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#1 Edited by emperorthanos- (16079 posts) - - Show Bio

This is the finals of the 3rd edition of my high tier pyp tourney.

@beatboks1

Characters:

  1. Brainwave jnr 3
  2. Animalman 3
  3. Dark nebula 5
  4. Occult 1
  5. Mr Terrific 1
  6. Midnighter 1
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perks

  • 2 extra character points x 2. 10 (2 × 5)
  • 2 hours prep at walmart 3
  • 2 × 1 hr prep 2 ( 2 × 1)

Versus

@chimeroid

Characters

  • Aquaman (with Waterhand) 3
  • Mera 1
  • Blue Energy Superman 3
  • Cyborg 1
  • Xavier 2
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Prep

  • 5 hours of prep anywhere
  • Flight - Aquaman
  • Adamantium weapons - Cyborg
  • Invisibility - Xavier

Rules

  1. Win by Death, Incap or KO.
  2. Standard Gear.
  3. No time manipulation.
  4. No speed steal
  5. No BFR.
  6. No reality warping
  7. No Summons stronger than 616 spider-man.
  8. Summons are limited to 200
  9. Cloning is limited to 50

Voting Rules:

  1. Vote for the better debater
  2. Do not vote on which character you think you will win
  3. Give reasoning to your vote.
  4. I will count the total votes
  5. If I feel a vote in unjustified or biased I will not count it.

Battle ground

Indestructible planet with no other people on it except for the fighters.

No Caption Provided

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#2 Posted by emperorthanos- (16079 posts) - - Show Bio
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#3 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17357 posts) - - Show Bio

This is so awesome! 5 of my favorite under rated heroes plus two great debaters backing them in one CaV? T4V for sure.

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#4 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11461 posts) - - Show Bio

The battle I've secretly been waiting for...

T4V

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#5 Posted by beatboks1 (9917 posts) - - Show Bio

Hope to get to this tonight or tomorrow.

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#6 Posted by The-Seeffiss17 (1753 posts) - - Show Bio

T4V

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#7 Edited by MyLittleFascist (31479 posts) - - Show Bio

If Beatbox wins, all 3 of our teams should be put in like a hall of fame type thing at the start of EmperorThanos's next High Tier PYP

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#8 Posted by beatboks1 (9917 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid

My prep so far in this tourney has been so Successful I'm going with the same again

Prep

Brainwave Jnr, Dr Occult, and Dark Nebula all being TPers mind link my team.

Mr Terrific and Dark Nebula

Using said mind link and Dark Nebula's TK ability that includes being able to manipulate matter at a molecular level. DN uses the resources throughout the Walmart to create another 10 T-spheres and 5 masks (2 for each of the rest of my team (to add to the 10 Terific already has). They will also be equipped with Doors courtesy of Midnighter. Holt will send 2 of his origianl T-Spheres to the 9th dimension where they will monitor "potential future outcomes and transmit the data to all T-speres on the battle field

Dr Occult

While this is happening Dr Occult will step outside time and watch the history of our opponents so that he is intimately familiar with them "as is his lot"

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The first three scans show how he knows so much about people he has JUST met (like in the 4th scan). As you can see from scan 1 and scan 3 he isn't actually traveling in time nor can he affect it (so it's not time manipulation, any more than someone with a crystal ball who can see and perceive things through it.

As such my team has intimate knowledge of their opposition this makes the nest step of prep ALL the more effective.

Occult will then use his disk that counters magic and undoes spells to craft an anti magic spell around each of my team to protect them from the magic of Aquaman's water hand. This will be limited as the hand is also ANTI magic.

Midnighter

Midnighter spends two WHOLE hours using his battle computer with the COMPLETE knowledge he has of our opponents and how they historically act in stress situations as well as the seen futures of how events unfold to backward plan every contingency of the battles vs every member of the opposing team. We now know before the battle has commenced every action that might lead to the smallest chance of defeat and every action that would lead to complete success. We also courtesy of the T-spheres in the 9th dimension can see how any strategies we take and can accurately accommodate any bad decisions. Due to TP link ALL my team have this knowledge. Each knows therefore who they are best situated to face and how they can defeat them.

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Even if there are only 5 ways to win he knows that, but he normally has 50 or more. Here with vastly more intimate knowledge to work with AND actually seen futures he and the rest of my team will know them all.

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Animalman

Prep for Buddy is very simply. First he makes 50 clones

Using the replication ability of a bacteria.

Then they start stacking animal powers to their limits. In this battle those powers will be a mix of Sonic powers, Electric powers, Telepathic powers (as he did when he took on Bwanna Beasts power but more likely from Proteans - from whom he will also take on shape shifting), regeneration powers of Worms etc, hyper senses of every type, chameleon and stealth powers,

Here during rot world he stacked the meager speed of Ants and cockroaches to match a weakened Flash.

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so the NUMBER of animals he can stack when he pushes his limit is incredibly vast.

Brainwave

Using the mind link with Mr Terrific Brainwave uses his TK (and when DN's finished he assists) to build from components of electrical equipment in the Walmart a Brain Drain apparatus like that of his fathers. One that can drain mental energy from his opponents and feed it to him to enhance his already formidable mental powers.

He then uses his ability to create mental 3d constructs to create 200 spiderman level lackies to fight for him.

Results of Prep

I enter the battle with

  1. Complete knowledge of my adversaries and how they act and react in battle.
  2. Formulated plans backward worked with the hax battle computer of Mignighter combined with seeing future events to be 100% successful
  3. 20 T-shperes 18 on the battlefield and 2 watching alternate futures. Allowing Midnighter to alter any plans that might somehow change before they are even enacted
  4. some protection from the anti magic of Aquaman's water hand.
  5. 51 multi powered combatants that will be high meta low herald level.
  6. 200 Spidey level combatants as fodder to throw at my adversary
  7. An apparatus that can drain their mental energies and use it to feed the power of my own mental giants

Start of battle

Battle begins and Occult instantly effects a force field around my team for protection using his disk. A FF that would draw on any energy used against it to both power it and redirect it back at its source.

Using Doors the 50 Buddy clones are ported to within feet of your team. 25 engage Blue Superamn the rest engage Aquaman

BW's 200 3 D constructs engage Aquaman also, while DN aids the other 25 against Blue Superman.

the aim of the combined assault on Aq will be to make him angry and use his hand with his darker emotions. Why I hear you ask well because doing so will remove the water hand from the eqation

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The hand is the greatest threat to my team. It and it alone can potentially nullify Occult. I say potentially because both the hand and Occult's disk operate on an antithesis of magic and completely counter it. If anything can counter Occult's disk the water hand is one of the few. Fortunately Arthur has a vast history of reacting in anger and Occult will know that after prep. Midnighter will have planed for it and BW's mental constructs will be specifically geared to piss Arthur off.

This leaves me with Occult to handle Xavier, and the real Am, Terrific, and Midnighter to take on Cyborg. Occult's disk has returned Psionic attacks back on the perpetrator before so an easy shut out of Xavier. I also don't see Cyborg lasting long against these three.

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#9 Posted by Chimeroid (9237 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Cannot promise a prompt response. I work a lot these days and in Serbia New Years is what Christmas is to the most of the West so i doubt i will have time this year.

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#10 Posted by emperorthanos- (16079 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Bump. when do you think you will be able to post?

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#11 Edited by Chimeroid (9237 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1:Hey there, sorry for the wait. It is really crazy here so, unfortunately, my opener will be a bit smaller (i assume you guys already know i tend to make huge ass openers).

My team capabilities:

I would like to refer all of the readers to my previous debates if they do not know what my team is capable of, in fact simply follow the link to this post - http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/2016-high-tier-pyp-tourney-3rd-hypnos0929-vs-chime-1830193/?page=1#js-message-17478626 for a full overview of my team.

Now, since that is out of the way, let's talk particulars.

My Prep:

I will keep this simple, as you have seen in the previous round Xavier can easily make a team within moments by using his mind trick to have them experience months of training in an hour, however, i am not looking for months but rather days since that would be enough (bearing in mind most of my teammembers already have good teamwork due to shared history) and to spend only minutes of my prep on creating plans and working on teamwork.

After that Xavier will create Psy shields for my team and mind link them.

The team will use Cyborg's Boom Tube Tech to open portals. Using those portals they will:

Summon 200 of assorted (New 52) Atlantean Soldiers armed with rifles that harmed Wonder Woman and shot clean through Arthur.

Bring the Armor that Aquaman used to stomp the Imperiex Probe that attacked Atlantis (one of very rare instances Arthur had prep time in comics).

