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#1 Edited by emperorthanos- (16371 posts) - - Show Bio

Time for round 1

@geekryan

Characters

  • Magneto (5)
  • Jean Grey (3)
  • Invisible Woman (2)
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Perks

  • Morals Off (8)
  • Basic Knowledge (5)
  • 1 Hour of Prep (1)
  • 200 Ultron Bots (1)

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@aqualion0

Characters :

  • Monarch (10)
  • Vulcan (3)
  • Ultimate Invisible Woman (1)
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Perks :

  • 4 Extra character points - (10)
  • Perfect team work - (5)

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. Time Jumping, remnants, speeding up ones own time is allowed. Other forms of time manip is banned.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Power Copying/stealing.
  8. No Summons, constructs or any other fodder stronger than 616 Bleeding Edge Iron Man.
  9. Summons are limited to 200
  10. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote is unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet inside a Solar System like others, with no other people on it except for the fighters.

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#2 Posted by DiarrheaRegatta (4627 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag for every post.

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#3 Edited by Aqualion0 (1717 posts) - - Show Bio

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A. Monarch's Army - Intro

Monarch II (Captain Atom) :

After the events of Captain Atom: Armageddon, Cap suffered the attack of a Monitor which caused his skins to be breached, to contain his energy he was put on Monarch's armor but all the events he suffered caused him to have for a period madness in which he was able tap to the Quantum Field at its biggest potential due to lack of morals. Basically this was Captain Atom without morals for a while. He captured multiple versions of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and others, placed them in an Arena and forced th various versions of each other to fight to the death, with the survivor joining his army. Despite the attempts of various heroes to stop his plans, Monarch achieved his goals and readied his army to attack the Monitors, using Earth-51 as the battleground. As Monarch neared victory he was attacked by Superman-Prime who had been tricked by one of the Monitors, Solomon, into attacking. In the fight against Superman-Prime, Monarch's suit was damaged which released a chain reaction that destroyed the entire universe of Earth-51 aside from its Monitor, Nix Uotan.

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Ultimate Invisible Woman (Susan Storm) :

Susan Storm was a prodigy born into a genius family, and became a natural choice for the Think Tank for young geniuses her father established. When conducting an experiment to access an alternate dimension, a one in a million accident granted Sue, her brother Johnny, her romantic interest Reed, and Reed's friend Ben fantastic powers. The four became super heroes and explorers known as the Fantastic Four who frequently pushed the boundaries of science far beyond where it had ever been before. Susan's own biological expertise and power to turn herself and others invisible and create powerful forcefields made her a valuable asset to the team, and over time she only grew more powerful. Sue enjoyed a romantic relationship with Reed throughout much of the team's history, but she eventually broke things off when she decided that she wanted more independence. Although the breakup proved devastating for Reed, it gave Sue the chance to establish herself as a hero and adventurer who worked alongside the Ultimates and one day established her own team of super geniuses known as the Future Foundation.

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Vulcan (Gabriel Summers) :

Vulcan's history began on the Shi'ar throneworld, as the unborn child of Christopher Summers (later known as Corsair) and Katherine Summers, parents of Cyclops and Havok. Katherine was pregnant when the Summers were abducted by D'Ken, Majestor of the Shi'ar Imperium. The unborn child was seemingly killed when the mad emperor, in retaliation for an attempt by Corsair to escape, stabbed Katherine and killed her. The fetus was removed from Katherine's lifeless body and placed in an incubation-accelerator, which is used to breed slaves. As a result, the child was aged to the prime of adolescence. Sent to Earth to become a slave for Erik the Red, the Emperor's hand on Earth, he escaped and was found by Moira MacTaggert with little or no memories of who he was or where he came from. She took him as her ward and instructed him in the use of his nascent powers. He claimed his name was Gabriel, but he chose the code name of Vulcan from a book on Roman mythology, and Charles Xavier recognized his mental imprint as being related to Cyclops and his age suggests he is older. Vulcan became part of a team of X-Men formed by Petra, Darwin, and Sway that attempted to rescue the original X-Men from the sentient island Krakoa. Viewing Vulcan as a menace, Krakoa sent a human-shaped volcano to deal with his team, killing the two women and leaving Darwin and Vulcan for dead.

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B. Monarch's Army - The Leader

Physicals

I think it was obvious that main heavy hitter of my team would be Monarch. Even without this suit , Captain Atom himself is S tier character with vast quantum abilities. I could have started with how Quantum field is limitless power source and what it's capable of but... No. I prefer starting debate in old fashioned way , more simply - I'm going to start with Atom's physical capabilities including strength , speed and durability.

WTF strength feat occurred when Nate arrived in Wildstorm universe. Majestic a.k.a Superman on steroids started bullrushing and punching him. Captain Atom shruggs it off , states that he stops holding back and intercepts Majestic in mid-air using quantum energy and casually one-shots him while dropping one of the most badass lines on his history. Mr.Majestic has several multi-planetary feats and not to mention that before this encounter , CA tanked planet busting kryptonite meteorite exploding on him. Overally , this is a solid CQC showing.

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Here he tanks Firestorm's nuclear blasts and creates energy field to imprison him but quickly breaks. They have a brief scuffle , grappling , energy spamming , etc (I'm not posting entire fight) but at the end Atom handily knocks Firestorm out of his Matrix. This is the same guy who easily recovered Superman One Million's freezing breath , capable of snuffing out Giant Red Star.

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As for Monarch , he literally tanks bullrush from bloodlusted Superboy Prime , easily overcomes and takes all of his attacking attempts. At the end of their physical fight (before Monarch really starts fighting seriously) Atom is seemingly unscratched. What makes feat more impressive is that - this is not normal Superboy Prime we all know (Definition of teambuster) , this is Guardian amped version which basically makes him galaxy/universal level threat.

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Gets cheapshotted from behind by Ion Kyle Rayner but he easily shruggs it off.

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Monarch has surprisingly fast reactions and combat speed.

  • Easily deflects projectiles thrown by Forerunner and takes beating from her
  • With mere glare , disintegrates alternate version of The Ray who could travel at lightspeed (Give attention to his yellow form which implies that)
  • Early version of CA could tap into quantum field within microsecond
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Energy Projection

What do you except from a guy who's main power is to use radioactive blasts? Just another ability to kill your characters. Monarch casually destroys north america with continent sized AoE blast and kills millions of people in process.

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In Countdown : Arena , Nate takes on Captain Atom brigade , 3 Supermans , 2 Wonder Womans and many other alternate heroes of earth. All of them are equal or superior to their new earth counterparts but Monarch kills and drains all of them without much effort. He also tanked attacks from Christopher Kent, who absorbed the power of two other Supermen and probably was most powerful version of Superman in entire multiverse.

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Combined efforts from three fully charged Green Lanterns couldn't do a shit to him until GL Bruce Wayne ripped off his mask which unleashed enermous explosion and KOed every combatant except Monarch himself. After Superman Prime goes on nuts and removes breast plate from Atom's armor he accidentally unleashes quantum energies and destroys entire universe (besides from its Monitor) with chain reaction. Monarch recovered from it and only got amnesia which is obvious universal level feat.

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Other

With the help of Quantum field he is capable of absorbing infinite amounts of various types of energies. Even without suit Nate successfully drained explosion which fragmented Moon and absorbed kryptonite radiation capable of killing every S-tier hero on Earth (Captain Atom : Armageddon #1). And he did all of this without Monarch suit , just imagine how potent would Monarch's energy absorption be.

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He can travel through universes with The Bleed which is part of quantum field and can teleport beings with drastically different power levels. Second scan shows Cap using it to BFR Forerunner in outer space without effort.

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C. Monarch's Army - Troops

Vulcan and Sue are both fodder compared to Monarch but they still take some decent role in this fight.

Vulcan

Gabriel can manipulate and discharge any type of energy including magical , thermal , magnetic , etc. He oftenly uses it to project omnidirectional and massive energies. Here Vulcan staggers confident Gladiator with blast he unleashed and takes out Shi'ar guard via blowing up them from inside.

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Flies through several Chorus Sentries and easily destroys them. All of them has same power set as Black Bolt. Gabriel can also sense energies , feels starships approaching and heart beats of three Shi'ar vessels. Then rushes and effortlesly destroys the ships of power sources without even getting closer to them.

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Takes on Adam Warlock. hurts him with blast , drains his mystical energies and shruggs off his punch. After that Warlock escapes in order to save himself. Another fight is against Black Bolt. Gabriel eventually subdues him until BB screams but Vulcan rebuilds his body and attacks again. BB only manages to win due to Terrigen bomb exploding.

Sue Storm

Like her 616 counterpart she can create force fields , use fields to crush people and become invisible.

