2 Knightfall Anakin vs Episode 3 Darth Sidious

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crclopezos

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#1  Edited By crclopezos
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GangOrca

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The Anakins take this.

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achillesspawn

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The Anakins stomp

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@gangorca said:

The Anakins take this.

Disagree.

In character at this time Anakin wouldn't want to kill Sidious. Sids would play with his emotions until he becomes MFV, and 2 MFV's are certainly not beating ROTS Sids.

If we want to be real, Sids can just lightning them, and while they can block, he would talk to them the whole time and screw with their emotions to the point where he one shots them. KFV is just raw power, he has no real knowledge of the dark side or how to use it/counter it.

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#5  Edited By GangOrca
@Aristeaus said:
@gangorca said:

The Anakins take this.

Disagree.

In character at this time Anakin wouldn't want to kill Sidious. Sids would play with his emotions until he becomes MFV, and 2 MFV's are certainly not beating ROTS Sids.

If we want to be real, Sids can just lightning them, and while they can block, he would talk to them the whole time and screw with their emotions to the point where he one shots them. KFV is just raw power, he has no real knowledge of the dark side or how to use it/counter it.

But the thing is, for this thread, wouldn't they want to kill Sidious in order for there to be a fight to begin with?

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BreakOfDawn

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One Anakin can win without mental manipulation. Two slaughter.

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palpatine

he was hanging with yoda

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Aristeaus

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@gangorca said:
@Aristeaus said:
@gangorca said:

The Anakins take this.

Disagree.

In character at this time Anakin wouldn't want to kill Sidious. Sids would play with his emotions until he becomes MFV, and 2 MFV's are certainly not beating ROTS Sids.

If we want to be real, Sids can just lightning them, and while they can block, he would talk to them the whole time and screw with their emotions to the point where he one shots them. KFV is just raw power, he has no real knowledge of the dark side or how to use it/counter it.

But the thing is, for this thread, wouldn't they want to kill Sidious in order for there to be a fight to begin with?

I suppose in the spirit of the fight sure, but even if you replaced Sidious with a generic sith of equal power, KFV devolves into MFV pretty quickly. Its not like Sidious did that to him. He doesn't know how to handle those emotions. If he doesn't walk through a opponent with pure power, things go down hill for him.

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@rawsos said:

palpatine

he was hanging with yoda

base Anakin was already close or even superior to Yoda. KFV would definitely be above him.

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iirc this statements was confirmed to be including yoda.

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hanging with Yoda doesn't mean much.

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One Anakin can win without mental manipulation. Two slaughter.

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@rawsos said:

@achillesspawn: ur saying obi wan>yoda then

Anakin was weakened on Mustafar, in both canon and legends.

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#14  Edited By MyGod000
@achillesspawn said:

The Anakins stomp

At worse they Stomp...at best they curbstomp him.

Sidious already Admitted Anakin rivaled him in power....Adding another individual who Rivals Sidious in Power makes this a complete Curbstomp.

Before he kills Sidious he will be revealing to The world that Sidious is weak.

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This thread explains it:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/frozen/blog/rots-anakin-is-more-powerful-than-yoda-in-disney-c/160799/

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#17  Edited By Eredin12

@achillesspawn:

Anakin was weakened on Mustafar, in both canon and legends.

Not in Legends, he is directly stated to be at his peak on Mustafar while fighting Kenobi, only argument against it is mental gymnastic about some metaphors that were both never direct unlike this guidebook, they can mean a lot of things and they also came before this guidebook scan(ROTS novelization that came before movie itself), meaning they are retconned by it anyway, but for canon yea, and as no version was specified we assume canon, so yea Anakin takes it

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that thread is only about Disney canon as well

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@eredin12 said:

@achillesspawn:

Anakin was weakened on Mustafar, in both canon and legends.