Since i can't judge the amount of water on the indestructable planet we are fighting on they will leave the boom tubes open to flood the battlefield providing Mera with water she needs to wield her abilities to her fullest potential (and Aquaman by using his Water Hand)

And never forget that i have my own Discount Midnighter in Cyborg who can do a similar thing http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111219076/5448513-5371818272-51509.jpg

Lastly, Superman and Cyborg will work on making Sure Prof X is safe from any aoe damage that could happen by erecting shields around him.

Your Future Sight with T-Spheres:

Hate to be a nitpick, but i would love to see that in a scan or two as i haven't got a slightest idea how it works and have not yet found the scans, what i HAVE found, however, is the scan of Mr T. being in the probability matrix and seeing random flashes of past and future, but he had no control over it and was kicked out of the matrix once tried to see more. To be clear, i am not saying you don't have it, i simply want to see it in action so that we can know how it works.

Dark Nebula creating T-Spheres:

The only feat of Dark Nebula altering on molecular levels i have seen is him basically welding a collapsing bridge together that feat shows nowhere near the precision needed to create a sophisticated piece of super technology from cash registers and microwaves from a wallmart. Not to mention you are very time limited and one would really need to show speed feats necessary to created such technology within hours.

Dr Occult knowledge:

You will simply have to show more, Dr Occult knowing about Fate is expected since they are both mystics in the DC world, and i expect him to have solid knowledge of the most of my team, but nowhere near detailed enough to make a 100% foolproof plan. Furthermore, while, yes, looking into the future is not time manipulation stepping outside of time to stretch your 4 hours of prep - is. And i am pretty sure he would have to stretch it to get intimate knowledge of all 5 of my characters in time. First two scans don't show his special knowledge but simply showcase his ability to time travel as a watcher but not a participant and view history that way.

Either way, you will need a bit better showings for the plan you want to execute.

Midnighter:

I am well aware of what he can do, in fact i try to "snipe" Midnighter for every tourney myself, however, i simply never seem to be the first to get him. However, please be reminded that the Battle Computer is not infallible and he has lost fights on more than one occasion.

For instance, he lost horribly in Midnighter 17 because he simply did not know about the toxin that was being used against him (scan here), or, more recently, his Battle Computer kinda failed him against Grayson, also, he lost to Martian Manhunter and they worked together for a while so Midgnighter basically had full knowledge, while it is understandable that Lukas hasn't got a chance vs J'onn, my point is that he indeed can lose if there is simply not enough of a chance for him to win.

Not to mention the inconvenience that could come his way if Cyborg was to hack his system like he did the Motherboxes except he wouldn't have to do anything since all he would need to do is "read" the battle computer.

And last, but definitely not least, mind reading trumps his battle computer HARD, like Regis has proven:

No Caption Provided

There is more to say about this, but i feel there should be no need just yet.

Animal Man:

Ah, the unfortunate repeat of our previous debate. While Buddy is a solid Mid Tier character his stacking simply does not take him to the levels needed to take out the likes of my team. While, yes, he was capable to stack up enough animals to gain on flash moving at less than half of his speed there are also things to be considered:

1. His body couldn't take it. He overused his powers and was falling apart because of it. Literally bleeding out of his facial orifices.

2. He didn't use any other powers, just speed. So, even if he would make 50 clones, i sincerely doubt all 50 clones could stack up enough power for what you suggest. In fact, we haven't seen that his clones have his avatar of red powers at all.

Brainwave:

Oh come on... You have 4 hours. You can't simply have everyone in your team make every piece of technology they ever created in a moment. Show me how they can do it. Show me feats that would prove that your team can make all of that with resources from Wallmart within 2 hours of prep there and 2 hours of prep on the battlefield. Because this is not like making Lego towers. It is creating super sophisticated technology and is a high feat indeed to make something like a Psionic energy drainer from materials found at Wallmart within the very short time frame you are given.

Even more so, do Mr T and Jr actually know how to build that apparatus or do you propose they will invent it in the couple of hours they have?

Debating the results of your prep:

Your claims will be in quotes

"Complete knowledge of my adversaries and how they act and react in battle."

As i have said, will need more proof of that, you have very little time and i have five members Dr Occult needs to investigate entirely in order to make that claim. Not to mention a lot of knowledge about Superman would be useless as this is a very specific version of him.

"Formulated plans backward worked with the hax battle computer of Mignighter combined with seeing future events to be 100% successful"

It is kinda hax, but let's not push it, it is not a 100% success as i have already proven. Your team is still pretty much outclassed by mine, and, unlike some other teams, mine also covers all the bases of Tech, TP, Energy manipulation and magic. I also would not mind some scans of Midnighter coordinating a team to perfection rather than just using his battle computer for himself.

"20 T-shperes 18 on the battlefield and 2 watching alternate futures. Allowing Midnighter to alter any plans that might somehow change before they are even enacted"

As already requested, proof that you can create that many, proof that you can selectively look at future, any feats where he actually uses them to prep for battle and lastly, i WILL argue that stepping outside of time is indeed time manipulation both for your T-Spheres and Occult.

"some protection from the anti magic of Aquaman's water hand."

Can't argue with that one, but i will tell you that i do not plan on using magic aggressively, anti magic is simply to protect my team from random stuff that happened in so far in the tourney.

"51 multi powered combatants that will be high meta low herald level."

Yeah.... Nope. Not buying it. And i doubt anyone else will buy that Animal Man is a herald tier hero. He is simply not. He is a solid Mid Tier and he caps at that level. And, as already mentioned, his clones didn't show his abilities at all (to my knowledge).

"200 Spidey level combatants as fodder to throw at my adversary"

Easily outmatched by 200 Atlantean soldiers who, while being individually inferior to Spider Man have trained as a unit, know how to work together and have weapons that can make short work of most of your team.

(should be important to mention that you only have 2 out of 6 characters with notable durability feats and only one with durability arguably superior to New 52 Aquaman's and we know that atlantean rifles shoot clean through his body)

"An apparatus that can drain their mental energies and use it to feed the power of my own mental giants"

As i have said, you really need to prove that one, a piece of gear that belonged to the father of one of your characters that you want to create in very short time with VERY limited resources. Definitely going to need proof you can do it.

Battle Considerations:

First of all, i would like to address the claims from your post.

Nullifying the Water hand:

That would be a good idea where it not for a fact that Aquaman has already defeated the Thirst and used the Water Hand aggressively with no ill effect. But that would not matter as i would have no need for it to be used that way, Aquaman would be wearing his armor and using his trident to attack you, the water hand would be used as a healing tool if any of my team members take any damage as it can completely heal anyone as long as they are not dead.

Occult returning Psionic attacks:

I will need a showing for that as well. Since i fully expect that you will choose to show the one where Linda Danvers attempts attacks him while they were in hell and he made her see herself for what she has become. She did not use any psionic attacks on him, she was about to attack him physically, or better out - fry him with flaming vision like she did those demons in the previous panels..

MY TURN:

Your team is slower and lacks real Durability, and while hiding behind Dr Occults shields is a decent idea in and of itself it really does not have a consisted record of stopping non magical attacks like Cyborg's blast, or 200 shots per round of my soldiers. Or even Aquaman Charging in to your team with his armor and the trident.

Cyborg and Holt is a stalemate match that can go either way, T-Spheres might be a bit better as tech goes than Cyborg's body, but Holt is human and suffers human limitations of being easily knocked out by attacks while Cyborg is incredibly durable and could take a lot more punishment than Holt.

Prof X vs Brainwave JR is a good fight, but the one that Xavier would ultimately take. Regarding TP this is literally an instance of "everything you can do - I can do better". With Xavier simply having better TP feats all around.

For all the planing Midnighter can make he has no reply to being drained out by Mera or Slammed around by her Water Constructs that have mountain busting feats.

That leaves DN, Occult, Buddy and 250 fodder vs Aquaman, Superman and 200 fodder soldiers.

Unfortunately, for you Occult simply does not have durability feats to survive this battle should he choose to not retreat to a safe distance, grenades and rifle shots from my soldiers would make short work of him and most of your fodder units.

Aquaman would take out Buddy, any TP Buddy would muster by using B'wanna Beast powers is already outclassed by Arthurs, any feats of durability and strength are really nothing in comparison and lastly, his speed is great, but without the damage output to put a dent on Arthur he would fall apart before he would get to beating him.

That leaves DN vs Blue Superman (i feel at this point that i should clarify that this is not the only way the fight will go, but rather only on interpretation suitable for an opener). Actually, i see DN being able to edge out in this fight for a slight majority, but a good thing is that i do not need Superman to beat him since the rest of my team would be doing really well against your's and would join in to help him.

