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#1 Edited by EmperorThanos- (16050 posts) - - Show Bio

Time for round 1

@kevd4wg

Characters

  • Plutonian(6)
  • Ronan(3)
  • Fox Magneto(1)
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Perks

  • Mind/Soul Immunity(7)
  • Basic Knowledge(5)
  • Adamantium Weapons(2)
  • 1 Hour Prep(1)
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@precrisisbardock

Characters

  • Jiren 10
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Perks

  • Basic Knowlege 5
  • Prep negation 10

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. Time Jumping, remnants, speeding up ones own time is allowed. Other forms of time manip is banned.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Power Copying/stealing.
  8. No Summons, constructs or any other fodder stronger than 616 Bleeding Edge Iron Man.
  9. Summons are limited to 200
  10. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote is unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet inside a Solar System like others, with no other people on it except for the fighters.

No Caption Provided

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#2 Posted by EmperorThanos- (16050 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Chronicplane (8848 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP, Kev is gonna have a hard time here with that prep negation.

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#4 Posted by Kevd4wg (12512 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by justicethorpsylocke (3070 posts) - - Show Bio

TAG

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#6 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8736 posts) - - Show Bio

Opener

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Physicals:

Striking

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Can easily counter SSB x 20 Gokus Kamehameha with a mere uppercut.

At a bare minimum a Solar System level + feat considering infinitely weaker Super saiyan 2 Kamehamehas are Solar system level.

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So even if we assume SSJ2 Buu saga Goku = Super Saiyan Blue Goku Jiren can casually uppercut an attack 20x Solar System level.

Durability:

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Able to block SSG Goku with 1 finger.

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Far weaker SSG Goku was threatening the universe with his punches.

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And pre-God Goku was able to completely punch through the center King Kais planet, which is ten tmes the gravity of earth so is much much much more dense. Easily a multi planetary striking feat which some calcs put as dwarf star level.

Speed

Easily massively faster than light:

Literally faster than time manipulation casually.

Casually blitzes Goku and ='s constantly.

Early DBZ Goku speeds:

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Saiyan Saga:

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  • Piccolo's regular blast is able to reach the moon in an instant.
  • Takes Light about 1.5 secs to reach the moon.
  • Raditz was able to dodge a close range Special Beam Cannon (His best attack).
  • Saiyan Saga Goku was able to blitz Nappa, who could effortlessly keep up with Z fighters who blitzed Saibamen = to Raditz.

Beginning Namek:

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Mid Namek:

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(More of a strength feat, but just to show consistency, literally escaped light somehow when its surrounding him)

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Dodges an even faster attack.

Can go on and on if needed.

Conclusion:

  • Ronan and Mags are sweet but they're gonna get fodderized before they have a chance, their reaction times and durability are too low.
  • Plutonian has Picosecond reaction time, but Jiren blitzes characters at that caliber.
  • From my knowledge I'd say Plutonian should get KOd before he can use any of his matter manip, especially since Jiren has knowledge. One good punch should have him out.

@kevd4wg all you

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#7 Posted by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (10500 posts) - - Show Bio

lol, TAEP.

Online
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#8 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

RIP Kevd

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#11 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7525 posts) - - Show Bio

Wasn’t Kev facing kol

Anyway great openers from PCB

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#12 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8736 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by Kevd4wg (12512 posts) - - Show Bio

@precrisisbardock: Sorry, I got another CaV I'm working on, I'll have it up by the end of the weekend

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#14 Posted by Kevd4wg (12512 posts) - - Show Bio

The Fallen

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Strategy

So starting out with the relevant perks I have, I have basic knowledge and adamantium Weapons, adamantium weapons will of course go to Plutonian, where he can cut you up. For reference I'll show some showings of adamantium that a street tier with bullet timing speed and like 2 tonner strength can do.