Defensive feats

  • Scan 1 : Block punches from Supreme Power Hyperion who could casually shake tectonic plates.
  • Scan 2 : Shields her team from magical transmutating blasts.
  • Scan 3 : Takes blast from Dormmamu amped by Human Torch's flames
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Offensive feats

  • Kills huge monster via expanding force field from its insides
  • Damages brain of zombie Reed Richards
  • Disintegrates machinery with it
  • Stops Kitty Pryde even though she was phasing at that time
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Invisibility

  • Makes herself and her teammates invisible
  • Can make the optic nerves invisible to blind opponents for several minutes
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Quick Summary

Despite the fact your team has good hax and versatile abilities they still lack durability. In other words - Your characters are glass cannons. Most of your team can create shield which is good but useless against Monarch who has casual continent and planetary level energy projection. Not to mention that our Sues are literal counters for each other. Adding Vulcan to team is overkill.

So , in conclusion

- No one can shield from Monarch's uncounterable energy blasts.

- Sue counters Sue or at least distracts her long enough to others finish their battles and take out her.

- If Magneto tries to manipulate Monarch's armor he is gonna ultimately fail. Even SPB Prime couldn't rip off its breast plate easily and we all know how Magneto sucks at affecting highly durable bricks.

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- Tbh Jean Grey is main factor on your team. I highly doubt that her telepathy's gonna work against Monarch and Vulcan. Both of these characters has shown to be able to resist planetary telepathy. In addition of that , Vulcan effortlesly shut down Rachel Gray's mind via manipulating neurons in her brain. Same thing goes for Jean. Telekinesis and pink form can be countered with simple logic. Jean has only able to drain psi from characters with high psionic abilities such as Gladiator and my characters basically doesn't have any psi at all. Even if she manages to drain she would still fail to hurt Monarch because Jean oftenly uses all of her absorbed energy in one attack. She might stagger him but nothing more. One shot one kill.

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@geekryan GL.

@diarrhearegatta

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#4 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio

@aqualion0: Alright, cool!

So are we doing 3 posts each?

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#5 Posted by Aqualion0 (1717 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17630 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

Online
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#8 Posted by emperorthanos- (16371 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator Online
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#9 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: Working on it! Should have it up by tomorrow or Monday

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#10 Edited by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio

Post #1 - Opener

Magneto

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Magneto's CV page

Since Magneto has tons and tons of different powers, I'll keep it simple and generalize a lot of it.

Powers/Abilities:

  • Magnetic Field Manipulation
    • Blasts
    • Force Fields
    • Flight
    • Metal Manipulation
    • Gravity Manipulation
    • Electromagnetic Spectrum Manipulation
  • Telepathic Resistance
  • Genius Intellect
  • Gifted Leader/Tactician/Strategist

Feats:

Physicals

I'll keep this part just about speed, since our battle likely won't become physical at any point.

  • Magneto is fast enough to capture and incapacitate a team of superheroes, including Quicksilver (link)
  • Magneto erects a barrier before Quicksilver can blitz him from a few feet away, which would have worked if not for Scarlet Witch intervening (link) ***Note: Quicksilver has many FTL speed feats; I can provide some if necessary***
  • Catches Cannonball mid-flight (link) ***Note: Cannonball travels at speeds at or slightly above supersonic***
  • Without even looking, stops Beast mid-lunge from like two feet away and hits Nightcrawler as he teleports in (link)
  • Catches Northstar, who is as fast if not faster than Quicksilver, despite Magneto saying otherwise (link)
  • Intercepts Mjolnir and stops it mid-flight. He also owns Thor. (link)
  • Repels a lightning bolt as it is about to strike (link)

Powers

Because Magneto, Jean, and Sue all have decades of feats to draw from, I'll keep it short and showcase some of their most noteworthy/relevant feats.

  • Probably one of his best feats. With intense effort, Magneto pulls the Breakworld Bullet (an intangible, city-sized, planet-busting object moving at light speed outside of Earth's solar system) to Earth in order to save Kitty Pryde. (link) ***Note how he is physically and psychically shielding himself at the same time***
  • Owns The Avengers, which include Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, Vision, Yellowjacket, and Wasp. (link)
  • Shields himself, the X-Men, and Asteroid M (considered to be the size of a small planet), from an energy cannon capable of busting a planet (link) ***Proof that it could bust planets***
  • His force fields have tanked attacks from Phoenix, Thor, Dr Doom, Iron Man, Havok, a simultaneous attack from Thor AND She-Hulk, as well as many others:
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  • Destroys Proteus (link) ***Note: Proteus is a powerful reality-warper composed of pure energy***
  • A blast sends Iron Man through a massive ship and far into the horizon (link)
  • Draws the energy out of Phoenix (link)
  • Rearranges and controls a Celestial (link)
  • Powerful and precise enough to balance a platform weighing thousands of tons atop a spire that is a meter wide (link)

Jean Grey

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Jean Grey's CV page

With morals off, Jean will not be holding back at all and will have full access to her powers.

Powers/Abilities:

  • Telepathy (Planetary)
    • Mind Reading
    • Telepathic Communication
    • Mind Link
    • Cloaking
    • Shielding
    • Illusions
    • Mind Control
    • Mental Detection
    • Sleep Inducement
    • Pain Inducement
    • Mind Blast
    • Astral Projection
    • Psychic Energy Absorption
  • Telekinesis
    • Blasts
    • Force Fields
    • Flight
    • Matter Manipulation
  • Empathy

Feats:

Telekinesis

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1) Can temporarily restrain Juggernaut

2) Sends Thor flying into the air

3) Stops Quicksilver with her TK as he is running away

4-5) Holding off Apocalypse

6) Restrains Hope Summers and Deadpool with her TK

She can hurt Iron Man and almost kills him with pure telekinetic energy (link) ***Note: This was one of Iron Man's superior suit models***

Jean has also exhibited molecular-level telekinesis (link)

Now for her shields:

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1) Blocks a punch from Black Bolt

2) Blocks a punch from Abomination (comparable to Hulk in strength)

3) Blocks an energy attack from Black Bolt

4) Her shields tank an island-busting explosion

5) Tanks the energy attack of The Stranger, who is comparable to Galactus and the Watchers in power and has easily owned Silver Surfer, Thor, and Adam Warlock

6) Teen Jean shields herself and others against the Phoenix Force

Teen Jean also did this:

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Telepathy

To start this off: Matthew Rosenberg, one of the main writers for X-Men in the last few years said this:

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Jean > Xavier

As for actual feats...

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1) Can shut off powers

2-3) Can affect Juggernaut, who is basically immune to TP ***Note: Xavier was never even able to bypass his TP defences***

4-5) Overpowers Emma's control over Scott

6) Undoes Cassandra Nova's TP suggestion over Storm

7) Force The Hulk back into Bruce Banner ***Note: Hulk had insane TP resistance at the time***

8) Psychic shout that harms a Phoenix-amped Emma Frost

9) Phoenix Raptor, an attack that bypasses all shields

Next...

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Jean was able to use her empathy/telepathy to show Life Seed-amped Nate Grey the pain he caused. Jean also freed the Horsemen under his control. This version of Nate was probably one of his most powerful, capable of single-handedly fighting off all the X-Men and warping reality on a massive scale.

Probably her most impressive set of feats, involving an amped Binary:

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  1. Jean flies through hyperspace, which requires a minimum of FTL speed and shows that her TK can survive the immense pressure of space while moving at said FTL speeds.
  2. Jean has to encase Binary in a psychic shield and carefully use her TP in order to avoid frying Binary's synapses
  3. Jean enters the White Hole, which again shows how much pressure her TK can withstand. Jean also uses her TP on Binary, despite the fact that she is resisting and being controlled by an alien presence and while she is lashing out massive amounts of energy.
  4. The shockwave from Silver Surfer's involvement is felt "throughout the universe" and threatens to destroy the X-Men's ship
  5. Binary is released/saved and Jean had them both in a TK shield to protect them from the shockwave

That's the basic and TL;DR version of what happened, but I didn't leave out any of the important/relevant details about Jean.

Jean has many feats that put her at planetary level, as well as feats that put her above Emma Frost and Prof X. I can provide these if necessary.

Invisible Woman (Susan Storm)

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Invisible Woman's CV page

Powers/Abilities:

  • Invisibility
    • Self
    • Others
    • Partial
    • Negation
  • Force Fields
    • Offensive Uses
    • Defensive Uses
    • Telekinesis
    • Flight

Feats:

I won't really get into physicals because her strength and durability aren't important, especially in our fight. I will however bring up one noteworthy speed feat of her erecting a force field a few feet in front of a speeding Quicksilver before he can cross the room (link)

Invisibility

We all know that Sue can turn herself and others invisible to all the wavelengths of light. Sue's invisibility is one of the best in comic books.

While her, Reed, and Been were shrunk down, she did this:

"On our scale that's the equivalent of making the moon disappear."

