2018 High Tier PYP 1st Edition RD2: King_hellstorm vs Chimeroid(Open for votes)

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#1 Edited by emperorthanos- (16787 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 2 of the 2018 High Tier PYP

@thedeputy

Characters

  • The Darkness (6)
  • Darkling (1)
  • Reed Richards (2)
  • Manchester Black (3)
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

Perks:

  • Extra Character Points 2 (5)
  • No Friendly Fire (5)
  • 3 hours of pre
  • Spider Sense Black 1
  • Spidey Sense for Darkness (1)

Versus

@chimeroid

Characters

  • Highfather - 7
  • Yhwach - 3
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Perks

  • Magic immunity 8
  • 1 hour of prep anywhere - 5
  • X-Men - 2

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. No time manipulation.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Summons stronger than 616 spider-man.
  8. Summons are limited to 200
  9. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote is unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet inside a Solar System like others, with no other people on it except for the fighters.

No Caption Provided

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#3 Edited by TheDeputy (119 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid Go first please, I don't know who that manga guy is or how your going to use High Father. I may concede forfeit based on what you put out cause I suddenly got busy.

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#4 Edited by Revan- (7959 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Edited by Chimeroid (9270 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedeputy: will try to post ASAP. However i would strongly advise against conceding. You have one of the best teams in this tourney by a mile.

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#6 Posted by TheDeputy (119 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Based on teams, I have a good shot. Based on skill, it's not looking so good.

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#7 Posted by Chimeroid (9270 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedeputy: @king_hellstorm

Izaya the Inheritor

Did you think that just because I cloak myself in gentleness and persuasion I lack power?

No Caption Provided

Izaya the Inheritor, was a warrior of New Genesis, and is now the undisputed Ruler of the New Gods who dwell on it. He is Darkseid's counterpart (and brother in N52), and the protector of the Source who seeks to bring peace to the multiverse.

Powers and Abilities

Highfather is one of the most powerful New Gods out there. This includes both his physical abilities and the various powers he can use from his access to the Source. He is powerful enough to match Darkseid in physical combat. But, more about that at the later note as he is not very likely to even have to engage your team in combat physically.

Physical Powers

For now, i will just give a very short list of feats.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
1. Matches Darkseid 2. Tanks a planetary attack 3. Has MFTL travel speed.

We can agree that he is definitely not powerless if it comes to close combat.

Energy Projection and Manipulation

Stops Kyle's unrestrained use of the Life Equation and blocks attacks from 5 Guardians of Oa.
Stops Kyle's unrestrained use of the Life Equation and blocks attacks from 5 Guardians of Oa.

Now, Izaya was never really known for loving to brawl it out. Instead, he usually likes to keep his hands clean (with the exception of killing Steppenwolf - an act of personal revenge). So, let's take a peek at what he can do. For starters, the most basic use of the Source's energy would be creating an energy blast. In one storyline, Orion was having difficulties defeating Bedlam's robo-copies. This was due to the fact that Darkseid was empowering Bedlam through the Omega Beams. Orion even resorted to using the full power of the Astro Force

No Caption Provided

So, naturally, Orion called out for help, and Highfather replied. How? By simultaneously destroying not one, but 6 of these robots with blasts that traversed the universe to hit them.

No Caption Provided

Yhwach

Everything in this world exists to be taken by me!

No Caption Provided

If you have read a lot of my high tier debates, you have probably noticed that i like using Kings/Rulers in debates.And, Ywhach is no exception. To put it very simply, he is the king of the Quincy. But he is actually a lot more than that. He is the son of the Soul King and his (short-term) successor. And, while he is a villain, he is not truly evil, for he just sought out order and peace. He hates confrontation and thus always tries to end it as quickly and as efficiently as possible. That is, of course, unless there is another goal he has in mind. However, we are not here for the character study. We are here for his battle prowess.

Powers and Abilities

Yhwach has way too many powers for me to cover all of them. However, i will mention the ones that will be important for this battle. For starters, let us quickly cover his physicals.

Physical Abilities:

To be as direct as humanly possible, there is not much i can do apart for scaling him off of others. After all, he only appears in one story and he mostly fights other characters. His only truly quantified feat is blitzing Ichibei from a distance of 1000 ri (around 4,000 kilometers) - So, the quantified speed puts him at mach 11,000. Which is pretty decent if i do say so myself. But, back to scaling:

VS Ichigo
VS Ichigo

Here, Ichigo is powered up to the most powerful version of him we have ever seen. It includes all of his powers being activated at once. And, not only was Yhwach capable of reacting to the attack, he was also capable of catching Ichigo's blade with his hand. And Ichigo was capable of deflecting Thousands of supersonic blades (if not millions) at the same time all the way back when he first used his Bankai. Since them, he has had multiple various power ups. A weaker version of ichigo was capable of accidentally destroying mountain ranges as a result of his battle.

The Almighty

For all of his various powers his most powerful ability is his "The Almighty" schrift. I don't know if you are aware of this, but i am actually the first one to use the ability to look into the future in this tournament. And it seems like the strategy is liked by many, after all, pretty much everyone is aiming for it now. Well, i am doing it again. Yhwach Bach has that ability. But his is on a higher level than any other we have seen in this tourney so far. Allow the scans to explain:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3
Btw, the attack mentioned in the first scan did not land. the scan rule prevents me from posting that page too.

While various characters can get glimpses of future, like your own team with the "bridge" Reed made, those are just glimpses, video showings of a possible future. Unlike those Yhwach has complete overview of possible futures. And, while we are at it, he has the ability to rewrite those he doesn't like, but that is both Reality Warping and Time Manipulation, so i won't be going into that. However, for the prep time at hand, this will definitely be a neat capability.

The Prep Time:

The first thing Highfather will do is passing out Motherboxes to all of my teammembers, including the X-Men team. (i didn't write much about them as i don't yet see the need to call them into action).

Yhwach will know of all possible futures in regards to this fight before they happen. And will thus be capable of formulating a plan with Highfather that involves the least amount of conflict. And that plan matches exactly what Highfather had planned for during the Godhead arc, when the Lanterns were coming to fight the Gods.

Namely, when the Lantern tribes combined their powers and decided to attack New Genesis Highfather just booted them into his prison cells.

No Caption Provided

But, right now, of course, it seems like there is nothing stopping them from getting out. Well, of course that is not true. These prison cells are as advanced as anything in comics can be. Allow me to demonstrate:

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The Ending

As you can see, there is no easy way to escape this prison. However, if your team has a chance to do it, Yhwach will be able to see it. If that happens, my team would have to react. So, remember those Energy Attacks Highfather has, that destroyed six robots, when the Astro force couldn't even dent one? Well, they would be coming for you. However, that is the worst case scenario. Another nifty ability Highfather has are his alpha bullets. In the scan i have linked there, Izaya is using his Alpha bullets to gather the Forever people that Darkseid banished across space and time. Needless to say, it worked.

Meaning that Izaya can simply put them back in the cage if they try getting out, before having to resort to killing your team.

With all of this, i believe i have sufficiently laid out the basics of the abilities of my team and the strategy i will use. If you have any questions, do not hesitate to ask, can't wait to see your reply.

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#8 Posted by HigherPower (12407 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: I don't think you have to adhere to the scan rule in CaVs; could be wrong.

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#9 Posted by Revan- (7959 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

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#11 Posted by TheWatcherKing (18883 posts) - - Show Bio

Inb4 concession.

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#12 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldkingthanos: Wait a minute, I didn't see the option to buy street level teams this edition.

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#13 Posted by emperorthanos- (16787 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_hellstorm: Really. I accidentally deleted the original signs up so I'm not sure but they are there in the repost

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#14 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by Chimeroid (9270 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldkingthanos: Wait a minute, I didn't see the option to buy street level teams this edition.

To be fair, a 1000 Grant Ward shield agents is a lot more useful than the X-Men team. I was just hoping i get the chance to showcase the Beast :D

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#16 Edited by emperorthanos- (16787 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: @king_hellstorm: I guess if Chime is ok with it. you can go for one of the teams. By replacing one or 2 of your current perks

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#17 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio
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#18 Posted by Chimeroid (9270 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: @king_hellstorm: I guess if Chime is ok with it. you can go for one of the teams. By replacing one or 2 of your current perks

To be clear, i was perfectly fine with it, i just saw that he declined so i didn't bother replying. (subtle bump for t4vs)

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#19 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: T4V's don't matter

Only people on ET's callout list are tagged lol

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#20 Posted by APEX_pretador (21469 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Well, I might as well try. Listen to this as you read my post.

Introducing my Four Housemen of Apocalypse.

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The Darkness

Jackie Estacado is the current host of The Darkness present on Earth and is among the greatest and most powerful hosts ever known. He is a former hitman for The Franchetti Mafiaafter he was adopted and recruited by Frankie Franchettiunder Sonatine's instructions at age 6. He is the twin brother of Capris Castiglioneand the son of Danny Estacado and an unknown prostitute and was born somewhere in New York City, New York.

He retired from Frankie's service after his encounter with Batman, which encouraged him to turn Frankie over to the authorities and retire from the mob, but at the cost of his girlfriend Jenny Romano, whom Frankie murdered in retaliation. Torn with grief, Jackie led Frankie to an abandoned warehouse soaked in gasoline and burned both himself and Frankie to death.

He spent some time in Hell until The Darkness brought him back to life. He was blackmailed into working for Frankie's cousin Paulie Franchetti for some time, until he killed him as well and took control of The Franchetti Mafia. While possessed by The Darkness, he had sex with and impregnated a comatose Sara Pezzini, making him the father of Hope Pezzini. He was a drug lord in Sierra Munoz along with Professor Kirchner until he was betrayed and nearly killed by The Darkness himself, casting his soul into Hell. Jackie also helped to destroy The Sovereign, but at the cost of Leonard Kim's life.

The Darknes.wikia
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Manchester Black

Manchester Black was the Union Jack wearing leader of a team of super-powered antiheroes known as The Elite. Very little is known about the Englishman's background; what little that is known include insinuations that he was abused both physically and sexually by his parents while growing up. Manchester later says that he used to love heroes, but when he grew up he realized that the only way to truly stop the villains was to kill them.

DC Wiki
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Darkling

She isn't popular to have a wiki entry, so I will; just post her origin. Straight from the comics.

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World's Finest #278
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Mr. Fantastic

Reed Richards, also known as Mr. Fantastic, is the leader of the Fantastic Four. He can stretch his body to great distances due to his exposure to cosmic rays while in space. He is also considered to be one of the smartest men alive.

Prep Time

Basically my prep time will be split into 3 parts, those are the

  1. Pre-prep
  2. General prep
  3. Specific prep

Each part will be covering different, important, aspects of my prep. It'll be kinda lengthy but if I want to win this, I'll have to cover my bases. So let's get started

Intelligent Design

First things first, Manchester will give the Darkness Reed's intelligence. He can do this in two ways

The first way is much more simple but less concrete, he can simply transfer all of Reed's knowledge and blueprints into Jackie's head.Something he may not have directly done but should have no problem doing as lesser telepaths have been able to extract information from well protected minds before

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And it isn't as if Black has no experience with messing with memory either, he has been shown to erase memories in the past.

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So I don't think it would be a stretch to say that Black would be able to transfer information from one mind to another.

But if you want a more concrete alternative, Manchester Black can simply swap Jackie and Reed's minds, which he has done before.

No Caption Provided

And yes, that was Black he was given credit at the end. Also, he was only strained since MMH tried to undo the damage.

And then Black could make Darkness Reed hate your team so he would have Jackie's morals. Black has also done this before.