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  1. Ignore pls, shameless copy from another CaV
  2. Wolverine's claws casually cut through Gladiator(Annihilators: Earthfall #2)
  3. Wolverine's claws cut Thor(Wolverine vs Thor #2)
  4. Wolverine's claws easily cut through Mangog(Thunderstrike vol 2 #5)
  5. And most impressively Wolverine's claws easily cut through Thanos(Infinity Gauntlet #4)

Meanwhile Plutonian has solar system level strength and MFTL speed. First for his strength, he has two instances of having strength on that level.

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  • Scan 1-3: Plutonian stands up under the weight of a solar system(Irredeemable #21)
  • Scan 4-6: Plutonian carries something around the globe that's so heavy it collapses into a neutron star(Irredeemable #37)

As for being MFTL in Irredeemable #17 Plutonian outpaces a beam that lasts only a picosecond

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So instead of Wolverine(Who can already cut through high tiers - teambusters), you have someone trillions of times stronger and faster, it's gonna go right through Jiren. Now while my other characters can't keep up with Jiren, if Jiren is paused for even a second, Ronan can use some of his hax on Jiren like in Annihilation: Ronan #1 where he matter manipulates a dudes hand into a bomb.

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Counters

At a bare minimum a Solar System level + feat considering infinitely weaker Super saiyan 2 Kamehamehas are Solar system level.

Based off a statement from an arrogant villain that never actually showed this kind of power.

Far weaker SSG Goku was threatening the universe with his punches.

  1. That was combined with Beerus
  2. The shockwaves got more powerful as they traveled, which makes them obviously not legit. The Earth wasn't even threatened by this
  3. If we take this the way you said it, you would be arguing Jiren above Odin level and therefore too much for the tourney.

And pre-God Goku was able to completely punch through the center King Kais planet, which is ten tmes the gravity of earth so is much much much more dense. Easily a multi planetary striking feat which some calcs put as dwarf star level.

Firstly, ew calcs, and secondly calcs put this all over the place, quite a bit of calcs put this around moon level which is obviously no where near the Dwarf Star you're claiming.

Literally faster than time manipulation casually.

Which means what? Marvel's Adam Warlock has broken out of Time Manip and he doesn't have a single FTL combat feat to his name. Breaking Time Manipulation =/= MFTL, it's just some vague amount of speed.

Piccolo's regular blast is able to reach the moon in an instant.

Did it through? Because this is the full scan

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You can see before the moon is destroyed there's a mushroom cloud and after there isn't(toward the bottom), mushroom clouds don't dissipate instantaneously.

Of course this is all also contradicted by how blown away everyone in DB was by Dypso's just FTL speed

Beginning Namek:

This is a fan translation, which can be made by literally anyone saying literally anything, the actual translation is

No Caption Provided

(More of a strength feat, but just to show consistency, literally escaped light somehow when its surrounding him)

How is this a speed feat?

Dodges an even faster attack.

Once again a fan translation

Can go on and on if needed.

I sure hope so, right now you haven't proven that Jiren can keep up with Plutonian, much less blitz him.

Conclusion

The battle starts and Plutonian bullrushes him, chopping his head off with Adamantium weapons

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#15 Posted by Kevd4wg (12512 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by Aqualion0 (1469 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#17 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8736 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8736 posts) - - Show Bio

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Counters:

you have someone trillions of times stronger and faster, it's gonna go right through Jiren.

Jiren is massively faster than Plutonian for one and for two Jiren can literally stare him away.

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1. Blocks attack from all out Hit who fodderized God Vegeta

2. Can attack long range.

3. Blocked attack from bloodlusted golden Freeza, a weaker almost dead Freeza slapped the Earth and Earth Exploded into tiny bits

4. Blocked Royal Blue Vegeta's final flash (Ultimate attack). Beginning of series Vegeta could destroy Earth and Vegeta as Ssj2 surpassed Solar system level.

5. Suppressed is able to push back a Kaioken x 20 SSB Spirit bomb. (This is bare min 400 x Goku's power since the base spirit bomb was > Kaioken x20 and then ha stacked Kaioken x 20 on top of it).

