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#51 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: So, were Maka and Yato also included under "cancer teams"? xD

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#52 Posted by DeathHero61 (18759 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: So, were Maka and Yato also included under "cancer teams"? xD

Nah I could have handled that if it wasn't for Maka's BS Noise Change crap. Your long ranged attacks weren't doing shit and could be stopped directly by Silver's TK considering it handled more potent energies, from more powerful attacks.

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#53 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: That wasn't really the impression your scans gave. Plus, if he really were some world level reality warper, then kinda breaks rules. Also the type of attacks you redirected were pretty different from pressure cutting.

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#54 Posted by Sawed_Off_It (13250 posts) - - Show Bio
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#55 Edited by DeathHero61 (18759 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto said:

@deathhero61: That wasn't really the impression your scans gave. Plus, if he really were some world level reality warper, then kinda breaks rules. Also the type of attacks you redirected were pretty different from pressure cutting.

He doesn't though, the person he was fighting was outright stronger than him in every way, Silver couldn't even put a scratch on him or phase him, but he had the skill and ability to redirect any type of energy. It wasn't Silver's raw power that allowed him to do that, otherwise he wouldn't have needed the redirection ability in the first place. So composite Silver was within the limits.

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#56 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16108 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: You´re going to make me bring up the goodies, I was saving them for the finals, but your team is tough, so I´ll have to use them, and you´ll be doomed.

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#57 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio

@thor_parker82 said:

@zetsumoto: You´re going to make me bring up the goodies, I was saving them for the finals, but your team is tough, so I´ll have to use them, and you´ll be doomed.

Cool! Is this going to be our last post though? Because all the other matches have already been decided.

Plus, I always like 2-3 post CaVs anyways.

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#58 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16108 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: I don´t know, it´ll probably be our last post unless there is something really important that is left to be said.

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#59 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio
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#60 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16108 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: My freaking internet was failing and I didn´t have a chance to use my computer for more than 20 minutes in the span of every 5-7 hours, I barely worked in my post but it seems that my internet is fine now, I´m really sorry for the delay, I´m already halfway through, will post in 2-4 days.

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#61 Posted by Sawed_Off_It (13250 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#62 Edited by Thor_Parker82 (16108 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto:

Round 3

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The most advanced genius in the history of the Marvel Universe and a physically nigh-invulnerable beast recently called "the ultimate judgement" against the gods, these two compose my powerful team and were chosen for a purpose, one provides great hax and prep, whereas the other is sheer physical prowess, simply put, this team is your doom.

The Dome vs Limbo

Now I have been using the Dome for a variety of purposes like giving me possible scenarios and using its resources to prep my team, but its real prowess had been left untouched until this point, your team requires more precise prep due to your use of Limbo and creation blades, but nothing the immortal genius Reed Richards can´t handle, now beware The City in its full splendor, you´re about to see what real power looks like.

As far as I am aware, the City does not have true precognitive abilities, rather it functions much like the Battle Computer. As such, it has the limitation in that all of it's predictions are based on the information presented to it. You have very little information to present, as all you have is a basic knowledge perk. Basic knowledge will give you the general gist of my character's abilities, but it will NOT tell you how they function or the full extent it can be used.

You are right in one thing, the predictions that The City can make are based on the information presented to it, so far I was limiting myself to use the basic knowledge perk, but seeing that Limbo lets you take a look at pretty much anything you want, I remembered a very important thing, so does The City.

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The City allows Reed to watch and scour through all of space and time throughout the entire multiverse, he can also see all of your past, the battles you´ve had, your common approach to fights, he can see if you wash your hands after you go to the bathroom, nothing you´ve ever done is hidden for The Maker. Now Reed solely needs to command The City to analyze every single fight any of your team members has ever been in and the computer will have ALL the data needed to create the perfect tactic/scenario to take out your characters and think of a counter to anything your team might try, now considering that The City has seen and analyzed every single fight your team has ever been in.

Limbo sees many possible futures and it also shows the choices that Magik can make that leads up to each of those futures. All she has to do is look for the future with a desirable outcome, look at the choices she makes that lead to said outcome (which by the way, would be a future that already accounts for your precognition), and bam that is THE future.

That´s nice and all, but you haven´t taken into account that there might not be a future with a desirable outcome for your team, you´re relying on Limbo showing you the "right choices" while trying to brush off your responsibility of providing a scenario where your team wins. So far the only scenario you´ve brought is Black blitzing my team with the creation blades, everything else in your posts has been "Limbo will tell Magik what to do". I might also be relying on The City to run scenarios and counters, but at least I´m also providing several scenarios while at it.

At this point, since The City has analyzed every single moment in your team´s lives and every decision they have ever made, Reed will know that Limbo shows Magik possible futures, so The City will have a scenario to counter that as well.

Now what we really need to look at here is: Trust in the most advanced computer on the universe to lay out a detailed plan after examining every single moment of your team´s lives or trust in a chick that looked into several futures and will try to do the correct choices on the run, while failing in one of them could lead to instant doom.

Tech vs Magik

Now I think this shouldn´t even be addressed, people with common sense won´t even take your argument on this subject, better to just forget you ever did it, I mean, you´re trying to out-Reed Ultimate Reed, who in turn out-Reed´ed 616 Reed.......lol.

As a little known fact... Magik is actually a powerful technomancer, capable of bending even the highly adaptive Sentinels to her will. Hell, even her demons have the power to possess inanimate objects, including machinery. 200 gremlins running around your prep is going to backfire pretty hard.

The fact that you are attempting this is an insult to Reed. "Sentinels" "possesing machinery" !! Machinery !! Freaking MACHINERY !! The fact that you´re even trying to compare those to some of the most advanced technological achievments the multiverse has seen in insulting to say the least.

You are not taking control of my tech, that´s hilarious man, 1610 Reed has hacked Kree technology, the same race who created Gah Lak Tus in the Ultimate Universe, he´s hacked Doctor Doom´s bots and re-wired them into cleaning devices, he´s created a Big Bang gun, he had an IQ of 247 at age 16, hell even an infinity gem, namely the mind gem (who manifests as a brain tumour with a personality in Tony Stark´s brain) which by the way has 1/6 of universal-level reality warping, failed to get past Reed´s firewalls, mentioning it would take 500 years or a computer the size of a solar system to hack The Maker´s technology.

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You ain´t hacking The Maker.

You haven't shown any feats proving Mangog would be able to tag her. Rachel has traded blows with the FTL Gladiator

You know who else has traded blows with the "FTL" Gladiator ?? Thor.......and Heimdall, yet Mangog has utterly and literally stomped both of them on several occasions.

Thor vs Gladiator:

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Thor vs Mangog:

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Magik´s and Rachel´s stats are mid-tier at best, whereas Thor constantly showcases planetary durability, yet Mangog almost knocked him out with a couple of strikes, he will decimate Magik and Rachel without much trouble and I can´t see how you can argue otherwise considering the sheer disparity and huge gap in their physicals.

Time Restraints

You don´t have the time to accomplish anything noteworthy with just 2.5 hours of prep.

Everyone makes this argument. It never goes anywhere.

  1. All the information my characters could possibly need, can be gleamed from looking at futures in which we win. The rest is simply to cover our bases.
  2. To characters with the processing speeds that my characters have, 2.5 hours may as well be billions of lifetimes. lmao

Lets start with Black. You know, the guy who can react in nano-seconds? Do you realize how much time one can view in straightforward with nano-second processing speed? 7 million years.

