• 62 results
  • 1
  • 2
Avatar image for emperorthanos-
#1 Edited by EmperorThanos- (16041 posts) - - Show Bio

Time for round 1

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimp

Characters

  • Darkrai (1)
  • Mega Mewtwo (3)
  • Kirby (6)
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Perks

  • 1 hour of prep (1)
  • Spider sense (1 - Apply to Kirby)
  • Molecular Manip immunity (6)
  • Mind/Soul Immunity (7)
No Caption Provided

@xlr87t3

Characters:

  • Rebirth Superman 4
  • Pre-52 Martian Manhunter 6
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Perks:

  • Morals off 8
  • Basic knowledge 5
  • 1 hour prep 1
  • Batman martial arts (Superman) 1

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. Time Jumping, remnants, speeding up ones own time is allowed. Other forms of time manip is banned.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Power Copying/stealing.
  8. No Summons, constructs or any other fodder stronger than 616 Bleeding Edge Iron Man.
  9. Summons are limited to 200
  10. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote is unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet inside a Solar System like others, with no other people on it except for the fighters.

No Caption Provided

Online
Avatar image for amendment50
#2 Posted by Amendment50 (15154 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Avatar image for gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps
#3 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2465 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3 Can you go first, or do you want me to go first? I'm cool either way.

Avatar image for chronicplane
#4 Posted by Chronicplane (8836 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP.

Avatar image for geekryan
#6 Posted by geekryan (4252 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Avatar image for gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps
#7 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2465 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for mideast619
#8 Posted by Mideast619 (116 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Avatar image for oceanmaster21
#9 Posted by oceanmaster21 (15226 posts) - - Show Bio

t4v

Avatar image for gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps
#10 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2465 posts) - - Show Bio

Kirby, Mewtwo and Darkrai: Creatures of Various Shapes

No Caption Provided
Loading Video...

Kirby: Hero of Popstar

"Poyo!"

Let's start with the heavyweight of my group (in spite of being a walking marshmallow), Kirby, who serves as a monster in terms of physicals, and will be ripping my opponents to shreds with his well beyond planetary capabilities, with some light hax thrown around for good measure.

Abilities/Gear:

Kirby Dream Land 3
Kirby Dream Land 3

Let's start with Kirby's main "gear", the famed Warp Star, a magic, well, star that Kirby can spawn at basically any point and use as a mode of transportation.

Kirby Squeak Squad
Kirby Squeak Squad

The Warp Star has shown to be fast enough to go well over FTL speeds, in this instance going between seemingly different galaxies in a matter of a second, and whilst this can be chalked up to merely travel speed, Kirby has shown the to fight and inhale others whilst flying around on a Warp Star (hell, that's basically the entire concept behind Kirby Air Ride, using various types of Warp Stars/Air Machines to outrace opponents, swallowing up and attacking foes as they travel), so this can still transfer into other types of speed in regards to Kirby himself.

Kirby Triple Deluxe
Kirby Triple Deluxe

Speaking of Inhaling enemies, let's discuss that. As seen above, Kirby has the ability to absorb any enemy he can find and absorb them into his stomach (which is actually it's own separate pocket dimension) and then transfer their power into one of his many copy abilities. Whilst within the rules presented Inhalation may seem like a form-of BFR, but it still can be used to catch some projectiles and allow access to Kirby's wide array of Copy Abilities, or just a means of completely absorbing enemies and coping their powers as a result, Majin Buu style.

Kirby Triple Deluxe
Kirby Triple Deluxe

Being able to tap into his pocket dimension at any point allows Kirby access to basically all of his abilities at any point, and if I listed them all we'd be here all day, but the one I want to highlight for now is Hypernova, a power-up which turns up Kirby's Inhale capabilities into overdrive, and gives Kirby the ability to shrink whatever he's eating (in this case, Sectonia's giant laser),and shown later to be able to spit it right back out (see the physicals segment), making basically any kind of projectile you throw at me essentially a free weapon for Kirby to exploit.

Physicals:

Now Kirby is one-hell of a physical powerhouse, and whilst what I will show here are lower end feats, particularly for strength (given how there's one feat I'll be saving until I deem it necessary) they are still majorly impressive for someone of Kirby's size.

Kirby of the Stars: Super Deluxe Chapter 5
Kirby of the Stars: Super Deluxe Chapter 5

Here we see Kirby destroying Pop Star (basically a planet in the shape of a star) with a single, casual punch, putting him at Planet+ striking strength. This in it's own right is very impressive, but this also doubles as a durability feat, as Kirby was still in the middle of the exploding planet, and came out without a scratch.

Loading Video...

(stops at 13:06)

And as for a durability feat, here we have Kirby being right in the middle of a planet wide explosion, and came out without a single scratch and acted more surprised than hurt. This easily puts Kirby at planet+ level durability.

Mewtwo: Imitation of The Original

"I was not born a Pokemon, I was created. And my creators have used and betrayed me, so, I stand alone!"

Next with have Mewtwo, and whilst I'll only be going over the bare essentials in this opener, rest assured, Mewtwo is insanely versatile, and I'll merely be scratching the tip of the iceberg regarding Mewtwo's sheer number of options for basically any situation, and thus will act as the main support to help Kirby's offense. Though before we begin, I'd like to address now that I will be using moves in the future that Mewtwo only learns in-game, so just to prove I'm not just making stuff up, I'll will provide a link to show all of Mewtwo's available moves through natural means (so I won't use TMs/HMs since Mewtwo can only learn them via unnatural means/ with outside help, though I'd recommend scrolling down a bit to go to the Ultra Sun/Moon segment, as the Let's Go games heavily limit the amount of moves available for Gen 1 pandering simplicity).

Telekinesis/Telepathy:

Let's start this segment with TK, Mewtwo's favourite.

Pokemon: The First Movie - Mewtwo Strikes Back
Pokemon: The First Movie - Mewtwo Strikes Back

With a single stare, Mewtwo can cast telekinesis on whoever he chooses, causing pain just by grabbing a guy in midair (also as an FYI, the armor Mewtwo's wearing kept it's powers under control whilst it was learning how to use them, anything it can do with the armor, it can do fine without it). I'll elaborate on this later should I require it, but rest assured, Mewtwo's TK is quite potent.

And on the other side of the spectrum, Mewtwo's TP is just as good, if not better.

Pokemon: The First Movie - Mewtwo Strikes Back
Pokemon: The First Movie - Mewtwo Strikes Back

Mewtwo's shown the ability to completely rewrite memories of a persons past.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Pokemon: The First Movie - Mewtwo Strikes Back

It's been able to wipe out an arena's worth of people's memories of basically the entire day they were there (basically making them forget the entire movie ever happened), showing both it can wipe more than 1 person at once and that Mewtwo can wipe specific memories.

Pokemon: The First Movie - Mewtwo Strikes Back
Pokemon: The First Movie - Mewtwo Strikes Back

It can go even further beyond mind-wiping to flat out mind possession, in this instance, stealing a Nurse Joy for well over a months time.

Pokemon The Movie: Genesect And The Legend Awakened
Pokemon The Movie: Genesect And The Legend Awakened

And just in case Mewtwo has no knowledge of what it needs to mind wipe (although all it really needs to do in this fight is just erase the knowledge of what they were doing/who they were), he can always just peer into it's opponents memories and get exactly what he needs, as well as all they have to offer.

Speed:

In terms of physicals, speed will be the only thing necessary given his role as TK/TP lord (Kirby's got the raw strength and durability on lock-down), but the speed he does have make him incredibly potent.

Pokemon The Movie: Genesect And The Legend Awakened
Pokemon The Movie: Genesect And The Legend Awakened

In this instance, we see Mewtwo being able to not only transform into Y form (it has a super form BTW) and block a laser coming after Ash, but goes so fast that the laser he blocked was moving at a crawl, DCEU Superman style.

In-Game Descriptions
In-Game Descriptions

What makes this truly impressive is that this isn't just some unquantifiable laser, but rather a Techno Blast, Genesect's signature move, which has been described as 'a beam of light', proving that blocking this makes Mewtwo FTL, possibly MFTL depending on interpretation. And this isn't even Mewtwo's best FTL feat.

Best part about this feat is that it basically works for all types of speed, whether it be travel, reaction, whatever, so all in all, a top tier feat.

Darkrai: The Living Nightmare

Can't find any decent quotes :(

Now admittedly Darkrai isn't exactly bringing anything special to the table in terms of stats, being a 1 pointer and all, but what he brings instead is his toolkit that will be used to snag a KO on one of your unsuspecting foes, and provide support to Kirby and Mewtwo. Worth noting that much like with Mewtwo, I will be using moves that Darkrai can learn in-game, so much like with the other Pokemon, here's a list for full transparency.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5
Pokemon: The Rise of Darkrai Chapter 1

Let's start with Darkrai's main source of 'offense', albeit hardly a traditional one, that being Dark Void, these black balls of spooky ghost energy that can be sprayed in a basically every direction at once, and when they do hit the mark, they cause the victim to be lost in a nightmare, falling asleep and being tormented from the inside. Needless to say, if you don't have the proper resistances, this will prove quite fatal.

Pokemon: The Rise of Darkrai
Pokemon: The Rise of Darkrai

Now one particularly interesting move Darkrai can perform is the ability to create this weird, darkness bubble that absorbed attacks from both Dialga and Palkia at the same time (the rulers of all of Space and Time across the universe BTW), making for a unique defensive option that could prove to be useful. This bubble also acts as a sort of stationary version of the typical Dark Void.

Pokemon: The Rise of Darkrai
Pokemon: The Rise of Darkrai

Lastly, Darkrai has his defensive options, as he has the ability to transform into a shadow, giving him fully fledged intangibility, pretty simple, but very useful.

Prep:

Now I'll admit I don't have some Machiavellian scheme which can god-stomp any team within this prep, but there are some things each of my characters can do to prepare for the upcoming assault. Though I will mention that this isn't necessarily the order in which the prep will occur, as it all can happen at basically any point my members desire.

Kirby:

Now admittedly their's not much Kirby needs to do, but all he really needs to do is create his Warp Star, activate Hypernova and wait for the Pokemon, so not much to go over with him.

Mewtwo:

Pokemon Adventures Vol 24, Chapter 284, also as a heads up, the Adventures manga reads like a left to right, unlike most manga
Pokemon Adventures Vol 24, Chapter 284, also as a heads up, the Adventures manga reads like a left to right, unlike most manga

Mewtwo will establish telepathic communication between my team (normally he only does this to people he trusts, however that's a rule specifically for humans, and given both of Mewtwo's teammates either are or look like Pokemon, this shouldn't be a factor), pretty self-explanatory as to why it's useful.

