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#1 Edited by EmperorThanos- (16056 posts) - - Show Bio

2017 high tier PYP Round 3

@asgardianbrony

Characters

  • Worthy Thor (5)
  • Kratos (3)
  • Composite Twilight with alicorn amps (2)
  • Desak 2
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PERKS

  • Nightcrawler teleport (3) Desak
  • 2 Hours Prep At A College Science Lab 5
  • Adamantium weapons (2) Desak
  • extra points

Versus

@chimeroid

Characters

  • Cyborg Superman 7 (With Sinestro Rings)
  • Black Alice 3

Perks

  • Mind Resistance +6
  • Light Speed +7 Alice
  • Mind Link
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Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. No time manipulation.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Summons stronger than 616 spider-man.
  8. Summons are limited to 200
  9. Cloning is limited to 10

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote is unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet with no other people on it except for the fighters

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#2 Posted by Thor_Parker82 (16013 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#3 Posted by Vertigo- (17683 posts) - - Show Bio

Tag

Online
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#4 Posted by HigherPower (12196 posts) - - Show Bio
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#5 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid you gonna post first? i likely wont be able to post until the start of next month.

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#6 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid you gonna post first? i likely wont be able to post until the start of next month.

We'll work something out. ATM, i am superbusy, but i could potentially steal time these days to post an opener :D

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#7 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio
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#8 Posted by KrleAvenger (26265 posts) - - Show Bio

Does Hank have any rings?

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#9 Posted by EmperorThanos- (16056 posts) - - Show Bio

Does Hank have any rings?

Yeah he gets his sinestro rings. Thanks for reminding me.

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#10 Edited by KrleAvenger (26265 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: Cyborg Superman with several Qwardian Power Rings. Jesus...

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#11 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@krleavenger: that may sound impressive... but i have prep time!

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#12 Posted by deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f (6669 posts) - - Show Bio
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#13 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio
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#14 Posted by KrleAvenger (26265 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by deactivated-5a90ca82ccb5f (6669 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Edited by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio

If you are the voter during the voting and few personal thoughts of random person can change your mind - dont read this.

Well, hope that you have something in your sleeve. Most of things that Twilight can do during prep time will be useless here. And in battle she's far too outclassed in physicals to be even a good support.

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#17 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot: hey man please dont say things like that in this tourney, it could influence the voters.

i'll tell you some of my plan in our PM if you want, its pretty cool :D

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#18 Posted by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony: Lol who cares about what I'm thinking. You will prove that my thoughts are wrong and it will be ok. Btw I'll edit the post to not "influence the voters". And you can send me your plan

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#19 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Edited by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

GOD SQUAD

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Behold! the gods and their champions have come to do battle! let this tournament now be filled with the wrath of heaven and the sprinkling of blasphemous blood! (or not, we have a goddess of friendship participating after all)

GENERAL BIOS

these bios are just a glimpse at what my characters can do. instead of posting all their feats in the intro I will be using them throughout the debate.

Thor Odinson Bio

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"I hear the prayer from a universe away. Across the cosmos I bring with me the storm. I crack the ground 'til waters rush forth. I carve rivers where once was desert. I am Thor. Warrior of Asgard. Avenger of earth. And I swear by all that is holy... no one will die here today."

====================================================================

Thor is the son of Odin All-father and the elder goddess Gaea. Born to be the greatest god in existence Thor has lived up to his calling, saving midgard countless times as well as saving every pantheon in existence from annihilation. Thor is a gods god, his unmistakable battle cry of "For Asgard" starts the heart of all his foes trembling and the sound of his thunder is known on every world in the cosmos. Whether elder god, cosmic being, mortal villain or demon from hell, if you threaten the world he loves prepare for the last thing you ever see to be mighty mjolnir and for the last thing you taste to be cold uru.

Powers

  • Super strength (class 100+)
  • divine durability
  • superhuman reflexes
  • levitation-self
  • divine senses
  • divine weather manipulation
  • divine lightning manipulation
  • earth manipulation (limited)
  • energy absorption/manipulation (with mjolnir)
  • matter manipulation (with mjolnir)
  • MFTL flight (with mjolnir)
  • Magic blasts/anti-force
  • Life force/godblast

Striking Strength

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Here in this category Thor excels more than almost every character in his weight class.

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1. Thor oneshot KO's abomination with a haymaker. Thor #178

2. Thor accidentally oneshots namor in the rain. Invaders #33:

3. By simply calling mjolnir Thor oneshot kills Angrir. Angrir was the thing, amped by the power of the fear lord Cul. his power was vastly increased to levels where he could stomp red hulk no problem.

Divine Lightning

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Thor is not just a physical brawler, his lightning's are extremely potent and able to bring down enemies where physical smiting does not suffice.

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1. Thor uses a single lightning bolt to break the hold of Hercules and stun him. blood oath

2. Thor can summon down lightning for massive AOE attacks.

3. Thor fries BRB with a lightning bolt and KO's him. this is extremely impressive as BRB has planetary+ durability, has tanked hits from star level beings and is unaffected by the suns core. Silver Surfer vol. 3 #86

Durability (physical, energy, cutting)

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Thor is one of the most durable beings on his tier as well, in all categories.

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1. Thor doesnt even feel a strike from an enraged hulk.

2. Thor survives a scream from black bolt

3. Thor withstands many attacks from wolverines adamantium claws.

Speed

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Thor isn't the fastest character in his tier, but he most definitely isn't slow.

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1. thor fights in microseconds. Thor #144

2. Thor casually catches a tank shell fired at him, this is a microsecond feat.

3. Thor strikes heimdall at supersonic+ speed. Journey Into Mystery #125

Raw Strength

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Thor is also one of the strongest beings on marvel earth, almost as strong as the hulk himself.

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1. Thor stalemates savage hulk for an hour. Defenders #10

2. Thor wrenches apart and closes a million tons of earth. West Coast Avengers #55

3. Thor stalemates Hercules in arm wrestling.

Composite Kratos Bio

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"If all those on Olympus would deny me my vengeance, then all of Olympus will die."

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The sisters of fate could not control him, the hands of Hades could not restrain him, and on this day the man... the legend... Kratos, will win the 2017 PYP high tier semi-finals!

(reminder once again. the feats listed below are not the characters best, just general feats. more and better will be provided in the debate.)

Kratos different forms/modes/amps

  • God form (has all the powers of ares)
  • Power of hope (allowed him to kill ares and Zeus, also gives the ability to attack souls)
  • Rage of the titans/fire of Sparta (the ashes of Prometheus amped kratos immensely)
  • Rage of Sparta (a berserk rage that allowed mortal kratos to murder stomp Thanatos, the primordial god of death)
  • power of Apollo (was able to oneshot gyges)

STRENGTH

Tanks and repels a stomp from the colossus of Rhodes.

Kratos flips over an entire street smashing a giant monster into a building

Kratos pulls and impales a skyscraper sized sea monster.

DURABILITY

kratos drained of all his godly power survives being crushed by the hand of the colossus of rhodes

Kratos tanks the volcanic destruction of thera which sunk atlantis

SPEED

Kratos is able to tag and react to a time manipulating teleporter

Dodges a lightning strike (this was confirmed as an accurate depiction of Kratos’ abilities twice by word of god)

EQUIPMENT

Blades of Exile: A weapon similar to the Blades of Chaos and Athena's Blades from previous games. After the Blades of Athena become dulled when Kratos falls into the River Styx, Athena gives them to Kratos in order to regain his trust. Their magic power calls forth spears and shield of Kratos' exiled Spartan brothers, that protect him and damage his foes.

Claws of Hades: Kratos obtains this weapon from Hades during their fight. Their fighting style is similar to the Blades of Exile but the moves are executed slower. These weapons have the power to call forth damned souls.

Nemean Cestus: Powerful weapon originally wielded by Hercules. It is a chained fist weapon resembling lion heads.

Nemesis Whip: A weapon given to Kratos by Hephaestus after Kratos gives him the Omphalos stone. It is a pair of triple blades chained together. Hephestus has given it the power to project electricity.

Bow of Apollo: The first item that Kratos acquires in God of War III. He obtains it after killing Peirithous, the mortal lover of Persephone, who was imprisoned in the Underworld by Hades and condemned to spend all eternity trapped within a cage of brambles.

Head of Helios: The decapitated head of the Sun God is the second item obtained in God of War III. Kratos acquires this item after meeting with an injured Helios, and after a brief tussle of words, Kratos ruthlessly rips his head off his shoulders.

Boots of Hermes: The Boots of Hermes are depicted as greaves with burning red wings on them. Kratos mercilessly amputates them out of the legs of their owner; the messenger god Hermes.

Blade of Olympus: A divine sword so powerful that it allowed Zeus to defeat the Titans in the Great War. It is also one of the only known tools (along with Pandora's Box and the Gauntlet of Zeus) that has the power to harm and kill other Gods.

Spear of Destiny: A weapon originally used by the Dark Rider. With it, Kratos can perform deadly swipes and stabs, and can also fire dangerous piercing projectiles at enemies.

Barbarian Hammer: A slow but powerful melee weapon originally wielded by the Barbarian King. With it, Kratos can deliver powerful slams and smashes, and also summon legions of souls.

Scourge of Erinys: This artifact can unleash a power that no mortal nor god should wield.

Horn of Boreas: Horn that summons the power of the God of the North Wind, Boreas.

Thera's Bane: Thera's power can imbue the Blades of Athena with fire.

Blade of Artemis: This is a large, cumbersome blade given to Kratos by the goddess Artemis. It is quite slow, but also does more damage to enemies than the Blades of Chaos.

Gauntlet of Zeus: A powerful weapon used by Zeus to chain the Titans.

Golden Fleece: A golden armlet which Kratos can use to reflect attacks and projectiles back at their sender.

The Amulet of Uroborus: An item capable of manipulating time, used to heal or decay objects.

Eyes of Truth: Formerly the actual eyes of the Oracle Aletheia, the Eyes of Truth holds the power to destroy magic barriers, illusions, and dark spells.

Oath Stone of Orkos: Given to Kratos by Orkos, this item has the power to create a clone of its wielder.

Desak Sterixian Bio

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"Asgardian. The Designate. Reveal her whereabouts. Both of you are about to breathe your last."

====================================================================================

Desak is the ultimate god-slayer. His daughter sacrificed to the gods Desak became enraged and accepted the spirit of the jewel, gaining power equal to any god, power to wipe them from existence. Desak now prowls creation wiping out pantheons, for that is his purpose.

Explanation of powers

Desak's powers are perfectly made for fighting and killing Gods. Firstly, Desak scales to gods in every way as he is a being equal to the gods (AKA he will be equal to any god he fights). Secondly, Desak absorbs any god power used against him and becomes exponentially more powerful all around (while he initially scales to the level of a god, he can become far more powerful than them through absorption). Thirdly, Desak is completely immune to all god power (supernatural power) used against him, that includes all manner of hax as well as raw power.

Now, if you have any questions regarding Desak's powers i am happy to answer them, however if your going to try and argue they dont work as i say they do i wont have it. i already spent the entire last debate arguing how his abilities work, and i won, so there is no use in re-arguing something already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Perks

Nightcrawlers teleport (telefrag), Adamantium weapons.

Composite Twilight Sparkle Bio

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"I used to wonder what friendship could be, until you all shared its magic with me."

====================================================================================

Twilight Sparkle is the ascended princess of friendship. once but a mortal unicorn she was taken under the wing of Celestia and became a master of magic, however she could only ver reach her full potential if she learned the magic of friendship, thus celestia sent her to ponyville where she met her best friends and the rest is history.

SPEED

Twilight is at least supersonic as she is creating sonic booms

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A friend of mine calculated the lasers speed and said that Those laser beams travel with speed of ~300-340 m/s. And those ponies were able to react to them at distance of 30 feet. Also notice that this is not aim dodging, twilight reacts to these lasers while caught off guard and during a fight. I think ive shown twi definitely has amazing raw reaction speed, ill supply more scans if need be, but twi also loves to use teleportation in combat as well which makes her many times faster.

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Twi shows she can use Teleportation in combat to dodge lasers, and shows she has the ability to teleport instantly wherever she wants. In that second gif twi is teleporting all over the land of equestrian, crossing hundreds and thousands of miles instantly.

DESTRUCTIVE POWER

Twilight's go to attack is the magic beam/blast which she can spam over and over.

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The above feats were by normal twilight sparkle, the first one being before she even became an alicorn. an unamped blast from unicorn twilight was capable of totally disintegrating a wall and stunning queen chrysalis who has tanked being blasted across the country of equestria! Chrysalis has also shown superiority to Celestia by beating her in a beam battle, yet alicorn twi equals chrysalis in power. The above feats are pretty good, but they pale in comparison to the feats of Twilight amped by the princesses magic, which may be shown later.

DURABILITY

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  • 1: Twi tanks being bull rushed through a mountain.
  • 2: Twi no sells a beam from tirek.

No one can deny twi has mountain level durability AT THE LEAST.

INTELLIGENCE

was able to create an alternate dimension teleporter out of scraps and a magic tome.

ELEMENT OF MAGIC

Twi was born with the gift of magic and through hard work has ascended to a level of mystic might beyond most of her kind. She has to many spells to list and can also master a spell/type of magic after seeing it performed once.

Prep Time: Where the battle is won

in this CAV my prep is the difference that gives me a huge advantage over my opponent. while chime is stuck with his characters unable to amp themselves in any way my team will be amping and buffing until the gap is insurmountable.

Thor Amps himself with Belt of strength and gauntlets

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Thor can summon megingjord (belt of strength) and his gauntlets which amplify his strength. a couple of his feats with this gear is fighting the midgard serpent (a teambuster) and breaking the armour of Exitar the exterminator.

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But wait! those two feats were done before the Armour got enchanted again. that's right, in the second scan i posted above Odin infuses the gauntlets and belt with a portion of the odinforce itself. in Thor volume 2: 25 Odin enchants the armour further so Thor can fight and defeat Thanosi. Thanosi was actually being written as thanos originally, however later he got retconned by starlin to be a clone, but Thanosi should still be considered equal to thanos in power as he was written at that level and to back this up he was even able to intimidate the mangog. Along with Thanosi's already formidable might he had also gained several ancient artifacts that greatly enhanced him:

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With this newfound power Thanosi sent out a beam of destruction that casually destroyed a planet of 41 billion (far larger than earth) and the beam continued on to destroy all life in existence:

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So, Thor with his newly odinforce infused armour takes on a massively amped thanosi (just as powerful as thanos) who casually oneshot a large planet and could, perhaps, destroy all life in the universe. What happens next?:

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Thor and Thanosi fight and Thor beats him into submission! Thor tanks thanosi's attacks and pounds him into the ground leaving him lying in a crater like Loki at the end of avengers.

So, with his odinforce enhanced gear Thor is massively more powerful than usual, able to beat down on low skyfather level beings and tank their attacks. The prep has just begun, lets move on to Kratos.

Kratos summons an Army

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In this tournament Kratos is composite, which means he not only wields the claws of hades and has absorbed the soul of hades, but he is also a god himself. this version of kratos is far more powerful than anyone else in his games and thus can wield the powers of Hades to the fullest.

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Kratos will summon up an army of 200 spirit/gorgons which will act as nuisances against your team. These Gorgons unfortunately dont kill immediately with their stare, however they can fire instant petrification beams:

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These gorgons will simply act as a distraction and if i'm lucky one of your characters will get caught of guard and turned to stone. these gorgons are also incorporeal spirits, so i dont believe Cyborg supes will be able to hurt them.

Twilight amps my entire team big-league

Accelero + Similo Duplexus Spell

Twilight begins by amping herself and my entire team (thor, kratos, desak) with Accelero + Similo Duplexus, a spell that greatly enhances your speed and creates a clone with all your same attributes and super speed. How fast is this spell exactly? Well, starlight was able to pick up and organize every single book in twilight's library plus furniture and Twi has said that she has around 20,000 books in her library (which we can take as fact as twi is overly organized to the point of insanity and is a genius). It took Starlight around 5 seconds to organize 20,000 books plus other objects, this means accelero amps ones speed to the level where they can perform 4,000+ actions per second.

With the above spell not only will my team be legit speedsters, but they will also have super speedster clones. Tjhe prep is not yet finished though, Twi is a master of both science and sorcery, able to combine them to great effect.

Twi creates an alternate reality portal

Twilight can easily create an alternate reality portal out of scraps and an enchanted book. while she doesnt have the book in this instance Twi has shown the ability to perfectly replicate any magic she sees, thus as the prep takes place in a college lab twi will simply enchant a book or item with this spell then use scraps to construct the portal.