You keep saying that you need to look into the futures you win, but you are forgetting that it´s your job to debate for how your characters will win, so far everything you´ve presented is guess work with no aim and no scenario provided, as for the processing speeds, your only fast character is Black and it´s useless because of several reasons.

  • Your other characters can´t keep up with him
  • Based on what you´ve presented, Black is not a prep character, so he won´t know what the hell to do.
  • His perception may be that of "7 millions years" but everything outside still happens at normal speed, he can´t gleam into the future at superspeed unless Limbo has shown that as well.

Black is not doing squat.

Oh, and all of my characters can enter the astral plane. In Marvel and a lot of other media; the astral plane heightens your perception of time to such an extreme degree, that distance and time become meaningless altogether

That is time manipulation and it´s against the rules in this tourney, you only have 2.5 hours of prep however you want to look at it, this was confirmed by EMPERORTHANOS, otherwise I could use The Dome´s trademark time dilation in which 5 hours turn into hundreds of years, now that would be unfair to you.

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Bottom line, you don´t have enough time to achieve the things you want, and at this point, I don´t know what the hell you want since you have yet to provide an actual scenario of how your team would beat mine, which is simply not happening.

The Dome

Let´s see.

First off, I am not sure how the dome is supposed to help you since the battlefield is an entirely different dimension from your own. You are going to have to prove you are capable of taking the entire Dome to the battlefield with you...

Actually, I can take The Dome anywhere I want, it has the ability to fly, so Reed can take it anywhere he wants without any problem whatsoever, bad news for you because you´re not bypassing it.

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Even if you did, Magik has precision teleporting, and could simply teleport the Dome's central AI into a volcano or into the sun

First, she would need to know where exactly is the central AI, secondly she would need to get inside The Dome to search for it, neither is happening, Magik won´t get inside without Reed´s permission, The Dome has automatic defenses that attack anyone who tries to trespass, while she tries to get around them, she gets killed and/or de-evolved into a helpless ape.

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In the highly unlikely case she managed to get inside The Dome, she would need to search and find the AI which is heavily guarded and Reed will have put failsafes for the failsafes and traps for the traps and even implanting a fake AI to fool Magik considering he knows the full extent of Magik´s capabilities. Now, she is trapped inside The Dome surrounded by even more Children of Tomorrow (I didn´t summon them, my 200 summons are outside, but you just got into my territory), First Knife who alone stomped and humilliated Ultimate Thor plus all of The City´s inner defenses, so it doesn´t matter if you can get inside The Dome or if you can´t, either scenario ends with Magik dead.

Invisibility =/= Cloaking. Invisibility is rudimentary compared to the types of spells utilized by the likes of Dr Strange, Magik, and Loki. Magik's cloaking spell invokes the power of Cytorrak himself, and can hide her from cosmic entities (as in cosmic awareness) that tracked the team's location down to the very planet they were on

That´s nice and all, but still not on The City´s level, you have to understand you are dealing with Marvel´s smartest character further evolved and intelectually amped a thousand years into the future. Case in point, The City was capable of detecting the Incursions and even pinpointing when and where they were going to happen, something abstracts and characters like Dormammu, Death, Celestials, Odin and the likes didn´t even knew about the Incursions until it was too late.

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Bottom line, you ain´t invisible for my team.

Prep Time 2.0

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Strategy A

Now, prepare to die, I like organizing my attack plans and strategies into different sections, it is way easier to read and more pleasurable to the eyes, and so it begins.

Note: This is yet another scenario of the many I have presented. As readers of this tourney have probably noticed already, unlike most participants, I don´t limit myself to a single attack plan/scenario, I like to provide different tactics so readers and voters can decide which one is most likely to happen based on how the debate progresses.

As shown above, The Maker (Ultimate Reed Richards) can bring The Dome wherever he goes, and thanks to that, he doesn´t even need to move a finger to win this match, he can sit in his favorite spot like a boss and watch how it all goes down according to the plan laid out by The City who (as discussed in the counters above) previously analyzed every single second, every single decision and knows every bit there is to know about your characters.

Now while Reed is comfortably inside The Dome, the previously mentioned Children of Tomorrow are outside forming a barricade and charging into your characters, now they begin as Spider-Man level per the rules, but one of their main powers is adapting, their exoskeleton combined with their unique physiology makes them some kind of adaptoids.

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As soon as they start fighting, they´ll adapt, evolve and become powerful enough to face your characters, they even beat Ultimate Odin after adapting to him, now the only problem here is still Black and his speed but I´m pretty sure that if they could beat freaking Odin after adapting, they can do the same to Black.

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If you don´t like guess work (even though that is what you have been doing in your posts :P) I can provide a counter for speedblitz, and it´s a simple one really, you´ll see in a minute.

The Children of Tomorrow isn´t the only thing you need to worry about though, The City has its own fleet of ships, and those fleet of ships have their own fleet of ships, each one capable of tanking the entire weaponry from a Helicarrier, so now on top of fighting 200 adaptoids on the ground, you also need to worry about dozens of fleets of ships more powerful than Helicarriers firing their weaponry at you.

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Now let´s see how that would go so far, Rachel tries telekinesis on "COT" and a couple perish against her, the others adapt and proceed to kill her like they killed 616 Black Bolt, and by the way, my "COT" are shielded against telepathy thanks to the Neural Valence device.

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This device makes Reed and Mangog immune to telepathy, and even if Rachel tried to use telepathy on us, since Reed is comfortably sitting inside The Dome, he can do the same thing he did against an omega level omnipath and just hijack the carrier (in this case Rachel) and as you pointed out, use her own telepathy against her.

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Magik gets overwhelmed by sheer numbers either on the outside or inside The Dome, she´ll find herself surrounded by an army of Children of Tomorrow, and just to give you an even better idea of just how quicly they adapt, you need to look at "Ultimates by Hickman #7" where it is stated that the people of Tian have numerous omega level mutants.

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Yet, The Maker´s army utterly stomped and decimated all of their population which was in the thousands of mutants, this goes to prove how they adapt on the fly to pretty much any power presented to them, be it magical, biological, technological, nothing is off-limits for what they can adapt, I mean, they countered magic with tech (depowering Odin), something the likes of 616 Tony, Pym, Reed and geniuses have failed multiple times.

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Simply put, Magik and Rachel are not surviving against two hundred "COT" who adapted and slaughtered thousands of mutants whom included several omega level characters.

Defeating Black with creation blades

After some thought, I realized that dealing directly with Black was too dificult, but also unnecessary since I can deal with him without any of my characters touching him, you may ask how, well it´s fairly simple to be honest, as soon as the fight starts, I teleport his creation blades out of his reach and into the center of the sun never to be found again, or I could simply teleport Black himself either to the N-Zone or to another planet.

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Magik won´t get him out since she won´t know where exactly Black was sent since Reed can teleport him to the other side of the universe, to another multiverse/alternate universe or to a pocket dimension as well.

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Anyway, once he´s in there, I have several ways of killing him, an option is to unleash the Nevada gun on his ass through the gateway which carries the blast to the desired spot, by the way, the Nevada gun is also know as the BIG BANG GUN, which literally carries the power of a focused big bang from another universe which Reed condensed into a badass weapon.

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The other option is to use the gateway as well and simply unleash the World-Worm which is a planet destroying singularity used by The Maker to kill other worlds during the incursions, or just use the planet busting anti-matter weapons he used previous to the World-Worm, the ones like the Illuminati used.

