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#51 Posted by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio
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#52 Posted by geekryan (4491 posts) - - Show Bio

How was I not tagged for this...? :(

T4V.

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#53 Posted by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio
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#54 Posted by beatboks1 (9969 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg: @chimeroid:

I'm assuming next post is final post so no new evidence except to answer questions raised?

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#55 Posted by Kevd4wg (12695 posts) - - Show Bio
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#56 Posted by emperorthanos- (16328 posts) - - Show Bio
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#57 Posted by beatboks1 (9969 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: will try and get something up tonight when home from work.

Was waiting for Chime to respond re question

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#58 Posted by beatboks1 (9969 posts) - - Show Bio

final post. First to address the "issues raised" and then my summary

@kevd4wg:

No she didn't. The skrull basically downloads herself into Rogue. Nowhere does it say that Rogue has all her powers/psyche coming back. I'm assuming you're talking about how Rogue says "It's like every part of me came unglued", but that's the natural response from having a skrull downloaded inside of you

No your assumption is incorrect. I', basing this on the fact that during the story she was able to use the powers of her team mates having NOT TOUCHED them and they operated completely differently.

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Quite simply even though she hadn't touched Wolverine and was in fact cut off from him (she was literally behind the attackers who attacked Logan from behind) she was able to use his powers without touching him. She even COMPLETELY transformed into him. manifesting his powers on a level she had never before done (she had copied Logan before yet all of a sudden is almost overloaded by his sensory input). Clearly the changes were significant.

it goes on to show his healing factor repairing some of what Zcann had done ( after which she again had to touch to absorb the power of Colossus - who was ironically the ONLY X-man we actually saw her touch and absorb earlier in that issue)

Yet the problem is, after Charles does this, Rogue is unconscious for over a day

I like how you go straight to this instance and ignore the mentioned feat of her pulling out psyches from Legion (mentioned for a reason).

  1. In the instance in question Charles unlocks ALL the billions plus of templates that Rogue has absorbed all her life (I'll get to how it's that many soon).
  2. in the instance with Legion she touched on all his 1000 personas without any such backlash
  3. here I'm only tapping 4 personas and not their powers JUST their psyches.

lets not forget that that very instance with Legion confirms there is a difference in how the NUMBER of psyches she absorbs affect her.

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It was clearly stated that when she absorbed the billions of personalities when she absorbed Hecatomb it nearly killed here yet the 1000 of Legion no issue.

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Legion has a 1000 personas that Rogue can tap without any backlash and was able to use for several issues. Considering I'm only tapping 4 (which is far less than the Legion instance), I fail to see why I would suffer the backlash she experienced when Xavier broke down ALL the walls between ALL the templates she had absorbed over an entire life or that of the Hecatomb instance or Xtreme Xmen when she used many many more templates than 4 (powers of She Hulk and all the xmen etc)

Plus there's the problem of conflicting personalities that she's absorbed, I mean in the instance of x-treme x-men you posted, when Rogue briefly used Magneto's powers, Magneto almost completely overwhelmed her

Yet again in THAT instance she used BOTH the powers AND the full templates (including Psyches) of several dozen characters. Not to mention she did this ALONE without the assistance of a telepath. A telepath who I have shown has completely rewritten the psyches of several dozen damaged minds at once. Sage doesn't have TP on the level of DN. she initiated the change and left Rogue to deal with it. Charles did the same on a MUCH larger scale. Neither is what I'm doing. Not to mention it was the first time it had ever been done and she was new to it. clearly with MANY later examples of her tapping multiple templates at once this is no longer an issue.

You claimed that none of the Telepaths in Xmen have ever done what they have and then when corrected try to use examples that are like major surgery by comparison to keyhole surgery.

Eh, my bad on that, but Rogue doesn't like to have a bunch of memories and powers rattling around. She did this to save Gambit, so it's not really her normal mind set

O_o Rogue doesn't really have a choice in the matter and never has (re bunch of memories and powers rattling around inside her)

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She has ALWAYS had a permanent residue of those she copies within her that she can feel. She has also on several occasions accidentally absorbed a LOT more than she would have liked.

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That last scan with Rogue's Late boyfriend is BTW Xavier and Gambit in her psyche decades after she absorbed him. He iss till a big part of her persona as was Carol for white some time

@chimeroid:

Now, pay close attention to the exact wording of the scan. Most feats are given context through details and paying attention can help prove or disprove a claim. In this case, we have a quote from Rogue that says:

"I absorbed her not so long ago. The memories are still fresh and so are the talents"

Skills and talents that diminish over time as Rogue has stated herself.

Perhaps you should have paid more attention to that detail yourself. Nothing about the exact wording said diminishing. when you take ALL the statement as a whole quite the opposite.

No she didn't. She said that the skills and talents were fresh because absorbed "not that long ago" (which was actually almost 12 months ago in print). In fact if you read it again you'll find she even said her "mind was blank". so the persona was absorbed so long ago she no longer retained the active memories yet STILL had the skills. If we were talking about just the powers she had absorbed this might play (if YEARS after). We are however talking about templates pulled out psionically. the templates in this instance are "fresher" than those used for her surgery on Moira as she would also still have the active memories.

Never before done in the way you propose it would be here. Moreover, psychies clearly don't show direct knowledge and Kev has already offered several high-quality counters to the strategy.

