2018 High Tier PYP 1st Edition RD2: King_hellstorm vs Chimeroid(Open for votes)

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#51 Posted by emperorthanos- (16874 posts) - - Show Bio
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#52 Posted by Chimeroid (9274 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: I think we should be cool after his post. If he brings in any questionable scans, i will need a super short rebuttal, otherwise i am fine to go to votes as soon as he wraps it up.

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#57 Posted by APEX_pretador (21483 posts) - - Show Bio
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#58 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@apex_pretador: I lost my entire post. It isn't too long, it's just non-existent. I saved it on docs but copying from docs and pasting it on here does not work as scans and format disappear.

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#59 Posted by APEX_pretador (21483 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: Some voters might be too lazy to read it on docs

And CV looks nicer to read

.

From next time you should PM yourself

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#60 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@apex_pretador: You just click a link, the format is essentially the same.

True. The spoiler blocks mechanic should be added to Word and Docs.

I did.......the full story is in the 2018 PM. I saved the post in Google Docs, a PM, Internet Explorer (I just pasted it into an open PM without hitting send) before posting. But both the PM and the post froze up and turned blank. Internet Explorer kept it, so I clicked send, but an imbecil shut off my computer thinking I wasn't using it (cause IE loads slowly so I left it running unsupervised). Meaning my only choice was Docs but as I explained, the format does not translate well from Docs to CV.

I did save half of my post in a PM in CV, but half of a long post is too much to remake.

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#61 Posted by APEX_pretador (21483 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: You have truly achieved the status of a CV veteran now with your post lengths

I did.......the full story is in the 2018 PM. I saved the post in Google Docs, a PM, Internet Explorer (I just pasted it into an open PM without hitting send) before posting. But both the PM and the post froze up and turned blank. Internet Explorer kept it, so I clicked send, but an imbecil shut off my computer thinking I wasn't using it (cause IE loads slowly so I left it running unsupervised). Meaning my only choice was Docs but as I explained, the format does not translate well from Docs to CV.

Oh, that explains it

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#62 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@apex_pretador: You know I don't think things like this happen to vets

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#63 Posted by APEX_pretador (21483 posts) - - Show Bio
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#64 Posted by pmcinelly784 (1133 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom I hate you Mr. "exactly 100 pages". I read the other posts over the course of the day, and got to that one and gave up lol. I just want to point out how much I actually despise you. Carry on.

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#65 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#66 Posted by pmcinelly784 (1133 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: Really? I guess it's just much easier to read w/ comicvine formatting. BTW, I lied and I'm reading through the doc page right now lol

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#67 Posted by Just_Banter (12420 posts) - - Show Bio

>100 pages

y tho

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#68 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@pmcinelly784: Yeah, in doc 1 large scan can take up an entire page and they have no spoiler blocks so it looks large.

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#69 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18960 posts) - - Show Bio
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#70 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#71 Posted by emperorthanos- (16874 posts) - - Show Bio
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#72 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: I'll probably try to transfer my post into CV once I cool off, but yeah I'm ready for votes. I'm certainly not in the mood for a 4th round of posts.

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#73 Posted by Chimeroid (9274 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: Let me read through this to see if there are any contextual issues or misunderstandings so i can figure out if a short rebuttal is needed. Otherwise, sure :)

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#74 Posted by Chimeroid (9274 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: @chimeroid:Shall I open to votes?

\off the bat, i can see MH didn't really understand my point when i said he needs feats for the bridge :) so i will just make a post explaining that type of shit. Nothing big, i won't introduce any new feats or strategies.

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#75 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
@emperorthanos- said:

@major_hellstrom: @chimeroid:Shall I open to votes?

\off the bat, i can see MH didn't really understand my point when i said he needs feats for the bridge :) so i will just make a post explaining that type of shit. Nothing big, i won't introduce any new feats or strategies.

If I didn't understand it doesn't actually matter because maybe the voters did and they are your real audience, and if they didn't understand then that's kinda on you. Either way, if you still make another post, I'm not going to respond any time soon, CV's antics have worn me out for the past 3 days.

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#76 Posted by Chimeroid (9274 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid said:
@emperorthanos- said:

@major_hellstrom: @chimeroid:Shall I open to votes?

\off the bat, i can see MH didn't really understand my point when i said he needs feats for the bridge :) so i will just make a post explaining that type of shit. Nothing big, i won't introduce any new feats or strategies.

If I didn't understand it doesn't actually matter because maybe the voters did and they are your real audience, and if they didn't understand then that's kinda on you. Either way, if you still make another post, I'm not going to respond any time soon, CV's antics have worn me out for the past 3 days.

Actually, you are right. If you are pooped from debating, i won't pressure this further.

I just wanted to note that you still didn't showcase anything other than visual info from the bridge, meaning - no scanners and such and such, and a couple of other small things.

For example, i used pretty much every highfather combat showing he has.

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#78 Posted by emperorthanos- (16874 posts) - - Show Bio
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#79 Edited by Chimeroid (9274 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: @chimeroid:So should I open to votes?

Sure, go ahead. But i might be PM-ing voters after they are done voting for either side to ask them if they followed my points, as MH politely noted, i might have failed to pressure certain points properly.

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#80 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: Are you gonna open this for votes?

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#81 Posted by emperorthanos- (16874 posts) - - Show Bio
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#82 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: Are you gonna open this for votes?

100 pages...

My essays aren't that long, why don't you just make 2 posts separately?

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#83 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#84 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

@_kingoflatveria: Two 50 page posts is the same as one 100 page post.

two separate posts CV, that's what Hulk fans like TDB and Battleaxe do lol

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#86 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom said:

@_kingoflatveria: Two 50 page posts is the same as one 100 page post.

two separate posts CV, that's what Hulk fans like TDB and Battleaxe do lol

Very well boss. Here is part one

Part 1

Thank you for that compliment. This has been a rough ride, but I'm not through yet.

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Theme

Since this will be our final posts, I went with a theme that not only exemplifies my team but also reminded me of MK fatalities.

Counters

The Bridge

And, this is the exact same reason you shouldn't use featless things. Not only are you using a one-and-done piece of gear, but you also lack actual feats with it. Don't get me wrong, i am more than willing to accept the one-time tech. However, the lack of feats is really killing you.

Wrong and wrong. Reed used the bridge more than once, it started an entire ark where he met the Council of Reeds, so calling it a one-and-done piece of gear is flat out wrong. However, as I said earlier he only discovered it's ability to mine other realities and see into the future much later, which you may think is a one-and-done ability but again, that is wrong because in this debate alone I showed two separate instances where it was used.

Here I showed BP using in (in my opener)

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New Avengers

And here I showed Reed using it, in a different series altogether, to mine 1 billion alternate realities

Dark Reign: Fantastic Four #4
Dark Reign: Fantastic Four #4

So saying it is on-and-done is wrong on all fronts and if you read my post, you would know that. As for it being fearless, it mined a billion realities and it saw two hours into the future if those aren't feats than I don't know what is. Now you did clarify saying

You have to provide feats to let us see EXACTLY what you can do with that ability.

But this is just stretching. I do not need to show Reed using the Bridge to build anything when I have shown the Bridge's feats and Reed's quick thinking, see depowering Galactus and Reed as an old man deconstructing alien weaponry to reverse aging

So yes, he can easily depower High Father. But just for fun, let's keep going, here he is, only using Quasar's energy manipulation and Johnny's cosmic power (which he had at the time cause he was a herald), instructing Quasar on how to make a weapon that would defeat Galactus.

