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#1 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15516 posts) - - Show Bio

It's time for another High Tier PYP, here is round 1

@streak619

Characters:

  • Jin Mori.
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Perks:

  • -Mind/Soul immunity.7
  • -Wolverine regen.5
  • -teleportation.3
No Caption Provided

@higherpower

Characters

  • Gog - 10
  • Tetsuo - 2
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Perks

  • Mind/Soul immunity - 7
  • 2 more character points - 5
  • Invisibility (Gog) - 2
  • 1 hr of prep - 1

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. Time Jumping, remnants, speeding up ones own time is allowed. Other forms of time manip is banned.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Power Copying/stealing.
  8. No Summons, constructs or any other fodder stronger than 616 Bleeding Edge Iron Man.
  9. Summons are limited to 200
  10. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote is unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet inside a Solar System like others, with no other people on it except for the fighters.

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#2 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18002 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#3 Posted by Darthjhawk (5124 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh this is going to be wild. Tag me.

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#4 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower: Gonna have to ask you to start, no idea who your characters are.

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#5 Posted by Chimeroid (8974 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: The person in the Gog image is the Old God Gog from the Third World. I don't think that is he he had in mind when he chose Gog. Otherwise, tag for votes :)

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#6 Edited by HigherPower (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

Me debate against Jin? Cool, this will be an interesting change of pace.

@streak619 I might take a while, but alright.

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#7 Posted by shirso (3247 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#8 Posted by HitTheAssasin (7315 posts) - - Show Bio

Mori vs Gog? I smell a blitz and I wonder how HP will deal with it. T4V.

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#9 Posted by geekryan (3177 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#10 Edited by HigherPower (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619:

Character Intros

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On a trip to Africa, missionary William Matthews discovered the shrine of the Third World Gog. Gog bestowed upon him his powers, and upon receiving them, William took up his name and staff and became one of the most formidable villains of the JSA.

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Tetsuo is a psychopathic psychic who's abilities are both a blessing and a curse. That said, he's more or less a non-factor here, since Jin has enough raw strength to pretty much ignore his TK and your mind immunity perk protects you from his TP. Now, suis moi..

Opening Argument

Jin tends to start fights by blitzing his opponent. That's fine and dandy, but he can't put down Gog without using full 250k limit removers—a technique that he's guaranteed not to open with nor resort to for a fairly long time.

I say this because Gog's durability is completely bonkers. One of his lower end feats can be seen in the first issue of Mark Waid's The Kingdom, in which, upon reaching the afterlife, several Superman pool together their telescopic vision in order to pierce the time barrier and view the time stream. What they find on July 7, 2031 is Gog indulging in his routine torture of Earth-22 Superman. Interesting enough, they are on the planet Krypton, and Superman is strapped BDSM style to a bomb that was invented by none other than Gog himself. The bomb (who's explosion goes down to the molecular level) is detonated and completely obliterates Krypton as a result. Despite being in point blank vicinity, Gog was seen wholly unscathed from the planet's explosion a moment later.

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This feat also doubles as some nifty transmutation resistance, since the bomb had the express effect of transforming every cell in Superman's body into living Kryptonite [The Kingdom (1999) #1]:

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An easy way to one-shot Jin would be to use my prep time and reconstruct the same bomb that was seen here. Similar to Gog, Jin would no-sell the force generated from the explosion itself—however, unlike Gog, he is devoid of feats to resist it's planetary transmutation effects. I say planetary because all the rocks and debris from Krypton (in both the scan of the explosion itself and the scan containing Supes) were depicted to be near identical in appearance to the Kryptonite on Superman's body. Additionally, the explosion from the planet itself was green, despite Krypton being colorized as black and molten orange before. Not to mention, after Gog introduced himself, he explicitly states that the bomb's detonation goes down to the molecular level, proving that it was also intended to affect molecules.

This is made more impressive by the fact Earth-22 Superman is widely known to be superior in every aspect to his Post-Crisis counterpart, who has actually shown resistance to transmutation before on occasion. One of these occasions took place in The Brave and The Bold (2007) #11, wherein Superman was exposed to the full brunt of a cosmic radiation storm; one which was stated by Mxy to have transmuting properties that "twist and transform" everything it touches on an "atomic level".

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Revisiting the topic of Gog's durability, in the The Kingdom (1999) #2, Gog follows a band of heroes into a restaurant in downtown Metropolis. The heroes amp each other by arming themselves with numerous high-tier cosmic weapons, including [but not limited to] 3 green lantern rings, before ganging up on Gog and blasting him simultaneously.. to no avail, of course.

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In fact, throughout the entire miniseries, Gog never sustained any lasting damage from any attack he received. The only two instances where he procures injury at all was when Batman shined the Phantom Zone Projector on his arm, and when Wonder Woman stabbed him with her sword—both of which was petty damage that only served to anger him.

Gog's durability isn't just limited to his outsides either. His internal durability is also immensely tough, and we see evidence of this in Justice Society of America Vol. 3 #15, where Obsidian (a teambuster level character in his own right) goes shadow form and enters Gog through his mouth for possession. After Obsidian blinds him, Gog responds by taking his Power Staff and firing a blast down his own throat, forcibly exorcising Obsidian...