Much of which is debunked now. The fact is they have.

  1. DN in a shorter period of time than I have allowed completely rewrote the psyches of a dozen space station crew compared to here telepathically playing with only 4 Psyches
  2. every instance of a problem Kev has mentioned was of using vastly more templates simultaineously than I have chosen to (additionally both powers and psyche which I have not) as shown
  3. every instance was also without the psionic aid of a telepath controlling the event. Not one had the TPer sssspend time doing the work (which is whay I'm allowing 15 minutes not a few moments as per my scan evidence)
  4. her entire time with Ms Marvel's powers contradicts the idea that she doesn't have direct knowledge and she was even PSY treated by team tpers for the mess that made of her.

Cerellus ( who is one half of Dark Nebula) could telepathically alter the personas of the crew of the threshold space station to attack their allies. this change continued even after his "death" which showed how much of a change it was not just TP control. Then DN returned them all to normal in a single panel (shown)

Semantics, you know exactly what i meant. It takes a while to make any tech capable of leveraging Pym particles.

Again, semantics, you know what i meant. You can't just pull that level of tech out of your ass.

Your operating under the false premise that I am creating tech. no where did I say that. What I said is that it would give Rogue access to Pym particles. They are a naturally occurring sub atomic particle and I have already provided proof that two of my three team members can manipulate matter. You manipulate matter by moving sub atomic particles. Ergo both my matter manipulating team members move Pym particles with there powers to do what they do.

No tech is even required, and definitely not semantics. Pym particles were something that Hank pym discovered. With his knowledge and Blue Supes matter/energy manip as well as Dark Nebula's TK (that he has also used in my scans to manipulate matter) I have two team members that can literally affect these particles with their minds directly. The fact is the ONLY tech I've said I would create is teleporters for my three team members and controllers for blue supes.

He definitely has the knowledge, but has he ever done so in 45 minutes? That part is the questionable one.

I've shown he scans where Wally West can't keep up with him. The scans where he manipulates matter and makes things from it. The fact you concede he has the knowledge makes it not QUESTIONABLE at all.

She simply doesn't retain knowledge that others could use by reading her mind.

The scan I've loaded this post to answer Kev where Xavier and Gambit are in her mind is from an issue where they encounter countless places in her mind with JUST those memories sort of shoots that in the foot. there are countless other times that she also access memories that counter this,

And, to repeat myself, the draining has to be recent.

NOT according to Rogue

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If it had she wouldn't even be an X-man

And finally I left this point to cover last.

Are we forgetting about the importance of feats? Even with Superman's speed, you would have to show exactly what he can create with 45 minutes.

So am I to believe that this only applies to your opponents and not yourself?

Why exactly would it be different? I mean, i agree that, without feats, i can't claim he will turn the entirety of Ego into anti-matter, but I see no reason for Takion to show incapable of Turning a chunk of Ego, Iron Man and Dr Strange into Anti-Matter and cause country-sized explosions all over Ego.

Why? I understand that size is your only argument, but you seem to be overplaying it a lot. Also, not all of the feats I show are geared towards fighting you. In fact, I was very specific about attacks that are in reserve for Ego. Are you forgetting that you have two regular humans in your team? And that Beatboks has a bunch of 'em?

was this not part of your post?

So your argument is Takion will do things he hasn't shown based on things he's done but Blue Supes wont?

  1. Blue supes has matter manipulate to create things out of nothing (shown in my scans)
  2. you concede he has the knowledge
  3. you concede he has the speed

How is that any different from Takion turning part of ego Dr Strange etc into antimatter?

quite simply it isn't.

HMM after a skim through I just realized I haven't posted the scans of Blue Supes making things out of thin air this time (thought I had copied most evidence from last round into my opener). Since that would be "new evidence" and not an answer to newly raised questions I'm going to have to live with that and hope the voters read my battle with Shirso where I did offer the evidence. in post 17.

Summary

There is no denying I have the most uphill battle here.

I'm not a big believer in power wins the day since in most fiction it doesn't.

I have two team that are pretty damn hard to kill (one impossible)

one of whom can planet bust (which is a big thing when fighting a living planet)

Ego and Takion are the big guns on the field.

no one has disputed the fact that I can pull time remnants. those time remnants include the Rogue that absorbed all the avengers. For those that remember the story she held off a celestial. celestial >>> Ego or Takion.

Worst case scenario if ALL prep fails, she holds of Ego and Takion long enough for Dark Nubula to come back from the dead to summon her time remnant from that time again to continue the cycle until I win.

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#59 Posted by emperorthanos- (16328 posts) - - Show Bio
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#60 Posted by Kevd4wg (12695 posts) - - Show Bio
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#61 Posted by Darthjhawk (5460 posts) - - Show Bio

This bout the longest final round...

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#62 Edited by Kevd4wg (12695 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid@beatboks1

Counters to Chime

Feats

Why exactly would it be different? I mean, i agree that, without feats, i can't claim he will turn the entirety of Ego into anti-matter, but I see no reason for Takion to show incapable of Turning a chunk of Ego, Iron Man and Dr Strange into Anti-Matter and cause country-sized explosions all over Ego.

We've seen Country sized explosions can't do much of anything to Ego with the Galactus engine exploding and I'd have to wonder if he can transmute Iron Man and Doctor Strange considering they are inside of Ego, not on the surface. So honestly, I don't really see what this is going to do to Ego.