Twi creates a magic absorber

Sci-Twi, the alternate reality human version of twi, was able to create a device that absorbed equestrian magic and gave the user immense power. Human Twi was a scientist and hardly knew a thing about magic, pony Twi however is both a scientist and one of the greatest magic users in equestria, thus she could replicate this device with utter ease and make enough for my team (thor, desak, kratos) as all she would need is a few scraps lying around.

After making the magic absorbers Twi siphons Equestrian magic through the portal and amps herself as well as her teammates with its power. After absorption her teammates will transform into humanoid alicorns:

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Along with an amp to all their attributes my teammates will also gain new powerful abilities such as:

  • Energy projection
  • Flight
  • portal creation/reality tearing
  • Telekinesis
  • magical ability

Thus, my team is now far more powerful and versatile than before, able to use their abilities in greater ways. The amp from this magic absorption's exact power level is never explicitly shown though it does seem to give power on the level of alicorn princesses.

The Amping of Desak and his clone

now for the final prep, the amping of Desak Sterixian. As explained in his bio Desak innately amps to the level of gods, becoming their equal in every way. this ability has been shown in every single one of his comic appearances and has allowed him at one moment to fight equally with a half powered jake olson/thor and at another moment to solo entire pantheons.

Desak will innately scale/amp to the level of thor, kratos, twi and their clones combined in every way. For example he will have the strength of Odinforce infused armour thor and kratos doubled, he will have their durability doubled, he will have the TK of twilight (thanks to her giving everybody unicorn horns) but doubled, ect. With this amp Desak will be amped to skyfather level, wielding power twice as great as thanos level beings and telekinesis able to move entire solar systems (twi was able to move the sun and moon with TK).

Now you might think that's enough, but im gonna go into operation overkill. After all this, with Desak innately scaling to the combined power of my entire team and gaining new abilities from Twi my team will then hit Desak and his clone with their magic ability, amping him even further as Desak feeds on god power like a vampire:

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Desak has shown throughout his career that he absorbs/feeds on supernatural power and becomes far more powerful than before. usually he fights his opponents equally for a while then after they unleash their power on him he absorbs it and beats the crap out of them. Desak and his clone will not only scale to be as powerful as my whole team combined, but my team will also feed them god power for the rest of the prep time i have left, drastically increasing their power level.

Prep Summary

After prep my team now looks like this:

  • Army of 200 spirit gorgons
  • 2 composite Kratos (amped with alicorn powers and superspeed)
  • 2 Twilights (amped with more equestrian magic and superspeed)
  • 2 Thors (amped with odinforce infused belt and gauntlets, alicorn powers and superspeed)
  • 2 Desaks (amped with alicorn powers, each as powerful as entire team combined, superspeed)

Can my team accomplish this all in just 2 hours prep? Yes. most of the prep can be accomplished instantly with magic or simply happens innately (desak's amping), the rest can be accomplished in minutes thanks to Twi's genius intellect. Now, im betting you will try and argue i cant accomplish this prep, however the previous match-up round of this tourney was a long and extensive argument between me and arkbound abut how my characters powers work and if i could accomplish my prep, and i won based on the fact i showed all my characters powers and abilities work as i claim they do.

Strategy/Preemptive counters

You chose a really powerful and well balanced team, however i believe my team has both the power and the numbers to take you down fairly quickly. In this first post let me focus more on Alice, as my team is very magic oriented and i think you would likely try to claim she is the reason they go down.

Black Alice

This little girl was actually worrying me quite a bit when i found out i was matched up against you, however i think my team now can handle her pretty well as she isnt as all-powerful against magic users as i thought. Lets look at what you said about her in your past tourney match up with morleericks:

She has even shown the ability to steal the powers of two beings simultaneously.

For this fight, before getting any knowledge, she would do what she usually does before having time to think it through, acquire the powers of a brick type character. Either Shazam, Wonder Woman or Etrigan, and adjust the necessary powers according to the flow of the battle.

Your team is indeed completely safe from their powers being stolen by Alice as the perks grants you safety from it. BUT she has proven to be able to instantly gain powers of any of the listed characters which i clearly pointed out in my opener. She is a jack of all trades and can assume powers of Zatanna, Fate and the likes, but she is only worth 3 points because she is basically a discounted version of those having a lot less control over their powers, being able to only hold them temporarily but having knowledge on how to use them.

So, she at most can absorb the powers of two beings at the same time, she will start the fight by absorbing the powers of a DC character and she cant use the powers she absorbs nearly as effectively as the original owner of those powers could. good to know.

So since BA will be absorbing the powers of either etrigan, shazam or WW (you should specify) she will only then be able to absorb the powers of one of my characters if she tries to do so. Unfortunately for her she wont be able to absorb the powers of Desak as not only does he get his powers from a cosmic, not mystic being:

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But Desak's powers are also never described as magic, they are simply anti-god, anti-supernatural, basically anti-magic. Desak's power feeds on the divine, absorbs it and changes it into his own cosmic/anti-god energy, he is not a magical being and is thus immune to Black Alice absorption.

Also Twilight Sparkle is highly, if not fully, resistant to magical energy draining. Tirek was able to casually absorb the powers of Discord, the same discord who has casually reality warped on a solar system level and has never shown a limit to his abilities:

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Yet, even though tirek is powerful enough to do that, he couldnt absorb Twilight's powers. Tirek had to blackmail twi by threatening her friends and could only take her powers when twi purposely let him do so. I im not mistaken there was context behind the specter absorption feat for BA, something like she was able to absorb his power as he didnt have a human host, kind of like the phoenix in that he is vulnerable without a host. until feats are provided of BA absorbing the powers of a being as resistant to absorption as Twi is then we must assume she cant steal twi's magic, or at least she would really need to struggle to do so.

Now this just leaves Thor and Kratos to absorb. im not aware of any feats from them that would stop here from absorbing their powers, so i concede she could, however she can only absorb one or the others powers and even then she wont be powerful enough to take down Desak. In fact, Since she uses the power of supernatural/god creatures Desak would amp to her level as well and be immune to all her attacks, making her far easier to kill.

Also, will BA even steal any of my characters powers? why do that if she can just utilize the powers of DC heroes she has experience with?

The Strategy

Upon the fight beginning Desak and his clone will immediately head on over to Black alice as she is powered by gods/supernatural, ect which Desak hates and loves to kill. Both Black alice and Desak are superspeedsters thanks to perks or amps, however Desak also has nightcrawlers telefrag ability thanks to my perk:

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Desak is a brutal warrior and will have no qualms about teleporting her head or body parts off her body. Also, if this ability for some reason doesnt work Desak is also simply far, far more powerful than BA and can kill her with his energy projection or physical might. Anything BA throws at him will be useless as Desak is immune to the supernatural forces she calls upon and can simply grow more powerful from them. Desak can also use his solar system + level TK he got in prep to restrain or crush BA if she tries to run. in the end Desak and his clone kill her rather easily with telefraging, adamantium blades, energy projection, TK, ect, then they go back to help their teammates.

The Thors, Kratos, Twi and Gorgon army will all be ganging up on Cyborg Supes. Hank henshaw is a super powerful character, however there is no way he will be able to stand up to a beating from two odinforce empowered thor's amped with superspeed, energy projection and TK, let alone the rest of my team ganging up on him. Supes gets beaten in any number of ways, disintegration, TK, transmutation, soul rip, ect. if he isnt dead or incapped by the time the Desak's finish with BA he will be once they arrive and disintegrate him:

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Twi also has several ways to incapacitate your team and end the fight immediately, but i'll save those for the next post, right now im simply content to show off my massive advantage in numbers and raw power.

Summary of first Post

This is already a fun debate, i finally get to go all out with my characters and prep. My opponents team is a powerful and cleverly constructed team, built around two characters that could usually negate most teams; However, my team has prep, is more powerful, more versatile, has the numbers advantage and of course has the best plot device character in this tournament, Desak Sterixian. I built my team around each others strengths and im very happy i finally get to show off their full potential. i eagerly await my opponents post.

your up :) @chimeroid

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#21 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony: Have to admit, this is one of the best openers i have came up against, loving it already, i will have my reply up in a couple of days :D

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#22 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony:

The "Get-Countered" Team of 2017

Your suspicions were correct, your team does get hard countered by mine and i will explain why. But first, let's get the introductions out of the way:

Intros:

Cyborg Superman.

Life is an endless cycle of betrayal and murder and pain. I ended that hideous thing called life for so many

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Cyborg Superman is an evil counterpart to Superman with a robotic body designed using Kryptonian technology and genetics, meaning that he, by default has the physical stats and the other abilities of Superman (effectively, he became a clone of Kal-El) with added powers from his cybernetic parts and incredible technopathy. Blaming Superman for the death of his wife Terri Henshaw, he has sworn revenge and even impersonated him during Reign of the Supermen! He later went on to become the master of all Manhunters and one of the villains for the Guardians of Oa.

Powers:

Since you have obviously read my previous debates i will cut down on the feats department of my intro. Essentially, he acquired the genetic information of Kal El, and every body he makes for himself retains all of the powers of the original Superman thanks to that, his other power is complete control over technology which he uses to build the rest of his body. He is immortal as he can create new bodies from any piece of technology, and while his technopathy allows him to control Lantern rings (which he has 10 off for this battle) he is not quite imaginative with them. On top of that all he is the Grandmaster of the Manhunters and Warworld itself (which OFC, i will not use in combat as it would be too unfair).

Black Alice

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An angry Goth kid who has the keys to nigh omnipotence. That would be a nice way to describe her, however exaggerated it may be. Lori adopts the persona of Black Alice whenever she uses her power. And her power is the ability to usurp the power of any being whose powers come from magical or divine sources. For this tournament i donned her with a lightspeed perk to help her "equip" the powers of her enemies. Well, with a team so heavily based on magic, I can't help but feel bad for you since i have the ultimate Anti-Magic character.

Counters:

While i believe your post is indeed great, i did find a lot of flaws that i will point out here. And, since your post is quite large, this section will be too.

THOR:

While he is, without a doubt incredibly powerful, there are some showings that you chose that don't sit well with me. Firstly, in the durability department.

1. Thor doesnt even feel a strike from an enraged hulk.

This is out of context in many a way, Hulk was not enraged, in fact, Hulk was trying to reason with Thor, and secondly, Thor was in Warrior Madness. Regular people don't feel pain when they are in such a state of mind. Thor was simply to insane at the point to care about it.

2. Thor survives a scream from black bolt

What he survived was a mountain busting attack that was aimed at the symbiot. And Thor was on his knees after it.

Then, in the speed department, as you can suspect, his Speed will be one of the most contested parts of this debate. Now, i agree he is faster than humans, but not by a lot. Let's go into your scans:

1. thor fights in microseconds. Thor #144

Thor doesn't fight in microseconds, and he doesn't need reaction time to catch Mjolnir as Mjolnir only moves the way Thor wants it to. At best, Thor can land a single punch in a couple of microseconds, which is great, but not a constant for him. In fact, as we all know, his speed has always been portrayed as Street tier. (not counting Travel). He simply has too many showings that put his speed down for you to really debate him being a microsecond fighter.

2. Thor casually catches a tank shell fired at him, this is a microsecond feat.

No it is not. Average muzzle velocity for a tank cannon is 700 meters per second. A microsecond is one millionth part of a second this feat is done in one tenth of a second. You didn't only highball it, you made it out to be 100.000 times better than it actually is. In a microsecond a tank shell would go over 0.003 inches.

Desak

I do have a question. What happens if Desak is the strongest around when it comes to Divine powers? Does he also scale down to the strongest god around? Simply put, you can either make an NLF claim or not. If your claim, that stems from the scan of him receiving the Amulet (which seems like a glaring weakness) is that Desak is to be equal to gods, wouldn't that mean he simply cannot be stronger than Thor in this debate?

Twilight

I find it very interesting when someone uses a character that has a level of toonforce in a debate. However, your mountain busting durability feat is basically only a mountain top. Still a great feat. Just not quite there yet.

Countering your prep:

I have one very simple counter for your team's prep time - In character behavior. Your prep time is too complicated and something your characters don't actually do.

For Thor - Prime example is Thor using the armor you want to use. He summoned it rarely, if ever and only after the fight has gone south. Not to mention that the original armor was destroyed and later rebuild. IIRC, the rebuilt armor has very few showings and none that are more impressive than what Thor usually does. And the Belt of strength is pretty rare itself, Thor only used it a couple of times, and only once did he actually summon it for battle. Not to mention that Odin, in the scan which you describe as him adding powers to the belt and the gauntlets, said "Thy cooling handiwork" meaning that, that exact scan references the creation of these items. Also, Thanosi used special artefacts to create that blast, artifacts that don't give him any increase in durability, durability that is not backed up by feat. Basically, most that you can show is Thor beating a clone of Thanos and no feats to prove that Thanosi is as durable as Thanos. And, once more, it was not Thor's prep plan to use the belt of strength, but Odin's.

For Kratos - Is summoning 200 Gorgons in character for Kratos to do? I highly doubt it. While we are at it, has he ever summoned 200 beings at the same time? So, you need to prove both his willingness and capability to summon 200 gorgons prior to the beginning of the battle.

For Twilight - Could be an honest mistake, but i only saw someone else do that, so i will give you the benefit of the doubt and wait for Twilight to use those spells during prep time on others to prove that she can and is in character for her to do so. Now, i may be mistaken, but when she transformed in the video you have shown us, it seemed she became evil. Not at all someone who would amp her allies.This is why actual showings are important. You can't really dictate what they do since this is an in character battle. Also, if Twilight creates a massive machine, guess who gets to use his technopathy on it?

For Desak - Now, you said he scales to gods, not that he replicates their combined feats and abilities into himself. You having multiple gods doesn't sound at all relevant here. What would happen is simply Desak scaling to Thor as he is the strongest god to scale to in this battle. What you propose is not scaling, but rather copying of their combined energies, which i believe is crap. Also, as stated, nobody from your team has actual showings of doing what you propose in character. None of that would happen.

For prep summary - As i have said, you are long way away from proving almost any of your claims. You need to prove that Twilight can clone others (and herself), that she would do it, that she can use the absorber to amp others and that she would be willing to do that, that Desak can copy the abilities (and pick and choose from their best characteristics), in the end you need to prove that your team would indeed attack him in order to amp him.

Countering your strategy (Regarding BA):

Actually, you also simply don't know how powerful Alice is, so this part will be full of revelations for you :P

So, she at most can absorb the powers of two beings at the same time, she will start the fight by absorbing the powers of a DC character and she cant use the powers she absorbs nearly as effectively as the original owner of those powers could. good to know.

Actually, i have to admit, i was not going all out that is simply a nice scan i wanted to use, Alice is capable of using more than 2 powers at the same time, but that is not that relevant as she is also capable of instantly switching the power source, here. let me show you:

Just don't forget how fast Cheetah is
Just don't forget how fast Cheetah is

Also, the only reason i have been using the powers of DC characters is because she was facing characters she cannot drain, she drains random bricks when no enemies are there to be drained. However, if she is facing magical enemies, she will drain them and your team has both a magical based character and a divine brick.

But Desak's powers are also never described as magic, they are simply anti-god, anti-supernatural, basically anti-magic.

I might need a quote on that, they are anti-god, but anti-magic is a whole different thing that needs to be proven first. In fact, Desak's amulet is described as enchanted

Sounds magical to me
Sounds magical to me

Yet, even though tirek is powerful enough to do that, he couldnt absorb Twilight's powers. Tirek had to blackmail twi by threatening her friends and could only take her powers when twi purposely let him do so

What you conveniently decided to skip talking about was that Twilight was massively amped during that fight. Which made her essentially equally (or more) powerful in comparison, and thus, he was unable to drain her. Now, i know you get Alicorn Twilight, but i am not sure that you get the powers of other 4 Alicorns to use as well. Either way, i am not convinced that she became undrainable, but rather, simply stronger than he was, as he drained her just fine once she surrendered (thus proving that it is not the nature of the power that cannot be drained, but simply that she was too powerful to be drained by him. )

. I im not mistaken there was context behind the specter absorption feat for BA, something like she was able to absorb his power as he didnt have a human host, kind of like the phoenix in that he is vulnerable without a host. until feats are provided of BA absorbing the powers of a being as resistant to absorption as Twi is then we must assume she cant steal twi's magic, or at least she would really need to struggle to do so.