No Caption Provided

But whichever method my team may take, the end result will be that the Darkness will have Reed's intelligence. Which means that he will be able to create anything and everything Reed has ever made. Because remember, the Darkness only needs to know how something works to make it

No Caption Provided

It is a subconscious ability

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And it can create something as complex as a human

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The Power of Creation

Now, as you mentioned, I will be creating the Bridge. The Bridge being Reed's inter-dimensional window. Now, why does Jackie do this? Because the Bridge can see the future and past of any given dimension.

New Avengers
New Avengers

This includes the dimension my team is in

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New Avengers

So basically, we can set the Bridge to mine any dimension similar to the one we are in and see up to two hours ahead in the future AKA we can see all possible realities, we see what can be done and what has been done. All before your team even steps into the battlefield, which means that my team can prep specifically for your team (more on that later).

While this is happening, Darkling with create a n expanding darkness aura around the area that only high level magic can pierce.

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World's Finest #278

As you can see Darkling covers 100 square miles in darkness, and her darkness grows at an outstanding rate. In 3 hours, it should be able to cover the planet, as in minutes her sphere has grown 50x its original size.

Same issue
Same issue

We also get confirmation that the Darkling has that kind of range, though she doesn't say how long it would take, I think 3 hours is enough to cover at least half of the planet (which is all that would be needed since the other half would be facing away from the sun).

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Darling's statements should also be treated with an air of credibility since she seemingly has the ability to sense information (or something like it). Which is why she knows the exact area her darkness cover and the secret identities of the Marvel Family.

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This would give the Darkness a lot more range and legroom to work his magic, which he will definitely use.

He will then create the following items (in no particular order).

The Anti-Galactus armor

Fantastic 4 #557
Fantastic 4 #557

And yes, Jackie can create and turn into things of that scale (or at least close to it), so creating it wouldn't be a problem in terms of scale.

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Now many people like to say that the armor is featless, and in a way it is since it has never faced Galactus. But it has one shot a team buster in the issue it was introduced.

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The power of that hit shredded through the Cap bot and created a massive shockwave. And yes, that Cap bot is a legit team buster. It shredded through 40 of MArvel's heavy hitters, 40, in just 8 minutes.

Fantastic 4 #556
Fantastic 4 #556

That 40 included Iron Fist, Spider-Man, Giant Man, the Sentry, Hercules, Wolverine Storm, Ms. Marvel, the Vison, Iron Man etc. all wasted in just 8 minutes.

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And it even tanked being dog piled by all of them later on. Most impressively being able to no sell Logan's claws, as well as a hits from Marvel's top tiers (except Thor and Hulk since this is during Civil War where both were absent).

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The bot then beats the team for a second time.

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So basically the Anti-Galactus armor one shot a bot that tanked hits from 40 of Marvel's heaviest hitters and beat them all twice.

Power Ray

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The Power Ray amplifies a meta's power using an unknown source of universal energy. That ray is quite handy, it was able to amp a weakened FF who could barely use their powers

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Into their fully powered selves again

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Same issue

We will use this ray to amp Manchester Black and the Darkness.

Anti-Matter Weaponry

He has two notable weaponry, the one I used last round, the planet busting bombs.

No Caption Provided

Which again, Reed already reversed engineered with BP.

New Avengers Vol. 3 #3
New Avengers Vol. 3 #3

But this time Reed will also create anti-matter guns. This gun was so powerful that it shut down Franklin's mind in one blast, at the moment Franklin's psychic energy would have overloaded to solar system levels.

Fanastic 4 #141 AKA the
Fanastic 4 #141 AKA the "Dad of the Year" issue

He also has the Entropy Gun, because of course I would use it. And while it isn't technically an anti-matter gun, it uses anti-matter shells.

Fantastic 4 #572
Fantastic 4 #572

As you can see, it takes down a Celestial (which is just below Galactus level).

Draining Tech

Like his arch nemesis, Doctor Doom, Reed also has various ways to drain opponents (usually made to drain Doom when he drains someone). I will show case some of his most potent ones, starting with the Sonic Shark Missiles, a missile that drained the Silver Surfer affecting him through the era.

Fantastic 4 #72
Fantastic 4 #72

It almost completely drained Surfer and killed him (but thanks to the FF it did not).

No Caption Provided

But that is just a taste. Reed also has a gun that drained Occulus, instantly making him drop to his knees.

Fantastic 4 #364
Fantastic 4 #364

He also has a similar gun which instantly weakens the rogue Watcher.

Fantastic 4 #397
Fantastic 4 #397

Now in both instances the guns work fast but also get blasted before it can finish the job. But in this case, it would be no problem since Jackie can always re-make it. Now you might say this won't be enough, but luckily, I have one more trick under my sleeve.

The Army

Jackie will create his own personal army

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Said army can come with their own personal weapons.

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Is pretty much endless as long as Jackie is alive.

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And can be powerful enough to overpower Supes.

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So let's add it all up. We have Darklings created out of darkness that only high level magic can pierce (meaning they are practically invulnerable to anything else).

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Each holding various OP weaponry. Including the ones listed and some wild cards like shrinking rays, vibra guns (which weakness you using vibrations) disorienting gas and atom igniters to name a few.

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The Plan

Basically, my plan would be to try to eliminate you as fast as possible, this will likely be through the use of internal attacks.

Inside Out

Both Jackie and Black can use these types of attacks to easily kill an opponent. Jackie can control darkness no matter where it is.

No Caption Provided

And Black can use TK on things he can't even see, including your insides.

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Both can pretty much ignore durability this way. Jackie can take down massive golems with ease meanwhile Black can take down Supes. Both can do it with ease.

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No Caption Provided

Jackie and the Army of Darkness

If that doesn't work, then Jackie, the Reed in the Anti-Galactus armor, and Jackie's army will go after you. I already went into detail on the armor and the army and what they are packing, so I will now go into what Jackie can do himself.

First of all, he can heal atom by atom.

No Caption Provided

He can manipulate the entire battlefield molecule by molecule thanks to Darkling. So he can make everything burn, drown or fry if he wants.

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Because remember, this is Jackie's domain now so he can basically he can do whatever he wants. Like create monsters as tall as buildings or "black holes"

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Even just being in his domain is a health hazard. Your very being will be turned into food for his soul just by being in close proximity to him.

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Jackie also posses the ability to cage you instantly (a taste of your own medicine if you will).

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What's so OP about this? Well, Jackie used a similar cage to trap Angelus, a planet busting light user.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

This feat is akin to Superman restraining a planet busting kryptonite bomb (though Jackie isn't weak to light, it just lessens his ammo).

This, combed with the massive army, with guns that can drain your power, disintegrate matter, take down Celestials and do all sorts of things, and an armor that one shot a team buster. Makes for a dangerous recipe.

Counters

Before I get into the"real" counters, I want to counter the Motherbox's technopathy.

Preemptive Counter:

Now you didn't really bring it up but I read the wiki on it and it states that the motherbox can

  • Machine Animation/Control: Take over and control non-sentient machines, including the ability to evolve non-sentient machines.

    DC Wikia

Which would be really troublesome if not for one clause "non-sentient machines". Now what does that mean? Well, it means that my team ha a simple counter to it. Just make my tech sentient. Jackie has done this before by infecting a car and turning it into a darkling.

No Caption Provided

So there is no reason he can't do that to my weapons, especially when he would be the one creating the weapons and he can do whatever he wants with them.

Anyway, moving on to your post.

Freedom:

Namely, when the Lantern tribes combined their powers and decided to attack New Genesis Highfather just booted them into his prison cells.

Did he turn the entire planet into a prison are did he teleport the Lanterns into a prison? Because if it is the latter then it isn't allowed as BFR is banned.

But, right now, of course, it seems like there is nothing stopping them from getting out. Well, of course that is not true. These prison cells are as advanced as anything in comics can be. Allow me to demonstrate:

Looks like it was specifically created to counter Lanterns (with the pushing back light thing). It should be no problem for Jackie to escape, he can simply create a portal and escape

No Caption Provided

And if that isn't enough, he can create Star Warpers which allow for intangability and teleportation

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Reed duplicated that, because of course he did, it's Reed.

Fantastic 4 #67
Fantastic 4 #67

Or he can use his anti matter bombs to delete everything on the surface as a last ditch effort.

No Caption Provided

As you can see, there is no easy way to escape this prison. However, if your team has a chance to do it, Yhwach will be able to see it. If that happens, my team would have to react. So, remember those Energy Attacks Highfather has, that destroyed six robots, when the Astro force couldn't even dent one? Well, they would be coming for you.

That doesn't look like it atomizes people to Jackie would be able to heal just fine, and I believe the Anti-Galactus Armor should do well in protecting Reed. In terms of Black, he can simply stop the blast in its tracks

No Caption Provided

And he should have the speed to do that, thanks to the Spidey sense which allows Spidey to react to light/electric based attacks.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

And no, I am not saying Spidey is LS or anything dumb like that. Spidey can dodge attacks faster than him due to his Spider Sense as it warns him ahead of time (you don't have to be faster than a bullet if you aren't where it hits, something like that).

No Caption Provided

However, that is the worst case scenario. Another nifty ability Highfather has are his alpha bullets. In the scan i have linked there, Izaya is using his Alpha bullets to gather the Forever people that Darkseid banished across space and time. Needless to say, it worked.

So those bullets would port Jackie back to the prison? Because if so, then what stops him from just escaping again?

Initial Thoughts

I believe that using my prep, my team can take out Yhwatch quite easily by either using internal attacks to take him out right away or one shotting him using the Entropy Gun or something similar. Highfather in the other hand would be a bigger problem, since he can likely disperse Darkling's sphere. That and his prison nonsense, but my team can escape from his prison and I believe that my team can overwhelm him by rushing him with an army of darklings, each of them draining his power, blasting him with anti-matter, hitting him with the entropy gun or just distracting him with disorienting gas, with Reed in his armor leading the charge while Jackie works as support, constantly making more weapons, healing his darklings, healing his allies, controlling the battle field, firing missiles (especially the Sonic Shark, which he would fire constantly to help drain HF) and perhaps even sealing Highfather once he is weakened enough.

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#22 Posted by Revan- (7959 posts) - - Show Bio

Here lies one Hellstorm.

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#23 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@revan-: Win for me Revan. For the draining strat.

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#24 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

@revan- said:

Here lies one Hellstorm.

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#25 Posted by Revan- (7959 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9887 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#28 Posted by Chimeroid (9270 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: It's fine, it's fine. You can take as long as you want, 3 days, 5 days.......a month....a year. The longer it takes the longer I live. :P

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#30 Posted by Chimeroid (9270 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: I have to say, when i found a flaw in your Bridge strategy i almost fell out of my chair from the surprise, it was funny as hell :)

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#31 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by Chimeroid (9270 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom:

Time for

Round 1:

So, the basis of our strats and abilities are set. It is now time to delve into the debate a bit deeper and see who actually comes out on top. I will open up with a couple of counters. But first, i want to point out a small, but relevant thing - adaptability.

Adaptability

Thanks to Yhwach's ability to see into all the possible futures and reassess his situation as the fight goes on, my team has all that it takes to work up the most ideal plan to fight yours. And a lot of my counters come from the fact that my team will know what your team is doing.

Counters:

Now, as far as counters will go this time around, i will address the point in the order you set them. So, let's get it on:

Prep Issues:

The Mind Transfer:

First of all, i want to get one thing straight. The fact that your character can do something, doesn't mean they will. Transferring bodies is a very outlandish strategy. You could get the same effect by simply having Manchester create a mind link between Reed and Jackie. Not saying that Black can't do it, but it bugs me how you got to incredibly complicated stuff instead of just having your teammates work together as relatively normal people would.