Why? I understand that size is your only argument, but you seem to be overplaying it a lot. Also, not all of the feats I show are geared towards fighting you. In fact, I was very specific about attacks that are in reserve for Ego. Are you forgetting that you have two regular humans in your team? And that Beatboks has a bunch of 'em?

Yeah, but in all honesty, the two humans aren't doing much outside of prep, if you kill them, oh well, if you don't, even better for me. Your main problem with me is fighting Ego.

He definitely can run away. In fact - HE WOULD. That was the ENTIRE POINT of my previous post. Ego would run away at the first sign of pain or danger. You making this point just solidifies my claim.

He's not running away from the fight, he's outpacing the black hole. That's not actually running away from the battle at all. That's simply countering a strategy. And it doesn't just take any amount of pain or injury to make Ego run away or he would've run away when a planet chomped on him as I showed in Astonishing Thor #3. The vast majority of the time that Ego runs away is when damage is done to his brain, where his damage is heightened. Like for instance the Nova instance and the Rom instance you sighted. And you seem to want to use this Rom instance a lot so let's talk about it. Firstly, throughout the entire issue Ego was weakened and was trying to get new energy(hence why he didn't want to be impeded)

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And yet even in this weakened state, Ego caused the most damage to Rom by just absorbing him into his body that he had suffered in over 200 years.

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And while Ego was weakened, Rom shot into his brain, where his damage perception is heightened, with the Neutralizer in a concentrated beam(normally it's in an AoE), and it's stated to be Galador's most powerful weapon. The Neutralizer is pretty hax as well so that could've had something to do with it.

There are a lot of sentences that you make that make no sense to me. It doesn't matter if Takion can or cannot move his arms and legs as fast as Wally can. He can operate in the same speed. Takion's main weapon is his mind. he just needs to THINK something and it will happen. The feat i showed proves, without a doubt, that Takion can operate in the same timeframe Wally can. Heck, for this battle, Takion doesn't have to move a single part of his body. All of what I am having him do is strictly related to his powers, which work through thinking.

So because Takion teleported out of the way before a Flash could reach him(whose unfamiliar with his powerset), I'm supposed to assume that he's just as fast as Flash? I mean, sure all he's doing is thinking, but there's a difference between subconsciously teleporting, and combining all of your powers. I mean, none of the feats you posted ever showed him abusing speed in combat, so why should I assume he will here?

Knowledge

He developed the control a bit later on. Either way, Takion has been stated multiple times to have access to nigh-omniscience. And, it's not like i was cruising for full knowledge. Just a basic glimpse into the future. Something even Aquaman is capable of. I mean, he literally has access to everything anyone has ever imagined, or will imagine.

Fair enough, but a basic glimpse into the future won't help you too much. I mean, even if you know where Ego is, it doesn't help if you're fighting an army of Rogues and Ego just blasts everyone on the battlefield to smithereens.

Trauma

I don't see that as a problem at all. I don't need him to fight. I think you completely missed the point of my use of Trauma. I never argued that he could become as powerful as Galactus (as Ego fears Galan) or anything similar. I merely wanted to play at Ego's fears to help hasten his decision to run away from this battle. Which, as you yourself noted when you said he can use his FTL speed to escape a black hole, is very possible even without Trauma's assistance.

Escaping a black hole isn't running from the battle, or everyone who isn't sucked into it would be retreating. The problem with Trauma is he can really only represent certain things, and Ego fears abstract things like Pain and Death. Ego is also pretty arrogant, even if someone messes him up once like Thor for example, he's perfectly content to fight them again so I really don't see Trauma doing much. If there's anyone Ego fears it'd be Galan, which would be beyond the rules.

You can question whatever you want. The issue is that you will get an answer that is unsatisfactory to you. You see, the way to beat Trauma is not to overpower him, it is to get over your fear. Hulk has shown to be capable of beating Trauma whatever Trauma morphed into because WWH wasn't afraid of anything. Ragnarok was capable of defeating Trauma once he got rid of his fear. Before he did he was 100% powerless before Trauma

Oh cool, in the Doctor Strange future visions, Ego will just see Trauma isn't actually whoever he transforms into, and we're good.

I don't have to have the power to hurt Ego, i just need to scare him. And it is canonically proven that Ego fears ROM enough to avoid him instead of fighting.

??? He's let people go and fought them again on multiple different occasions. Like Thor humiliated him and made him run in Thor #133 by unleashing an extremely powerful blast next to Ego's brain, but in Thor #226 Ego is all ready to fight Thor

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Future Sight

First of all, what if there were millions of ways for Avengers to win (as we can all simply speculate and as we all have in various threads) and Strange is just so dismally bad that he only saw one in 14 million? Would make him quite a poor seer? Wouldn't it?

I mean, that's just baseless speculation that could be said about any seer. I could say, what if there were billions of scenarios where the Avengers lost and only one where they won, would make him a pretty great seer wouldn't it? There's no basis for either one beyond speculation.

Psychich blast =/= Mind Control. So, you are yet to prove that Ego could do that at all.

Interesting that you say Ego can't mind control, but you yourself referenced Nova #30 where in that same arc Ego takes over the world mind through their link

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Keep in mind Worldmind's TP resist is a lot better then either Strange or Tony

Fear

The problem is that you are, for the fifth time, missing the point. Even after ROM got away from Ego's brain, Ego was too afraid to engage ROM any further. In fact, he straight up bolted for any space where the Spaceknight can't impede him. The current state of things shows that Ego would run away at the sight of ROM.