No, there was no real context that would influence the ability of Alice to drain her enemies, yes, Spectre was unbound, but he was not weak in any way, as he beat down pretty much everyone in that story arc. Until he faced Lori that is, she effortlessly curbed him, but didn't know how to destroy him once he lost form due to the fact that he is nothing without gods power.

Also, will BA even steal any of my characters powers? why do that if she can just utilize the powers of DC heroes she has experience with?

She will, she always does that, that is her power and her go to move. She beats magical opponents by stripping them of their powers. Yes she can use DC characters, but then she would have to fight, why not just drain her opponents and Leave Thor and Kratos mortal Men until they get blitzed by Hank, and then focusing on draining Twilight, which, in all honesty, she should be able to do.

Countering your Combat Strategy:

Time to go over the facts that stop this from working:

Upon the fight beginning Desak and his clone will immediately head on over to Black alice as she is powered by gods/supernatural, ect which Desak hates and loves to kill. Both Black alice and Desak are superspeedsters thanks to perks or amps, however Desak also has nightcrawlers telefrag ability thanks to my perk:

Black Alice got the Lightspeed perk, she will still be massively faster than Desak. And, while Desak has his power of teleportation, he doesn't automatically get all of Nightcrawlers feats that come with it. He only gets the ability to teleport, not the full range of skill NIghtcrawler has.

Desak is also simply far, far more powerful than BA and can kill her with his energy projection or physical might.

All the while Cyborg Superman, who is also faster and possibly stronger than Desak stands around doing nothing? Also, Lori herself, who would have access to the power of Thor, Kratos or Twilight combined with the lightspeed perk is not an easy fight in any a way. But then again, you did account for Hank in your post:

The Thors, Kratos, Twi and Gorgon army will all be ganging up on Cyborg Supes.

Except that, Thor will be powerless and thus easily killed by Hank. Kratos doesn't even need to be depowered to be quickly beat down by someone on Hank's level. Gorgon army is yet to be proven to be a fact, but Hank has an army of his own to face it, and it is not made out of living beings, but metal men, which should be immune to their gazes.

Now, for the offensive:

Not to seem mellow, it is time for my debating to go on the offensive. But not yet with my characters, after all, this is just an opener, however, i will bring up a massive issue with your team - Teamwork. You literally put two godslayers into a team with Thor. Teamwork is going to be a massive issue, especially since it was Thor who killed Desak after Desak tried his darnest to kill him back. You basically took Metallo and Superman and crammed them in a team. Sparks will be flying. Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if they battled each other before doing anything together. I mean Thor is the second most valued target for Desak he REALLY wants him dead. In all honesty, i don't think Kratos would work well with others either, but that is mere speculation. However, Desak and Thor fighting is a certainty. This battle will, in no way, stop Desak from attacking Thor as he is the most important target for Desak available.

How i feel the battle would go:

First of all, most of your prep plans is not supported by feats as of yet, i will need proof that Twilight can create clones of others, that she WOULD do so in character and that those clones retain all the powers of the originals. (or any other combat showing of those clones).

I will also need showings of Kratos summoning hundreds of creatures to fight for him.

My team still holds a solid speed edge and the abilities to counter your moves. The main threat remains Desak, but he can be managed by a sufficiently powerful opponent who is not a god - Cyborg Superman.

Unfortunately for you, you based your team on gods and magic users, Thor will literally be a non factor against Black Alice who can drain him of all of his powers, potentially, Twilight would be powerless as well and Cyborg Superman with 10 rings would deal a lot of fatalities in this fight.

One final counter for the road:

your up :) @chimeroid

*You're

With all this said, i believe it is a solid opener and i return the ball to your side of the court.

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#24 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio
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#25 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31472 posts) - - Show Bio

Black Alice seems like an interesting concept, but I am not a fan of the angry goth chick thing... =/

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#26 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@zetsumoto: when you read her stories you mostly feel really bad for her. She was basically just a regular poser who wanted some attention and everything went to shit. She even summoned the helmet of fate, but it tricked her by fulfilling her wishes in the worst ways possible. Generally, i believe the concept works in stories, but looks bad in these situations.

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#27 Edited by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

Post the Second

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Defense/Counters

I must say my opponents post was very good and i admit i made a couple mistakes, however my opponent has also made several false claims regarding my characters and strategy. Mistakes on both sides are to be expected as we are both using little known characters, so i'll be sure to clear up any mistakes as well as put forth the valid information needed to make this debate smoother and more informative.

Thor Bio Defense

This is out of context in many a way, Hulk was not enraged, in fact, Hulk was trying to reason with Thor, and secondly, Thor was in Warrior Madness. Regular people don't feel pain when they are in such a state of mind. Thor was simply to insane at the point to care about it.

Actually this fight is from Incredible Hulk #440 and in this fight Hulk is enraged, saying he will kill Thor:

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Yes at the very end Hulk notices the nuke and for a moment tries to reason with thor, however the fact is hulk had been enraged for a while up till this point and would not have suddenly decreased in strength, nor did he as we see he hit thor with a very powerful blow able to ragdoll him into the sky.

As for thor being in WM, yes he was, however WM does not amp ones durability, in fact is questionable if it really amps your strength or only gives you an adrenaline boost and a berserk rage. I used the feat to show Thor can tank blows from Hulk and other such beings on his level and the feat is absolutely valid in that regard.

Now, to show Thor is not only able to tank attacks from hulk level beings in warrior madness let us look at a couple of his other durability feats that even surpass the above shown.

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In Thor vol. 2 #17 Thor tanked a beatdown from 8th day juggernaut, a greatly amped version of the juggernaut. In the second scan you can see that normally Juggernaut's strikes can create earthquakes and in the words of Thor 8th day Juggernaut's power had increased "100 fold". Yes this exact number is hyperbole, but we know Juggernaut normally is a hulk level being and 8th day juggernaut is very clearly on a higher tier, yet thor tanked a beatdown from him, got right back up and kept fighting more ferociously than before.

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In Thor vol. 2 #24 Thor fights the mangog and is subjected to an absolutely savage beat down, the recorder even says "Mangog's savage ferocity exceeds anything i believed possible. With a hail of blows to fast for even my instruments to tally." The mangog is a dangerous teambuster level threat that has soloed the armies of asgard and even gone toe to toe with the All-father himself! After this beating thor is stunned and harmed, however he isnt KOed and gets up right afterward ready to fight again.

So, Thor is consistently able to tank strikes from hulk level foes and above, he has also withstood a beat down from a teambuster level threat in the mangog and hasnt been taken down. Also, the above feats were all accomplished by base thor, as shown in my last post Thor in this fight will be amped by his odinforce infused gear which allowed him to physically overwhelm a being equal with thanos.

What he survived was a mountain busting attack that was aimed at the symbiot. And Thor was on his knees after it.

This was not necessarily just a mountain busting attack. the narration says BB's voice can literally shatter mountains, however this is not its limit.

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Black Bolt's scream has been able to easily KO an alternate reality Terrax and while trying his best not to cause any damage with his voice Black bolt causes volcanoes to go off across the world and shakes a continent. So, as you can see Thor not being KOed by a scream from black bolt is an extremely impressive feat.

Then, in the speed department, as you can suspect, his Speed will be one of the most contested parts of this debate. Now, i agree he is faster than humans, but not by a lot.

Well, one of the reasons i have twilight sparkle on my team is to amp thor's reflexes. in my last post i showed her accelero spell amps ones speed to the level where they can strike around 4,000 times per second, so with Twi amping my team thor is a legit speedster.

Thor doesn't fight in microseconds, and he doesn't need reaction time to catch Mjolnir as Mjolnir only moves the way Thor wants it to. At best, Thor can land a single punch in a couple of microseconds, which is great, but not a constant for him.

I could list a dozen + feats of thor fighting and reacting in microseconds or faster, however if i did that you would just post all his low showings and as usual nobodies mind would be changed. As ive noticed in both my own and in reading other debates involving thor, if you even try to argue thor is fast people will automatically downgrade you for doing so even if you make a compelling case.

So, i will not let this argument turn into a thor is fast/slow argument but i will show a few feats and explain how i view thor's speed. Thor is not someone who does flurries of punches, thor uses his speed in bursts as shown in these scans:

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In the above scans Thor jumps a point blank tank blast, reacts to a speed blitzing Iron man and swats away three laser blasts in one swing. notice in all three feats Thor shows his speed in a burst, he accomplishes one powerful and swift movement. i personally think that thor can show great speed in single quick bursts, this is shown throughout his career.

The above three feats, plus those shown in his bio show Thor is not slow, he can attack and react within microseconds.

No it is not. Average muzzle velocity for a tank cannon is 700 meters per second. A microsecond is one millionth part of a second this feat is done in one tenth of a second. You didn't only highball it, you made it out to be 100.000 times better than it actually is. In a microsecond a tank shell would go over 0.003 inches.

my bad, i saw it calced as a microsecond feat on the forums.

Desak Bio Defense

I do have a question. What happens if Desak is the strongest around when it comes to Divine powers? Does he also scale down to the strongest god around? Simply put, you can either make an NLF claim or not. If your claim, that stems from the scan of him receiving the Amulet (which seems like a glaring weakness) is that Desak is to be equal to gods, wouldn't that mean he simply cannot be stronger than Thor in this debate?

No, Desak's ability allows him to become as powerful as the god's he is fighting, therefore if he is fighting a team of gods he will scale to all of them to beat them. This is how he is able to kill off entire pantheons (such as his home pantheon of Kronnit), if he only scaled to the strongest god around he would get murdered by the combined might of all the others, Desak scales to all gods present combined. This can be seen in his fight with Pensu, Tae, Thor, Herc and BRB where he took them all on at the same time and all of them had differing levels of power yet none were powerful enough to solo all the others, thus proving he scaled to all of them combined.

You also forgot something, the fact that Desak also absorbs any god power used on him. As i said and showed in my last post, during prep my team will blast Desak with their combined might increasing his power exponentially.

and once again, i spent the entire last debate arguing how desak's powers work (literally, the entire debate) so here is a link to that thread: Last round.

Defense of my Prep

There are actually a lot of wrong assumptions or misunderstandings in this part of my opponents post, some even stated by him as facts when they are anything but. let us break them down.

In Character behavior/Ability to accomplish prep

I have one very simple counter for your team's prep time - In character behavior. Your prep time is too complicated and something your characters don't actually do.

actually its mostly very simple and can be done instantly with spells. also, prep time feats cant really be judged on the frequency of their use as even when using prep master characters they hardly ever replicate the feat again, prep is basically just puling plot devices out of your butt. Taking an example from your last debate, thanos has created galactus killing bombs only one time right? And yet it was considered a valid feat for prep. If a character has accomplished something in prep even one time, and there is no context around it such as a need of a specific item, and if the character can accomplish this in the appropriate amount of time, then it is a valid feat.

For Thor - Prime example is Thor using the armor you want to use. He summoned it rarely, if ever and only after the fight has gone south.

Actually thor has summoned his armour in preparation of fights not just when a fight goes south, this is true of both his fight with exitar and jormungand. actually i cant recall a time where thor called his armour to him mid fight, he only does it when he has time to prepare, so you are very wrong on this point.

Also, summoning his armour is all the prep thor does, he isnt a prep genius like doctor doom and 99% of the time never has any prep time. Thor has summoned his armour on several occasions making this a valid option as prep feats for other characters that only happen once or twice are still valid in debate, such as the thanos feat i brought up above.

IIRC, the rebuilt armor has very few showings and none that are more impressive than what Thor usually does.

indeed, the rebuilt armour has the one showing vs thanosi as that was its last appearance... and your point is? It was shown to amp thor to the level of thanos or above, thats definitely more impressive than what base thor can do.

And the Belt of strength is pretty rare itself, Thor only used it a couple of times, and only once did he actually summon it for battle

Yes, so what? The fact is Thor can summon his armour in prep. Thor isnt just going to sit and suck his thumb for 2 hours, he is going to do what he can and that is summon his armour.

Not to mention that Odin, in the scan which you describe as him adding powers to the belt and the gauntlets, said "Thy cooling handiwork" meaning that, that exact scan references the creation of these items.

Actually it does not reference their creation, only their remaking. In Thor volume 2:25 Odin has commissioned Jagrfelm to refashion thor's armour for his battle with thanos, Odin then imbues them with a fraction of his power and sends them by the hand of fire lord to thor. Thor volume 2:25 takes place long, long after the belt and gauntlets were created, i advise you to read the comic so we can do away with these arguments over ignorance of context.

Also, Thanosi used special artefacts to create that blast, artifacts that don't give him any increase in durability, durability that is not backed up by feat. Basically, most that you can show is Thor beating a clone of Thanos and no feats to prove that Thanosi is as durable as Thanos.

Yes, the clone was as durable as thanos because it was Thanos. when the comic was first written Thanosi was the true Thanos, he was called thanos throughout the arc and was not a clone. Starlin later returned and retconned him into a clone HOWEVER his portrayal and power level was not retconned.

And, once more, it was not Thor's prep plan to use the belt of strength, but Odin's.

But thor has summoned his belt and gauntlets when prepping for the celestials, thus it is a valid feat to use in prep.

For Kratos - Is summoning 200 Gorgons in character for Kratos to do? I highly doubt it. While we are at it, has he ever summoned 200 beings at the same time? So, you need to prove both his willingness and capability to summon 200 gorgons prior to the beginning of the battle

Firstly let me address Kratos ability to summon the gorgons. As i made clear in his bio, this version of kratos was never seen in the god of war games as he is fully composite. in his composite form Kratos is in god form, has the power of hope, the power of the titans, the power of olympus, the power of Apollo, hades absorbed soul and the claws of hades; this version of kratos dwarfs in power any being we have seen in the GOW franchise and as he is a god he can wield the powers of the gods he has stolen to full effect. So, with that said what your really asking is whether gods, more specifically hades, can summon 200 gorgons, and the answer is definitely yes. Hades had power over the entire underworld and every soul in it, when he died all the souls of the dead were loosed to roam the lands of the living. Kratos in composite form can utilize hades full power to the fullest, thus he can easily summon 200 gorgons.

Now, as for your question of if it is in character for kratos to summon them, yes i think it is but it is also an invalid question. Kratos didnt have prep during his games nor did he have the power of his composite form. If we look at how other gods acted we see that most all the major deities including kratos fellow war god ares summon hordes of creatures to fight around them and for them. So, kratos has the capability to summon the gorgons and it would be in character for him to do so.

For Twilight - Could be an honest mistake, but i only saw someone else do that, so i will give you the benefit of the doubt and wait for Twilight to use those spells during prep time on others to prove that she can and is in character for her to do so.

once again, you cant judge prep feats by their consistency. as i stated earlier, even prep masters hardly ever replicate the same feat twice. Now, can twi replicate these feats? yes, Twi as the element of magic has the ability to perfectly copy a type of magic after seeing it done only once.

Celestia shows Twi dark magic

Celestia showed twilight dark magic only once, for a moment, in fact it was only a single minor dark magic spell. After seeing dark magic performed one time Twi is then able to do this.

Twi uses dark magic to open Sombra's enchantment

Why is this so impressive you ask? Well, Sombra is an extremely powerful dark lord who was shown equal to luna and celestia combined, he was even able to reality warp an entire kingdom off the map, disappearing the crystal empire for millenia. Twi, after seeing dark magic performed only once, was able to overcome the enchantment of the dark lord himself. Also, at this time Twi was still just a unicorn, infinitely inferior compared to her composite version.

So, Twi can replicate any magic she sees, in fact she can nigh master an entire style of magic after seeing only one spell of its kind performed a single time. Glimmer showed twi accelero + similo duplexus and explained how they worked, thus Twi will be able to use them.

Now, as for your question as to whether Twi would use this spell, yes she would. Twi has used Accelero before in combat (this is before she learned acelero + similo duplexus):

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Also, Twi is overly prepared to the point of insanity. If she knows something is about to happen she will try to prepare in any way possible, trying to account for any and all eventualities. She would amp herself and her teammates as much as she could before the time ran out and would be spazzed out thinking she hadn't done enough XD

Now, i may be mistaken, but when she transformed in the video you have shown us, it seemed she became evil. Not at all someone who would amp her allies.

As i said in my last post, that was an alternate reality twi. Sci-Twi was bullied, insecure and obsessed with gaining magic which is why she got turned evil, sunset shimmer was actually turned into an angelic figure after absorbing the magic:

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Twi is the princess of friendship and is also a master of magic, she can perform this prep just fine.

For Desak - Now, you said he scales to gods, not that he replicates their combined feats and abilities into himself.

Indeed, thats exactly right, he does not gain any new abilities, his existing abilities and attributes are amped.