With this i will end my post and push the ball back to your side of the court. Thank you very much for your patience in regards to my response and have a lovely day.

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#14 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17357 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Try using Microsoft Word, just format your argument in V.

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#15 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31479 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by beatboks1 (9917 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: I would but you can't load images and put links to words (which I'd done in droves to answer the questions)

@zetsumoto: It's now done it in both Chrome and Firefox (which was what I used the second time ). I suppose I could try opera (I have that too) but NO WAY am I using explorer (hate that browser).

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#17 Edited by Chimeroid (9237 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Dude, it's time to get a new PC for you. :D i mean i really feel bad every time you lose your work because of it.

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#18 Posted by beatboks1 (9917 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

attempt 3 Swapping over to my laptop. bit painfull as all my scans are on the desktop, but file sharing is enabled so it should only take a little longer

T-Spheres, future sight, battle computer

Making T-Spheres

So you big issue is my making the T-spheres. Not sure why since really I can accomplish everything I want with items actually sold by Walmart in seconds. Walmart sells a lot more than just cahs registers and microwaves. It sells Ipads/Tablets/computers. They also sell Drones. I could have had DN wield ipads onto Drones to use as a transmitting interface to send what the cameras can see. I have two hours at Walmart, Using Holt TP linked genius to make a device that is somewhat more sophisticated than an Ipad wielded to a drone would not be hard and I have plenty of time to accomplish it. If it weren't possible then I would make simple modifications between the two and make many hundreds of Drone devices capable of accomplishing everything I have set out to do with the T-spheres. What this wouldmean is quite a few more watched alternative futures.

Quite frankly I could have just summoned the T-spheres

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I just thought I'd make some creative use of the rest of my team.

Future sight

I'm not referring to the probability matrix. I'm referring to the 9th dimension the place that allowed Terry Sloane to single handedly defeat a team more powerful than yours

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In issue 0 of Earth 2 Sloane was able to defeat a team consisting or Earth 2 versions of Superman, Wonder Woman Supergirl, Batman and Robin. He accomplished this with the same random futures seen, without a Battle computer than can further refine his strategies, without any of the array of powers possessed by my team. he also did this without other devices watching these futures for him. In my scenario I have the 6 original T-Spheres we were supposed to get with Holt, plus the other 20 sub par ones I've made watching alternate futures for a couple of hours and transmitting what they've seen to Midnighter]s battle computer to process.

Which brings us to

Battle computer

Of Course midnighter looses from time to time, which means his battle computer made an error (or he did). However please show me when he has done that when

  1. He had complete knowledge of the the actions and reactions of his adversaries having watched all their history die to a mind link
  2. had multiple sophisticated scanning devices feeding him information he would not normally receive via Mid's implants
  3. had the actual view of hundreds of alternate futures that would have actually shown the errors he made allowing him to correct them

The fact is that the prep I have done has improved the reliability and accuracy of the battle computer by a huge range.

Doctor Occult Knowledge

Let me get this straight. Occult is supposed to have intimate knowledge of Jarred Stephens who has JUST assumed the role of Fate even though other "higher level" mystics in the DCU don't???

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The whole reason that Alan Scot called the sentinels of magic and the conclave together was because he believed Jarred unworthy of the artifacts of Fate. None of the conclave had a clue about Jarred but Occult did in an instant.

Occult's knowledge is so well respected that Fate was considered a threat if Occult was teaching him when he wasn't even a concern prior

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That's Amethyst a Lord of Order. Even she didn't know much about Fate Certainly not intimate knowledge of his life even before obtaining the power.

There is also the fact that Occult has been shown to know things about what has transpired EVEN when those who are nigh Omniscient (like Phantom Stranger ) don't

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The first scan is from Trench coat brigade. In it Occult knew things about the history of the man they had just met that even Phantom Stranger (Nigh omniscience) and Mr E ( future sight -seen all that is to come) don't. In the second scan from Books of Magic where he talks about his "sources" that always allow him to know what has happened. The fact is Occult is always the one of the trench coat brigade who knows the past and not the future. Stranger sees the now and E sees what is to come.

He also threatened someone as powerful as Alan Scot with the knowledge he could gain if he "wanted to"

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Occult has been shown consistently being the guy who just knows what he needs to about a person's history. He has never been shown to know or see the future and only randomly shown to have a spidey like danger sense (at best) about the present. I'll be honest and say it's just my opinion that he does this by stepping out of time and watching the history of someone. It's my opinion because it makes sense, he's been shown able to do that and the fact that he only ever knows about what has happened not happening or about to fits with it.

Occult's defenses

Here is the feat you mention. Linda Danvers was not going to attack him "physically" and frankly I'd like to know how she even could. Given that she has NO physical powers and ALL her powers are Psionic in nature, she simply isn't capable of a "physical attack".

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Notice how in the first panel of the second page we learn that she fell because she saw herself AND that occult simply reflected the attack she was using against him. So how does a non psionic attack when deflected make one see one self ??? The answer is, it doesn't. Linda Danvers angel fire is a psionic attack and always was.

LOL at Occult's shields not protecting my team from your attacks.

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The first scan is the blast that his second scan shielded him from. He was literally beneath the blast and neither the blast nor the falling rubble damage him. The blast was able to destroy the cage in hell containing Lobo that even he could not. So to put it into perspective it withstood an attack of greater ferocity and destructive power than even Lobo can make. No one on your team is capable of anything above that.

Now I'll grant that against a purely brick character Occult's shields wouldn't be much good. In All Star Squadron 36 (or so) he was easily dispatched by a robot built by Wotan with 40's tech. His shields are literally only as strong as the energy he can drain with his disk. On this battle field he has Dark Nebula, Blue Superman, Brainwave Jnr, Xavier and Aquaman's water hand to draw power from. I'd expect those shields to be pretty damn strong.

As far as Occult's personal durability is concerned, I think your forgetting that one of his powers is Intangeability.

Animal man

So animal man is only mid tier hunh

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That's animal man taking on the power of a sun eater. For those who don't know a sun eater is an entity that has had the entire Legion of Superheroes on the back foo. That is a team with 50 members and several Superman level members.

Then we have this

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I wasn't aware that being 1/3 the power of Universal creation was a mid tier feat. Creating all life in an entirely new universe isn't mid tier. This is the level of power that Animal man taps into.

In issue 49 he is referred to as having "the vastness of the life energy"

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The power shared b y the animal avitars is that of all life energy. Obviously this isn't ALL Buddy's as there are others like Vixen, Bwanna Beast, Little wing Tristess and others etc who also draw on the red.

The argument I always see to counter Am's stacking is that he struggled in Rot World. Of course he struggled he had to use animals that didn't have what he needed. A cockroach for example we can assess as only 3.4 mph fast or if we take the other way 50 body lengths per second in speed. Since AM is 1.8 meters tall that would mean that to achieve half light speed he stacked about 3.4 million cockroaches to achieve the feat. Had he been able to tap into the speed of a Falcon that move at 180 body lengths a second then he could have been twice as fast (light speed) using half as many animals and no strain on him.

So based on this we know that stacking the powers of 3.4 million animals is pretty much his limit. I would say each of the 51 animalmen get on;y their share of that capability. Each one therefore has the power to stack 66 and 2/3 thousand animals from anywhere in the DC universe. Let's say a few stack on 1 thousand t-rex for strength and durability, 1 thousand cheetahs for speed, 1 thousand worms for regeneration, 1 thousand electric eels for energy strike, 1 thousand pistol shrimp for sonic blasts of very high order, 1 Thousand dung beatles for durability.

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I still have over 60 thousand animals (60,300 ish) to stack before i reach the limit AND that is before we even step off world to source

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Going off world allows me to take on the shape changing powers of a Protean (Proty was Chameleon buy for the 30th centuries LoSH pet and it's race wasn't declared sentient until the 4th run of LoSH when Proty II came along) and much much more.

So each Buddy can easily have physicals that match Aquaman, energy powers, sonic powers, Mass manipulation, Breath that puts to sleep, and durability that matches the best here without getting anywhere near the limits the character has displayed.

If that is mid tier than your definition and mine vary greatly

Brainwave

Ok so first off the bat the breain drain apparatus of BW Snr was built in 1940. The technology available at the time was so far below what could be found in a modern Ipad it's beyond belief. Hank's father's psychie is is inside hank.

I could have had Hank use his TK and his father's knowledge to make other of his fathers devices like his shrink ray (made from large diodes) and his special glass box that returns any force used against it by two.