Not in Legends, he is directly stated to be at his peak on Mustafar while fighting Kenobi, only argument aginst is mental gymnastic about some metaphors that were both never direct and can mean a lot of things and that also came before this guidebook scan, from ROTS novelization, meaning they are retconned by it anyway, but for canon yea, and as no version was specified we assume canon, so yea Anakin takes it

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that thread is only about Disney canon, like this thread

Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable.

Anakin is hindered on Mustafar.

"Obi-Wan triumphed because he went to Mustafar with a single intention in mind: to kill Darth Vader."

Obi Wan was amped

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One splits even with Sidious, two slaughter

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Eredin12

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#20  Edited By Eredin12

@achillesspawn: I mean same novel says this:

Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

Revenge of the Sith

was " between worlds" when attacking Jedi temple as well, you could

That he was completely consumed by rage to the point that he was not himself anymore and rage powers DS as we both know, so he was not evenly split between LS and DS or something, basically you have one contradicting source which is not even direct, versus one direct one ,that came later as well so it retcons ROTS novel anyway( younger sources retcon older ones they contradict)

Going with the intention to kill someone does not make you amped though, Palpatine went with intention to kill Fisto and other Jedi fodders, but that does not mean he was amped

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One Anakin can win without mental manipulation. Two slaughter.

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One is enough.

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Conterrum2K

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@eredin12: I think MF was also a dark side nexus, meaning Anakin was amped. Kenobi also did not want to strike Anakin down until Anakin jumped off the sinking metal thingy. That is why he lured Anakin there in the first place, he wanted to use the environment to kill Anakain.

Legends: Anakins take this. MF(Was amped by a DS Nexus) / KF Vader

are supposed to rival yoda and sidious in sheer saber skill alone. He just lacks the force powers/ application(NOT reserves or potential) to back it up to take a majority. MF Anakin and Kenobi are perhaps the most SKILLED saber combatants in star wars, at least in legends. Gillard said that Anakin lost because he made A mistake, Kenobi did not make a mistake. During the duel no one made a mistake, they perfected their forms to the absoloute maxium.

2 Vaders are too much for sidious in sabers AND enough to upset the force advantage. Only way Sidious takes this is with lightning.

Anakins 8/10

Canon: Not quite sure on where KF Vader stands. If he loses the legends quotes and the novelisation I do not see him on sidious and yodas tier. Sidious takes this with difficulty.

Sidious 9/10

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#25  Edited By achillesspawn
@conterrum2k said:

Canon: Not quite sure on where KF Vader stands. If he loses the legends quotes and the novelisation I do not see him on sidious and yodas tier. Sidious takes this with difficulty.

Sidious 9/10

KFV is as strong as the Palpatine in canon how is Sidious beating two of them?

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Uhu123

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@conterrum2k:

I think MF was also a dark side nexus

Uhm, what?

Kenobi also did not want to strike Anakin down until Anakin jumped off the sinking metal thingy. That is why he lured Anakin there in the first place, he wanted to use the environment to kill Anakain.

Citation needed.

MF Anakin and Kenobi are perhaps the most SKILLED saber combatants in star wars

Kenobi is still a confirmed tier 8, so he doesn't qualify. Unhindered MFV would be a candidate for top 3, but people like GM Luke or DE Sidious are still pretty far beyond him.

Canon: Not quite sure on where KF Vader stands.

Canon Anakin is already a confirmed peer of Sidious and Yoda, by KF he might even be slightly superior.

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#27  Edited By Conterrum2K

@uhu123: That is MF Vader. Base ani is not a tier 9 in ROTS. MAYBE after the IH fight but even than he struggled with GGs Magana guard which Kenobi actually wounded quicker.

The difference between tier 8 and 9 is the dark side per gillard. Kenobi and ani are equally skilled. MF Vader just finally has MUCH more power than Kenobi. However Kenobi can move up there with his oneness and letting go.

Vader is not hindered in legends!! Why did u turn this into ani vs obi when we just had that? Do you disagree with my verdict against Sidious?

Pls post something about canon MF/ KF Vader. I am kind of rusty on his statements and feats.

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Uhu123

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@conterrum2k:

That is MF Vader. Base ani is not a tier 9 in ROTS.