Now here are a few fun and unique things she can do with invisibility:

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1) Can blind someone by turning off their optic nerves

2) Invisible energy was covering Manhattan, and she made it visible

3) She can naturally see invisible things

Force Fields

This is where Sue gets really powerful, but before I get to the offensive & defensive capabilities, just a few more fun things about her force fields:

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1) Sue can use her force fields to turn intangible people tangible and solid

2) Her force fields block matter manipulation

3) They can remain up even when Sue is unconscious

4) They can be activated automatically even while she's asleep

5) Her shields can block both TP & TK

Now for some of her defensive force field feats:

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1) Shields from Human Torch's supernova ***Statements of how powerful/dangerous Johnny's supernovas can get***

2) Contains the Gamma Bomb, which could have killed all heroes present including Hulk, Thor, Hercules, Thing, She-Hulk, etc.

3) Easily tanks punches from an angry Black Bolt and Namor ***Note: Both are planetary in striking strength***

4) Blocks a blast from Silver Surfer

5) Contains Gladiator and withstands some of his punches ***Note: Gladiator can contend with the likes of Thor and Binary***

6) Can cover an entire city from a blast that would have done damage for hundreds of miles

7) Briefly maintains a force field in the Incursion, which destroyed multiple universes

8) Her shield blocks a massive lightning blast from Ragnarok, an evil robot clone of Thor

Last but not least, a few offensive force field feats:

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1) Sends Juggernaut flying backwards ***Note: Also casually shielding herself from Thing & Human Torch***

2) Sends Hulk flying backwards

3) Knocks Namor down to the floor

4) Shockwave that sends a group of Avengers back (includes Thor, Hulk, Iron Man, Luke Cage, etc.)

5) Incaps a group of Avengers, which included Hulk, She-Hulk, Captain Marvel, etc.)

6) Owning Luke Cage & Iron Man

7) Owning Dr Doom

8-9) Solos a group consisting of some huge heavy-hitters like She-Hulk, Thing, Absorbing Man, and Titania

You might be wondering why I skipped some of her particular offensive feats...Just wait until the prep/strategy section ;)

And to finish this off, a few more impressive feats:

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1) Traps both Hulk and Thing in force fields ***Note: Hulk even acknowledges he is trapped***

2) Force field around Mjolnir and sends Thor flying off

3) Threatens to kill an amped Thing

4) Tanks punches from World War Hulk

Her force fields are also strong enough to hurt and knock down Doom the Annihilating Conqueror. This is an alternate universe Dr Doom with the combined powers of Kang the Conqueror and Annihilus.

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Ultron Sentries (200)

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Ultron Sentries' MCU Wikia page

Powers/Abilities:

  • Superhuman Strength
  • Superhuman Durability
  • Flight
  • Energy Projection

Feats:

  • Strong enough to temporarily grapple with Captain America (link)
  • Casually punch through a truck's windshield (link)
  • Two Ultron Sentries can fly off with a large truck (link)
  • Easily tear through concrete (link)
  • Catch up with a truck driving away *note: they are only slightly slower than the train next to them* (link)
  • While almost already destroyed, can easily tank a few bullets (link)
  • One/two-shot regular humans (link)
  • Can cause small explosions with their weapons (link)

They will mostly serve as distractions and scrap metal for Magneto to use. While Monarch and Vulcan can very likely tank their attacks, Ultimate Invisible Woman will be quickly taken out if she lets down her shield for whatever reason. Their attacks will also pressure your team, especially Sue's force fields. Two hundred flying opponents with low-level superhuman physicals and energy projection is a pretty big distraction.

Perks

Other than the 200 Ultron Sentries, I have morals off, basic knowledge, and 1 hour of prep.

Morals Off

This is an extremely dangerous and useful perk for my team. Both Jean and Sue tend to fight with morals on, and even Magneto doesn't always go for the kill. With this perk, all 3 of my members will not hesitate to kill you. In fact, they will actively try to kill you. None of them will hold back and will fight to the fullest of their capabilities in order to survive and win.

Basic Knowledge

Another very dangerous and useful perk for my team to have. While most of our characters are from the Marvel universe anyways and know of each other, this perk gives my team very solid information about your team and their capabilities. This perk provides me with as much information as is presented on a character's Wikia page, which is quite extensive. The history, powers, abilities, and equipment of your team will be known to my team. Since you do not have any knowledge or prep, my team will be much more prepared for the battle and can plan accordingly. Your team, on the other hand, will have no clue who they are facing and will have no chance to strategize or share information.

Prep

All 3 of my characters are quite familiar with each other, especially Jean and Magneto. Despite their complicated history and past differences, Magneto will willingly work alongside Jean & Sue. He has worked with the X-Men many times in the past, and there is no reason why he wouldn't do so again in an encounter where his survival is on the line. Each of my team members have a role to play in prep.

Jean's role is the simplest: to establish a psychic link. The mind link will allow my team to better communicate and coordinate. Since they all know each other, there will be no need to exchange information about their powers and abilities. They can communicate telepathically rather than having to talk.

Magneto has a much larger role. For starters, he will analyze the capabilities of the Ultron Sentries in order to determine what they are and what they can do. Given his precise control over all forms of metal, as well as his ability to see metallic energy and the electromagnetic spectrum, this will be easy for him to do.

He will configure the Sentries to make them even deadlier. For example, he will transform parts of their bodies into nano-edged blades and reinforce their metal. He will then use some of the metal on the Sentries to make armour for himself, Jean, and Sue. This quickly-formed armour was able to damage Iron Man and tank some of his attacks. This armour won't even be needed, but it will drastically increase the durability of my team.

The final part of Magneto's prep was mentioned in the scan I just linked, but he will siphon off the energy from the planet we are on (as well as any surrounding planets) in order to amp himself up to his maximum power levels. Here is another occasion where he has done this. This will ensure that Magneto will be at his full strength.

Lastly is Sue, who will quite obviously make herself, Jean, and Magneto completely invisible. Since your team has no knowledge about us, you will not know who you are facing, and once the battle begins, you will not be able to see us. All you will see are the enhanced Ultron Sentries, who will distract you long enough for my team to attack.

How will we attack you? With morals off, my team's strategy will be to eliminate your team as fast and ferociously as possible.

Magneto:

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Invisible Woman:

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Jean Grey:

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All of the feats I just presented for my team are quite self-explanatory, but I can provide context for each of them if needed.

Basically, my team will hit you hard and fast. Between the three of them and all the feats I have shown, they have multiple ways to KO or straight up kill everyone on your team.

Strategy

As your team spawns and the battle begins, Jean will also telepathically cloak my team, adding another layer of invisibility to prevent you from even detecting us. She has done this on many occasions:

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1) A young and inexperienced Jean camouflages the X-Men from construction workers, after just having learnt the technique

2) Sneaks into Miles Morales' house

3) Hides from a beach full of people

4) Teen Jean and Rachel cloak themselves from all the Inhumans of New Attilan ***Note: An older/experienced Jean could definitely replicate this on her own since her power is above Rachel's***

5) Cloaks a team of X-Men from Mr Sinister and the Marauders ***Note: Mr Sinister is a very powerful telepath***

6-7) Cloaks herself, Nightcrawler, and Trinary from Gambit ***Note: Prof X and Psylocke have had trouble affecting his mind in the past***

So, we are invisible through Sue's powers as well as Jean's telepathy. Since you won't even know who you are facing, you'll have to detect us and bypass both layers of invisibility in order to even see us.

As the battle begins, the Ultron Sentries will charge your team, serving their purpose as the distraction. They will apply pressure through energy projection and physical attacks, split across all 3 of your team members.

Sue and Magneto will immediately focus on your Ultimate Sue with internal attacks. Your version of Sue doesn't have the feats to suggest that she could counter any of their internal attacks, and will die pretty instantly, especially since her attention/focus will be drawn to the Sentries.

Jean will immediately target Monarch and attempt to shut his brain down. Neither Monarch nor Captain Atom have the level of telepathic defences necessary to resist a morals off Jean Grey.

Magneto and Sue will then direct their attention to Vulcan, while Jean keeps Monarch busy. He is more durable than Ultimate Sue, but he will go down through a combination of internal attacks. Manipulating your blood, inducing strokes and seizures, imploding you with a force field, etc. And again, our team will remain undetectable through this so the only opponents you will realistically counter are the Sentries.

With Vulcan down, my team can gang up on Monarch, if Jean didn't already manage to shut off his brain. Another combination of internal attacks to help Jean and Monarch is going down.

All of this happens with your team not even able to mount a counter-attack, let alone see or detect us.

Counters

I won't do much countering in this post, since you mostly just presented your characters and their capabilities.

I will mention though that most of your Monarch feats involved physicals and CQC, neither of which will be a major factor in our particular fight since none of my characters are "physical" characters. My strategy also negates any chance you have of making this CQC.