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Even ignoring the fact that Gog's power staff is capable of straight up one-shotting Kingdom Come Superman, disemboweling Mxy, blatantly ripping a hole through the fabric of Hypertime, and, on most occurrences, simply fodderizing multiple heroes, this feat is impressive because he was able to curb the offences of Obsidian. Obsidian can inhabit things down to their basic particles (credit for this scan goes @sy8000)

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In JSA Vol. 1 (1999) #8, Obsidian effortlessly no-sells an attack from and one-shots Ian Karkull...

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...the same Ian who, using Obsidian as a vessel, was able to single-handedly take on the combined forces of the JSA with shadow constructs and possession. The JSA roster at the time most remarkably included Hourman One Million (who can hold his own against Amazo) and Doctor Fate [JSA Vol. 1 (1999) #7-8].

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Immediately thereafter, Obsidian spreads his darkness to engulf the entire planet in the Shadowlands and makes every human on it see their worst fears.

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These feats solidify Todd being in the tier I mentioned him to be in earlier. Now let's talk about Gog's own offensive capabilities. But first, here's the roster of characters he fought when he went against Kingdom Come JSA + JLA:

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Notable members include KC Supes, Alan Scott, Obsidian, Jay Garrick, Power Girl, Hourman (Rick Tyler) Hawkman, Starman, Dr Mid-Nite, Citizen Steel, Wildcat, Stargirl, Damage, and Mr. Terrific, among others. Alan Scott in particular (who Gog also embarrassed in The Kingdom) is significantly superior to Obsidian, who as you've seen can one-shot a teambuster level character (Ian Karkull) who solo'd the JLA, which included Hector Hall and Matthew Tyler. In JSA Vol. 1 (1999) #9, after being temporarily overwhelmed by Obsidian's powers, Alan goes all out, transforms until he's Obsidian's size, and fires an energy blast so powerful that it one-shots Obsidian (to the point where it took him several months to regenerate) and pretty much dwarfs the Earth.

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Gog was able to take on both Alan and Obsidian in addition to every other character on the aforementioned roster, proving his status as a very high end teambuster to possible low-skyfather beyond a shadow of doubt. The fight was like an entire issue long, so in order to not scan bomb I'll just link it [Justice Society of America Vol. 3 (2007) #14-15]

https://imgur.com/a/j9Lk8

William Matthews only lost due to the unexpected intervention of Old God Gog, who took his power back from him, killing him in the process. Now that we've covered durability and power, I think I should note that, while Jin is faster than Gog, he's not fast enough to blitz him without limit removers or speed mode. On an opponent he has no knowledge on, he wouldn't open with either. And base Jin should be in Gog's ballpark of speed, considering Gog reacted to and intercepted Hunter (a time traveler and member of the Linear Men) who at the time was moving in-between the span of nanoseconds. (The Kingdom #1)

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It should also be acknowledged that Hunter's presence is completely undetectable when he phase-shifts in between units of time, making the feat of Gog reacting to and tagging him even more impressive.

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Gog's FTL speed was displayed earlier in the same issue, where he reacts to and tags a speeding Kingdom Come Flash.

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So he should really have no problem reacting to and tagging Jin at the beginning of the fight. I'll get into Gog's other abilities in my following posts, but for now this suffice as an opener.

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#11 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio

This ought to be fun.

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#13 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17092 posts) - - Show Bio

Rematch time! T4V

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#14 Edited by TheTopContender (185 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower

Are Gog's time clones banned as a result of these battle parameters?

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#15 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15516 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Edited by HigherPower (11966 posts) - - Show Bio
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#17 Posted by TheTopContender (185 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by blackpantherisb (6373 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#19 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio

Jin Mori.

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Important General Information

Credits to HTA, this was a good idea.

Considering most people here don't know God of Highschool, I'll just copy and paste this.

In this section I'll quickly be going over some important terminology and special aspects:

  • Jin Mo-Ri:The reincarnation of the Monkey King Sun-Wukong and the main protagonist of the story. Planet+ level and FTL in Monkey King mode, Star level and MFTL with full limit removers, extremely skilled combatant.
  • Mori Hui:Jin's substantially weaker clone, who takes over his role for some 80 chapters of the story and has his own personality, extremely skilled combatant.
  • Han Dae-Wi:Best friend of the protagonist, the next Jade Emperor who inherits all of the King's power, all around nice guy, extremely skilled combatant.
  • Jaecheondaeseong:Korean word for "Monkey King", the characters in my scans may refer to Jin as this a few times here and there.
  • Nox:The organisation created and led by the King.
  • Ultio R:The King's biological son, main antagonist of the 5th part of GoH, incredibly powerful, has Tam( a type of demon, if you want) implanted in his body.
  • Yeoui:The weapon used by Jin Mo-Ri, it can expand and contract at will and weighs more than Mars.
  • Geundoowun:Thundercloud used by Jin Mo-Ri, country+ sized, can be used to travel or to shoot thunderbolts at people.
  • King Uma:One of the kings of Oraeguk(planet of the monsters), sworn brother to Jaecheondaeseong, pretty damn strong, a woman, skilled fighter. Oh, and she's also a Cow(basically, anyway).
  • National Treasure:Especially important and powerful weapons inside of the GoH-verse, almost all hyped and powerful weapons are national treasures.
  • The Six:The group of people that were considered the strongest in Korea 17 years before the start of the the series, all very powerful and respected warriors, also very skilled in martial arts.
  • Bishops:The highest rank inside of the organisation Nox, a fully powered Bishop in their primordial state required 3 of "The Six" to just barely defeat them.
  • Borrowed Power:Some people form contracts with Gods, allowing them to borrow some of their powers, which means that they essentially get access to a new, superhuman power.