Plutonians not getting near him much less touching him.

Based off a statement from an arrogant villain that never actually showed this kind of power.

Your whole first strength feat was a statement as was the second one. It is also confirmed by author statements:

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The guide is call "Dragon Ball The Legend of Manga", this guide is exclusively dedicated to the Manga

- el androide acumuló energia como para destruir todo el sistema solar y lanzó um poderoso kamehame-há.

- the android accumulated energy to destroy the entire solar system and threw a mighty Kamehameha.

Published by the Bird Studio, the manga and design production studio created by Akira Toriyama that is based in Nagoya, Japan.

  1. That was combined with Beerus
  2. The shockwaves got more powerful as they traveled, which makes them obviously not legit. The Earth wasn't even threatened by this
  3. If we take this the way you said it, you would be arguing Jiren above Odin level and therefore too much for the tourney.

Well we know the reason it got stronger was because they were trying to cancel out the collateral damage

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And no I'm not arguing him above Odin level, Plutonian has just never dealt with that level of strength before and isn't handling it while this level of strength isn't worthy of Jiren breaking a sweat.

Whether the punches could destroy the universe are irrelevant, they are in that league and Plutonian caps out at Solar system level as you have shown.

I sure hope so, right now you haven't proven that Jiren can keep up with Plutonian, much less blitz him.

Jiren while still heavily suppressed can dodge attacks from UI Goku and fight evenly.

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UI Goku blitzes characters thousands of times FTL

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Then we later learn Jiren was holding back heavily the whole time when he has to power up after Goku/Vegeta get stronger.

So like I said Jiren>Goku who outsped Dyspo>=Thousands FTL (Confirmed and undebateable)>Tracking a "Picosecond long battle report" to its builder.

And even upon closer examination of this "Feat" it doesn't even say the signal moves in a picosecond it says the report itself it a picosecond. The signal is mentioned as entirely different and likely moves at the speed of a normal radio signal. This is further corroborated as the robots were able to react to Pluto even though they couldn't hit him they could still perceive him and attempt. To top it all of since he;s racing a Signal it's travel speed. If I'm racing a car that's not even headed towards me even if I'm winning that doesn't mean I'm 50 + mph in combat.

Conclusions:

  • Outstatted in every category, you have no durability feats showing you can tank any attacks
  • No good speed feats that say you won't be a statue to Jiren. You even admitted most your team can't keep up.
  • You even stated Pluto is gonna bullrush so you just leave him open to a free KO.
  • Any hax is negated due to the fact that the fight will be over before Ronan realizes, especially since Jiren has knowledge.
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#19 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8736 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Posted by TheKinfing (11699 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting.

Online
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#21 Posted by deactivated-5c917f846ef0b (1264 posts) - - Show Bio

Weak bait

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#22 Posted by Warlockmage (9071 posts) - - Show Bio

Kev could probably go to votes now...

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#23 Posted by ThEBeStOfTheBeST (10500 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
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#24 Posted by Co-Boss (433 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait, jiren is considered high tier?

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#25 Posted by Kevd4wg (12512 posts) - - Show Bio

Counters

1. Blocks attack from all out Hit who fodderized God Vegeta

2. Can attack long range.

And how do either of these stop Plutonian from gutting him. I see no reason to think that these characters are as fast or as strong as Plutonian. Plus if he's busy restraining Plutonian, then Ronan can matter manip him. Like, it took hims some time to build that defense against Hit.

3. Blocked attack from bloodlusted golden Freeza, a weaker almost dead Freeza slapped the Earth and Earth Exploded into tiny bits

Star level stuff is literally 330,000 times more impressive then earth level stuff, so this doesn't matter to Plutonian.

4. Blocked Royal Blue Vegeta's final flash (Ultimate attack). Beginning of series Vegeta could destroy Earth and Vegeta as Ssj2 surpassed Solar system level.