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Choose your favorite option.

Come to think of it, I could pull this strategy on both Rachel and Black and they´re out the second this fight starts.

The only possible "counter" you could bring to this would be that Limbo may have shown you that this is a tactic Reed might try, now the real question is, what good would it do to you knowing that ?? You can´t remotely begin to prevent that from happening with just 2.5 hours of prep, even if you know this tactic will be used, you can´t prevent it from happening, and remember that The Maker will know everything you might try thanks to The City analyzing every single moment of your team´s lives.

Now another great aspect that I haven´t touched upon are Reed´s nano-cameras which he can teleport to Limbo and use them to spy everything your team does without them even knowing like he did in "ANAD New Avengers #1". Limbo´s ability of future-seeing won´t let them know about the microscopic cameras for a very simple reason, The Maker knows that Limbo can see the future, so all he has to do is shut his mouth and just do not speak about them during the battle, Magik can´t look for something that she doesn´t even know it´s there.

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All Magik will see is that Reed seems to know everything she planned for but does not know the reason why. Now speaking about Magik, after my delicious scenario I provided above where I kill both Black and Rachel with planet busting anti-matter bombs or with a focused Big Bang, you only have Magik left to fight against 200 "COT" who decimated Asgard and killed thousands of mutants with omega level threats members, dozens of fleet ships more powerful than helicarriers and the invulnerable Mangog charging against her, she is simply outclassed.

Now you may say that she´ll BFR them, but BFR is not a win per the rules of here, sure you can teleport them elsewhere but you still need to defeat them for it to count as a win, and up until this point, you still don´t even know where Reed is or even if you knew he is heavily guarded by the City´s automatic defenses "Invincible under the Sun" which allows The Dome to modify its own form to make weapons.

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If by some miracle Magik isn´t taken out by the two hundred "COT", the dozens of fleet ships and Mangog, while she is busy dealing with threats on all sides, The Maker will use his depowering gun on her, by the way, this depowered gun worked just fine on Iceman (who carries the X gene just as Illyana) and freaking Ultimate Phoenix Force, so Magik will certainly fall to it.

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Scenario B

This is a simple and short one, I just make a really powerful weapon that works on sub-atomic levels you might have heard its name, most people call it THE COSMIC CUBE.

You read that right, in the Ultimate Universe, Reed Richards created the cosmic cube, due to some shenanigans that happened in the story that I would take forever to explain, the cube ended up beyond reach to anyone, however Reed left blueprints on how to re-create it, those same blueprints were used by no-name AIM scientists and they actually re-created the cosmic cube in 48 hours.

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The Maker can just grab his own blueprints on the cosmic cube and make one again, you may argue that he can´t make it in 5 hours, but that would be unpractical to argue, no-name AIM scientists re-created the cube in just 48 hours, The Maker and his technology are literally thousands of years old more advanced (he is that old) than anything in any earth od the Marvel multiverse, I see no reason why he couldn´t do in 5 hours what a bunch of no names did in 48 hours.

As for feats, they are very impressive, we are talking about a cosmic cube after all, for transmutation abilities, it turned War Machine into toys, and turned God Thor into a helpless tree.

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It can be used to mind control people, according to Ultimate Thanos, it´s impossible to break free of its control unless the wielder desires it, which happened in this case as Reed took control over the Cube and freed Johnny and Sue.

You probably want more feats though, so I´ll show you several more.

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  • 1- Turns an energy being into flesh
  • 2- One shots all The Ultimates
  • 3- Reshapes planet Earth
  • 4- Turns ocean to stone
  • 5- Creates a tower out of thin air
  • 6- Reed fixes the planet and undoes Thanos´ actions.

For more information on the cosmic cube, read "Ultimate Fantastic Four #50-53"

If you tried to take it away from my grasp, let me tell you that it is a useless tactic, as the cosmic cube responds solely to The Maker´s thoughts, it literally is just a shiny cube in your hands, a useless shiny cube, whereas Reed Richards controls its real power with his mind and makes any feature of the cube unaccesible to someone else.

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You will probably try to claim that it´s against the rules because a cosmic cube warps reality and reality warping is not allowed in this tourney, well sadly for you, this cosmic cube is just as powerful but it´s science-based, it doesn´t warp reality, it is basically a weapon that manipulates atoms and molecules, I´ll let Reed explain it himself (this was before he figured out how to build it).

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Summary

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Your team dies.

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#63 Posted by Sawed_Off_It (13250 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh man, I'm going to have a blast reading this one.

Looks promising.

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#64 Posted by deactivated-5a794b61068b8 (7203 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't think I remembered to tag for this one. Tag.

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#65 Posted by Sawed_Off_It (13250 posts) - - Show Bio

This open for Votes?

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#66 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#67 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio
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#68 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#69 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio

@thor_parker82:

My Counters:

Limbo vs Dome

You are right in one thing, the predictions that The City can make are based on the information presented to it, so far I was limiting myself to use the basic knowledge perk, but seeing that Limbo lets you take a look at pretty much anything you want, I remembered a very important thing, so does The City.

To bad you didn't remember (or willfully ignored) the fact that I already addressed why that wouldn't work even if you did have that type of power. Once again, Limbo is described as a tangled web of probability. Involvement from Limbo can render the time-stream IMPOSSIBLE to navigate unless you are the one who controls limbo itself.

Kang can scan the time-stream and travel through it, much the same way that you are describing, yet when Limbo is involved; he can't even see the past, much less the future. Even methods as simplistic and abstract as spider-senses utterly fail when Limbo is involved.

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Hell, when Limbo is involved, even time travel itself becomes chaotic due to the shapes and changes that happen as Limbo pushes time towards the desired future:

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So yea. Good luck trying to "scour" space and time.

Even if you managed to gleam some information (which you won't), all you'd be able to make of it are probability (which again, are rendered chaotic because of passive influence from Limbo) based predictions. I on the other hand, would have full knowledge of a future in which my team wins in spite of whatever plans you make based on these predictions.

Also, your scan doesn't provide any info on how much time it took to "scour the multiverse".

I mean, you question my ability to prep with time-constraints, yet you really didn't make much effort to back it up on your end either. All you have are "5 hours".

you haven´t taken into account that there might not be a future with a desirable outcome for your team

I don't need to take it into account. I have already proven that I have tons of ways to take your team down. I only need one method. With Limbo at my disposal, even a 0.00000001% chance of success would be turned into 100%.

you´re relying on Limbo showing you the "right choices" while trying to brush off your responsibility of providing a scenario where your team wins. So far the only scenario you´ve brought is Black blitzing my team with the creation blades, everything else in your posts has been "Limbo will tell Magik what to do". I might also be relying on The City to run scenarios and counters, but at least I´m also providing several scenarios while at it.

This debate has been rather enjoyable. Easily one of the most challenging high tier CaVs I have been in. I don't want to ruin this fun rivalry by sounding salty or turning this into something heated. That said... the above paragraph is an outright lie.

I am sorry, but I don't know why you would even attempt to make this line of argument. It's such a blatant disregard for every single post I have made thus far that if I were a voter I'd vote against you on that paragraph alone.