You having multiple gods doesn't sound at all relevant here. What would happen is simply Desak scaling to Thor as he is the strongest god to scale to in this battle.

already discussed and shown to be false when he killed pensu and Tae, which would only be possible if he could scale to the level of both of them combined. Desak will scale to my entire team, his existing attributes and powers becoming as powerful as my entire team combined.

What you propose is not scaling, but rather copying of their combined energies, which i believe is crap.

He can do both and has done so throughout his career. As shown in my last post, Desak absorbs god energy:

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Also, as stated, nobody from your team has actual showings of doing what you propose in character. None of that would happen.

And as i explained, everyone can and will do the prep i have assigned them. also, desak's scaling isn't something he "does", its an innate ability.

You need to prove that Twilight can clone others (and herself), that she would do it, that she can use the absorber to amp others and that she would be willing to do that,

This has been proven. Twi can do all these things and will do them, its totally in character for her to try to prepare for everything.

that Desak can copy the abilities (and pick and choose from their best characteristics)

i never said this. Desak scales and amps the attributes/powers he already has. i only have him gaining new abilities when twi uses the magic absorbers to transform the team, otherwise he simply amps his already existing powers.

in the end you need to prove that your team would indeed attack him in order to amp him.

thats easy. Twi, as an expert on friendship (she is the princess of friendship after all) would make sure to find out her teammates strengths, weaknesses, powers, ect. Thor already knows Desak feeds on god power, twi can simply find out from him or desak himself, then she will simply get them all to amp him. this shouldn't be hard, her entire job is solving friendship problems.

Defense of my Combat Strategy

Actually, i have to admit, i was not going all out that is simply a nice scan i wanted to use, Alice is capable of using more than 2 powers at the same time, but that is not that relevant as she is also capable of instantly switching the power source, here. let me show you:

Also, the only reason i have been using the powers of DC characters is because she was facing characters she cannot drain, she drains random bricks when no enemies are there to be drained. However, if she is facing magical enemies, she will drain them and your team has both a magical based character and a divine brick.

So, you were holding out before. Well that makes her more dangerous, but she will still only be able to drain Kratos or Thor (possibly twi) and not Desak, who will have already amped to the level of my entire team.

Also, as i mentioned last post, if BA absorbs the power of my team or other supernatural characters Desak will scale and grow more powerful from her as well. Desak will also be totally immune o any and all of her powers, thus making her utterly useless in battle against him.

I might need a quote on that, they are anti-god, but anti-magic is a whole different thing that needs to be proven first. In fact, Desak's amulet is described as enchanted

Well, Desaks powers are anti-magic in that he is immune and the antithesis of all god power, and most magic comes from gods, for instance in marvel sorcerers like Doctor Strange mostly rely on the power of elder gods (cyttorak, vishanti, shuma gorath, octessence, Chthon, ect) and in DC if im not mistaken all magic comes from the divine Godwave. Now, im not saying Desak is anti-magic like aquaman's waterhand, im simply saying there is no way BA can absorb his powers.

Also, as i showed last post, the Designates powers are cosmic not magic.

What you conveniently decided to skip talking about was that Twilight was massively amped during that fight. Which made her essentially equally (or more) powerful in comparison, and thus, he was unable to drain her. Now, i know you get Alicorn Twilight, but i am not sure that you get the powers of other 4 Alicorns to use as well. Either way, i am not convinced that she became undrainable, but rather, simply stronger than he was, as he drained her just fine once she surrendered (thus proving that it is not the nature of the power that cannot be drained, but simply that she was too powerful to be drained by him. )

Actually i do get Twi in her massively amped form, i explained this in my last debate. Thats why it says Composite Twi with alicorn amps.

As for your argument Tirek could not drain her as she was more powerful/equal to him, well that directly contradicts his earlier showings. Tirek, after only draining some of equestria's mortal population (still far weaker than an alicorn princess) burst into Canterlot and was going to easily drain the Alicorn goddesses Celestia, Luna and Cadence. The princesses were so scared they gave away their magic to twi and had her flee before tirek could arrive. if tirek couldn't drain magic users more powerful than himself the princesses wouldn't have needed to worry.

and then, of course, we have Tirek (who had only drained equestria's mortal population) casually draining the much more powerful chaos god Discord:

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Discord at this time >>> Tirek, yet he was casually drained of all power.

This shows that Twi is highly resistant if not utterly immune to draining as Tirek was shown able to drain beings far more powerful than himself, yet he couldnt drain Twi.

No, there was no real context that would influence the ability of Alice to drain her enemies, yes, Spectre was unbound, but he was not weak in any way, as he beat down pretty much everyone in that story arc. Until he faced Lori that is, she effortlessly curbed him, but didn't know how to destroy him once he lost form due to the fact that he is nothing without gods power

alright. i don't own the comic so i'll take your word on it for now.

She will, she always does that, that is her power and her go to move. She beats magical opponents by stripping them of their powers. Yes she can use DC characters, but then she would have to fight, why not just drain her opponents and Leave Thor and Kratos mortal Men until they get blitzed by Hank, and then focusing on draining Twilight, which, in all honesty, she should be able to do.

Alright, i agree she will drain thor and Kratos if she gets the chance, IF she gets the chance seeing as she will be being attacked by two speedster teleporting Desak's.

Also, i very much doubt she can drain Twi as she is casually impervious to an insanely powerful magic absorber like Tirek.

Black Alice got the Lightspeed perk, she will still be massively faster than Desak. And, while Desak has his power of teleportation, he doesn't automatically get all of Nightcrawlers feats that come with it. He only gets the ability to teleport, not the full range of skill NIghtcrawler has.

Massively faster? No, with Twi's accelero amp Desak can attack 4,000+ times per second and while the exact movement speed hasn't quite been calced yet you can bet it is extremely fast based on that. Also, Desak is not slow without the amp as he has shown the ability to fly from the moon to earth at superspeed and fly faster than jake olson/thor:

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While thor's combat speed is suspect no one can deny his insane flight speed, thus Desak easily overtaking and blitzing him mid flight is a great feat of speed. With Twi's amp added on to his already immense flight speed Desak could quite easily bullrush BA and take her head off.

Along with the above Desak can teleport across universes and dimensions instantaneously, this is how he traverses the divine realms.

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So, Desak has reflexes/combat speed on par with superman, FTL flight/bullrushing speed and instantaneous teleportation which he can now use to telefrag thanks to my nightcrawler perk. Desak will easily be able to tag BA and kill her, whether by telefragging, bull rushing or in combat.

I also dont think telefragging is some super hard to learn skill, nightcrawler simply doesnt do it because of his morals. Desak doesnt have nightcrawlers morals, thus he will use it, simple as that.

All the while Cyborg Superman, who is also faster and possibly stronger than Desak stands around doing nothing?

Actually he will be engaged by twi, thor, kratos, their clones and the 200 spirit gorgons. also, Desak after scaling and amping will dwarf Cyborg supes in power and as shown above the speed will be comparable, plus desak has the teleporting advantage.

Also, Lori herself, who would have access to the power of Thor, Kratos or Twilight combined with the lightspeed perk is not an easy fight in any a way.

actually going by the scan of her stealing cheetah's power that you provided, her magic steal is not instantaneous and takes a small amount of time to activate. This begs some questions such as, can BA steal thor and kratos powers before Desak and his clone bullrush her head clean off? Will BA be able to concentrate and steal anyone powers while fleeing from two FTL instantaneous teleporting Desaks? If she happens to steal thor or kratos powers she will still get oneshot by a bullrush from desak and his adamantium blades as after prep he will have amped to a level far beyond thor and kratos combined, however i doubt she will even be able to steal their powers at all while running for her life.

Except that, Thor will be powerless and thus easily killed by Hank. Kratos doesn't even need to be depowered to be quickly beat down by someone on Hank's level.

As discussed above it is highly unlikely BA will be able to drain anyone as she will either be running from the Desak's or wil already be decapitated by a bullrush or telefrag from them. If BA is unsuccessful in her draining then my two Odinforce empowered Thor's will put a righteous beatdown on cyborg's metal behind even worse than the one given to thanosi.

As for Kratos (and his clone), while i agree he is not on the level of a herald like cyborg supes he can still hold his own and be an asset to my team. Kratos is a legit high-mid tier to high tier level character, able to casually oneshot kill mid-tiers like the titan perses:

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Kratos has also tanked a lightning bolt from Zeus that wrecked Gaea (one of the most powerful titans) and the subsequent fall to the underworld:

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Now, to understand how impressive this is lets look at how much power a lesser god of olympus has, in this case Apollo. Kratos channeled the power of Apollo into a blast capable of killing the Gyges, a living island!

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So as you can see, even lesser GOW gods pack mid tier level power, Zeus is by far the most powerful god in the series dwarfing all his other brethren in power. Tanking an attack from zeus is an extremely impressive feat.

Also, the above feats were performed by GOW3 kratos who didn't have his god form or powers and was thus weaker than the composite kratos i am using in this tourney. Anything kratos has done in the series can be replicated to a far greater degree by composite kratos. So while kratos isnt a herald tier character he can still contribute to this fight even in raw power, i will get into his hax later.

Gorgon army is yet to be proven to be a fact, but Hank has an army of his own to face it, and it is not made out of living beings, but metal men, which should be immune to their gazes.

i proved the gorgon army above. im interested in these metal men though, you dont seem to mention them anywhere else in your post.

Counters to the offensive/how my opponent feels the battle will go

Not to seem mellow, it is time for my debating to go on the offensive. But not yet with my characters, after all, this is just an opener, however, i will bring up a massive issue with your team - Teamwork. You literally put two godslayers into a team with Thor. Teamwork is going to be a massive issue, especially since it was Thor who killed Desak after Desak tried his darnest to kill him back. You basically took Metallo and Superman and crammed them in a team. Sparks will be flying. Hell, i wouldn't be surprised if they battled each other before doing anything together. I mean Thor is the second most valued target for Desak he REALLY wants him dead. In all honesty, i don't think Kratos would work well with others either, but that is mere speculation. However, Desak and Thor fighting is a certainty. This battle will, in no way, stop Desak from attacking Thor as he is the most important target for Desak available.

Context is key my man, Desak will have no quarrel with Thor in this tourney, let me explain. During the events leading up to the reigning the designate sent Desak to kill Thor as at this time the god of thunder was losing his humanity and the designate saw the evil he would bring. Desak was thus led to kill thor to stop the great evil he foresaw would happen in the future. So, does this mean Desak will still want to kill Thor? No. Thor's soul has since been healed and he has reconciled with the designate in Thor volume 2: 79, so the designate will not be leading Desak to hunt thor, in fact it will likely cause him to help thor in this situation. Before the events of the reigning Desak had some trust in thor:

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In this situation Desak will work with thor. they may not be friends (though twi could get them to be :D) but they will still work together and the designate (tarene) who guides Desak and has reconciled with Thor will not let her pawn go rogue.

As for Kratos, at the end of GOW3 he "repented" of his sins and is no longer totally controlled by rage and hate. Kratos worked with gods for most of his life, he has no quarrel with Thor and thus will work with him just fine as well.

First of all, most of your prep plans is not supported by feats as of yet, i will need proof that Twilight can create clones of others, that she WOULD do so in character and that those clones retain all the powers of the originals. (or any other combat showing of those clones).

Ive proven all my prep plans are doable and in character. as for Twi's clones having all her abilities, in season 3 episiode 3 "too many pinkie pies" we see cloning magic for the first time as Pinkie enters the enchanted pool and creates hundreds of clones of herself, all of which retain her toonforce abilities and act almost exactly like her.

Furthermore, the evidence would show that similo duplexus creates clones exactly like the original, in fact the spell was described by starlight as "being in two places at once", showing the clones are the same as the original.

I will also need showings of Kratos summoning hundreds of creatures to fight for him.

discussed earlier.

My team still holds a solid speed edge and the abilities to counter your moves. The main threat remains Desak, but he can be managed by a sufficiently powerful opponent who is not a god - Cyborg Superman.

Actually you do not hold the speed edge. Desak with his amps has FTL travel/bullrushing speed, superman level combat speed and instantaneous teleportation, the rest of my team also has superman level combat speed and thor has FTL bull rushing speed. Twi is also extremely fast, as shown in her bio she has instantaneous teleportation and also she has all the power of her fellow alicorns, one of which was able to travel from the moon to equestria with superspeed:

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Twi will also add on to this raw speed with similo + accelero duplexus, making herself far faster. Your team does not hold the speed advantage, at the least it is even thanks to my teams speed plus teleportation.

Cyborg supes is not as powerful as Desak at all. As explained in my intro, after prep Desak equals my entire amped team in power and through twi's prep has telekinesis twice as powerful as her own. How powerful is Twi's TK? It has moved the sun and moon at superspeed!

Twi moving sun and moon

So, Desak has multi-solar system TK, double the strength and durability of OF empowered thor, superspeed, ect. Desak will murderstomp CS if they fight.

Unfortunately for you, you based your team on gods and magic users, Thor will literally be a non factor against Black Alice who can drain him of all of his powers, potentially, Twilight would be powerless as well and Cyborg Superman with 10 rings would deal a lot of fatalities in this fight.

Actually, going by what has been shown so far, BA will get blindside beheaded by Desak and his clone before she can drain anyone, or she will be to busy running from the desaks to steal my teammates powers in which case she still dies. Even if she drained thor and kratos (as explained before she likely cant drain twi) she still wont even be close to as powerful as amped Desak and thus will still die.

As for cyborg supes, if BA is unsuccessful in draining he is going to get ganged up on and destroyed pretty fast. You havent provided a single feat for him yet but from the last post i know he has an amazing healing factor, however this wont help much when he is being damaged over and over by my teams superior raw power and numbers.

Hax for Days!!!

So, last post i focused more on my teams numbers advantage and raw power in which my team has a massive advantage. Now it's time to show off the numerous ways my team can gain a leg up and end this fight quickly and efficiently, bypassing my opponents defenses.

Soul Attacks/Soul Ripping

Kratos may not be on the same level as other characters in this tourney, however what he lacks in power he makes up for in his numerous versatile hax abilities. As shown in his bio Kratos has the ability to rip souls from their bodies thanks to the claws of Hades. Kratos was even able to tear out the soul of hades himself:

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this is super impressive as Hades had power over the souls of the entire world. I will need to see some soul resistance feats from Hank or else he gets soul ripped with ease, same goes for BA unless she taps into the powers of a being with soul resistance.

Along with the claws of Hades Kratos has the power of hope. This power allows him to attack on the soul and abstract level as shown in his battle with the spirit of Zeus corrupted by the abstract power of fear:

Kratos vs Astral Zeus

So not only can Kratos straight up tear your soul out, but if your resistant to that he can attack your soul as well thanks to the abstract power of hope inside him.

Transmutation

As you know from his bio, Kratos and his gorgons can turn people to stone, however Twi is actually far and away the best transmutation user on my team, as well as the most hax over all.

Twi turns animals into hybrid oranges

Twi and starlight show off their ability to spam transmutation, even creating a living creature

Even as a little kid Twi was able to transmute half her classroom into palm trees according to celestia:

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Twi transmutes things a lot and can do so without killing, for instance she can turn someone into a living apple, thus twi will be totally fine using this ability in combat.

Mind Meld and Mind Meld advanced

If you read my last two debates in this tourney i'm sure your familiar with the mind melding spell:

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This spell allows the caster to meld the mind of another person into their own, leaving the caster in control and the body of the other a mindless husk. In the past two rounds of this tourney i have used this spell successfully to counter and defeat both Charles Xavier and Stryfe (Cables omega level mutant clone), so if necessary this spell can easily put down one of your fighters, whether hank henshaw or alice, instantaneously.

There is one drawback to the above spell, it has only been shown to absorb the mind of a single individual. Thankfully the latest season of MLP (season 7 out now :D) has provided Twi with a brand new spell, an "imagination spell" which is basically a new kind of advanced mind melding.

Imagination Spell

This spell allows Twi, and whomever else she chooses, to enter her mind/consciousness. In this "astral" world Twi can make anything she imagines reality. This is not in violation of BFR, no one actually leaves the battlefield, their minds are simply stuck inside Twi's imagination. With this spell Twi could incapacitate your team instantly, trapping their minds in her imagination to fight an endless amount of mental foes while their bodies are rendered helpless to the rest of my team.

i think this would count as a KO/incap win, if not the rest of my team will destroy your physical bodies while you are trapped, thus winning the match with ease.