It does not! At all. Running away while one is weakened and needing nourishment does not mean that he would run away all the time. That would mean Galactus would shit his pants and run from Thor whenever he saw him, but obviously he doesn't.

He didn't no-sell shit there mate. He survived it. Anyway, as soon as he was harmed, he started begging for his life like a coward that he is. With the combined power of Takion and everything Beatboks1 is throwing at you, we can be pretty damn sure that Ego would feel the pain.

He was literally laughing afterwords. How the hell is this not no-selling

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Keep in mind, in this instance he had been drained and was weaker and part of the explosion was inside of him, but he literally laughed it off with no damage. Takion's country level explosions aren't going to bother him at all.

Yeah, we have seen twice so far that a Sun can outright kill Ego. but, that wasn't the fight. Once more, you are talking about the power levels of Ego and Norrin instead of focusing on Ego's character, which is what i am attacking. Once again, he was scared for his life and immediately forfeited the battle. And, even once Norrin no longer had the ability to affect the Galactus engine, Ego didn't have the balls to attack Surfer, instead, he just ran away, as he always does.

But you're saying Ego will flee at the first hint of pain. At this instance, he fled because he was literally in threat of death, that's completely different and I shouldn't have to explain that.

It's bloody consistent, there are no excuses about him being "at his best" that can help you. Every single time he feels pain, he gets scared and retreats. Beatboks1 and I don't have to prove that our teams can beat Ego, we just need to prove that we can cause him a bit of pain and he will run away with his tail between his proverbial legs. The black hole Takion can create could even be enough in and of itself as you admitted.

You've posted 3 scans of Ego being weakened running away, hey I'm seeing a pattern too. He no-sold a moon level explosion while weakened and a planet biting down on him, "a little bit of pain" isn't cutting it.

Doesn't matter if he could win or not, he reacted like a coward when he was in danger. Something that no hero character ever does. Everyone else in this battle is ready to face the odds and fight till the dying breath except for Ego.

No one else in this battle has the raw power of Ego either.

Other Stuff

Of course, my argument hinges on whether or not the combined might of Takion, Dark Nebula, Rogue, Blue Superman, Aquaman and Trauma can cause Ego to feel pain. We have seen what Beatboks1 proposes. And, his team includes one thing that is getting lost in this debate - Thor Rogues

The problem with this is that you seem to suggest you and Beatboks are teaming up against Ego, but you're not. Ego is far away on the battlefield and when Takion jumps in according to you he'll be surrounded by Rogue remnants. Not everyone on the battlefield is going to take a time out to team up on Ego, they'll be fighting each other, which is a perfect opportunity for Ego to just destroy the entire battlefield with a planet busting blast.

For example, Ego will run away as soon as Dark Nebula starts blasting him even without Takion's help. If Takion starts harming him too, Ego might even potentially die.

Ego survived a star busting blast to his interior, I don't think he's gonna die.

Counters to Beatboks

No your assumption is incorrect. I', basing this on the fact that during the story she was able to use the powers of her team mates having NOT TOUCHED them and they operated completely differently.'

I mean it doesn't really help your case that in this instance she couldn't control who she was turning into and literally turned into them.

Legion has a 1000 personas that Rogue can tap without any backlash and was able to use for several issues. Considering I'm only tapping 4 (which is far less than the Legion instance), I fail to see why I would suffer the backlash she experienced when Xavier broke down ALL the walls between ALL the templates she had absorbed over an entire life or that of the Hecatomb instance or Xtreme Xmen when she used many many more templates than 4 (powers of She Hulk and all the xmen etc)

Except in the instance of Sage, which is literally the only instance still of what you're arguing(casually calling back powers for Rogue to use without there being major side affects), she got overwhelmed by Magneto's mind alone, much less everyone else.

Yet again in THAT instance she used BOTH the powers AND the full templates (including Psyches) of several dozen characters. Not to mention she did this ALONE without the assistance of a telepath. A telepath who I have shown has completely rewritten the psyches of several dozen damaged minds at once. Sage doesn't have TP on the level of DN. she initiated the change and left Rogue to deal with it. Charles did the same on a MUCH larger scale. Neither is what I'm doing. Not to mention it was the first time it had ever been done and she was new to it. clearly with MANY later examples of her tapping multiple templates at once this is no longer an issue.

So now you're doing something that has never been done before. How am I supposed to know how long this will take, if it will affect Rogue in any way, hell how am I supposed to know if Rogue can even have the powers without the templates calling back to them.

clearly with MANY later examples of her tapping multiple templates at once this is no longer an issue.

It would've been great if you posted some like you were saying would happen.

I mean one of the instances you mention is the Uncanny Avengers instance and says she competed with a Celestial(which would put her way over limits if it was actually true), she was just pushing against it like Hulk did but the strain was literally tearing her apart as I already mentioned

one of whom can planet bust (which is a big thing when fighting a living planet)

But Ego is a lot more durable then a normal planet, I already mentioned in my first post that he no-sold a moon sized thing blowing up partially inside of him while weakened. A normal planet would probably be destroyed by that.