Amnesia in game description
Amnesia in game description

Next, Mewtwo will use Amnesia, which will boost it's defense against non-physical attacks by 4x, giving it a bit of extra sustainability, albeit if Mewtwo really has to survive a blow, he has other methods which I will discuss when relevant.

Psych-Up in game description
Psych-Up in game description

During this period of amping up and seeing Darkrai using Nasty Plot, Mewtwo will use another move called Psych-Up, a move which copies the amps of any opponent, and thus will copy Darkrai's Nasty Plot (see Darkrai's section for details on Nasty Plot, but this will greatly increase Mewtwo's physic prowess 4x over). Also worth noting is that if you ever amp up for whatever reasons and Mewtwo finds out, Psych Up can copy all the benefits you would get.

Pokemon Adventures, Volume 3 Chapter 34
Pokemon Adventures, Volume 3 Chapter 34

And of course to ends things off Mewtwo will not only use this time to go invisible (given Mewtwo is classified as Mega Mewtwo in the rulings, it should be in it's Mewtwo Y form from the start, but it can still transform at a moments notice during prep should this not be the case), ready to TK/TP the first opponent he sees before the battle begins.

Darkrai:

Now out of everyone here Darkrai probably has the most work to do when considering prep, or at least his prep will be the most relevant, so let's get started.

Loading Video...

(stops at 4:50)

First thing Darkrai will do is set up an Illusion around the battlefield (in this instances being able to both create a practically perfect replicate of the player Pokemon's partner, as well as hide the 6 other Pokemon to surprise them) as shown here, pretty self-explanatory. Setting this up not only gives my team inherent invisibility on top of what they naturally can use, but Illusions that you need to prove you have answers for.

Nasty Plot In-Game Description
Nasty Plot In-Game Description

Next move Darkrai will set-up is Nasty Plot, an ability which raises it's attacks power by 4 times, making his hypnosis all the more lethal/efficient. Pretty useful for obvious reasons.

Loading Video...

Next thing Darkrai will do is set up Double Team clones to the highest level this tourney allows. These are basically Naruto's Shadow Clones, being able to act independently and use all the moves Darkrai can. This means that any kind of illusions or void bubbles that Darkrai can set up, can be done in 10 different locations, thus giving them both extra range, and extra versatility in what they can show. (Note that this example of Double Team in use may be an Aipom doing this and not Darkrai, since it's the same move it should work the same way, or even greater given Darkrai's light years ahead of any Aipom).

Finally, not only will the clones start to create their own Illusions, but they will start to set up all of the void bubbles that it used against Dialga and Palkia, whilst the real Darkrai goes intangible and ready to launch a surprise Dark Void, leaving 9 bubbles which the team can fall back to should they feel the need to, absorb dangerous attacks or get the chance to bait the enemy into.

With any time remaining or before the prep starts, the team can also spend time together discussing each other's abilities and formulating a plan of attack, as a neat little bonus benefit.

All of these parts, between all of my members shouldn't take longer than an hour, and whilst I may add things to prep in future (mostly cause knowing me I probably forgot something), this should give you a general idea of what you'll be dealing with.

Initial Thoughts:

Now I won't be countering your posts, nor will I be going to in-depth with any initial thoughts, as that will be saved for my next post and I'm not very familiar DC in general, but based on what I know I will make a quick mini-analysis.

Supes:

Now I have no doubts that Superman hits like a truck and can take a lot of punishment, but based on what I've seen by skimming over a RT and going purely by Rebirth stuff, he honestly doesn't seem that impressive compared to Kirby's casual planet level standard, and would seem to not really have the durability to last many punches from him, and considering that basically all he brings to the table is a big body AFAIK, I can't see him being all that threatening to a puffball who honestly has done everything he's done better.

Manhunter:

Martian Manhunter seems like a case where my selection of perks hurts him super badly, given that he's clearly a powerful telepath first and foremost, and whilst it's clear he's a step above Superman level dudes physically, I don't really know if that is enough, but J'onn seems like the linchpin of your duo, so I'll wait and see for now.

Conclusion/TL;DR:

  1. Kirby can dish out and take planetary level hits pretty easily, with a FTL Warp Star
  2. Mewtwo's FTL and has a wide toolkit of TK, TP and other abilities
  3. Darkrai has a form of offense that could snag a victory on those without the proper defenses, and some solid versatility.
  4. With prep my team will be amped up, super forms activated, bubbles setup and ready to brawl.
  5. You're gonna need a lot of resistances to get through everything my team has to offer.

This should show that I don't think you'll be winning this match easily, but I'd like to see if I can be convinced otherwise.

Loading Video...

Besides, what soulless monster would want to hurt this precious child?

Avatar image for gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps
#11 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2465 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for emperorthanos-
#12 Posted by EmperorThanos- (16041 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
Avatar image for xlr87t3
#13 Posted by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for xlr87t3
#15 Posted by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio

Looks like we have an audience :)

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
#16 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16235 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag me for this. :D

Avatar image for emperorthanos-
#17 Posted by EmperorThanos- (16041 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
Avatar image for xlr87t3
#18 Posted by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for xlr87t3
#19 Edited by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps:

Superman

No Caption Provided

Physical strength and might

This Superman has only been here for 3 years, so his feats in this regard may seem lacking (since in this tourney he was the only one separated into a new character), but the writers didn't lie when they said he was literally New 52 and Post Crisis Supes. He's herald level, and a few low-showings/PIS passed around the internet isn't gonna change that fact.

- Casually plays catch using a small spaceship from earth to the moon with Supergirl. That's island level to country level strength (smallest spaceship weighs 5000 kg) while Superman is using like 1% of his strength and mostly was trying to have a conversation with Supergirl.

No Caption Provided

- Moves and steadies the falling Watchtower (which was the size of a city and easily as massive as a mountain due to being metal). He was trying not to kill everyone on-board, so this is less of a strength feat and more of a balance feat, with Wonder Woman even helping him

https://imgur.com/a/sCCCEyo

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Moves around continent sized pieces of the moon as he was in the later parts of rebuilding it from tiny fragments after it was completely destroyed

No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- A severely holding back Superman wrecks Hal Jordan (who's under an illusion from Hammond) and almost gives Hal an concussion with a single punch, essentially oneshotting him. Not only that, but he overpowers Hal in energy projection as well, a feat for heat vision as well. Clark was afraid he would kill Hal with what amounted to a love tap, that's how much stronger and more powerful he is to Hal.

Full fight: https://imgur.com/a/Q0BTOX5

^^^To give you an idea of how powerful that feat is, an average Green Lantern (including rookies like Jessica Cruz) can straight up tank moon busting attacks with no shield. Their base durability is above that level.

No Caption Provided

Hal Jordan himself has moon level durability even in early Post Crisis (which is 100% canon to DC Rebirth and by tourney rules still applies to Green Lanterns), and he has gotten far more powerful in New 52 and Rebirth

No Caption Provided

Superman punching far harder than moon-busting (enough to oneshot Hal & snap him out of Hammond's control) is at least small planet level, and this was a holding-back Superman. All out blood lusted he would hit FAR harder.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Another thing is scaling. We know for a fact that Martian Manhunter is physically weaker than Draxamites/Kryptonians in general, even if slightly (unless he goes Fernus which he will here since it's morals off), and that is one of the most consistent things about his character.

Proof: Holding back Superman

Superman is the most powerful being on earth, he at least scales to MMH who destroyed the moon along with help from Batman's bombs.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Superman physically overpowered several dozens Timeless Robots simultaneously.

No Caption Provided

They are strong enough to mow through constructs like wet tissue.

https://i.postimg.cc/x83TQxjs/image.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/dQ20G1R8/image.jpg

For reference on how strong such constructs are, in Green Lanterns #33, a rookie Jessica Cruz lifted ⅛ the mass of a planet (1.5e23 kg) while only using 38% ring power and while being in the crushing gravity of a supernova ready to explode,

No Caption Provided

and in “GLs #25” she went toe to toe with a weakened corporeal Volthoom who already defeated a Guardian named Rami (Guardians are each low-skyfather level on their own) and effortlessly destroys planets like nothing:

http://imgur.com/Cs82sbg

http://imgur.com/mVlnyOH

Those Timeless Drones were punching with a force harder than the weight of 2 moons. Clearly, Superman is more powerful than the rest of the league combined. He's made to look a whole tier above them, in fact.

Durability

As usual, Superman's greatest stat is his durability, and it's every bit as good as Kirby's own except elasticity.

- Superman tanked attacks from Molly the Keeper who was channeling every power (the combined powers of the speed force, magic, light and gods) through the time at once and moving the entire timeline of the Solar System and Earth at once.

Superman vs Molly:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oTNbkHqG...600/006_004.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-r78qWMQU...600/006_005.jpg

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CakK1SNQ...600/006_010.jpg

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MYIdqzUI...600/006_012.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ntckN1g7...600/006_013.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7Ol5zsJL...600/006_015.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ceU6imwm...600/006_017.jpg

That's AT LEAST planet level durability, and Batman wearing Luthor's warsuit & Jane Jones (who's heavily implied to be a martian) were only able to tank the shockwaves of the initial AoE energy while mostly covered behind Superman's back

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Tanks a magical firebreath from Etrigan, a demon who's main powers (from Post Crisis to Prime Earth onward) is to literally destroy souls with his flames.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Tanks a powerful magical blast from Emerald Empress

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/7/72524/5802130-tanks+emerald+eye+blasts+1.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/7/72524/5802132-tanks+emerald+eye+blasts+3.jpg

Emerald Empress is able to match two Green Lanterns, who I've shown are at least moon+ level, and magic weakens superman so the durability feat is even more impressive.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Survives a beat down from the "Superman Revenge Squad" (Mongul, Hank Henshaw, Zod, Eradicator, Metallo, and Blanque), and all except Metallo and Blanque is as physically strong or even stronger than Superman. On top of that, Metallo's Kryptonite was weakening Superman, so the latter was tanking this onslaught in a heavily weakened state. While blind.

https://tinyurl.com/y7dcgc9s

https://tinyurl.com/y8v38lj7

He quickly heals from that, with no visible injuries the very next issue (he simply got up when the Superman family came to the rescue)

https://tinyurl.com/ycddqqcr

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

- Tanks a planet-busting detonation at ground zero entirely unscathed. He was in mid-sentence and was trying to help save the people on the planet (he wasn't going anywhere so he tanked the initial planet-bust), and then the remains of the planet completely exploded after he flew away

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/sp/5526dbfec4996e2dd6427bd1851b72f2/Superman_2016-_041-016.jpg

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/sp/0a2a3a8da58c2d64f1379851471709e7/Superman_2016-_041-017.jpg

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/sp/faf4f17217e9bdecca5a72e671e05264/Superman_2016-_041-018.jpg

https://s7d8.turboimg.net/sp/4a01bd29bc5efb961459ba7b68f3b197/Superman_2016-_041-019.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Speed & Perceptions

Ok, as I've said before, Superman is still a herald tier in durability and physical power. But his speed and perceptions go well beyond that.