Magic Depowering

Alice ability to steal magic is extremely dangerous to mystic beings, but it is still a magical ability. Because of this Twi can depower BA leaving her absolutely useless in this fight:

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In the above scan Twi seals the magical abilities of three magician unicorns, the reason? they had used magic to steal her friends wings. Twi will use this ability in character as your strategy for BA is to steal Twi's teammates abilities, thus Twi will react just as she did in the above scan and take away Alice's magical ability, leaving her utterly useless and easily killed off.

Energy Absorption

Now, you havent yet showed off Hank's power with the yellow lantern rings, so just as a kind of preemptive counter let me point out that Thor (and his clone) has the ability to drain energy and is extremely good at it:

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In the above scans we see Thor absorb the radiation of Kang's futuristic suit and return it tenfold, we see him absorb the power of Thanosi (originally the real thanos) and return it one hundred fold and we see him absorb and redirect enough energy to reignite a sun.

Now as you know from my posts i do not think Cyborg Supes will be able to stand up to Odinforce Gear empowered Thor and his clone. Though CS is powerful i just cant see him beating two beings equal or more powerful than thanos, however if you show him to be threatening with his rings you should know the Thor's can drain them and thus negate any advantage he may or may not have with them.

How I think the Battle will go

As of right now, going on what has been shown, i think my team simply outclasses you in numbers, raw power and versatility. I wont outright say this is a stomp yet as you haven't shown scans yet, however i will say that i cant see a way your team wins.

The biggest problem from the start was Alice and her magic draining, however that ability wont work on Desak or Twilight, perhaps the two most important players on my team. Desak after amps has superman level combat speed, FTL movement/bullrush speed and instantaneous teleportation, this will allow him to easily tag BA even with her lightspeed perk. Desak (and his clone) are basically amped to the level of a low skyfather, this combined with their speed allows them to easily bullrush BA to death even if she happens to steal thor or Kratos powers. Twilight also has the ability to seal BA's magical abilities, leaving her utterly powerless. this is an in-character ability that twi will use if BA happens to drain anyone on my team.

After dealing with Alice's draining ability their really inst anything (shown so far) that threatens my team in any way. Ive got two low-skyfather level beings in amped Desak and his clone, two teambusters in Odinforce enhanced Thor and his clone, four high tiers in kratos, twi and their clones and an army of two hundred spirit gorgons. Power wise you are seriously, horrendously outclassed; Cyborg Supes healing factor wont be able to stand up to Desak's energy projection let alone my entire team, he will eventually get burnt to ashes and crushed by everyones TK (which twi gave them in prep). Unfortunately for you it doesn't even end there. On top of that Twi can end this battle with mind meld, transmutation or her imagination spell. Kratos also has the ability to put down CS immediately with his soul attacks and soul ripping.

I eagerly await your next post as you said you've held back in the previous rounds, so perhaps you've got a few tricks up your sleeve. I also want to know more about these "metal men" you mentioned only once as i didn't see you use them anywhere else in this tourney. My second post is done, Cheers to a great CAV! Yoor up Grammer Nazi ;p

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#28 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony: Ok, first you say Desak only scales his pwoer up to fight gods and doesn't copy their abilities, and mere paragraphs later, you say that he would copy Twilights TK. Choose one m8.

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#29 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony: Ok, first you say Desak only scales his pwoer up to fight gods and doesn't copy their abilities, and mere paragraphs later, you say that he would copy Twilights TK. Choose one m8.

your just getting confused man. Twi uses the magic absorbers to give everyone TK, its not Desaks own ability, its a result of Twi's prep. See in my first post in the prep section where i show twi can use the magic absorber devices to transform her teammates giving them alicorn abilities. Once desak has the TK it will scale to Twi's.

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#30 Edited by Xerolot (2975 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony

Hm, You convinced me that Twilight will be more usefull than I thought (like I have written in my first post here).

That is a very nice cav. Waiting for more

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#31 Edited by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@xerolot: Thanks man. She is really dangerous if you know how to use her.

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#32 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony: Sry for the wait, i am super swamped with obligations. Should come around soon enough, if i don't i will maybe have to drop out. THough 90% you will get a reply soon.

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#33 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: cool man and take your time, i don't mind waiting.

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#34 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony:

Round 2

Well, glad to see that there are things we disagree about as that makes the debate all the more fun, however, there seems to be 1 thing we completely agreed upon that will, unfortunately, bum out your strategy:

Alice can drain Thor and Kratos. I will refer to that as "Exhibit A" in the future.

But first, let's start by addressing your post:

Counters:

Thor:

I will keep this simple as i do not have any desires to go through all the scans you posted. I am more than familiar with the fact that Thor is super-durable. I was just saying he is not "no-sell enraged Hulk" durable. He is not. Hulk can, and has hurt him on multiple occasion.

Desak:

No, Desak's ability allows him to become as powerful as the god's he is fighting, therefore if he is fighting a team of gods he will scale to all of them to beat them. This is how he is able to kill off entire pantheons (such as his home pantheon of Kronnit), if he only scaled to the strongest god around he would get murdered by the combined might of all the others, Desak scales to all gods present combined. This can be seen in his fight with Pensu, Tae, Thor, Herc and BRB where he took them all on at the same time and all of them had differing levels of power yet none were powerful enough to solo all the others, thus proving he scaled to all of them combined.

You are either very wrong, or very disingenuous with this one. Desak is immune to the power of Gods. He doesn't need to scale to all of them to beat them. He simply needs to scale enough to be able to harm them and he can ignore their attacks, as he is immune to divine powers being used on him. Do you have any showings of him to prove that he actually scales above the combined powers of present gods? I sincerely doubt it. In my preparation for this debate, i have read all of Desak's appearances and nowhere does it state that he becomes that powerful, however, he shows, and states, multiple times that he is immune to their powers. So him battling gods is basically wolverine battling humans. It is not that he scales to be that much more powerful than them, it is that they cannot harm him by using the means at their disposal.

You also forgot something, the fact that Desak also absorbs any god power used on him. As i said and showed in my last post, during prep my team will blast Desak with their combined might increasing his power exponentially.

Ok, and to prove your point you will need to show feats of Desak fighting after absorbing the godblast. You know how it works, feats or bust. So far, he absorbed King Thor's attack and then promptly lost.

In-Character Behavior and Prep Counters:

prep time feats cant really be judged on the frequency of their use

This is exactly how you judge them actually. This is called "in-character behavior" and it is paramount to any a point being made in a debate like this one.

as even when using prep master characters they hardly ever replicate the feat again, prep is basically just puling plot devices out of your butt.

Once more, i need to step in with a resounding "no". While characters with prep have pulled out plot devices, their in-character behavior pre-battle is what matters more. It is not in-character for Thor to overly prep for a battle, and Kratos has literally never done it. EVER.

Taking an example from your last debate, thanos has created galactus killing bombs only one time right? And yet it was considered a valid feat for prep.

Actually, i had no idea how many times he did it and if it is considered as standard gear for Thanos, i took Apex_pretador's word for that as he stood as a sort of a Thanos expert around these parts. If i knew it was a one-time deal i would definitely debate against it.

If a character has accomplished something in prep even one time, and there is no context around it such as a need of a specific item, and if the character can accomplish this in the appropriate amount of time, then it is a valid feat.

It is a valid feat, i am not arguing that, but it is not a valid strategy for the individual to do in-character. Imagine if every Batman debate was Hellbat + Justice Buster + Insider Suit + Brother Eye + Tower of Babel... That would basically mean you subscribe to Wenjun_Chew's logic. And, that is not how these debates work. Not only are some feats heavy outliers of one's intelligence or prep feats overall, but they are simply too far out of character to be expected in a debate like this. Not to mention that even your own logic negates a lot of your claims.

You said "even one time" but Kratos has NEVER done what you suggest and Twilight has NEVER done what you suggest. Meaning that neither of those feats come in as "valid" by YOUR OWN TERMS.

Specific Prep Counters:

Thor Prep Counters:

So, let's take this step by step:

indeed, the rebuilt armour has the one showing vs thanosi as that was its last appearance... and your point is? It was shown to amp thor to the level of thanos or above, thats definitely more impressive than what base thor can do.

No, it was shown to amp Thor to the level of being capable of beating a clone of Thanos, and, as most would (and did agree when i brought up Thor beating up the clone of Thanos) is that the Clone is not as strong as Thanos the OG. And it was stated on-panel that the belt doubles the strength of Thor, and that was like 10 pages after the Odin amp you are talking about.

However, even if we take this as a legit feat. It is clearly a showing of outside help as Odin interfered and sent the armor via Firelord instead of Thor summoning it. In fact, since you said that this is the only appearance of this gear, we can see that Thor has NEVER summoned it. And, going by your logic alone, that means this is not a valid prep feat for Thor as it was never accomplished by Thor. It was done by Odin and delivered by Firestorm.

Yes, so what? The fact is Thor can summon his armour in prep. Thor isnt just going to sit and suck his thumb for 2 hours, he is going to do what he can and that is summon his armour.

Can=/= Will. Once more, bring your attention back to In-Character Behavior. There were many more instances where he knew the battle was coming and he did not summon this gear than when he did(zero times). So, yes, the chances are equal for him to suck his thumb as they are for him to summon the armor.

Actually it does not reference their creation, only their remaking. In Thor volume 2:25 Odin has commissioned Jagrfelm to refashion thor's armour for his battle with thanos, Odin then imbues them with a fraction of his power and sends them by the hand of fire lord to thor. Thor volume 2:25 takes place long, long after the belt and gauntlets were created, i advise you to read the comic so we can do away with these arguments over ignorance of context.

"Remaking"=Creation in this case as the new armor is entirely different from the original one. And i have read these, it is not ignorance on my part, it is simply a semantic disagreement. The statement that says the belt will double his strength came after the scan of Odin.

Yes, the clone was as durable as thanos because it was Thanos. when the comic was first written Thanosi was the true Thanos, he was called thanos throughout the arc and was not a clone. Starlin later returned and retconned him into a clone HOWEVER his portrayal and power level was not retconned.

It was retconned, it was not Thanos. Thanos took blasts from Power-Gem Thor and Odin himself. Thanosi got one-shot by a Thor with his strength doubled and a bit of Odin Force sent to him (and, since i know you will argue that it is not only doubling - Here ) Clearly, the Thanos clone and Thanos himself do not share the durability. Just like Darkseid being beaten by the power of love was retconned to it being Desaad doesn't magically make Desaad as powerful as Darkseid.

Kratos Prep Counters:

Firstly let me address Kratos ability to summon the gorgons. As i made clear in his bio, this version of kratos was never seen in the god of war games as he is fully composite.

So, what you are saying is that he is featless? Agreed. No feats, no proof.

in his composite form Kratos is in god form, has the power of hope, the power of the titans, the power of olympus, the power of Apollo, hades absorbed soul and the claws of hades; this version of kratos dwarfs in power any being we have seen in the GOW franchise and as he is a god he can wield the powers of the gods he has stolen to full effect.

Have we seen him wield the powers of other gods to their full effects?

So, with that said what your really asking is whether gods, more specifically hades, can summon 200 gorgons, and the answer is definitely yes.

No, what i am asking is, have we seen KRATOS summon 200 gorgons. EVER? If he never did it he either CANNOT or WILL NOT do so. Either way - Not happening.

Hades had power over the entire underworld and every soul in it, when he died all the souls of the dead were loosed to roam the lands of the living. Kratos in composite form can utilize hades full power to the fullest, thus he can easily summon 200 gorgons.

Irrelevant and bad argument. Do you use Odin's feats for Odin Force Thor? Should i use full Spectre Feats for Alice? No, because neither have the feats to back those claims up. So, once more, Do you have the feats or not?

Now, as for your question of if it is in character for kratos to summon them, yes i think it is but it is also an invalid question.

So, any question that undermines your strategy is an "invalid" one? Or are you saying that In-Character behavior is an invalid argument?

Kratos didnt have prep during his games nor did he have the power of his composite form. If we look at how other gods acted we see that most all the major deities including kratos fellow war god ares summon hordes of creatures to fight around them and for them. So, kratos has the capability to summon the gorgons and it would be in character for him to do so.

What you said here is "Ares summons hordes of creatures so it is in character for Kratos to do it". Now that doesn't make any sense. Kratos never did what you are saying so you have no proof of him being capable or willing to do so. He has 0 prep feats. That doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want. That means you get 0 (in letters ZERO) prep feats for him. Simple as that.

Twilight prep Counters:

once again, you cant judge prep feats by their consistency. as i stated earlier, even prep masters hardly ever replicate the same feat twice.

Which is why it is not valid to use feats that they cannot replicate in a debate like this. Consistency is the exact way you judge someones prep capabilities. In that regard, prep is no different from any other type of a feat.

Twi as the element of magic has the ability to perfectly copy a type of magic after seeing it done only once.

Which would be cool if anyone ever used aforementioned spells on somebody else. To me it seems like it is a self-cast spell.

So, Twi can replicate any magic she sees, in fact she can nigh master an entire style of magic after seeing only one spell of its kind performed a single time. Glimmer showed twi accelero + similo duplexus and explained how they worked, thus Twi will be able to use them.

First of all, what you are saying, again, is that Twilight has never used those spells like that. But you ask of us to ignore that fact. Ok, let's do that.

Secondly, i am yet to see Twilight using the spell on others.

Also, Twi is overly prepared to the point of insanity. If she knows something is about to happen she will try to prepare in any way possible, trying to account for any and all eventualities. She would amp herself and her teammates as much as she could before the time ran out and would be spazzed out thinking she hadn't done enough XD

Is she really? I mean, i do need to see her feats of overly preparing for combat. From what i have seen during this debate, she has been caught off guard quite a number of times. Does she usually amp her teammates as much as she can? Feats please.

Your Combat Strategy (debate):

So, you decided to pivot this debate on this:

Alright, i agree she will drain thor and Kratos if she gets the chance, IF she gets the chance seeing as she will be being attacked by two speedster teleporting Desak's.

And dude, she is waay faster than that. Ok, you have 4000 actions per second. Which is not bad. But do you know what Lightspeed is? It is 300.000.000 meters per second. If we decide that for each book placed in a rushed way takes 2-3 times more than crossing a meter of distance without placing the book (generous estimate), we would get the number of 12.000 per second. That means that the Lightspeed perk makes her 25000 (twenty-five thousand) times faster than that. Furthermore, i have already shown her draining Cheetah who was trying to blitz her. And that is New 52 Cheetah.. You know, faster than Flash and Superman. And yet, Lori drained her before Cheetah could blitz her. And once she drains Thor and Kratos she will be more than powerful enough to survive Desak's attack.

And that is all under the assumption that you can provide a scan of Twilight using Accelero on somebody else.

While thor's combat speed is suspect no one can deny his insane flight speed, thus Desak easily overtaking and blitzing him mid flight is a great feat of speed. With Twi's amp added on to his already immense flight speed Desak could quite easily bullrush BA and take her head off.

Actually, in that story Thor's power was split, and he only had like 10% of it. which includes his flight speed, also, he never moved that quickly in the atmosphere, much like Superman. In outer space, yes, Both Thor and Supes are MFTL. In the Earth's atmosphere, neither are really as fast. And from the feats you have shown, you are nowhere near proving that someone who can move and react at lightspeed will be tagged.

Along with the above Desak can teleport across universes and dimensions instantaneously, this is how he traverses the divine realms.

Teleportation is not a speed feat and is really not an interchangeable term with speed.

So, Desak has reflexes/combat speed on par with superman, FTL flight/bullrushing speed and instantaneous teleportation which he can now use to telefrag thanks to my nightcrawler perk. Desak will easily be able to tag BA and kill her, whether by telefragging, bull rushing or in combat.

Well, this was a MASSIVE leap of logic. There is a big difference between Twilight's accelero and Superman's speed. Not to mention that, when Twilight used the Accelero spell that you mentioned, she barely broke the sound barrier.

I also dont think telefragging is some super hard to learn skill, nightcrawler simply doesnt do it because of his morals. Desak doesnt have nightcrawlers morals, thus he will use it, simple as that.

So many things are not a hard-to-learn skill, but characters don't use it. Desak would potentially be willing to use it, but he lacks feats to prove that he has enough skill to pull it off the same way Kurt does. And, also, he is still too slow for a lightspeed character. (as mention, 25000 times slower).

Actually he (Cyborg Superman) will be engaged by twi, thor, kratos, their clones and the 200 spirit gorgons. also, Desak after scaling and amping will dwarf Cyborg supes in power and as shown above the speed will be comparable, plus desak has the teleporting advantage.