The In-Character Issue Of The Transfer:

While i generally like what you are doing, one thing that simply has to be mentioned about your prep is the standard behavior of your characters. I mean with all the knowledge, Jackie still tends to just create a knife. All that you are listing right there is just a bit of reaching too much. So, let's counter your two main options:

  1. Transferring knowledge - Now, Jackie has Reed's knowledge, but maintains his character. Is it in character for him to create a bunch of different plans that include various different technology? Or, is he more likely to come up with a single, ingenious plan and go with it instead?
  2. Transferring Minds - Now you have Reed's knowledge and his penchant for overly prepping, but you lack Jackie's skill with the manipulation of Darkness. And, with every step you add to your prep (e.g. Reed learning how to manipulate Darkness) you open up a small chance to fail.

The Bridge:

I dig it. But, i will need you to show me the best prep feats Reed has with the use of the Bridge for me to give it any value. The bridge works via a single monitor. Which means that it visually shows one of the possible futures. Show me why i should find myself impressed by it.

And then, i will show you why your strategy doesn't work well with itself. You see, failing to coordinate your efforts will end up causing more trouble than it is worth and mainly just wasting your time. Let's go step by step.

  1. You use the bridge to get a visual representation of the future 3 hours ahead
  2. You use the Darkling to cover everything in complete and utter darkness.

Do you not see the big flaw here? The monitor on the bridge will just be black when you try to see the future as the future you are in is completely black.

The Darkling's Darkness - Arithmetic vs Geometric Growth

Here is the issue with your approach. You look at 100sqm starting surface and at the 5,000sqm follow-up and you say she can make it 50 times bigger in a couple of hours. Assuming that the growth is Geometric. Meaning that you multiply it by fifty every "-insert random, unquantified time period Mary took to go the to rock of eternity, talk to Shazam, talk to Tjalf, and go get the cup, and then return-". However, i see it as arithmetic growth. She grew it for 4,900square miles in that time period. (and, btw, it could be more than a couple of minutes). The earth is 40,183 times bigger than that area. 3 hours wouldn't be enough to cover a state. Hell, at her rate, if we imagine it took her a single minute to cover 4,900 square miles, she would barely cover the area of Texas.

If you want to see my math, just ask, it's all there.

Assuming Geometric growth is a "dangerous" thing. Let me just end this part of the discussion with a Real-Life example as to why.

Imagine having a dollar in your pocket. After working for 1 hour at minimum wage, you now have 800% of your starting capital. Using geometric growth to estimate your end-of-day worth would lead to you having $2,097,152 . That is two million. However, that is not how it works. The growth is arithmetic, and, in the end of the day you will have 59 dollars instead.

The Anti-Galactus Armor:

Oh, come on, we both know that feat is very rich in context. C.A.P. was not allowed to harm Reed. They all knew C.A.P. would tear through that Armor like it was tissue paper if it was allowed to.

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So, your only feat for that armor is a punch that created a shockwave the size of Central Park. Didn't destroy anything apart for the deactivated head of a robot. No durability feats. No Speed feats, no ranged attacks. The only feat is a super punch that didn't do much. Compare it to this strike of Supermanfor a quick comparison.

Draining tech

The draining strategy is interesting. However, Reed doesn't really make general-use appliances. Pretty much every "draining device" he has made was specifically targeted against the enemy he used it on and wouldn't affect others.

  • Sonic Shark:The Sonic Shark is a cool weapon. However, it is not a draining weapon actually. It collects cosmic energy and uses it as a charge for its own explosion. Surfer was weak against it due to the nature of his powers. And, lastly, the Shark was not created or used by Reed. It was used by the U.S. Army , now, an argument can be made that it was based on Reed's tech, however, it is not Reed's creation.
  • The Gemenervator: Oculus uses the power of the Gems of the Inniverse. Reed made a device to specifically target the Gems. he even named it by them. And, more importantly, it clearly took its sweet ass time to drain Oculus as Oculus simply destroyed it. Highfather has a LOT more energy than that.
  • The Dekion Draining: This is the one i have no issues against. However, it clearly failed in its goal. The blast bothered the rogue, featless, Watcher, but did little more than that before being destroyed.

Overall, i don't think there is too much to worry about when it comes to your draining tech.

The Rest of Your Tech:

Let's just rush through the rest of these:

  • Power Ray-This is not an amp machine, it simply moves energy around. It is due to the nature of their powers that they were able to power up. The Fantastic Four absorbs cosmic energy and that gives them their powers. There is no indication it would amp Black or Darkness. Instead, just use it as an energy source for the robot suit.
  • Anti - Matter Bombs- Cool weapon. However, Reed did not make it alone. Do you have proof he can do it solo? Not trying to say he can't, i will just require some scans to go off of. As of right now, T'Challa might hold a bit of knowledge Reed doesn't
  • Anti - Matter Guns - Your scan shows it is a defective, experimental model. I highly doubt he will be making that one.
  • Entropy Gun - This i am cool with. This gun essentially shoots "grenades" that have outer shells made out of antimatter, and the inside messes up energy. However, it is less than ideal. Anti-Matter will react to any sort of matter it hits. So, basically, my team would just need anything between the entropy gun and themselves and the issue is solved.

And, to counter both of your "guns" i can simply utilize the motherbox once again to reverse the polarity of the weapons and have your troops commit mass suicide.

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And lastly, counters for The Army:

Wow, that prep part was long, took me a while to address everything, however, we are finally here. And i have one very simple counter for your summons - tourney limits both for number of the summons and their power.

This is what you propose (i am quoting you):

"Is pretty much endless as long as Jackie is alive."

- Not endless, you got 200 of them

"And can be powerful enough to overpower Supes."

- Nope, can be powerful enough to lose to Spiderman

We have Darklings created out of darkness that only high level magic can pierce (meaning they are practically invulnerable to anything else). Each holding various OP weaponry. Including the ones listed and some wild cards like shrinking rays, vibra guns (which weakness you using vibrations) disorienting gas and atom igniters to name a few.

Pretty sure that being indestructible to anything but magic and having all of those weapons would count as being above Spidey in level, tone it down a smidgen.

The Battle Plan Counter:

Thankfully, the basic setup of your plan, once the battle starts is super simple. Which will help us make this debate a bit shorter. So, let's see:

Basically, my plan would be to try to eliminate you as fast as possible, this will likely be through the use of internal attacks.

A nice, straightforward plan. However, there are two massive issues with it.

1. Your team is not as fast as mine

2. Your team is not as good at predicting the future as mine.

Realistically speaking, my team will be the first one to land some serious attacks. Whether it is through the use of the prison, energy manipulation or straight up Reiatsu traps.

The Prison Misconceptions:

From your post, i got that you thought this prison was something it is not, so, the two main issues i notice, are related to the size of the prison and the nature of the cells.

Did he turn the entire planet into a prison are did he teleport the Lanterns into a prison? Because if it is the latter then it isn't allowed as BFR is banned.

It's not BFR if he teleports you on the cell that is still on the battlefield. And this is. It is not a planet. It is just a spherical jail that can travel through space. It is the size of a large building.

Looks like it was specifically created to counter Lanterns (with the pushing back light thing). It should be no problem for Jackie to escape, he can simply create a portal and escape

I don't see what made you say that. There are no indications it was created for Lanterns at all. The scan reads, quite clearly "Energy signature detected; Engage singularity measures". "Energy counteracted". So, it didn't just counter the light. It outright counteracted any energy signatures. That would, unfortunately for you, go for most of what your team does as well.

It even countered Parallax. He is not just hardened light, he is an actual entity with incredible power. So, it is safe to say that these cells can hold back a lot more than just ring slingers.

The Internal Attack

Believe it or not, my team has multiple counters to that strategy rearing and ready to go. The first one is durability. Neither Black, nor Darkness have ever done this to someone as durable as Highfather. The second one is active countering - Highfather can manipulate energy and dispel Energy-based attacks.

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Dispersing the power of the White Lantern

Furthermore Yhwach's Almighty gives another nifty ability:

He can become immune to abilities he learns of by looking into the future.
He can become immune to abilities he learns of by looking into the future.

Now, i know, this is an NLF, and, without feats, it is of no use. However, did you know Yhwach has already faced a Darkness manipulator and has proven that he can be immune to his abilities? He did. Wanna see?

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And, lastly for now - The Motherboxes:

Having a motherbox is an incredibly useful thing. There is a reason it costs 10 perk points to get it. Two of the important functions for this fight are the healing ability, and the matter manipulation protection.Namely, the Motherbox can instantly fix the molecules of my team thus protecting them from most attacks, including the internal ones.

My Turn

The Superior Prep

I took my time with the opener waiting to see what your team can do. However, it is time for me to go on the offensive.

Believe it or not, there are more non-lethal methods i can use against your team before you manage to force us to start physically fighting. Thanks to Yhwach's superior future sight, my team will know exactly where your team will be in which second and what to do to beat them.

Traps

One of the simplest ways Yhwach uses this ability during combat (bear in mind he had no prep during that fight) is to lay out reiatsu traps capable of piercing through Ichigo. And he was holding back against Ichigo for the most part. Avoiding lethal attacks. He could, of course, use these as lethal moves. However, let's just start it out nice and easy and use them in the exact same way. Now, not only does your team start in a prison cell. They have holes in their feet as well. Making it more difficult for them to move (barring those with healing factors) or focus to use their abilities.

Highfather can, if the need arises, also employ other types of New God tech. For an example a de-energizing bomb:

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A bomb like this will not only mess your team up quite a bit as they are lacking in durability, but will also de-energize anything you have set up in advance.

Amping:

I almost forgot. Izaya also loves amping his allies, and he is really good at that. For an example, during the Great Darkness Saga, he gave a lot of powers to Superboy and Supergirl, enough, in fact, to beat GDS Darkseid.

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However, that doesn't even compare to his best empowering feat. Namely, he is the one who created Takion.

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And that is no small feat. Apart for being a teambuster level character overall, Takion has some feats that are pushing skyfather levels. Even before being capable to control his powers in the slightest, Takion was incredibly powerful. Now, i am not saying Izaya would amp Yhwach to Takion's level. However, he could amp him to the level of Superman+ given how he has amped Superboy and Supergirl to GDS Darkseid levels.

This means that Yhwach will be able to tank a lot more than usually.

Countering your "initial thoughts"

I believe that using my prep, my team can take out Yhwatch quite easily by either using internal attacks to take him out right away

So, to put it shortly, the first issue for your team is that my team will, without a doubt, be the first to land their shots. Not only do i have the superior future sight, but i have faster characters.

On the other hand, if they do manage to use these attacks, i have more counters. Namely, as mentioned Yhwach can become immune to their abilities. And, if any damage occurs, the Motherbox will fix it.

That and his prison nonsense, but my team can escape from his prison

Yet to see that. The prison outright negates any energy manipulation attempts. It is definitely going to be more than just difficult to get out when your tech doesn't work (remember, it negates energy signatures). And i see no reason to believe Jackie's powers are harder to contain than Parallax.

and I believe that my team can overwhelm him by rushing him with an army of darklings, each of them draining his power, blasting him with anti-matter, hitting him with the entropy gun or just distracting him with disorienting gas,

And this is the big reason why having proper future sight is so dandy. For an example, my team could be on the opposite side of the planet and orchestrate all of these feats. Ofc, that is not what i plan to do. You have a bunch of decent fodder there. The motherboxes in my team can redirect most of the general attacks and my fodder can more than match your own. For an example, i am pretty sure Cyclops would destroy the whole lot of 200 darklings

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Let's go through some of his feats.