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Or for that matter since Both Holt and Occult can dimensionally travel they could just go and get them.

In extreme Justice it fought Maxima on the astral plane and she had to convince Hank to fight it for her to win.

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You say that Brainwaves 3 D constructs would be nothing to the Atlanteans but they were enough to take on Capt Atom Firestorm, Booster Gold et all

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It was discovered after EJ 18 that the villains they fought here that they believed had not been killed or escaped goal were all still incarcerated or dead and that they fought BW constructs.

You say that Xavier has a better feat than Hank in every category. But I've not seen Xavier even once show mental energy attacks that destroy energy

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Or TK, levitation, mental force fields

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Hank has a whole other set of skills and abilities that Xavier doesn't. Since his mental blasts can shatter the constructs of both Alan Scot and Kyle Raynor, I wouldn't put to much faith into blue Superman shielding

Your errors

  1. Occult's shields have held up against Spectre and blasts that destroyed Lobo's cell in hell. If there wasn't that level of energy around for them to draw on they wouldn't but there is in abundance with who is on the field. so he can take greater attacks than almost anyone here.
  2. Hank like wise has TK that can shield him and since his mental energy out puts can shatter GL constructs it's NOT low level. His durability is also high when using this for defense.
  3. Your mistaken if you think Buddy can;t match Arthur physically.He need only use a few dinosaurs to achieve this and he has done so before
  4. The time he created duplicates his duplicates were creating more while he left the room so they displayed his power
  5. You've forgotten about the fact that Holt has faced a high level Tper and used his T-Spheres to shut him down
  6. like to also point out that you've wasted time debating red herring points. Where in my debate have I in any single round actually brought the brain drain apparatus to bare??
  7. Viewing the past or the future is not time manipulation. manipulation by definition is to control or influence something. Occult has no control or influence over what happens in the past that he sees, it staed so on panel in the scans I used to show that ability. If the future sight were the one defined and unbreakable future than it might be but it's not it is simply future possibilities. Possibilities that improve the accuracy of the battle computer because they give it information it would not have had.
  8. After defeating the Thirst Arthur actually rarely used the water hand at all for anything other than healing. So their is nothing to state that using it that way again wouldn't cause problems.

you brought 2 telepaths to the battle I brought 3 (4 if you count AM). none of mine are the exact equal of your best but DN and BW are close (and above in some categories and two of my three are above Aq I also have another guy who defeated TP with tech

three of my team are also capable of teleportaion/ dimensional travel compared to only Cyborg and AQ on your team

you have one high level energy manipulator as do I. The fact that you believe DN would edge Blue Supe's outr means you concede he is slightly higher

Aquaman isn't easily taking out a single AM as you believe UNLESS he uses that damn water hand in battle. then he would. that's why I'm sending so much against him.

Mera honestly isn't much of a threat. Terrific can take her down like he did Capt Nazi with the T-spheres (which has the added advantage of pissing of Arthur and making him fight in anger with that hand) or BW could TK her out of it or brain blast her out of it.

The battle isn't coming down to the low numbers on my side at all let alone quickly enough for the rest of your team to team up on DN

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#22 Edited by Chimeroid (9237 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1:

Round 2

Admirable reply, but you definitely rely too much on assumptions. So let's start.

Making T-Spheres

Not gonna argue a lot about this one. Just gonna state one thing - There is a big leap of logic between Tablets glued to Drones and the impossible tech of the T-Sphere. But, if you were going to summon them, then it would be much better to just do that. Also, i would like to quote your exact sentence from our previous tournament.

See the thing is you didnt summon a father box or ancestor box in your prep you specified a mother box. You've already committed to the actions you took in prep, its done. As DS scorns the MB it's completely out of character for him to use one.

I don't mind you summoning them, but simply to remind you of your own attitude towards the changes in prep after the fight starts.

Future Sight:

Now this one has a lot of issues. The first one, that really POPS up at me and hopefully the voters, is that Terry Sloan is not Mr Terrific. I see that as a big issue for your claim. You are using feats of someone else. Someone, who is hailed as the most intelligent person of that Earth. Not to mention, he did not beat them as you say. He let them fight the united forces of the GODDAMN DARKSEID and tricked them. The only one he actually faced was Batman.

So, to ask once more, please show me feats of Michael Holt (Mr. Terrific) predicting all possible outcomes during preparation for a battle.

The "Occult" Knowledge:

Don't get me wrong, Doc Oc has a lot of knowledge. But not full knowledge. At this point you are literally claiming Omniscience for one of your characters that has nothing of the sort. It was not explained to us how he knew about Jared. Could be he looked into the future before hand, could be he stepped outside of time at the moment he realized he should go and meet Jared so that he can have some knowledge on him. But that showing does not show omniscience and definitely does not show full knowledge of characters i am pretty sure Dr Occult never met (like Mera, Cyborg (N52) and especially Prof X).

In fact your showing with Alan Scott shows that Occult does not have full passive knowledge as he says he would need to "Rummage Around" the past of the Lantern thus proving he does not already hold said knowledge. Simply put, he does not have full knowledge on my team unless you prove it with a direct scan.

Why stepping outside of time is banned by this tourney:

The rules are quite clear you have 4 hours of SUBJECTIVE time. That means that Occult cannot slow down time when he looks into the future, he has 4 hours to learn as much as possible with his power and in the scan with Superman that you have shown it is quite clear it takes quite a bit of subjective time per person for him to find out everything. Not to mention i very much doubt he could divine about a Marvel character in my team. I dont at all mind you taking a look into the future.

ONE MORE THING: How would Occult know who he should get knowledge on? This is very important. He would first have to spend time to find out who his opponents are., further limiting his time for research. And both Occult and Holt would completely miss the presence of Xavier as he is invisible for the fight as i have taken that perk. So, even if the far fetched plan worked. You would still miss a link. That would cost you a lot as your team would be overconfident and have a battle plan that would not work as intended.

The Battle Computer:

The battle computer has failed him multiple times before and it could always fail him again, when 200 Atlantean soldiers are firing upon your team it could get really, really difficult finding all the safe spaces to survive the barrage. Yes, you can attempt to hide behind shields and hope that they can protect you from various forms of attacks that my team send out but there is simply too little for a lot of your squishy team members to do in a scenario where projectiles and attacks are flying everywhere. Not to mention unavoidable attacks, like Xavier's telepathy, Aquaman's tp and his Seizure inductions, Huge Waves of water hitting your team, Mera Draining your team members and Cyborg using bullets to hit you.

Occult Defenses against TP (the Linda Danvers counters):

First of all, Linda does not have Telepathic attacks, what she uses is Holy Flames as an attack. Yes, they can be very versatile and even protect her from tp BUT, she still has no Telepathic attacks. What she was going to do to Occult is actually written in the scan you wanted to use. Let me help you with that:

I will see you burned to char.
I will see you burned to char.

Now, this argument is further strengthened by the fact that she used the same attack on the previous page. Wanna see what it was?

No Caption Provided

As you can see, what she used was a flaming attack. She realized what she was doing and lost it mentally. It was not TP that got her crazy and running away, it was the simple realization that she became one of the demons instead of remaining an angel.

Occult's Defenses:

Now that this is out of the way, let's focus on what his amulet actually does.

To avoid making a drawn out post i will post a link to the wiki page of it - http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Mystic_Symbol_of_the_Seven

The thing about it is, it can repel any and all mystical attacks regardless of the power, but it does not protect him from everything physical. For instance, while it could protect him from bullets or some random falling debris it would not hold against a huge amount of crushing water coming against your team controlled by the combined forces of Mera and Aquaman. Not to mention, as you yourself have noted, Aquaman's water hand could negate the magic of your shields and they could, potentially be set back to status Quo.

Animal Man:

Oh come on. Why do this again. Animal man is a mid tier and out of context zero feat scans cannot suddenly change him into a herald tier character.

I will make a separate paragraph to counter all the silly scans you used in this part, but first i will focus on his "tier". Ok, you cited Animal Man issue 12 to show that he created hundreds of clones. I have to ask, if he is a herald tier levels, why did those Hundreds of clones not kick ass there? I mean his opponents were all street tiers who actually use regular guns for God's sake.

In fact, IIRC, he was almost completely killed by being hit by a truck. In Animal Man 51. Here is the link to the image (be warned, it is fairly graphic)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SmxZ5h88n9o/VjrjqiROKrI/AAAAAAAANP4/_BkgWvS8_XE/s1600-Ic42/Animal%252520Man%252520%2525281988-1995%252529%252520051-024.jpg

I mean, you claim he can be as strong as Aquaman, but you offer no !!FEATS!!that even put him in the ballpark of someone who can lift tens of thousands of tons. SO, if you want to claim him to be as strong as Aquaman you really need feats for that claim. Because, to my knowledge, he has none.

