2019 High Tier PYP 1st Edition: Major_hellstrom vs Foxerdes

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#1 Edited by emperorthanos- (16898 posts) - - Show Bio

Time for round 1

@major_hellstrom

Characters

  • Mothra (1)
  • Mano (5)
  • Abra Kadabra (6)
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Perks

  • Light speed (Mano) (7)
  • 2 Extra character points (5)
  • Invisibility (2) (Abra Kadabra)
  • 1 hour prep (1)
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@foxerdes

Characters:

  • Malekith (3)
  • Dr.Fate (7).
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Feats:

  • Prep negation (10)
  • perfect teamwork (5)

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. Time Jumping, remnants, speeding up ones own time is allowed. Other forms of time manip is banned.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Power Copying/stealing.
  8. No Summons, constructs or any other fodder stronger than 616 Bleeding Edge Iron Man.
  9. Summons are limited to 200
  10. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote is unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet inside a Solar System like others, with no other people on it except for the fighters.

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#2 Edited by ProfessorRespect (8901 posts) - - Show Bio

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#4 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes@diarrhearegatta

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One Minute Death Squad

For this post, I'm going to skip all the intro stuff and get right into the meat of the debate. This is because I am using two underutilized DC villains, meaning they don't have a bunch of feats or history that I need to explain.

Now, the goal of this team is simple, it is to kill the enemy team in a minute or less. This can be done because each member of my team has the ability to defeat an enemy near instantaneously, hence the name. Let me start by breaking it down for you, starting with Mano.

Mano

First of all, let's talk about speed. Now, as you may have noticed Mano has the lightspeed perk which gives him lightspeed travel, reaction and combat speed, which should make him faster than your team (or at the very least much faster than Malekith). With lightspeed Mano would be able to circle an Earth-sized planet 7 and a half times in a second.

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Mano is also pretty agile just with his own speed.

Destroys missiles

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Uses agility to outmaneuver Persuader

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This important because Mano's power can kill or destroy any being with just a touch.

A sample of Mano disintegrating a ton of steel with a touch

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Here he disintegrates a Legionnaire with a touch

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He can even destroy energy fields with his hand, as he demonstrates against Brainiac while saying that his anti-matter hand can disintegrate anything.

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It should also be noted that Mano was continuously destroying those shields, the same ones that had stopped Superman dead in his tracks earlier.

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Dialogue confirms Superman was moving at blur speeds to Sun Boy, so he certainly was trying for the blitz.

Another important thing to note here is the word anti-matter as it is a type of hax that requires a special defense against, one that is treated as incredibly powerful in comics in general.

Here are some feats for anti-matter

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  • Scan 1: Experimental anti-matter gun shuts down Franklin Richard's brain, who was building enough power to threaten the solar system.
  • Scan 2-3: Drax destroys Thanos with an anti-matter grenade.
  • Scan 4: Anti-matter bomb destroys a planet.
  • Scan 5: Anti-matter shells pierces Celestials.

And before you say that's just Marvel, let's not forget that one of DC's most overpowered villains, in their history, Anti-Monitor, got his power from the Anti-Matter Universe.

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But wait, there's more.

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  • Scan 1: Superman states that anti-matter meeting regular matter is mutually assured destruction, saying that even Kryptonians aren't immune to its effects.
  • Scan 2: Confirmation that anti-matter can effect Superboy and Validus a solid pre-crisis team buster.
  • Scan 3: Superman states an anti-matter explosion would damage the space-time continuum.
  • Scan 4: Spectre confirms that anti-matter touching regular matter is mutally assured destruction.
  • Scan 5: Upon contact with anti-matter, Spectre's body is deformed despite being a spectre.

Now, I'm not here just to list down feats for just anti-matter, because Mano himself has one particularly impressive feat of destruction himself that proves his might. That feat being the destruction of his entire planet and everyone in it.