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1. His blasts are powerful enough to slow down WWH and force him raise his arms to protect himself. 2. Destroys a mountain top 3. A huge AOE blast

Why is this important? Well, not only do his blasts contain enough juice to rip apart the darklings (remember, nothing stronger than Spiderman), they are also emitting pure light. Meaning that they wil harm the Darklings even more.

So, How Would This Fight Go? (Read Through For Another Izaya Feat)

As soon as the fight starts, your team is in big issues. First they are put in a cell that negates energy signatures. Then, they find out it has been peppered with Yhwach's traps. The de-energizing bomb also causes a lot of issues. And, your team does lack durability barring the Darkness. As you, yourself already noticed, he is really tough. Unfortunately for him, Highfather has just the move to take him out.

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Yep, he can transmute his enemies as well.

The Conclusion

While your team is definitely well-made and interesting, it will have to spend a lot of resources to simply cover the sheer power gap between your members and Izaya. And it is a gap that Yhwach just makes bigger and bigger. My team will know everything you plan on doing and react accordingly. And they do have counteres for everything you throw out. It almost feels as if they are the perfect enemies to match, and overcome, what your team can do.

TL;DR

I know how tedious reading a long post can be, so i have a short summary right here. I will explain what every header covers. And, i will throw in a couple of bonus counters here, for good measure.

Mind Transfer -Not only is it overly complicated, but it has certain drawbacks, like Reed not knowing how to use Jackie's powers.

The Bridge -He wants to cover the entire area in darkness. That means that, looking at the future through the bridge will only give him visions of that darkness.

Darkling's darkness - At best, she could cover a decently sized state. Not anywhere near the entire planet.

Anti-Galactus Armor - A featless piece of tech that lacks durability showings to lead me to believe Izaya doesn't oneshot it.

Draining Tech -Is either very situational, not made by Reed, or simply a failure.

Entropy and Antimatter guns - Countered by Motherboxes

The Prison - It's not BFR. it is just a building that can keep the entire GL corp in it. Basically, a win through incapacitation.

Escaping the prison -Good luck doing it without energy manipulation.

Internal Attacks -Yhwach becomes invulnerable, Izaya is too durable, and Motherboxes heal any damage that does go through.

Army - Breaking the limits the way you propose it to work. Gets countered by Cyclops if it remains within limits.

Bonus - Spidey sense:Again, very limited precog against a perfect one. Not to mention that the attack Izaya used to save Orion was MFTL as it travelled across the universe to reach the Bedlam-bots

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#33 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio
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#34 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: My post will be up by tomorrow if all goes well.

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#35 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio
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#37 Posted by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

Is this open?

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#39 Edited by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: I've been told to try to be more assertive while not being salty, I'm going to try to find that balance in this post so bear with me. Also this post is a bit messy, at first I tried to follow your format for uniformity but I decided that I didn't like the one spoiler block opening all the scans thing, so I reverted back to my style mid way.

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Theme Song

With the talk of prisons and escapes, I thought this would be a fitting song.

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Counters to Counters

Thanks to Yhwach's ability to see into all the possible futures and reassess his situation as the fight goes on, my team has all that it takes to work up the most ideal plan to fight yours. And a lot of my counters come from the fact that my team will know what your team is doing.

Well, my team can see the future as well, so while you can argue you can see the "true" future giving you the advantage (which is I doubt will give you any advantage since Reed can download data from 1 billion Earths at a time) I would say that my team is more versatile than yours (Reed's genius, the Darkness' creation, Black's TP/TK and cunning) so we would have as much if not more adaptability than you guys do.

My Perfect Prep:

The Mind Transfer:

First of all, i want to get one thing straight. The fact that your character can do something, doesn't mean they will. Transferring bodies is a very outlandish strategy.

That's true. Luckily Black is an outlandish guy, in the Pre-52 continuity he only had 24 comic book appearances, and yet, he mind transfers not just once, but twice. I already showed him switching Bizzaro and Supes' minds but he also takes over Vera's mind

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So for a guy with that few appearances, I would say it's pretty consistent for him to do especially when he is one of the most cunning villains in Superman's gallery, so him figuring out he should put the blueprints of the world's greatest builder into the body of a man who can build anything would not just be simple, but entirely in character.

You could get the same effect by simply having Manchester create a mind link between Reed and Jackie. Not saying that Black can't do it, but it bugs me how you got to incredibly complicated stuff instead of just having your teammates work together as relatively normal people would.

No, that would create a couple problems. 1. I would need perfect team work. 2. It would create lag (instead of Jackie creating things he would have to wait for instructions then build).

Transferring knowledge - Now, Jackie has Reed's knowledge, but maintains his character. Is it in character for him to create a bunch of different plans that include various different technology? Or, is he more likely to come up with a single, ingenious plan and go with it instead?

I disagree with the very notion of your question. You see my entire strategy is just one ingenious plan, in 3 words it is simply to arm the Darklings. That's it, now naturally, Jackie likes to go big so he would use Reed's most powerful weaponry. Also, it is entirely in character for Jackie to use everything he learns, once he learned how to manipulate chemicals with the darkness he started using it in combat when he could

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Transferring Minds - Now you have Reed's knowledge and his penchant for overly prepping, but you lack Jackie's skill with the manipulation of Darkness. And, with every step you add to your prep (e.g. Reed learning how to manipulate Darkness) you open up a small chance to fail.

Are you forgetting the fact that the Darkness is a subconscious ability?

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Jackie even creates a city wide maze in the underground of a city and he doesn't even know the layout of it, he simply gets to where he wants to go because he doesn't need to consciously control them.

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Though I will admit that Jackie gets "stronger" with the Darknesss the more he trains, but really it's cause he was working with a chemical engineer who taught him how to make things more complex than guns, but that is less than child's play to Reed. So basically, I could actually argue Reed being 10x more skilled than Jackie but I won't.

The Bridge:

I dig it. But, i will need you to show me the best prep feats Reed has with the use of the Bridge for me to give it any value. The bridge works via a single monitor. Which means that it visually shows one of the possible futures.

If by one you mean one billion at a time.

Dark Reign: Fantastic Four #4
Dark Reign: Fantastic Four #4

Show me why i should find myself impressed by it.

Well there isn't much to show. The future predicting ability was discovered in New Avengers, which lead up to the whole Battleworld thing (where the whole multiverse was altered) which then lead to Reed disappearing at the end. So Reed was busy dealing with event after event. However, he did create an entire aresenal of anti-matter nukes with T'Challa

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And then, i will show you why your strategy doesn't work well with itself. You see, failing to coordinate your efforts will end up causing more trouble than it is worth and mainly just wasting your time. Let's go step by step.

  1. You use the bridge to get a visual representation of the future 3 hours ahead
  2. You use the Darkling to cover everything in complete and utter darkness.

Do you not see the big flaw here? The monitor on the bridge will just be black when you try to see the future as the future you are in is completely black.

Black to you, perhaps. but it would be dumb if Jackie or the Darkness couldn't see in the dark cause that would make them bumbling idiots. Which is why they both can.

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In the first scan Darkling directly says that she can see in darkness, and in the second Jackie explains how he is basically omnipresent in the darkness. Also thanks to mind link, my entire team could see what they see. So yeah, the screen my my blank but my team should be able to easily see what is going on.

The Darkling's Darkness - Arithmetic vs Geometric Growth

Here is the issue with your approach. You look at 100sqm starting surface and at the 5,000sqm follow-up and you say she can make it 50 times bigger in a couple of hours. Assuming that the growth is Geometric. Meaning that you multiply it by fifty every "-insert random, unquantified time period Mary took to go the to rock of eternity, talk to Shazam, talk to Tjalf, and go get the cup, and then return-".

First thing's first, once Mary leaves for the Rock of Eternity, she leaves the universe and time so that isn't counted as part of the timer.

However, i see it as arithmetic growth. She grew it for 4,900square miles in that time period. (and, btw, it could be more than a couple of minutes). The earth is 40,183 times bigger than that area. 3 hours wouldn't be enough to cover a state. Hell, at her rate, if we imagine it took her a single minute to cover 4,900 square miles, she would barely cover the area of Texas.

Second of all this would make no sense and there is no evidence to back up your claim. And while you can say the same to me, I have 3 in comic evidences. Which may not be amazing but they are certainly better than nothing.

1. She says "I have extended the darkness over an area 5,000 square miles" keep in mind the word extended which means that if this were arithmetic, she would have covered an area total of 5,100 square miles as she started with a base of 100. But that is clearly not what she meant.

2. She tells Billy and Freddy that "Soon the world will be mine" and "Soon, I shall spread my darkness through the entire world" and I don't know about you, but I don't consider weeks later as soon, she clearly meant that soon would mean within that day, which is why she stayed in that area (it would make no sense other wise, what would she be planning to do, just stand there for weeks?)

3. The devil tells Darkling that her cloak is his greatest gift, better than the power of 6 hell lords (Sabbac) or the power to summon any villain throughout history (Master Man) so you would expect the cloak to be more useful than that since it is her only power besides the flight.

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If you want to see my math, just ask, it's all there.

Assuming Geometric growth is a "dangerous" thing. Let me just end this part of the discussion with a Real-Life example as to why.

Imagine having a dollar in your pocket. After working for 1 hour at minimum wage, you now have 800% of your starting capital. Using geometric growth to estimate your end-of-day worth would lead to you having $2,097,152 . That is two million. However, that is not how it works. The growth is arithmetic, and, in the end of the day you will have 59 dollars instead.

I don't get how that proves anything. I can pull a real life example of exponential growth as well but it would prove nothing. In the end, your counter is just your opinion and speculations with no comic basis.

The Anti-Galactus Armor:

Oh, come on, we both know that feat is very rich in context. C.A.P. was not allowed to harm Reed.

Yeah, context that does not matter in the slightest. It not being able to harm Reed doesn't lower it's durability.

They all knew C.A.P. would tear through that Armor like it was tissue paper if it was allowed to.

Alright, so where is that stated? Because in your very own scan Reed says "The deadliest weapon on planet Earth and you're not allowed to touch it." clearly saying that his armor is more deadly than the Cap bot.

So, your only feat for that armor is a punch that created a shockwave the size of Central Park. Didn't destroy anything apart for the deactivated head of a robot.

Another claim with no evidence. These are the scans in order (I sourced my scans early so you can double check if you want).

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As you can see right before Reed beaks the bot it says "Command: Do not hurt" it does not say deactivated.

No durability feats. No Speed feats, no ranged attacks. The only feat is a super punch that didn't do much. Compare it to this strike of Supermanfor a quick comparison.

Are you comparing a bot that one shot a teambusting bot that no sold attacks from 40 of Earth's best heroes to Superman? Because that sounds like down playing.

Draining tech:

Sonic Shark:The Sonic Shark is a cool weapon. However, it is not a draining weapon actually. It collects cosmic energy and uses it as a charge for its own explosion. Surfer was weak against it due to the nature of his powers.

Yeah, the nature of basically all energy manipulator's powers.

And, lastly, the Shark was not created or used by Reed. It was used by the U.S. Army , now, an argument can be made that it was based on Reed's tech, however, it is not Reed's creation.

The military doesn't access to that kind of gearn and the Human Torch clearly calls the SSM the Fantastic Four's missile. "Our Sonic Shark Missile is based in the area"

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The Gemenervator: Oculus uses the power of the Gems of the Inniverse. Reed made a device to specifically target the Gems. he even named it by them.

That's what the 3 hours of prep and future sight are for.

And, more importantly, it clearly took its sweet ass time to drain Oculus as Oculus simply destroyed it. Highfather has a LOT more energy than that.

Not sure if we are looking at the same panel. Occulus feel to his knees instantly he had to break the device straight away before he was drained completely.