Summary

Even if Beatboks and Chime can pull off everything they plan on doing, it'll create a battlefield filled with Chaos and distraction, which would make it pretty easy for Ego to just blast it all to pieces, winning. The Chaos on the battlefield really works in Ego's favor, like for instance Trauma. With so many people there and such a far distance between him and Ego there's really no reason to think he'll transform into Ego's fear rather then say Rogue's.

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#63 Posted by emperorthanos- (16328 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: I know you are busy. But will you be able to finish this?

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#64 Edited by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: I definitely will. There is only one post left, and most of everything that wasi mportant has been stated.

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#65 Posted by emperorthanos- (16328 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: alright cool. Go check the all star pm I need your final character pick.

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#66 Posted by emperorthanos- (16328 posts) - - Show Bio
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#67 Edited by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: @kevd4wg:

THE ENDING

Since this is the final post of the tournament, i would probably do well to change the approach. Namely, instead of just ranting out the facts, the feats, and the debunks, I believe the last post should be a summary of the debate followed by several closing arguments. So, let's take a look at the main points of contestation and see exactly how this pans out.

Focusing Ego

The problem with this is that you seem to suggest you and Beatboks are teaming up against Ego, but you're not.

One of the important issues that Kev has rightfully brought up is the fact that this is not a 2v1 debate. But, there is an actual reason both me and BB1 believe Ego would be the focus of this fight. In fact, there are several. Allow me to list them out.

1. He is the most intimidating one

People in both teams know full well who Ego is, and people in both teams have worked together to fight the "big bads". The fact that he is a huge-ass living planet would more than likely make both of the teams focus all of the firepower on Ego and only after that would they divert their attention to fighting between each other.

2. Ego is the villain

On the entire battlefield, there is only one supervillain - Ego. Everybody else is basically a hero. In fact, odds are that Tony and Doc would team with the enemies to fight the super-mad evil planet. If they don't focus him he will, as you yourself stated, use a planet-destroying attack and they would all try to stop him. I am pretty sure that Ego would me the main focus of any single fight he appears in.

3. He is easy to hit

BB1's strategy consists of him trying to hide his team and approach this strategically. That doesn't go well with your idea of letting us brawl and you coming up to cleanup. But, it works perfectly for my point about everyone focusing on the biggest foe first.

With those 3 facts in mind i believe that there's no doubt that pretty much everyone in this debate will be focusing on Ego.

Apples and Oranges

You keep trying to counter my posts of Ego running away in the wrong way. You keep saying "it wasn't surfer's power that Ego feared" or "ROM was at his brain so he was capable of hurting him" but that is missing the point by a mile. In both of those showings, Ego ran away from Surfer and ROM AFTER the danger to him has passed.

Remember, when ROM left, Ego ran in the opposite direction to avoid meeting him again even though he should be able to effortlessly roflstomp ROM. Your counters talking about the power of ROM's weaponry or Ego being weakened are utterly irrelevant.

After all, i wasn't debating powers at all. I was showcasing his cowardice in the face of danger.

So, allow me to say this one more time:

EGO IS A COWARD

That has been proven in this debate beyond any reasonable doubt. There is no way that your single scan of him persisting (in a highly maddened state, so far from standard mindset) even remotely stands up to the case that i built about Ego taking the first chance to flee the scene or beg for mercy every single time.

Takion's Speed

So because Takion teleported out of the way before a Flash could reach him(whose unfamiliar with his powerset), I'm supposed to assume that he's just as fast as Flash? I mean, sure all he's doing is thinking, but there's a difference between subconsciously teleporting, and combining all of your powers.

All of my powers? I was very clear as to which moves i would use. Takion has a plethora of powers and has a very low level of "omnipotence" (meaning that his powers let him do whatever he wants, but he is by no means omnipotent) No, i wasn't suggesting the use of all of his powers.

And yeah, if all he needs to do to accomplish a feat is to *think* it, then using five different powers would require a total of five thoughts. Simple as that. And it's not like Ego has ever blitzed anyone before, so that is just off the table 100% and it's not even a good try.

Knowledge

Fair enough, but a basic glimpse into the future won't help you too much. I mean, even if you know where Ego is, it doesn't help if you're fighting an army of Rogues and Ego just blasts everyone on the battlefield to smithereens.

I believe the above does explain exactly why everyone would focus on Ego isntead of fighting the rest of human-sized opponents. There is no way anyone in their right mind would notice a PLANET attacking them and think "You know what, i should probably first start hitting this pretty girl with a southern accent".

Face it, Ego is getting focused - hard.

Trauma

Escaping a black hole isn't running from the battle, or everyone who isn't sucked into it would be retreating. The problem with Trauma is he can really only represent certain things, and Ego fears abstract things like Pain and Death. Ego is also pretty arrogant, even if someone messes him up once like Thor for example, he's perfectly content to fight them again so I really don't see Trauma doing much. If there's anyone Ego fears it'd be Galan, which would be beyond the rules.

Getting all of Galan's powers would be beyond the rules, but we have already established that Trauma doesn't have feats to prove that he gets 100% on the level of the one he copies. Remember, he is here to play mind games with the coward you call Ego.

Oh cool, in the Doctor Strange future visions, Ego will just see Trauma isn't actually whoever he transforms into, and we're good.

How would he see that? That isn't in the future. Anyway, this is the last post, so i will let the voters decide. I just want to point out that looking into the future can't show you what my team does during prep.