Countering your specific High end claims:

I would like to remind you, and show to our voters, that you and i have already had this argument. In the first iteration of this tourney i have already proven that you like to reach too much and try to turn Buddy into something he is not. Here is the link to it http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/high-tier-pyp-tourney-chimerod-vs-beatboks1-open-f-1761909/

Unfortunately, i will have to repeat my self for this debate.

Sun Eaters:

And, back to feats. He has absorbed the powers of them, but only the homing abilities and the star maps. He didn't show any feats anywhere near their levels of power not in that issue, not in the rest of the 52 issues of that run and never before or after that run. The only thing you can claim from that scan is what that scan is showing us. he can travel through space and not get lost .That is it.

Universal silliness you claim:

Come on, he did not create a universe under his power. It was a plot point of the story. He is not universal. Vixen is not universal. What they did was reintroduce the M-field through their powers to the universe. Which literally has ZERO impact on their combat abilities. Whether you like it or not. Animal man is a mid tier character. And not even especially high up in the mid tier.

Fan Calculations:

Now you just went full DBZ fan right here. While i do praise your skills in algebra, i see nothing of actual consequence to this battle in your big math part. It is rather simple. Feats or bust.

The reasons your calcs fail are multiple.

1. It is not a Light speed feat. You want to do math but we do not have the speed at which he was moving. He caught up to an unsuspecting Flash who was moving under Half of his usual speed and killing people around. He was not running away from Buddy and he was not running in a straight line. So, your first baseline is wrong.

2. You assume he can stack the same amount of powerful creatures as he can bugs. There is no reason to believe that. You are worshiping him too much to notice that you are over blowing it.

You lost the last time you used Buddy against me because everybody else notice that you are biting into the Non Limit Fallacy, but you thought you did not. He simply does not have the feats to support your claims.

His best strength and durability feats simply don't reach the heights needed to actually hang with Arthur at all. Not to mention that Arthur in this Specific armor clearly stomped an Imperiex probe.

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And, as i have already explained this, each Imperiex probe is almost at a teambuster level proving that this armor is definitely very impressive. Unfortunately, we do not get to see if it would protect Arthur from the explosion because Garth transported him with the rest of Atlantis before the explosion went off. But we can see that the armor was not damaged at all.

So my point pretty much stands. Animal Man<<<<<< Aquaman. Fan calculations are useless and you should stick to feats if you want to make claims that Animal Man is a herald tier...

Brainwave vs Xavier:

He is a seriously powerful telepath. But Xavier is just leagues above him. Not by a little. And let's first clear up an obvious misunderstanding.

You say that Xavier has a better feat than Hank in every category. But I've not seen Xavier even once show mental energy attacks that destroy energy

Not what i said. In fact i quite clearly stressed that i was talking about TELEPATHY ONLY. Here is the direct quote: "Regarding TP this is literally an instance of "everything you can do - I can do better". With Xavier simply having better TP feats all around."

So your counter is a simple swing and a miss due to the misunderstanding. Then you go on debating about TK, energy attacks, levitation and what-nots. What i claimed, and i still do is that Xavier can overpower BWJR's mind.

I mean he took down a lot of powerful opponents

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Instantly TP knocks out Rachel Summers, Phoenix Force Namor, Thor and many others with but a gesture. And it's worth noting he let her attack first.

Also, later on he straight out stomps Half the Phoenix Force (it was in Cyclops). And, for good measure i will add his Billion minds feat in an attempt to stop Galactus.

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All of this greatly surpasses BWJR. Not in a way that would suggest Xavier would walk over him. But more in a way that would suggest that Xavier would take this battle once it came down to it.

Constructs vs Army:

There is one big mistake in your logic right there. First let's quote for the voters:

You say that Brainwaves 3 D constructs would be nothing to the Atlanteans but they were enough to take on Capt Atom Firestorm, Booster Gold et all

You are forgetting the "No summon stronger than Spiderman" rule. Capt Atom can easily solo 200 Spiderman, that definitely proves that those constructs are out of the rules.

After that i will assume your summons will be limited, and they would individually be pretty close to 1v1 being equal to my Soldiers. Don't forget an average Atlantean can still survive on the bottom of the ocean and is a 2-3 tonner. Proven by Vulko slamming away Superman:

And don't forget, Vulko is not a fighter, he is a council member.
And don't forget, Vulko is not a fighter, he is a council member.

But it will not be a series of 1v1. It will be an organised army of atlanteans vs whatever BWJR summons. Plotuns of shots will make short work of them.

What you incorrectly called my errors:

Occult's shields have held up against Spectre and blasts that destroyed Lobo's cell in hell. If there wasn't that level of energy around for them to draw on they wouldn't but there is in abundance with who is on the field. so he can take greater attacks than almost anyone here.

His shields reflect mystical attacks. They would do nothing to protect him from Telepathy, seizures, tsunamis and possibly even physical projectiles.

Hank like wise has TK that can shield him and since his mental energy out puts can shatter GL constructs it's NOT low level. His durability is also high when using this for defense

I would like to ask for feats of his protective shields. Simply to be able to gauge how powerful they actually are. Anyhow, i doubt they would successfully defend him from a TP attack, water draining, they could protect him from a tsunami if you have feats to put it at that level though but anyhow. I am definitely finding ways to go around your shields as, from what i can see you really are going for the bunker strategy.

Your mistaken if you think Buddy can;t match Arthur physically.He need only use a few dinosaurs to achieve this and he has done so before

FEATS. 2 posts of the debate in and you are yet to show any FEATS of Buddy doing that or any feats that put him anywhere NEAR the level you need for that to happen.

Buddy cannot match Arthur. A few dinosaurs combined do not come near his strength which is further enhanced by the armor he is wearing.

The time he created duplicates his duplicates were creating more while he left the room so they displayed his power

Not really, they did go on multiplying but that makes sense since they are bacterial copies of him and that is what his power does, but, while we are here. What happened to them? No one killed them, they simply disappeared. Or is there a support group for discarded clones somewhere on DC earth? Anyhow, and i know i say this a lot, FEATS. You have no feats to prove that. They are not shadow clones, they are bacterial copies of him who kept on copying themselves, which is more likely to simply be the power that he used to do that, and not their conscious decision to keep multiplying or to tap into the RED as they are not actual avatars of it.

You've forgotten about the fact that Holt has faced a high level Tper and used his T-Spheres to shut him down

I didn't forget anything, you forgot to show feats of that event. All that i remember from reading his comics is his short bout against Brainstorm in Mister Terrific #2, who is a technology based villain, not a psyonic one. Also, the T-Sphere, had to reboot his brain to help him, so that feat has nothing to do with what he will be facing here. But, i will give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you to show me the instance you are talking about.

After defeating the Thirst Arthur actually rarely used the water hand at all for anything other than healing. So their is nothing to state that using it that way again wouldn't cause problems.

Well, first of all, i would like to state that he has gotten angry time and time again and simply used his other hand to punch out his opponents. (the water hand being the Left one). Also, i would like to point out the fact that he would be using a trident in this fight. And for the feats of him attacking others with the water hand:

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As is my standard procedure , i will offer 5 scans to undoubtedly prove that it poses no trouble to use his hand this way.

you brought 2 telepaths to the battle I brought 3 (4 if you count AM). none of mine are the exact equal of your best but DN and BW are close (and above in some categories and two of my three are above Aq I also have another guy who defeated TP with tech

Yes, but my 2 telepaths are better than 4 of yours. Let's explain, Dark Nebula has incredible willpower but he is not an offensive telepath, in fact, i don't really remember any instances of him using TP to attack someone, but i believe you will hook me up shortly. Either way, Xavier maintaining billions of minds, or taking down 50% of the Phoenix force with ease puts him above your characters, and Aquaman, while being notably weaker than Charles, still has incredible Planetary feats of Telepathy, even being able to cause pain to all living creatures on Earth while battling another telepath. Quality over quantity.

three of my team are also capable of teleportaion/ dimensional travel compared to only Cyborg and AQ on your team

I don't actually see the relevance of this claim since Cyborg can literally create HUNDREDS of boom tubes thus managing all of my needs for transportation.

you have one high level energy manipulator as do I. The fact that you believe DN would edge Blue Supe's outr means you concede he is slightly higher

They are very comparable and, in a 1v1 scenario he would Edge him out probably, but here is the kicker. With the speed advantage Superman holds in this fight, he can affect everyone in your team before the prolonged fight between him and DN even starts. And ONCE MORE, since 4 of your characters have next to no durability that could potentially spell disaster for your team. Leaving only Dark Nebula and Animal Man even before anyone on your team can react. Potentially.