My very first post went right into three different ways in which my team could eliminate yours. I literally showed that every single one of my characters had at least one method of taking out a member of your team. From Black skipping straight from limbo to incapacitating both of your characters (within a fraction of a fraction of a nano-second) via creation-blade (again, the blade can be used to chop through Mangog, as well as paralyzeRichard), to Rachel's black-hole level telekinesis, to Magik simply teleporting your characters into pieces (which has worked on star level enemies) or reducing them to dust from a distance (portals can be opened light-yearsaway).

My second post only further elaborated on the above. I introduced counters for every single one of your tactics. I elaborated on how I can use magic and summons to disrupt your technology, the fact hat Magik's Soul Sword can obliterate Mangog and soul-steal the Maker. I even showed that I could use your OWN weapons against you simply by teleporting them back.

To top it off, every single one of those strategies is dynamic and can be mixed/matched/utilized on an as needed basis. The only thing I am relying on Limbo's precognition for is the logistics. Knowing what traps you'll set so that I can utilize proper counters. Knowing which abilities will succeed, where to position portals to avoid counter-attacks/ensure-success, what abilities not to use, who to prioritize, where/what your vulnerabilities are, and so on.

The irony, is that you didn't even introduce any of these super complex prep strategies until your third post. The very same post in which you suddenly argued that you are the "only one" coming up with strategies. Compare the strategy section of my opener to the scenario section (that you didn't even have until your second post), for reference, and tell me again that I was the one lacking a solid strategy.

At this point, since The City has analyzed every single moment in your team´s lives and every decision they have ever made, Reed will know that Limbo shows Magik possible futures, so The City will have a scenario to counter that as well.

False. You are relying on probabilities and guess work based on information you don't even have. Limbo shows me a concrete future in which we win despite anything you do as well as how to make that future become THE future.

Now what we really need to look at here is: Trust a science based computer with no presented feats of dealing with mysticism... Or trust the girl who not only interferes with the computer's ability to make predictions, but also knows how to win the battle before it starts, and has a history of using precognition to perform long-running cons against beings more powerful than herself?

Tech vs Magik:

Now I think this shouldn´t even be addressed, people with common sense won´t even take your argument on this subject, better to just forget you ever did it, I mean, you´re trying to out-Reed Ultimate Reed, who in turn out-Reed´ed 616 Reed.......lol.

Not really. Magik's methods are completely different. Magik is well... Magical. She plays by her own rules, and forces you to play by them too.

Also, "out-Reed'd 616 Reed"? All he did was back-stab him. lmao

It's not like they had a tech war or anything like that.

You are not taking control of my tech, that´s hilarious man, 1610 Reed has hacked Kree technology, the same race who created Gah Lak Tus in the Ultimate Universe, he´s hacked Doctor Doom´s bots and re-wired them into cleaning devices, he´s created a Big Bang gun, he had an IQ of 247 at age 16, hell even an infinity gem

lol which of those feats involves him dealing with mysticism? Magik isn't a hacker. She's not uploading a virus, or trying crack a firewall.

She bypasses those things all together. Magik can hijack the very energies that allow your machines to function in the first place. You're basically doing the AI equivalent of trying to use TP blocking feats to counter soul attacks.

Furthermore, it's a spell, which in itself makes it vastly different from anything Richards has had to deal with.. Again, not only is magic notoriously hard to understand for scientists in the Marvel universe, bu magic resistance is ALSO a thing. You can't just treat magic in marvel like a conventional form of attack. Phoenix force is one of the most powerful sources of molecular manipulation powers you can ask for, yet even that falls to Limbo transmutation magic:

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Magik herself, has even overpowered people previously declared "immune" to magic:

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And that's just one of her methods of controlling machines.

Others include demonic possession or animation. Again, she isn't hacking your machines. She's turning them into living beings. Demonic entities with their own free wills and instinctual loyalty to the Queen of Limbo. What are you going to do when your dome all of that technology you oh so rely on; literally comes to LIFE and tries to devour your mind and soul?

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namely the mind gem (who manifests as a brain tumour with a personality in Tony Stark´s brain) which by the way has 1/6 of universal-level reality warping, failed to get past Reed´s firewalls, mentioning it would take 500 years or a computer the size of a solar system to hack The Maker´s technology.

This is wrong on so many levels:

  1. As far as I can tell from your scan, Tony was not utilizing any powers in that scene. All he used the mind-gem for was access to it's immense intelligence/processing power.
  2. The mind-gem is not "1/6th" of any sort of reality warping power. The mind gem deals with the mind. It's psionic in nature. Reality warping is the jurisdiction of the reality gem.
  3. You haven't provided the gem with any feats. This isn't the 616 mind-gem. Its origin is completely different (see the ultimates section). In the Ultimates verse there aren't even "6 gems" there are 8, which are split between 2 gauntlets. Again, we can't just assume it's the same power as the mainstream version of the item. They are separate verses with separate power levels. Need I remind you that Ultimate Dormmamu got taken out by Johnny and Susan Storm?
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You know who else has traded blows with the "FTL" Gladiator ?? Thor.......and Heimdall, yet Mangog has utterly and literally stomped both of them on several occasions.

Thor is a slugger. He can tag fast characters because he has some immense striking speed, but he himself is not all that fast. His entire fight style is about tanking hits and dishing them back.

It's vastly different from Rachel who is primarily a ranged fighter and will not brawl if she knows she's outclassed. She's fast enough to outpace Gladiator in flight speed. If she wants to keep her distance, you are NOT closing that gap. Especially when she's seen the future and knows what to avoid.

She can easily use psionic blasts and tk to hinder your movements as Magik assassinates you.

Again, you have not posted ANY counters to Magik simply teleporting him into pieces.

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Nor are you fast enough to prevent Magik from one shotting him with a Soul Sword. Which again, is powerful enough to threaten Mephisto in his own dimension and kill a dimension devouring entity:

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Magik´s and Rachel´s stats are mid-tier at best, whereas Thor constantly showcases planetary durability, yet Mangog almost knocked him out with a couple of strikes, he will decimate Magik and Rachel without much trouble and I can´t see how you can argue otherwise considering the sheer disparity and huge gap in their physicals.

Black hole TK and throwing down with Gladiator in a fist fight makes her "mid tier at best"? lol what?

Between the Black's speed + creation blades +portals, soul sword + portals, and simple telefrag; I have so many ways of instantly taking out Mangog, that I don't even know why you are trying to hype him as a threat anymore.

That said, Magik can most certainly handle him. She has tanked blasts from Legion and hits from S'ym (a demon strong enough to snap Adamantium like twigs):

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Not to mention that we would be magically cloaked.

Time Constraints:

You don´t have the time to accomplish anything noteworthy with just 2.5 hours of prep.

Unlike you, I am not trying to pull deus ex machina super-weapons out of my arse. All the tools necessary to take down your team are completely at my disposal. All my 2.5 hours are spent doing is to view the future (more specifically, a fight that likely wouldn't last more than 10 seconds with the way our strategies work), some of your history, and work out some logistics.

No part of my strategy requires more than 2.5 hours.

You keep saying that you need to look into the futures you win, but you are forgetting that it´s your job to debate for how your characters will win, so far everything you´ve presented is guess work with no aim and no scenario provided,

lol again with this nonsense? I am not sure what's more clear cut than opening a portal right next to you and having black eliminate both members of your team at super-speed with the creation-blade. Or teleporting them into pieces. Or dropping an army of demons in the middle of your city and letting them run havoc with your machines.

as for the processing speeds, your only fast character is Black and it´s useless because of several reasons.