Exhibit A:

Also a very ridiculous speed feat for Flash and Superman both. This is from Flash 49.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Flashes are running around the world so fast they were tearing the very fabric of the multiverse apart with the energy generated. Steve Trevor has to slow down video feed by a trillionth just to even PERCEIVE the Flashes who were still accelerating the very moment after that panel. 1 trillionth of a second is literally a picosecond. Superman sees them and accelerates to almost their level of speed for a moment. No one else could see them.

That's Picosecond reaction and perception speed, aka MFTL.

Exhibit B:

Flies his son on a field trip to an alien planet in another solar system, in like 10 minutes tops

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5Gallery image 6Gallery image 7

Once again, that's MFTL speed

Exhibit C:

Superman crosses 746 million miles in the span of a few seconds to a Dominator armada and blitzes them with that speed.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Once again, MFTL speed

Exhitit D:

The Moon Rebuilding feat.

No Caption Provided

When Martian Manhunter (who is almost as strong as Superman) and Batman destroyed the moon, it was nothing but the billions and trillions of scattered moon fragments floating around in space. The moon was almost completely disappeared. How was it fixed? Superman uses his bare hands, lol

Here:

https://imgur.com/a/EVcHB5j

And here:

https://imgur.com/a/MU0Abby

https://imgur.com/a/JiUZbZ7

https://imgur.com/a/C4DvJYV

Superman, in the span of a casual conversation (which reading the scans took roughly a minute or less) fly around and identified, collected, and fuse together each and every piece of the moon and put them together perfectly. To move that distance and collect that many moon pieces in such a short amount of time is easily MMFTL+ operational speed and travel speed.

Other Powers

Heat Vision

His heat vision is mainly for saving people and utility, like pin-pointing tiny devices on the skin of animals and people without killing them

No Caption Provided

or destroying fodder space-ships.

No Caption Provided

But when Superman goes all out, he can release a pseudo-Kamehameha attack that can match and hurt Molly the Keeper (who is at least planet level after absorbing the combined power of all the light energy of all the lantern corps in the universe)

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Strength-wise, he completely overpowered Hal Jordan's ring in energy projection.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

This is canonically the exact same Hal Jordan that accidentally destroyed a planet and makes blasts as hot as the sun.

In fact, Green Lantern Hal Jordan casually destroyed two Sun Eaters, huge moon-sized living machines that feed off all energy and literally eat stars (as their name suggests). His energy projection is easily star level in order to overload their absorption and kill them.

https://i.postimg.cc/fRm92XRw/10.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/FKvJ2RY0/11.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/Xvgy3b5m/12.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/50NQ2Rq0/13.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/PJCLmv7n/14.jpg

Yes, Hal Jordan is ridiculously far above planet busting tier, to the point where when Kyle Rayner got Hal's ring, Hal's residual power leaking through was going to destroy the entire HQ (which is the planet Mogo).

No Caption Provided

This is the level of power that Superman matches and overpowers with his heat vision. Absolutely insane, and that's still not as good as matching Molly the Keeper who had ALL Lantern energy and ALL magic and ALL Speedforce energy.

Moving on

Superhearing

He can hear pretty much everything from distances exceeding that f the entire earth.

Here he hears Supergirl while shes on the moon and he's on earth. Distance is meaningless

No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hears heartbeats in order to fight while blind. Zod unfortunately caught on and FUS-RO-DAH'd right in his ear (please tell me you got that reference)

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hears an entire city and pinpoints a cell phone ring tone

No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can hear seismic tremors, which humans need advanced technology to detect

No Caption Provided

Superman will hear you team's every twitch, every breath, every heartbeat. Hiding is impossible

X-Ray Vision

He can see through almost anything. from almost anywhere

Sees through a guy's bag

No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sees through a building on an island while he's still flying high in the sky

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can see through invisibility

No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can see the inner workings of a highly advanced machine. From the circuits to the impulses.

https://tinyurl.com/y9bvj2st

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can see past Venus while he's on earth

No Caption Provided

Again, hiding is impossible for your team

Martian Manhunter

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

Physical strength and might

Pulls ⅓ earth's mass, along with Superman and Wonder Woman

No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Restrains 3 Herald tiers, one (Orion) being Superman level in strength, simultaneously, along with his brother. Also a durability feat.

*Note: This does not make regular non-Fernus Martian Manhunter stronger than Superman, but he is close. My team is bloodlusted, so Fernus comes out, who is in basic terms Martian Manhunter's version of Sentry's Void (someone else who is also allowed in this tourney).

No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Fernus) Physically fodderizes Superman and Wonder Woman effortlessly, to the point where they are crushed and overpowered in one hand like they're toys. Strength-wise, heralds are insects to him

No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As Fernus, completely slaughters hundreds of White Martians in the phantom zone

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2650230-1.png

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2650231-2.png

Durability/Regeneration

Shrugs off attacks from the JLA (Superman, Big Barda, and Wonder Woman and Orion) he was more upset than actually hurt. This was right before J'onn restrained them in the scan I've shown above in the strength section

No Caption Provided

For reference, Pre-52 Superman is a moonbuster (hmm, sounds familiar?)

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Completely regenerates from drops of green blood

No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Completely regenerates from an arm

https://imgur.com/a/St5zy

Speed

He speedblitzes and oneshots several White Martians who were beating the crap out of Kyle Rayner and Plasticman.

No Caption Provided

For reference, White Martians are able to blitz Superman, who is stated on multiple occasions to have nanosecond reaction time and perception speed.

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2654624-1.png

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2654628-2.png

A single Martian is able to blitz and ragdoll Orion, Big Barda, Steel, and Kyle Rayner, almost oneshotting them. All except Steel are at least moon-busting level to planet-busting herald tiers,

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2654659-3.png

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2654661-4.png

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2654662-5.png

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moves faster than thought, time appears frozen.

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2634400-1.png

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2634401-2.png

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Has an entire conversation in 1/6th of a sentence

No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fighting evenly with Flash at superspeed. https://m.imgur.com/a/FfbSr

Both Barry and Wally are able to reach and surpass the speed of light

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111139360/5129005-superman+reacts+to+flash+at+fullspeed.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flew from Mars to the Sun in the span of a few seconds (dozens of times FTL)

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZoiPodtHJr8/VtQD4ApvgpI/AAAAAAAAEa4/tIjK271W124/s1600-Ic42/RCO010.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dAlmZqlry-I/VtQD4VE0t6I/AAAAAAAAEa4/Hu8zeVGzZdc/s1600-Ic42/RCO011.jpg

Invisibility & Intangibility/Phasing

Two of his most basic and well known powers is his ability to turn Invisible and Intangible

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can cloak 5 other people besides himself and masks their temperatures with heavy strain (he normally is able to do 3 at max, so a single person is easy)

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/nuZoJvsgN32op3jPQACv4e7QpzP2RYzLD5z26RbP5BvL8aU6GFRkPXdHWh5Bklo89hdPgNETKmzk=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kLrfPqsM5-mNziNaGeGrOOmSoixHeZsKB78DzsLMXNKHRiCQVMTZ4lXQS9zjbSuxYFPxIuCjkCc=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/5zGBoOujZmVuQe-CmFsL_WrjnuTQ0z5fx21eW7u91ZX3mfQ4Lx0_LHORj9w6CofGw40qxfvaBfL_=s1600

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He says it himself. An attack's power is meaningless if it can't even touch its target

No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can phase through hearts to kill people

No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bypasses shields that completely no-sold Green Lantern and Superman’s attacks

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Turns both invisible and intangible to escape Green Lantern's cage

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2645635-1.png

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2645630-2.png

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can disrupt technology by phasing through it

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2648440-1.png

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phases through all of a white martian’s attacks

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2647120-1.png

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Curbstomps Superman by phasing him into a table

No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While Invisible, reacts to a not-holding back Flash and oneshots him

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2650221-5.png

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beats the crap out of Firestorm while Invisible

https://origin-static.comicvine.gamespot.com/api/image/original/2650207-2.png

https://origin-static.comicvine.gamespot.com/api/image/original/2650208-3.png

Shapeshifting

Stabs Etrigan by making his arm as small as a pinpoint at its end (Etrigan is stronger than Wonder Woman and close to Superman in physicals)

No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Straight up overpowers Etrigan with his shapeshifting, up until the demon used his hellfire which can damage souls and it also psychologically damaged J'onn (he doesn't have that problem anymore as I'll show in the section below)

No Caption Provided

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shrinks to the size of a blood cell

https://origin-static.comicvine.gamespot.com/api/image/original/2650619-1.png

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2650620-2.png

https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2650621-3.png

Martian Vision

Matches Pre-52 Superman's heat vision (a guy who can engulf the entire earth with his heat-vision, it's power is far above any scientific scale and unquantifiable)

No Caption Provided

Able to hit intangible beings (Ray Terrill is able to absorb and manipulate light, and he was in his intangible light form when MMH hit him). Evidently, Martian Vision can damage on a atomic level.

No Caption Provided

A random White Martian is able to oneshot Wonder Woman with MV.

No Caption Provided

Pre-52 Wonder Woman can no-sold a nuke to the face

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Destroys a small mountain to store statues in it

No Caption Provided

He also has X-Ray vision like Superman

https://i.imgur.com/jcrkgyJ.png

The Prep:

The heroes have intel on your team. They know what they're up against. Superman takes the high ground, Martian Manhunter will cover the surface. Superman will scour the earth of any signs of foreign life. Searching for any sound, any movement, any heartbeat that isn't his and MMH's, in conjunction with his Super Sight that can scan an entire planet from light years away. MMH's telepathy is more than strong enough to prevent any illusions from affecting himself or Superman's mind, and the illusion doesn't prevent sound IIRC. So the nanosecond that your team appear on the planet is the very nanosecond that Superman will sense your team's location, and the very next nanosecond that Superman (and Martian Manhunter via mindlinking info) will appear at your team's location.

The third nanosecond is where my team will "fight" your team. It's more like a slaughter to be honest.

For one, the Pokedex isn't reliable, Technoblast can be fire, water, ice, or even electricty. Unless it has some main feature of lightspeed such as refraction I don't think this can be used to prove Mewtwo is faster than light. Because of that, she's still a statue compared to anyone on my team. Since you didn't provide durability feats for Mewtwo (who is a statue to Superman), she gets her head ripped off by moon+ level physical strength.

Then Superman moves on to Darkrai who is also a statue. Unless you can prove otherwise, Darkrai doesn't start out Intangible unless he actually sees the opponent, he has to activate it. So Darkrai gets oneshotted as well, since he has zero physical durability feats to survive a punch from Superman. And Martian Manhunter can hurt intangible beings made of literal light, so DARKrai should still be effected by his attacks.