Except that Thor and Kratos are both drained of power (I will turn your Attention to - Exhibit A. which has you agreeing that Black Alice can drain them, thus ensuring their instadeath by the hands of Hank or even BA). Also, you failed to show Desak's feats to ever put him at levels of "Dwarfing" Cyborg Superman. All you have here is Thor and Kratos for him to scale off. Neither are above CS. In fact, Thor is about Superman's level. And Kratos is waay below. So, even with the said scale, he is not "dwarfing" Hank in any way, shape or form.

actually going by the scan of her stealing cheetah's power that you provided, her magic steal is not instantaneous and takes a small amount of time to activate.

It happened in a single panel, that doesn't show time. We know that Cheetah is FTL and Lori drained her before Cheetah could blitz her. IF you need feats for Cheetah, I will Oblige

Blitzed Superman, Tagged Flash, Outreacted and Tagged Flash, And Again,

That is how fast her draining is in New 52. True, if i was relying solely on her Pre 52 feats i would be in trouble, but BA actually got an amp in New 52 much like many an other character and this tourney allows both Pre and New 52 versions of my characters. So, she can drain FTL characters before they tag her and that was before she got the lightspeed perk courtesy of EmperorThanos.

This begs some questions such as, can BA steal thor and kratos powers before Desak and his clone bullrush her head clean off? Will BA be able to concentrate and steal anyone powers while fleeing from two FTL instantaneous teleporting Desaks?

So, to answer. Yes, she can steal their powers. She has never shown the need to concentrate to steal powers, she does it quite casually, even from the characters as powerful as the Spectre. Also, when did we jump to Desak being faster than light? Your top feat shows him at 4.000 actions per second. Which is still 25000 times slower than light.

she happens to steal thor or kratos powers she will still get oneshot by a bullrush from desak and his adamantium blades as after prep he will have amped to a level far beyond thor and kratos combined, however i doubt she will even be able to steal their powers at all while running for her life.

FEAAATS OR GTFO!!!! First of all, Desak was never capable of oneshotting Thor. He was capable of maybe beating him, but never oneshotting. And Black Alice would have the powers of thor+ the powers of Kratos + the Alicorn amp (if she can't drain Twilight, she just drains the other members of your team) + the lightspeed perk.

So far you have mostly just failed to show any good feats to explain how exactly Desak wins this clash.

As discussed above it is highly unlikely BA will be able to drain anyone as she will either be running from the Desak's or wil already be decapitated by a bullrush or telefrag from them. If BA is unsuccessful in her draining then my two Odinforce empowered Thor's will put a righteous beatdown on cyborg's metal behind even worse than the one given to thanosi.

First of all, your Thor is not Odinforce empowered, that is outside help and Thor cannot just pull Odinforce out of his ass. As we have mentioned, he has never summoned OF gear. EVER. And, as i have proven. BA is definitely more than fast enough even WITHOUT the perk to drain them all before she gets hit. The lightspeed perk makes it too fast for Desak to imagine.

As for Kratos (and his clone), while i agree he is not on the level of a herald like cyborg supes he can still hold his own and be an asset to my team. Kratos is a legit high-mid tier to high tier level character, able to casually oneshot kill mid-tiers like the titan perses

Which is utterly irrelevant as he will be depowered and instakilled before he does anything of note.

i proved the gorgon army above. im interested in these metal men though, you dont seem to mention them anywhere else in your post.

Manhunters. he is the Grandmaster and controls them all. I did mention them in the opener i believe. And you did not prove anything. You shown a totally different character doing it. It is still not in Kratos' character to perfor prep feats.

Countering your Hax

Soul Attacks/Soul Ripping

Interesting strategy, unfortunately, useless, as Kratos would be powerless in moments against a Lightspeed Black Alice. Also, IIRC (do correct me if i am mistaken) he always battled his opponents before using that move.

Transmutation:

Twi is actually far and away the best transmutation user on my team, as well as the most hax over all.

Twi turns animals into hybrid oranges

Twi and starlight show off their ability to spam transmutation, even creating a living creature

Even as a little kid Twi was able to transmute half her classroom into palm trees according to celestia:

Twi transmutes things a lot and can do so without killing, for instance she can turn someone into a living apple, thus twi will be totally fine using this ability in combat.

Not bad, but from what i have seen from following your links i can notice a couple of things, first, it is a beam attack, it would have to connect and it didn't seem too fast for my team.

Secondly, all transmuted living things seemed fine, which would mean Alice could transmute back (she holds Alicorn powers now too) or Cyborg could just move to a new body.

Mind Meld and Mind Meld advanced

Both useless as my team has mind protection perk. Simplest counter ever.

Magic Draining:

It was never specifically shown that BA's draining is magical. But regardless of that, are you really going for a tug of war against her? Do you really believe she can outdrain someone who drained the Spectre? Also, once more, it was a magic blast type attack, easily dodged or blocked by Black Alice using Mjolnir.

Energy Absorption:

Now, you havent yet showed off Hank's power with the yellow lantern rings, so just as a kind of preemptive counter let me point out that Thor (and his clone) has the ability to drain energy and is extremely good at it.

Thor is gonna be depowered for this fight. Remember, lightspeed Black Alice, you agreeing he has no defense to that? I called it Exhibit A...

Back to my Offense:

Teamwork:

Desak would attack Thor. No questions asked. Why? Because that is the last memory Desak can have as Thor KILLED HIM in that story. But let's address your "counter".

Context is key my man, Desak will have no quarrel with Thor in this tourney, let me explain. During the events leading up to the reigning the designate sent Desak to kill Thor as at this time the god of thunder was losing his humanity and the designate saw the evil he would bring. Desak was thus led to kill thor to stop the great evil he foresaw would happen in the future.

The last info Desak got from Tarene (who is the Designate, as you know) was that he MUST KILL THOR AT ALL COSTS.

So, does this mean Desak will still want to kill Thor? No. Thor's soul has since been healed and he has reconciled with the designate in Thor volume 2: 79, so the designate will not be leading Desak to hunt thor,

But Desak does not know that. He was already dead when that happened. The last info he had was that he MUST KILL THOR AT ALL COSTS

In fact, this is what Desak had to say to Thor:

Now, and forevermore consider us ENEMIES
Now, and forevermore consider us ENEMIES

And do you know what their next two pieces of interaction were?

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2
Yes, Thor Killed Him, Twice. No way Desak will want revenge (sarcasm)

Now, i get your point, you aim at the idea that the Designate will tell Desak to stand down here. But that would be Outside meddling in this scenario, and thus, not allowed.

In this situation Desak will work with thor. they may not be friends (though twi could get them to be :D) but they will still work together and the designate (tarene) who guides Desak and has reconciled with Thor will not let her pawn go rogue.

Designate is not in this fight. She will do nothing, and she will not interfere in any a way, shape or form.

As for Kratos, at the end of GOW3 he "repented" of his sins and is no longer totally controlled by rage and hate. Kratos worked with gods for most of his life, he has no quarrel with Thor and thus will work with him just fine as well.

I misspoke, yes, Kratos would work with Thor, but would he work with Desak? I highly doubt that, Desak murders gods, and Kratos Qualifies. You literally took a serial killer and put him in the team with two people who are his main target group. Desak would enjoy killing them even during prep. Teamwork is a big deal in tourneys, and your team doesn't have it.

Flaws of your prep, once more:

Ive proven all my prep plans are doable and in character. as for Twi's clones having all her abilities, in season 3 episiode 3 "too many pinkie pies" we see cloning magic for the first time as Pinkie enters the enchanted pool and creates hundreds of clones of herself, all of which retain her toonforce abilities and act almost exactly like her.

No, you did not, in fact, the episode you cited had nothing to do with the spell you are saying Twilight would use, so you are being doubly wrong :P ... P Pie in that episode was not being doubled by Twilight or the spell, but by the Mirror Pool . It is quite obvious that those two are not the same and you cannot use the clones created by the Mirror Pool as proof that Twilight's clones would have the same properties.

Furthermore, the evidence would show that similo duplexus creates clones exactly like the original, in fact the spell was described by starlight as "being in two places at once", showing the clones are the same as the original.

I see no evidence of that. Also, i, once more, see no evidence that it can be used on characters other than the caster herself.

Actually you do not hold the speed edge. Desak with his amps has FTL travel/bullrushing speed, superman level combat speed and instantaneous teleportation, the rest of my team also has superman level combat speed and thor has FTL bull rushing speed. Twi is also extremely fast, as shown in her bio she has instantaneous teleportation and also she has all the power of her fellow alicorns, one of which was able to travel from the moon to equestria with superspeed:

I do hold the speed edge, you have no feats to show Desak being FTL except, potentially during Travel, which is yet to be proven. You are yet to prove that Accelero can be cast on others, so i doubt she can actually do it, and even if she can, 4000 actions per second is 25000 times slower than Alice. Your team is slow in comparison. Teleportation is not a speed feat. Also, the moon of Equestria is not nearly as far away as the Moon is from Earth, thus making traveling from it to land not as impressive (i will post proof later.)

Cyborg supes is not as powerful as Desak at all. As explained in my intro, after prep Desak equals my entire amped team in power and through twi's prep has telekinesis twice as powerful as her own. How powerful is Twi's TK? It has moved the sun and moon at superspeed!

Twi moving sun and moon

Except that the Moon of Equestria is tiny, and i have no reason to believe that the Sun is much bigger there too. Here is the proof:

What can we conclude from this? Well, first of all, once Twi was bored, it only took their moon a couple of seconds to drop the to ground, meaning it is not hundreds of thousands of miles away, but, in fact, is rather close. And secondly, we can see that it is, in fact, tiny.

No Caption Provided

The moon of Equestria is really tiny. Like, building sized. That means that this sentence:

So, Desak has multi-solar system TK, double the strength and durability of OF empowered thor, superspeed, ect. Desak will murderstomp CS if they fight.

Is very, very flawed. So, let's go.

1. Nothing Multi-Solar system there. In fact, the magic amp Twilight would give your team will only provide more fuel for Black Alice.

2. He would get double of nothing. As we have seen, as soon as Thor stopped using his energy blasts and used the Axe he oneshot killed Desak without much hardship. Same happened when he used Mjolnir in the later fight. Desak does not scale up to the combined powers of present gods, he just beats them because he is immune to their powers.

3. His Superspeed is not quite on the level of Superman who Hank actually Blitzed in combat.

Let's go on:

Actually, going by what has been shown so far, BA will get blindside beheaded by Desak and his clone before she can drain anyone, or she will be to busy running from the desaks to steal my teammates powers in which case she still dies. Even if she drained thor and kratos (as explained before she likely cant drain twi) she still wont even be close to as powerful as amped Desak and thus will still die.

BA gets lightspeed from the Perk, i cannot show her lightspeed feats since it only comes from the perk and there are no scans of her moving at that speed. She has drained enemies moving far faster than Desak however, and can move thousands of times faster than him thanks to the Perk. After Draining Thor and Kratos, it is 2v2 and Twilight lacks the durability to tango with Hank or the THor+ Kratos + Alicorn + Lightspeed Black Alice.

As for cyborg supes, if BA is unsuccessful in draining he is going to get ganged up on and destroyed pretty fast. You havent provided a single feat for him yet but from the last post i know he has an amazing healing factor, however this wont help much when he is being damaged over and over by my teams superior raw power and numbers.

Black Alice easily drains your team. But true, i did not provide feats in the opener, i apologize, my bad. I will post quite a bit of feats at the end of this post, but for now, here he is easily stomping Eradicator + Supergirl + Steele + Superboy. Also, your team doesn't have the numbers advantage at all since Thor and Kratos will be useless.

Back To Me Once More - Cyborg Superman

You said i didn't show any feats for him, and that is true, so it is time to show what he can do:

Strength:

As i said, his strength comes from the fact that he cloned the DNA of Kal El and thus is equally strong without his power rings, but, let's show some scans:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
1. Rips a Doomsday Clone apart (technically every Doomsday is a clone, that is his origin story, however, this Doomsday has good feats, can post if you want). 2. OHKO's Gardner (had rings, didn't use them) 3. Manhandles Superman 4. With Rings - beats the living daylight out of Kal.

I don't like making these side by side images too long, so the last one goes here, he also snapped Monguls arm like a twig. As you can see, he is easily as strong as Clark or stronger.

Durability:

This is where he shines, even without his healing factor he is insanely durable:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
1. No sells Superman and some exposition on his powers. 2. No sells Hall Jordans all out blast. 3. No sells Kyle and John at the same time 4. Tanks an attack from Guardians.

My personal fav - Tanks an omega beam (proof)

Speed:

As i have said, his physicals come from copying Superman's powers + his tech. This means he can fight as fast as Supes and he shows this by fighting none other than Superman (and also Doomsday, Hal Jordan Etc):

Bullrushes:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
1. Bullrushes Hal 2. Superman 3.4. Doomsday.

Combat:

As we all know bullrushing is usually not enough to make a solid case for combat speed, what we need to see is him adjusting mid fight. And i actually can do just that:

In the can of him blitzing Superman he actually did it in response to being smacked by Big Blue (which he no sold, as if i need any more durability feats), and he blitzed Superman straight back to Earth to continue to pummel his ass (notice how every punch makes Superman make a Sonic boom).

Ranged Attacks:

Just like Superman he has his heat vision, freeze breath and then some more ranged attacks that come with technopathy, let's take a quick look:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
1. Freeze Breath 2. heat Vision takes out Mogul 3. Hand Blasts dispatches Eradicator 4. One shots Superman.

Technopathy:

His healing factor and immortality both come back to this, he has complete control over machinery and can use it to repair any damage he sustains during combat. He is also basically truly immortal by "conventional" means. He even survived attacks that took out the Anti-Monitor. In the speed department you can see him reassembling instantly to destroy Doomsday so you can be sure that his "fixing" power is without match, however, this is the proof of his immortality and the reason i want 200 manhunters which he can summon at will (also have the scans to back it up should the need arise).

This should be enough of his feats for now, i have some even better, but they could be considered outliers.

Current conclusions

Prep - Well, if we conveniently forget the In-Character behavior rule, his prep would be valid, except for a couple of tiny details:

1. Thor never summoned the gear he wants to use under his own power. It was sent to him by Odin. (Outside Help)

2. Desak would murder both Thor and Kratos during prep. Last known order for him was to kill Thor at all costs. Brony wants us to believe the Designate would stop him but that would be - Outside help

3. Twilight never used the Accelero+Clone spells together. In fact, it was only done by Starlight who has proven to be better than twi as she was capable of handling twilight while Twi had her Alicorn powers (starlight is a lot weaker). Since she had a LOT less power and she stalemated Twi, it is safe to assume the difference is in the skill.

4. In fact, that combo of spells was never used on anybody but the caster.

5. Kratos never summoned hordes to fight for him. He wouldn't do so now.

6. He amps them by using technology made by twilight. Cyborg Superman uses the tech against them. As he usually does.

Battle - He wants Thor and Kratos to block Hank for Desak while Desak fights Alice. It does have significant flaws.

1. They get de-powered and die.

2. Alice would have combined powers of Thor+Kratos+Alicorn amps + Lightspeed Perk, and thus easily capable of surviving till Thor and Kratos are dispatched.

3. Desak didn't show feats to prove that him absorbing blasts amps him that much. In fact, after absorbing a LOT of Odin Force (a lot more than his entire team could muster during prep) he was still out-sped by Thialfi, and murdered by Thor. If absorbing energy amped him as much as he claims, taking in that much should mean he should be capable of manhandling an already injured, and spent Thor. But no, he lost. And yes, i know the Axe of Skurge has enchantments, but if he was as impressive as you claim with the draining he should never allow Thor to land that hit.

4. Feats. I have presented Hank's now, until i see better one's from you Desak loses his fight.

5. With mountaintop durability Twilight wouldn't withstand a single blast from Hank or Black Alice.

Of course, if we ignore the standard rules of ComicVine (in-character behavior and teamwork.) his team sounds great. But realistically, he made a horrible mistake in putting together characters who hate each other.

Not a grammar Nazi, but "your next" was too sweet to miss.

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#35 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31472 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: My match just finished the openers. So you're fine. lmao

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#36 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: it'll probably be a good long while before i post, just a heads up :D

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#38 Edited by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

Post the Third

No Caption Provided

Debunking Contextual Errors

This has been a great debate so far, however in my opponents last post there were many, many errors of context. my opponent has done what a debater should almost never do, argue the context of the other debaters characters. A few of these mistakes chime made were extremely egregious and he has based much of his argument on them, therefore i will be debunking them openly first. these are not the only contextual errors, but they are the biggest and from them come many others, so lets get started.

Using FanFiction as a counter?!