Lastly, I would like to give credit to both @hittheassasin and @higherpower for a lot of the scans I've used. My opener was wiped twice and the third time I decided to partake from their openers on Mori Hui and Jin Mori.

Equipment and weapons.

Yeoui:

-Weight:

Yeoui's weight is just ridiculous. A feat that depicts how heavy it is would be when Uriel, a goddess, ripped her arms trying to lift it:

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Chapter 288

Context:

Uriel was temporarily able to stop and lift Mars as it approached Earth:

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Chapter 283

There are two things that make this feat more impressive than it already is:

  • Earth was approaching at extremely high velocities, do Uriel not only managed tto overwhelm the gravitational force due to Earth but also Mars' inherent kinetic energy, which is a lot more impressive than it sounds.
  • Uriel was in phase two when she tried lifting Yeoui, which is much superior to the form that stopped Mars.

From all of this, we can infer that Yeoui is massively heavier than Mars, which is putting it mildly

conclusion: Yeoui's weight is high planet+.

-Expansion speed and striking:

The speed of Yeoui's expansion is extremely fast. Way faster than Magneto and Thor hope

One of it's best feats comes from when it expanded from the moon to the Earth before an extremely speed projectile could travel an inch:

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Now even if I criminally lowball the speed of those red projectiles, the expansion speed still amounts MFTL.

There is more:

In the same scene, as it was travelling down, it vaporised countless angels known as Nephilims without even touching them, with just pure speed:

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Chapter 108

Context:

A single Nephilim angel was durable enough to tank the explosion of 567 nuclear warheads, (amped by magic) in addition to a live meteorite that dwarfed the surrounding city.

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One can imagine how much energy Yeoui was expanding with, since it vaporised countless of those with just expansion, without even making contact with them.

Lastly:

Yeoui almost destroyed a planet by simply expanding:

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Chapter 210

I'm sure this seems tame in comparison to actually destroying a planet, however the only reason he didn't destroy it was because the last seven floors were extremely firm and strong and were guarded by some of the most powerful creatures in the universe, as confirmed twice:

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Do not that this planet had 9993 floors all of which were far more durable than normal rock and were protected by creatures that got more powerful the deeper you go, so destroying all of that is far more harder than a normal planet.

Conclusion: Yeoui's expansion speed is MFTL whereas it's striking power is at the very minimum planet+ in potency.

Nimbus Cloud:

This is a basically a cloud that Mori can summon anywhere. He mainly uses it for high speed interstellar travel, though occasionally he can use it defensively as a shield.

His cloud was strong enough to nullify the shock from FCP's Warhammer, which was stated by bystander to be strong enough to shatter the Sage Realm into pieces

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So it's durability is easily super planet+. It grants great defense.

Physical stats

Strength:

Jin can lift Yeoui quite casually, putting him at high planet+ lifting strength. As for his striking strength:

Jin punched Natak hard enough to jet stream a blast of air pressure into space, spreading across a planetary continent.

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While in base, without any power ups, he was able to match Sujin's right flamingo with a Hwechook that created a shockwave that scaled to planetary

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666: Satan absorbed the Sun's corona and compressed it into a laser beam, and Jin dispels it with a single kick.

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chapter 291

Durability:

Jin has the durability to tank whatever Gog throws at him. Some of his best feats would be:

No selling a planetary nova.

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^ The planet about to explode:

Jin tanks the explosion in BASE form:

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He also no-sold the collision of two planets at what could only be FTL speeds:

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Thus Jin has planetary + durability.

Speed:

Mori was fast enough to blitz the prince, kicking him 3 times over with third stance Hwechook before he could react

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context:

Natak was able to dodge the extension of Yeoui to his face (giving him MFTL reaction speeds)

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Scaling to Jaecheongdaeseong mode and Jeabongchim, Mori will legit run circles around Gog.

Counters; Opening strategy.

Jin tends to start fights by blitzing his opponent. That's fine and dandy, but he can't put down Gog without using full 250k limit removers—a technique that he's guaranteed not to open with nor resort to for a fairly long time.

I'll address the former part once I get to your speed feats. As for the latter, I've said it before and I'll say it again, don't make hasty generalisations. You take what a character did in one situation and then argue the notion that he will do the same in pretty much every situation, which is fallacious for many reasons. In this particular instance, you claim he will not use Jeabongchim x 250k early based off of his fight against Satan where he used it in the conclusion of the fight. To prove my point, let us reexamine that scene

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Chapter 292.

Scan 1, 2, 3: Satan goes on making clones that can go on to infinity.

Scan4: Jin realises how powerful Satan is, decides that ordinary moves aren't enough to deal eith Satan.

Scan5: Jin immediatly uses Jeabongchim x 250k.

He used jeabongchim the moment he realised he couldn't effetively counter the hax, from this we can infer; that if the situation demands it, Mori is very much willing to use Jeabongchim x 250k. It is thus in-character for Mori to use Jeabongchim should the need or situation demanding its use ever arise.