The Dekion Draining: This is the one i have no issues against. However, it clearly failed in its goal. The blast bothered the rogue, featless, Watcher, but did little more than that before being destroyed.

I feel this theme coming from your post,if you can't directly counter a point, you plant a word into the minds of the reader so they will doubt my arguments and not fully embrace the scope of the feat. It's quite an ingenious strategy, as with one adjective you are able to force me to go on the defensive.

But back on topic, the rogue Watcher is not featless, while he doesn't have an abidance of feats. he is still far from featless. For example here he is no selling Johnny's best attacks, the Thing's attacks and the exhaust of a space craft, he also claims that he can tank novas.

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Overall, i don't think there is too much to worry about when it comes to your draining tech.

I don't think you are getting the entire picture here, thanks to my army, you will be bombarded by energy draining attacks, you have much to fear if even one blast can drain a Watcher.

The Arsenal:

Let's just rush through the rest of these:

Power Ray-This is not an amp machine, it simply moves energy around. It is due to the nature of their powers that they were able to power up. The Fantastic Fourabsorbs cosmic energy and that gives them their powers. There is no indication it would amp Black or Darkness. Instead, just use it as an energy source for the robot suit.

But you see, the Darkness is a cosmic force in and of itself so it's similar to Galactus in a way (ish), meaning a cosmic amp should also amp Jackie.

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Anti - Matter Bombs- Cool weapon. However, Reed did not make it alone. Do you have proof he can do it solo? Not trying to say he can't, i will just require some scans to go off of. As of right now, T'Challa might hold a bit of knowledge Reed doesn't

They made in the same room at the same time. In order for T'Challa to know something Reed does not he has to either 1. Be smarter. or 2. Intentionally withhold information. But T'Challa is far from smarter and he had no reason to withhold information. Also why would Reed need to have feats of making these himself? The calculations are done, there is nothing to figure out as it has already been figured out, it's like iPhone manufacturers in China, once the engineers figure out how to make it, the manufactures can re-make it without being half as smart.

Anti - Matter Guns - Your scan shows it is a defective, experimental model. I highly doubt he will be making that one.

True. He would likely make a non-defective one that would do more than commotose targets.

Entropy Gun - This i am cool with. This gun essentially shoots "grenades" that have outer shells made out of antimatter, and the inside messes up energy. However, it is less than ideal. Anti-Matter will react to any sort of matter it hits. So, basically, my team would just need anything between the entropy gun and themselves and the issue is solved.

Too bad Jackie can control darkness anywhere which includes the ability to create darklings anywhere. So if you put a wall between us, you are confining yourself with the darklings.

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And, to counter both of your "guns" i can simply utilize the motherbox once again to reverse the polarity of the weapons and have your troops commit mass suicide.

You have to prove a bunch of things first. 1. Prove High Father could and would do this. 2. Prove it works on advanced anti-matter weaponry (anti-matter in of itself bends the rules of physics). 3. Prove you can do it on an army of darklings at the same time (at least 200 at once). 4. Prove it will work on the Entropy Gun which uses a shell instead of a beam.

And lastly, counters for The Army:

Wow, that prep part was long, took me a while to address everything, however, we are finally here. And i have one very simple counter for your summons - tourney limits both for number of the summons and their power.

No, the tourney limits summonsJackie uses constructs. It is said repeatedly that darklings are made. Here an advanced darkling construct stays they are constructed.

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And here a girl tells Jackie that there is a lot of dark stuff for him to make, he then proceeds to make darklings. HE also says that he can always make more darklings.

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He then makes a darkling human from scratches and says that he made her.

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Here an agent says that darklings are creatures Jackie Conjures up.

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Here he is shown creating a darkling from darkness.

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And a scan showing he can manipulate how a darkling looks

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Also before you use the consciousness argument, darklings aren't actually conscious beings. I know, it's crazy, you see them talking and having distinct attitudes, so of course they are conscious, right? Well not really, we have already established how the darkness is a subconscious ability, which means that the darkling's personalities are also a reflection of Jackie's current subconscious state of mind. Now this isn't said outright but there is a lot of evidence for it, mainly the fact that darklings almost always act the same way, immature and weird.

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Much like Jackie himself, who created a darkling smexy doll cause he couldn't keep it in his pants.

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But I know what you're thinking, "they are immature cause they aren't beings with high intelligence, they are like goblins" except no, they can be smart and act like professionals when Jackie subconsciously feels like it.

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Oh yeah, there is also the fact that Jackie outright says he controls them subconsciously by commanding them via "feelings"

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And you know what? I can go on, but you provided zero evidence for your claim that they are summons, it's no fair that I have to go one and spend a load of time proving that they aren't when the BoP (burden of proof) should be shared.

The Battle Plan Counter:

The Prison Misconceptions:

From your post, i got that you thought this prison was something it is not, so, the two main issues i notice, are related to the size of the prison and the nature of the cells.

Well you didn't go in-depth or provide sources, so I had to guess.

It's not BFR if he teleports you on the cell that is still on the battlefield. And this is. It is not a planet. It is just a spherical jail that can travel through space. It is the size of a large building.

Oh well then it is much less threatening than I thought.

I don't see what made you say that. There are no indications it was created for Lanterns at all. The scan reads, quite clearly "Energy signature detected; Engage singularity measures". "Energy counteracted". So, it didn't just counter the light.

Because Lanterns manipulate energy.

It outright counteracted any energy signatures. That would, unfortunately for you, go for most of what your team does as well.

My team doesn't manipulate energy, we manipulate darkness.

It even countered Parallax. He is not just hardened light, he is an actual entity with incredible power. So, it is safe to say that these cells can hold back a lot more than just ring slingers.

Parallax is weak AF these days. Supes hurts him with his heat vision

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And the weaponers of Qward were able to take him out while he was in Superman.

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The Internal Attack:

Believe it or not, my team has multiple counters to that strategy rearing and ready to go. The first one is durability. Neither Black, nor Darkness have ever done this to someone as durable as Highfather.

Good thing this attack specifically disregards that.

The second one is active countering - Highfather can manipulate energy and dispel Energy-based attacks.

Not sure why you think darkness is energy manipulation, like with the prison you seem to think they are one in the same, but there is no reason to think that so High Father will dispel nothing.

Now, i know, this is an NLF, and, without feats, it is of no use. However, did you know Yhwach has already faced a Darkness manipulator and has proven that he can be immune to his abilities? He did. Wanna see?

Oh well, looks like Black will have to kill him then.

Having a motherbox is an incredibly useful thing. There is a reason it costs 10 perk points to get it. Two of the important functions for this fight are the healing ability, and the matter manipulation protection.Namely, the Motherbox can instantly fix the molecules of my team thus protecting them from most attacks, including the internal ones.

That is troublesome, but it prevented Orion from dying, it didn't revive him from the dead. So once your characters die, they are gone and all it would take is one swift attack.

More Weapons

Just because Reed has more than I showed. First of all Reed created a weapon that can disrupt the energies of 30 cosmic cubes at once

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He did this just be analyzing it's energy signature (this was during the Goddess ark). This is amazing, stop level stuff. Each cube is a reality warping cube capable of universal reality warping and Reed, with little information, just decided to create a device that can deactivate 30 of them (since Goddess collected 30 into an egg the "group cosmic containment unit" they talked about in the scan). Now, sadly, Reed never got to use this as the Goddess found out about this plan, but as you can see in the last panel Doctor Strange and all the mind controlled villains agreed that the plan would have worked.

However, if you want more evidence that Reed can deactivate something as powerful as a cosmic cube, look no further than Sentry: Fantastic Four where he did exactly that (with Sentry's help).

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So yes, he can easily depower High Father. But just for fun, let's keep going, here he is, only using Quasar's energy manipulation and Johnny's cosmic power (which he had at the time cause he was a herald), instructing Quasar on how to make a weapon that would defeat Galactus.

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That did more that defeat Galactus, it robbed him of his true form, turning into a middle aged looking man.

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So.........there's that, but let's dial it back a bit shall we? Let's look at when Reed, as an old dying man, figured out how to reverse engineer skrull weaponry and reverse ageing.

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Fantatsic Four #214

I am not saying this gun will be used here like the others, since High Father is likely too old for de-ageing to do anything, however I am showing how quickly Reed can solve seemingly impossible problems even when hindered.

Now let's look at Reed's most famous discovery, unstable molecules, the stuff the FF's suits are made out of. Why? Because that stuff can be nasty, it can transmute other matter into itself if not handled properly.

When I saw that man die, my childhood died with him lol
When I saw that man die, my childhood died with him lol

That stuff kept expanding and was melting an entire building.

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That is dangerous, it's probably work wonders against that prison of yours. Reed can also program the stuff, because of course he can.

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That green stuff reminds me of something.........oh yeah that's right, Modulus. Modulus is a monster created by Franklin RIchards, it had the ability to add/subtract/multiply and divide.

Adding basically means it can absorb something then expel that thing

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Diving means it can delete things by the molecules just by touching you.

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He does this against Ben as well.

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Subtracting seems to be the same thing. Here he divides oxygen and subtracts affection

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He is near impossible to hurt, because he can divide anything he touches. But you are probably wondering why I even mention him, Franklin made Modulus. Well, while that is true, Reed made an exact replica, because again, he is Reed, he can do whatever he wants.

I know I've said Reed can do whatever he wants twice now, and I am sure you think I am just exaggerating like a Batman fanboy. But really, Reed has a temporary pocket universe generator, he can actually do whatever he wants provided the right tools and enough time.

Fantastic Four #57
Fantastic Four #57

TLDR If you notice, a lot of these stuff are not only crazy impressive, but also done when Reed was limited (Reed making the cosmic containment unit disrupter was based on little information, Reed depowering Galactus was done with no previous prep or any tools, Reed creating his own version of Modulus had to be done in less than an hour or his family would die and the de-aging gun had to be completed fast and Reed was old when he worked on it) . Now not all feats were Reed under pressure but the point still stands.

Your Offense

Traps

One of the simplest ways Yhwach uses this ability during combat (bear in mind he had no prep during that fight) is to lay out reiatsu traps capable of piercing through Ichigo. And he was holding back against Ichigo for the most part. Avoiding lethal attacks. He could, of course, use these as lethal moves. However, let's just start it out nice and easy and use them in the exact same way. Now, not only does your team start in a prison cell. They have holes in their feet as well.

You sure about that? Cause you would have to be better at piercing than Wolverine to do squat to Reed.

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Making it more difficult for them to move (barring those with healing factors) or focus to use their abilities.

Jackie can ignore getting shot in the heart so a cut in the foot is nothing.

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Also, there is no surprising someone with Spidey sense.

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Highfather can, if the need arises, also employ other types of New God tech. For an example a de-energizing bomb:

My team has 3 easy ways to BFR the bomb before it hits the ground

"Be gone bomb" Manchester says as he uses his TK to send to away

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"Be gone bomb" says Reed as he shrinks it down to the size of a rat

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Or he can use gas that will reduce the bomb's size a thousandfold

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"Be gone bomb" says Jackie as he engulfs the bomb in a living shadow like his weaker sister can and stores it for future use

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"....." Says darkling as she stares into her death.

However, that doesn't even compare to his best empowering feat. Namely, he is the one who created Takion.

And that is no small feat. Apart for being a teambuster level character overall, Takion has some feats that are pushing skyfather levels.Even before being capable to control his powers in the slightest, Takion was incredibly powerful. Now, i am not saying Izaya would amp Yhwach to Takion's level. However, he could amp him to the level of Superman+ given how he has amped Superboy and Supergirl to GDS Darkseid levels.