Except that the Moon of Equestria is tiny, and i have no reason to believe that the Sun is much bigger there too. Here is the proof:

What can we conclude from this? Well, first of all, once Twi was bored, it only took their moon a couple of seconds to drop the to ground, meaning it is not hundreds of thousands of miles away, but, in fact, is rather close. And secondly, we can see that it is, in fact, tiny.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11121/111219076/5861276-cats.jpg

Let this be a lesson to everyone reading, don't argue your opponents context unless you are 100% sure you know what your talking about. Chime tries to use the above scan to prove that Twi moving the sun and moon with TK is not impressive as the sun and moon in equestria are smaller... however what he failed to realize is that the above scan isnt canon, in fact its from a fanfiction youtube series! Here is the video the scan comes from (Video), its a fanmade show called MLP: Friendship is witchcraft that has zero relevance to canon.

Yup, chime thought that after a quick internet search he could call out an expert and MLP fan on context. Not a good idea. Sadly for my opponent if he had just searched a little longer he would have found that the sun and moon in MLP FIM were confirmed by a show writer to be the size of the sun and moon in modern science:

No Caption Provided

ok then, lets move on...

Desak's power argument... Again

You are either very wrong, or very disingenuous with this one. Desak is immune to the power of Gods. He doesn't need to scale to all of them to beat them. He simply needs to scale enough to be able to harm them and he can ignore their attacks, as he is immune to divine powers being used on him. Do you have any showings of him to prove that he actually scales above the combined powers of present gods? I sincerely doubt it. In my preparation for this debate, i have read all of Desak's appearances and nowhere does it state that he becomes that powerful, however, he shows, and states, multiple times that he is immune to their powers. So him battling gods is basically wolverine battling humans. It is not that he scales to be that much more powerful than them, it is that they cannot harm him by using the means at their disposal.

Once again, as i said in my first post, i already spent the entire last round of this tourney arguing how Desak's powers work. I provided almost every fight he has been a part of and broke them all down explaining how his powers work. i won the last round based on that i successfully proved for a fact his powers work as i say, im not going to argue it all again. Head on over to the last round if you want to read all the proof of how his powers work:

PYP 2017 Asgardianbrony vs Arkbound

Now, i will however address what you claim and show how illogical it is. my opponent claims Desak does not need to scale up to gods as he is immune to their powers, however once again my opponent fails to understand context. Desak is immune to god power (energy, hax abilities) however he is not immune to their physical attacks nor is he immune to weapons. Desak has to scale up to gods or else he would be killed by their physical attacks, that Desak is able to take on entire pantheons with skyfathers, hell lords, numerous major gods and thousands of lesser gods is proof he scales to gods as otherwise he would not survive their physical assault.

once again, if your confused about his powers head on over to the last round i linked above. at this point its like if someone was arguing about superman becoming stronger from sunlight, its ridiculous and has been proven already. i want to actually debate about the battle, not context, i already debated context for a month and won.

Ok, and to prove your point you will need to show feats of Desak fighting after absorbing the godblast. You know how it works, feats or bust. So far, he absorbed King Thor's attack and then promptly lost.

Context man, CONTEXT. Thor was able to kill desak because Desak is not immune to god weapons, this is the only way Thor was able to kill desak. If youve read his fights then you know Desak after absorbing Thor's attacks became strong enough to stomp him.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

In the above scans King Thor channels the full power of the odinforce onto Desak, who subsequently absorbs it, smiles and then stomps KT into the dirt. this reflects their earlier fight where Desak absorbed OF Thor's power then tomped and was about to kill him before thialfi brought thor the blood axe and Desak was killed because he is not immune to weapons.

moving on again...

Claiming belt of strength isn't the belt of strength?

However, even if we take this as a legit feat. It is clearly a showing of outside help as Odin interfered and sent the armor via Firelord instead of Thor summoning it. In fact, since you said that this is the only appearance of this gear, we can see that Thor has NEVER summoned it. And, going by your logic alone, that means this is not a valid prep feat for Thor as it was never accomplished by Thor. It was done by Odin and delivered by Firestorm.

"Remaking"=Creation in this case as the new armor is entirely different from the original one. And i have read these, it is not ignorance on my part, it is simply a semantic disagreement. The statement that says the belt will double his strength came after the scan of Odin.

Chime is now trying to say the belt used in thor's fight with Thanosi is not the same as Megingjord the belt of strength, even though Thor clearly says they are the same:

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this is not a "semantic argument", chime is simply grasping at contextual straws and failing. the belts are very clearly the exact same as is said in the comic, the belt of strength was simply upgraded by Odin for Thor's fight with thanosi. as they are the same belt Thor has summoned the belt before, thus chimes lackluster argument that thor cant summon the odinforce infused belt is ridiculous and easily debunked.

Also, as you can see the belt of strength already doubled thor's powers long before Odin enhanced it. after being infused with the odinforce the belt obviously, by feats and logic, does far more than simply double thor's strength.

Mid-post note to voters

the above arguments used by my opponent are easily debunked and thus so is much of the rest of his argument as it is founded on these contextual inaccuracies. When i vote on CAVs many times both debaters are experts on their own characters and put forth good arguments, therefore i usually look for who made the most contextual errors. Chime, out of desperation at seeing my teams far superior fire power, has not only attacked my context and failed but has even resorted to using fanfiction as an argument! if i were a voter, personally, this would definitely tip the scales against chime.

Defense of Last Post

Thor Prep

Can=/= Will. Once more, bring your attention back to In-Character Behavior. There were many more instances where he knew the battle was coming and he did not summon this gear than when he did(zero times). So, yes, the chances are equal for him to suck his thumb as they are for him to summon the armor.

that can be said of any character, even prep masters. i guess we should just discount all batman's prep feats as 99% of the time he doesn't fight his enemies with the Hell-bat XD. Thor has used his belt when needed of his own accord, he did it vs Exitar in Thor #387-89, vs Kurse in Thor #363 and vs the midgard serpent in Thor #379-80, it is in-character for him to do so.

No, it was shown to amp Thor to the level of being capable of beating a clone of Thanos, and, as most would (and did agree when i brought up Thor beating up the clone of Thanos) is that the Clone is not as strong as Thanos the OG. And it was stated on-panel that the belt doubles the strength of Thor, and that was like 10 pages after the Odin amp you are talking about.

I could care less that some unnamed users agreed with you about thanosi. the fact is he was being written as thanos, was clearly meant to have the same power level and was also greatly amped by mystical artifacts. if he wasnt originally at thanos level (which all the proof shows) then the artifacts put him on or above that level.

It was retconned, it was not Thanos. Thanos took blasts from Power-Gem Thor and Odin himself. Thanosi got one-shot by a Thor with his strength doubled and a bit of Odin Force sent to him (and, since i know you will argue that it is not only doubling - Here ) Clearly, the Thanos clone and Thanos himself do not share the durability.

Thanosi was not oneshot by Odinforce enhanced Thor, please look at the fight again.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

as can be clearly seen they brawled for a while and Thor won by destroying Thanosi artifacts then overwhelming him while stunned. this feat does not prove the clone is weaker than thanos at all, in fact it is very consistent with his power level as a teambuster. Thanos tanking odin's blasts is a horribly wanked and inconsistent showing IMO, he is nowhere near skyfather level by consistent feats.

Just like Darkseid being beaten by the power of love was retconned to it being Desaad doesn't magically make Desaad as powerful as Darkseid.

bad example, again. is Desaad a clone of darkseid who was originally written as the same? no, he is a totally different character with his own proven power level so we know he is weaker than DS, unlike thanosi who was written to be as powerful as thanos and has nothing to suggest otherwise. totally different circumstances.

It is not in-character for Thor to overly prep for a battle

"overly prep?" all he is doing is summoning a belt XD

Thor has used the belt when he has had prep before and has the ability to instantly summon it, he will do so in this match.

Kratos Prep

So, what you are saying is that he is featless? Agreed. No feats, no proof.

Have we seen him wield the powers of other gods to their full effects?

No, what i am asking is, have we seen KRATOS summon 200 gorgons. EVER? If he never did it he either CANNOT or WILL NOT do so. Either way - Not happening.

you seem to either not be able to understand, or are purposely not understanding this point. I am using COMPOSITE kratos. This Kratos is a version with all powers and abilities in the games he ever had. this version of Kratos has NEVER BEEN SEEN in the series, in fact we only see god kratos for a minute and he doesn't get to use his powers. This version of Kratos has power greater than any other character seen in the game series, he has powers of gods, titans, monsters, god weapons, and he is a god himself. yes tis version is mostly speculation, but its valid speculation that can be used in argument as composite kratos is just that powerful.

Irrelevant and bad argument. Do you use Odin's feats for Odin Force Thor? Should i use full Spectre Feats for Alice? No, because neither have the feats to back those claims up. So, once more, Do you have the feats or not?

Once again, another stupid and irrelevant argument (sorry for my harshness). Composite Kratos dwarfs everyone else in the GOW games in power! a good example is Rune King Thor. He doesn't have many feats of his own but everyone knows he is superior to Odin and in fact Odin's feats are attributed to him as he is simply far more powerful.

He has 0 prep feats. That doesn't mean you get to do whatever you want. That means you get 0 (in letters ZERO) prep feats for him. Simple as that.

Really man, you have got to stop arguing over context, its not turning out good for you. Kratos actually does have a prep feat and it is of summoning >:D

Kratos summons the Titanomachy

at the end of GOW2 Kratos uses his power of the fates to summon the titans from the great war, he then leads his army against the gods of olympus. at this time Kratos didnt have the claws nor was he composite, but we see that it is in character for him to assemble an army in prep, he is the greatest general in spartan history after all.

What you said here is "Ares summons hordes of creatures so it is in character for Kratos to do it". Now that doesn't make any sense. Kratos never did what you are saying so you have no proof of him being capable or willing to do so.

above i showed kratos summoning an army when he had prep, so it is in-character. also, this is god kratos with the soul and claws of hades. almost every major god, including ares whose powers kratos has in god form, have shown the ability to summon legions of minions.

it is in-character for kratos to assemble an army in prep and as kratos is composite (more powerful than anyone in GOW by far) he has the power to accomplish my prep.

Twi's Prep

Which would be cool if anyone ever used aforementioned spells on somebody else. To me it seems like it is a self-cast spell.

Most all MLP spells can be used on oneself and others, for example Transmutation, teleportation and forcefields. Also, composite Twi has the power of the four alicorn princesses making her the most powerful being in equestria (along with amped tirek), more powerful even than discord who can perform magic on a solar system level casually.

Also, does this seem like a self-cast spell to you just like that fanfiction scan seemed canon? LOL.

First of all, what you are saying, again, is that Twilight has never used those spells like that. But you ask of us to ignore that fact. Ok, let's do that.

she has used accelero, i showed you last post. she was just shown how to use the spells together this recently and as MLP is not a fighting show she hasnt had reason to use it, however i have proven he can as she can instantly master magic after seeing it done once.

Is she really? I mean, i do need to see her feats of overly preparing for combat. From what i have seen during this debate, she has been caught off guard quite a number of times. Does she usually amp her teammates as much as she can? Feats please.

no one in MLP fights alot, twi hasnt had prep time for fights to my knowledge. im talking in general, in-character, Twi is overly prepared for everything. here is a funny little clip showing how overly organized and prepared she is (clip). i cant go linking you every episode of MLP FIM XD, its just part of her character that she tries to do everything perfectly.

Final Defense of my Prep

In-Character Behavior

It is a valid feat, i am not arguing that, but it is not a valid strategy for the individual to do in-character. Imagine if every Batman debate was Hellbat + Justice Buster + Insider Suit + Brother Eye + Tower of Babel... That would basically mean you subscribe to Wenjun_Chew's logic.

that is a horrible example and not valid at all. as ive said throughout this tourney all my prep can be accomplished easily in less than the two hours my perk provides. the instant magic and spells my team utilizes in prep is not even remotely comparable to an idiot like wenjun_chew claiming batman can create all the above machinery, traps, ect in 2 hours.

And, that is not how these debates work. Not only are some feats heavy outliers of one's intelligence or prep feats overall, but they are simply too far out of character to be expected in a debate like this.

which feats are heavy outliers of ones intelligence? as evidenced above you don't know the context of my characters nearly as well as i do, your hardly a credible source to decide which of my prep feats are outliers and which aren't.

Effectiveness of Prep

No, you did not, in fact, the episode you cited had nothing to do with the spell you are saying Twilight would use, so you are being doubly wrong :P ... P Pie in that episode was not being doubled by Twilight or the spell, but by the Mirror Pool . It is quite obvious that those two are not the same and you cannot use the clones created by the Mirror Pool as proof that Twilight's clones would have the same properties.

I see no evidence of that. Also, i, once more, see no evidence that it can be used on characters other than the caster herself.

i never said that it was Twi cloning pinkie in that instance, just that it is a showing of equestrian magic creating clones equal to the original.

If you go to the 29 second mark Glimmer explains the cloning spell is actually "being in two places at once", implying the clone is an absolute duplicate of the original just like the mirror pool's spell.

I do hold the speed edge, you have no feats to show Desak being FTL except, potentially during Travel, which is yet to be proven. You are yet to prove that Accelero can be cast on others, so i doubt she can actually do it, and even if she can, 4000 actions per second is 25000 times slower than Alice. Your team is slow in comparison. Teleportation is not a speed feat. Also, the moon of Equestria is not nearly as far away as the Moon is from Earth, thus making traveling from it to land not as impressive (i will post proof later.)

firstly, as explained in the twi prep section, most all spells in mlp shown so far can be used on other characters, also twi is more powerful than any other pony in the show by far so whatever shortcomings they may have she does not.

Secondly, while your little calc for lightspeed looks good on paper i dont think its valid in debate. comic characters who are light speed hardly ever, if at all, have feats or operate on that level. One of superman's best speed feats that his fans brag about is his flurry of punches against doomsday:

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by your logic the above feat isnt impressive at all and superman is tens of thousands of times slower than lightspeedsters, that's simply ridiculous. on paper your math might look good but just like real world physics it is hardly relevant in a fictional battle.

Twi's speed spell is actually faster than the above feat. As you can tell by reading the dialogue it takes clark longer than 5 seconds to perform 4,035 punches whereas Glimmer with the spell was able to perform 4,000 actions in 5 seconds flat. My teams speed after amp is on superman's level making it easily fast enough to fight with a lightspeedster.

Lastly, your argument about the moon was hilariously debunked.

The moon of Equestria is really tiny. Like, building sized. That means that this sentence:

So, Desak has multi-solar system TK, double the strength and durability of OF empowered thor, superspeed, ect. Desak will murderstomp CS if they fight.

Is very, very flawed. So, let's go.

1. Nothing Multi-Solar system there. In fact, the magic amp Twilight would give your team will only provide more fuel for Black Alice.

2. He would get double of nothing. As we have seen, as soon as Thor stopped using his energy blasts and used the Axe he oneshot killed Desak without much hardship. Same happened when he used Mjolnir in the later fight. Desak does not scale up to the combined powers of present gods, he just beats them because he is immune to their powers.

3. His Superspeed is not quite on the level of Superman who Hank actually Blitzed in combat.

XD, im sorry, but its just hilarious you actually used a scan from the witchcraft is magic fan series in debate! i mean come on, that show is obviously not meant for children.

1. debunked. Desak and twi both have TK powerful enough to move the solar system.

2. debunked above as well. Desak was only killed by thor because he is not immune to god weapons. desak does scale up to the combined power of present gods. if you are still confused about his powers head on over to the last round i linked above where i posted almost every fight he has ever been in and proved how his powers work.

3. his superspeed with the amp is definitely on supermans level as explained above.

BA gets lightspeed from the Perk, i cannot show her lightspeed feats since it only comes from the perk and there are no scans of her moving at that speed. She has drained enemies moving far faster than Desak however, and can move thousands of times faster than him thanks to the Perk.

i admit Thor and kratos get drained, however as explained a couple comments above your speed argument is flawed. both Desak and twi will have superman level speed after the amp.

After Draining Thor and Kratos, it is 2v2 and Twilight lacks the durability to tango with Hank or the THor+ Kratos + Alicorn + Lightspeed Black Alice.

actually it is 2v4 as both Twi and Desak are cloned. Twi doesnt have insane durability, however she doesnt need it as she is a wizard not a brawler. Twi (and her clone) will teleport around avoiding attacks while Desak (and his clone) brawls and destroys Hank and alice.

also, you seem to have forgotten that once BA steals thor and kratos powers Twi will immediately seal off her magic abilities making her powerless. this is an in-character ability that twi has used in a situation exactly like this. Alice will get killed and then the battle will be a 1v4 with poor hank getting either brutally murdered by Desak or mind melded/imagination imprisoned by Twi.