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Though he did strain himself, it is important to note this was done on a whim. Another showing of power was when Mano's hand stopped the Persuader's ax.

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Same ax that can cut through anything.........no, not hyperbolically, literally anything. Including gravity.

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Conclusion: With the lightspeed perk Mano possesses and his incredibly powerful anti-matter hand, you'd be hard-pressed to avoid just getting dusted by Mano, Spidey style.

Abra Kadabra

Now in terms of Abra Kadabra, you'd have to be dealing with a different type of hax. Assuming you can even deal with anti-matter, you'd have to also somehow have high-level transmutation resistance to avoid instant defeat. But before I explain why, let me first go back to speed because Abra is first and foremost a Flash villain, so I have no doubt that he can match or even outspeed your characters in spell casting.

For starters, Abra has been able to react to an angry Flash mid blitz by hitting him with lightning.

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He does so multiple times.

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As for transmutation, he is able to turn the Flash into light mid blitz, while saying that the Flash is lightspeed.

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He can even react to two Flashes at the same time.

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In recent times he has even outright outsped Wally West, yes you heard that right.

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In case you missed it, it is actually outright stated by Wally himself.

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So yeah, there's no way you're going to out-cast this guy. Meaning we get the first strike, and with that advantage, Kadabra can do a thousand things to end the fight early. Starting with Kadabra's favorite feat, turning people into puppets.

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He can also turn you into a jack-in-the-box

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Make you old and overweight

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Rapidly age you until you die

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Or turn you into a tortoise

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Also, just in case transmutation doesn't work, he can just puppet you anyway through magic. As he demonstrates here when he forces Barry to run, and Jay and Supes to freeze in running positions.

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Also just in case you want to bring up magic resistance, Kadabra isn't just magic, he is tech.

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Which means magic resistance means squat. This was actually confirmed in the Silver Age in the only time Fate and Kadabra (to my knowledge)

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And that was classic Fate who couldn't reverse Kadabra's spells, a stronger version of him.

Conclusion: Abra Kadabra is fast enough to react to and sometimes even toy with Flash, giving him a first mover's advantage. With it he can instantly end the fight by way of transmutation, rapidly aging you or just controlling your bodies to follow his command. Also, unless modern Fate has explicit feats showing otherwise, I'm pretty sure I've got your number when it comes to this duel.

Initial Thoughts

At the first second of this fight, I see Mano instantly vaporizing Malekith and trying to do the same to Fate. If Fate somehow survives it (which is yet to be proven), Kadabra can simply transmute him into something harmless, which Fate's magic shouldn't be able to prevent. Since my team members are likely faster than yours we get to go on the offensive, which is something I doubt you can stop. Also just to put the icing on the cake, Mothra can spread paralyzing dust to slow your guys down even further (only using her for this now cause I doubt we even need her to win).

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#5 Posted by geekryan (6198 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#7 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: I hope you don't mind me editing my post a bit.

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#10 Posted by emperorthanos- (16898 posts) - - Show Bio
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#11 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by emperorthanos- (16898 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by emperorthanos- (16898 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Posted by Lil_Remains (1767 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for Fox because I don’t like Major.

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#22 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for Fox because I don’t like Major.

Y not tho.

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#23 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18964 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for Fox because I don’t like Major.

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#24 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
s said:

I vote for Fox because I don’t like Major.

I'm not gonna ask y tho to you because I already know.

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#25 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: Good opener, and a good mix of characters. Unfortunately, I have found a few issues in your arguments which I will explain below. I'm also not going to address everything you said.

Counters:

First and foremost, he faces two sorcerers at once. When it comes to knowledge and sheer power he cannot match Fate, but he would have to also constantly watch out for Malekith. Not even 64th century tech can stop the sorcerer supreme and one of the most powerful spellcaster in the nine realms at the same time.