Aquaman isn't easily taking out a single AM as you believe UNLESS he uses that damn water hand in battle. then he would. that's why I'm sending so much against him.

First of all, there is a good chance that Arthur would indeed use it. However, i still maintain that he doesn't need it. His strength and durability edges are so far ahead of Animal Man he simply beats him down. Especially in the armor.

The Threat of Mera:

Mera honestly isn't much of a threat. Terrific can take her down like he did Capt Nazi with the T-spheres (which has the added advantage of pissing of Arthur and making him fight in anger with that hand) or BW could TK her out of it or brain blast her out of it.

Now this one really hurts my soul. Mera is GODDAMN BEAST. You can't just disregard a fighter who is basically a Wonder Woman level with more versatility. And it is not a coincidence i said "Wonder Woman" level:

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Stomps Wonder Woman (BL)

Mera is strong. Very much so. You can't just ignore attacks like these two:

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And the huge amount of water is something i already mentioned during the prep.

Huge amounts of water are something i already brought up during my prep. I would be flooding the field to the best of my team's abilities. And since Both Aquaman and Mera can control and create Tsunamis i believe that would very much happen.

And something you also can't afford to discard as not a threat:

And down your team goes, literally, only DN staying on his feet.
And down your team goes, literally, only DN staying on his feet.

Current Conclusions:

1. You would get your T-Spheres, just not by building them. Yes, your team can summon them. However, i am still to see feats of Holt using them to prepare for a fight. Especially to make an unbeatable plan.

2. You could use Doc Oc to find out about my characters during prep. But your team does not know who they are fighting. That is why the "full knowledge" per is as potent as it is.

3. Occult never showed defense against TP attacks to my knowledge, and i have debunked your Linda Danvers moment

4. Occult never showed to be powerful enough to stop something like a tsunami wave. Or a Superman.

5. You have no feats to show that Animal Man is as strong as you suggest. He simply gets taken down.

6. Brainwave - Constructs have to be weaker than Spider man. Thus losing to my army.

7. Brainwave: As i have said, weaker than Xavier in TP. And by a solid margin at that.

8. Mera: Huge mistake to try and ignore her. She can instakill most of your team members by draining them and has incredible water "bending" feats.

9. Cyborg. One more person you chose to relatively ignore. Basically the same job Mr T has but actually improved for battle. He can take damage and dish it out. Unlike Holt who would die to random aoe. Also, he could possibly hack some of the T-Spheres as he did to the mother boxes or the swarm of thingamabobs in the Kindred arc -

The main weakness of your team:

Basically, the lack of durability. In a massive high tiered fight with a lot of blasts and explosions going around, tsunami crashing into the battle energy projection. You have too many soft characters. While your use of them in a high tier tourney is ingenious you simply forgot about that issue. I have went out of my way to protect those i thought needed it, making Xavier invisible and dedicating a part of my prep to further protect him. You did decide to hide them behind force field, but my team actually has ways of bypassing those shields. Even teleporting inside your shields would do a lot to completely wreck your team.

Also, basically no one on your team is fast enough to react to my Superman who could knock the squishies out before they can react to him.

For the Voters;

Time for my Mandatory "For The Voters" section. Well, this time there is not a lot to say. Beatboks is a great debater, but he is kinda attached to his favorite characters a bit too much. I mean claiming Animal Man is a Herald Tier is almost at the level of saying Sentry is Multiversal. It only makes sense to the fans.

Throwing calculations around instead of using feats. Hoping that one fan calc would overshadow years of showings for that character and make him out to be a ftl mountain buster, where his best feats actually include cars and trucks. Not hanging with high tiers.

Other than that, the debate is rather straight forward. So far, my team simply outfights his. I mean, even debating about Dark Nebula mostly came from my knowledge since he has shown no feats for that character as of yet while i have carefully backed everything i claimed. IT would be easy to stretch the ideas wide and make a plan that is almost DarkRaideny in nature and show how i cannot be beaten, but that is not really what my characters would do. And it is not what his will either.

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#23 Posted by beatboks1 (9917 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid:

OK my closing statement.

Much of the counters appear to be this can't happen that can't happen etc. So I'll address each quickly before summoning.

T-spheres.

I'm not summoning them, nor am I saying I am now just that I could have. My last post as simply saying look at what I'm actually doing with them. The things I'm suing them for quite frankly could be achieved by an Ipad attached to a drone. That would take all of seconds to make the number I've said I will. I have two hours with a mind link to the brain that created them. Fully functioning T-spheres they may not be but in the time allowed WITH the abilities of DN I can certainly create the number of T-spheres i need with more functions than I'm trying to use them for. Essentually they are no more than an information link to Terrific's base. Literally all they are doing is watching and scanning and sending the information on - Brings us to

Future sight

So you want a Holt feat for looking into the time stream, fine

No Caption Provided

In the space of two panels Holt adjusted one of his T-Sphere's to look into the future and the past. I didn't do this because the T=spheres made in prep wont be THIS sophisticated to easily do this. Fortunately however they don't need to be as Holt now has a base in a dimension that already gives him this without such technical tooling around. A fact he became aware of in full after he met Sloane and sloane made him aware that he would be a problem to his plans.

Occult's knowledge

Complete knowledge no. He is certainly not omniscient. I just realised I said that (Complete knowledge) in a summary and that is definitely an over statement on my part. The fact is that Occult does have quite intimate knowledge that he shouldn't very soon after meeting people. Occult can't as I've already stated see into the future. He and the other members of the trenchcoat brigade have always required Mr E for that. I can produce plenty of scans showing his spiderman like danger sense ( sometimes referred to as his dick vibrating) which points him in the direction of danger.

No Caption Provided

That is as close as Occult comes to seeing the future. no more than Spidey.

BTW where exactly did I say he has "full passive knowledge" ??? He clearly acquires this knowledge AFTER he meets people. He hadn't met Jarred prior to attaining the knowledge while the Conclave drill Jarred Nor had he met the mad russian he defended to PS etc. Yet an instant after encountering them he knew what he had to because he wanted to. This can be obtained between the seconds of the battle or as soon as is known who they are facing.

Battle computer

Yes the BC has had its failings. Not a great many but it has. However the battle computer has NEVER had all the additional data input that it has here. Normally it projects possible futures based solely on what midnighters implants pickup on. Here it has actual alternate futures that are more accurate. Is it really that hard to understand that increasing the levelof data input improves the effectiveness of the computer??? Past failures don't reflect here because we are using better data input than has ever been used.

Occult's defenses

First I'll deal with Linda Danvers. Her powers are and always have been Psionic in nature. Her "fire" is the angel fire that burns the soul. Let's face it she used it against denizens of hell that are dead and on't have a physical form for normal fire to harm. We've seen that Occult "deflected it" and the result was a psionic attack on her. So if his disk reflects energy attacks both supernatural and natural (of which fire would be) why was Linda Danvers not burned ???

As you can see from the link you've given his disk allows him to create a force field. The thing is his force fields have failed against ordinary robots made by Wotan in 1940 yet protected him from the entire crushing earth falling on his head in Reign in hell and from the physical attacks of demons that have knocked Wonder Woman on her ass. the reason for this is that the power the disk uses to create force fields is what ever energy around him he can absorb. The reason he can be taken out by street levelers but stand up to much more powerful beings is that when a street leveler faces him he has no energy to absorb to power his force fields. On this battle field he has the energy of Dark Nebula Blue Superman,, and Arthur's water hand. I highly doubt any force of water is cracking a force field powered by all that.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

As you can see form the rest of Occult's powers (that he has even without the disk and only via training) Even if it did crack his shields he can become intangible so it passes through him and then simple astral travel away from harm. Given his danger sense I highly doubt anyone here can do much to

Animal man Mid tier LOL

So Chimeroid thinks I'm doing DBZ level calcs hunh? he asks for feats I've already provided. but I'll clarify.

Seriously voters does anyone truly beleive that being able to match even a weakened Flash in speed at the peak of your ability is mid tier?? Lets look at that one feat closer.