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That did more that defeat Galactus, it robbed him of his true form, turning into a middle-aged looking man.

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So.........there's that, but let's dial it back a bit shall we? Let's look at when Reed, as an old dying man, figured out how to reverse engineer Skrull weaponry and reverse aging.

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Fantastic Four #214

I am not saying this gun will be used here like the others, since High Father is likely too old for de-aging to do anything, however, I am showing how quickly Reed can solve seemingly impossible problems even when hindered.

I don't think you understand how screens work. If the screen is not showing anything, their powers are useless. If all the pixels are black, they are simply black. Nothing more. Your team can't get the information they need. Not without opening an actual portal into the future. And that would be time manipulation.

So I don't know what you are getting at here, Reed is smart and the Bridge can see the future. That's all I had to prove and I think I have proved both pretty well.

That is great. However, how much info did he get on any of them?

It literally told BP the future and gave Reed a detailed history on a billion Earths, here are 3 scans of Reed learning about various Earths.

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You claim you could get enough information to device a machine targeted against Highfather. So, i will give you one more chance to show that the Bridge can actually provide Reed with that type of information.

I'm a little iffy on this statement in particular, did you see Reed making a device to depower 30 cosmic cubes with his only information being an energy frequency? I showed it twice but here it is again. So not only did Reed create a weapon that can depower a device that dwarfs's Highfather's power so much that they aren't even comparable, Reed did that with one piece of information. And yet, here you find it hard to believe that Reed, with the ability to see the future and possible futures, can depower Highfather, who again is a vastly weaker being. And this isn't just me wanking that feat, he did so against Galactus as well only using constructs and cosmic power.

Think about that for a moment, I could just be biased, but I find it silly to think Reed cannot create a device to depower Highfather with future knowledge and 3 hours of prep time.

I don't think you understand how screens work. If the screen is not showing anything, their powers are useless. If all the pixels are black, they are simply black. Nothing more.

I don't think you understand how sight works if there is no light it is literally impossible to see anything yet two of my characters can see. That's why they are fictional. But I see that it will be a little hard to believe in them seeing a black screen, and I can understand that but who said anything about a screen? Where's the screen here?

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Your team can't get the information they need. Not without opening an actual portal into the future. And that would be time manipulation.

Or they can just download the information directly into their brains.

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And since they are downloaded information directly into their brains, sight doesn't matter,

Darkling Darkness

So, when someone asks what the feat is, the only REALISTIC and unbiased answer is "She covered 5000 sq miles with Darkness" Saying anything else is just trying to oversell the feat.

And you happen to be an unbiased source? What makes you more neutral than I am?

Interesting. I never saw a scan of her at least stating "Today, i will rule the world". She just used an non-quantifiable term of "soon". And, yes, when it comes to ruling the world, a week, or a month, counts as soon.

So you're saying that she's going to wait in that spot for an entire day to a month? Let me remind you, she made zero moves after calling down the darkness, she waited there and that was it.

The Devil's Quote - Ok, i have to take the page with the Devil's quote apart for this. First of all, saying "my greatest gift" is not a proof of a planetary power. Simple as that. Secondly, do you want to say that what the Devil says is an undeniable truth? In that case, your team can't see in the darkness either. To pull a direct quote from the Devil: "Impenetrable darkness in which none but you can see". There is no ambiguity in that statement, yet you claim that others with the dark vision can see in that darkness. So, you can either take the ENTIRETY of the quote as the gospel truth, or accept what we all already know.

Well, no one except for Darkling can see in the darkness. Yeah, I said Jackie could but it has more to do with that fact that he is omnipresent than him actually seeing with his eyes

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So technically, the devil is right, only Darkling can see. Jackie just uses omnipresence.

Boastful statements are not feats.

Statements are better than nothing and you literally showed nothing except your own interpretation. Now, people can interpret the feat however they want, but we are in a debate, the person who proves their point through the most evidence should be the one voted for, regardless of personal opinion. I say this because the BoP is shared, we both made claims and you have provided little to no evidence. While mine may not be concrete, it's better than nothing.

Actually, literally nothing accelerates in movement through geometric growth. It is always arithmetic.

That's not true, many things experience exponential growth but the caveat is, there is a limit to everything.

Anti-Galactus armor

There is no need to quote most of your claims from this. The only feat this armor has is highly unimpressive in the scope we are operating at right now.

What are you even talking about? He one shot an armor that tanked attacks from 40 of Earth's strongest heroes. I'll say that again, he one shot an armor that tanked attacks from 40 of Earth's strongest heroes. One more time, he one shot an armor that tanked attacks from 40 of Earth's strongest heroes. Now explain how that is unimpressive and how Superman is a thousand times stronger?

Not to mention that it lacks speed feats, durability feats, or any form of versatility. It literally only has the ability to throw a single, relatively powerful punch.

It has the ability to mash your team's faces in with one hit and be repaired and rebuilt any time by the darkness.

This is a direct comparison. They both threw a punch that made a shock wave. The armor you have made a shock wave that slightly bothered the audience and the wind moved trees around. Superman made a shock wave that almost destroyed the MOON. Superman's punch is AT LEAST a 1000 times more im

This argument is only logical on paper and not in practice. Look at this scan, here is the iconic image of Thanos casually backhanding Drax and Hulk

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But look how tiny those yellow shock waves are, I guess Thanos is confirmed at least a hundred times weaker than All Might

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Or look here, Mangog hits hard enough to break 3 giants

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But his shock wave was small, Saitama's was way stronger, so Saitama is way stronger than Mangog

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Honestly you see where I am getting at. Comparing the shock waves is crazy, I can prove mid tiers are stronger than high tiers or high tiers are stronger than team busters etc. with this method.

So comparing shock waves while ignoring the actual feat is, for a lack of a better word, illogical to me. The actual feat being one-shotting an armor that tanked attacks from 40 of the Earth's best heroes.

Show me scans that quantify how fast it is, how durable it is, how versatile it is, and how protected the driver is.

And I have to show this why? Did you show speed feats for Highfather that would require speed feats on my end? The answer is no. You have only shown travel speed which means nothing. As for durability, Jackie can just keep rebuilding it if needed. And as for versatility, I never claimed it was versatile.

Draining Tech

Your proof that Reed created the Sonic Shark is that Johnny said "Our" at one point?

Johnny literally said that they owned it, it may have been offhandedly but it's obvious that he is saying that it's the Fantastic Four's missile, made by the Fantastic Four.

Why was it then put to use by the Army?

Because it was given to them. Reed and Sue had just quit being heroes earlier so it would make sense for Reed to help arm the army against cosmic threats, so even though he is no longer protecting the Earth himself, the army will have the capability to.

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Especially if it was used "against" the FF in the story? I didn't see a single proof of the idea that Reed was the one to create it. Either way, even if he did, it is just a missile.

So Reed just happened to know the exact capabilities of the missile and Johnny just happened to know exactly where it was stationed? Neither of them should even know the name of the missile, much less its location and capabilities if they didn't create it and give it to the army.

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I really doubt my team would even have difficulties stopping it. I will later post a scan of Highfater handling multiple battleships at the same time.