??? He's let people go and fought them again on multiple different occasions. Like Thor humiliated him and made him run in Thor #133 by unleashing an extremely powerful blast next to Ego's brain, but in Thor #226 Ego is all ready to fight Thor

I mean, what you did there would make sense if that showing didn't come shortly after the removal of Ego prime by Tana Nile which made Ego even Madder than he ever was. He was, for all intents and purposes completely insane during that story. Either way, a single showing of trading blows with Thor for a total of one panel doesn't really make a good case for you. Especially not with me showing so many feats of Ego just running away.

Mind Control

Interesting that you say Ego can't mind control, but you yourself referenced Nova #30 where in that same arc Ego takes over the world mind through their link

It was quite clear that Ego didn't take over shit there mate. He merged with the Worldmind unintentionally and they both changed due to that fact. What you show there is not a good feat of TP. In fact, it was quite the opposite. Their minds merged, it wasn't ego taking control.

Conclusion

I don't think there is a need to bring up any more counters to BB1's approach to this battle as i simply don't believe he has done enough to prove that he can beat the combined powers of Aquaman (magic negation) and Takion.

So, this debate lives or dies on the question of whether or not we focus on Ego and if he stays 'till his dying breath.

Now, based on the six posts that me and BB1 have made, it does seem like both of our teams will focus our firepower on Ego. In fact, there wasn't a singular counter to that idea throughout the debate.

From everything we have seen, Ego has so far ran away from the Fantastic 4, Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, and ROM. Moreover, he has completely lost his shit to the point of being 100% useless in the fight with Super Ego. On the other hand, we have his singular showing of standing up to Alter Ego after he was damaged as "counter-proof" that supports his "bravery in combat".

Takion Can Solo Ego

Takion is immune to physical damage. In fact, he doesn't even need a physical form to fight, it's just a force of habit for him. And, throughout the entirety of this debate all you have offered as a means of beating him was showing bigger energy blasts. Unfortunately, that is just not going to cut it. With the vast variety of powers Takion has, he would eventually solo EGo if it came to that. But, realistically, Ego would turn tail and run away long before that happens.

For The Voters

It took some effort, but i made Kev debate about the wrong things for the duration of the tourney round. The main idea that i had was that, as long as he focuses on 'How' they hurt Ego, he won't be focusing on debating his character flaws. For that very simple reason, he has failed to make a case for Ego until his last post. But, that last post has shown us too little, and too late. It simply doesn't paint the picture he wanted to show to you guys. So, let's recap:

1. From my first post i have stressed the fact that Ego is a coward. A statement that hasn't even been disputed

2. The combined powers of Takion and Dark Nebula have been proven to be on the level that would potentially kill Ego, let alone harm him

3. The versatility of Takion also gives him access to abilities BRB has used to depower Ego. For example, we have seen that even the most rudimentary gravity manipulation can beat Ego soundly. And i have proven that Takion has those powers early on.

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#68 Posted by Kevd4wg (12695 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: I'd just like to point out that the first half of your post about Ego being the most noticeable thing on the battlefield seems to assume he's not invisible(if you want me to delete this I will)

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#69 Posted by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg said:

@chimeroid: I'd just like to point out that the first half of your post about Ego being the most noticeable thing on the battlefield seems to assume he's not invisible(if you want me to delete this I will)

No reason to delete it, both me and BB have already shown that Ego is far from untraceable to our teams. Heck, he has a gravitational field. He can be as "invisible" as he wants, he is still insanely noticeable. Between the telepathy and cosmic senses, his invisibility is just useless.

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#70 Posted by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio
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#72 Posted by geekryan (4491 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, this 3-way final was a lot to read through and take in with so many characters involved, so I'll keep my vote short.

All three of you did pretty well! You each had solid arguments and counters, as well as good choice of characters and perks.

Kev had a pretty OP team from the start, and I know this first-hand as I went up against him and chose to concede. Ego was by far the biggest factor in this fight, and not just physically. I was pretty convinced that Ego posed a serious threat to the other two teams, but I was also convinced that the other two teams would focus on Ego first and foremost, as well as having the ability to detect him and the means to affect him.

BB had an interesting strategy but both Kev and Chime debunked most of it.

In my opinion, Chimeroid had the most logical strategy and the best arguments, namely for Ego's cowardice and Strange's inability to predict the future. Chime also countered everything thrown at him pretty well.

All in all, my vote goes to @chimeroid.

Great job to all of you! This was a fun debate to read through.

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#73 Posted by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio

@geekryan: thanks for the read and for the vote :) i tried to keep it relatively short

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#75 Posted by vsw (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

Ill try to get something up in 1-2 days.

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#76 Posted by emperorthanos- (16328 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

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#78 Posted by Wyldsong (9749 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: I need a few days, but I will try and look it over. Busy work week.

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#79 Posted by Au_141 (993 posts) - - Show Bio

This is gonna a while to get through but I’ll vote

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#80 Posted by deactivated-5ca9389143922 (596 posts) - - Show Bio

While Ego is op af, I think Chime showed that both of the other teams could gang up on him and make him flee after getting hurt enough, their firepower seems to be enough, and a planet is certainly hard to not notice.

For Chime, he debated very well, but I feel like he could have shown a bit more of what his team could do to take out Beat's crew. He focused on Ego a tad too much.