Monarch's energy projection is impressive, but most of it relies on massive AoE attacks and/or collateral damage. With perfect teamwork, it is highly unlikely Monarch will unleash an AoE blast and take out his own team. Furthermore, he will be immediately targeted by Jean's TP and won't exactly have the time to fire off an energy blast. Since we know Monarch can explode and wipe out everything after taking enough physical damage, we won't be trying to kill him, but to KO him.

With the help of Quantum field he is capable of absorbing infinite amounts of various types of energies. Even without suit Nate successfully drained explosion which fragmented Moon and absorbed kryptonite radiation capable of killing every S-tier hero on Earth (Captain Atom : Armageddon #1). And he did all of this without Monarch suit , just imagine how potent would Monarch's energy absorption be.

Being able to absorb various types of energies is great, but AFAIK, he won't be able to absorb Jean's telepathic energy or prevent any internal attacks that Magneto and Sue use against him.

Also, you will need to provide concrete evidence or proof in order to back up Monarch's energy absorption being superior to Captain Atom's. As you said, Monarch is just a morals off Captain Atom.

He can travel through universes with The Bleed which is part of quantum field and can teleport beings with drastically different power levels. Second scan shows Cap using it to BFR Forerunner in outer space without effort.

Good thing BFR isn't allowed then.

Gabriel can manipulate and discharge any type of energy including magical , thermal , magnetic , etc. He oftenly uses it to project omnidirectional and massive energies. Here Vulcan staggers confident Gladiator with blast he unleashed and takes out Shi'ar guard via blowing up them from inside.

If the inclusion of "magnetic" will lead you to imply that he could absorb Magneto's attacks, you will need to provide feats of this. And again, omnidirectional blasts don't make much sense when you aren't being surrounded, you don't know who is attacking you, and your teammates are nearby with perfect teamwork.

Despite the fact your team has good hax and versatile abilities they still lack durability. In other words - Your characters are glass cannons. Most of your team can create shield which is good but useless against Monarch who has casual continent and planetary level energy projection. Not to mention that our Sues are literal counters for each other. Adding Vulcan to team is overkill.

Durability won't really be needed for my strategy to work. Jean and Sue are glass cannons without their shields, but I have shown that Magneto can take a pretty good beating without his shields.

Additionally, all 3 of my team members have blocked planetary-level attacks with their shields, and some of them even above planetary. Combine all 3 and you won't be getting past them.

Our Sues aren't "literal counters" for each other. For one, my Sue is morals off. Your Sue is Ultimate and therefore lacks feats. My team also has prep, which involves eliminating your Sue as fast as possible to prevent her from seeing/revealing us through our Sue's invisibility.

- If Magneto tries to manipulate Monarch's armor he is gonna ultimately fail. Even SPB Prime couldn't rip off its breast plate easily and we all know how Magneto sucks at affecting highly durable bricks.

Really? You provided ONE example of Magneto failing to manipulate a metallic opponent... How about when he was able to affect a Celestial and become its surrogate nervous system? Or all the other times his powers have worked on vastly superior opponents. The only times his powers haven't worked against a certain metal is because of PIS.

- Tbh Jean Grey is main factor on your team. I highly doubt that her telepathy's gonna work against Monarch and Vulcan. Both of these characters has shown to be able to resist planetary telepathy. In addition of that , Vulcan effortlesly shut down Rachel Gray's mind via manipulating neurons in her brain. Same thing goes for Jean. Telekinesis and pink form can be countered with simple logic. Jean has only able to drain psi from characters with high psionic abilities such as Gladiator and my characters basically doesn't have any psi at all. Even if she manages to drain she would still fail to hurt Monarch because Jean oftenly uses all of her absorbed energy in one attack. She might stagger him but nothing more. One shot one kill.

Jean is more powerful than Xavier, Emma, Rachel, etc. She's the top tier telepath at standard power levels. She even managed to defeat Life Seed-amped Nate Grey, who was owning all the X-Men and had the power to wipe them from existence.

In order for Vulcan to manipulate the neurons in our brains, he will have to be able to see us and get by any shields we have up.

I'm not even going to bother mentioning the pink/astral form.

Conclusion

  • Monarch and Vulcan have vastly superior physicals, but physicals won't even be a factor in our fight
  • Monarch and Vulcan are very powerful, but the use of hax and versatility in my strategy makes their immense power a non-factor.
  • My choice of perks allow my team to set-up a pretty solid strategy with lots of hax and lethality
  • With no knowledge or prep, your team won't know who they are facing and won't have any time to strategize and implement a plan

To recap my prep/strategy for those who want a TL;DR version:

  • Jean establishes a psychic link to make my team's communication and coordination faster and more efficient
  • Magneto reinforces the Ultron Sentries, siphons off the energy from all surrounding planets to make himself as powerful as he can be, and creates metallic armour for himself, Jean, and Sue.
  • Sue makes our main team members invisible
  • As the battle begins, Jean telepathically cloaks our team, thus adding a second layer of invisibility
  • The Ultron Sentries will be the only visible targets and will assault your team to serve as a distraction
  • Magneto and Sue will take out your Ultimate Sue with internal attacks while Jean attacks Monarch telepathically
  • Magneto and Sue will then focus their internal attacks on Vulcan and take him out next
  • My team will then focus on Monarch, assaulting him with whatever attacks they can while Jean shuts down his mind

Your move!

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#11 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by Aqualion0 (1717 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by InvadedTBD (1544 posts) - - Show Bio

TAEP and T4V

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#16 Posted by tomtheawesome123 (1530 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V please

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#17 Edited by Aqualion0 (1717 posts) - - Show Bio

Round II.

Alright , this was quite big and delicious post to read. Though there are many problems and issues with it. For example , your perks. Being morals off doesn't give your team actual upper hand. My team consists schizo killer who tried to conquer 51 universes , crazy egoistic psycho who also tried to conquer interdimensional empires and Sue. Despite Susan's kindness when situation needs she's quite ruthless. In other words my team is also going to fight at their fullest. Basic knowledge is cool but not in our battle where my team has tremendous advantage in both , offense and defense.

Countering Magneto |

Your entire part of physicals is irrelevant because feats you posted mostly scales from subsonic to MHS and Quicksilver is nowhere near FTL. His only lightspeed and an outlier feat is outrunning radio waves. Monarch has FTL combat speed , Vulcan was keeping pace up with Marvel's main heavy hitters and Susan has reacted to Ultimate QS numerous times. No speed difference.

Probably one of his best feats. With intense effort, Magneto pulls the Breakworld Bullet (an intangible, city-sized, planet-busting object moving at light speed outside of Earth's solar system) to Earth in order to save Kitty Pryde. (link) ***Note how he is physically and psychically shielding himself at the same time***

Let's draw the line. Magneto had trouble performing planet level feat and you think that he would be able to kill Vulcan? Let alone Monarch. Nevertheless , impressive feat but considering strain and concetration Mags took it's not useful against my team.

Owns The Avengers, which include Thor, Iron Man, Captain America, Vision, Yellowjacket, and Wasp.

Teambusting? Hah. Vulcan trashed X-Men and Shi'ar imperial guard and Monarch owned most powerful Supermen , Wonder Women , Green Lanterns and 51 Captain Atoms from various earths.

Shields himself, the X-Men, and Asteroid M (considered to be the size of a small planet), from an energy cannon capable of busting a planet

Link is dead. Cool , but Monarch has damaged many planetary level beings including an amped Superman Prime who in the same comic run busted earth sized alternate planet and tanked its explosion. Basically , Monarch's damage output far exceeds planetary level. Magneto is not blocking Monarch's blasts.

His force fields have tanked attacks from

Phoenix

*Casual blast

Thor

Internesting word choice when Magneto himself says his shield can't hold any longer and then Thor drains magnetic field from him. This is anti-feat on many levels. I mean I have omega level and god tier energy manipulator while you posted scan where Magneto's field gets nullified via energy absorption.

Dr Doom

Doom is shit.

Iron Man

Same goes for Tony.

Havok

You mean same Havok who got bitched by Vulcan and couldn't even kill him when he was amped by frigging star?

Thor AND She-Hulk

Monarch is better. Not to mention Thor oftenly holds back a lot.

Destroys Proteus

Proteus's main weakness is metal and magnetism.

A blast sends Iron Man through a massive ship and far into the horizon

Are you comparing classic Iron Man with my team? Hell , even Sue would be able to tank this.

Draws the energy out of Phoenix

I need more context about this feat because Jean/Phoenix seems to be weakened. ''But I though I had no limit!'' this implies something's wrong.

Rearranges and controls a Celestial

Main problem is that Celestial is dead and I highly doubt Mags would affect Monarch's armor like this. In addition it's internal life energy which gives Celestials power not armor or exterior. I'm not denying feat is impressive though.

Powerful and precise enough to balance a platform weighing thousands of tons atop a spire that is a meter wide

Barely combat applicable. Magneto tries to drop something heavy on my team and Sue stops it with force field or Monarch/Vulcan vaporizes it with single blast.