Then we move on to Kirby. The fact is that Kirby doesn't have FTL reaction time. When he is on the Warp Star, he only reacts to things traveling as fast or almost as fast as him, so Law of Relativity applies there. When he's on the ground, he's like massively hypersonic at best but not even close to sub-relativistic. Please prove me wrong. But for now, he's another statue and gets his brain phased out of his head by Martian Manhunter. Kirby has regenerated from being split in half, or flattened, but he has never withstood having his brain removed from his body.

The entire slaughter lasts a total of three nanoseconds. This "fight" was over when it begun.

Avatar image for invadedtbd
#20 Posted by InvadedTBD (1346 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP and T4V

Online
Avatar image for xlr87t3
#21 Posted by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps
#22 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2465 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: Sweet, I'll try and get to this soon, but I might take a bit.

Avatar image for gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps
#23 Edited by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2465 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: Is it possible for you to add sources for all your scans? Wanna check for context and the like.

Avatar image for xlr87t3
#24 Posted by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps: I forgot to explain that green and white martians are the exact same species, just different races. They all have the exact same powers, with few exceptions. Martian Manhunter is simply better than other Martians, a "Peak Martian" if you will

No Caption Provided

Avatar image for xlr87t3
#25 Posted by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for xlr87t3
#26 Posted by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for empressofdread
#27 Posted by EmpressOfDread (12367 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: Thanks. Tag me after every post, if I did not say it before.

Avatar image for supermanthor
#28 Posted by Supermanthor (16221 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: you could used post crisis Superman or new 52

Just saying

Avatar image for xlr87t3
#29 Edited by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio

@supermanthor said:

@xlr87t3: you could used post crisis Superman or new 52

Just saying

But I didn't. Now why are you telling me this?

Technically, Rebirth is both of those things

Avatar image for supermanthor
#30 Posted by Supermanthor (16221 posts) - - Show Bio

Just as I expected

Avatar image for xlr87t3
#31 Posted by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps
#32 Edited by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2465 posts) - - Show Bio

Counter Post: Nintendo and DC All-Stars

No Caption Provided

Superman:

This Superman has only been here for 3 years, so his feats in this regard may seem lacking (since in this tourney he was the only one separated into a new character), but the writers didn't lie when they said he was literally New 52 and Post Crisis Supes. He's herald level, and a few low-showings/PIS passed around the internet isn't gonna change that fact.

Uhhhh, that's not how this works. Using Rebirth version and having the PC and N52 versions as separate characters makes it very clear that you can only use Rebirth feats, otherwise it would've specified you were allowed to use N52/PC feats. If you were allowed all of those versions at once, why would they have them separate at all when you can just say "lol syke, actually they're all the same, so it doesn't matter"? Just doesn't make any sense to me beyond you trying to sneak a character in that's worth less than he should be. Now as someone who doesn't know the difference between what's PC, N52 and Rebirth, I have no idea what feats are legit and what aren't, so for the sake of argument, I will be covering mostly everything, but rest assured that I'm skeptical about literally everything you post that looks even remotely old.

Strength:

Casually plays catch using a small spaceship from earth to the moon with Supergirl. That's island level to country level strength (smallest spaceship weighs 5000 kg) while Superman is using like 1% of his strength and mostly was trying to have a conversation with Supergirl. Moves and steadies the falling Watchtower (which was the size of a city and easily as massive as a mountain due to being metal). He was trying not to kill everyone on-board, so this is less of a strength feat and more of a balance feat, with Wonder Woman even helping him. Moves around continent sized pieces of the moon as he was in the later parts of rebuilding it from tiny fragments after it was completely destroyed.

Gonna bunch all of these together for a simple yet obvious reason, as these are lifting feats, their's not much reason for them to be relevant mid-fight.

A severely holding back Superman wrecks Hal Jordan (who's under an illusion from Hammond) and almost gives Hal an concussion with a single punch, essentially oneshotting him. Not only that, but he overpowers Hal in energy projection as well, a feat for heat vision as well. Clark was afraid he would kill Hal with what amounted to a love tap, that's how much stronger and more powerful he is to Hal. To give you an idea of how powerful that feat is, an average Green Lantern (including rookies like Jessica Cruz) can straight up tank moon busting attacks with no shield. Their base durability is above that level. Hal Jordan himself has moon level durability even in early Post Crisis (which is 100% canon to DC Rebirth and by tourney rules still applies to Green Lanterns), and he has gotten far more powerful in New 52 and Rebirth. Superman punching far harder than moon-busting (enough to oneshot Hal & snap him out of Hammond's control) is at least small planet level, and this was a holding-back Superman. All out blood lusted he would hit FAR harder.

Fortunately for me, Moon level attacks are total fodder for Kirby, given his planetary+ low-end strength and durability, so this should be an issue for my puffball. Even if Superman was blood-lusted, seems like the best he'd do is planet level hits, which won't be enough to put Kirby down for good.

Superman is the most powerful being on earth, he at least scales to MMH who destroyed the moon along with help from Batman's bombs.

Again, moon level isn't enough by Kirby's standards. And as far as scaling goes, I won't go into details about it for now, but whilst Superman scales to moon level people, Kirby scales above planet level opponents twice over, so either way, not that impressive.

For reference on how strong such constructs are, in Green Lanterns #33, a rookie Jessica Cruz lifted ⅛ the mass of a planet (1.5e23 kg) while only using 38% ring power and while being in the crushing gravity of a supernova ready to explode,

Wouldn't that be more of a strength feat, rather than a durability feat, and thus isn't something to really judge how strong these constructs really are?

Those Timeless Drones were punching with a force harder than the weight of 2 moons. Clearly, Superman is more powerful than the rest of the league combined. He's made to look a whole tier above them, in fact.

Even 2 moons wouldn't be enough to threaten Kirby, and striking strength doesn't really translate to durability, so either way, this is nothing Kirby can't replicate.

Durability:

Superman tanked attacks from Molly the Keeper who was channeling every power (the combined powers of the speed force, magic, light and gods) through the time at once and moving the entire timeline of the Solar System and Earth at once. That's AT LEAST planet level durability, and Batman wearing Luthor's warsuit & Jane Jones (who's heavily implied to be a martian) were only able to tank the shockwaves of the initial AoE energy while mostly covered behind Superman's back.

tbh, I'm not really sure how to even quantify this, moving a timeline isn't exactly something you can put a number on, but assuming what you claim it to be and say it's planetary, it's not enough to say Kirby couldn't replicate this, given how his planet level explosion feats are just as good, and one feat which I may bring up later is even better.

- Tanks a magical firebreath from Etrigan, a demon who's main powers (from Post Crisis to Prime Earth onward) is to literally destroy souls with his flames.

Nice soul drain resistance, but it's kinda useless on my team given how none of them use soul draining.

- Tanks a powerful magical blast from Emerald Empress Emerald Empress is able to match two Green Lanterns, who I've shown are at least moon+ level, and magic weakens superman so the durability feat is even more impressive.

I'll say it again, not impressive by Kirby's standard, and the weakness to magic shouldn't really cover that up.

Survives a beat down from the "Superman Revenge Squad" (Mongul, Hank Henshaw, Zod, Eradicator, Metallo, and Blanque), and all except Metallo and Blanque is as physically strong or even stronger than Superman. On top of that, Metallo's Kryptonite was weakening Superman, so the latter was tanking this onslaught in a heavily weakened state. While blind.

So he was basically taking multiple moon++ attacks in a row, if I'm getting this right? If so, nothing Kirby can't overtax, has he alone is Planet+ casually, as shown.

- Tanks a planet-busting detonation at ground zero entirely unscathed. He was in mid-sentence and was trying to help save the people on the planet (he wasn't going anywhere so he tanked the initial planet-bust), and then the remains of the planet completely exploded after he flew away

As shown, Kirby's replicated a remarkably similar feat. Also the scans really do seem like this is just a speed feat of outrunning a planet sized explosion, Supes is clearly flying fast than the explosion (notified by the explosion ring thing, if he truly tanked the explosion, he'd still be right in the middle of the explosion, not miles and miles away from the planet), which whilst is an impressive feat in it's own right, Kirby's travel between galaxies still outclass this for fairly clear reasons.

Speed:

Flashes are running around the world so fast they were tearing the very fabric of the multiverse apart with the energy generated. Steve Trevor has to slow down video feed by a trillionth just to even PERCEIVE the Flashes who were still accelerating the very moment after that panel. 1 trillionth of a second is literally a picosecond. Superman sees them and accelerates to almost their level of speed for a moment. No one else could see them. That's Picosecond reaction and perception speed, aka MFTL.

This is hardly something Superman can keep up consistently, so saying he'll be going at these speeds throughout the whole fight seems a bit off. And even if he does do this, it'd honestly do him more harm than good, given how he's exhausted by the end and would leave him as free pickings for Kirby soon after.

Flies his son on a field trip to an alien planet in another solar system, in like 10 minutes tops Once again, that's MFTL speed.

Kirby's Warp star has done as well, but better given the larger distance and less time, it's still superior than this.

Superman crosses 746 million miles in the span of a few seconds to a Dominator armada and blitzes them with that speed. Once again, MFTL speed

Again, the Warp Star's done better.

No Caption Provided

Keep in mind that the distance the average galaxy is about 13 billion light years, and the distance between earth and Saturn is about 1.2 billion, waaay more than what Supes does here, and it traveled roughly that distance in a matter of seconds, about the same time Superman took, so The Warp Star simply does better.

When Martian Manhunter (who is almost as strong as Superman) and Batman destroyed the moon, it was nothing but the billions and trillions of scattered moon fragments floating around in space. The moon was almost completely disappeared. How was it fixed? Superman uses his bare hands, lol. Superman, in the span of a casual conversation (which reading the scans took roughly a minute or less) fly around and identified, collected, and fuse together each and every piece of the moon and put them together perfectly. To move that distance and collect that many moon pieces in such a short amount of time is easily MMFTL+ operational speed and travel speed.

eh, MMFTl I'd doubt, as whilst I'll admit I don't have any hard numbers to prove it with, considering the small size of the moon compared to planets, and the relatively shorter distance Supes had to cover accordingly, I struggle to see it as this fast, definitely FTL for sure, but MMFTL+? I can't see it without some dumb calc-esque shenanigans going on. Also as a combat speed feat this isn't impressive at all, he's not reacting to anything, so gauging his fight speeds based on this seems nigh-impossible.

Misc:

His heat vision is mainly for saving people and utility, like pin-pointing tiny devices on the skin of animals and people without killing them. or destroying fodder space-ships.

Neither of which are important or relevant to the levels of my characters.

But when Superman goes all out, he can release a pseudo-Kamehameha attack that can match and hurt Molly the Keeper (who is at least planet level after absorbing the combined power of all the light energy of all the lantern corps in the universe)

Cool, Kirby's no-sold a planet sized explosion, so nothing he can't take with ease (or just absorb and spit right back tbh).