I'd just like to point out how much you're relying on a single statement from an arrogant character that isn't backed up by any feats.

5. Suppressed is able to push back a Kaioken x 20 SSB Spirit bomb. (This is bare min 400 x Goku's power since the base spirit bomb was > Kaioken x20 and then ha stacked Kaioken x 20 on top of it).

Do you really, really think that the Math of Dragon Ball is that legit and straight forward? Because that's ridiculous.

Your whole first strength feat was a statement as was the second one. It is also confirmed by author statements:

The fact that you think they're the same is moronic. The first strength feat, actually happened and a scientist who knew what was happening described it. Plus we see other people get vaporized, it wasn't just plutonian off handily saying, I can stand up in solar system level gravity, he actually did it. The second feat, what are you talking about, it literally turned into a neutron star because of how dense it was.

The Key difference is Cell, an arrogant villain, said "I can destroy the solar system" and then no feats close to that pop up until DBS, there's no reason to think he can do it.

- the android accumulated energy to destroy the entire solar system and threw a mighty Kamehameha.

Guidebooks really aren't the most reliable, they're a secondary canon. Take this guidebook that says Nebula is a universal threat(lol)

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Same person Ronan fodderized

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Annihilation: Ronan 1/2

Guess Ronan solos then

Published by the Bird Studio, the manga and design production studio created by Akira Toriyama that is based in Nagoya, Japan.

That guidebook was published by marvel comics, the studio that makes comics with Ronan.

Well we know the reason it got stronger was because they were trying to cancel out the collateral damage

That's still not how shockwaves work, like at all. It's not like they caused a hit and the shockwaves destroyed a sun, the shockwaves were stronger then their hits, making the feat irrelevant. Cancelling out the collateral damage near them doesn't change how it affected the rest of the universe and how it got stronger past them.

And no I'm not arguing him above Odin level,

Odin caps out at low level universal at most(I don't think he's that powerful, I think he's more galaxy level), you're arguing Jiren stomped a Goku whose more powerful then a goku who can universe bust(which Odin can't do).

That's above Odin level, and just stupid.

UI Goku blitzes characters thousands of times FTL

Um no. Dypso can increase his speed thousands of times to go FTL, there's literally no reason, not one, 0, nada to think he's saying he can increase his speed thousands of times after going FTL, he's explaining how he goes FTL, literally none other then just wanking DB. Furthermore, that's only in his linear pattern, which UI Goku didn't blitz him during.

So like I said Jiren>Goku who outsped Dyspo>=Thousands FTL (Confirmed and undebateable)>Tracking a "Picosecond long battle report" to its builder.

That's completely debatable and not confirmed in the slightest. Plus, that's just some nasty power scaling.

And even upon closer examination of this "Feat" it doesn't even say the signal moves in a picosecond it says the report itself it a picosecond. The signal is mentioned as entirely different and likely moves at the speed of a normal radio signal. This is further corroborated as the robots were able to react to Pluto even though they couldn't hit him they could still perceive him and attempt. To top it all of since he;s racing a Signal it's travel speed. If I'm racing a car that's not even headed towards me even if I'm winning that doesn't mean I'm 50 + mph in combat.

Good thing he's just bullrushing Jiren's head off.\

Conclusion

The awful logic used to prove Jiren's power and speed just doesn't compare with the straight forward feats to prove Plutonians power level and there's still nothing to prove he can't just bullrush and chop off Jiren's head.

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#26 Posted by Kevd4wg (12512 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8736 posts) - - Show Bio

Quick counters

Guidebooks really aren't the most reliable, they're a secondary canon. Take this guidebook that says Nebula is a universal threat(lol)

Nebula never said she could destroy the universe. The guidebook didn't say Cell was a solar system threat. Cell said he could destroy the entire solar system, then the guide book confirms he in fact, could.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it not true smh.

The second feat, what are you talking about, it literally turned into a neutron star because of how dense it was.