Countering Jean Grey |

Most powerful Green Lanterns and Supermen failed to restrain Monarch. You showed nothing special about her TK besides pushing back/stopping mid and high tier characters which in this case is useless. There's no need to waste time on shields because only impressive scans you showed were blocking blasts from Stranger and Phoenix Force but actually they aren't that ridiculous as you point out. Stranger's eye beams couldn't KO Toad (street-tier) and Phoenix wasn't trying to kill or harm Jean. I win this argument , unless you show me Jean doing something above planetary besides from white hole feat (She can't replicate same and even if she does Monarch is still superior on many ways).

Unfortunately for Jean , Monarch is practically immune to any kind of mind attack. Let's see :

  • Resisting basic telepathy while he doesn't have armor on.
  • Unaffected by Synapse. Synapse is powerful psychic who easily bested Maxima before this.
  • Breaks free from Forlorn's magical mental compulsion. Even Mordru admitted to be inferior to her.
  • Gives Voodoo vast information while she tries to attack , instantly overloading her.
  • Kills Martian Manhunter despite his planet+ level telepathy.
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^above-mentioned feats were occured when Nate didn't have Monarch suit. Now imagine his TP resistance with suit-on.

Countering Fodder |

Sue storm is fodder. She regularly fails to contain or hold massively powerful beings like Monarch. Also she gets heavily exhausted and receives nose bleeds after pushing herself to limits. You posted many ''feats'' which turns out to be anti-feats. She only briefly holds Gladiator,Hulk , Thor and main powerhouses whom are always holding back whereas Monarch doesn't and will keep pouring energy beams until her shield breaks.

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Here Monarch breaks force field that several superheroes couldn't. Same thing goes for Sue's fields.

Can't see how old junks are going to pose any threat. Cannon fodder is irrelevant in high-caliber battles. Temporar distraction ? Nope. Cap effortlesly slaughtered numerous extra-dimensional monsters. It's worth mentioning each of them had enough strength to hurt Ion Kyle Rayner. Ultimate Sue should be also able to solo them.

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vs Your Strategy |

Magneto Siphons Energy

Magneto can't fully absorb planet's energy and you are relying on very uneffective ability. He wasn't able to do it until Polaris amped him with her magnetic energies. Solely taking planet's entire energy is simply beyond his power level and using it for offensive purposes isn't happening. Even if he manages he'll burn out quickly as he said.

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Magneto Configures Sentries

My team obviously has enough firepower to deal with that. Also you previously said that Sentries were for distraction , how the hell Magneto is going to make weapons from nothing? Furthermore they're just scrap metal (literally) and Monarch , Vulcan and Sue all have powerful shields.

Sue's Invisibility and Jean's Cloaking

Vulcan resisted Rachel and I already showed Monarch's TP feats. Another way to notice both of them is to detect their energy signatures. Vulcan has done it in past , he sensed power cells of Shi'ar vessels and Cap is pure quantum being. Quantum energy = chi energy = life-force energy. He also has enhanced sensatory which allows to perceive/feel energy particles down to the subatomic level.

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Internal Attacks

In case if anyone thinks that your characters can directly attack internal organs of my characters.

  • Magical transmutation proves to be useless against Sue. It only transmutes force field and can't affect her.
  • Captain Atom is immune to Molecule manipulation, as shown by being immune to the energies of Monarch 1, who was killing every other hero on the planet with bolts that transmute organic matter at atomic level. Black Bolt unleashes his voice (Which could casually bust planets and damage Thanos) and almost vaporizes Vulcan. Later Gabriel literally rebuilds himself by manipulating internal energies and attacks BB.
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Onesided Battle |

Let's have a good break down of your strategy and claims. First thing you used is Jean's telepathy and ''instantly shutting down'' Monarch , disputable nonsense . Any hax can be countered with extreme force , in this case with Monarch's overall power. Being able to contend and casually play with Guardian amp SBP (For reference without that amp SBP tanked galaxy level explosion) indicates that he is just that strong to resist planet level hax whether it'll be telepathy , telekinesis , strength , etc. Captain Atom is also quantum elemental , allowing him to enter astral plane - main aspect of Psi stuff.

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In Captain Atom #43 he faces Nekron (Leader of Black Lantern corps , you can take him as casual star level threat if not solar system/galaxy level. He is certainly superior to Jean Grey in every way) Then he easily drains and beats Nekron. This happened because astral plane is part of Quantum field and once Monarch realises that he is facing strong telepath he would take fight to here. Basically Jean is going to face him in his own realm where her winning chance is zero. If Jean tries to start fighting with her TK she instantly gets vaporized , so you simply don't have anything to counter Monarch.

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Next you claim Magneto alongside with Sue is going to take down Vulcan. I obviously don't agree with this. I found great counter for you in your own post where you showed how Thor absorbs magnetic field from Magneto. Gabriel could manipulate BB's electrons and Warlock's magical energies so there's no reason to think that he won't do same to Magneto. You can see how he effortlesly blocked blast from amped Polaris (Second Magneto) and OHKOed her.

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If somehow Erik manages to kill Vulcan then there's still Monarch who can literally vaporize him throught force field. There's nothing Erik can do to him , he would ultimately fail to hurt Monarch like this :

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See ? Hax doesn't mean a thing when you are facing brickest brick like Cap. And Invisible Woman. Poor Sue , I can imagine how hard she tries to keep herself hidden from big bad bullies. In case if all options are out Monarch can shut down Magneto's powers like he did with Ray (He has same power set and electromagnetic powers like Erik).

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TL;DR

  • Monarch and Vulcan can both deal with Ultron sentries in instant.
  • Internal attacks aren't going to work as my team has resisted it multiple times.
  • Same goes for telepathy.
  • Your team can't hide or cloak (Even telepathically) because my characters can sense their energies.
  • Magneto can't hurt Monarch and his fields can be drained. Making him defenseless and gets one-shotted.
  • If Jean tries to attack Monarch's mind she simultaneously takes battle at astral plane where she loses.
  • Invisible Woman is fodder.
  • My team wins.

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#18 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio

@aqualion0: Nicely done! Make sure to tag me after you post so I can see ASAP.

I should have my post up by the weekend!

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#19 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio

@aqualion0: still working on my post but I'll need a couple more days

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#20 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio

@aqualion0: sorry for the delay. I should have my post up by tomorrow!

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#21 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio

Post #2 - Counters

Alright , this was quite big and delicious post to read. Though there are many problems and issues with it. For example , your perks. Being morals off doesn't give your team actual upper hand. My team consists schizo killer who tried to conquer 51 universes , crazy egoistic psycho who also tried to conquer interdimensional empires and Sue. Despite Susan's kindness when situation needs she's quite ruthless. In other words my team is also going to fight at their fullest. Basic knowledge is cool but not in our battle where my team has tremendous advantage in both , offense and defense.

My characters being morals off is extremely dangerous for you, particularly when Jean and Sue never kill. Now they will be willing to kill and use their powers to their fullest. I never stated that this equates to an advantage over your team.

Having basic knowledge makes a massive difference, especially since I have prep. My team will know who your team is and what they are capable of, and will have time to prepare and strategize. Your team will not know who they are facing, except maybe Vulcan if he sees and recognizes us.

Counters to Magneto

Your entire part of physicals is irrelevant because feats you posted mostly scales from subsonic to MHS and Quicksilver is nowhere near FTL. His only lightspeed and an outlier feat is outrunning radio waves. Monarch has FTL combat speed , Vulcan was keeping pace up with Marvel's main heavy hitters and Susan has reacted to Ultimate QS numerous times. No speed difference.

I'm not claiming that Magneto is faster than your team, but he can at least keep up with them.

As for Quicksilver's feats:

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1) Runs from Tibet to Indonesia and back to Tibet within a few seconds, which is estimated to be about a Mach 5000 speed feat

2) Casually dodges Thor's lightning attack

3) Can look up within a picosecond (one trillionth of a second)

4) Dodges and owns The Living Laser, whose attacks are legit lasers that have consistently been proven to actually travel at the speed of light

So although the radio waves feats is somewhat of an outlier, it isn't terribly inconsistent with some of Quicksilver's high-end feats.

You didn't even bother to mention the other feats I provided, such as reacting to Cannonball, Nightcrawler, Northstar, Mjolnir, and lightning. That doesn't even include all the times he has owned the X-Men and the Avengers, which includes fast opponents such as Captain Marvel, Thor, Iron Man, etc.

Let's draw the line. Magneto had trouble performing planet level feat and you think that he would be able to kill Vulcan? Let alone Monarch. Nevertheless , impressive feat but considering strain and concetration Mags took it's not useful against my team.

It is quite apparent by now that your only strategy will be to downplay my characters without providing any feats whatsoever.