Strength-wise, he completely overpowered Hal Jordan's ring in energy projection. This is canonically the exact same Hal Jordan that accidentally destroyed a planet and makes blasts as hot as the sun. In fact, Green Lantern Hal Jordan casually destroyed two Sun Eaters, huge moon-sized living machines that feed off all energy and literally eat stars (as their name suggests). His energy projection is easily star level in order to overload their absorption and kill them. Yes, Hal Jordan is ridiculously far above planet busting tier, to the point where when Kyle Rayner got Hal's ring, Hal's residual power leaking through was going to destroy the entire HQ (which is the planet Mogo). This is the level of power that Superman matches and overpowers with his heat vision. Absolutely insane, and that's still not as good as matching Molly the Keeper who had ALL Lantern energy and ALL magic and ALL Speedforce energy.

Not good enough for Kirby I'm afraid.

Loading Video...

Whilst he was knocked unconscious for a bit, Kirby was stuck in a blast that's easily star level+, and was completely fine soon after, smiling like a little baby. A little heat like that isn't gonna kill Kirby at all.

Also to note on the second half the that question, wouldn't that just make Hal casual moon level and not sun level? Just because they can eat suns doesn't necessarily mean they have sun level durability, right? I suppose you means energy durability, but that seems incredibly iffy, given the nature of how they seem to absorb the sun's power, less so much tank it like you seem to imply, as far as I can tell.

Here he hears Supergirl while shes on the moon and he's on earth. Distance is meaningless He can see through almost anything. from almost anywhere

Can't see either of these being very relevant in this fight, so no issues here.

Manhunter:

Physicals:

Pulls ⅓ earth's mass, along with Superman and Wonder Woman

Guess at this point I should probably put some lifting feats for Kirby as a point of comparison huh?

Loading Video...

Here Kirby throws a monster and the frying pan it was on around the entire gosh darn sun, and have it loop around it, and have it return exactly where he threw it from. A pretty insane feat that shows that Kirby should be able to at the very, very least hold his own in terms of lifting strength (even if striking strength is what really matters, which Kirby seems to dwarf both of your members in, even without his best feat, which I've yet to reveal).

Restrains 3 Herald tiers, one (Orion) being Superman level in strength, simultaneously, along with his brother. Also a durability feat.

3 Moon-planet level opponents shouldn't be anything Kirby can't replicate.

As Fernus, completely slaughters hundreds of White Martians in the phantom zone

Feats for White Martians to suggest this is impressive?

Shrugs off attacks from the JLA (Superman, Big Barda, and Wonder Woman and Orion) he was more upset than actually hurt. This was right before J'onn restrained them in the scan I've shown above in the strength section For reference, Pre-52 Superman is a moonbuster (hmm, sounds familiar?)

Gonna turn into a parrot, but moon busting isn't impressive by Kirby's standard, no matter how casual.

Completely regenerates from drops of green blood. Completely regenerates from an arm.

Interesting, didn't know that Manhunter had a healing factor tbh, which whilst it will be annoying no doubt, isn't something my members can't work around, mainly with Mewtwo and Darkrai's non-physical attack which you've yet to show any resistance to, as well as other abilities Kirby has which I've yet to show.

He speedblitzes and one-shots several White Martians who were beating the crap out of Kyle Rayner and Plasticman. For reference, White Martians are able to blitz Superman, who is stated on multiple occasions to have nanosecond reaction time and perception speed.

AFAIK, nanosecond timing is only roughly around light speed, so this shouldn't be an issue.

A single Martian is able to blitz and ragdoll Orion, Big Barda, Steel, and Kyle Rayner, almost oneshotting them. All except Steel are at least moon-busting level to planet-busting herald tiers,

Strength doesn't equal to speed, so still pretty unimpressive compared to Kirby.

Moves faster than thought, time appears frozen.

Mewtwo's done a very similar feat, as I've shown, except instead of vague, unquantifiable 'faster than thought' (whatever that means) movement, he's statued full on light speed lasers. And keep in mind that Kirby's a goos bit faster than Mewtwo.

Has an entire conversation in 1/6th of a sentence

Not sure how this translate into a fight tbh, so not clear on how to judge this.

Fighting evenly with Flash at superspeed. Both Barry and Wally are able to reach and surpass the speed of light.

Just FTL speeds ain't enough, as I've said like 5 times already.

Flew from Mars to the Sun in the span of a few seconds (dozens of times FTL)

See the above statement.

Abilities:

Can cloak 5 other people besides himself and masks their temperatures with heavy strain (he normally is able to do 3 at max, so a single person is easy)

Fortunately both Kirby and Mewtwo have outs to invisibility.

Web of Spiderman (2009) #9
Web of Spiderman (2009) #9

For Kirby's side of the equation, this is where something I forgot to mention in my opener, his Spider Sense perk, will come in handy, which has helped Peter Parker react to invisible attacks before, so with that, plus Kirby's superior speeds, it shouldn't take long to find you and fight back accordingly.

Pokemon Adventures Chapter 285
Pokemon Adventures Chapter 285

And as for Mewtwo, is ability to flat out sense where other people are should be more than enough to say Mewtwo will see you even if you're invisible (and Mewtwo will be scanning from before the fight starts thanks to prep, ready to find and TK/TP your duo).

Can phase through hearts to kill people

Okay, phasing, certainly a massive pain in the butt, but nothing my team can't overcome.

For starters, based on all of the scans you provided (not bothering to go over all of them as I'd just be repeating myself), it doesn't seem like this gives TK/TP resistance, so Mewtwo should be able to just TK/TP Manhunter regardless if he uses phasing. But in terms of actually bypassing phasing, Kirby has 2 options to deal with this.

Kirby: Squeak Squad
Kirby: Squeak Squad

First thing Kirby can do is simply devour manhunter, as given his ability to eat beings like ghosts should grant him the ability to eat intangibles.

Kirby: Right Back at Ya Finale: Fright To The Finish
Kirby: Right Back at Ya Finale: Fright To The Finish

The other thing Kirby can do is summon his Star Rod (something he can do during prep if he feels like it, also worth noting that he doesn't need Tiff's help to summon the Warp Star, given their's some context to the state Kirby was in thanks to Nightmare), by absorbing a Warp Star, which happens to be his ultimate weapon, and should logically be stronger than any kid of physical attack he can muster. Which grants him the ability to defeat Nightmare, a super powerful ghost immune to most normal attacks, giving Kirby another potential out to Intangibility.

Stabs Etrigan by making his arm as small as a pinpoint at its end (Etrigan is stronger than Wonder Woman and close to Superman in physicals)

Don't think shapeshifting's going to be all that useful, given how it seems (at least to me) that Manhunter would prefer to just stick with regular punches, so not to worried about this.

Matches Pre-52 Superman's heat vision (a guy who can engulf the entire earth with his heat-vision, it's power is far above any scientific scale and unquantifiable)

Not enough to put Kirby down, as shown earlier.

Able to hit intangible beings (Ray Terrill is able to absorb and manipulate light, and he was in his intangible light form when MMH hit him).

Certainly useful on Darkrai I'll admit, but nothing that'l matter on the 2 that'll truly be important.

Evidently, Martian Vision can damage on a atomic level.

Just because it hurts intangibles doesn't necessarily mean it attacks things on a molecular level, or at least that scan didn't do anything to prove that it did beyond the intangibility hurting.

A random White Martian is able to oneshot Wonder Woman with MV. Pre-52 Wonder Woman can no-sold a nuke to the face. Destroys a small mountain to store statues in it

Neither of those are that impressive, like, at all, Kirby could full on no-sell that, and I get regarding the former it's a White Martian and how you mentioned Manhunter is a 'peak Martian', but even 3x of that won't even phase the puffball.

Prep/Counters:

For one, the Pokedex isn't reliable,

That wasn't from the Pokedex, moves themselves don't have entries, what I showed you were in-game descriptions separate from the Pokedex, so this comment is pretty misinformed. Also why isn't the Pokedex reliable, pray tell?

Techno-blast can be fire, water, ice, or even electricty. Unless it has some main feature of lightspeed such as refraction I don't think this can be used to prove Mewtwo is faster than light.

Unfortunately for you, that's not how Techno Blast works. The Drive's don't change the laser being fired in terms of it being made of light, it simply adds the element on top of the laser, lesso changing the element. For a weirder comparison, it's like adding Ketchup to a Hot Dog, the former doesn't completely change the ladder into a different food, just adds some extra flavour. Genesect's Drives work the same way.

Pokemon: Genesect and The Legend Awakened
Pokemon: Genesect and The Legend Awakened

This can be seen in the very way Genesect uses the Drive's, seen above, using the drive's moreso as a power source/enhancements for Techno Blast, rather than the Blast coming from the Drive themselves (they can use Techno Blast just fine without them, and it's not like they have any proof of changing power/speeds).

Since you didn't provide durability feats for Mewtwo (who is a statue to Superman), she gets her head ripped off by moon+ level physical strength.

A fair assessment, one which I won't deny, but Mewtwo's still FTL by my books and your 'debunk' didn't change that, so it should be fine dodging all the same. And something worth noting is that Mewtwo has an out to it's poor defenses:

In-Game Description.
In-Game Description.

And that's Guard Swap, which is a move Mewtwo can learn, which swaps the durability with it's opponents, turning your character into someone as fragile as Mewtwo, and giving Mewtwo your defenses alongside his regular tricks remaining intact. Naturally this should work wonders on Superman, and gives Mewtwo all of the durability of Man of Steel would normally have, whilst leaving Clark at only City level+ durability, more than enough for Kirby to make him explode with a single punch.

Then Superman moves on to Darkrai who is also a statue. Unless you can prove otherwise, Darkrai doesn't start out Intangible unless he actually sees the opponent, he has to activate it.

When did people have to actually see Darkrai to go intangible? That's never been a rule AFAIK, and he'll be intangible during prep thanks to the prep time, so I don't see your point.

Then we move on to Kirby. The fact is that Kirby doesn't have FTL reaction time. When he is on the Warp Star, he only reacts to things traveling as fast or almost as fast as him, so Law of Relativity applies there.

Okay, so beyond the fact that I'm dumb AF and have no idea what the heck Law of Relativity even is, and google just made things more confusing (the best I have is "Special Relativity is the theory that no matter what constant speed you’re travelling all the laws of physics are the same.", which honestly I don't know how it's relevant to the Warp Star, so feel free to inform me), but the thing is that Kirby has been shown to manually control the warp star and control how it moves (referring back to Air Ride again, he clearly reacts to other racers and controls the Star itself), so it's not like he hasn't reacted to other things going at FTL speeds, as those other racers must have been going at similar speeds to the Warp Star, so he'd need to react to those speed accordingly, as well as beat people like Nightmare, who have reacted to, outpaced and even tagged the Warp Star, so whichever way you slice it, Kirby has still reacted to FTL dudes.