So you're just going to ignore two whole sections in which I proved that both Rachel and Magik can keep up in thought speed? Magik reacts to explosions, Thor's lightning blats/hammer throws, and can calculate the trajectory of interstellar space-ships. Rachel can keep up with gladiator and use telepathy on a galactic scale...

Black is not a prep character, so he won´t know what the hell to do.

You realize you are talking about THE devil. Right? The abstract embodiment of despair. The origin of evil (well, at least up until Jesus Christ rendered him a passive observer up until the first great collapse).

You're talking about a guy who (with prep) created a device that allowed him to steal the "All Seeing Eyes of God", which he then used to destroy a barrier that was preventing his world's equivalent of an incursion.

Not to mention defacto leader of the "Thirteen Kings" (one of which is the King of Depravity whose characterization can be summed up as "If the Riddler were a fallen angel" and is a master of alchemy; capable of mixing concoctions to create super monsters at the same time as he cooks omelets)

All we need right now are simple logistics. You haven't even countered a basic strategy like Black simply cutting you to bits with the creation blade.

Even disregarding that, as well as disregarding the fact that both Magik and Rachel also have absurd perception speed; Rachel could simply read his mind and share that knowledge with Magik.

His perception may be that of "7 millions years" but everything outside still happens at normal speed, he can´t gleam into the future at superspeed unless Limbo has shown that as well.

Everything about Limbo is entirely subject to Magik's will:

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So yea, viewing or showing people things in super-speed should be entirely within her capabilities.

Even disregarding that, all the important things we need to see can be seen in the battle itself. A battle, which again, will likely not last more than 10 seconds. Hell, it probably won't last longer than a nano-second with Black running around.

That is time manipulation and it´s against the rules in this tourney, you only have 2.5 hours of prep however you want to look at it, this was confirmed by EMPERORTHANOS, otherwise I could use The Dome´s trademark time dilation in which 5 hours turn into hundreds of years, now that would be unfair to you.

It's not time-manipulation because they aren't manipulating time, they are manipulating their perception speeds. It's advanced telepathy. It's no different from someone like Xavier, Valkorian, Itachi, or Martian Manhunter having lengthy conversations with you in your head before even a second has past.

As for time dilation, it wouldn't really be all that unfair as Limbo can do that too.

The Dome:

Actually, I can take The Dome anywhere I want, it has the ability to fly, so Reed can take it anywhere he wants without any problem whatsoever, bad news for you because you´re not bypassing it.

What? How does "flight" translate to being able to bring the Dome to a battlefield that doesn't exist in the Ultimate's verse? Even if this indestructible planet was part of the 1610 marvel verse (which it's not), how are you going to fly the Dome to the planet within 5 hours?

The only things characters can bring to the battlefield are stuff they can carry on their person. So unless you can shrink that city and stick it in your pocket, or teleport the entire city to the battlefield; you don't have access to the Dome.

First, she would need to know where exactly is the central AI. secondly she would need to get inside The Dome to search for it, neither is happening

What? We have long since established that Magik has immense sensing abilities that allow her to track spaceships across the galaxy. In fact, she has even tracked people in completely different dimensions, while imprisoned:

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We have also established that she can view the future in which we win and if that requires locating your central AI then we would already see it in that timeline.

Furthermore, she can Scry the layout of the Dome and learn exactly where specific things are placed. She can even use teleportation to circumvent the traps:

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While the exposition does explain that the amount of time it takes doesn't matter because no one on the outside would notice them gone; you can clearly see this was all done nearly instantly, as there was no mention of a delay between the two panels.

Magik won´t get inside without Reed´s permission, The Dome has automatic defenses that attack anyone who tries to trespass, while she tries to get around them,

Really? Is that why Falcon got in just fine and was only detected because the sound of his breathing? Magik could teleport right in. In fact, she doesn't even need to do that, because I have already established that she can do things from a distance.

she gets killed and/or de-evolved into a helpless ape.

So you are just going to ignore, that I already showed a feat of transmutation resistance?

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That was without her armor. Her eldritch armor rendered her completely immune. Note, this is a transmutation attack that even Nova and Cable have issues dealing with (In the latter case, it's the entire reason he has a cybernetic body--- note, I didn't feel like tracking the scan in which he was initially infected, but a quick read of his origin story on any wiki will explain that he is infected and his body is constantly at risk for being consumed by it):

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Not to mention she can teleport things without being anywhere near them:

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Now, she is trapped inside The Dome surrounded by even more Children of Tomorrow (I didn´t summon them, my 200 summons are outside, but you just got into my territory)

Umm, no. Anything you take with you to the battlefield (which consists of the entire planet) is a summon. If we were to follow your logic, I can merge the planet with Limbo and thus not only get more than 200 demons but ALSO get high tier level entities like S'ym and N'astrith and claim that it's "not summoning".

The City was capable of detecting the Incursions and even pinpointing when and where they were going to happen, something abstracts and characters like Dormammu, Death, Celestials, Odin and the likes didn´t even knew about the Incursions until it was too late.

Do any of them besides Odin even care about Incursions?

Also, I fail to see how this connects to locating invisible people. The last time an invisible person infiltrated, the Dome located him because of the sound he made when exhaling. Not from any of this incursion sensing tech. Predicting incursions is more external, and likely has more to do with the Dome's precognitive abilities. The same ones that Limbo is blocking.

Again, I see no evidence that you can counter Magik's cloaking magic. Even N'astrith, a limbo mage nowhere near as skilled or powerful as Magik, is able to hide from 616 Richard's machines:

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Your Prep:

Scenario A:

The Dome, the previously mentioned Children of Tomorrow are outside forming a barricade and charging into your characters, now they begin as Spider-Man level per the rules, but one of their main powers is adapting, their exoskeleton combined with their unique physiology makes them some kind of adaptoids.

  1. You haven't proven you'd have access to the Dome. The Dome being able to fly does not help you when the battlefield is not even in the same universe, much less the same planet.
  2. You have not proven that you can detect my team.
  3. They wouldn't have time to do anything as you have no counters to me immediately going on the offense by having Black skip straight from Limbo to directly attacking your team. Again, he could decapitate Mangog, and impale/depower Richard within a fraction of a fraction of a nano-second.
  4. You are not allowed to buff summons past the limits.
  5. If having summons amp themselves above the limits is allowed, then my demons would be perfectly capable of growing with your characters. Afterall, they are shapeshifters who can mimic the powers of others. They have done it to heroes as powerful as Silver Surfer and Thor:

Magik gets overwhelmed by sheer numbers either on the outside or inside The Dome

Magik is a teleporter. She can instantly appear wherever she wants, and she can even throw their own attacks back at them or simply teleport them away entirely.

and since we have already seen this fight play out, she would know to avoid getting overwhelmed.

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As soon as they start fighting, they´ll adapt, evolve and become powerful enough to face your characters, they even beat Ultimate Odin after adapting to him, now the only problem here is still Black and his speed but I´m pretty sure that if they could beat freaking Odin after adapting, they can do the same to Black.

lol and exactly how powerful is this "freaking Odin"? Because I can't recall this version of Odin performing a single decent feat. 616 verse =/= Ultimates. Just like with Ultimate Dormammu; Ultimate verse cosmics/mystics are more smoke and mirrors than anything.