Black Alice easily drains your team. But true, i did not provide feats in the opener, i apologize, my bad. I will post quite a bit of feats at the end of this post, but for now, here he is easily stomping Eradicator + Supergirl + Steele + Superboy. Also, your team doesn't have the numbers advantage at all since Thor and Kratos will be useless.

nice feats, though not enough to beat one Desak amped by two odinforce enhanced thors, two twi's and two kratos, let alone two.

BA is immediately rendered useless by twi's magic ability sealing after she drains thor and kratos.

Team Work

The last info Desak got from Tarene (who is the Designate, as you know) was that he MUST KILL THOR AT ALL COSTS.

But Desak does not know that. He was already dead when that happened. The last info he had was that he MUST KILL THOR AT ALL COSTS

In fact, this is what Desak had to say to Thor:

And do you know what their next two pieces of interaction were?

Now, i get your point, you aim at the idea that the Designate will tell Desak to stand down here. But that would be Outside meddling in this scenario, and thus, not allowed.

nice job researching, however your wrong again. Desak is connected to and directed by the designates life force. the designate doesnt need to appear and order desak who to kill, she doesnt even need to tell him mentally, Desak is simply led by her as they are connected.

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here Desak confirms that the designate never appeared or spoke to him since he was first transformed, this proves Desak simply follows the designates desires and that she does not need to intervene. This shows Desak will not attack thor as the designate reconciled with him, therefore as Desak is led by his connection with the designate he will not attack thor.

I misspoke, yes, Kratos would work with Thor, but would he work with Desak? I highly doubt that, Desak murders gods, and Kratos Qualifies. You literally took a serial killer and put him in the team with two people who are his main target group. Desak would enjoy killing them even during prep. Teamwork is a big deal in tourneys, and your team doesn't have it.

Desak would grudgingly listen to thor as he would be led to do so by the designate, thus he wont attack my team. Desak listened to thor and left BRB and hercules alive in their first appearance, he will listen to thor here as well.

Final Mega-Counter

i already addressed a bunch of the counters in the prep sections, so i'll simply be focusing on what i havent countered i this section so i don't get repetitive.

Combat Strategy

Teleportation is not a speed feat and is really not an interchangeable term with speed.

instantaneous teleportation is very valid in combat. instantaneous teleport + superspeed > just superspeed.

Well, this was a MASSIVE leap of logic. There is a big difference between Twilight's accelero and Superman's speed. Not to mention that, when Twilight used the Accelero spell that you mentioned, she barely broke the sound barrier.

actually Accelero does give superman level speed as explained in the prep section.

as for your "barely broke the sound" barrier comment, that is very wrong. Rainbow dash is capable of dodging lightning after it is already moving:

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Accelero amp makes you far faster than RD, plus twi is already superfast as seen in the alicorn feat of flying from the moon to earth.

Also, you failed to show Desak's feats to ever put him at levels of "Dwarfing" Cyborg Superman. All you have here is Thor and Kratos for him to scale off. Neither are above CS. In fact, Thor is about Superman's level. And Kratos is waay below. So, even with the said scale, he is not "dwarfing" Hank in any way, shape or form.

by now you should get it, Desak has no set power level, he is as powrful as the gods around him and the energy he absorbs. Desak (and his clone) will have the power of OF enhanced thor x 2 (each equal to thanos), Twi x2 and kratos x2 as he will scale to the characters and their clones, plus Desak will have solar system + level TK after twi gives him alicorn powers. Desak after amping >>> Hank henshaw, unless you think hank could beat somebody at least two times as powerful as thanos.

FEAAATS OR GTFO!!!! First of all, Desak was never capable of oneshotting Thor. He was capable of maybe beating him, but never oneshotting. And Black Alice would have the powers of thor+ the powers of Kratos + the Alicorn amp (if she can't drain Twilight, she just drains the other members of your team) + the lightspeed perk.

after draining Desak doesnt oneshot BA true, however he is immune to her powers, will feed on them and is powerful enough to harm her and kill her.

Actually wait, desak does oneshot her as Twi will seal off her magic abilities depowering BA completely.

So far you have mostly just failed to show any good feats to explain how exactly Desak wins this clash.

Desak is not a character who can be argued with feats as his power level is never stable. Desak has no consistent feats, his power level changes depending on the gods he fights and the power he absorbs.

First of all, your Thor is not Odinforce empowered, that is outside help and Thor cannot just pull Odinforce out of his ass. As we have mentioned, he has never summoned OF gear. EVER.

debunked. odinforce empowered belt is the same as megingjord which thor has summoned and will summon in-character.

Hax

Not bad, but from what i have seen from following your links i can notice a couple of things, first, it is a beam attack, it would have to connect and it didn't seem too fast for my team.

Secondly, all transmuted living things seemed fine, which would mean Alice could transmute back (she holds Alicorn powers now too) or Cyborg could just move to a new body.

yes you could potentially dodge them, however since my team will be dog piling you with our massive numbers advantage you could be taken unawares.

I guess Alice could transmute back yes, however how is cyborg supes going to enter a new body? there are no other bodies just lying around for him to use.

Mind Meld and Mind Meld advanced

Both useless as my team has mind protection perk. Simplest counter ever.

actually, your mind resistance perk is useless against these abilities as they aren't TP, they are magic spells. you would need the magic resistance perk to make them useless which unfortunately, you do not have. Twi will be able to end the fight instantly with either of these spells and there is nothing your team can do against it.

Magic Draining:

It was never specifically shown that BA's draining is magical. But regardless of that, are you really going for a tug of war against her? Do you really believe she can outdrain someone who drained the Spectre? Also, once more, it was a magic blast type attack, easily dodged or blocked by Black Alice using Mjolnir.

Firstly, this ability is not draining, i specifically said it was magic sealing, very different and something BA cant counter. the spell seals of the targets ability to use their magic abilities, depowering them.

secondly, it was not a magic blast type attack, there is a clear difference. here are what magic blasts look like in mlp:

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they are very distinct and very different from Twi's magic sealing ability, which looks to function more like an instantaneous spell such as TK or Teleportation:

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notice the glowing of the horn as well as the aura around the object the magic is effecting. Twi's magic sealing is an instantaneous spell, BA cannot dodge it.

Cyborg Supes/Conclusions counter

echnopathy:

His healing factor and immortality both come back to this, he has complete control over machinery and can use it to repair any damage he sustains during combat. He is also basically truly immortal by "conventional" means. He even survived attacks that took out the Anti-Monitor. In the speed department you can see him reassembling instantly to destroy Doomsday so you can be sure that his "fixing" power is without match, however, this is the proof of his immortality and the reason i want 200 manhunters which he can summon at will (also have the scans to back it up should the need arise).

Very cool, however there is no technology here for Hank to control. the magic absorbers my team uses to gain alicorn abilities are useless after they are used and thus will be discarded and never make it on to the battle field. no one on my team uses tech so this power is basically useless.

as for the manhunters, you cant use them. i am on my final post and thus you cant go introducing new things i cant respond to. if you wanted to use them you should have shown scans and mentioned them throughout the debate so i could respond, instead you mentioned them only twice in passing and provided no scans of how powerful they are or how hank will even be able to summon them in battle.

As it stands now hank cant summon the manhunters as you never showed him doing so, also he doesnt have prep so he cant do it before the fight starts. Hank has one body, when its destroyed he is destroyed.

Also, even if you decide to scan dump in the last post and show hank assembling a new body from manhunters, Twi can still beat him easily by trapping him in her imagination or mind melding him, thus traping his consciousness and winning the fight by KO/Incap.

Prep - Well, if we conveniently forget the In-Character behavior rule, his prep would be valid, except for a couple of tiny details:

actually it is in-character for my team to do everything i have mentioned as proven in the prep section.

1. Thor never summoned the gear he wants to use under his own power. It was sent to him by Odin. (Outside Help)

debunked. the odinforce gear is the same gear thor has summoned before. it is in-character for thor to don his gear when he has time to prep and thus he will do so in this battle.

2. Desak would murder both Thor and Kratos during prep. Last known order for him was to kill Thor at all costs. Brony wants us to believe the Designate would stop him but that would be - Outside help

Desak follows the designates will subconciously as their life forces are connected, this has been proven in the comics. since the designate reconciled with thor and no longer considers him a threat neither will desak, in fact he will listen to thor as he did in the past.

3. Twilight never used the Accelero+Clone spells together. In fact, it was only done by Starlight who has proven to be better than twi as she was capable of handling twilight while Twi had her Alicorn powers (starlight is a lot weaker). Since she had a LOT less power and she stalemated Twi, it is safe to assume the difference is in the skill.

*facepalm* firstly, as shown in the first post Twi has the ability to perfectly replicate any magic she sees. starlight showed twi how to do the spell, therefore twi can use it. twi has both the skill and the power (more power than discord himself) to accomplish anything starlight can do a thousand fold.

secondly, Starlight glimmer is nowhere near as powerful as twi with the powers of the other alicorn princesses. starlight stalemated base alicorn twi who is infinitely weaker than the composite twi i am using, also there was context to this battle as starlight had prepped out the whole encounter and everything was slanted to her advantage.

thirdly, once again you take an MLP showing out of context. i very clearly explained the difference between twi amped with the magic's of celestia, luna and cadence vs base twi. twisting of context and using literal fanfiction in debates is not alright.

4. In fact, that combo of spells was never used on anybody but the caster.

all other spells in MLP are shown to work on other ponies as well as the caster, this spell is no different. also, twi not only is more powerful than anyone else, bar amped tirek, in the series but she can also create new magic as shown when she completed starswirls spell and became an alicorn. if the spell has shortcomings, twi can fix them.

5. Kratos never summoned hordes to fight for him. He wouldn't do so now.

he actually did summon the titans in prep, so its in-character for him now that he has the claws to summon an army with them. also, it was shown to be in-character for most all gods in GOW to summon legions of monsters.

6. He amps them by using technology made by twilight. Cyborg Superman uses the tech against them. As he usually does.

the magic absorbers are useless after the magic is absorbed, they will be discarded after use in whatever college my prep takes place and will never make it on to the battle field. there is not a single piece of tech for CS to manipulate.

Battle - He wants Thor and Kratos to block Hank for Desak while Desak fights Alice. It does have significant flaws.

1. They get de-powered and die.

i acknowledge they get depowered and die, however this works against you as this will anger Twi and provoke her to seal off BA's magic abilities, making her useless and easily killed.

2. Alice would have combined powers of Thor+Kratos+Alicorn amps + Lightspeed Perk, and thus easily capable of surviving till Thor and Kratos are dispatched.

BA will absorb their powers only to be immediately depowered by Twi and killed by desak.

3. Desak didn't show feats to prove that him absorbing blasts amps him that much. In fact, after absorbing a LOT of Odin Force (a lot more than his entire team could muster during prep) he was still out-sped by Thialfi, and murdered by Thor. If absorbing energy amped him as much as he claims, taking in that much should mean he should be capable of manhandling an already injured, and spent Thor. But no, he lost. And yes, i know the Axe of Skurge has enchantments, but if he was as impressive as you claim with the draining he should never allow Thor to land that hit.

debunked in this posts first section. Desak was amped immensely and did manhandle thor in both their encounters after absorbing his power, thor only killed him by using enchanted weapons which circumvent his immunity. once again, your twisting context.

secondly, i never claimed Desak's speed was amped by his energy absorption, so him being slower than thialfi (a legit super speedster) is nothing to be ashamed of and disproves nothing. Desak will be amped to superman level speed in this fight as well by twi's spell.

4. Feats. I have presented Hank's now, until i see better one's from you Desak loses his fight.

by now you should understand, Desak has no set power level, you cant debate him by feats as he has no consistent power level. Desak's power is always in flux, he is as powerful as the gods around him and the divine energy he absorbs. in this fight, as i explained above, Desak is going to be low skyfather level after scaling, absorbing and twi's amps. Desak is more powerful than hank.

5. With mountaintop durability Twilight wouldn't withstand a single blast from Hank or Black Alice.

good thing twi is an extremely versatile ranged fighter with instantaneous teleportation. also, twi has mountain level durability and so does her forcefield, so its actually multi-mountain durablity.

Of course, if we ignore the standard rules of ComicVine (in-character behavior and teamwork.) his team sounds great. But realistically, he made a horrible mistake in putting together characters who hate each other.

debunked extensively. my team has the power and the behavior to accomplish my prep and will also work together.

Final Summary

As this is the last post i will be doing i will be stating what i think will occur based on what has been shown, that means i wont adress the manhunters as no evidence has been shown that Hank can summon them in this neutral universe nor that he would do so mid-battle without prep. Now then here is how i think the battle would go:

How the battle would go

BA and Cyborg supes vs amped Desak x 2 OF enhanced thor x2, amped twilight sparkle x2, amped Kratos x 2 and 200 spirit gorgons

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the initial casualties will be thor and kratos or their clones, BA has the power to drain them however i am not sure if she can or will drain all 4 of them at once. she likely drains one or two of them.

Twi of course will notice BA draining her teammates/creations, this will anger Twi who will immediately resort to sealing off BA's magical abilities, thus making her absolutely powerless. BA is then easily killed by a Desak while the rest of my remaining team is fighting CS.

CS will now be fighting Desak x2, Twi x2 and an army of 200 spirit gorgons, also at this point one of the Thor's or Kratos may still be alive if Twi sealed off BA's magic abilities before she could drain them all. So, Cyborg Supes is now fighting two Desak's each amped to low skyfather level (scaled to 2 thor's on par with thanos, plus the rest of my team) who after Twi's amp also have alicorn magic and solar system+ level TK, along with Twi and her clone who have numerous hax and star level TK as well. from the feats my opponent has shown CS is a formiddable opponent, but he would still be outmatched by one of my desaks let alone two.

CS fights a losing battle, being shredded apart by adamantium blades and blasted to bits by desaks low-skyfather level energy projection. CS will also be crushed by TK and likely transmuted into a fruit by Twi. now, if somehow Hank is not transmuted and continues to regenerate from my teams attacks Twi will simply mind meld him or trap his consciousness in her imagination, automatically winning by incap/KO.

Reasons my team wins

  • Numbers: even if some of my teammates get killed i still have the numbers advantage.
  • Power: after prep my team dwarfs yours in fire power by a large margin. CS is powerful but he is not pushing skyfather level like desak will be after amps.
  • Versatility: my entire team after prep has TK, flight, teleportation, magic blasts that tear reality, ect along with the numerous hax abilities they already had.
  • Instant win: Twi will instantly depower BA once she tries anything and can also instantly incap/KO CS via her mental spells. even if your team is winning in the fight all Twi has to do is think and your team is immediately defeated, imprisoned in her imagination.

Final Word To Voters

this has been a super fun debate and i hope you all enjoy reading it as much as i did participating. Chime is an awesome and difficult opponent, however his last post showed his argument is chalk full of mistakes and based almost entirely on his misunderstanding of my characters context. In fact, Chime has barely even put forth an argument for his own characters, instead spending all his time trying to argue my context. i dont know how chime will respond in his final post, but he would do better in the future to focus on his own characters rather than trying to debunk his opponents, that way he wont end up posting literal fanfiction as an argument.

Vote for who you think debated better and have fun reading :D

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#39 Posted by deactivated-5a794b61068b8 (7203 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V.

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#40 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony: before i go on with my post. Mind Resistance Perk is not TP immunity. It makes your mind immune to any effects. This has been checked multiple times in this tournament as this is the fourth iteration.

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#41 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: its resistance to mental attacks and assaults, not magic.

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#42 Posted by KeybladeWielder (62 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#43 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31472 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: its resistance to mental attacks and assaults, not magic.

Those two aren't exactly mutually exclusive.

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#44 Posted by EmperorThanos- (16056 posts) - - Show Bio

@asgardianbrony:Any sort of mind attacks. regardless of whether it is magicla based or telepathic based will not affect those with the mind resistance perk.

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#45 Posted by EmperorThanos- (16056 posts) - - Show Bio
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#46 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio
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#47 Posted by Chimeroid (9235 posts) - - Show Bio

@emperorthanos: Sry for the weight, got married yesterday. Super hectic week. Should have my reply soon.

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#48 Posted by Vertigo- (17683 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by Sawed_Off_It (13228 posts) - - Show Bio
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#50 Edited by EmperorThanos- (16056 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: oh wow never mind take your time. And Congratulations.