First it didn't "literally turn into a neutron star"considering it was right by Earth secondly Plutonian almost died from that and was seriously incapped from it.

That's still not how shockwaves work, like at all. It's not like they caused a hit and the shockwaves destroyed a sun, the shockwaves were stronger then their hits, making the feat irrelevant. Cancelling out the collateral damage near them doesn't change how it affected the rest of the universe and how it got stronger past them.

I don't get what your saying, are you calling the author and narrator a liar? It's very easy to understand that they were trying to control the damage idk how you don't get it.

you're arguing Jiren stomped a Goku whose more powerful then a goku who can universe bust

I literally never said that lmao said nothing about universe busting, Plutonian can't take hits that cause shockwaves to reach other universes in less then a minute and threatened the macrocosm while Jiren can block those with one finger.

I don't care how hard you lowball it on the lowest of lowballs it's still far superior than anything Plutonian has shown in any of his showings, star level hits incap Plutonian.

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Even the biggest haters of DB relegate it to multi solar system level which obviously will level Plutonian even worse than she did.

Plutonian gets destroyed by this while Jiren stares away infinitely more powerful attacks so yes he's bullrushing and getting one shotted based on what you've shown.

Dypso can increase his speed thousands of times to go FTL,

Literally no proof to this lol, even you lowballing the piccolo feat puts it at relativistic and thousands of times that is way faster than Plutonian is, you're grasping at straws.

, that's just some nasty power scaling.

Not even power scaling lmao I just said Jiren could keep up and is faster than UIO Goku thhen explained to you how fast UI Goku is.

The awful logic used to prove Jiren's power and speed just doesn't compare with the straight forward feats to prove Plutonians power level and there's still nothing to prove he can't just bullrush and chop off Jiren's head.

You didn't even counter my challenge to the one "Speed feat" you posted of Plutonian where he chases a radio signal. The signal isn't moving relative to a picosecond (That doesn't even make sense picosecond isn't a speed it's a measurement of time) it just says the battle report that's inside of it is only a picosecond long, not to mention the robot guards clearly react to him.

He even gets beat by characters that don't have picosecond reaction time.

You've literally posted three featsof Plutonian throughout this entire debate either you're really overconfident or you have very little to work with. The speed feat isn't impressive and the strength feats aren't either. I've shown Plutionian is well below star level as star level attacks always end up incapacitating him easily while solidly showing Jiren is casually above it at the very least even with lowballing. You didn't even come up with a good strat you just sent Plutonian bull rushing to his death and every now in then you say Ronan will matter manip out of characterly even though you admit he can't even react to Jiren.

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#28 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8736 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by Aqualion0 (1469 posts) - - Show Bio

I literally never said that lmao said nothing about universe busting

Able to block SSG Goku with 1 finger. Far weaker SSG Goku was threatening the universe with his punches.

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#31 Edited by PreCrisisBardock (8736 posts) - - Show Bio

@aqualion0: “Threatening the universe” Never did I say Goku could bust the universe.

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#32 Posted by Kevd4wg (12512 posts) - - Show Bio

@precrisisbardock:

Counters

Nebula never said she could destroy the universe. The guidebook didn't say Cell was a solar system threat. Cell said he could destroy the entire solar system, then the guide book confirms he in fact, could.

Ah, I see my guidebook is less reliable because the arrogant villain with no feats to back it up didn't say. Makes sense, makes sense.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it not true smh.

Irony

First it didn't "literally turn into a neutron star"considering it was right by Earth secondly Plutonian almost died from that and was seriously incapped from it.

I see you have some trouble with reading, from my first post

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But yes the radiation from a neutron star messed him up. Honestly, you're helping me by just making such terrible arguments.

I don't get what your saying, are you calling the author and narrator a liar? It's very easy to understand that they were trying to control the damage idk how you don't get it.