Even if you could stop it, it would still work as a great distraction.

Occulus - You can spin it any way you want. The bottom line is that the device failed against an enemy who is vastly inferior in comparison to either of my characters.

1. That is incredibly short-sighted. The device was working, it was just not allowed to finish. 2. Either of your characters? So Yhwach is severely underpriced then.

No, he doesn't. He said he "witnessed" novas. Not that he tanked them.

He obviously means he witnessed it up close. If someone hits you with fire, your response will be related to the fact that you have survived worse which is what the Watcher is implying.

I would, if it did. It bothered the Watcher at best. It didn't really drain him.

Except it did. It may have not completely drained him but it did drain him. That is a fact.

So, i just see another example of you overselling a feat here.

Overselling a feat? I get the reason why you say this, I said you were low balling earlier so you claim I am high balling, implying that I only think you are low balling cause I am high balling. However, this doesn't really work when this Watcher feat is one of the weaker feats I have shown. So if I were to oversell a feat, it most certainly wouldn't be this one.

The watcher was bothered, and he destroyed the machine. It failed. Plain and simple

Gotta say, I always hated it when people say "GG no re" "Plain and simple" after a point. It is never that simple.

And, before we go on. I want to say that i know that the Watchers are powerful. However, they are not all equally strong at all times. Galactus has defeated Uatu (who is in the upper levels among them) while he was "maddeningly hungry".

You mean in the what if the story that isn't canon?

Now you are just being disingenuous. We have seen that it didn't actually drain the watcher. It may have bothered him to a certain degree, but he was far from powerless.

Where did I say Watcher was powerless in the statement you just responded to?

You responded to this statement

"Thanks to my army, you will be bombarded by energy draining attacks, you have much to fear if even one blast can drain a Watcher."

Not really sure what you are talking about. I even searched the whole page for the word and came up with only two results (didn't have every spoiler block open but as you can see the draining tech tab was open).

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Both times you were the one saying it

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In fact, my initial statement was that the gun instantly weakened the Watcher. I didn't say it made him powerless. I still stand by my original statement. So the only one being disingenuous here is you.

Power Ray, Amps and How Your Claims Work Against You

In this same post, you make two conflicting claims. It does seem like you are tripping over your feet trying to pump out too many feats too quickly. So, let's see how you contradicted yourself in the prison bit, you said:

Big claim but let's see.

You can't have it both ways. Either you can amp him by adding energy for him to manipulate, or he doesn't manipulate energy at all, and thus doesn't get anything from that machine.

Didn't you literally post a scan of the Thing getting stronger via cosmic energy? Are you saying he manipulates cosmic energy too? Because he obviously does not. Wonder Man is made out of Ionic energy but he doesn't manipulate ionic energy. Namor gets stronger in the water but he doesn't manipulate water. Hulk gets stronger with anger but doesn't manipulate anger. This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

Darkness = cosmic entity. Cosmic entity gives Jackie power to manipulate darkness. Not energy, darkness.

The next claim you made that goes against your strategy is using those attacks on Yhwach. You see, Yhwach can become immune to darkness manipulation give as there is direct proof of that. So, the weapons Jackie creates are either a.) Darkness, and thus ignorable by Yhwach or b.) energy, and thus counteracted by the Prison's "Singularity" protocol.

He creates matter in the molecular with darkness. Some of the things he creates are darkness, but not everything he creates is darkness, at least not entirely. It is most certainly not some kind of energy.

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The Redirecting

1. I have already shown feats of Highfather using his energy manipulation to turn back the attacks from others. I gave you THIS FEAT of him redirecting White Lantern energies and the energies of the Guardians. But, i guess you might want more. Here:

He also manipulated the attack of Godly Empowered Mr Miracle (Would be way above the limits of this tourney).

We both know I was talking about Highfather specifically using the motherbox to make weapons fire back at their users.

2. Ah, the typical "my weapon is different, show me the exact feat of it working on my exact type of weapon"... First of all, Anti-Matter doesn't break the laws of physics. You are the one making the claim that energy manipulation wouldn't work on your ray weapons. The onus is on you to prove that claim.

And this my friends is called master level redirection (more on this in the For the Voters section). Now let me get this straight, You made the claim that your Motherbox can "utilize the motherbox once again to reverse the polarity of the weapons" and yet when pressed for proof you try to deflect the BoP to the person asking for proof? And yes folks, I asked for proof, I never made any sort of claim, unlike Chime.

Here is what I said

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As you can see, I have highlighted Chime's claim and as you can see in point 2, I didn't make any claims, I merely asked Chime to prove his claim. I find this incredibly revealing because it shows that Chime doesn't have any feats of the Motherbox reversing the polarity of anti-matter weaponry, which is why he tried to pull a BoP switcheroo on me, but I'm not going to bite because I know that I made no claims while he made one which he has yet to prove.

3. Army of Darklings - So, my team has a total of 7 motherboxes that can do that for them.

Then prove that you can do it to among the 7 of you.

And, it's not like Highfather will let your team shoot away. He will be returning fire. And his attacks can easily cover the entire hemisphere as i have proven in this post.

4. Energy manipulation wouldn't work on the entropy gun to redirect the shot. However, Yhwach can just go Donald Trump on your ass and BUILD A WALL. See that building? That was Yhwach's doing, and it took him like a second. He has city level TK.

I already countered the wall, and my counter to dispersion will be the same. So my counter to dispersion is that Jackie can just make more

As for walls, walls are nothing. Jackie can create darklings anywhere, inside your walls or even inside your body

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He does it again here

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This is something I mentioned before as well. But in addition to this darklings can be incredibly tiny too

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So Jackie can create an army both inside and outside of your body. I don't think you can dispel darklings inside your own bodies, and the darklings would still be armed with advanced weaponry (though obviously not as powerful). Darklings can even grow in size even inside your body.

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Darklings Count as Summons

I skipped the rest of the tech section cause there isn't much to say, but to this

You do know he didn't make the defective on defective on purpose? It was defective because he failed to do it right. Stick to the feats you have.

I am sticking to the feats I have and the feats I have is shutting down the mind of a solar system level threat.

Look, just because you create something, that doesn't mean it is not a summon per tourney rules.

Except it does though.

So, to make it as clear as i possibly can - you are not the first to try this, we have had this argument multiple times, and just because you are creating something, doesn't mean you can ignore the tourney rules. So, for now, let's say they are summons.

We have had this discussion in the PM many times over by now. As long as it is autonomous, it is a summon. If Jackie has to actively "drive" it, it is a construct.

I see zero evidence and only vague references to PM. ET has said this when asked what a summon is

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And Darklings aren't summoned. He also says this

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Saying that if constructs are sentient then they follow summon rules (which I believe you are referring too) but darklings merely act sentient, as I showed before they follow Jackie and Jackie controls them subconsciously. Unlike Meeseeks, darklings do not follow Jackie because they have to, they follow Jackie because that is the only thing they can do. Meeseeks have rebelled against their creators while darklings have only fought Jackie when controlled by another darkness manipulator. At least the less complex ones are non-sentient, humanoids can do whatever but I'm not making an army of humanoid darklings cause that will just nerf me and would take too long.

Imagining Darklings are Constructs, and Beating Them as Such

But, to show that i understand your point. You are claiming that the darklings are essentially the same as the Lantern constructs.