Hell, even his wiki-page remarks at how lackluster Ultimate Odin's feats are:

At first, it was implied Odin had vast powers perhaps up to allowing him to alter reality such as creating a mortal identity for Thor. When finally revealed Odin seemed to have little overt power, but was shown to be capable of enchanting items with portions of his power. Such items can imbue others with power as long as he allowed it.

Furthermore, it's not like their physical attributes are going to jump to near skyfather levels either. Literally one page before your scan, Thor was able to kill them with a single hammer strike:

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It wasn't just Thor, either. If you look in the background, other Asgardians are able to hold their own to varying levels of success as well. They didn't tier jump between those 2 pages either, as Thor was able to fight his way out of there after they killed Odin.

Not only did he escape, but he also came back and fought alongside Loki:

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He survived the ordeal, and that was WITHOUT Mjolnir.

The power-gap between 616 Odin and Thor is MASSIVE. Odin is galaxy level, while Thor is star level at best (and that's with major high-balling). Even with that energy draining ability, I really don't see a skyfather level being going down to an enemy that even Thor is able to take out in single hits. 616 Odin likely would have just blasted them all at once, or even prevented them from draining him.

I can provide a counter for speedblitz, and it´s a simple one really, you´ll see in a minute.

You said that, but upon reading through the rest of your post; you never actually addressed it.

I mean, they countered magic with tech (depowering Odin), something the likes of 616 Tony, Pym, Reed and geniuses have failed multiple times.

Again, we have no reason to assume that this Odin is anywhere near as powerful as his 616 counterpart. In fact, if you recall the Dormammu scans I posed earlier; magic in the Ultimate verse may not even be real magic. At least not as it's defined in 616.

Reed said that magic is just "science we don't understand yet". Granted, Tony Stark has said similar things in 616, and it is technically true for all magic, as science is an all encompassing term that applies to anything that can be observed/studied. In this particular context however, it goes deeper than that, as Dormammu was revealed to be an ordinary human using a technological device for his powers (as proven by the fact that he needed the Human Torch as a power-source and reverted to his original human form when said device was destroyed).

Creation Blades:

After some thought, I realized that dealing directly with Black was too dificult, but also unnecessary since I can deal with him without any of my characters touching him, you may ask how, well it´s fairly simple to be honest, as soon as the fight starts, I teleport his creation blades out of his reach and into the center of the sun never to be found again, or I could simply teleport Black himself either to the N-Zone or to another planet.

Can you do this within the first fraction of a fraction of a nano-second? Because that's how long it would take Black to kill you.

Magik won´t get him out since she won´t know where exactly Black was sent since Reed can teleport him to the other side of the universe, to another multiverse/alternate universe or to a pocket dimension as well.

All of which are BFR. Which is banned.

None of it matters, because Magik can track people across dimensions (as shown earlier with Dani Moonstar entering Hel). She also sensed Douglas entering the wrong dimension:

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In fact, she can even track people who are trapped outside of existence:

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and having already seen this fight play out, she'd know where you are sending him or the sword ahead of time.

Not to mention she can prevent other people from teleporting. That includes a monster created by the Beyonder, as well as Dr. Strange himself:

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Nevada gun is also know as the BIG BANG GUN, which literally carries the power of a focused big bang from another universe which Reed condensed into a badass weapon.

lol you realize that Magik can just open a portal to send the missile back at you, right?

Her portals are large enough to move giant robots and even rip holes in the sky:

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In the second scan, you can see the size of the robots compared to a helicopter. In the second scan you can see one of said robots coming out of Magik's portal.

Sending bombs back at people is entirely in character for her to, as she does just that here with exploding clones:

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So yea... Congratulations, you nuked your own team. lmao

The other option is to use the gateway as well and simply unleash the World-Worm which is a planet destroying singularity used by The Maker

Again, I'd simply teleport it back at you. The planet is indestructible as per the OP, so we can teleport into an underground cavern and let the surface burn.

Come to think of it, I could pull this strategy on both Rachel and Black and they´re out the second this fight starts.

Aside from the fact that it would, quite literally, blow up your face; Black can still kill both of your team members within the first fraction of a nano-second.

Now another great aspect that I haven´t touched upon are Reed´s nano-cameras which he can teleport to Limbo and use them to spy everything your team does without them even knowing like he did in "ANAD New Avengers #1". Limbo´s ability of future-seeing won´t let them know about the microscopic cameras for a very simple reason, The Maker knows that Limbo can see the future, so all he has to do is shut his mouth and just do not speak about them during the battle, Magik can´t look for something that she doesn´t even know it´s there.

For one, we can see your prep so we'd know about it anyways. For two, you can't get to limbo.

Numerous scientists have tried and failed. That includes Dr. Doom who, not only a comparable prep-master (he stole the Beyonder's powers with prep. That's far better than anything you have shown for Reed), but is also an accomplished mage:

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The Maker will use his depowering gun on her, by the way, this depowered gun worked just fine on Iceman (who carries the X gene just as Illyana) and freaking Ultimate Phoenix Force, so Magik will certainly fall to it.

I don't know how powerful Ultimate Phoenix Force is, but given how lackluster Dormammu and Odin are this does not impress me.

Also, only Magik's teleportation abilities are tied to her X-gene. Not only can she replicate it via spells, but the sword itself also contains identical teleportation powers that others can utilize when holding.

Also, she can simply open a portal to redirect the laser or block it with her sword:

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Plus, you have no evidence that it would work through Eldritch armor anyways.

Scenario B:

those same blueprints were used by no-name AIM scientists and they actually re-created the cosmic cube in 48 hours.

First off, the scan does NOT say that they are able to re-create it in "48 hours". What it says is that they are "48 hours away" from completion. There is no mention of how long they had been working on the cube up until that point.

They are able to recreate the Cube using HIS blueprints. That means that they likely building the cube the exact same way that he would. There is no reason to assume he'd be able to build it any faster. Furthermore, 48 hours is almost 5 times the amount of time you have. Wait, you actually have LESS than 5 hours, as you have to wait for the unspecified amount of time it takes your AI to "scour the time-stream" and give you the results that would prompt you to begin building said cube. That's assuming you get said results at all, given that Limbo's involvement would block your view of said time-stream.

Perhaps Richard can build it faster than said scientists, but to assume he could cut it down to less than a 5th of the time it took them to build the device is purely speculative. You have no evidence to prove this, as you don't even know why it took 48 hours to build in the first place. Correction, you don't know why it took them 48 hours to build it, on top of the unspecified amount of time that they had been working on the device previously.

We can't just assume that because he's smarter he can build it faster. That's like assuming that because you are a better cook, you can make any dish near instantaneously. It doesn't work that way. Somethings are simply take time, like chemical reactions, reaching certain levels of heat/energy, and so on.

If you tried to take it away from my grasp, let me tell you that it is a useless tactic, as the cosmic cube responds solely to The Maker´s thoughts, it literally is just a shiny cube in your hands, a useless shiny cube, whereas Reed Richards controls its real power with his mind and makes any feature of the cube unaccesible to someone else.

We could simply teleport the Cube out of your hands (pretty much the reverse of this):

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Stealing it wouldn't be useless. We can simply toss it out of existence or into Limbo where your telepathic connection to it would break. Denying you the cube is an accomplishment, even if we can't use it ourselves.

Furthermore, the Creation Blades have already been successfully used against a character who wielded the powers of all of creation itself:

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And the above feat was performed by Majestic, who is slower than Black.