Buddy stacked ant's and cockroaches to acieve that speed. Let's lower the feat and say that for the sake of argument Flash was only going 1/4 the speed of light when buddy caught him. TO achieve that feat would have required roughly 127,000 ants. Ants lift 50 times their own weight, so a SINGLE ant would make buddy (85kg) a 4.2 tonner, 10 ants therefore 42 tonner, 100 a 420 tonner, 1000 ants (which would be 126,000 less than a truly toned down rot world feat) would make him a 4,200 tonner ( or about 8 times the greatest strength feat Aquaman has). Ohh but this can't happen because it's completely unreasonable that I can stack the speed but not the strength of the same animal to a lesser degree.

Chimeroid asks why in Issue 12 he didn't just become so powerful to stomp/ Well there was the context of the plot

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buddy was specifically cut off from the red/m field. The only animal he could access was the bacteria on the skin of his adversary.

This was from a time Buddy had to be near to an animal to obtain it's power (back when he was closer to mid tier)

Voters I ask you is a character who can

  • duplicate multiples
  • enhance their strength to class 100
  • enhance their speed to even 1/4 light speed
  • gain durability to withstand a fall form an aircraft
  • regenerate entire severed body parts
  • have sonic blasts
  • electric powers
  • alter relative time rate
  • enhance multiple senses
  • control mass
  • gain TP
  • obtain the power to merge life forms
  • gain the power to spray acid

and much much more Mid tier??? Remember I've shown scans of ALL the above.

Sheer versatility alone puts them in the low herald level category

Superman often faces lower tier characters and doesn't show his full range of power.

Oh and for the record Animal man is far from a favorite character. He wouldn't even make my top 100. I like using him in tourney's because he's so damn versatile

Brainwave Jnr

Even in TP Xavier doesn't have feats above BW in all categories.

Hank has defeated Ultra Humanite in TP. Had Maxima on the ropes in the astral field (where she is supposed to be supreme) and achieved things that MMH couldn't.

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Hank could casually breach BA's mental defenses which in WWIII MMH couldn't. In Millenium it was aHank called on to TP scan the entire planet because MMh couldn't. Hank defeated Ultra who has bested MMH in TP. Maxima refers to how strong HANK'S power is.

I'm the first to admit that Xavier's TP defense is vastly superior to Hanks and Hank is actually unable to keep the minds of others out of his but in TP offense I'd say they are more like peers/equals

As for the limit of summons, No I didn't forget. Or did you miss that I said .

He then uses his ability to create mental 3d constructs to create 200 spiderman level lackies to fight for him.

Specifically at the limits.

You claimed they would be nothing to Atlanteans because they were featless. I simply showed that his constructs actually have feats VASTLY above the limit set. So by your own admission Atlanteans are around 3-4 tonners. Spidey is a 10 tonner and BW has created constructs of Major Force who is vastly above that (showing they are with feats to support) so clearly it isn't my summons that are lacking

Aledged lack of durability

So let's look at this. I have a team of 6

one is dead and as such unable to be killed and can get back up from being killed in a single panel

One can regenerate severed body parts in two panels

three can create force fields (Occult by disk BW by TK which has shattered Alan Scots energy constructs which would easily withstand any attacks of your team) and Holt by T-spheres.

four can dimensioanlly travel or teleport )Midnighter by doors, Holt by T-spheres, Occult by astral plane, and Dark Nebula by bending space and time.

and one can become intangible

how exactly am I lacking in durability again?? It would seem I have dozens of ways to withstand any attack you could make.

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#24 Posted by Chimeroid (9237 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1:

FINAL ROUND

In this round i will jumble it up a bit to make my points clearer.

The Question of Durability:

The last part poses a question i would like to immediately answer. So, the defenses you propose are as follows:

1.Force Fields 2.Being Dead 3.Dimensional Travel. 4. Intangibility

Let's see about that.

1. Force Fields - The feats you have provided for your force fields, unfortunately, do not hold up to the tsunami attack. And also they fail to address the issue of my team being able to teleport behind your shields

2. Being Dead/Regenerating - Both me and the voters lack the knowledge of Dark Nebula and you, somehow, forgot to offer feats for this throughout the debate. There is a reason feats are important. Can he be knocked out? Can he be shackled? I mean, my team would not go for the kill anyhow so him being unable to die really changes nothing. You did not provide any durability feats for him and that, to me, spells that he would be knocked out.

3. Dimensional Travel - This one is simple. Leaving the dimension to avoid attacks is basically Self BFR and it is not allowed in this tournament.

4. Intangibility - The only reference of that is in the origin story scan, and it says, and i quote: "To become immaterial for very brief periods". Would not offer enough protection in a battle scenario such as this one.

So, once again, Superman flies in blitzing your team at 32x the speed of light. 200 atlantean soldiers open fire. Aquaman and Mera Cause a tsunami and your squishies go down. Hard. And this is before my more potent, and more versatile attacks (seizures, Energy Draining by Superman, TP) come in handy.

Occult's Shields:

Linda Danvers claim: Actually, you are very wrong. She has angelic, Divine powers. Not psionic ones. And, i have already shown the scan of what EXACT attack she used. And it was basically holy flames.

And, btw, Demons in DC have been punched by regular heroes. SO your claim that Demons don't have physical form also falls flat. Best part in Occult says he has no idea what happened.

And regarding your claim that he can absorb the energies of all of these, you are yet to show a scan of that. The symbol reflects the energy of the attack. And might absorb the energy once released, but it does not absorb the energies of the characters who are just standing around. It is not Black Alice. Also, you need to erect your shields before the fight starts (*thus, before any energy from my team is available) or my team will simply blitz your "Peak Humans" in an instant and before they can react.

Animal Man Nonsense:

So this is what you chose to do after being called out for using fan calcs instead of feats? You offer more calcs and excuses. Just admit it HE DOESN'T HAVE THE FEATS TO BACK YOU UP. I asked you to show me exactly when has he done anything that would put him NEAR Aquaman's strength, when he has done anything that would put him NEAR Aquaman's durability and what you offer? More calcs and fan Theories.

You listed a bunch of abilities and asked if those are something for a mid tier, and actually, yes they are. Exactly mid tier. In fact, going by feats you have shown, i don't see him beating midnighter let alone being a herald tier.

And even in these calcs he ridiculously lowballs Aquaman... to quote:

would make him a 4,200 tonner ( or about 8 times the greatest strength feat Aquaman has).

He basically claims Arthur peaks at 800 tonnes. A good moment to slow down and remind ourselves what are the actual "Greatest" strength feats for Aquaman:

No Caption Provided

Definitely more than 4000 tonnes. (as a quick Google search states that a 10 story building weighs around 36.000 tons)

Anyhow, the calc remains irrelevant as you have not offered any feats of strength for Animal Man to prove that he can do what you claim. He has never lifted that weight, he has never tussled with a high tier.

What i am stating are fact, your statements, however, are merely fan calculations in attempts to make your character look better.

SO, once more, FEATS. He has one outlier in the New 52 that let him stack enough speed to move slower than half the speed he thought New 52 Flash could move. And, while i also agree that, what i have shown you is also an outlier feat of strength, Aquaman has multiple other strength feats, like:

Strength: Lifts and swings around a Crane

Strength: Keeping a building up during Tremors

Strength: Lifts a building overhead underwater

On the other hand, you didn't provide a SINGLE strength feat for Buddy during this entire debate. And yet, you go on claiming he is a Herald tier, when he was always a backup Leaguer who is not even high in the mid tier.

Your Knowledge and Plan:

I will combine all of the segments regarding this in one paragraph.

Mr T. - What you have here is Holt sending out a signal to future and past, not him preparing for battle by looking into the future. Also, he didn't adjust the T-Sphere just then, he already speaks in past tense in those panels. Also, you have not proven that it is in character for him to prepare for a fight in such a manner. All in all, it is a bust since you did not actually show us Holt using the Ninth dimension to prep for a battle, or that he even CAN do that.

Doc Oc. - As i have said, how would Occult know who to investigate? And even if he did successfully look into the future to see who is there, he would not see Xavier as he is invisible. And even then, as i have said, his knowledge does not provide detailed info. And, as you yourself has backtracked, his knowledge comes once he meets a person since he does not actually see into the future. At which point it is rather late to make a plan.

Midnighter - I have already debunked your "full info" strategy and proven that it wouldn't provide you with all that much. Also, as already stated, even if it were to work, you would not see Xavier (invisibility perk) and your plan would have a major flaw.

Brainwave vs Xavier:

So, to sum up the scans you believe should put Brainwave on Xavier's level (and why Xavier is better):

1. Reading Black Adam's mind but being unable to actually influence him, evident by BA choking him. (Xavier had the same success, but with GALACTUS)

2. Straining himself to the limit to scan the planet (Xavier pulled the collective consciousness of a planet ^ and has operated on galactic distances, not to mention THIS)

3. Beating Maxima. (Easily beating Cyclops with 50% of the Phoenix Force)

And, if basic mind Reading is a feat of enough importance to measure by then keep in mind Aquaman has entered MMH's mind without consent himself. Which would put him at a level near BWJR (i do not believe he can contend, just applying your logic).