Superman+? You

And this is the big reason why having proper future sight is so dandy. For an example, my team could be on the opposite side of the planet and orchestrate all of these feats. Ofc, that is not what i plan to do. You have a bunch of decent fodder there. The motherboxes in my team can redirect most of the general attacks and my fodder can more than match your own. For an example, i am pretty sure Cyclops would destroy the whole lot of 200 darklings

mean herald level? AKA Silver Surfer level? AKA de-powered easily level?

My Initial Thoughts:

So, to put it shortly, the first issue for your team is that my team will, without a doubt, be the first to land their shots. Not only do i have the superior future sight, but i have faster characters.

And none of your attacks would one shot so it matters not.

On the other hand, if they do manage to use these attacks, i have more counters. Namely, as mentioned Yhwach can become immune to their abilities. And, if any damage occurs, the Motherbox will fix it.

Can the Motherbox revive a dead person? Because while Yhwach might be able to gain immunity over time, he will be killed by TK on the spot.

Yet to see that. The prison outright negates any energy manipulation attempts. It is definitely going to be more than just difficult to get out when your tech doesn't work (remember, it negates energy signatures).

Well it's a good thing we don't rely on energy weapons and the darkness isn't energy manipulation. We can just create a vial of unstable molecules, throw it on the ground and watch it work it's magic. Or we can just portal out of there cause your prison doesn't counter that.

And i see no reason to believe Jackie's powers are harder to contain than Parallax.

Not only is Parallax no longer as strong as he once was, but he is also made out of emotional energy which the prison counters. To say it somehow counters anyone weaker than Parallax is just NLF.

And this is the big reason why having proper future sight is so dandy. For an example, my team could be on the opposite side of the planet and orchestrate all of these feats. Ofc, that is not what i plan to do. You have a bunch of decent fodder there. The motherboxes in my team can redirect most of the general attacks and my fodder can more than match your own. For an example, i am pretty sure Cyclops would destroy the whole lot of 200 darklings

Except no. As far as I'm aware those attacks aren't magic

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Darkling's cloak will make the darklings be created out of stuff that Shazm's lightning can't pierce, Shazam's lighting being something with actual feats against darkness beings like Obsidian (a darkness manipulator on the level of Jackie himself or in mainstream terms, as good as the Silver Surfer).

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Why is this important? Well, not only do his blasts contain enough juice to rip apart the darklings (remember, nothing stronger than Spiderman), they are also emitting pure light. Meaning that they will harm the Darklings even more.

First, explain why you think darklings should follow summon rules despite being constructs, second prove that Scott emitts pure light.

Your Vision of the Fight:

As soon as the fight starts, your team is in big issues. First they are put in a cell that negates energy signatures. Then, they find out it has been peppered with Yhwach's traps

Which won't bother them, spikes are easy to heal from, tank and dodge.

The de-energizing bomb also causes a lot of issues. And, your team does lack durability barring the Darkness. As you, yourself already noticed, he is really tough

We have many ways to take out the bomb before it blows, remember Black reacted to heat vision, he can just BFR the bomb before it blows if Reed and Jackie aren't fast enough.

. Unfortunately for him, Highfather has just the move to take him out.

Transmutation? Think you can transmute a shadow? Scratch that, even if you could, as long as darkness exists, it will protect Jackie. You see these guys, the Four Horsemen of Apocalypse? Each of them can kill a man with just a touch even at their current forms (well War just makes people angry but the other can)

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Well, all four of them touched Jackie

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But did Jackie die? No, the darkness worked as an immunity system and rid him of the poison that is death.

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He then claims that the Hoursemen can't kill (and remember their powers are control of disease, famine, war and death itself).

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So as you can see, the Darkness will preserve Jackie any way it can, and it does have the ability seeing as how it also posses the ability to transmute darkness in the molecular level. Also High Father isn't getting that close to Jackie, Jackie will fight at a range, working as the operations commander, in order for High Father to get close he would have to plow through Jackie's army but he won't be able to.

Real Talk (Summary)

While your team is definitely well-made and interesting, it will have to spend a lot of resources to simply cover the sheer power gap between your members and Izaya. And it is a gap that Yhwach just makes bigger and bigger.

Yes, I agree. But you see here's the beauty of this, once my team prepares the resources to close the gap, the tables will shift and it will be you who is under powered. See, I don't know if you fully comprehend how impressive my tech is, but I'll give you the rundown of scans I have shown and why it is amazing.

1. Galactus

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Everyone knows who this guy is, but do you know how OP he is? Galactus would absolutely spit on your team like they were nothing. Galactus once took a full powered attack from Odin that was so powerful that it KO'd Odin himself

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It messed up Galactus' helmet pretty bad and knocked him down, but do you know what? He gets back up mere seconds later.

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Read through this CaV opener for more feats.

2. Celestials

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These are space gods, one shotting one Celestial is OMGWTF amazing level of power, that is why this scan is so widely used. There was one time Thor threw the Odin sword at a Celestial, who then proceeded to allow it to pierce him just so he can analyze the sword and pull it out as if nothing had happened.

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This is the Odinsword

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4. Depowering the Cosmic Cube

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A cosmic cube is a device that can warp reality, with it Thanos beats the most powerful beings in the universe

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Even a deformed cube can warp the entire planet

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5. Creating a Device that Can Depower the Cosmic Egg

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That's 30 cosmic cubes, 30! Do you know how insane that is? That is 30 devices that warp reality , as Mephisto explains here. He also claims that he only needs 1 to defeat Thanos (who IIRC has galaxy level durability). But of course Thanos gave him an ineffective cube.

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6. Taking Out Franklin Richards

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With a defective weapon he shuts down the mind of a being who will grow up to be the most powerful human in Marvel history. Reed says himself that Franklin is building up solar system level power but here is another scan.

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Galaxies and endless stars, merely toys to Franklin, and Reed shut him down.

Now do you understand? You do not hold the power advantage, you seem to think that my team is a bunch of weaker beings trying to stand up to the High Father, but High Father is nothing in comparison to the foes Reed has beaten.

You see every component of my build is only there for Reed (Darkling for materiel, Darkness for tools and Black to tie them all together) so I have essentially turned Reed into a 10 pointer, and he has the feats to back it up.

My team will know everything you plan on doing and react accordingly.

My team will know what you are doing as well and we have a prep god who can make use of that knowledge.

And they do have counteres for everything you throw out. It almost feels as if they are the perfect enemies to match, and overcome, what your team can do.

No, to be quite honest you haven't really countered the big stuff. like for my entire army you merely said they were summons (with no evidence to that claim), to my draining tech you merely tried to debunk my gear (which you didn't even do entirely as you gave the Watcher scan the thumbs up) and to the rest you offered a single scan which doesn't even work because in the fight sequence the scan takes place in, Orion gets hit with energy attacks, take a look

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New Gods #2 1989

If you didn't catch that, it was the 4th scan

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TL;DR

Mind Transfer -Not only is it overly complicated, but it has certain drawbacks, like Reed not knowing how to use Jackie's powers.

Just because something is complex, doesn't mean it doesn't work. I have also already shown and stated that Jackie's powers are subconscious.

The Bridge -He wants to cover the entire area in darkness. That means that, looking at the future through the bridge will only give him visions of that darkness.

Was honestly expecting a bigger counter here. But really, we can see in darkness so we can see the future. Not only that but 1. High Father's attacks will pierce the darkness. 2. Reed can download information directly into his brain.

Darkling's darkness - At best, she could cover a decently sized state. Not anywhere near the entire planet.

Your counter to this was merely your own opinion and not based on any comic book evidence.

Anti-Galactus Armor - A featless piece of tech that lacks durability showings to lead me to believe Izaya doesn't oneshot it.

It isn't featless, it OHKO a team buster. Also the fact that it was made to counter Galactus is enough evidence for me but if you chose to believe that it isn't, I won't blame you. Though in that case nothing is stopping Jackie from simply repairing the suit when needed.

Draining Tech -Is either very situational, not made by Reed, or simply a failure.

Which does't matter as Reed has future vision and prep here, he can make a gun exactly for this situation. He did make the SSM or at least the FF own that missile (and who else in the FF can make that kind of gear?). And none of his weapons failed, they were just disturbed while they did their thing.

Entropy and Antimatter guns - Countered by Motherboxes

Still needs to be proven that the motherbox can counter anti-matter and an entire army at once.

The Prison - It's not BFR. it is just a building that can keep the entire GL corp in it. Basically, a win through incapacitation.

Won't stop my team, not sure why you think darkness manipulation is energy manipulation, it may look like a Lantern's constructs but it isn't. It is like calling water manipulation energy manip.

Escaping the prison -Good luck doing it without energy manipulation.

No, it is you who needs the good luck. Cause once my team escapes, you're going to have hell to pay.

Internal Attacks -Yhwach becomes invulnerable, Izaya is too durable, and Motherboxes heal any damage that does go through.

Yhwach dies before it happens. Durability is exactly what it avoids. Can Motherboxes heal the dead?

Army - Breaking the limits the way you propose it to work. Gets countered by Cyclops if it remains within limits.

Nope. ET used an Iceman army on me last time, not sure why my army of darkness would be treated differently (unless you racist bro).

Bonus - Spidey sense:Again, very limited precog against a perfect one. Not to mention that the attack Izaya used to save Orion was MFTL as it travelled across the universe to reach the Bedlam-bots

Yeah, that's why I never compared it to the Almighty.

Basically

You cage us, we escape, we send an army after you, Yhwatch get one shot by Entropy gun or TK, X-Men get fodderized by various weaponry (turning them tiny or igniting their atoms) High Father is dog piled by an army with weapons built to stop mightier men, he gets overwhelmed and dies. GG no re.

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#40 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Sorry, had yo re-post cause the other one was missing pieces. I don't know if the above is perfect but I tried my best, CV kept glitching on me and was telling me that my original post was too big, no joke (https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111305978/6358694-img_0542.png) so I had to trim it down and edit but that was a glitchy process. But anyway, I think it is done now, I would appreciate it if you just did a small post countering the important stuff so I wouldn't have to jump through hoops again just to get my post up.

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#41 Posted by HigherPower (12407 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom: How'd you make that gif? Also what was one of the apps that you told Jlone can make scans easily?

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#42 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower: A GIF maker just Google one. Just search for "Scanner" in the app store, most of them work but some ask for subscription (mine is 100% free).

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#43 Posted by HigherPower (12407 posts) - - Show Bio
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#44 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@higherpower: The first result I got was "Scanner for me: Doccument scanner." Not sure if that works tho

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#45 Posted by Chimeroid (9270 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Sorry, had yo re-post cause the other one was missing pieces. I don't know if the above is perfect but I tried my best, CV kept glitching on me and was telling me that my original post was too big, no joke (https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11130/111305978/6358694-img_0542.png) so I had to trim it down and edit but that was a glitchy process. But anyway, I think it is done now, I would appreciate it if you just did a small post countering the important stuff so I wouldn't have to jump through hoops again just to get my post up.

Now this is a great post. I will definitely have to bring my A-game here. And, no problem. I will make it as short as i can :)

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#46 Posted by emperorthanos- (16787 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
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#48 Posted by Chimeroid (9270 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstrom

I really like how you open your posts, i also like how you make these little gifs that you use to open your posts. It is very original and it will help you stand out. I also want to praise the fact that you avoided following my formatting. That was rather smart. However, there are issues with the post itself i will be more than glad to point out. After all, i kinda wanna win this. So, let's talk about the actual points.

The Featless Bridge

Obviously, one of the biggest debating points in our debate is the bridge. And, honestly, you have come up short. For two, very simple reasons. The main one is that you lack good feats with it. And this is how battle debating works.