Not exactly, but if you want to compare him to a Lantern, think Alex Nero.

If that was true, they would disappear/shut down the instant Jackie was knocked unconscious. So, i will ask you, do they? And there are 2 reasons i am asking this, the first is that i really want to know, and the second is that it changes how this debate works.

The answer is no. If Jackie was put to sleep or KO'd, the darklings would likely remain. But if he is killed or telepathically shut down, his creations would disappear. This is because of the important distinction between being a construct powered by consciousness, and a construct being powered by subconsciousness. For example, Lantern constructs have to constantly be powered by concentration unlike Jackie's. This is also different from being completely automatous since they still depend on Jackie to exist.

Remember, my team gets basically full knowledge thanks to Yhwach, if Darklings are constructs, and thus indeed only depend on Jackie to direct their actions, they become useless if he is knocked out, my team would know about it. So, what do they need to do? Simple, knock him out. The next question is "can they?"

Like I said, a knock out wouldn't work. Your only way of taking out Jackie and all of his creations is to kill him, but that is easier said than that since he can heal by the atom and even death itself couldn't kill him.

Well, he has been knocked out before. And it didn't really take anywhere near the amount of power Izaya possesses.

Now I won't lie, that is pretty impressive. But not impressive enough. See, I have 2 main counters for this, the first being teleportation. Because you have to remember that Jackie has the Spider Sense perk. Spider Sense means he cannot be caught by surprise.

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Peter has also used to dodge explicitly light speed attacks, in two separate occasions.

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Now unline Peter, Jackie can just teleport away from any attack before it hits. It would be as simple as walking away.

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Another scan

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And remember our battlefield this time around is an entire solar system, which luckily for me, is already covered in darkness. So once you try to attack, Jackie can sense it then disappear before the attack hits, before reappearing a thousand miles away.

The second counter would be healing. Now you already know that Jackie can heal by the atom, but may you think that it isn't enough, and that's fine, that's not I am referencing here. What I am referencing is Jackie healing from the Sun Dagger, which he kept inside his own body.

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As you can see, it is directly said that he had to constantly heal his own body. Yet it doesn't even seem to affect Jackie. This is super impressive because it's the Sun Dagger, made from pure light by Angelus (powerful being, basically the god of light)

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And the core of a sun, which is where it gets its name

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Another scan, this time saying the blade contained the light of the sun's past and future

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This is obviously a hella impressive feat as, once again, Jackie kept the Sun Dagger inside his own chest and constantly healed from the damage while walking around like a champ. In fact, I am pretty sure he fights with it inside of him.

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What is most impressive about this, is that when Jackie breaks the dagger and releases all of its power, it destroys the heart of the darkness (the heart of the darkness entity)

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However, Jackie is seemingly uninjured by the blast of light, not including his armor dissipating of course. So let me recap that, Jackie constantly healed from a dagger made out of pure light and the core of a sun, made by Angelus, stuck into his chest, then when he released the power he destroys the heart of the darkness while looking relatively fine himself. And the next time we see Jackie, he is the creator of a new universe. Yeah, that's how boss he is (and that makes two of my characters creators of universes, hey-o!), and that's the damage output he can heal from.

Now, I don't want to say Jackie can take star level attacks, cause it doesn't sit right with me, but Highfather's attack was far from star level anyway and I'm pretty sure Jackie can heal from that attack. He isn't priced the same way Surfer is for no reason.

An attack such as this one will definitely knock Jackie out. I mean, he was once knocked out by a regular tank:

No, it is far from definite.

And this feat wasn't something from the beginning of Jackie's career in the nineties. It came from a comic published in 2010, when he already had his history of higher end feats.

Here's the problem, that showing is just crazy. In the same comic, the writers show that Jackie can tank a shot from a tank and get back up in seconds. Now this was a WP round and not a tank shell but still.

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And even that would be a low showing for Jackie because in one of his very first showings in his 2010 run, he falls out from the sky without any protection and is fine

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So a tank shouldn't even faze him, much less knock him out. So that isn't a reliable showing you brought up there, especially considering the feats I have shown before. But that doesn't matter much because as Jackie notes, he has grown better with the darkness through his time using it.

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Which means low showing from the past don't really apply any longer.

Now, you can argue that this is a low-end feat. However, what Izaya did in the scan right above this one is billions upon billions times better than what knocked Jackie out. AS you can see, Izaya's attack was larger than New Genesis.

You can't use a faulty scan then say it doesn't matter if it's faulty because your showing is that much better. Because it doesn't change the fact that it is a faulty scan.

And, once Jackie is knocked out, all of the weapons, all of the tech, all of the armies disappear. Otherwise, they would be summons. Not constructs.

No. That has been stated by only you. The rules say nothing even indicating that, and from what ET has said, only things summoned into battle or fully autonomous beings are counted as summons, darklings are neither. Which means that if what you are saying is the case then I got screwed over by unclear rules, and I overpaid for the Darknesss (since his main gimmick is darklings, I had to buy Reed and Manchester Black to make his weapon creation above street level).

However, you did bring up a planetary feat for Jackie that you could attempt to use to justify the notion of him standing a chance to survive a blast such as this one. So, let's debunk it.

Too bad for you, I don't even need that feat.

Debunking Some of Jackie's Higher-End Feats

Both of those scans come from The Darkness #75. In that issue, Jackie visits a fortune-teller and that person tells him the story of his death.

So, to put it bluntly, neither of your scans actually happened is the hard counter. And the soft counter is that the future Jackie could be vastly superior to current Jackie.

That's Jackie's future, not a different version, which means they have the same capabilities. As for the older Jackie being stronger, older Jackie died after a planetary blast and "current" Jackie held a dagger powered by the soul of the sun in his chest with no problem. I say "current" because EoS Jackie did the Sun Dagger feat and that was way after the fortuen teller thing.

Now, i will focus onto the functional debunk.

The planetary explosion killed Jackie. Plain and simple. How on Earth are you using the showing of him dying as a feat for him is beyond me.

Okay, well here's the thing, I never showed Jackie dying as a feat. I showed Jackie containing that blast within the cave, it was only let loose when it was cut free. So before that, Jackie was containing it.

It was made clear that the only reason Magdalena could have fired off that planet-busting attack was because she spent untold centuries accruing the power for that feat. Otherwise, she is so far below planetary she wouldn't even understand the meaning of the word. She is essentially a high-street/Low-mid tier character.

It was accumulating power, and Jackie was contacting that power until his container was cut, which let the light loose and busted the planet. Meaning Jackie contains that planet level power. Which again, is a way lesser feat than Jackie containing the Sun Dagger's power within him then using all of its power point blank and not dying.

The Prison Question

Your big point is that the prison Highfather used against the Lanterns was created solely for the use on the lanterns themselves.

Yes. Because it only has shown defense measures against energy manipulators. So maybe not only Lanterns but certainly not Jackie.

For that, you have no proof.

Dam, I wonder how that feels.

The scans clearly read as simply counteracting any energy manipulation. To prove that, i have brought up the example of Parallax, as it proves, on panel that it doesn't only work on the constructs. Now, to that, you offered 4 separate counters. Allow me to showcase them.

I didn't say it only works on constructs.