Constructs:

Yet another misunderstanding coming from your end:

You claimed they would be nothing to Atlanteans because they were featless. I simply showed that his constructs actually have feats VASTLY above the limit set. So by your own admission Atlanteans are around 3-4 tonners. Spidey is a 10 tonner and BW has created constructs of Major Force who is vastly above that (showing they are with feats to support) so clearly it isn't my summons that are lacking

I didn't claim your constructs to be featless or weak. What i claimed is that they are not an organised army. You know, basic stuff, like strategies, formations, warfare. And they are in combat against an army who is well organised, well trained and deadly. Remember, they were conquering the US before Aquaman interfered.

What you forgot to address:

For the reason which i can only assume is lack of a counter, you completely failed to address Mera once more. You still offer no counters to being drained dry or even her skill in combat. Your only plan for Mera is to use the T-Spheres like it happened against Captain Nazi somehow bypassing my army, Superman, Cyborg, the Tsunamis and even her own speed advantage over Holt, which leads me to a different point you forgot to counter:

Cyborg - He could possibly hack the T-Spheres (which i mentioned a couple of times, and he would definitely hack the improvised ones from Wallmart) and use them against your team to a devastating effect. You forgot to offer feats of protection against hacking, while i have Cyborg already hacking into the Mother Boxes, the alien tech in Kindred arc, and basically other tech he came up against.

Invisibility - As stated previously, Xavier being invisible is actually a big deal. Your team would not see him, would not know to prep for him and would be completely surprised to be put to sleep telepathically at the start of the fight.

How your team wins - The utter lack of feats, or even propositions on exactly how your team beats mine is a big, big issue you forgot to address. I did agree that DN could eventually take out Blue Superman, but that is because of my personal research, i do not expect our voters to go through all of that, it was up to you to provide us with feats or at least statements on how EXACTLY Nebula can take my team on.

Final Battle Conclusions:

For this segment i will just go with the claims that i made, and you didn't touch upon as accepted. So let's see how the battle ends:

1. Cyborg Hacks the T-Spheres

2. The Tsunamis hit you or your shields. Either way, a lot of water around for my team to use.

3. Mera Dehydrates Midnighter, Holt and BWJR either that, or Superman simply blitzes them.

4. For the sake of argument let's say our armies take each other out to make it easier. (especially since i assume yours would dissipate as BW loses his consciousness)

5. Aquaman in his battle armor (which, again, is something you did not address) Takes on Buddy, and going by feats you have provided. With relative ease.

6. We can teleport behind your shields

7. The team takes on Dark Nebula together. I don't know a lot about him, but i assume being completely drained out of water, TP assaulted by Xavier and Aquaman, physically assaulted by Aquaman in the armor and drained of energy by Superman Blue (just a reminder, he is better at draining than Parasite) and bombarded by different attacks by Cyborg. He would fall.

For The Voters:

1. For one of the best debaters on the Vine he has made a lot of errors in this debate. Forgot to address a large portion of my points (that i felt were crucial),

2. Another unfortunate thing for him is that i was able to prove that acting in anger would not affect the water hand since Arthur has defeated Thirst and no longer does it pose an issue

3. Bit too much into the calcs for Animal Man and went on extrapolating a lot of ideas on how he could stack different animals, which is something Animal Man never did. And even if he was capable of it (which he is not) feats are needed to prove that he WOULD do that. It is quite clearly not an in character move for him.

4. In the end we are left with my team holding most of the edges. Bear in mind our teams are basically Copy/Paste of each other. We have the same roles in our characters, with tech, anti magic, telepathy, energy manipulation. It is just that most of my characters are simply better at it than his with the sole exception of the Dark Nebula. But that still leaves my entire team to go up against him once the initial burst of fighting happens. I am not saying he would go down easy, but he would go down.

5. Feats. Did you guys also notice he forgot to use feats in this debate? Apart for animal man he solely focused on trying to defend his team any way possible. Unfortunately, that is simply not enough to win a battle. I have a stack of scans ready to show defensive feats for my characters, their forcefields, durability etc. however there was no need for me to use any of that as he didn't even provide a threat for me to counter. For a debater that experienced that is a major setback in a debate that should determine the winner of the tournament.

And finally 6. Goddamn, my counters were on point throughout the debate. I know boasting is not a good thing, but i did my research meticulously for this debate and to me, it seems like it paid off.

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#25 Posted by Chimeroid (9237 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: Done, good luck with votes.

@emperorthanos:We are done, open for votes. please (and tag the participants)

Tagging those who asked to be tagged

The battle I've secretly been waiting for...

T4V

This is so awesome! 5 of my favorite under rated heroes plus two great debaters backing them in one CaV? T4V for sure.

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#26 Posted by emperorthanos- (16079 posts) - - Show Bio
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#27 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11461 posts) - - Show Bio

Read it twice and I'm somewhat struggling... gonna go read a third time in a few hours with a full stomach.

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#28 Posted by ASGARDIANBRONY (11629 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid wins. his argument was better, he countered most of beat's points and was on the offensive the entire debate.

also seriously? who honestly thinks animal man is herald level? being versatile does not equal herald level. its insulting to real heralds like thor, SS, sentry, ect.

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#29 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17357 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm voting for Chimeroid. And while the match was close, Chime summarises why he won best (last post for voters section). I belive both made good points and counters, however Beat lacked feats and the winning arguement/counter while Chime was almost always on point (the Animal Man counters were great and so was the ones Beat forgot to adress). But, I disagree with the notion that Chime's team was made better (with the exception of Dark Nebula), and think that Beat could have won this if he had argued the right ways.

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#30 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31479 posts) - - Show Bio
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#31 Posted by Chimeroid (9237 posts) - - Show Bio
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#32 Posted by Chimeroid (9237 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by MyLittleFascist (31479 posts) - - Show Bio

I vote @chimeroid. He did a very good job of dismantling much of Beatboks's strategy in regards to future sight, midnighter, animal man, and so on.

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#34 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11461 posts) - - Show Bio
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#35 Posted by Chimeroid (9237 posts) - - Show Bio
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#36 Posted by WordWarrior (1084 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: pretty much dismantled beatboks' argument and some of the reaching he tried to do and beatboks' didn't really counter it with any feats so it's an easy win for chimeroid.

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#37 Posted by beatboks1 (9917 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by beatboks1 (9917 posts) - - Show Bio

But, I disagree with the notion that Chime's team was made better (with the exception of Dark Nebula)

O_o ???

Are you saying that DN was a poor choice/weak link in my team???

He was easily the most powerful character on both teams, and could solo a few on both sides here. Certainly could have soloed the rest of my team with only Occult's disk giving them a chance.

  1. only character capable of destruction on a planetary level
  2. only character who can casually catch (with TK) space shuttles rocketing to earth out of control WHILE TK moving large airliners
  3. only character than can destroy millions of immortal beings
  4. only character who has faced and defeated a celestial level character
  5. only character capable of breaching rules 3 and 6 if they weren't there
  6. Added to which if I could find my issues TP feats above Xaviers best, and Durability that survived/tanked the space station he was on being blown to atoms without even harming him
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#39 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17357 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: No sorry. I was quoting Chime he said "It is just that most of my characters are simply better at it than his with the sole exception of the Dark Nebula. " And I meant that Chime said his choices were better than yours aside from Dark Nebula which he admits was better.

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#40 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17357 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Now that I'm here.

Chime, do you happen to have the first issue Superman Blue appeared in? I am making an RT for him and so far I have the issues from Man of Steel, Superman Adventures, Action comics and Superman Red/Blue.

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#41 Posted by Chimeroid (9237 posts) - - Show Bio

@major_hellstorm: It's in Superman Vol 2 123. I have the scans if you need them :D

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#43 Posted by Major_Hellstrom (17357 posts) - - Show Bio

@chimeroid: Turns out I don't have it. But the Superman comics are so hard to navigate, I think I'll just put it on hold and do Nero first.

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#44 Posted by beatboks1 (9917 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1: No sorry. I was quoting Chime he said "It is just that most of my characters are simply better at it than his with the sole exception of the Dark Nebula. " And I meant that Chime said his choices were better than yours aside from Dark Nebula which he admits was better.

Fair enough, I got the wrong end of the stick then.

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#45 Posted by emperorthanos- (16079 posts) - - Show Bio
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