Magneto was pulling an intangible, city-sized bullet moving at light speed and outside of the Solar System, back to Earth, while also physically and psychically shielding himself. Even though it took a lot of effort and concentration, this feat required an insane amount of power, range, skill, and willpower to pull off.

Teambusting? Hah. Vulcan trashed X-Men and Shi'ar imperial guard and Monarch owned most powerful Supermen , Wonder Women , Green Lanterns and 51 Captain Atoms from various earths.

And yet Vulcan got owned by Black Bolt...

As for Monarch, I'm not denying his power, but my team has the hax and strategy to beat him.

Link is dead. Cool , but Monarch has damaged many planetary level beings including an amped Superman Prime who in the same comic run busted earth sized alternate planet and tanked its explosion. Basically , Monarch's damage output far exceeds planetary level. Magneto is not blocking Monarch's blasts.

I just checked, the link works fine...

See, all you have for Monarch is scaling. You provided practically no legit feats of his own. Monarch is a morals off Captain Atom. That's it.

*Casual blast

Nowhere does it suggest or imply that Phoenix's blast was casual...

Internesting word choice when Magneto himself says his shield can't hold any longer and then Thor drains magnetic field from him. This is anti-feat on many levels. I mean I have omega level and god tier energy manipulator while you posted scan where Magneto's field gets nullified via energy absorption.

This isn't current Thor or Magneto. Not only is this something Thor has rarely ever done, but current Magneto is way more powerful than he was back then. You haven't shown Vulcan being able to manipulate magnetic fields.

Doom is shit.

Same goes for Tony.

Excellent counters...

You mean same Havok who got bitched by Vulcan and couldn't even kill him when he was amped by frigging star?

He didn't kill Vulcan because of his morals, not because of a lack of power. And Havok "bitched" Vulcan for most of that fight. But Vulcan is more powerful than Havok, I won't deny that.

Monarch is better. Not to mention Thor oftenly holds back a lot.

"Monarch is better" is a fantastic argument, well played.

Both Thor and She-Hulk have beyond planetary level strength.

Proteus's main weakness is metal and magnetism.

His weakness is metal. No metal was used here. Magneto used his electromagnetism/energy manipulation to destroy a being made of pure energy.

Are you comparing classic Iron Man with my team? Hell , even Sue would be able to tank this.

Classic Iron Man wasn't as powerful, but he still had impressive durability.

I need more context about this feat because Jean/Phoenix seems to be weakened. ''But I though I had no limit!'' this implies something's wrong.

This was an inexperienced Phoenix, but that still doesn't take away from the feat of manipulating the Phoenix's energy.

Main problem is that Celestial is dead and I highly doubt Mags would affect Monarch's armor like this. In addition it's internal life energy which gives Celestials power not armor or exterior. I'm not denying feat is impressive though.

You have yet to show anything proving that Monarch's armour couldn't be affected. It is a metal armour on an opponent, so there is no reason to think Magneto wouldn't control it in some way.

Barely combat applicable. Magneto tries to drop something heavy on my team and Sue stops it with force field or Monarch/Vulcan vaporizes it with single blast.

You haven't shown anything of Ultimate Sue to suggest she can stop something weighing thousands of tons. And anyways, the point of this was to show an average-level feat of his power and skill.

Counters to Jean Grey

Most powerful Green Lanterns and Supermen failed to restrain Monarch. You showed nothing special about her TK besides pushing back/stopping mid and high tier characters which in this case is useless.

And yet you presented zero feats of this, nor did you provide any feats of him resisting TK of Jean's level or above. Being able to restrain Juggernaut, Apocalypse, and Binary with her TK is very impressive, despite your attempts at low-balling. I'd also like to remind you that this is a high-tier tournament, and although Monarch is worth 10 points, he isn't exactly far above high-tier.

There's no need to waste time on shields because only impressive scans you showed were blocking blasts from Stranger and Phoenix Force but actually they aren't that ridiculous as you point out. Stranger's eye beams couldn't KO Toad (street-tier)

You're completely wrong about that:

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Practically kills Toad, and knocks down Juggernaut. And this was a casual blast. Another casual blast owned the Hulk and had enough energy to change the orbit of a planet.

The Stranger has also:

  • Pushed the Moon out of its orbit (link)
  • Split a board belonging to a Herald of Galactus in half, with a very casual blast (link)
  • Was at least 1/3 responsible for staggering IG Thanos (link)

and Phoenix wasn't trying to kill or harm Jean.

Nowhere is it implied or suggested that the Phoenix Force was holding back. It straight up shot out fire at her and was engulfing the entire forest in fire.

Attempting to lowball her shields when they have tanked attacks from The Stranger, Black Bolt, Abomination, Apocalypse, etc. is a laughable strategy.

I win this argument , unless you show me Jean doing something above planetary besides from white hole feat (She can't replicate same and even if she does Monarch is still superior on many ways).

Why couldn't she replicate this feat...?

To quote you from one of your CaVs in order to demonstrate how impressive this feat is:

Yeah , you guessed it correctly , undoubtedly the best showing of Jean Grey which occurred in X-Men Unlimited #13. Let's have a plain breakdown of scans : Binary (Carol Danvers amped with a lot of energy , it's also very important to mention that she wasn't jobber and mid-tier feminazi during her classic days) tries to stabilize star which was prematurely going to supernova while she is inside of frigging White Hole. For starters , White hole is the reverse of a black hole and can not be entered from the outside. Apparently , Jean flies at MFTL speeds (You ask me : ''How do you know that?''. Well , narration says that she is moving at hyperspace which requires at least FTL perception and movement.) , actually enters White Hole and encases Carol in psionic field to cut off her from energies of star. Unfortunately , Binary somehow has been possessed but Jean handles her using TP. Then Surfer blows up core of engine (this engine was the one affecting star) and Jean alongside with Carol gets backlashed out of it. Shockwave alone was so devastating , it was felt throughout the universe. Both women survived it and in addition of that , none of them had a single scratch due to Jean's TK shield.

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The takeaway from this - Jean has FTL+ speed , is capable of creating psi armor/shield which can withstand star level attacks/pressure/explosion and telepathically manipulated casual planet buster character. At first this seems to be an outlier but after seeing other feats , you are probably gonna change your mind and feat itself becomes more legit

Interesting how you play up this feat more than I did when you are representing Jean and yet lowball it when you're facing Jean.

Unfortunately for Jean , Monarch is practically immune to any kind of mind attack. Let's see :

"Practically immune to any kind of mind attack" oh boy, yes, let's see...

Your scans are also entirely out of order from the statements you associated with them.

Resisting basic telepathy while he doesn't have armor on.

Nothing about Jean's TP is basic.

Unaffected by Synapse. Synapse is powerful psychic who easily bested Maxima before this.

Funny, because Maxima has harmed Captain Atom with her psi bolts in the past (link). Also, Synapse is so much of a D-rank villain that he doesn't even have his own Comicvine or Wikia pages. You'll need to provide context and feats as to why he is a powerful psychic and why this is impressive.

Captain Atom also states "I'm more than ready for you this time", suggesting that he didn't do so well against Synapse in their last encounter. He also threatens to have Maxima scramble his brain, which suggests Maxima's telepathy is superior to that of Synapse.

Breaks free from Forlorn's magical mental compulsion. Even Mordru admitted to be inferior to her.

Key word here being "magical". This isn't pure telepathy, it is magic-based.

Gives Voodoo vast information while she tries to attack , instantly overloading her.

Voodoo is a low-rank telepath, Captain Atom was clearly harmed by her attacks, and the only reason he was able to overload her was due to the PIS of being linked to a "data hookup".

Kills Martian Manhunter despite his planet+ level telepathy.

Lol. First of all, J'onn wasn't even using his TP in this instance. Second of all, Captain Atom never killed Martian Manhunter. Not even close.

^above-mentioned feats were occured when Nate didn't have Monarch suit. Now imagine his TP resistance with suit-on.

This is a HUGE generalization. Unless you have proof, you can't assume that having Monarch's suit results in an amp to his telepathic defences.

All these feats are pretty poor examples to demonstrate Captain Atom's telepathic resistance. It is quite generally accepted that his TP defences are lacking. So unless you can show me Captain Atom actually resisting or straight up being immune to TP on Jean's level, that doesn't involve PIS, then I don't see how Jean doesn't absolutely mindrape him.

Counters to "Fodder"

Sue storm is fodder. She regularly fails to contain or hold massively powerful beings like Monarch. Also she gets heavily exhausted and receives nose bleeds after pushing herself to limits. You posted many ''feats'' which turns out to be anti-feats. She only briefly holds Gladiator,Hulk , Thor and main powerhouses whom are always holding back whereas Monarch doesn't and will keep pouring energy beams until her shield breaks.

More downplaying.

If my 616 Sue is fodder, what does that make your Ultimate Sue?