This is factually incorrect. Allow me to Explain. In Sinestro Corps 11 and 12, we see Mongul creating tech capable of draining power rings to 0% charge in seconds. However, Parallax was immune to it as explained by Dez and Sinestro.

Pretty sure I never claimed he was a construct. I am almost certain that I said he was an emotional entity made out of energy, which the prison specifically counters.

Your next counter was that Parallax was weak "AF" these days. And, to prove that, you show him beating on Superman, but Superman managing to cause pain to it. Let's see what happened when Jackie and Superman fought Jackie (note, these are two separate pages, not saying they happened consecutively, just pointing out that Superman beat Jackie soundly).

You are aware that, that isn't the same Superman, right? I mean you make this claim

So, to me, it sounds like Jackie and Parallax are definitely at similar power levels. With Parallax being above Jackie.

Which makes me doubt that you know that there are different versions of Superman. The one Jackie fought was much more powerful than the one Parallax fought. Also, Jackie was beating Supes until the sun killed his darklings and Supes went all out with his HV.

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Jackie is not that weak to the sun nowadays btw.

Your final counter is that your abilities are just too different from what the prison has shown to counter. To which, of course, there can never be found a direct answer until the exact same setting happens. After all, i could just use the argument that Jackie has never fought a God before and claim that none of his abilities would work on gods. And secondly, the Darkness sounds a lot like Parallax in the posts you used to describe them. I mean, Parallax is theentity of Living Fear. He is far from being just a construct. And, the Darkness is, well, the entity of dark. While you could argue that differences make it difficult for the prison to work, you can't really make a case for immunity.

From a certain point of view, that could make sense. But to me, it's just not clicking. I mean, sure the Darkness and Parallax are both entities. But one energy and the other darkness. They are basically opposites in terms of power type. In Jackie's universe darkness manipulation is treated like a physical power, which is why he doesn't have darkness blasts or anything like that, he only has darkness transmutation which he can use to create fire or similar things. Meanwhile, energy manipulation is obviously not a physical power in the traditional sense.

Furthermore, i need only to counteract the energy flow in the weapons you are making. And, from what i have seen, i could.

Which is why I brought up the unstable molecules which is not energy and could eat through your prison, no problem.

You used that term multiple times, however, it doesn't mean what you think it means. I have clearly set the boundaries (or limits, you know the "L" of the NLF) of the prison. It counters energy manipulation up to the power level of Parallax. How on Earth can that be a Non-Limit Fallacy, if both the scope of the power and the level of the power it operates on is defined clearly? In no point during the comic was it said that the prison counters "emotional energy" it simply states it counteracts energy.

You took the word energy and somehow applied it to darkness manipulation. That is NFL because you are either saying that anything weaker than Parallax, regardless of whether or not it's power is vastly different, is affected by the prison, when there is no showing even indicating this.

Yhwach

She can bring back from the brink of death. When you are so close to dying the Black Racer is already there to collect your soul. However, that is not going to be a problem.

That is close to death, not dead. If you have your brain mushed, you would be dead, instantly, not just close to it.

Yhwach will gain immunity during prep time. SImple as that. He looks into the future. Anything he sees, he understands, what he understands is his ally and thus cannot be harmed by it. This would be an NLF, however, i have shown him developing Immunity to Darkness Manipulation. A direct proof he could be immune to Jackie.

But you are missing that feat for Black's TK. So there is no indication taht he can gain immunity, and by your own admission that would be NLF.

He was in the end taken out by Ishida's "Anti-Thesis"+Silver arrow. The Anti-Thesis makes Uryuu Ishida capable of turning his enemies powers against them.

That's not Tk.

Yeah, good luck tagging someone who has future sight and can move at mach 11,000. I mean, sure, it could potentially work, however, there is no way in hell 200 fodder soldiers would ever manage to get a shot in the vicinity of Yhwach before my plan works and your team is beaten.

Mach 11,000? Is taht supposed to be impressive? Black kills him in seconds, and if he can't for some reason, he can slow Yhwach down so he can be bombarded by attacks.

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Avatar image for major_hellstrom
#87 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

Part 2

1. Black is your TK guy, he does have Spidey sense, however, that is a very limited form of precog utterly incapable of outplaying Yhwach's future sight. Remember, he effortlessly tagged Ichigo with these traps, and Ichigo is massively hypersonic.

Just because you have a superior future sight to the Spidey Sense, doesn't somehow make it irrelevant. So he would still get a warning before you attack, and I already showed Black reacting to Superman's heatvision, which is comfortably above Ichigo's reaction speed. So he should be able to use his Tk get to keep those spikes away from him with ease.

2. Darkling is the source of your "indestructible" darkness a. With Darkling out of the picture, Jackie is actually almost embarrassingly weak to light. Any sort of light.

Well here's the thing, you just assumed that. As I already showed, Darkling'spower comes from her clothes, specifically, her dress which extends and creates a sphere of darkness.

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And there is no reason or indication that the cloak would stop working if the wielder gets hurt. In fact, in a big team fight against the Marvel family, Marry Marvel had to force Darkling to drop her sphere of darkness instead of just knocking her out like Captain Marvel did to Ibac. Likely because knocking her out wouldn't have solved the darkness issue.

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So yeah, there is no evidence that taking Darkling out would also take her cloak out since she has only been defeated by being forced to drop her cloak or having her entire sphere be dispersed. And remember, Darkling's powers come from an item, so there is also no reason to assume the darkness would disappear if something were to happen to here. But anyway, even assuming she does get taken down, Jackie can just heal or revive her as a darkling since he can heal someone cell by cell. Even assuming that he doesn't, Jackie is far from that weak to light.

Take, for example, this regular fire. It completely destroyed the armor he was wearing and made him really weak.

So you say that me using feats from that issue is unusable but then you use feats from that issue when it fits your narrative. Not saying I agree that feats from that issue are unusable, I am just pointing out that it doesn't seem very fair, either both are okay or both aren't. Asides from that, Jackie has taken direct fire from the Witchblade and blocks it easily.

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But not only does he block blasts of fire, he creates blasts of fire as well

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Even his darklings use fire

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So he is clearly not weak to fire at all.

However, that is far from being the only example. In fact, there is an abundance of them. Like when he was depowered by a signal beam. He even get's depowered by regular sunlight.

Well, it's a good thing he gets stronger. Jackie started off as high street and ended being universal, now obviously the Jackie being used here is the one before he became universal in power, I just mention the power creep so you can get an idea. See later on in Jackie's career he beats a powerful light wielder, who is basically the polar opposite of him. In their fight, she blasts Jackie with fire

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And while it does hurt him, he ends up winning that fight by literally forcing her to use up all of her power, and in the end, Jackie is fine and smug about it.

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So quite obviously, the days of sunlight and a spotlight getting the better of him are over. And did I mention that Jackie took a blade made from the light of a sun and hid it inside his own body? Because that's pretty darn impressive. Here is the CV entry of the blade if you thought I was just hyping it up.

A knife made of the coalesced light energy and life force of an entire star system, forged by an ancient Angelus to kill the Darkness.

-CV Wiki

I can go on, and on, and on,

But can you? I don't want to come off too strong, but from the looks of it, you have read 3 issues of the Darkness.

and the fact will remain. His constructs don't hold up to light. Now, let's revisit what it looks like when Highfather lets loose and how much light is involved.