There's nothing stopping Black from simply blitzing both of your characters faster than they can react. Or destroying the cube itself with his sword. Remember, the creation blade was built with pieces of a UNIVERSE busting weapon. That trumps the cube by a LARGE margin.

Reality warping is not allowed in this tourney, well sadly for you, this cosmic cube is just as powerful but it´s science-based

The fact that it's science based and not reality warping proves that it is nowhere near as powerful as the real thing. As a general rule of thumb: Reality Warping > Magic > Science

  • Science must operate under the rules/mechanics of the universe the story takes place in.
  • Magic allows one to circumvent the rules/mechanics of the universe via loopholes.
  • Reality Warping grants one command over the rules/mechanics themselves.

Furthermore, since we are on the subject of ridiculously broken prep-strategies; if Magik deems it necessary to defeat said device, she can simply use prep to merge Limbo with the planet we are on:

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By drawing power from Limbo, Magik is able to manipulate the world on a FAR greater scale than ANY of your feats have shown. Your feats are planetary. Magik can depower armies and effect the entire universe:

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She was even able to fight evenly with Dormammu himself. A mystical entity who is VASTLY more powerful than what you have shown for the Ultimate version of the cube:

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Linking back to my comment about Magic > Science, even power cosmic and phoenix force have had trouble dealing with limbo magic from lesser demons:

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So yea, even throwing in a hail-mary like a knock-off cosmic cube would fail.

Summary:

  • You haven't proven that you can bring the Dome to the battlefield. You tried to argue you could use flight, but the battlefield is not part of the Ultimate-verse, and you have no proof you'd be able to fly it to the planet in the allotted time; even if it was.
  • You tried to argue that the Dome could see through time/space, despite me already showing that Limbo has counters to this.
  • You came in with all these OP prep strategies, but you haven't proven that you would have enough information or time to act on them.
  • Even if you did, my team can easily counter each of them. The explosives can be teleported back at you. The cosmic cube can be stripped from you, or overpowered by Magik (backed by Limbo). Most of your feats are against feat-less beings that you want us to just assume are as powerful with their 616 counterparts.
  • Again, my team can gleam everything we'd need to know to win this battle simply by watching the future play out from Limbo. We can see exactly what we need to do to win, and the battle itself likely would not last more than a nano-second.
  • Furthermore, you have no counters to even my most basic plan A strategy. Since you so rudely accused me of not having one, I'll give a brief rundown. I can simply have Black take the creation-blade and blitz you through the portals. This can be done within the first nano-second of the battle. Or it can be converted into a hit and run tactic, in which Black waits for the opportune times to strike. It can also be combined with several other strategies, such as teledismemberment, combing the planet with Limbo, dumping demons into the middle of your dome and having them reek havoc on your technology, manipulating the energies that power your machines, or animating the Dome itself and having it attack you.

I have proven that I have tons and tons of ways to kill you, and all you have done is try to skirt your way around actually proving counters for them. Taking down beings like Dormammu and Legion as well as simultaneously conquering every timeline at once >>>>>>>> destroying Asgard along with a feat-less alternate universe version of Odin.

Again, you have NO reaction feats proving you can prevent Black from blitzing you.

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#70 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos I am ready to go to voting, assuming @thor_parker82 is ready (I think he wants to check it over before deciding on whether or not he wants a 4th post).

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#71 Edited by Sawed_Off_It (13250 posts) - - Show Bio

I've read it all but will again. Good debate and both of you were impressive. If there is not to be a 4th post, I'll vote on this soon. If there is, I look forward to it. Fun reading.

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#72 Edited by Thor_Parker82 (16108 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto said:

@emperorthanos I am ready to go to voting, assuming @thor_parker82 is ready (I think he wants to check it over before deciding on whether or not he wants a 4th post).

Nice post, we can open for voting now, just want to point out something important......

If flight is not enough for you, The Maker can use his trademark teleporter or the gateway he uses for the Big Bang Gun and teleport The Dome to the battlefield.

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#74 Edited by DeathHero61 (18759 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: I'm already voting on something else, but tag me again tomorrow like maybe around noon or 1-ish.

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#75 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16108 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: I enjoyed this debate a lot, good luck.

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#76 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio

@thor_parker82: Yea, I enjoyed it a lot as well. It was about as challenging as my old CaV against Chimeroid, while also being far more lax. xD

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#77 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#78 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio
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#79 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#80 Posted by Sawed_Off_It (13250 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: lol when have you been in a heated CaV?

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#81 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: lol when have you been in a heated CaV?

I wouldn't call the Chimeroid one "heated". Just... Tedious.

Now the Gaslight CaV. THAT was heated.

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#83 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

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#84 Edited by Sawed_Off_It (13250 posts) - - Show Bio

Well this was close. Right up until the 3rd or 4th post and after having it tossed around in my head for a bit, the winner (though bith did a swell job representing each of their teams) the winner became alot clearer.

I've read the CaV twice and it seems like godmaster prep vs nanosecond + speed and Creation Blade.

I don't know much about any of the characters so I'm going off what you 2 both say in regards to them. Thor_Parker82 still hasn't, in my mind, adequately defended how he would deal with Black wielding a Creation Blade. His best response was to throw a detonation device in your face or buff his summons to a higher limit.

His prep and using "The City" as a means to see different outcomes was very vague in terms of all that he would see and prep for. When you include Basic Knowledge however, with 5 hrs prep, someone like Ultimate Reed Richards with access to such a tool should be capable of discovering more information with said Basic Knowledge he was rewarded in the first place.

Bluntly, what I'm saying is, even though he only begins with Basic Knowledge, there should be some feats somewhere that would allow him to make a case for his tech being able to take that basic knowledge and further enhance on it then offer him more info on the enemy. With how advanced his tech is, that should be elementary research with 5 hrs to spare but that won't be held against his argument. As that's more of personal intrigue on my part.

He seems to hype Mangog a bit, and I think Magik would be able to deal with him or at least take him out of the equation by herself for Black to utilize the main attack strategy in blitzing Richards with the blade. Which would easily cut through the globe.

His Children of Tomorrow can't be anything more than a distraction, if that. That would at least keep Rachel Gray busy while making it more challenging for Magik to deal with Mangog.

His feat of Reed being able to "see" someone who had been literally erased from reality was impressive and added points for TP82.

To be frank, I don't see what is stopping Black from using the Creation Blade to slice open the globe and attack him. Even with the prep and the many summons he will have as distractions. None of them are fast enough to really bother Black or Magik (based on what was shared)

His team isn't anywhere near fast enough and his prep, though very impressive, hasn't been backed up well enough with his own feats. I'm not well versed in the Ultimate universe so throwing out images of his teammates able to reconstruct a cosmic cube or able to defy Odin are bothersome to me. Are they near featless, or less than, compared to their 616 counterparts? I can't sit here and believe - just based on what was shared - that they are comparable in terms of power; I was still impressed with Thor_Parker's overall argument. What I did not like were the statements that began with, or similar to the following:

"Well now that I have proved so and so.." While proving very little, if anything, and completely ignoring a good bit of what Zets' called into question and claim that he never even gave a viable strategy. When he did in fact, introduce his methods for potential victory very early on.

I believe Thor_Parker and Zets gave us quite an entertaining CaV and props to both of them for a great debate. I've read a bit of Zetsumotos' debates and was very intrigued to read Thor_Parker's posts here as well ever since he impressed me in his CaV with Ivenger. No I didn't vote on that. I lurk but I don't comment much. :) At least in voting stages.