Um... I'm calling the author and narrator a liar by pointing out shockwaves don't get stronger as they go outward? If stating basic science(as in like elementary school level) is calling the writer a lier, then we can't take anything from the writer seriously. So I guess all of Jiren's feats are pointless

I literally never said that lmao said nothing about universe busting

From your first post

threatening the universe

Then you say threatening has nothing to do with busting, but like, if you think that, are you dumb?

I don't care how hard you lowball it on the lowest of lowballs it's still far superior than anything Plutonian has shown in any of his showings, star level hits incap Plutonian.

Yes, how hard can I lowball as you post the biggest lowball either, yay. Lets actually take a look at this showing from Irredeemable #35 where Plutonian is having entire star system channeled into punches straight into him, yet stays conscious. Remember, it's not like this is solar system busting, this is solar systems being channeled into punches directly into him.

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Then you know soon flies a neutron star around earth. Sorry for being a massive lowballer though.

Even the biggest haters of DB relegate it to multi solar system level which obviously will level Plutonian even worse than she did.

Appealing to other people doesn't support your arguments or make you look any less stupid.

Also that's 100% not true, I've seen people claim Beerus is the only planet buster in DB and I don't even go on DB threads much.

Literally no proof to this lol, even you lowballing the piccolo feat puts it at relativistic and thousands of times that is way faster than Plutonian is, you're grasping at straws.

It doesn't make it relativistic, even ignoring the fact that we're pretending energy blasts are actually consistent in speed, and there's more proof to back up my view(as in I explained it instead of trying to look like an intellectual by being a condescending douchebag) then your view. Like what are you even talking about in this post.

You didn't even counter my challenge to the one "Speed feat" you posted of Plutonian where he chases a radio signal

Good thing you've somehow managed to fail to even prove Jiren is FTL, which really shouldn't be that hard. Plus, why would they mention the beam is a picosecond long if it was gonna be LS, for fun? Writer's intent is pretty clear.

That doesn't even make sense picosecond isn't a speed it's a measurement of time

Right, that's how long the signal was?

You've literally posted three featsof Plutonian throughout this entire debate

It's not like you've ever made me post more, you've just continued to make bad arguments and never made any good counters to them. Quantity =/= Quality anyway, those 3 feats prove my point of Plutonian bull rushing Jiren's head off, and you haven't proven that wrong.

Conclusion

Plutonian bullrushes Jiren's head off, if Jiren stops him then Ronan matter manips him while Jiren is doing his stand off to Plutonian like he did with Hit.

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#33 Posted by Kevd4wg (12512 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by DiarrheaRegatta (4417 posts) - - Show Bio

ET's gonna open this for votes soon but I'd figured I would throw my hat in before that happens.

In terms of debating quality, I personally feel like both sides made a pretty poor job of actually formatting and making a argument here. A lot of ad hominem and really unnecessary beef on both sides, which is a shame considering both of these guys are pretty good debaters with other people. It's a bit annoying to see debates slowly degrade to "your argument is stupid" but it happens.

Anyway, I think in terms of who debated better, I have to say @kevd4wg. His claims were backed up with a lot more tangible proof, and his counters to Bardock were solid and exposed a lot of holes in his argument in terms of his backtracking and questionable views on the power levels of his own characters. Funny thing is that I actually think that Jiren has a very good chance of beating this team in a normal setting, but Bardock's wank spoiled that for myself. He did ok with his initial post, but his counters were weak and not very airtight.

All in all, not a great debate, to be honest.