As I demonstrated in my opener, she has held off or blocked Human Torch's supernova, Thanos' Gamma Bomb, a blast from Silver Surfer, and a massive lightning blast from Thor's clone. Her shields also briefly held up against the Incursion, which destroyed multiple universes. These all demonstrate the insane energy durability of her shields.

Her shields have also tanked punches from an angry Black Bolt and Namor, as well as contained Gladiator, Hulk, and Thing. Most impressively, her shields tanked punches from World War Hulk. These all demonstrate the insane blunt force durability of her shields.

That doesn't even include the times she has owned Juggernaut, Hulk, Namor, Thor, Dr Doom, and entire teams of Avengers.

Simply downplaying her feats without providing any actual counters won't do anything for you.

In the vast majority of these cases, her shields only ceased to exist due to her willing them to, and she actually hardly ever gets nosebleeds. In fact, of all the feats I posted for her, there were only 3 where she got a nosebleed: the Incursion, Ragnarok's lightning strike, and World War Hulk. Despite the nosebleeds, she still maintained her shields.

Here Monarch breaks force field that several superheroes couldn't. Same thing goes for Sue's fields.

Unless you provide feats, this force field and Monarch breaking it are irrelevant.

Can't see how old junks are going to pose any threat. Cannon fodder is irrelevant in high-caliber battles. Temporar distraction ? Nope. Cap effortlesly slaughtered numerous extra-dimensional monsters. It's worth mentioning each of them had enough strength to hurt Ion Kyle Rayner.

I fail to see how this is relevant to Sue. And all you keep doing is downplay...

Ultimate Sue should be also able to solo them.

Lol. 616 Sue >>>>> Ultimate Sue by miles

Magneto - Siphoning Energy & Configuring Sentries

Magneto can't fully absorb planet's energy and you are relying on very uneffective ability. He wasn't able to do it until Polaris amped him with her magnetic energies. Solely taking planet's entire energy is simply beyond his power level and using it for offensive purposes isn't happening. Even if he manages he'll burn out quickly as he said.

So you're just going to completely disregard this feat then?

No Caption Provided

He was able to detect that Tony was siphoning off Jupiter's energy, saying he is familiar with the taste of it. This suggests he has done something similar before with Jupiter's magnetic energy. He then siphons off energy from the Sun and goes toe-to-toe against an amped Tony, only practically giving up once he realizes the threat of the approaching Phoenix.

"Burn out quickly" but should have enough time to do what he must...which in our case is beat your team in a fight that won't last more than a minute.

My team obviously has enough firepower to deal with that. Also you previously said that Sentries were for distraction , how the hell Magneto is going to make weapons from nothing? Furthermore they're just scrap metal (literally) and Monarch , Vulcan and Sue all have powerful shields.

I have no doubt that your team can deal with them, but their sole purpose is to serve as a distraction and add some extra pressure to your team and Sue's force fields.

I didn't say he would make weapons, I said he would manipulate their bodies to have nano-edged blades and reinforce their armour. He can also use a couple of them to make armour for himself, Jean, and Sue.

He was able to take the metal of a ship, increase its strength a thousand-fold, and use it to make a wall that was holding back the pressure of a massive storm surge. For reference, the energy output of a storm surge/tsunami is extraordinary, but I won't get into details unless you want me to.

With my team having armour this powerful, which was also strong enough to go toe-to-toe against an amped Iron Man, their natural durability coupled with their force fields will be too much for your team to overcome.

Sue's Invisibility and Jean's TP Cloaking

Vulcan resisted Rachel and I already showed Monarch's TP feats.

And what you showed is nothing compared to what Jean can dish out.

Rachel ≠ Jean. Jean is so much more powerful, and there is context to Vulcan vs. Rachel that you either don't know about or chose to leave out. You also didn't provide any feats.

Another way to notice both of them is to detect their energy signatures. Vulcan has done it in past , he sensed power cells of Shi'ar vessels

Feats?

and Cap is pure quantum being. Quantum energy = chi energy = life-force energy. He also has enhanced sensatory which allows to perceive/feel energy particles down to the subatomic level.

Feats?

This is also a HUGE reach. Because Cap is made of quantum energy, which is somehow the same as chi energy which equates to life force energy, he can automatically detect them? This doesn't translate at all to him being able to detect my invisible team in a combat situation.

I don't know if it was made clear, but her invisibility works against all wavelengths of light, i.e. visible light, infrared light, and ultraviolet light.

https://www.marvel.com/characters/invisible-woman/in-comics/profile
https://www.marvel.com/characters/invisible-woman/in-comics/profile

He also has enhanced sensatory which allows to perceive/feel energy particles down to the subatomic level.

This isn't good enough at all, and he even states that he can't see them but just feel them. With no knowledge of my team and while being assaulted by my team's attacks, how is he going to be able to sense my team?

Internal Attacks

Magical transmutation proves to be useless against Sue. It only transmutes force field and can't affect her.

None of my characters use anything close to magic, let alone transmutation... And she still got owned lol

Captain Atom is immune to Molecule manipulation, as shown by being immune to the energies of Monarch 1, who was killing every other hero on the planet with bolts that transmute organic matter at atomic level.

Again, none of my attacks involve molecular manipulation. They involve physically affecting your body in different ways. This isn't the same.

Black Bolt unleashes his voice (Which could casually bust planets and damage Thanos) and almost vaporizes Vulcan. Later Gabriel literally rebuilds himself by manipulating internal energies and attacks BB.

This is an external force working against Vulcan. All of my attacks are INTERNAL. Big difference.

You've provided 3 useless feats as to why your team could take my team's internal attacks. You'll have to do much better than that.

General Counters

First thing you used is Jean's telepathy and ''instantly shutting down'' Monarch , disputable nonsense . Any hax can be countered with extreme force , in this case with Monarch's overall power. Being able to contend and casually play with Guardian amp SBP (For reference without that amp SBP tanked galaxy level explosion) indicates that he is just that strong to resist planet level hax whether it'll be telepathy , telekinesis , strength , etc. Captain Atom is also quantum elemental , allowing him to enter astral plane - main aspect of Psi stuff.

Raw power isn't all that matters. You can be the most powerful being on Earth, but if you don't have sufficient telepathic resistances, you are still being taken down by a telepathic assault. Your immense power levels have nothing to do with that.

All the feats you provided for Captain Atom's telepathic resistance are pretty damn poor, so you trying to argue that Monarch's insane power output should mean he can contend with a telepathic assault by Jean Grey is ridiculous.

In Captain Atom #43 he faces Nekron (Leader of Black Lantern corps , you can take him as casual star level threat if not solar system/galaxy level. He is certainly superior to Jean Grey in every way) Then he easily drains and beats Nekron. This happened because astral plane is part of Quantum field and once Monarch realises that he is facing strong telepath he would take fight to here. Basically Jean is going to face him in his own realm where her winning chance is zero. If Jean tries to start fighting with her TK she instantly gets vaporized , so you simply don't have anything to counter Monarch.

Despite his vast power, Nekron has practically zero telepathic feats. Even in the scans you presented, it seems more like reality manipulation than actual telepathy, and there was some heavy PIS involved there too.

You haven't presented anything to suggest that Monarch could just pull Jean into the Astral Plane without her allowing it. Based on the telepathic resistance feats you presented so far for Captain Atom, I don't see how Jean doesn't take him out within a few seconds at most.

Also, I'm not sure where you are getting this "if Jean uses TK she instantly gets vaporized" nonsense from...

Next you claim Magneto alongside with Sue is going to take down Vulcan. I obviously don't agree with this. I found great counter for you in your own post where you showed how Thor absorbs magnetic field from Magneto. Gabriel could manipulate BB's electrons and Warlock's magical energies so there's no reason to think that he won't do same to Magneto. You can see how he effortlesly blocked blast from amped Polaris (Second Magneto) and OHKOed her.

All Vulcan did here was shield himself from her attack and punch her out. That isn't impressive.

My team has basic knowledge on your team. They will know that Vulcan can manipulate energy, and they will likely know of a lot of his feats given his history with the X-Men. I never claimed Magneto would attack Vulcan with magnetic energy. Targeting Vulcan with internal attacks isn't something he can deflect or absorb or shield himself from, especially when he won't see the attack coming and he'll be distracted by the Sentries.

If somehow Erik manages to kill Vulcan then there's still Monarch who can literally vaporize him throught force field. There's nothing Erik can do to him , he would ultimately fail to hurt Monarch like this :

Do you even know the context of this scan? This is Omerta, whose mutant power is literallyinvulnerability. Monarch isn't invulnerable, and he has no feats to suggest that internal attacks wouldn't work against him.

See ? Hax doesn't mean a thing when you are facing brickest brick like Cap.

Anyone on CV will tell you that raw power is rarely the biggest factor in a team fight. There are more important things, such as skill, hax, strategy, etc.

And Invisible Woman. Poor Sue , I can imagine how hard she tries to keep herself hidden from big bad bullies.