I say this because Gog's durability is completely bonkers. One of his lower end feats can be seen in the first issue of Mark Waid's The Kingdom, in which, upon reaching the afterlife, several Superman pool together their telescopic vision in order to pierce the time barrier and view the time stream. What they find on July 7, 2031 is Gog indulging in his routine torture of Earth-22 Superman. Interesting enough, they are on the planet Krypton, and Superman is strapped BDSM style to a bomb that was invented by none other than Gog himself. The bomb (who's explosion goes down to the molecular level) is detonated and completely obliterates Krypton as a result. Despite being in point blank vicinity, Gog was seen wholly unscathed from the planet's explosion a moment later.

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This feat also doubles as some nifty transmutation resistance, since the bomb had the express effect of transforming every cell in Superman's body into living Kryptonite [The Kingdom (1999) #1]:

I see nothing 'bonkers' about this feat. Considering Jin has planetary durability in base form. The only thing impressive is the transmutation durability required to tank this bomb.

An easy way to one-shot Jin would be to use my prep time and reconstruct the same bomb that was seen here. Similar to Gog, Jin would no-sell the force generated from the explosion itself—however, unlike Gog, he is devoid of feats to resist it's planetary transmutation effects. I say planetary because all the rocks and debris from Krypton (in both the scan of the explosion itself and the scan containing Supes) were depicted to be near identical in appearance to the Kryptonite on Superman's body. Additionally, the explosion from the planet itself was green, despite Krypton being colorized as black and molten orange before. Not to mention, after Gog introduced himself, he explicitly states that the bomb's detonation goes down to the molecular level, proving that it was also intended to affect molecules.

You'd be right, if you weren't wrong about a few things:

  • Time required to make the bomb: The time required to make the bomb, and fully functional at that, is never specified. So why are you assuming that it is an hour?(Since that is how much prep time you have). What evidence do you have for the notion that the bomb can be made in an hour?
  • Out of character move: This strategy of yours would be out of character for many reasons:
    • It was stated in The Kingdom #1 that Gog had murdered thousands of supermen across various instances in time. Which means, that out of all the times Gog killed Supes, he used the time bomb only once(on panel atleast). The fact that he used it only once in a thousand times tells you that it is not his go-to or standard move or something he will attempt immediately.
    • The second reason this would be the fact that the purpose of the bomb is primarily torture and not death. This is proven by the fact that it takes thousand years for the bomb to kill the victim. Since Gog's goal is to kill Jin and not torture him only for him to die a thousand years later, the bomb is most definitely not a go-to option. Yes you can make the argument that Gog can oneshot him while he is getting transmuted. However there most definitely far more efficient options than a bomb that is meant for torture.
    • Lastly, the main reason he made that bomb was to torture Superman physically as well as mentally. He made the bomb recreate the explosion of Krypton because his victim was a kryptonian. Meaning he is more unlikely to use this against anyone who isn't Superman.

Revisiting the topic of Gog's durability, in the The Kingdom (1999) #2, Gog follows a band of heroes into a restaurant in downtown Metropolis. The heroes amp each other by arming themselves with numerous high-tier cosmic weapons, including [but not limited to] 3 green lantern rings, before ganging up on Gog and blasting him simultaneously.. to no avail, of course.

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In fact, throughout the entire miniseries, Gog never sustained any lasting damage from any attack he received. The only two instances where he procures injury at all was when Batman shined the Phantom Zone Projector on his arm, and when Wonder Woman stabbed him with her sword—both of which was petty damage that only served to anger him.

You're gonna have to provide context to this feat. You can't draw any conclusions from it just by leaving it the way it is.

Gog's durability isn't just limited to his outsides either. His internal durability is also immensely tough, and we see evidence of this inJustice Society of America Vol. 3 #15, where Obsidian (a teambuster level character in his own right) goes shadow form and enters Gog through his mouth for possession. After Obsidian blinds him, Gog responds by taking his Power Staff and firing a blast down his own throat, forcibly exorcising Obsidian...

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It'd be great if you could post the succeeding scans for this scene, I'm not entirely convinced.

And base Jin should be in Gog's ballpark of speed, considering Gog reacted to and intercepted Hunter (a time traveler and member of the Linear Men) who at the time was moving in-between the span of nanoseconds. (The Kingdom #1)

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It should also be acknowledged that Hunter's presence is completely undetectable when he phase-shifts in between units of time, making the feat of Gog reacting to and tagging him even more impressive.

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Gog's FTL speed was displayed earlier in the same issue, where he reacts to and tags a speeding Kingdom Come Flash.

No, it doesn't make Gog's feat more impressive considering Obsidian specified that he it was a nanosecond and not an attosecond. Which puts him at LS or at best FTL, which is nowhere near enough to outspeed even base Mori much less jaecheongdaeseong mode or Jeabongchim or both.

Further more, debunking all your scaling is an explicit statement about Gog's combat speed in The Kingdom #1:

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Speed of light, which is nowhere near fast enough to keep up with base Jin, much less any of his amps.

Conclusion.

  • Time bomb strategy ain't working.
  • Jin's stats are more than enough to oneshot, blitz and no sell Gog and his attacks.
  • Jin has crazy regen so Gog would need to oneshot every cell in his body, in order to truly kill him.
  • Jin has teleportation, making him that much more of a menace to deal with.
  • Jin wins.
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#20 Posted by HigherPower (11966 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Edited by HigherPower (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619:

Counters

A couple quick things about a feat you presented.

Jin has the durability to tank whatever Gog throws at him. Some of his best feats would be:

No selling a planetary nova.