When he's on the ground, he's like massively hypersonic at best but not even close to sub-relativistic. Please prove me wrong. But for now, he's another statue and gets his brain phased out of his head by Martian Manhunter.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Kirby: Return to Dreamland & Super Star Ultra respectively

Well, on the ground Kirby's outran black holes on multiple different occasions (you can even see light being absorbed into the black hole in both instances, showing that they are legit), so he's very clearly FTL in ground speed. INB4 'muh game mechanics'.

Initial Conclusion/Concerns I Have:

Whilst I do think I can win this, there are some problems I would very much like too address.

I. Consistency.

Simply put, and I know that this is mainly a comic book problem, nor that I'm some all-consumer of all of things comic books, but what you showed seemed like the highest of high-end feats, blatantly ignoring all the equally consistent mid-low end stuff in order to highball these characters to hell and back. Maybe I'm just not knowledgeable for thinking this, but ignoring every single lower-end feat just because they aren't on the same level as the ones you showed doesn't seem right, especially the ones with no context attached to them (cause I know they do exist somewhere).

II. Your lack of Counters to Crucial aspects.

Honestly, this part surprised me the most, I'd figure you'd at least put something for regarding TK/TP resistance, but nothing? Colour me surprised. In any case, this makes Mewtwo insanely powerful, and someone who can win the fight in one fell swoop should this tradition keep up.

III. Travel Speed =/= Combat Speed.

Don't know why I have to explain, but this should speak for itself. Most of the speed feats you showed were travel speed stuff, which everyone should know aren't the same things, and the combat fetas you did show are nothing Kirby can't handle, and everything Kirby has that relates to travel speed can also be applied, or has been applied in combat situations, so it's not something that can really be launched back at me.

IV. General Physicals

Honestly, to be blunt, Kirby's physical edge is pretty absurd. Between his own feats, the scaling he gets from the likes of Meta Knight (something I will likely expand on later) that dump all over Supes' opponents, and the one feat I've been hyping up, combined with equally insane durability and Warp Star, and frankly, Superman is never beating Kirby solo under any circumstance, and the only reason Manhunter stands a chance is cause of phasing, and even still, Kirby has the outs required to win.

V. How much you Ignored.

Honestly there was a lot from my opener you flat out ignored. ranging from Mewtwo's hax, to Kirby's insane physicals and more, making me really question if you have the outs to what my team has in store.

VI. You're Cheating.

Finally, yeah, this is pretty cut and dry, using PC and N52 feats for Superman is not allowed given the version you used, and logically this should be considered to everyone you scale him to by virtue of basic common sense regarding this rule (otherwise it'd be one hell of a double standard and cause the overall same problem of using other stuff that isn't allowed). To be blunt, this is my biggest concern, and if you can't show me any kind of decent reasoning as to why your using non-rebirth stuff, I'm genuinely disappointed, doubly so cause Kirby still dominates both of your members in terms of physicals.

So To Conclude:

  1. Kirby still outclasses your team in stats
  2. Most if not all the speed feats you showed can be seen as travel speed, and aren't that relevant in a fight like this.
  3. You've show no hax resistance whatsoever, making you easy pickings for Mewtwo and Darkrai
  4. Half the feats/scaling you showed for Superman shouldn't be allowed, and should quite frankly get you disqualified for cheating
  5. Kirby has the means to work around Manhunter's phasing
  6. I still win this with Kirby as MVP, quite frankly their's a case for him winning solo.
Come along now.
Come along now.
Avatar image for gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps
#33 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2465 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for thewatcherking
#34 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18241 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn, some people‘s characters are waaay underpriced.

Avatar image for xlr87t3
#35 Posted by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn, some people‘s characters are waaay underpriced.

That's literally every character in both our teams. Even Mewtwo deserves a shout out

Avatar image for thewatcherking
#36 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18241 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3 said:
@thewatcherking said:

Damn, some people‘s characters are waaay underpriced.

That's literally every character in both our teams.

Not really... but okay I guess.

Avatar image for sawed_off_it
#37 Posted by Sawed_Off_It (13228 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Avatar image for xlr87t3
#38 Posted by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps: I'm sorry I couldn't add the sources, it took too much time doing it on my phone, and the page refreshes so that's why I only added another bio to Martian Manhunter instead of doing more

Avatar image for gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps
#39 Edited by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2465 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for emperorthanos-
#40 Posted by EmperorThanos- (16041 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
Avatar image for xlr87t3
#41 Posted by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm almost done

Avatar image for emperorthanos-
#42 Posted by EmperorThanos- (16041 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
Avatar image for emperorthanos-
#43 Posted by EmperorThanos- (16041 posts) - - Show Bio

@xlr87t3: You think you will be able to get your post up by the end of the weekend?

Online
Avatar image for xlr87t3
#44 Edited by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: Yes, I actually have plenty of time this weekend finally. Thank you.

Avatar image for xlr87t3
#45 Posted by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for xlr87t3
#46 Posted by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio

@gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps:

I'll start with counters to put certain things to rest

Prep/Counters:

That wasn't from the Pokedex, moves themselves don't have entries, what I showed you were in-game descriptions separate from the Pokedex, so this comment is pretty misinformed. Also why isn't the Pokedex reliable, pray tell?

It's flowery speech, hyperbole. Please show me any beam of light that moves and acts like this:

No Caption Provided

That's just an energy blast, not an actual beam of light.

Unfortunately for you, that's not how Techno Blast works. The Drive's don't change the laser being fired in terms of it being made of light, it simply adds the element on top of the laser, lesso changing the element. For a weirder comparison, it's like adding Ketchup to a Hot Dog, the former doesn't completely change the ladder into a different food, just adds some extra flavour. Genesect's Drives work the same way.

This can be seen in the very way Genesect uses the Drive's, seen above, using the drive's moreso as a power source/enhancements for Techno Blast, rather than the Blast coming from the Drive themselves (they can use Techno Blast just fine without them, and it's not like they have any proof of changing power/speeds).

I've just proven the blast directly contradicting the description in the game. It's not a beam of light.

A fair assessment, one which I won't deny, but Mewtwo's still FTL by my books and your 'debunk' didn't change that, so it should be fine dodging all the same. And something worth noting is that Mewtwo has an out to it's poor defenses:

Mewtwo isn't FTL, and even if (S)he was, the Pokemon would still be a statue to Superman who is massively faster than light.

And that's Guard Swap, which is a move Mewtwo can learn, which swaps the durability with it's opponents, turning your character into someone as fragile as Mewtwo, and giving Mewtwo your defenses alongside his regular tricks remaining intact. Naturally this should work wonders on Superman, and gives Mewtwo all of the durability of Man of Steel would normally have, whilst leaving Clark at only City level+ durability, more than enough for Kirby to make him explode with a single punch.

Guard Swap switches stat changes, not base stats. Say a Clefairy uses Cosmic Power and gets +1 Def and +1 SpDef, and then Natu uses Guard Swap with +0 in either. Natu would then get Clefairy's +1 Def and +1 SpDef, and Clefairy would get Natu's lack of boosts. If there has been no changes in a Pokemon's stats, the move would fail. Same thing here. Mewtwo can't be as durable as anyone in my team, because we never amped ourselves. Mewtwo dies.

When did people have to actually see Darkrai to go intangible? That's never been a rule AFAIK, and he'll be intangible during prep thanks to the prep time, so I don't see your point.

I meant that Darkrai, even with prep, doesn't usually start out with intangibility. I've only seen him use that power when he directly reacts to something, and even then he's far more likely to try to dodge than to turn intangible, which will be his downfall. Either way, you've shown no durability feats for him so he gets oneshotted before he reacts.

Okay, so beyond the fact that I'm dumb AF and have no idea what the heck Law of Relativity even is, and google just made things more confusing (the best I have is "Special Relativity is the theory that no matter what constant speed you’re travelling all the laws of physics are the same.", which honestly I don't know how it's relevant to the Warp Star, so feel free to inform me), but the thing is that Kirby has been shown to manually control the warp star and control how it moves (referring back to Air Ride again, he clearly reacts to other racers and controls the Star itself), so it's not like he hasn't reacted to other things going at FTL speeds, as those other racers must have been going at similar speeds to the Warp Star, so he'd need to react to those speed accordingly, as well as beat people like Nightmare, who have reacted to, outpaced and even tagged the Warp Star, so whichever way you slice it, Kirby has still reacted to FTL dudes.

First law: The laws of physics are the same for all observers in uniform motion relative to one another (principle of relativity).

Basically, if everyone is going roughly the same speed, then obviously you'd be able to see them. When I am traveling in a car I move and react to walls and other things moving at 60mph, but when I am not in a car I can not react in the same way, because when traveling you actually don't require the ability to react all that much to obstacles, just make small motions with your fingers and toes and such.Therefor, ability to travel at high speeds =/= ability to fight and move your body and react at those same travel speeds.

And again, Kirby is highly unlikely to even consider using his warp star for a fight, especially when he has no idea who he's fighting against.

Well, on the ground Kirby's outran black holes on multiple different occasions (you can even see light being absorbed into the black hole in both instances, showing that they are legit), so he's very clearly FTL in ground speed. INB4 'muh game mechanics'.

Alright, Kirby is light speed or very slightly faster than light speed. Still gets blitzed, but this time he's slo-motion instead of a full statue to Martian Manhunter, and still a statue to Superman.

Superman

Uhhhh, that's not how this works. Using Rebirth version and having the PC and N52 versions as separate characters makes it very clear that you can only use Rebirth feats, otherwise it would've specified you were allowed to use N52/PC feats. If you were allowed all of those versions at once, why would they have them separate at all when you can just say "lol syke, actually they're all the same, so it doesn't matter"? Just doesn't make any sense to me beyond you trying to sneak a character in that's worth less than he should be. Now as someone who doesn't know the difference between what's PC, N52 and Rebirth, I have no idea what feats are legit and what aren't, so for the sake of argument, I will be covering mostly everything, but rest assured that I'm skeptical about literally everything you post that looks even remotely old.

I didn't say I was using New 52 feats for Superman, I said technically he is canonically both New 52 & Post Crisis which is a FACT, but more importantly I was saying that the writers didn't change their opinion on Superman's basic powerlevel, which is herald tier.

Gonna bunch all of these together for a simple yet obvious reason, as these are lifting feats, their's not much reason for them to be relevant mid-fight.

In your opinion. The reality is that lifting feats allow my team to physically crush or rip to shreds everyone except maybe Kirby, since only he has durability worth mentioning.

Fortunately for me, Moon level attacks are total fodder for Kirby, given his planetary+ low-end strength and durability, so this should be an issue for my puffball. Even if Superman was blood-lusted, seems like the best he'd do is planet level hits, which won't be enough to put Kirby down for good.