I admit i didn't know a lot about the bridge, which is why asked you to provide the feats for it. After all, looking into the future works the exact same way in debates as super strength. You have to provide feats to let us see EXACTLY what you can do with that ability. So, when i asked you what exactly Reed did with the bridge so far, this was your response:

Well there isn't much to show.

And, this is the exact same reason you shouldn't use featless things. Not only are you using a one-and-done piece of gear, but you also lack actual feats with it. Don't get me wrong, i am more than willing to accept the one-time tech. However, the lack of feats is really killing you. You show Reed scanning billions of worlds. That is great. However, how much info did he get on any of them? You claim you could get enough information to device a machine targeted against Highfather. So, i will give you one more chance to show that the Bridge can actually provide Reed with that type of information. So far, we have only seen The Bridge give Audio Visual Feedback. Which leads to the second issue.

The Darkness - You said this:

So yeah, the screen might be blank but my team should be able to easily see what is going on.

I don't think you understand how screens work. If the screen is not showing anything, their powers are useless. If all the pixels are black, they are simply black. Nothing more. Your team can't get the information they need. Not without opening an actual portal into the future. And that would be time manipulation.

The Darkling's Darkness - Arithmetic vs Geometric Growth

Ok, it seems like you didn't quite follow my point. So, let's just scale back down and do a feat breakdown again.

This is the feat you have - In a couple of minutes she covered 5000 square miles.

That is it.

Nothing more, nothing less. She covered 5000 square miles in a couple of minutes.

I highballed that feat by saying she covered it in a single minute. And then i did the math, and it would only cover Texas.

So, when someone asks what the feat is, the only REALISTIC and unbiased answer is "She covered 5000 sq miles with Darkness" Saying anything else is just trying to oversell the feat.

She tells Billy and Freddy that "Soon the world will be mine" and "Soon, I shall spread my darkness through the entire world" and I don't know about you, but I don't consider weeks later as soon, she clearly meant that soon would mean within that day,

Interesting. I never saw a scan of her at least stating "Today, i will rule the world". She just used an non-quantifiable term of "soon". And, yes, when it comes to ruling the world, a week, or a month, counts as soon.

The Devil's Quote - Ok, i have to take the page with the Devil's quote apart for this. First of all, saying "my greatest gift" is not a proof of a planetary power. Simple as that. Secondly, do you want to say that what the Devil says is an undeniable truth? In that case, your team can't see in the darkness either. To pull a direct quote from the Devil: "Impenetrable darkness in which none but you can see". There is no ambiguity in that statement, yet you claim that others with the dark vision can see in that darkness. So, you can either take the ENTIRETY of the quote as the gospel truth, or accept what we all already know. Boastful statements are not feats.

*Disclaimer - I agree that Jackie would see in her darkness. I was simply pointing out that the statement the devil made was "meh" at best.

I don't get how that proves anything. I can pull a real life example of exponential growth

Actually, literally nothing accelerates in movement through geometric growth. It is always arithmetic.

The Anti-Galactus Armor

There is no need to quote most of your claims from this. The only feat this armor has is highly unimpressive in the scope we are operating at right now. Not to mention that it lacks speed feats, durability feats, or any form of versatility. It literally only has the ability to throw a single, relatively powerful punch.

Are you comparing a bot that one shot a teambusting bot that no sold attacks from 40 of Earth's best heroes to Superman? Because that sounds like down playing.

There is no downplaying. The comparison is straightforward and what you brought up is not even an argument.

This is a direct comparison. They both threw a punch that made a shock wave. The armor you have made a shock wave that slightly bothered the audience and the wind moved trees around. Superman made a shock wave that almost destroyed the MOON. Superman's punch is AT LEAST a 1000 times more im

Don't get me wrong, the punch was clearly powerful. It created a shock wave in Central Park (i assume). But it just isn't all that.

However, let's give you the benefit of the doubt again and imagine you can provide feats for the suit. If you can, do your job now. Show me scans that quantify how fast it is, how durable it is, how versatile it is, and how protected the driver is. If you can't that means it is mostly featless. Apart for that one punch.

Draining Tech

Your proof that Reed created the Sonic Shark is that Johnny said "Our" at one point? Why was it then put to use by the Army? Especially if it was used "against" the FF in the story? I didn't see a single proof of the idea that Reed was the one to create it. Either way, even if he did, it is just a missile. I really doubt my team would even have difficulties stopping it. I will later post a scan of Highfater handling multiple battleships at the same time.

Occulus - You can spin it any way you want. The bottom line is that the device failed against an enemy who is vastly inferior in comparison to either of my characters.

The Watcher - Ughh... You are overselling again. Sure, he tanked the attack from two solid mid tiers, but the last bit annoyed me. I will quote it.

he also claims that he can tank novas.

No, he doesn't. He said he "witnessed" novas. Not that he tanked them.

you have much to fear if even one blast can drain a Watcher.

I would, if it did. It bothered the Watcher at best. It didn't really drain him. So, i just see another example of you overselling a feat here. The watcher was bothered, and he destroyed the machine. It failed. Plain and simple. And, before we go on. I want to say that i know that the Watchers are powerful. However, they are not all equally strong at all times. Galactus has defeated Uatu (who is in the upper levels among them) while he was "maddeningly hungry".

Thanks to my army, you will be bombarded by energy draining attacks, you have much to fear if even one blast can drain a Watcher.

Now you are just being disingenuous. We have seen that it didn't actually drain the watcher. It may have bothered him to a certain degree, but he was far from powerless.

Power Ray, Amps and How Your Claims Work Against You

In this same post, you make two conflicting claims. It does seem like you are tripping over your feet trying to pump out too many feats too quickly. So, let's see how you contradicted yourself in the prison bit, you said:

My team doesn't manipulate energy, we manipulate darkness.

Yet, in the Power Ray bit you said:

But you see, the Darkness is a cosmic force in and of itself so it's similar to Galactus in a way (ish), meaning a cosmic amp should also amp Jackie.

And, to be clear, we agreed that all this machine does is provide more energy to those who can manipulate it.

You can't have it both ways. Either you can amp him by adding energy for him to manipulate, or he doesn't manipulate energy at all, and thus doesn't get anything from that machine.

The next claim you made that goes against your strategy is using those attacks on Yhwach. You see, Yhwach can become immune to darkness manipulation give as there is direct proof of that. So, the weapons Jackie creates are either a.) Darkness, and thus ignorable by Yhwach or b.) energy, and thus counteracted by the Prison's "Singularity" protocol.

The Redirecting

I proposed using Highfather's powers and the Motherbox to turn your weapons against your darklings. to that, your reply was this:

You have to prove a bunch of things first. 1. Prove High Father could and would do this. 2. Prove it works on advanced anti-matter weaponry (anti-matter in of itself bends the rules of physics). 3. Prove you can do it on an army of darklings at the same time (at least 200 at once). 4. Prove it will work on the Entropy Gun which uses a shell instead of a beam.

Ok, let's take this 1 step at a time:

1. I have already shown feats of Highfather using his energy manipulation to turn back the attacks from others. I gave you THIS FEAT of him redirecting White Lantern energies and the energies of the Guardians. But, i guess you might want more. Here:

No Caption Provided

And, this is Izaya the Inheritor in his Infinity Man persona. Pre 52 IM was Drax, Darkseid's brother. However, post Flashpoint, Izaya is Darkseid's brother and has 2 personas. Highfather and Infinity Man.

He also manipulated the attack of Godly Empowered Mr Miracle (Would be way above the limits of this tourney).

No Caption Provided

2. Ah, the typical "my weapon is different, show me the exact feat of it working on my exact type of weapon"... First of all, Anti-Matter doesn't break the laws of physics. You are the one making the claim that energy manipulation wouldn't work on your ray weapons. The onus is on you to prove that claim.

3. Army of Darklings - So, my team has a total of 7 motherboxes that can do that for them. And, it's not like Highfather will let your team shoot away. He will be returning fire. And his attacks can easily cover the entire hemisphere as i have proven in this post.

4. Energy manipulation wouldn't work on the entropy gun to redirect the shot. However, Yhwach can just go Donald Trump on your ass and BUILD A WALL. See that building? That was Yhwach's doing, and it took him like a second. He has city level TK.

The rest of the tech:

In order for T'Challa to know something Reed does not he has to either 1. Be smarter. or 2. Intentionally withhold information.

Or they can just work on different aspects of the bomb. That is how it usually works when you have multiple experts on a single project. They split the job. After all, it is a shared feat. But, i have to say, i should definitely stop reflexively countering claims. I don't even mind this one. It's just a bomb.

True. He would likely make a non-defective one that would do more than commotose targets.

You do know he didn't make the defective on defective on purpose? It was defective because he failed to do it right. Stick to the feats you have.

Darklings Count as Summons

Look, just because you create something, that doesn't mean it is not a summon per tourney rules. We have had this discussion in the PM many times over by now. As long as it is autonomous, it is a summon. If Jackie has to actively "drive" it, it is a construct.

So, to make it as clear as i possibly can - you are not the first to try this, we have had this argument multiple times, and just because you are creating something, doesn't mean you can ignore the tourney rules. So, for now, let's say they are summons.

We can all agree that, if they are summons, a mountain busting blast that works by firing something as bright as Cyclop's attack would take them out. Again, if they are summons, Cyclops despatches them without difficulties.

But, let's ignore that and just beat your team even with them. Let's imagine they are constructs, and stipulate everything that goes with it.

Imagining Darklings are Constructs, and Beating Them as Such

But, to show that i understand your point. You are claiming that the darklings are essentially the same as the Lantern constructs. If that was true, they would disappear/shut down the instant Jackie was knocked unconscious. So, i will ask you, do they? And there are 2 reasons i am asking this, the first is that i really want to know, and the second is that it changes how this debate works.

Remember, my team gets basically full knowledge thanks to Yhwach, if Darklings are constructs, and thus indeed only depend on Jackie to direct their actions, they become useless if he is knocked out, my team would know about it. So, what do they need to do? Simple, knock him out. The next question is "can they?"

Well, he has been knocked out before. And it didn't really take anywhere near the amount of power Izaya possesses.

No Caption Provided

An attack such as this one will definitely knock Jackie out. I mean, he was once knocked out by a regular tank:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And this feat wasn't something from the beginning of Jackie's career in the nineties. It came from a comic published in 2010, when he already had his history of higher end feats. Now, you can argue that this is a low-end feat. However, what Izaya did in the scan right above this one is billions upon billions times better than what knocked Jackie out. AS you can see, Izaya's attack was larger than New Genesis.

And, once Jackie is knocked out, all of the weapons, all of the tech, all of the armies disappear. Otherwise, they would be summons. Not constructs.

However, you did bring up a planetary feat for Jackie that you could attempt to use to justify the notion of him standing a chance to survive a blast such as this one. So, let's debunk it.

Debunking Some of Jackie's Higher-End Feats

I wasn't originally going to do this, after all, most viners will drop out-of-context scans to display powers. However, i am afraid some people might accuse me of lowballing due to the tank scan. After all, you did post the planetary feat. However, there is a lot more to it than you revealed. Now, to be clear i will be talking about the planetary feat, and the "burning man". I will offer two debunks here. The first is contextual, and the other one is material.

Contextual Debunk

Let's start off with one thing probably every voter noticed - he is older in those scans.

However, that's something most would be willing to get over. However, the second, more important piece of debunking is really the bigger issue -THEY NEVER HAPPENED.

Both of those scans come from The Darkness #75. In that issue, Jackie visits a fortune-teller and that person tells him the story of his death.

No Caption Provided

So, to put it bluntly, neither of your scans actually happened is the hard counter. And the soft counter is that the future Jackie could be vastly superior to current Jackie.

Now, i will focus onto the functional debunk.