^ The planet about to explode:

Jin tanks the explosion in BASE form:

We never saw Jin no-sell that. We know he was in the explosion, but we never see what happened immediately after the Sage Realm exploded. We do know that he survived it while in base while weakened, and that the explosion possibly sent him to another solar system (?). But the explosion itself took place at the end of chapter/episode 166, and we don't actually see Jin again until episode 207 after some notable time (like months) had passed. He could have been KO'd for all anyone knows.

Rebuttals

I'll address the former part once I get to your speed feats. As for the latter, I've said it before and I'll say it again, don't make hasty generalisations. You take what a character did in one situation and then argue the notion that he will do the same in pretty much every situation, which is fallacious for many reasons. In this particular instance, you claim he will not use Jeabongchim x 250k early based off of his fight against Satan where he used it in the conclusion of the fight. To prove my point, let us reexamine that scene

He used jeabongchim the moment he realised he couldn't effetively counter the hax, from this we can infer; that if the situation demands it, Mori is very much willing to use Jeabongchim x 250k. It is thus in-character for Mori to use Jeabongchim should the need or situation demanding its use ever arise.

And this is why reading is essential. I never said that Jin wouldn't use limit removers in a fight, just that he wouldn't open with them and probably wouldn't resort to them for a fair amount of time. This statement doesn't counter that at all, but rather, it reaffirms it. You say Jin will use limit removers when the situation demands it, but that's just my point. He didn't use it when Satan was beating the ever-loving-shit out of him after punching him from Earth's orbit to the Sun...

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And Satan smacked him silly. Like, to the point he was mocking Jin for how badly he morphed his face with his punches.

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Now Jin ate all of his blows, but that's besides the point. He didn't use full limit removers until Satan's "infinite" cloning came out. And it was later revealed that 17 years after his battle with Satan, Jin's body is still suffering major repercussions from using full limit removers:

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In the last scan, Jin comments that his whole body was ruined from full jeabongchim... he's still suffering from the effects of using it, and Jin and Satan's fight was 17 years before he made this comment. Because of this, 250k limit removers seems to be more of a last ditch effort right now than anything else. He most definitely will not start the fight with it, but by the time he realizes Gog is a major threat it'd be too late.

Time required to make the bomb: The time required to make the bomb, and fully functional at that, is never specified. So why are you assuming that it is an hour?(Since that is how much prep time you have). What evidence do you have for the notion that the bomb can be made in an hour?

A valid counter. The bomb was constructed off-panel and Gog was time traveling all through that arc, so it's near impossible to deduce exactly how much time he took to make it. Still, he was the one who enabled the bomb with it's transmutation properties, and William Matthews received his abilities and power from Old God Gog who has demonstrated transmutation multiple times. Take Justice Society of America Vol. 3 (2007) #18 for example, where we see Gog turn a couple of guys into trees.

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And in JSA Kingdom Come Special : Magog, Gog transmutes a group of terrorists into water and feeds them into a river.

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I also think it's pretty obvious that Gog turning Superman into Kyrptonite is akin to Old Gog God turning Jay Garrick into pure speed force in Justice Society of America Vol. 3 (2007) #18.

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By all accounts of empirical evidence, a composite Gog wouldn't need the bomb to transmute Jin into something else.

It was stated in The Kingdom #1 that Gog had murdered thousands of supermen across various instances in time. Which means, that out of all the times Gog killed Supes, he used the time bomb only once(on panel atleast). The fact that he used it only once in a thousand times tells you that it is not his go-to or standard move or something he will attempt immediately.

Being a go-to move isn't a requirement when talking about prep. Lack of knowledge on what to prep for is the only thing you can argue here, and it doesn't change the outcome of the fight.

The second reason this would be the fact that the purpose of the bomb is primarily torture and not death. This is proven by the fact that it takes thousand years for the bomb to kill the victim. Since Gog's goal is to kill Jin and not torture him only for him to die a thousand years later, the bomb is most definitely not a go-to option. Yes you can make the argument that Gog can oneshot him while he is getting transmuted. However there most definitely far more efficient options than a bomb that is meant for torture.

Gog doesn't need to kill Jin. Victory is by death, KO or incapacitation. And transmutation would definitely incap Jin as far as anyone knows.

Lastly, the main reason he made that bomb was to torture Superman physically as well as mentally. He made the bomb recreate the explosion of Krypton because his victim was a kryptonian. Meaning he is more unlikely to use this against anyone who isn't Superman.

Fair enough, but this doesn't mean it would be out of character for Gog to make the bomb. It just means he's less likely to make it against an opponent he has no knowledge on. Not that he needs the bomb anyway.

You're gonna have to provide context to this feat. You can't draw any conclusions from it just by leaving it the way it is.

He no-sold the combined assault of a dozen amped heroes. I think that's a pretty clear cut teambuster/transcendent level durability feat.

It'd be great if you could post the succeeding scans for this scene, I'm not entirely convinced.

I literally linked the entire fight in my post. And I'm not even sure what there is to be "unconvinced" about...

No, it doesn't make Gog's feat more impressive considering Obsidian specified that he it was a nanosecond and not an attosecond.

What? Obsidian didn't say anything. And I don't think the unit of time is what makes him undetectable or not, considering Hunter's appearance was the exact same in both instances. He was transparent.

Which puts him at LS or at best FTL, which is nowhere near enough to outspeed even base Mori much less jaecheongdaeseong mode or Jeabongchim or both.