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#35 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8736 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: You wanna go to votes or should I make another post? I don’t like to debate once my opponent resorts to insulting me and calling me dumb lol

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#36 Posted by Kevd4wg (12512 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: You wanna go to votes or should I make another post? I don’t like to debate once my opponent resorts to insulting me and calling me dumb lol

You can make another post if you want, I probably won't counter it

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#37 Edited by PreCrisisBardock (8736 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8736 posts) - - Show Bio

@diarrhearegatta: Thanks for the feedback but just one question: How did “my wank” ruin my argument when I even pointed out that if I use his interpretation of Jirens feats they’re sufficient? I lowballed my character a lot to prove a point so forgive me if I’m confused about being accused of wanking the guy :/

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#39 Posted by PreCrisisBardock (8736 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-:

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#41 Posted by geekryan (4254 posts) - - Show Bio

This debate was all over the place and got pretty hostile... I very much agree with what @diarrhearegatta said:

In terms of debating quality, I personally feel like both sides made a pretty poor job of actually formatting and making a argument here. A lot of ad hominem and really unnecessary beef on both sides, which is a shame considering both of these guys are pretty good debaters with other people. It's a bit annoying to see debates slowly degrade to "your argument is stupid" but it happens.

Anyway, I think in terms of who debated better, I have to say @kevd4wg. His claims were backed up with a lot more tangible proof, and his counters to Bardock were solid and exposed a lot of holes in his argument in terms of his backtracking and questionable views on the power levels of his own characters. Funny thing is that I actually think that Jiren has a very good chance of beating this team in a normal setting, but Bardock's wank spoiled that for myself. He did ok with his initial post, but his counters were weak and not very airtight.

All in all, not a great debate, to be honest.

There was a serious lack of feats and practically no real arguments. It was just a lot of scaling, wanking, and low-balling.

My vote is pretty unbiased since I'm not familiar with Jiren or Plutonian/Ronan. Based on what was presented, this should have been a win for Jiren but Kev did a somewhat better job with the debating so my vote goes to @kevd4wg.

It was a pretty quick debate to read, but not very enjoyable due to the hostility.

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#42 Posted by Jacthripper (14894 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really want to vote on this one. It's honestly a bit painful to read. Too many scans, not enough debating.

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#43 Posted by Au_141 (977 posts) - - Show Bio

Yikes

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#44 Posted by APEX_pretador (19693 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: Hey could you remove me from callout lists? I am not going to vote

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#45 Posted by Streak619 (7532 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, not either of your best moments, to say the very least

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#46 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2467 posts) - - Show Bio

This debate was all over the place and got pretty hostile... I very much agree with what said:

In terms of debating quality, I personally feel like both sides made a pretty poor job of actually formatting and making a argument here. A lot of ad hominem and really unnecessary beef on both sides, which is a shame considering both of these guys are pretty good debaters with other people. It's a bit annoying to see debates slowly degrade to "your argument is stupid" but it happens.

Anyway, I think in terms of who debated better, I have to say @kevd4wg. His claims were backed up with a lot more tangible proof, and his counters to Bardock were solid and exposed a lot of holes in his argument in terms of his backtracking and questionable views on the power levels of his own characters. Funny thing is that I actually think that Jiren has a very good chance of beating this team in a normal setting, but Bardock's wank spoiled that for myself. He did ok with his initial post, but his counters were weak and not very airtight.

All in all, not a great debate, to be honest.

There was a serious lack of feats and practically no real arguments. It was just a lot of scaling, wanking, and low-balling.

My vote is pretty unbiased since I'm not familiar with Jiren or Plutonian/Ronan. Based on what was presented, this should have been a win for Jiren but Kev did a somewhat better job with the debating so my vote goes to @kevd4wg.

It was a pretty quick debate to read, but not very enjoyable due to the hostility.

I agree with basically all of this.

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#48 Posted by Aqualion0 (1469 posts) - - Show Bio

Voting to @kevd4wg. Not only his arguments convinced me , but PCB's claims were mostly illogical. I mean , you stated that Goku was threatening the universe with his punches and then literally denied that Goku was universal. It's not how debating works. At least for me.

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#49 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18247 posts) - - Show Bio

If I am being totally honest I think PCB’s argument for Jiren solo’ing was more convincing his getting blitzed by Plutonian and killed. Though I do think he was wanking Jiren heavily it did seem like he was more than capable of beating Kevd‘s team. I would vote for PCB.

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#50 Posted by EmperorThanos- (16050 posts) - - Show Bio