When did I argue the opposite? The case for IH Anakins superiority comes from their respective performances, especially in the novel, as well as Gillard further reinforcing that notion.

Kenobi and ani are equally skilled. MF Vader just finally has MUCH more power than Kenobi. However Kenobi can move up there with his oneness and letting go.

Depends on your definition of "skill". I tend to refer to it as a combination of technical skill as well as augmentation. If we use pure technical skill Dooku, Kasím and Can Drallig would all be beyond KFV, which I'm sure you agree is a ridiculous notion. Do you hold peak Mustafar Kenobi as a tier 9?

Vader is not hindered in legends!!

There is a case to be made that he was, as well as circumstances in Kenobis favor.

Why did u turn this into ani vs obi when we just had that?

Not sure tbh, I just responded to the points I disagreed with lmao.

Do you disagree with my verdict against Sidious?

I hold KFV as a peer of Sidious, so two should pretty much stomp. Not much of a difference, but I think Sidious doesn't take a single round unless he managed to mindfuck the Vaders.

Pls post something about canon MF/ KF Vader. I am kind of rusty on his statements and feats.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/frozen/blog/rots-anakin-is-more-powerful-than-yoda-in-disney-c/160799/

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Twice the Anakins, double the fall.

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BreakOfDawn

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@uhu123: That is MF Vader. Base ani is not a tier 9 in ROTS. MAYBE after the IH fight but even than he struggled with GGs Magana guard which Kenobi actually wounded quicker.

The difference between tier 8 and 9 is the dark side per gillard. Kenobi and ani are equally skilled. MF Vader just finally has MUCH more power than Kenobi. However Kenobi can move up there with his oneness and letting go.

Vader is not hindered in legends!! Why did u turn this into ani vs obi when we just had that? Do you disagree with my verdict against Sidious?

Pls post something about canon MF/ KF Vader. I am kind of rusty on his statements and feats.

Gillard has stated on several occasions that Anakin is more skilled than Obi-Wan. As for MFV being hindered, this is all but confirmed.

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@breakofdawn: in legends he is peak power. Kenobi and anakin are 8 per gillard on the IH until Anakin rages. As Vader he is a 9.

Why do you bring this up when I already adressed that multiple times? What do you gain from this? At least bring some sources. Congratulations you added nothing to the discussion.

He moved passed obi raged AND as Vader.

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@conterrum2k:

So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally."

Source: http://www.theforce.net/episode3/story/nick_gillard_talks_rots_game_92147.asp

'Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him,' he notes.

Source: The Making of Revenge of the Sith

"Obi knows that Anakin is better than him, but because he taught him, he knows emotionally how he’s going to behave."

Source: http://www.theforce.net/episode3/story/nick_gillard_talks_rots_game_92147.asp

The ease with which Kenobi had taken command of the situation was frightening. More frightening was the fact that of the two, Skywalker was reportedly the greater warrior.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Along with Anakins own accolades:

This makes Anakin, in effect, a Jedi Master, a rank that Anakin, with his unprecedented power in the Force, feels has been long overdue.

Source: Star Wars Miniatures: Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived.

Source: The Making of Revenge of the Sith

"Fully defeated by just anyone, the dark side cannot be, but only by the Chosen One. And who might be this Jedi? Know I do not, but not yet born is he or she. This much, sense I can. A vessel of pure Force the Chosen One will be, more powerful than any Jedi in history."

Source: Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

Even after all these months, she couldn't make herself entirely believe that actual Jedi blood ran in her veins-not only Jedi blood, but the blood of arguably the most powerful Jedi in history.

Source: Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor

Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi in over a thousand years.

Source: Star Wars Miniatures: Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

At nine years of age he had been an expert Podracer; by twenty-one he would have been a galactic champion. With or without Qui-Gon's or Watto's help, he would eventually have won the Boonta Eve race, and his reputation would have been made. He would have bought freedom for himself, his mother, all the slaves in Mos Espa, gone on to win the Grand Races on Malastare, been hailed in the gambling casinos on Ord Mantell and Coruscant. He wouldn't have become a Jedi--he would have been too old to train--would never have learned to wield a lightsaber. But he would have been able to fly rings around the finest of Jedi pilots, including Saesee Tiin.