That's powerful, but that isn't "pure light forged out of a star's soul by the weilder of light" levels of power. So I would imagine it would go a bit like this

HIghfather: *Angry scowl*

Jackie: *Smugly making darklings dance on the X-Men and Yhwach's corpses*

Highfather: *Triggered face* before blasting Jackie with light

Jackie:Troll face before teleporting away

*Menacingly staring down Highfather amidst the attack*

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Before cockily proclaiming "Is that the best you can do?"

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And if you think I am wanking the sun dagger feat, you have to remember that it was slicing through the darkness entity itself which is like Jackie on steroids, it even sliced into its very soul

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I am not entirely sure what that's supposed to mean but it looks to me as if Jackie's slice warped it to create a portal to another dimension or something. Here is the next page.

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Which looks comic book manipulation esque, like Jackie is walking through a rip in the very comic. A classic example of comic manipulation is this SBP one, but it can also look like this to some extent, but especially this scan from Gwenpool, notice the background. I point out the visual similarities, because it seemed to be really important to you.

And Yhwach has his own bright attacks too. After all, Quincy arrows shine

Yeah, Jackie is out.

Now that's just insulting to Jackie.

Defending my prolonged rant at the end

Not to mention other context, like Galactus starving to the point of being incapable of beating Quasar.

Yeah and? Annhilus with the Quantum bands (source of Quasar's powers) tanked Galactus' omnidirectional attack which wiped out Annihilation Waves and destroyed the planet Annhilus was on

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And it was confirmed that it was the Bands that made him that strong

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Quasar has also manipulated energy from Thanos

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Also, while even a starving Galactus could wreck your team, you're right, it does diminish the impressiveness by quite a bit, so let's replace it with an equivalent feat. Here Reed with some help, builds a machine capable of defeating Ego and Ego empowered Ronan (who was in the process of team busting).

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Reed did this in a time crunch as Ego had just broken part of the machine

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And the machine did work, it transferred Ego into Quasar, ending the threat.

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Just to give you some context, at this point even a team of some of Earth's greatest mages could not even hold Ego back.

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But not only that, Ego is as powerful if not more powerful than Galactus. Galactus even says that Ego is the most powerful being he has ever faced

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Ego then wrecks the hell out of Galactus (who albeit was starving at the time)

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Galactus says that he is a dust mote in comparison

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He gets beaten so hard than he runs all the way to Earth so that he can ask Thor for help, yes the mighty Galactus was humbled by Ego. He then tells Thor that against Ego he is powerless

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Through when Galactus was not hungry he was able to match Ego so take the statements above with a grain of salt

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Thor later describes the battle saying Galactus exhausted himself in the battle against Ego

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Thor 160-161 and Thor 226 are where these come from btw.

TLDR 1. Galactus not being able to take down Quasar isn't a bad feat for Galactus, it's a good feat for Quasar(especially when Galactus wasn't really trying). 2. Doesn't matter anyway because Reed (with some help) was able to create a device that defeated Galactus with a limited amount of time. 3. Ego is at least just as powerful as Galactus and both entities would absolutely wreck your team.

The scan i gave you still works. The fact that he was later tagged by other enemies means nothing. That would be like saying that Wolverine getting his balls blown off means he is utterly incapable of aim dodging. The ability is still there.

Except Logan conistently aim and bullet dodges while Orion has only done this once (as far as you have shown) and when he did he was later hit by the energy blasts.

But of course, check out the upper portion again to see that i have a lot more to offer when it comes to redirecting attacks than just the motherbox.

Which is all fine and dandy but you have only shown him redirecting attacks from 1 source or when it came to the Guardians, less than a dozen. Doesn't mean you can redirect attacks from 200 to 10,000 sources at the same time.

Yhwach becomes immune during prep. Black dies as a side-note of this fight.

Yhwach has never become immune to TK before.

Jackie's constructs don't bypass durability at all. They were shown to kill people by ripping their flesh apart. SOmething they wouldn't be able to do to Highfather. And Motherboxes can heal from that type of damage in no time flat.

Except they directly strike your vital organs and durability comes from muscles, bones, fat and skin.

Darklings are autonomous and work differently than these constructs. The constructs Ice Man uses are just parts of his body as his "full potential" means he has full control over all water in the world. There were no summons there, just bobby in a really complicated form of a body.

Didn't I just explain how Darklings follow Jackie's subconscious? Only the complex humanoid ones are autonomous.

The New Conclusions

Your Conclusions

You have made a really good team. However, they are all squishy and dependent on each other.

No. They aren't all squishy, I already showed Jackie having a supremely good feat against light so no need to bring it up again.

Take out a single domino and they all topple over.

Except no. In prep, Black would transfer Reed's knowledge into Jackie\switch consciousness meaning both Reed and Black's jobs are done before the battle even starts, and Darkling's job finishes after she releases her cloak since there was no indication that she is needed for her sphere to remain active. So as soon as the battle ends, there is only one major player in my team, and that is Jackie. Now my other team members would work as good support, but they are from from curcial once the battle starts.

Yhwach's traps or Highfather's precise attacks only need to take the Darkling out and your team is set for the picking out.

Except A. We can just revive her endlessly. B. You are also just assuming that she is needed. I mean I get why you would assume that if her sphere were a power she posses, but it isn't, it's an item.

Jackie is so weak to light that he won't be able to maintain his summons/constructs in the sunlight from the moment Darkling is out.

No, no he is not that weak to light. He was that way, once upon a time, but he was able to maintain his darklings even as light was shining directly at them and there is this too.

And then, we have Highfather using a planetary level blast on your team and obliterating them.

You forget that my team will know everything that can and will happen thanks to the Bridge so we can plan for this before it happens. Like teleport away to different parts of the solar system or shrink down to be unseen. Either way, Jackie can take the attack and carry the team without his partners.

Jackie was taken out by a tank shell. Now, i am not lowballing so hard to say that he is a low-building level. But i am saying that a planet-surface level attack that emits a lot of light will instantly take him out.

You are basing your entire argument on a faulty extremely low-end scan at best, an unusable PIS scan at worst. Either way, Jackie taking the Sun Dagger instead of him than living through it exploding, should solidly prove that he takes planet surface attacks.

And that takes out the entirety of your summons/constructs, every single piece of tech, and the fight is over.

Jackie can legit make armies with a thought. He can remake everything in seconds.

Your plan was good, but you were simply outclassed from the get-go regarding power levels.

What's new? Reed takes on Doom, Galactus, Super Skrull, Terrax, Blastaar etc. every single weak, and they all outclass him yet he wins every single week. Meanwhile Black, a mid tier, fights Superman, a top high tier, Jackie not only takes on an an enemy who wields his weakness as its main weapon but he also took on the Darkness itself which is much stronger than he is, and Darkling, whose only power is to create darkness, fights a team of herald tiers. Literally every single member of my team uses their cunning to take on, and sometimes take out, enemies that outclass them.

Highfather is no different especially when he doesn't actually outclass anyone thanks to 3 hours of prep.

1. The Bridge - You lack feats of prep with that bridge in it's entirety. What is the most detail about a character or a fight Reed ever got using the bridge?

He learns the history of entire universes.

2. The Pitch Black - The actual feat has her covering 5000 miles in a couple of minutes.Nothing more. She covers an area of the state during your prep. You have no other quantification here.