One moon level attack is not an issue, true. But Superman can punch easily several thousands of times per second. That many moon+ level to small planet level punches would surely effect planetary durability, and that's nowhere near his fastest operational speed since he can move and react in nanoseconds and Picoseconds. More like millions per second to be quite honest. But Martian Manhunter is also on our team so damaging Kirby was never an issue here unless you have proof that he can survive without a brain. I'll discuss your team's reaction time in the speed section.

Again, moon level isn't enough by Kirby's standards. And as far as scaling goes, I won't go into details about it for now, but whilst Superman scales to moon level people, Kirby scales above planet level opponents twice over, so either way, not that impressive.

That is only true if Kirby can even perceive Superman or react to his blitz (which I'll discuss below in the speed section). I say it's unlikely due to Superman's huge reaction and operational speed advantage.

Wouldn't that be more of a strength feat, rather than a durability feat, and thus isn't something to really judge how strong these constructs really are?

The constructs can take the weight of a planet but Timeless broke through it like nothing. A construct is not a muscle, it is an object which has tensile strength (hence the word construct). She put up a barrier and the tensile strength of the construct itself held the mass. In fact, the weight was only her at 38%, and later she was able to hold the ENTIRE PLANET together and shield it from the pressure and heat energy of a supernova explosion. It's easily a planet level durability feat for the constructs, and that is why Superman completely overpowering and treating several dozens of those timeless machines like they're ants is such a huge feat, because it shows that moon-planet level strength is nothing to him, he's stronger than them all!

Even 2 moons wouldn't be enough to threaten Kirby, and striking strength doesn't really translate to durability, so either way, this is nothing Kirby can't replicate.

It translates to how strong Superman is, because that level of strength is nothing compared to Superman. The Timeless Robots weren't beaten because of their lack of durability. Look at the scan I've linked you again, Wonder Woman and Aquaman failed to pierce their hide, Wonder Woman can't even use blunt force to hurt them.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/VScm9EDA3HxdGl_rNCslJ1xHtl1yfwVM0fDBSBozVb8KA7pxcN5Zywhy5HyFm7okTe2m6vyRQCFFjJyLXsgm45FyauMGhVW0mEPg266JlHlttvKoIRiHHpuyqCa9-Tp9EbZbSg=s1600

Only Superman was able to KO or do anything meaningful to the drones. And a bloodlusted Superman isn't going to slug it out, he's going to try to blitz everyone on your team, and only Kirby has the durability worth discussing. But again, Martian Manhunter is there to complete the job.

Durability

tbh, I'm not really sure how to even quantify this, moving a timeline isn't exactly something you can put a number on, but assuming what you claim it to be and say it's planetary, it's not enough to say Kirby couldn't replicate this, given how his planet level explosion feats are just as good, and one feat which I may bring up later is even better.

Moving a timeline of a solar system shows that Molly is completely OP, and although we are not sure how to quantify the power of speed force, magic, or the gods, we CAN put a number on how many Lanterns there are, which Molly gains the power of ALL of them combined. Sinestro Corps has 3600 members, GL Corps has 7200, and the other lantern corps (Indigo, Orange, Pink, Blue) are each very small in number and don't even add up to 100 members combined. So let's do math. Since I've proven that fodder rookie Lanterns are at least moon level at base (which is actually a massive lowball since random fodder GLs can match and tank planet busting attacks from Evil Star's starbands), having the energy of 7200+3600 lanterns is at least planet level power. Moon busting energy = 1.24e29 joules, so (1.24e29)*(7200+3600)= 1.3392e+33 joules, that's multi-planet busting, and Superman tanked the full blast and matched it with his heat vision. Even if Kirby, your most powerful member of your team, hits Superman with an attack, Superman has the feats to tank the blow.

Nice soul drain resistance, but it's kinda useless on my team given how none of them use soul draining.

Ok

I'll say it again, not impressive by Kirby's standard, and the weakness to magic shouldn't really cover that up.

Still better than Mewtwo and Darkrai, who are getting oneshotted by any attack from my team.

So he was basically taking multiple moon++ attacks in a row, if I'm getting this right? If so, nothing Kirby can't overtax, has he alone is Planet+ casually, as shown.

Superman was heavily weakened by Kryptonite, which is why they were able to beat him down like that. Full powered Superman is more durable than anyone in DC.

As shown, Kirby's replicated a remarkably similar feat. Also the scans really do seem like this is just a speed feat of outrunning a planet sized explosion, Supes is clearly flying fast than the explosion (notified by the explosion ring thing, if he truly tanked the explosion, he'd still be right in the middle of the explosion, not miles and miles away from the planet), which whilst is an impressive feat in it's own right, Kirby's travel between galaxies still outclass this for fairly clear reasons.

Kirby didn't replicate the feat, Superman replicated Kirby's. And Superman only left after he already tanked the planet exploding in his face while he was mid sentence.

This was the moment when he tanked the planet bust: https://tinyurl.com/y5jewz45

Anything after that is practically filler and doesn't take away from the fact that Superman TANKED a planet explosion from ground zero. So if Superman somehow wanted to slow down and let himself get hit by Kirby, he can handle Kirby's attacks no problem.

Speed

This is hardly something Superman can keep up consistently, so saying he'll be going at these speeds throughout the whole fight seems a bit off. And even if he does do this, it'd honestly do him more harm than good, given how he's exhausted by the end and would leave him as free pickings for Kirby soon after.

He was exhausted because he was racing the Flashes, who are way past the original Picosecond reaction speed and faster than anyone on your team by far. The scan says they were ACCELERATING, so Superman had to exert himself past the original speed just to keep up. Even if he was only at those levels of speed for a few seconds, that's still far more than enough time to blitz someone who's reaction time/combat speed is only light speed or slightly faster than light, like Kirby.

Kirby's Warp star has done as well, but better given the larger distance and less time, it's still superior than this.

The difference is, Superman uses his speed in a fight. Show me Kirby using Warp Star in a fight or even taking it out for anything except travel. Superman is going to blitz with this speed, prove that Kirby will.

Again, the Warp Star's done better. Keep in mind that the distance the average galaxy is about 13 billion light years, and the distance between earth and Saturn is about 1.2 billion, waaay more than what Supes does here, and it traveled roughly that distance in a matter of seconds, about the same time Superman took, so The Warp Star simply does better.

Too bad he never uses such travel speed in a fight. Superman does, automatically making his travel feats more relevant in this debate.

eh, MMFTl I'd doubt, as whilst I'll admit I don't have any hard numbers to prove it with, considering the small size of the moon compared to planets, and the relatively shorter distance Supes had to cover accordingly, I struggle to see it as this fast, definitely FTL for sure, but MMFTL+? I can't see it without some dumb calc-esque shenanigans going on. Also as a combat speed feat this isn't impressive at all, he's not reacting to anything, so gauging his fight speeds based on this seems nigh-impossible.

You doubt because you must, but anyone looking at the scan can tell without even calculating it that it's a massively massively faster than light feat, since gathering billions of debris piece by piece from the distance shown in the scan (2-3x moon diameter), moving them into earth orbit and fixing them as entire moon would take nigh-unlimited number of tasks in such a short time frame. It's like saying the bomb evacuation feat for Flash is simply FTL+ and not a reaction feat, because “distance is small”. Illogical. Also, it is an operational speed feat. Operational Speed>>>Reaction Time. Combat speed is just operational speed used in combat. For example, Spider-Man can “react” to a Mach 2 bullet due to his senses. But Quicksilver and Speed Demon has at least mach 2 operational speed, and sees Spider-Man in slow motion, which is why they still blitz him to oblivion. Or a better example, you can deflect or react to dodging a baseball moving at 90 mph but it doesn't mean you can throw punches even half as fast as that ball. Even if Kirby could somehow react in a nanosecond, he'd still get blitzed.

Misc:

Neither of which are important or relevant to the levels of my characters.

Wasn't meant to be.

Cool, Kirby's no-sold a planet sized explosion, so nothing he can't take with ease (or just absorb and spit right back tbh).

Still gonna hurt, and how is Kirby reacting to Superman's speed?

Not good enough for Kirby I'm afraid.

Whilst he was knocked unconscious for a bit, Kirby was stuck in a blast that's easily star level+, and was completely fine soon after, smiling like a little baby. A little heat like that isn't gonna kill Kirby at all.Also to note on the second half the that question, wouldn't that just make Hal casual moon level and not sun level? Just because they can eat suns doesn't necessarily mean they have sun level durability, right? I suppose you means energy durability, but that seems incredibly iffy, given the nature of how they seem to absorb the sun's power, less so much tank it like you seem to imply, as far as I can tell.

You have to overtax their absorption first, and that requires above star level energy. The Sun-Eaters could be as small as a pencil it wouldn't matter, you have to get past the absorption first. Them being roughly as big as a moon is an extra. And no, heat means nothing, since heat is literally energy. In fact, all matter contains heat energy. Even in the coldest voids of space, matter still has a very small but still measurable amount of heat energy. And a sun-eater eats all energy, including heat and light.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pfjSk-7a-kcFRmUNM27ReX1MDRBKMrEprPjGVLHhRxzgC1kaVBBZxpg6dgdLDswc0NyN-MO-k6s8=s1600

No Caption Provided

The only way the JLA were able to do anything to the creature was by luring it away from the sun using an artificial sun they created themselves.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ex3pSPmU1BxfYem9KmSjvwa24uFaVtQMNiYG1Z-WHK8uvlGD3Nb56bkv_vpZoL-JLIOPiMjUaDEA=s1600

No Caption Provided

In Rebirth, all it took was Hal Jordan and 2 fodder GLs to produce an entire freaking star, luring it away

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Again, that’s easily star level energy and Superman’s heat vision matched it with utter ease. Absolutely insane, and reason why I think Superman should still be able to hurt Kirby with HV even with the feat that you’ve shown me.

Can't see either of these being very relevant in this fight, so no issues here.

It’s relevant when my team finds your team the instant the fight starts. It’s relevant if anyone on your team decides to hide or disappear.

Manhunter:

Physicals:

Guess at this point I should probably put some lifting feats for Kirby as a point of comparison huh?

Here Kirby throws a monster and the frying pan it was on around the entire gosh darn sun, and have it loop around it, and have it return exactly where he threw it from. A pretty insane feat that shows that Kirby should be able to at the very, very least hold his own in terms of lifting strength (even if striking strength is what really matters, which Kirby seems to dwarf both of your members in, even without his best feat, which I've yet to reveal).

OK, a good feat. Still doesn't help him against someone he can't even touch.

3 Moon-planet level opponents shouldn't be anything Kirby can't replicate.

Still more than enough to physically crush the rest of your team

Feats for White Martians to suggest this is impressive?