Additionally, his foes work in perfect tandem. Mano, Mothra and Abra are not going to work together or communicate. Each man for himself. Meanwhile Fate and Malekith can pull off suprising maneuvers, aid and protect each other in battle, gain tempo advantage (or action economy if we speak DnD-esque fashion.) et cetera.

This relies on the presumption that this will be a 2v1 fight, when it is a 2v3 fight in favor of me. This also relies on the presumption that Malekith will last more than half a second, something you failed to prove.

Kadabra is a showman. He uses the wand or says Abra Kadabra before using some of his tech, and while you find instances in which he simply performs his tricks, there is plethora in which he displays this character flaw. Malekith on the other hand is a sadistic murderer who enjoys the hunt and stench of death; Fate is cold and calculating. Flamboyant behaviour can be his undoing, even if it's just one or two scenarios out of ten.

Kadabra is a showman, yes. But he is also insane.

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And he has no qualms with killing people with a wave of his hand.

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The only difference is he kills with a flair of magic.

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The arena is large. Unless Kadabra has some really good combat awarness feats, it's very possible that Malekith first disappears beyond his field of vision and then kills him from behind.

We start at the same location, in order to disappear before Abra murders him Malekith would have to cast faster than Abra. One of these guys fight the fastest man alive daily, and the other gets beaten down by Slowdinson. It's pretty obvious who'll cast first.

And finally you have the wild hunt that, if not dealt with before (and that would provide the duo an opportunity to take him out), can prove to be his undoing since they can still smell him.

Let's get this out of the way now. I know you like Malekith, but as far as you've shown here, Malekith is basically a swiss army knife that doesn't open. Versatile, yes, but useless all the same. This is because he will die instantly, either by the hand of Mano or the magic of Abra.

As for how the actual fight would look like -- I feel like matter manipulation, be it through magic or technology, if way too often treated like an instant victory. It hardly is. One important question has to be ask: "why"? Why aren't magical duels just a cowboy-like fights of who turns the other into a frog first. The answer is: Because the other side has countermeasures as well. Dr.Fate clearly demonstrated that he can redirect energy and stop Modru magick (scan next to the one with Detective Chimp; his right hand is seen redirecting magical energy.) He ought to deal with powerful freaks on daily basis - it's only natural he can protect yourself from having your molecules rearranged.

Yeah, Fate can countermagic. But magic isn't being used here. Again, in the only time Fate and Abra meet, Fate was powerless against Abra.

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Yes, it is a different continuity but this Fate was more powerful than current Fate and you have shown no evidence to show that your Fate has any showing that would debunk this argument.

That being said, Kadabra do have the tools to delay the inevitable for a short period of time. He is faster than both and he starts invisible. Unfortunately, the second aspect is negligible. Inza Nelson could scan an entire galaxy and Hector stated he can see fate of all living beings, as well as the future. The very first issue of his own series showcased him fighting demons while all of that was invisible to human eye. Helmet each Dr.Fate wears, seems to grant power and vision far beyond simple charlatan-like invisibility. There is soul, mind and many other ways to perceive living beings.

Sadly for Fate, this isn't a battle of attrition, this is a quick draw. While he will be busy tracking Abra, Abra will be busy killing him.

Mano can move at the speed of light. It is fast but not fast enough to blitz Malekith, let alone Fate. Doctor Fate was fast enough to bind Eclipso controlled Etrigan. The same Etrigan that could to an extend keep up with pre-flashpoint Clark and give hell of a fight to Lobo; both of whom kept up with Flashes in their own way -

So your argument is that Fate fought Etrigan, who fought Lobo\Supes who fought Flash? I must say that the level of scaling you are using here is astonishing, to say the least. Not only is there way too many links in your chain (Abra for example scales directly to Flash) but the argument itself is not sound.

Superman when he raced Jay and Lobo when he predicted Flash's trajectory and caught him with a hook.

When Superman raced Jay, who is the slowest Flash of them all, which cements Abra being the fastest here. Also, I assume you mean this Lobo scan?