Winner for me - Zetsumoto.

The Limbo vs City argument kind of held their own weight but canceled each other out in that same regard. One is magic and can't be explained with perfect reasoning like the City's tech. However, giving someone like Richards access to the City with 5 hrs to prepare for a fight, is still just as dangerous.

Black with the Creation Blades and nano second speed, apparently, was just not well countered and the attempts to do so were met with swift and logical counters on Zets part.

Zets gets my vote because I honestly don't see this fight lasting longer than mere moments when everything is taken into account. Maybe 6 or 7 seconds? Just far too much going on with 1 guy capable of making everything on the battle field seem less than statues in terms of speed.

Again, great job to both of participants. It was a fun read.

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#85 Posted by Sawed_Off_It (13250 posts) - - Show Bio
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#86 Posted by Khael (15331 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmmmm, I think Limbo can easily counter the City based on what I've read

Also, that Creation Blade thing is so OP, the other team can't really counter it properly

Good argument by both sides but @zetsumoto wins based on my limited knowledge of these characters

Note that I knew nothing about all of these characters before I read their arguments.

Too short? Probably.

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#87 Posted by deactivated-5a794b61068b8 (7203 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll try to get to this one later today.

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#88 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio
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#89 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio
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#90 Edited by Sly_141 (3216 posts) - - Show Bio

Setting the precog debate aside for moment, but how would Reed and Mangog plus the City and all of that be able to counter Blacks speed?

Having read the Ultimate FF and the Ultimates by Hickman I'm fully aware of what the Maker could do if given the chance but in order for him to have a chance he would need the time to act given Blacks speed and Magiks ability to port him into battle. Neither Mangog or the Maker or any of the Children of Tomorrow could perceive Black and because of this none of them would have time to act against him. Even if Mangog and the Maker survive the first assault there really isn't anything showing that they would have time to strike before Black or even Magik closes in on them.This puts them on the defensive for as long Zets team wants and since they can't counteract there isn't a conceivable way to win. Perhaps if Reed were rendered undetectable he could do something but that doesn't seem to be the case here.I set the precog argument aside because just because there is a possible future where you win doesn't mean you can replicate those events especially given the magnitude of the task at hand.

And that's disregarding Rachel and Magik for the most part. For me, the Black and The Creation Blade thing needed to be addressed more so than Limbo and it seems that for the Maker/Mangog combo their options would have been to make themselves undetectable, or untouchable but other than that I don't see a conceivable way of winning aside from getting lucky.

With that said I'll give my vote to Zets but Thor Parker it was a phenomenal debate.

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#91 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio
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#93 Posted by DeathHero61 (18759 posts) - - Show Bio

@sly_141 said:

Setting the precog debate aside for moment, but how would Reed and Mangog plus the City and all of that be able to counter Blacks speed?

Having read the Ultimate FF and the Ultimates by Hickman I'm fully aware of what the Maker could do if given the chance but in order for him to have a chance he would need the time to act given Blacks speed and Magiks ability to port him into battle. Neither Mangog or the Maker or any of the Children of Tomorrow could perceive Black and because of this none of them would have time to act against him. Even if Mangog and the Maker survive the first assault there really isn't anything showing that they would have time to strike before Black or even Magik closes in on them.This puts them on the defensive for as long Zets team wants and since they can't counteract there isn't a conceivable way to win. Perhaps if Reed were rendered undetectable he could do something but that doesn't seem to be the case here.I set the precog argument aside because just because there is a possible future where you win doesn't mean you can replicate those events especially given the magnitude of the task at hand.

And that's disregarding Rachel and Magik for the most part. For me, the Black and The Creation Blade thing needed to be addressed more so than Limbo and it seems that for the Maker/Mangog combo their options would have been to make themselves undetectable, or untouchable but other than that I don't see a conceivable way of winning aside from getting lucky.

With that said I'll give my vote to Zets but Thor Parker it was a phenomenal debate.

I agree with this analysis.

This is one of those CAVs where speed truly kills no matter what you do. My vote goes to @zetsumoto his strategy was simple and to the point, and it was overall more impressive, its a very depressing prep strategy that most teams wouldn't really have appropriate counters to unless they had a character that was as fast if not faster than Black. I felt TP2's strategy was kind of vague and wasn't enough to actually help him take down his opponents this time around.

This tourney match inspired me to be less lazy with my choices.

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#94 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathhero61: Yay for cancer teams! Operation Black Magik FTW

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#95 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16108 posts) - - Show Bio
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#96 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31560 posts) - - Show Bio
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#97 Posted by SirFizzWhizz (37749 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor Parker wins. The whole argument of teleporting City away with Limbo is something never done by Magik ever and empty assumption. I also see little counter to prepping with every possible outcome, much less the teleport attacks to the face. I feel Ultimate Reed is way above the whole cast Zets is using, which he is, and Mangog is icing on the cake.

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#98 Posted by Kevd4wg (12695 posts) - - Show Bio

This was a really good debate but after rereading the post I have to agree with morleericks and vote for @zetsumoto. I think Zetsumoto did a good job showing that the maker's prep was near useless because of limbo's magical properties. I don't think Thorparker showed nearly enough to prove to me that Mangog was powerful enough to fight magik or black. I think Zetsumoto proved that Black was a hugely dangerous force that would tear apart thorparker's team and even if it wouldn't kill the maker or Mangog it would at least incapacitate them.

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#99 Posted by Vertigo- (17722 posts) - - Show Bio

@sly_141 said:

Setting the precog debate aside for moment, but how would Reed and Mangog plus the City and all of that be able to counter Blacks speed?

Having read the Ultimate FF and the Ultimates by Hickman I'm fully aware of what the Maker could do if given the chance but in order for him to have a chance he would need the time to act given Blacks speed and Magiks ability to port him into battle. Neither Mangog or the Maker or any of the Children of Tomorrow could perceive Black and because of this none of them would have time to act against him. Even if Mangog and the Maker survive the first assault there really isn't anything showing that they would have time to strike before Black or even Magik closes in on them.This puts them on the defensive for as long Zets team wants and since they can't counteract there isn't a conceivable way to win. Perhaps if Reed were rendered undetectable he could do something but that doesn't seem to be the case here.I set the precog argument aside because just because there is a possible future where you win doesn't mean you can replicate those events especially given the magnitude of the task at hand.

And that's disregarding Rachel and Magik for the most part. For me, the Black and The Creation Blade thing needed to be addressed more so than Limbo and it seems that for the Maker/Mangog combo their options would have been to make themselves undetectable, or untouchable but other than that I don't see a conceivable way of winning aside from getting lucky.

With that said I'll give my vote to Zets but Thor Parker it was a phenomenal debate.

I'm pretty much in agreement with this. While there were some plausible strategies for possibly dealing with Magik or Rachel once the battle had begun, Black + Creation blades was simply something I saw no concrete defence against on Thor Parkers side.

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#100 Posted by DeathHero61 (18759 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor Parker wins. The whole argument of teleporting City away with Limbo is something never done by Magik ever and empty assumption. I also see little counter to prepping with every possible outcome, much less the teleport attacks to the face. I feel Ultimate Reed is way above the whole cast Zets is using, which he is, and Mangog is icing on the cake.

Hmmm goes on rant about manga and it being cancer, but in his vote barely addresses the manga cancer in his vote quite clearly against the manga fan? Suspicious......