Moving in-between the lapse of nanoseconds is definitely an FTL feat. Hunter was operating in a shorter time-frame than nanoseconds, and Gog spotted and tagged him before he could evade or react, making him even faster. Gog doesn't necessarily have to be faster than Jin, but he's incontrovertibly fast enough to keep up and be able land hits due to this feat being concrete and quantifiable (and thus having more weight).

Further more, debunking all your scaling is an explicit statement about Gog's combat speed in The Kingdom #1:

Speed of light, which is nowhere near fast enough to keep up with base Jin, much less any of his amps.

This is a farcical counter-argument, mainly because that statement doesn't debunk Gog's speed in any way. Raymond was telling Nightstar not to take a shot at Gog because Gog was holding Clark and Diana's baby, and that he was capable of placing the baby in between them at the speed of light for a shield. He then said, in the same scan you posted, that in order to attack Gog they would need someone faster—aka faster than the speed of light.

As if on cue, KC Flash is shown speeding towards Gog on the page immediately after, and Gog casually reacts to him and blasts him with his staff.

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This is a clear cut by-the-books FTL speed feat, for both combat and reactions. Ray's statement only tells us that Gog is capable of moving at the speed of light, which he proved to be true by demonstrating FTL speed on more than one occasion. It's like me saying Jin can move at the speed of light. Wouldn't you say that's true? Of course, since he's moved faster right? In order to achieve FTL speed you have to pass the speed of light first. Someone pointing out that Gog can operate at light speed doesn't mean that that is the limit of his speed, especially since he has way faster feats.

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#22 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15516 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15516 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619:

Final reminder. I will give you till the end of this weekend. Or I will force to votes.

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#25 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio

Counters

And this is why reading is essential. I never said that Jin wouldn't use limit removers in a fight, just that he wouldn't open with them and probably wouldn't resort to them for a fair amount of time.

Which is exactly what I was countering. I meant to show that he would be willing if the situation demanded it(regardless of the age of the battle) but I digress, Jin doesn't need x250k to ballet dance around Gog as I will establish in this post. One last counter on this point though:

In the last scan, Jin comments that his whole body was ruined from full jeabongchim... he's still suffering from the effects of using it, and Jin and Satan's fight was 17 years before he made this comment. Because of this, 250k limit removers seems to be more of a last ditch effort right now than anything else. He most definitely will not start the fight with it, but by the time he realizes Gog is a major threat it'd be too late.

Jin has Wolverine's regeneration, which there by neagtes the consequences of using x250k. Since he can heal through all the damage and the rebound of Jeabongchim. Jin can freely spam x250k and would no longer have compunctions about using it.

The main reason Jin may tries to avoid Jeabongchim, is because of the rebound damage. With the healing perk, You have a Jin who is in character about using Jeabongchim x *any number* because he can tank practically any amount of damage.

A valid counter. The bomb was constructed off-panel and Gog was time traveling all through that arc, so it's near impossible to deduce exactly how much time he took to make it. Still, he was the one who enabled the bomb with it's transmutation properties, and William Matthews received his abilities and power from Old God Gog who has demonstrated transmutation multiple times. Take Justice Society of America Vol. 3 (2007) #18 for example, where we see Gog turn a couple of guys into trees.

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And in JSA Kingdom Come Special : Magog, Gog transmutes a group of terrorists into water and feeds them into a river.

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I also think it's pretty obvious that Gog turning Superman into Kyrptonite is akin to Old Gog God turning Jay Garrick into pure speed force in Justice Society of America Vol. 3 (2007) #18.

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By all accounts of empirical evidence, a composite Gog wouldn't need the bomb to transmute Jin into something else.

I really regret not taking that molecular manip perk.

With the transmutational feats you have, it makes me wonder why you even bothered using the bomb strategy when Gog can transmute matter himself. However my strategy still stands. I'm still asserting that Jin will blitz Gog right off the bat to kill or incapacitate him, I will go deeper into it later.

It was stated in The Kingdom #1 that Gog had murdered thousands of supermen across various instances in time. Which means, that out of all the times Gog killed Supes, he used the time bomb only once(on panel atleast). The fact that he used it only once in a thousand times tells you that it is not his go-to or standard move or something he will attempt immediately.

Being a go-to move isn't a requirement when talking about prep.

That only applies only to non prep moves. We're talking about what is Gog's go-to prep move, ie; What is the most likeliest move or strategy he would employ during prep. In my previous post, I proved why the bomb isn't his go-to move during prep:

The fact that he used it only once in a thousand times tells you that it is not his go-to or standard move or something he will attempt immediately.

Gog used the bomb strategy only once on panel out of a thousand times where he used other prep strategies. This suggests that, if he had prep against some unknown foe, the probability of Gog using your strategy is less than 1/1000. I'm more likelier to die today getting hit by a bus(fact, you can google it).

Gog doesn't need to kill Jin. Victory is by death, KO or incapacitation. And transmutation would definitely incap Jin as far as anyone knows.

A fair rebuttal.

Fair enough, but this doesn't mean it would be out of character for Gog to make the bomb. It just means he's less likely to make it against an opponent he has no knowledge on. Not that he needs the bomb anyway.

Again, fair enough. Does this officially mean you're dropping that strategy?

He no-sold the combined assault of a dozen amped heroes. I think that's a pretty clear cut teambuster/transcendent level durability feat.

Which is like the vaguest tier ever. What exactly is transcendent?

The speed argument; Why Jin blitzes.