I posted them below, which you've seen. Defeating that many heralds is crazy powerful by itself and indicative of strength at or above what Kirby is working with.

Gonna turn into a parrot, but moon busting isn't impressive by Kirby's standard, no matter how casual.

It’s far more impressive than both Mewtwo and Darkrai combined. And Martian Manhunter still has Intangibility.

Interesting, didn't know that Manhunter had a healing factor tbh, which whilst it will be annoying no doubt, isn't something my members can't work around, mainly with Mewtwo and Darkrai's non-physical attack which you've yet to show any resistance to, as well as other abilities Kirby has which I've yet to show.

If by non-physical you mean energy, than yes I’ve posted more than enough feats. And if you mean telepathy, then MMH can still kick out any minds and influences from his head using TP. That is his own “TP resistance”, and it can be applied to his teammate by TPing him as well. Your perk does not prevent that, it only prevents attacks on your teams own minds. Here, Martian Manhunter shields the minds of the entire Justice League from Dr Destiny, who had telepathic control of the entire earth.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

AFAIK, nanosecond timing is only roughly around light speed, so this shouldn't be an issue.

Nah, he was moving many meters in that span of time, which is easily dozens of times FTL in Combat/Operational Speed. If he just moved in 3-5 feet or less then it would be roughly around light speed, but Superman is above that.

Strength doesn't equal to speed, so still pretty unimpressive compared to Kirby.

They were barely able to react to the martian’s attacks, let alone survive it. The first thing the White Martian did was send everyone out the window before they can react or even put up a shield.

Mewtwo's done a very similar feat, as I've shown, except instead of vague, unquantifiable 'faster than thought' (whatever that means) movement, he's statued full on light speed lasers. And keep in mind that Kirby's a goos bit faster than Mewtwo.

Mewtwo is not light speed, only Kirby is barely above lightspeed in reactions, and that's not good enough for someone who can react at 8x light speed: https://m.imgur.com/a/UagBT

See the above statement.

Mewtwo isn't light speed, he's getting blitzed just like Darkrai

Abilities:

Fortunately both Kirby and Mewtwo have outs to invisibility.

For Kirby's side of the equation, this is where something I forgot to mention in my opener, his Spider Sense perk, will come in handy, which has helped Peter Parker react to invisible attacks before, so with that, plus Kirby's superior speeds, it shouldn't take long to find you and fight back accordingly.

My team is far faster than you team in everything, so the spider-sense is useless to begin with.

No Caption Provided

And as for Mewtwo, is ability to flat out sense where other people are should be more than enough to say Mewtwo will see you even if you're invisible (and Mewtwo will be scanning from before the fight starts thanks to prep, ready to find and TK/TP your duo).

He used telepathy to scan the area. Something he will wholly fail at due to Martian Manhunter being an infinitely superior telepath and blocking him.

Okay, phasing, certainly a massive pain in the butt, but nothing my team can't overcome.

Try me

For starters, based on all of the scans you provided (not bothering to go over all of them as I'd just be repeating myself), it doesn't seem like this gives TK/TP resistance, so Mewtwo should be able to just TK/TP Manhunter regardless if he uses phasing. But in terms of actually bypassing phasing, Kirby has 2 options to deal with this.

Physical Strength is TK resistance. What feats does Mewtwo have to even tickle MMH? Let alone try to control or manipulate his body which is stronger than anything in the Pokemon universe combined.

First thing Kirby can do is simply devour manhunter, as given his ability to eat beings like ghosts should grant him the ability to eat intangibles.

Not before the Invisible blitz

The other thing Kirby can do is summon his Star Rod (something he can do during prep if he feels like it, also worth noting that he doesn't need Tiff's help to summon the Warp Star, given their's some context to the state Kirby was in thanks to Nightmare), by absorbing a Warp Star, which happens to be his ultimate weapon, and should logically be stronger than any kid of physical attack he can muster. Which grants him the ability to defeat Nightmare, a super powerful ghost immune to most normal attacks, giving Kirby another potential out to Intangibility.

He can summon it, but since this is your team without ANY foreknowledge of who or what they’re dealing with, Kirby is simply not likely to take out his star rod at the start of battle, and that is far too late as J’onn will have already removed his brain. In fact, Kirby doesn't start or even think to use his warp star in 99.9% of situations. He would try a thousand things before he decided to use the warp star. By then, Martian Manhunter has already killed him with phasing.

Don't think shapeshifting's going to be all that useful, given how it seems (at least to me) that Manhunter would prefer to just stick with regular punches, so not to worried about this.

Martian Manhunter is bloodlusted and out to kill, so it’s absolutely in-character for him to start with the phasing attacks, just like he murdered those White Martians

Not enough to put Kirby down, as shown earlier.

It’ll take out the rest of your team, and that leaves one person on your team who is still slow as molasses compared to MMH.

Certainly useful on Darkrai I'll admit, but nothing that'l matter on the 2 that'll truly be important.

J’onn’s MV can hurt herald tiers, Mewtwo is not that durable even if (s)he upgrades her special defence to +6 which is the cap. That’s only 4 times more durable than the original stat. And the original stat is mountain level durability IIRC.

Just because it hurts intangibles doesn't necessarily mean it attacks things on a molecular level, or at least that scan didn't do anything to prove that it did beyond the intangibility hurting.

You're probably right, but it is one of the more reasonable explanations for the power.

Neither of those are that impressive, like, at all, Kirby could full on no-sell that, and I get regarding the former it's a White Martian and how you mentioned Manhunter is a 'peak Martian', but even 3x of that won't even phase the puffball.

I've already shown a Martian wrecking several heroes with MV, like Kyle Rayner who is able to survive an energy blast that destroyed the planet Oa: https://imgur.com/a/zKaUz94

Martian Vision can at least take out the rest of your team, and by that mean he oneshots them. Kirby will be handled by phasing.

Your conclusion:

Whilst I do think I can win this, there are some problems I would very much like too address.

I. Consistency.

Simply put, and I know that this is mainly a comic book problem, nor that I'm some all-consumer of all of things comic books, but what you showed seemed like the highest of high-end feats, blatantly ignoring all the equally consistent mid-low end stuff in order to highball these characters to hell and back. Maybe I'm just not knowledgeable for thinking this, but ignoring every single lower-end feat just because they aren't on the same level as the ones you showed doesn't seem right, especially the ones with no context attached to them (cause I know they do exist somewhere).

Superheroes as strong as Superman and Martian Manhunter aren't going to be moving celestial bodies every issue. As heroes, most of the time they're going to be doing pretty pedestrian work around fellow mortals on Earth, like saving cats from trees or stopping bank robberies, and most of their fights are against fodder. We only ever see the full extent of their power when it's necessary to the plot, and that is why those feats are how a character's power level is determined.

II. Your lack of Counters to Crucial aspects.

Honestly, this part surprised me the most, I'd figure you'd at least put something for regarding TK/TP resistance, but nothing? Colour me surprised. In any case, this makes Mewtwo insanely powerful, and someone who can win the fight in one fell swoop should this tradition keep up.

Nothing says that Mewtwo can just waltz in J'onn's mind and the latter can't block him. The perk only extends to protect your team's mind, it has no bearing on what goes on in my team's mind. Another thing, what feats does Mewtwo's TK have of effecting beings as strong and durable as Martian Manhunter, someone stronger than the Pokemon universe combined? Does adamantium need specifically TK durability feats for Mewtwo to not crush it like wet tissue?

III. Travel Speed =/= Combat Speed.

Don't know why I have to explain, but this should speak for itself. Most of the speed feats you showed were travel speed stuff, which everyone should know aren't the same things, and the combat fetas you did show are nothing Kirby can't handle, and everything Kirby has that relates to travel speed can also be applied, or has been applied in combat situations, so it's not something that can really be launched back at me.

Show the Warp Star being used in a fight. In the mean time, you've shown a grand total of one feat showing how fast Kirby can move his limbs, let alone think, all the rest were travel speed using an item that he's never taking out in this fight. On the contrary, I've posted multiple travel and reaction/operational speed feats for my team, and if you think building something as big as a moon from scratch at MFTL speeds isn't a "combat speed feat" then I have a bridge to sell you.

IV. General Physicals

Honestly, to be blunt, Kirby's physical edge is pretty absurd. Between his own feats, the scaling he gets from the likes of Meta Knight (something I will likely expand on later) that dump all over Supes' opponents, and the one feat I've been hyping up, combined with equally insane durability and Warp Star, and frankly, Superman is never beating Kirby solo under any circumstance, and the only reason Manhunter stands a chance is cause of phasing, and even still, Kirby has the outs required to win.

What physical edge when Kirby lacks a brain? Kirby needs a brain to do anything. And Warp Star is not an item used for fights.

V. How much you Ignored.

Honestly there was a lot from my opener you flat out ignored. ranging from Mewtwo's hax, to Kirby's insane physicals and more, making me really question if you have the outs to what my team has in store.

Statues can't fight back, and I didn't ignore anything

VI. You're Cheating.

Finally, yeah, this is pretty cut and dry, using PC and N52 feats for Superman is not allowed given the version you used, and logically this should be considered to everyone you scale him to by virtue of basic common sense regarding this rule (otherwise it'd be one hell of a double standard and cause the overall same problem of using other stuff that isn't allowed). To be blunt, this is my biggest concern, and if you can't show me any kind of decent reasoning as to why your using non-rebirth stuff, I'm genuinely disappointed, doubly so cause Kirby still dominates both of your members in terms of physicals.

Show me where I used New 52 feats for Superman. And no, it doesn't affect the characters he's scaled to because the rules literally says so. Logically=/=Actually. Actually, Green Lanterns have Post Crisis and Post Flashpoint feats as per rules, and canonically so do everyone in Rebirth, so just because Superman is artificially gimped doesn't mean all the rest are and Superman can absolutely scale to those characters, and all the "pre-Rebirth" feats were for characters that aren't Superman. You don't like it? Tough. I broke no rules.

My conclusion

  1. No proof that Kirby regularly uses his Warp Star in a fight situation
  2. No proof that Mewtwo is faster than light
  3. No proof that Darkrai or Mewtwo does anything but die immediately
  4. Everyone on your team is far slower than everyone on my team in reactions
  5. Your team has no counters to phasing, but MMH can counter Darkrai's
  6. The argument that I am somehow "cheating" is a ridiculous claim, and unfounded
  7. Your team is still getting speedblitzed the instant the "fight" starts
Avatar image for gilgameshthepimptoendallpimps
#47 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2465 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for emperorthanos-
#48 Posted by EmperorThanos- (16041 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
Avatar image for chronicplane
#49 Posted by Chronicplane (8836 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll try to get back to this, if not remind me on Monday.

Avatar image for xlr87t3
#50 Posted by XLR87T3 (9712 posts) - - Show Bio