And he still would have been stronger in the Force than any of them.

Source: Labyrinth of Evil

"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."

Source: Revenge of the Sith

"We won't try, Anakin. We will do. After all, they are only Senators. Most of them couldn't hide what they're thinking from a brain-damaged blindworm, let alone the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy."

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Obi-Wan Kenobi has endured the unenviable task of training the Jedi Order's most powerful and headstrong young Jedi, Anakin Skywalker.

Source: Star Wars Miniatures: Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

The Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker is the greatest hero of a Republic at war and has proved his bravery on many battlefields.

Source: The Clone Wars: Visual Guide

Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council.

Source: Labyrinth of Evil

"What? How can you do this? This is outrageous! It’s unfair! I’m more powerful than any of you. How can you be on the Council and not be a Master?"

"Take a seat, young Skywalker . . ."

...

Everything in his life had led to this point because Anakin Skywalker’s destiny had been subverted and warped by well-meaning but blind Masters, sending him off on a tangent to do a flawed Palpatine’s bidding instead of realizing his own full power.

I’m more powerful than any of you.

It was a boy’s expression of anger, but it was true.

Along with Anakins far superior performance against Dooku at base when compared to Kenobi:

He leaned into a thrust at Kenobi’s gut that the Jedi Master deflected with a rising parry, bringing them chest-to-chest, blades flaring, locked together a handbreadth from each other’s throats. “Your moves are too slow, Kenobi. Too predictable. You’ll have to do better.”

Kenobi’s response to this friendly word was to regard him with a twinkle of gentle amusement in his eye.

“Very well, then,” the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku’s head so fast it seemed he’d vanished.

And in the space where Kenobi’s chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker’s blade driving straight for Dooku’s heart.

Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak.

Dooku thought, What?

He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure - that had been entirely too close - but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi’s face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep -

But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku’s weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor.

This was not in the plan.

Skywalker slammed his following strike down so hard that the shock of deflecting it buckled Dooku’s elbows. Dooku threw himself into a backroll that brought him to his feet -- and Kenobi’s blade was there to meet his neck. Only a desperate whirling slash-block, coupled with a wheel kick that caught Kenobi on the thigh, bought him enough time to leap away again, and when he touched down--

Skywalker was already there.

The first overhand chop of Skywalker’s blade slid off Dooku’s instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku’s wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku’s scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.

Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from?

Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku’s breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker’s strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength - not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing - and only then did Dooku understand that he’d been suckered.

Skywalker’s Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.

It was time to alter his own tactics.

He dropped low and spun into another reverse anklesweep -- the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility -- that slapped Skywalker’s boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away -- Only to find himself again facing the wheel of blue lightning that was Kenobi’s blade.

Dooku decided that the comedy had ended.

Now it was time to kill.

Kenobi’s Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku’s own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi’s legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades -- and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku’s mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi’s Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this...

His farce had suddenly, inexplicably, spun from humorous to deadly serious and was tumbling rapidly toward terrifying. Realization burst through Dooku’s consciousness like the blossoming fireballs of dying ships outside: this pair of Jedi fools had somehow managed to become entirely dangerous.

These clowns might - just possibly - actually be able to beat him.

No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice.

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn’t have time to enjoy it.

Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku’s defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker--

Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he’d used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he’d best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony

He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze, and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

“Guards!” he said to the pair of super battle droids that still stood at attention to either side of the entrance. “Open fire!”

Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted their hands. Energy hammered out from the heavy blasters built into their arms; Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids, whose mirror-polished carapace armor deflected the bolts again. Galvened particle beams screeched through the room in blinding ricochets.

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi’s chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he’d broken his neck.