Now, this doesn't actually change much of anything, a state or a planet doesn't matter since both are enough to create massive armies armed with plenty tech. But I counter this still because its an example of you pushing your opinions as fact when there is no basis for your claims asides from you finding the contrary to be less plausible.

3. The Devil Quote - Apart for the fact that you shouldn't believe the devil, a statement such as that one doesn't quantify her powers in a meaningful way.

It means the devil considers her power to be above those of planet+ level threats which counts for something.

4. The Mech Armor - Lacks feats, has a single punching showing of a powerful punch. However, that punch doesn't really beat out even the mountain busting blasts Yhwach easily blocked.

If that isn't lowballing then I don't know what is.

5. Draining Tech - Only works half the time, when it does, it can be blocked, dodged, redirected.

It worked every single time I showed it, at best it was destroyed before it could complete the job, but that is does not mean it didn't work. Also try blocking\redirecting\dodging an army's worth of attacks.

6. You Putting Your Foot In Your Mouth- You say Jackie is not an energy manipulator, and then you say he would get amped by a machine that simply supplies energy. Contradiction at it's finest.

Just because you are powered by something, does not mean you manipulate that thing. It's really not a hard concept to grasp. I eat food, I am powered by food, I don't manipulate food, I convert it into a usable energy source such as fats. And even if you somehow don't believe me, there is zero reason to count darkness manip as energy manip.

7. Redirecting - We saw mother box reverse the polarities of weapons and have them fire at their shooters. However, in this post, we can see that Highfather can redirect attacks much more efficiently.

He has only redirected attacks from singular opponents and deflected attacks from a dozen guardians or so, not an army.

8. Darklings - Summons or not

8.1. If Yes - They must fall within limits. Cyclops solos them all

8.2. If No - They can be more powerful. However, taking out Darkling (and we all agree she gets taken out) leaves them open to Cyclops soloing them all again.

The answer is not. Also, Cyclops gets slaughtered. Darklings will eat his eyeballs from the inside of his own body.

9. Jackie Debunks - The best feats for Jackie never actually happened.And, even in that future, he actually dies from the planetary plan.

Except it isn't his best feat, you jumped the gun on this one.

10. The Parallax question - Not an NLF, proven, Parallax is still >= Jackie, Parallax is not just a construct, the prison simply counteracts any energy signature.

Parallax is weaker than Rebirth Superman. Jackie is not weaker than him.

11. The Immunity - Yhwach develops immunity by looking into the future. I limited him only to the abilities he has already shown immunity to and he already is immune to Darkness manipulation.

But not TK.

12. The Traps vs Darkling- You agree that Darkling will die due to his traps. All they have to do. And she is really easy to kill as she lacks durability feats apart for trading a couple of blows with Mary Marvel.

Mary Marvel and the Marvel family were pushing stars around........no seriously. Also if she dies, then so what?

13. The Traps vs Black - Getting the exact overview of the future and planting traps can outplay the Spidey sense. Black has no durability and, once he is out, your team loses their TK/TP Threat.

That's not how it works, your precog doesn't negate Spidey sense. You may have better future vision, but that just means you can see Black not getting tagged in full HD. And if he dies, we can revive him by the cell, and guess what we can do that to Darkling too. Lucky for me reviving isn't restrained by the rules, and it certainly isn't counted as summoning cause Satan is allowed to revive and there is no way he is Spidey level.

14. Conclusion - You have a nice plan, but one that comes with the self-destruct button. Without Darkling, your team simply falls apart.

Based on nothing.

Without her darkness, Jackie loses his powers in the sunlight,

Except he doesn't because if he was that easy to beat, he would have been killed by issue 10.

all of your tech disappears

Even if it does disappear it comes back as quickly as it came.

and my team walks all over who is left standing.

Before getting nuked because Jackie doesn't appreciate getting walked on

My Conclusions

Basically here is what I see your main counters\points were

  1. All the prep stuff

  2. The Prison

  3. Taking my team out and expecting them to fall like dominoes

  4. Planet light blast

  5. Transmutation

But to this I say

  1. We went back and forth on this the entire debate. I still don't change my stance since my previous post.

  2. There is no reason the prison would work on Jackie in my eyes and we have the means to escape using non-energy weapons like unstable molecules or teleportation.

  3. It forgets that my team isn't really important for much outside of prep, and assumes Darkling's spheres vanishes for some unknown reason. Also forgets that Jackie can revive someone by the cell, making them retain their memories and biology, and Black and Reed's powers come from biology so they can be revived and work the exact same way as how they were before.

  4. Jackie had a sun soul in him, containing the sun's past and future light. That didn't even bother Jackie. Your blast isn't as good, and certainly isn't better.

  5. This assumes Highfather can even get that close and can transmute Jackie whose self defense systems bypass even death. Jackie has the capability to transmute himself, so anything Highfather can do to him, can also be reversed.

Now my reasoning as to why my team win can be summoned up as, Reason 1. We just have the tools and versatility to win. We can.....

  1. Take you out from the inside

  2. Have an army barrage you with anti-matter tech which took down a Celestial and Franklin Richards

  3. Have an army barrage you with draining tech, which in the low scale weakened the rogue Watcher, and on a high scale took down Ego\Cosmic Cubes\Galactus and others

  4. Have an army barrage you from the inside of your own body

  5. Have an army barrage you with wacky tech like atom igniters, shirking tech, hallucinations and others

  6. Have an army do all of the above, which is what will happen

Reason 2. We have the capability to counter your team to a tee. Some examples would be

  1. Depowering Highfather. We depowered beings as strong and stronger than he is, and he is no different than they are.

  2. Entropy Gun spam. Entropy gun is like kryptonite to energy beings like Celestials and likely Highfather as well, but now thanks to the army we can spam.

  3. Melting your prison. Unstable molecules would just eat through your prison.

  4. Modulus vs Yhwach. Unless Yhwach can become immune to having his very components deleted with an attack that ignores durability, which based on shown feats he cannot, he gets deleted. Modulus counters him pretty well.

  5. Surface wipe. Revival and sun dagger feat, this post talked a lot about both points so I won't go further.

For the Voters

So for this section I will talk directly to the voters to give you my reason for why I win this debate and this fight.

The Fight Comparison

So before I get on to the comparisons, I will rundown 3 things we have agreed on. 1. Jackie can create Reed's tech. 2. Jackie can create an army of darklings wielding Reed's tech. 3. Darkling can create a sphere of impenetrable darkness. 4. My team has a master prepper and 3 hours of prep. While we may disagree on the army and sphere size, we do agree that they can be made which is all that matters for this comparison.

Now, for the real comparison, here I have compiled every Highfather feat Chime has posted throughout this entire debate, including feats for the Motherbox (but not of the prison or bomb cause it's not something he can use like the box). Apologies if I happened to miss one by accident.

Here are the three physical feats Chime showed in his opener.

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And here are eight (which is all of them) energy\matter manipulation scans.

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Now if you look at your scans, only two of them are actually above Silver Surfer level if we're being honest, or three of them depending on how you count. Those scans would be Highfather manipulating energy attacks from an amped Mr Miracle.

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And Highfather dispersing White Lantern energy

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Now I do have my qualms with these showings. The first scan isn't visually impressive at all, and I highly doubt Mr Miracle attempt to kill or even hurt a man he was asking a question to (because that would be stupid) and the in the second set of scans Kyle literallygives Highfather the power and it isn't really impressive to disperse power that was given to you.