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Cause that's from Lobo #50 (1993), and it also never happened, it was a dream. The comic ends like this.

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That's because in addition to tagging the Flash, Lobo kills the entire Justice League and JSA that issue, and obviously that never happened in-canon because it was a dream.

Clark has sundry speed feats on his own as well. Then as an icing on the cake you have Hector Hall fighting Modru and even beating him in the second encounter. The same Modru BFR'ed both Jay and Diana trying to bullrush him.

So now you are scaling Fate tor Modru to Flash. Scaling x 10.

And on the same panel it was stated Garrick could move at the speed approaching that of light. He wouldn't actualy reach it tho, since at the time he was of opinion such act would have dire consequences.

He doesn't reach it because he can't. He says so himself in JSA #20 (1999)

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In fact, when he does reach lightspeed, he steals Black Adam's speed to do it (doing so also made him snap into the speed force). So this makes 2 for 2 in the column of characters that are slower than Mano.

Nonetheless Mano moving at lightspeed will not be an issue for Fate.

Too bad the only thing you've shown is that Fate can't even handle lightspeed, you've only referenced people who are supposedly lightspeed or can tango with Flashes except Lobo never tagged a Flash and Jay isn't lightspeed.

Before he get close, Doctor can take him out with telepathy (he was ordering people and wiping their memories with mere words), turn him into harmless little animal or remove any desire to fight furthermore. There are way too many options to name them all. As if that's not enough, Fate has multiply ways of staying away and misdirecting him, like teleportation or clones (up to ten per rules).

Quality over quantity, yeah Fate could do those things but the difference here is that while Fate has a dozen win condition that could happen, Mano's has one that will happen.

Bottom line is Mano cannot do much here.

Except instantly destroy your team. Which isn't nothing, unlike your team will be.

With no range attacks (can he fly?) he is helpless against sorcerer of Fate's caliber and we are not taking into account Malekith yet; hecan contribute here as well. I am one of those people who firmly believe Thor's multitude of great speed feats actually mean something. God of Thunder fought in microseconds and could duke it out with the likes of Silver Surfer or Adam Warlock. Malekith consistently, through the entire history of their fights, spit in Thor's face by disappearing right before his strike could reach him, moving swiftly in between flurry of Mjolnir blows like when he opened the casket of ancient winters, or teleporting out of hammer throw's way; he even BFR'ed it with a smile on his face. Thor could only watch ramifications of his mistake.

Wow, Malekith outsped Thor. Who else can do that........

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A bunch of guys who aren't close to being able to react to lightspeed. Because reaction sped is not combat speed, and speed doesn't scale the way you propose. Just fighting a person who is fast doesn't make you fast, especially if you have no way of proving that speed was in a factor in said the fight (something you didn't even attempt to prove).

Both Manu and Kadabra are faster than Malekith,

As I expected, meaning Mano makes Malekith disappear.

but let's not forget that he can - in an instant - teleport anywhere he wants or vanish in the shadows. That and phasing. King of the Dark Elves is more than capable of contributing in this fight; especially when you take into account his perfect teamwork with Fate.

Good abilities, it's a waste that they won't be of any use. Since Malekith cannot hope to react to light, Mano is going to bullrush him with his anti-matter hand and take him out instantly.

Summary

I made my team simple, the goal is to kill the enemy in an instant. This was so that I would save time on making posts. And as far as I see, you hav failed to prove that you are fast enough to react to Mano or take his anti-matter hand, so he could solo your team. Abra, more powerful and faster, would do it even quicker. Combined and these two make extremely quick work of your duo. It'll happen so fast that Mothra won't even comprehend what happened before the battle ends.

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#26 Posted by emperorthanos- (16898 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by emperorthanos- (16898 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: ET announced that me and a bunch of other dudes are moving on.......

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#32 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@foxerdes: Idk if I should. It’s finals week for me next week.