Beat convinced me his characters could do the prep that he claimed, especially with FTL speeds, that can surely turn the 45 minutes into several years if they're at super speed the whole time. Now, whether or not they'd actually do the whole cloning/teleporting/shrinking stuff, in character, that much I'm not sure. The other teams could have focused on that more.

That said, I feel several Supermen, Rogues, and DNs would overwhelm Chime's team since only Takion seems to be fast enough to keep up in the first place. So, I'd say @beatboks1 wins.

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#81 Posted by GilgameshThePimpToEndAllPimps (2554 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok, this 3-way final was a lot to read through and take in with so many characters involved, so I'll keep my vote short.

All three of you did pretty well! You each had solid arguments and counters, as well as good choice of characters and perks.

Kev had a pretty OP team from the start, and I know this first-hand as I went up against him and chose to concede. Ego was by far the biggest factor in this fight, and not just physically. I was pretty convinced that Ego posed a serious threat to the other two teams, but I was also convinced that the other two teams would focus on Ego first and foremost, as well as having the ability to detect him and the means to affect him.

BB had an interesting strategy but both Kev and Chime debunked most of it.

In my opinion, Chimeroid had the most logical strategy and the best arguments, namely for Ego's cowardice and Strange's inability to predict the future. Chime also countered everything thrown at him pretty well.

All in all, my vote goes to @chimeroid.

Great job to all of you! This was a fun debate to read through.

I pretty much agree with all of this. As someone who knew nothing about these characters in the slightest, it was certainly an interesting read.

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#82 Edited by Warlockmage (9201 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-(forgot to tag you to count my vote) ok wow... holy shit what a cluster of debating and skill. uhh where do i start... first off Ego was stupid OP in the fight but i think Chime had the right idea about damaging him enough to flee and both @chimeroid and @beatboks1 convinced me their team could damage Ego and make him run away. and they did a good job convincing me Iron Man and Strange wouldn't be factors in the fight.

so i was mainly looking between those 2 for the win... and i think Chime did a rather outstanding job of debunking both team's plans/strategy. Plus he used Takion properly (hes a haxy boi ain't he) also i can't believe he knew about Trauma,

and in terms of formatting/structure all 3 were great but i had the easiest time following Chimes.

i see no reason why @chimeroid shouldn't get my vote for winning this debate... he earned it and im really hoping he wins this one (and that Takion gets moved up to a 9 where he belongs)

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#83 Posted by BOC (1079 posts) - - Show Bio

ignore this

ignore this

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#84 Posted by Menos_Kegare (116 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote for @beatboks1.

Chimeroid and Beatboks together really bit down into Kev, whose entire victory condition was left to whether or not Ego could practically solo. With both of them going over how Ego wouldn't be able to take the combined assault from the two teams(as it does make sense to not leave the giant floating planet of death free to do whatever) and would either go down or run away from their effort(I actually really liked this part, interesting win condition). Either way, I don't think Kev's win condition was practical in this case.

Funnily enough, I think too much attention went into taking Kev out - which left a bit to be desired regarding Beatboks vs Chimeroid. I don't feel like the counter-arguments to Beatbok's strategy with Rogue won me over. As Beatboks said, most of Chimeroid's examples were more to the extreme limits of her power rather than Beatbok's smaller use of 4. I also felt that Chimeroid was misunderstanding Beatbok's use of pym particles - he wasn't making machines with them, but was rather using the particles themselves in their natural form(correct me if I'm wrong). Outside of that, you did concede he was fast enough and had the knowledge to do so.

Kewl debate. :p

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#85 Posted by Just_Banter (12386 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1 Wins this one imo. Interestingly enough it was largely Chimeroid's final post that solidified Beatboks' position for me. Out of the teams here, Beatboks' prep and overall numbers made him the solid winner among the "human-sized" teams and Chimeroid, apart from his rebuttals against Beatboks' prep didn't really press into his strategies and abilities and instead focused on Ego.

I say that Beatboks was the winner among the "human-sized" teams because overall I thought that Kev had the highest chances of winning. Nobody truly countered his offensive abilities, at least, until the closing posts. It was those counters (bigger beams not taking out Takion, etc) along with the evidence supporting the notion of the two little teams ganging up to shoo Ego off before they fight each other that knocked him out of the fight.

Between Beatboks and Chimeroid it had the makings of a really close match, but as I said Chimeroid really didn't debate against Beatboks' team outside of his strategy, focusing far more on proving that Ego's a little bitch than anything else. That's all well and good, and one of the primary reasons why this vote isn't being given to Kev, but the fact remains that apart from lackluster counters of prep (of which only a few parts were even attempted to be countered, with the time remnant clones being a large part of Beatboks' prep that nobody even really brought up apart from when Chimeroid did IN SUPPORT of how powerful they are) Beatboks' team was largely ignored, which isn't exactly a good thing for his opponents.

So, yeah. Voting for Beatboks. Congrats you have strong team.

@emperorthanos- pls give priority status on scenario thx bby love u xoxo

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#86 Posted by Lan_Fan (13079 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like Ego has the best chance of winning since Kev has proven that Ego has the most raw power. The most convincing ways the other guys can win if they put Ego down together first, but I actually don't buy that argument. This is supposed to be a 3-way fight. Apparently the other reason to Ego losing is his cowardice, but I feel like Kev has explained the context of those stuffs pretty well. I'm voting for @kevd4wg since I think he has the better chance of winning than the other 2 with their winning strategies being very conditional.