Dude, you literally have a shittier version of my Sue on your team lol

In case if all options are out Monarch can shut down Magneto's powers like he did with Ray (He has same power set and electromagnetic powers like Erik).

Uhh...not at all lol. Here is The Ray's CV page. He is made of light and controls light. He does not have the same power set and electromagnetic powers as Magneto, not even close.

Monarch and Vulcan can both deal with Ultron sentries in instant.

You haven't shown anything of how they could deal with 200 Ultron Sentries in an instant. The Sentries won't be packed in a tight group for you to attack; many will be flying, shooting at you, getting in close, etc. And with perfect teamwork, there is zero chance you go for an AoE and risk killing your team.

Internal attacks aren't going to work as my team has resisted it multiple times.

You showed nothing of them resisting internal attacks of my team's caliber and variety.

Same goes for telepathy.

The telepathic resistance feats you presented were poor.

Your team can't hide or cloak (Even telepathically) because my characters can sense their energies.

Sensing energy is so vague and not good enough to prove you can detect my team through two means of cloaking.

Magneto can't hurt Monarch and his fields can be drained. Making him defenseless and gets one-shotted.

Monarch isn't invulnerable in the slightest.

If Jean tries to attack Monarch's mind she simultaneously takes battle at astral plane where she loses.

Providing a single example of Captain Atom in the Astral Plane against a featless telepath isn't enough.

Invisible Woman is fodder.

If fodder is blocking attacks from WWH and Silver Surfer, incapping teams of Avengers on more than one occasion, and owning characters like Juggernaut, Hulk, Thor, and Dr Doom, then sure. But then that makes your Ultimate Sue even more fodder.

My team wins.

Doubtful.

Conclusion

  • The majority of your strategy involves downplaying and low-balling my team without providing any concrete feats and arguments to back your team up.
  • You made several statements without providing any feats for proof
  • You made several false and baseless claims, such as Monarch having strong telepathic resistances and your team being able to resist my team's internal attacks, without providing any real feats to back them up
  • You have no real way to detect my team through two different measures of cloaking
  • You have no way of dealing with all the Sentries all at once without resorting to AoE and harming your own team, which won't happen since you have perfect teamwork
  • You have no way of resisting Jean's telepathy or my team's internal attacks hitting you all at once
  • Raw power means nothing when you don't know how to use it; my team's perks, strategy, and hax allow them to take your team out despite your team's superior power
  • My team completely destroys your team within a few seconds

Your move.

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#22 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by emperorthanos- (16371 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by Aqualion0 (1717 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by emperorthanos- (16371 posts) - - Show Bio
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#28 Posted by emperorthanos- (16371 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: @aqualion0: Deadline is approaching. Unless you guys think you can get two post in two days I'd rather just open for votes now.

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#29 Posted by Aqualion0 (1717 posts) - - Show Bio
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#30 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Edited by Jacthripper (14967 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: I give my vote to @geekryan.

Reasoning

I'm not going to lie, from the beginning, I was not a big fan of the debating style of @aqualion0. The beginning was decent enough, but then he makes a few major mistakes. The first is that he made some very large generalizations in his plan of attack, he made generalizations on the strength of his characters based on scaling. He leaned very heavily on the implied power, rather than explaining how the feats supported his capability to win the fight. At the same time, he lowballed his opponent's characters. He never showed an adequate defense to telepathy, he never showed a defense to the suit being disrupted, he never even made a final post.

On the other hand, @geekryan supported his statements and pointed out flaws in his opponent's strategy. He provided logical avenues where his team would win. He didn't just say "My team is moar better." He debunked the feats on his opponents part, and I thought it particularly significant that he quoted his own opponent on Jean Grey's power and speed.

In the end, it became pretty obvious that one debater was just lowballing his opponent and highballing his own team, while the other debater focused on logical ways that his team could win the battle.

An Aside

@emperorthanos- I personally would discount every vote that say that aqualion0 wins because his team is more powerful. That's subjective, and it's their opinion of the characters deciding the fight, not their analysis of the debate. I would also largely agree on Monarch solo'ing the fight if this were a battle thread (except for Jean using telepathy). But it's not a battle thread. This is a tournament, so I hope you choose the better debater, not the most powerful team.

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#35 Posted by Ashrym (2877 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: gets my vote. The feats presented backed up the arguments given better than the feats presented by his opponent, who's argument seemed more targetted to downplaying geekryan's team than supporting his own arguments.

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#36 Posted by Chronicplane (9023 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll give this a read.

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#37 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17630 posts) - - Show Bio

@aqualion0: Gets my vote. Simply put his team was just on another level, literally. It seemed Geeky brought a high tier team to a team buster brawl. He was also able to adequately address Geeky’s team which meant the opposite did not happen

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#39 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18322 posts) - - Show Bio

@aqualion0: Gets my vote. Simply put his team was just on another level, literally. It seemed Geeky brought a high tier team to a team buster brawl. He was also able to adequately address Geeky’s team which meant the opposite did not happen

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#40 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking: Can you provide further reasoning rather than just quoting a very basic vote belonging to someone else? Would be much appreciated.

@aqualion0: Gets my vote. Simply put his team was just on another level, literally. It seemed Geeky brought a high tier team to a team buster brawl. He was also able to adequately address Geeky’s team which meant the opposite did not happen

I mean, the focus should be on the debating itself, not the characters. What about Aqualion's arguments did you feel adequately addressed my arguments, and what did I fail to argue against his team? Thanks for voting.

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#41 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17630 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: It’s about the characters. Half the battle is picking your team.

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#42 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: It’s about the characters. Half the battle is picking your team.

If it was all about characters, then every debate would be decided by which character is stronger and not how the arguments/counters were presented. Superman would always beat Batman, regardless of things like strategy and prep.

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#43 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17630 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: Which character is tronger is subjective. If you prove that Batman is stronger than he is. If you can’t convince me that he is stronger than he isn’t.

I don’t care if you argued Batman like a god, if you can’t prove he wins then you weren’t convincing.

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#44 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by worldbreakerhulk (378 posts) - - Show Bio

aqualion0's team. Simply cuz raw power and higher attack potency on it's side.

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#46 Posted by emperorthanos- (16371 posts) - - Show Bio

@aqualion0: @geekryan: Very close match but Aqulian goes through with a 3:2 victory. Thanks for debating Geek.

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#47 Edited by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: 2 days of votes? That’s it?

Chronicplane was going to vote.

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#48 Posted by geekryan (4501 posts) - - Show Bio

@jacthripper:

An Aside

@emperorthanos- I personally would discount every vote that say that aqualion0 wins because his team is more powerful. That's subjective, and it's their opinion of the characters deciding the fight, not their analysis of the debate. I would also largely agree on Monarch solo'ing the fight if this were a battle thread (except for Jean using telepathy). But it's not a battle thread. This is a tournament, so I hope you choose the better debater, not the most powerful team

I only saw this now. Thank you!

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#49 Posted by Chronicplane (9023 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: I give my vote to @geekryan.

Reasoning

I'm not going to lie, from the beginning, I was not a big fan of the debating style of @aqualion0. The beginning was decent enough, but then he makes a few major mistakes. The first is that he made some very large generalizations in his plan of attack, he made generalizations on the strength of his characters based on scaling. He leaned very heavily on the implied power, rather than explaining how the feats supported his capability to win the fight. At the same time, he lowballed his opponent's characters. He never showed an adequate defense to telepathy, he never showed a defense to the suit being disrupted, he never even made a final post.

On the other hand, @geekryan supported his statements and pointed out flaws in his opponent's strategy. He provided logical avenues where his team would win. He didn't just say "My team is moar better." He debunked the feats on his opponents part, and I thought it particularly significant that he quoted his own opponent on Jean Grey's power and speed.

In the end, it became pretty obvious that one debater was just lowballing his opponent and highballing his own team, while the other debater focused on logical ways that his team could win the battle.

An Aside

@emperorthanos- I personally would discount every vote that say that aqualion0 wins because his team is more powerful. That's subjective, and it's their opinion of the characters deciding the fight, not their analysis of the debate. I would also largely agree on Monarch solo'ing the fight if this were a battle thread (except for Jean using telepathy). But it's not a battle thread. This is a tournament, so I hope you choose the better debater, not the most powerful team.

Basically all of this for me.

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#50 Edited by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2567 posts) - - Show Bio

As for Monarch , he literally tanks bullrush from bloodlusted Superboy Prime , easily overcomes and takes all of his attacking attempts. At the end of their physical fight (before Monarch really starts fighting seriously) Atom is seemingly unscratched. What makes feat more impressive is that - this is not normal Superboy Prime we all know (Definition of teambuster) , this is Guardian amped version which basically makes him galaxy/universal level threat.

So, uhhhh, Odin ain't universal right? I vote for Geekryan by virtue of not trying to go over limits.

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