But even ignoring that, if we compare those feats to these

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1. Completely depowering Galactus. 2. Depowering Ego and trapping him in Quasar. 3. Killing a Celesital in one shot. 4. Depowering a Cosmic Cube. 5. Creating a device to depower 30 cosmic cubes. 6. Shutting down Franklin's mind in one shot.

Not only do I have more quantity I also have better quality feats. Because while Highfather has showings of manipulating the energy of powerful beings Reed has showings of depowering. And obviously depowering > manipulation so therefore Reed's tech's feats > Highfather's feats.

But that's not the end of the comparison here, because if we take a look at the 4 points I mentioned earlier in this section, you would know that at the very least there will be an army of 200 beings with tech on or above Highfather's level. But not only are the weapons powerful, they excel at depowering energy manipulators like Highfather.

That right there is the core of the debate, if you take out all the fat and get into the meat of things, this is my entire argument. Only presenting this comparison based on presented feats and agreed upon facts, I do honestly think that my team is objectively superior.

TLDR: Highfather's two best feats are good but not better than Reed's six best feats and Reed has the advantage of having an army while his tech and can keep healing. So Reed with all his tech vs Highfather might go to Highfather (though I would say otherwise) but Reed with an army and the Darkness on his side all armed with his tech vs Highfather, and Highfather gets wrecked.

The Debate

First things first, this section is not here to bash Chime or be salty about him. Because honestly, I respect the guy, in fact, I am doing this section because he suggested I do a "For The Voters" section before we even knew we were going up against each other. Anyway, in this section, I will give my thoughts on this debate as a whole.

So first things first, the biggest things I observed was the fact that Chime actually had a debating strategy, and didn't just use counter to counter like most do. Now his debating strategy involved a lot of positioning and redirecting, this means that he is always able to position himself as "above me" in a way and redirect the focus of the debate to me.

So in an issue where the BoP is shared, we would both make claims, but Chime would always ask me for evidence of my claims and try to poke holes in my argument instead of supporting his own. So basically he would always make sure to place me in the spotlight while staying out of it himself (positioning) and he is able to stay out of the spotlight by constantly redirecting my arguments back at be (redirecting). This would also make him the "default", so if I was unsuccessful in convincing you voters, you would default to believing Chime's claims.

An example for redirecting would be, if I say "How would you counter (blank)" his response would be "Prove (blank) can do (blank)"

As you can see there he wiggled his way into a position where he was basically saying I had to prove something to him, which would give the impression that he is above me.

Now, this isn't inherently a bad thing and takes skill to do, but it does not make up for lack of evidence. What do I mean? Well take a look at this

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There are 7 sections from Chime's second post, and none of them have scans or even links to scans. In comparison, zoomed out all the way, two snippets don't even cover two sections in my post, and basically, every section of my post has at least one scan.

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You can check for yourself, zoom out and scroll around the debate. You will find that I at least try to back up everything I say and claim with a scan. Whereas Chime rarely gives any sort of evidence and his arguments are usually backed up by his perspective and internal logic. A perfect example between our approaches can be seen in the "Arithmetic vs Geometric Growth" sections, where I tried to back up my claims with 3 scans, and while I admit they aren't definitive, Chime only backed up his claims using his interpretation of the scans, no evidence required.

In fact, as I pointed out earlier, for this entire debate he only presented a total of 13 Highfather scans. In one post I probably match or beat that number.

TLDR: Debates are about who presented and defended their arguments better, not who is right. This means that the side with the better evidence should get the point and while I won't make any claims about my evidence, I will say that it is a fact that Chime does not possess much backing for his claims because he relied on redirection and positioning.

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#88 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio
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#90 Posted by shirso (5478 posts) - - Show Bio

Will try.

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#91 Posted by Au_141 (1202 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll vote tomorrow

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#92 Posted by Kevd4wg (14288 posts) - - Show Bio

My god, that last post is so long, I'll try and vote later

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#93 Posted by Chimeroid (9274 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg said:

My god, that last post is so long, I'll try and vote later

Yeah, when i started reading, i was going to reply to it to correct some of his mistakes, but i just couldn't make counters for a 100 page long post. (Literally, it is 100 pages in a doc file)

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#94 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@kevd4wg said:

My god, that last post is so long, I'll try and vote later

Yeah, when i started reading, i was going to reply to it to correct some of his mistakes, but i just couldn't make counters for a 100 page long post. (Literally, it is 100 pages in a doc file)

Looks like it was a great thing to make my post long after all.

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#95 Edited by Chimeroid (9274 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid said:
@kevd4wg said:

My god, that last post is so long, I'll try and vote later

Yeah, when i started reading, i was going to reply to it to correct some of his mistakes, but i just couldn't make counters for a 100 page long post. (Literally, it is 100 pages in a doc file)

Looks like it was a great thing to make my post long after all.

The new UNBEATABLE tactic. MAke a hugeass post and have your enemies just quit. Also, make it in doc, so it can't have formatting and make replying hell :) If you opened with that i might have conceded immediately :D

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#96 Posted by Kevd4wg (14288 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom said:
@chimeroid said:
@kevd4wg said:

My god, that last post is so long, I'll try and vote later

Yeah, when i started reading, i was going to reply to it to correct some of his mistakes, but i just couldn't make counters for a 100 page long post. (Literally, it is 100 pages in a doc file)

Looks like it was a great thing to make my post long after all.

The new UNBEATABLE tactic. MAke a hugeass post and have your enemies just quit. Also, make it in doc, so it can't have formatting and make replying hell :) If you opened with that i might have conceded immediately :D

Thank you for the advise, I will be sure to use it at every opportunity.

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#97 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't wanna read all this lol

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#98 Edited by TheWatcherKing (18960 posts) - - Show Bio

@_kingoflatveria said:

I don't wanna read all this lol

Although I don't either it's not like anyone is forcing you to do it.

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#99 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18101 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom said:
@chimeroid said:
@kevd4wg said:

My god, that last post is so long, I'll try and vote later

Yeah, when i started reading, i was going to reply to it to correct some of his mistakes, but i just couldn't make counters for a 100 page long post. (Literally, it is 100 pages in a doc file)

Looks like it was a great thing to make my post long after all.

The new UNBEATABLE tactic. MAke a hugeass post and have your enemies just quit. Also, make it in doc, so it can't have formatting and make replying hell :) If you opened with that i might have conceded immediately :D

Best tactic. Switch Google Doc post to CV post once opponent calls for votes.

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#100 Posted by Chimeroid (9274 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid said:
@major_hellstrom said:
@chimeroid said:
@kevd4wg said:

My god, that last post is so long, I'll try and vote later

Yeah, when i started reading, i was going to reply to it to correct some of his mistakes, but i just couldn't make counters for a 100 page long post. (Literally, it is 100 pages in a doc file)

Looks like it was a great thing to make my post long after all.

The new UNBEATABLE tactic. MAke a hugeass post and have your enemies just quit. Also, make it in doc, so it can't have formatting and make replying hell :) If you opened with that i might have conceded immediately :D

Best tactic. Switch Google Doc post to CV post once opponent calls for votes.

Goddamn, taking it to the next level :)