This is a clear cut by-the-books FTL speed feat, for both combat and reactions. Ray's statement only tells us that Gog is capable of moving at the speed of light, which he proved to be true by demonstrating FTL speed on more than one occasion. It's like me saying Jin can move at the speed of light. Wouldn't you say that's true? Of course, since he's moved faster right? In order to achieve FTL speed you have to pass the speed of light first. Someone pointing out that Gog can operate at light speed doesn't mean that that is the limit of his speed, especially since he has way faster feats.

Alright, while I have compunctions here and there about your interpretation, I'll digress. However, as I established in my opener, Jin is MFTL in combat speed:

One of it's best feats comes from when it expanded from the moon to the Earth before an extremely speed projectile could travel an inch:

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Now even if I criminally lowball the speed of those red projectiles, the expansion speed still amounts MFTL. Jin has blitzed guys who reacted to Yeoui(refer to opener for details)

How on Earth is to keep up with Jin when, even in base form, he is MFTL after lowballing. He would use Gog as a punching bag. This is not even including the fact that he has Jaecheongdaeseong mode and Jeabongchim and speed mode.

Jin could easily blitz Gog and use offensive Jeabongchim and paralyse him with two pokes

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And incapacutate him which is victory by the rules. Or he could just kick Gog's head off simce he has no real bluntdurabiluty feats, or he could just smash Yeoui across his head before he reacts, no way is Gog surviving a planet swinging at him at MFTL speeds.

Or he could teleport behind Gog and do it to make life easier.

Point is, Jin has the speed to casually blitz, many means to oneshot Gog and the character to use it very early, someof them right off the bat.

Conclusion

  • Jin has a massive and a hilarious stat advantage. He can blitz and oneshit.
  • Jin has Yeoui, which can also oneshot before Gog transmutes.
  • Jin has a huge skill advantage.
  • Jin can clones with the same stats as him.
  • Jin has regeneration which makes Jeabongchim a lot more in character since he can deal with almost any amount of pain rebound.
  • Jin has teleportation which he can use to blitz and oneshot before Gog transmutes.

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#26 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Edited by HigherPower (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619:

Rebuttal II

Jin has Wolverine's regeneration, which there by neagtes the consequences of using x250k. Since he can heal through all the damage and the rebound of Jeabongchim. Jin can freely spam x250k and would no longer have compunctions about using it.

The main reason Jin may tries to avoid Jeabongchim, is because of the rebound damage. With the healing perk, You have a Jin who is in character about using Jeabongchim x *any number* because he can tank practically any amount of damage.

Well, I guess I can agree that healing takes care of the rebound. But the rebound is only one of the reasons Jin would eschew maximum limit removers, and that is not even what I was arguing. My argument this entire time was the fact that Jin simply won't start a fight with 250,000 limit removers, and nothing you have said so far refutes nor discredits that argument. You said Jin will use them when the situation demands it, but considering Gog can one-shot him in the opening seconds of the fight with transmutation, the battle will never be drawn out to the point where he realizes Gog is a threat and would feel the need to go all out to combat him. In other words, there's no way you can argue that the situation [will] demand it, and you have no evidence supporting the belief that Jin may start the battle with his strongest technique against an opponent who he has no knowledge on.

I really regret not taking that molecular manip perk.

With the transmutational feats you have, it makes me wonder why you even bothered using the bomb strategy when Gog can transmute matter himself.

Because if a bomb is set to go off at the same time the match starts, there will be no need for a speed debate, and Jin would just lose immediately.

However my strategy still stands. I'm still asserting that Jin will blitz Gog right off the bat to kill or incapacitate him, I will go deeper into it later.

Look, Mori can't blitz Gog without using speed mode or 250k limit removers. Without those two buffs, he's still incredibly fast, but not more so than The Flash (KC Wally West) who Gog has already reacted to and tagged. Without scan dumping, I can tell you that Wally is by and far superior to a standard Jin in speed, having performed multiple picosecond level feats. And his Earth-22 equivalent was so thoroughly connected to the speed force that he was stated to live between the ticks of a second, among other things like this.

Gog used the bomb strategy only once on panel out of a thousand times where he used other prep strategies. This suggests that, if he had prep against some unknown foe, the probability of Gog using your strategy is less than 1/1000. I'm more likelier to die today getting hit by a bus(fact, you can google it).

The flaw in this assertion lies in the presumption that Gog didn't or wouldn't use that bomb in any of those 999 times. There's no way to know since it was off-panel, so there's no concrete evidence for you to argue it's probability being less than 1/1000.

Again, fair enough. Does this officially mean you're dropping that strategy?

Yes.

Which is like the vaguest tier ever. What exactly is transcendent?

Above herald, below skyfather.

Alright, while I have compunctions here and there about your interpretation, I'll digress. However, as I established in my opener, Jin is MFTL in combat speed:

How on Earth is to keep up with Jin when, even in base form, he is MFTL after lowballing. He would use Gog as a punching bag. This is not even including the fact that he has Jaecheongdaeseong mode and Jeabongchim and speed mode.

Alright now, hear me out. I already know all of Jin's feats, and I'm very well aware of what he can do and what he's capable of. I haven't lowballed him or argued against/downplayed his speed and stats in the entirety of this match. His speed is monstrous and he's exceedingly fast, but he's simply no Flash. I haven't even yet argued that Gog is faster than him, even though he is realistically speaking based on being superior to KC Wally. But Jin is not blitzing him, and Gog only needs to perceive him to take him down.