Wouldn’t that be lovely?

There was no sense in taking chances, however.

While Kenobi’s bonelessly limp body was still tumbling toward the floor far below, Dooku sent a surge of energy through the Force. Kenobi’s fall suddenly accelerated like a missile burning the last of its drives before impact. The Jedi Master struck the floor at a steep angle, skidded along it, and slammed into the wall so hard the hydro-foamed permacrete buckled and collapsed onto him.

This Dooku found exceedingly gratifying.

Anakin is, by all accounts, superior to his former master on the IH, even in his base incarnation.

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@breakofdawn: in legends he is peak power. Kenobi and anakin are 8 per gillard on the IH until Anakin rages. As Vader he is a 9.

Why do you bring this up when I already adressed that multiple times? What do you gain from this? At least bring some sources. Congratulations you added nothing to the discussion.

He moved passed obi raged AND as Vader.

No need to be so confrontational. If you wanted sources, you simply needed to ask.

Anakin being a 9:

"Hayden in this film has gone up to a level nine. He's gone past Obi."

-

"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."

-

"The level is not necessarily an indication of the performer's talent, but it takes a truly gifted and physically skilled actor to play a powerful Jedi combatant. 'Hayden Christensen is one of the best there is,' says Gillard. 'I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine.' For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."

-

In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines.

-

Gillard stating Anakin > Obi-Wan, and attributes Obi-Wan's victory to their mental states:

"Hayden in this film has gone up to a level nine. He's gone past Obi."

-

"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. It’s not just about a style of fighting—it’s mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally."

-

'Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him,' he notes.

-

"Obi knows that Anakin is better than him, but because he taught him, he knows emotionally how he’s going to behave."

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The ease with which Kenobi had taken command of the situation was frightening. More frightening was the fact that of the two, Skywalker was reportedly the greater warrior.

-

Note that Anakin even as of IH was technically a nine. He simply kept to his restraint, just like Mace (who was an 8, bordering on 9 - an 8.5 - until he let go of his restraint):

“Sidious is a level nine [out of ten]. On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine.

-

There was no Jedi restraint here.

Mace Windu was cutting loose.

-

Same for Yoda:

Yoda stretched blood back into his green flesh.

This was his time.

Nine hundred years of study and training, of teaching and of meditation, all now focused, and refined, and resolved into this single moment; the sole purpose of his vast span of existence hadbeen to prepare him to enter the heart of night and bring his light against the darkness.

He adjusted the angle of his blade against his belt.

He draped his robe across his shoulders.

With reverence, with gratitude, without fear, and without anger, Yoda went forth to war.

Anakin almost never fights without drawing upon the Dark Side to some extent; he merely limits it through his restraint. In this respect, he's a tier 9 from the beginning of ROTS.

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#34  Edited By Conterrum2K

@breakofdawn: I don’t think we Are disagreeing here at all. Sorry, I am a bit annoyed right now because certain people repost the same things over and over again without actually addressing what I am saying, not even in this thread though.

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous.“

This is referring to ROTS ani on the IH. The whole idea of the movie is that Anakin uses the dark side to overcome obstacles.

Kenobi and Anakin both get tagged twice by Dooku in the Movie. They are portrayed as equals. This is also true for the novel where Kenobi does consistently better.

When Anakin sees that Obi gets taken out, he pressed the attack.

„You have hate, you have anger... but you don’t use them.“

-Dooku

In the novel Palpatine tells Anakin to use his emotions and let’s go of his Jedi boundaries.

What happens? He BECOMES a 9 and stomps Dooku. Later as Darth Vader he fully embraces the dark side and destroys his Jedi boundaries. He is a 9. a mentally unstable 9 but he never was mentally stable as a 9 on the first place.

In the novel Anakin can’t even explain to mace how he beat dooku. Why? Because he would admit using his emotions/ darkside/ fear.

On MF VADER is a 9. Kenobi gets wrecked in the first half of the fight until he lets go.