Functional Debunk

The planetary explosion killed Jackie. Plain and simple. How on Earth are you using the showing of him dying as a feat for him is beyond me. It was made clear that the only reason Magdalena could have fired off that planet-busting attack was because she spent untold centuries accruing the power for that feat. Otherwise, she is so far below planetary she wouldn't even understand the meaning of the word. She is essentially a high-street/Low-mid tier character.

The Prison Question

Your big point is that the prison Highfather used against the Lanterns was created solely for the use on the lanterns themselves. For that, you have no proof. The scans clearly read as simply counteracting any energy manipulation. To prove that, i have brought up the example of Parallax, as it proves, on panel that it doesn't only work on the constructs. Now, to that, you offered 4 separate counters. Allow me to showcase them.

1. Parallax is a construct.

This is factually incorrect. Allow me to Explain. In Sinestro Corps 11 and 12, we see Mongul creating tech capable of draining power rings to 0% charge in seconds. However, Parallax was immune to it as explained by Dez and Sinestro.

As you can see, this scan is perfect for our debate
As you can see, this scan is perfect for our debate

2. Parallax is Weak

Your next counter was that Parallax was weak "AF" these days. And, to prove that, you show him beating on Superman, but Superman managing to cause pain to it. Let's see what happened when Jackie and Superman fought Jackie (note, these are two separate pages, not saying they happened consecutively, just pointing out that Superman beat Jackie soundly).

No Caption Provided

So, to me, it sounds like Jackie and Parallax are definitely at similar power levels. With Parallax being above Jackie.

3. Manipulating Darkness Is Different Than Manipulating Light:

Your final counter is that your abilities are just too different from what the prison has shown to counter. To which, of course, there can never be found a direct answer until the exact same setting happens. After all, i could just use the argument that Jackie has never fought a God before and claim that none of his abilities would work on gods. And secondly, the Darkness sounds a lot like Parallax in the posts you used to describe them. I mean, Parallax is theentity of Living Fear. He is far from being just a construct. And, the Darkness is, well, the entity of dark. While you could argue that differences make it difficult for the prison to work, you can't really make a case for immunity. Furthermore, i need only to counteract the energy flow in the weapons you are making. And, from what i have seen, i could.

4. It's an NLF:

Not only is Parallax no longer as strong as he once was, but he is also made out of emotional energy which the prison counters. To say it somehow counters anyone weaker than Parallax is just NLF.

You used that term multiple times, however, it doesn't mean what you think it means. I have clearly set the boundaries (or limits, you know the "L" of the NLF) of the prison. It counters energy manipulation up to the power level of Parallax. How on Earth can that be a Non-Limit Fallacy, if both the scope of the power and the level of the power it operates on is defined clearly? In no point during the comic was it said that the prison counters "emotional energy" it simply states it counteracts energy.

Yhwach's Almighty

You seem to misunderstand what i meant when i said Yhwach becomes invulnerable to abilities he sees.

Can the Motherbox revive a dead person? Because while Yhwach might be able to gain immunity over time, he will be killed by TK on the spot.

She can bring back from the brink of death. When you are so close to dying the Black Racer is already there to collect your soul. However, that is not going to be a problem.

Yhwach will gain immunity during prep time. SImple as that. He looks into the future. Anything he sees, he understands, what he understands is his ally and thus cannot be harmed by it. This would be an NLF, however, i have shown him developing Immunity to Darkness Manipulation. A direct proof he could be immune to Jackie. He was in the end taken out by Ishida's "Anti-Thesis"+Silver arrow. The Anti-Thesis makes Uryuu Ishida capable of turning his enemies powers against them.

Unfortunately for you, you don't have the reality warping capability of antithesis now.

Depowering Yhwach

Superman+? You mean herald level? AKA Silver Surfer level? AKA de-powered easily level?

Yeah, good luck tagging someone who has future sight and can move at mach 11,000. I mean, sure, it could potentially work, however, there is no way in hell 200 fodder soldiers would ever manage to get a shot in the vicinity of Yhwach before my plan works and your team is beaten.

Why The Traps Will Work Like a Charm

As i have shown, Yhwach is incredibly capable when it comes to using his future sight to place reiatsu traps around the field. Of course, you attempted to counter the traps, and, you did a solid job. However, there is a very good reason why they will still win this for me. So, sure, i am willing to admit Reed and Jackie can take these traps and almost ignore them. But, Black and Darkling cannot. So, why does that mean i win?

1. Black is your TK guy, he does have Spidey sense, however, that is a very limited form of precog utterly incapable of outplaying Yhwach's future sight. Remember, he effortlessly tagged Ichigo with these traps, and Ichigo is massivelly hypersonic.

2. Darkling is the source of your "indestructible" darkness a. With Darkling out of the picture, Jackie is actually almost embarrassingly weak to light. Any sort of light.

Regular fire destroying his armor and leaving him significantly weakened
Regular fire destroying his armor and leaving him significantly weakened

Take, for example this regular fire. It completely destroyed the armor he was wearing and made him really weak. However, that is far from being the only example. In fact, there is an abundance of them. Like when he was depowered by a signal beam. He even get's depowered by regular sunlight. I can go on, and on, and on, and the fact will remain. His constructs don't hold up to light. Now, let's revisit what it looks like when Highfather lets loose and how much light is involved.

And Yhwach has his own bright attacks too. After all, Quincy arrows shine

No Caption Provided

Yeah, Jackie is out.

The Fight Starts When You Leave the Prison

I want the voters to understand a very important bit here. Sure, i am using the prison to get the upper hand, but i never relied on it to bring in the victory. It was but one of the ways my team can win. You don't win by getting out. You get to finally fight my team. And that is where you get screwed.

Countering your prolonged rant at the end

OK, this is already a long post, but i will take the time to comment on your rant in the end. Sure, with enough prep and a lucky shot, Reed has done incredible things. However, most of them stem from the fact that his opponents didn't perceive his tech as a threat. He was capable of blasting the Watcher because the Watcher didn't believe he would be harmed. Same goes for Galactus, the Celestial, and his son. And, BTW Galan was starving in the story where Reed depowered him.

Not to mention other context, like Galactus starving to the point of being incapable of beating Quasar.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

So, you posting a Galactus "respect thread" or a CaV, amounts to nothing at all.

No, to be quite honest you haven't really countered the big stuff. like for my entire army you merely said they were summons

Which they are. Armies are summons. However, in this post i also explained exactly how my team would be able to easily handle your army.

to my draining tech you merely tried to debunk my gear (which you didn't even do entirely as you gave the Watcher scan the thumbs up)

Well, there was honestly too much to counter in your post and still keep the post short enough to be replied to. My big points are the ability to shield or redirect the blasts while, at the same time shooting back with incredible power and precision.

and to the rest you offered a single scan which doesn't even work because in the fight sequence the scan takes place in, Orion gets hit with energy attacks, take a look

The scan i gave you still works. The fact that he was later tagged by other enemies means nothing. That would be like saying that Wolverine getting his balls blown off means he is utterly incapable of aim dodging. The ability is still there. But of course, check out the upper portion again to see that i have a lot more to offer when it comes to redirecting attacks than just the motherbox.

Yhwach dies before it happens. Durability is exactly what it avoids. Can Motherboxes heal the dead?

Yhwach becomes immune during prep. Black dies as a side-note of this fight. Jackie's constructs don't bypass durability at all. They were shown to kill people by ripping their flesh apart. SOmething they wouldn't be able to do to Highfather. And Motherboxes can heal from that type of damage in no time flat.

Nope. ET used an Iceman army on me last time, not sure why my army of darkness would be treated differently (unless you racist bro).

Darklings are autonomous and work differently than these constructs. The constructs Ice Man uses are just parts of his body as his "full potential" means he has full control over all water in the world. There were no summons there, just bobby in a really complicated form of a body.

Countering Your Short Conclusion

You cage us, we escape, we send an army after you, Yhwatch get one shot by Entropy gun or TK, X-Men get fodderized by various weaponry (turning them tiny or igniting their atoms) High Father is dog piled by an army with weapons built to stop mightier men, he gets overwhelmed and dies. GG no re.

Gotta say, i always hated it when people say "GG no re" after a post. It is never that simple. Namely, Yhwach can easily dodge any projectiles coming from your army of fodder. Highfather can easily blast through your armies and your team with a single blast. We are yet to see anything to prove otherwise. You even had a continuity error in your post. You used Post Crisis Lightning from Shazam to scale from for Darkling, while the showing you used was Pre-Crisis Mary Marvel instead. So, we are not quite yet at the "GG no re" portion of this debate. At this point you lack a single showing that would convince me your entire team doesn't get one-shot by Izaya.

The New Conclusions

You have made a really good team. However, they are all squishy and dependent on each other. Take out a single domino and they all topple over. Yhwach's traps or Highfather's precise attacks only need to take the Darkling out and your team is set for the picking out. Jackie is so weak to light that he won't be able to maintain his summons/constructs in the sunlight from the moment Darkling is out. And then, we have Highfather using a planetary level blast on your team and obliterating them.

Jackie was taken out by a tank shell. Now, i am not lowballing so hard to say that he is a low-building level. But i am saying that a planet-surface level attack that emits a lot of light will instantly take him out. And that takes out the entirety of your summons/constructs, every single piece of tech, and the fight is over. Your plan was good, but you were simply outclassed from the get-go regarding power levels.

Bullet Points

Since this was another long post i will, again, give bullet points on what i wrote.

1. The Bridge - You lack feats of prep with that bridge in it's entirety. What is the most detail about a character or a fight Reed ever got using the bridge?

2. The Pitch Black - The actual feat has her covering 5000 miles in a couple of minutes.Nothing more. She covers an area of the state during your prep. You have no other quantification here.

3. The Devil Quote - Apart for the fact that you shouldn't believe the devil, a statement such as that one doesn't quantify her powers in a meaningful way.

4. The Mech Armor - Lacks feats, has a single punching showing of a powerful punch. However, that punch doesn't really beat out even the mountain busting blasts Yhwach easily blocked.

5. Draining Tech - Only works half the time, when it does, it can be blocked, dodged, redirected.

6. You Putting Your Foot In Your Mouth- You say Jackie is not an energy manipulator, and then you say he would get amped by a machine that simply supplies energy. Contradiction at it's finest.

7. Redirecting - We saw mother box reverse the polarities of weapons and have them fire at their shooters. However, in this post, we can see that Highfather can redirect attacks much more efficiently.

8. Darklings - Summons or not

8.1. If Yes - They must fall within limits. Cyclops solos them all

8.2. If No - They can be more powerful. However, taking out Darkling (and we all agree she gets taken out) leaves them open to Cyclops soloing them all again.

9. Jackie Debunks - The best feats for Jackie never actually happened.And, even in that future, he actually dies from the planetary plan.

10. The Parallax question - Not an NLF, proven, Parallax is still >= Jackie, Parallax is not just a construct, the prison simply counteracts any energy signature.

11. The Immunity - Yhwach develops immunity by looking into the future. I limited him only to the abilities he has already shown immunity to and he already is immune to Darkness manipulation.

12. The Traps vs Darkling- You agree that Darkling will die due to his traps. All they have to do. And she is really easy to kill as she lacks durability feats apart for trading a couple of blows with Mary Marvel.

13. The Traps vs Black - Getting the exact overview of the future and planting traps can outplay the Spidey sense. Black has no durability and, once he is out, your team loses their TK/TP Threat.

14. Conclusion - You have a nice plan, but one that comes with the self-destruct button. Without Darkling, your team simply falls apart. Without her darkness, Jackie loses his powers in the sunlight, all of your tech disappears and my team walks all over who is left standing.

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#49 Posted by emperorthanos- (16787 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (18096 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos-: One more from me