Jin could easily blitz Gog and use offensive Jeabongchim and paralyse him with two pokes

He was only fast enough to do that to Satan after activating maximum (250k) limit removers. I've already established that he won't open with them here, and Gog is at least comparable (and in all honesty probably way faster) to Jin in speed without that or speed mode activated. Meaning Gog just one-shots him with transmutation before he tries anything.

And incapacutate him which is victory by the rules. Or he could just kick Gog's head off simce he has no real bluntdurabiluty feats, or he could just smash Yeoui across his head before he reacts, no way is Gog surviving a planet swinging at him at MFTL speeds.

Or he could teleport behind Gog and do it to make life easier.

Point is, Jin has the speed to casually blitz, many means to oneshot Gog and the character to use it very early, someof them right off the bat.

By the way, how is Jin doing this to someone who's completely invisible?

Your Conclusion

Jin has a massive and a hilarious stat advantage. He can blitz and oneshit.

Well no one wants that, now do we?

Jin can clones with the same stats as him.

Glad you brought this up, although it's rather pointless since Gog can summon clones from the time stream—each with the same level of stats/power that he holds as well (since they're just him from different moments in time). We see this unfold in Action Comics (1938) #825.

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Gog manually rewrote his entire history, proving he has temporal access to his entire timeline and can summon a practically infinite amount of clones from himself from the time stream.

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And this is consistent with the fact that he was able to keep these clones coming for a war that lasted 100 years straight, which also shows unparalleled stamina.

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Now the cloning restriction limits the amount of clones used here to 10, but I mention this to simply show that Gog's clones are superior to Mori's.

Jin has teleportation which he can use to blitz and oneshot before Gog transmutes.

Nothing special. Gog has teleportation of his own and uses it often and methodically.

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Action Comics (1938) #815-816 and JSA Vol. 3 #15

Jin's teleportation in this match comes from his perk; he's never actually used it in battle and thus isn't experienced with it. Therefore Gog (since he actually holds the ability and has used it in combat) will be way more efficient when using his teleportation.

To conclude this, Gog is as fast as if not faster than Jin, and the latter still has no counter to transmutation.

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#28 Edited by EmperorThanos- (15516 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: Can we assume it is in character for characters to use their perks?

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#30 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15516 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Edited by Thenewguysnm1 (7343 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#32 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15516 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: Will have it up soon. Are characters proficient with their perks?

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#34 Posted by EmperorThanos- (15516 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: yes. Its been two weejs. You have till the end of the weekend. Then im forcing to votes

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#35 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower: This is probably my last post. I think any further would just be us running in circles.

Look, Mori can't blitz Gog without using speed mode or 250k limit removers. Without those two buffs, he's still incredibly fast, but not more so than The Flash (KC Wally West) who Gog has already reacted to and tagged. Without scan dumping, I can tell you that Wally is by and far superior to a standard Jin in speed, having performed multiple picosecond level feats. And his Earth-22 equivalent was so thoroughly connected to the speed force that he was stated to live between the ticks of a second, among other things like this.

Picosecond feats are supposed to be impressive? You do realise being several thousands of times FTL puts you in the picosecond tier right? You do realise Jin casually reaches thise speeds in base form? And that Jeabongchim and Jaecheongdaeseong mode are massive amps? Which generally are in character for Jin to spam?

The flaw in this assertion lies in the presumption that Gog didn't or wouldn't use that bomb in any of those 999 times. There's no way to no since it was off-panel, so there's no concrete evidence for you to argue it's probability being less than 1/1000.

It is unlikely that Gog would use that strategy more than once in my opinion, however my point doesn't change really, Gog is really unlikely to use that strategy on someone who isn't Kal.

By the way, how is Jin doing this to someone who's completely invisible?

Because invisibility isn't stopping someone whose senses extend across solar systems:

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He notices Gog and smashes him with Yeoui or simply expands Yeoui. Jin swings it around at MFTL speed and the expansion speed is similar.

Conclusion

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#37 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by HigherPower (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: @emperorthanos-:Yeah I think we're done. Further argument would just be me proving that Wally West is faster than Jin. You can open for votes now.

Enjoyable debate, Streak.

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#39 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower: So you want to stop because debating more increases your chances of winning? Okay I guess lol thanks?

And it was a good rematch. Good luck to you.

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#40 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio
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#41 Posted by deactivated-5b466be4b5981 (3660 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman is very fast. He can move faster than light.

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#42 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio
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#43 Edited by HigherPower (11966 posts) - - Show Bio

@streak619: No lol. I don't have the motivation to continue, especially when debating something that is pretty much common knowledge.

I'm just going to assume the voters also know that Wally is way faster than thousands of times the speed of light. But win or lose, I enjoyed the debate and that's all that really matters.

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#44 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio
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#45 Posted by TheHierarchy (2069 posts) - - Show Bio

Is this open for voting?

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#46 Posted by Thenewguysnm1 (7343 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by TheHierarchy (2069 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll vote later

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#48 Posted by _KingofLatveria (17993 posts) - - Show Bio

God,

God Of High School scans are so annoying to read lol

Online
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#49 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18002 posts) - - Show Bio

^^^Preach

Anyway, I'm half way done with so I will vote sometime this week.

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#50 Posted by Streak619 (6817 posts) - - Show Bio