After that he can easily parry Anakins attacks and even guide his strikes because he has access to more force reserves.

As Gillard said the difference is between the light and the dark side. Anakin didn’t get more technically „skilled“(because him and Kenobi are the best at their forms ALREADY) only more powerfull. Meaning that in a duel he is faster and stronger. Kenobi matched his skill at the start, however Anakins force blast him through his guard with the dark side amplification and physically outmatched him.

Later, after letting go, Kenobi parries anakins pushes with his own and pushes Anakin himself.

„ The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."

Anakin was hindered, however he was never unhindered as a level 9 in this regard because he NEVER LEARNED that side.

What happens after he stomped Dooku: „I shouldn’t have done it, it’s not the Jedi way.“

Anakin was NEVER a mentally stable 9.

„Anakin becomes a level 9. George knows the levels, myself and George talked about levels and how it was. But it's more, it's not like a black belt, it's more like a Richter scale. So the difference between eight, Obi's an eight, so the difference between an eight and a nine is enormous.„

Anakin becomes a Level 9 in This Movie. We see this against Dooku.

„He took Force LSD. That's what made him a 9. That's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But it's still a nine. It's still something you have to deal with.“

He reaches level 9 when he is in the „zone“ not as base Anakin. Yes base anakin can let go of his restraints, however that means the guilt and doubt will come in sooner or later.

“Obi Wan comes out with a better hand, however I think that is a result or a derivative of Anakins emotions and not being able to focus them and control then which is the root of Anakins inabilities.”

-Hayden(only an actor I know)

Anakin not having learned the mental side is his undoing. Anakin can’t be a base level 9 because his jump to 9 is directly attributed to the dark side/ zone. However even base anakin(kind of Jedi)isn’t strong mentally as in the novel, dooku almost regains the upper hand after taunting anakin. This gives you an idea how much this hindered him.

Not only that, but Anakin who is stated to be the most powerful Jedi ever in the novel, is direcly compared to Kenobi as a base 8. The are comparable. A 9 is not comparable to an 8.

Anakins power vs Kenobis Genius. Base IH Kenobi=base IH Anakin.

We see that in their CW feats too.

„Whether Obi-Wan's legendary cleverness might beat Anakin's raw power, straight up, no rules, is the subject of schoolyard fistfights, creche-pool wriggle-matches, and pod-chamber stinkwars across the Republic. These struggles always end, somehow, with the combatants on both sides admitting that it doesn't matter.

Anakin and Obi-Wan would never fight each other.“

Obi-Wan had to fight Anakin - his own Padawan - in a bitter lightsaber duel neither could win.

Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection #11 wrote:

As far as MF, Anakin was the First to make a mistake in their Duell after he is too slow to meet Kenobis parry in time,

As Gillard said, “Anakin and Kenobi didn’t make a single mistake during their duel, Anakin only loses because he made one, and Kenobi doesn’t make mistakes”:

“Anakin snarled a curse as he realized he’d been suckered, and leapt off his droid at Obi-Wan’s back— Half a second too slow. Obi-Wan’s whirl to parry didn’t meet Anakin’s blade. It met his knee. Then his other knee. And while Anakin was still in the air, burned-off lower legs only starting their topple down the cliff, Obi-Wan’s recovery to guard brought his blade through Anakin’s left arm above the elbow.”

Base anakin=base kenobi

Zone Anakin>>base Kenobi

MF Vader>>Base anakin

MF Vader>>Base Kenobi

MF Vader=MF Kenobi who has let go and accepted that he has to kill anakin.

Sorry for being so confrontational:)

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#35  Edited By Conterrum2K
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This explains perfectly what I mean. He is the most powerful but he does not know how to fully apply or use/ handle this power. In the end, power consumes and uses him.

Power does NOT equal combat skill.

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@uhu123: I explained why he literally can’t be a 9 at base on the post above. He can be but can’t be at the same time. That’s all going to be part of my blog. Anakin can’t be a 9 because than the plot of the movie doesn’t make sense.

Thx for posting though.