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#87 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18313 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-(forgot to tag you to count my vote) ok wow... holy shit what a cluster of debating and skill. uhh where do i start... first off Ego was stupid OP in the fight but i think Chime had the right idea about damaging him enough to flee and both @chimeroid and @beatboks1 convinced me their team could damage Ego and make him run away. and they did a good job convincing me Iron Man and Strange wouldn't be factors in the fight.

so i was mainly looking between those 2 for the win... and i think Chime did a rather outstanding job of debunking both team's plans/strategy. Plus he used Takion properly (hes a haxy boi ain't he) also i can't believe he knew about Trauma,

and in terms of formatting/structure all 3 were great but i had the easiest time following Chimes.

i see no reason why @chimeroid shouldn't get my vote for winning this debate... he earned it and im really hoping he wins this one (and that Takion gets moved up to a 9 where he belongs)

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#88 Posted by emperorthanos- (16328 posts) - - Show Bio

Chime:4

Beats:3

Kev:1

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#89 Posted by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio

Chime:4

Beats:3

Kev:1

oooh, the votes are tight. Love it :)

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#90 Posted by Gaoron (8721 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn, that was quite a big read. And I think it's the first 1v1v1 CaV I've read too. Never heard about characters like Trauma too so it was something new to read about.

Ego was the top dog here but feel like both Chime and Beats presented nice counters for him pointing out his cowardness, especially Chime with not only second most powerful but really versalite Takion convincing me that Talkion could not only scare off Ego but actually has a shot of beating him. Everyone was heavily focusing on prep argument aswell but again I feel like Chime did it the best countering Beats prep strategy and presenting pretty good one himself.

Overall Chimeroid gets my vote, he had the best balance between versality and pure fire power of his characters and used it perfectly to get that W.

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#91 Posted by emperorthanos- (16328 posts) - - Show Bio
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#92 Edited by Lunacyde (28178 posts) - - Show Bio

Very good debate all around. The way that it played out with such a focus on Ego I think it played to @beatboks1 benefit, and he capitalized with a well-constructed team and plausible strategy. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was without flaw, but he was able to convince me the strategy was both reasonable given their abilities and at the least not out of the question for their characters. @chimeroid could have countered Beatboks' more effectively, as it was he did not spend as much time. @kevd4wg did a pretty good job too, but the way the strategies unfolded put him at a disadvantage and he could not overcome it with superior argumentation or presentation.

Taking is into account i have to give my vote to Beatboks, but again everyone had some great moments.

EDIT: Nevermind....looks like I was too late.

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#93 Edited by Kevd4wg (12695 posts) - - Show Bio
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#94 Posted by beatboks1 (9969 posts) - - Show Bio
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#95 Posted by Wyldsong (9749 posts) - - Show Bio

Well hell...I finally remembered about this...nevermind...

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#96 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18313 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1:

Always the bridesmade never the bride.

I’m sure you will win one of these days, you debated pretty well.

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#97 Edited by beatboks1 (9969 posts) - - Show Bio

@thewatcherking:

I dont really care about winning. Just that I can tell a creative and fun story. That IMHO is what tourneys are for, to create new tales of the characters you like. Its also why I USUALLY use characters long out of print.

When I do use characters still in print I TRY to use them in ways they've never been used in a comic. This time it was rogue. In earlier tourneys Ive used Animal man copying the power of bwanna beast to alter his and team mates DNA to merge into one character.

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#98 Posted by Chimeroid (9241 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: To be perfectly honest, i was drawing a blank against your team. My strategy was literally to awe them with debating skills by beating Ego so soundly i make myself look dominant. I didn't have an inkling of an idea of how to beat you. Now, i didn't really buy into your prep, so i just let the voters decide on whether or not it is convincing enough :)

If it was a tie in votes i would hand it over to you .heck, i beat Ego mostly by leveraging your team :D

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#99 Posted by Jacthripper (14967 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: To be perfectly honest, i was drawing a blank against your team. My strategy was literally to awe them with debating skills by beating Ego so soundly i make myself look dominant. I didn't have an inkling of an idea of how to beat you. Now, i didn't really buy into your prep, so i just let the voters decide on whether or not it is convincing enough :)

If it was a tie in votes i would hand it over to you .heck, i beat Ego mostly by leveraging your team :D

This was a really cool debate. I'm sorry I didn't get a vote in on time. Congratulations.

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#100 Posted by beatboks1 (9969 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: if it had been a tie I would have voted for you myself 😉

I never expected to get one vote when I was as far behind both other teams as I was in power.

Re my prep both you and Kev seemed to look at it wrong IMHO. Limitations of Rogue really shouldnt have even had any vearing on it.

If one of my characters was say a Vulcan who had mind melded with Strange, Pym and Doom and as such retained portions of their psyche in said Vulcans mind and a TPer pulled that to the surface the Vulcan themselves has no bearing on that occuring. Or someone else's mind on the recieving end of that mind meld. The mental/psyche templates within Rogue are pretty much the same thing. You may recall ambassador Spock used a mind meld on Picard to better know his late father due to their earlier mind meld. A joined Trill is another exanple of this.

Ironically I didnt think of that particular analogy until after I'd made my final post.