% of the comics they publish. So the fact that Geek literally had the audacity to such an argument was weird to me as I can’t really think of a fictional universe above street level that doesn’t ignore the laws of physics in some way or another, going by Geek’s logic 99% of feats in fiction become unquantifiable because the real world doesn’t work like fiction.

So to reiterate, I vote for HP because Sailor Moon seemed to have everything needed to curbstomp Geek’s team. It didn’t hurt that his opponent made nonsensical arguments in an attempt to win.

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geekryan

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@thewatcherking: Your votes have consistently always been biased against me, but alright. Thanks for voting.

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Maalik

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@geekryan: Shouldn't worry about that, he seems to have given a lot of thought into it either way.

I'll see if i can find some time to vote.

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TheWatcherKing

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@geekryan said:

@thewatcherking: Your votes have consistently always been biased against me, but alright. Thanks for voting.

I don’t vote with bias, but if you think that then tell ET to ignore my vote. I don’t care.

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geekryan

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@geekryan said:

@thewatcherking: Your votes have consistently always been biased against me, but alright. Thanks for voting.

I don’t vote with bias, but if you think that then tell ET to ignore my vote. I don’t care.

I don't care enough to ask ET to do that and get into this whole issue.

Your vote was detailed, and not just quoted like it normally is, but it's super negative towards me and very much one-sided.

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JSDoctor

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I'll probably vote on this in 9-10ish hours.

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@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps said:

Ok then, seems like I will make the first vote.

Let's go down the list regarding points hat came up during this debate:

In terms of what @higherpower did right, he clearly and precisely showed off just how powerful Sailor Moon was, promptly eviscerating any chance of @geekryan winning a physicals game. The main debate here, from my perspective, was could the shields stay up, and the whole travel speed =/= combat speed shindig and could Sailor nuke Geek's team to hell before the internal tinkering happens.

Let's start with the shields, as that will take less time, since frankly, HP was able to show that Sailor's raw power was more than anything those shields had demonstrated, and whilst you may think this is just a 'muh character's stronger', honestly in a section like this where one must bust through a defense, that's really all that matters.

Now as for the travel speed =/= combat speed part of the equation, I'm honestly kinda torn, but I'm still gonna give this to HP. Whilst the travel speed itself never got debunked on HP's part, HP also made it clear that he was painting the picture of a case of Geek taking this kind of rule to it's logical extreme...and past it, at some point these two do overlap. Add on top that it was a fodder character who performed the feat, and hopefully you cans see where I'm getting at with this part of the argument.

And finally, the internal organ manipulation argument actually went to Geek, as I was convinced it would work on Sailor, but at this point, with both the speed and durability, it was a case of blitz or be blitzed, which HP was already winning in.

There were other things Geek did wrong unfortunately, namely the parallel to irl thing was completely in HP's favour, due to his well thought out rebuttal and Geek's counter arguments feeling lacking imo (tho heads up Geek, when talking about manga, the anime adaptation is generally irrelevant if things would contradict, which was where your whole lightning/light speed difference thing seems to come from. Tho there are some exceptions depending on the franchise), and HP correcting debunking some of your feats whilst Geek couldn't do the reverse definitely didn't help your plausibility.

So ultimately, whilst Geek held his own, @higherpower had the right character, perks, counters on what mattered most, and a better knowledge of his opponents, earning him a victory. Good debate lads, any questions on my vote, do ask.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts perfectly, just with significantly less disdain in regards to Geek's side of the "parallel to IRL" thing.

Yeah pretty much agree with all off this as well.

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APEX_pretador

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I'll drop a vote today

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marvelfan1992

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Vote goes to @higherpower. He was able to counter against geek's strategy of taking her out with internal attacks and initially being hidden by saying SSM would just unleash a huge blast off the bat. Unfortunately, the difference in power is just too huge, kinda unfair lol but anyway i guess that's just how things in a tournament are. Props to @geekryan for coming up with a viable strat to actually take her down, and it would have worked IMO if Sailor Moon were not blood lusted as well. However, I too was not a fan of attacking the luminosity vs irl thing. I do like how geek provided a lot of feats to show what his team is capable of, whereas HP kinda just gave a few and banked on those, but I guess she's just that much more powerful that those were all that were needed.

Anyway, good job to both participants