Hey Zach; How do you possibly make the biggest movie of all time fail?

This should have been a piece of cake.

Batman.

Superman.

Together on film for the first time EVER.

How in the Hell do you end up making a failure of a product, Zach? Literally all you and the execs had to do was make a non-controversial film that would have appealed to the masses. That's it.

In light of Zach's recent comments and the figures for BvS, I've sort of taken a 180 on my opinion of the current DCEU. MoS is still a very good film in my opinion, but after sitting on BvS for a while, my opinion of it has actually dropped.

This is because BvS could have been the biggest movie ever made. Without question. $1Bil should have been WB's absolute MINIMUM estimation for the film. Instead, it's going to struggle to even break even and will likely settle around $900mil, which pathetic and yes, embarassing.

Snyder doesn't like secret identities. Snyder doesn't feel as though he needs to explain plot holes. Snyder doesn't like super heros talking with each other.

This is the absolute worst news I possibly could have heard about this franchise, and makes me very, very sad. All they needed was to make a easily accepted movie. THAT'S IT! It would have printed billions upon billions of dollars!

Instead, for the World's Finest introduction to live action film, we got a luke-warm movie that I guess is SORT OF passable in some areas. Which is an absolute shame - this movie should have been off the charts.

Snyder needs to go. He's killing a franchise.

"BvS did fine, it was a su-"

No, it wasn't. BvS was a massive failure and a flop. You have to look at the film's potential in order to get an idea of what constitutes a flop or not. It makes $900 mil? Good for it. It should have been in the mid-billions. The fact that they couldn't reach this figure with Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman together in live action film for the FIRST TIME should speak volumes about he quality of who is helming this universe.

Thank Heavens for Suicide Squad. With any luck, we'll actually get a half-way decent foray into this Universe from another director.

Lose Snyder. I want my favorite characters to have Justice done for them. Pun intended.

I-I kinda liked it...

A fundamental misunderstanding of the universe and its characters maybe. I don't know. Still trying not to hold my breath for Justice league. The DCEU subreddit has gone through the five stages of grief and are finally trying to accept Lord Snyder and his almighty DCEU.

@eyedcyou: Yes, Zach's fault.

His art. His direction. His vision.

WB shoehorns in some characters, sure. But they didn't tell him to make a terribly paced film or how to direct certain actors to portray their characters. WB didn't Stitch the film together. WB didn't write the dialouge.

Don't don't tote around the "You just don't know film" card, just because you make Internet reviews on films doesn't make you an authority. A large portion of the blame is totally on Zach's shoulders.

To be fair Warner Bro is also to blame for trying to put in the Justice League, force him to cut thirty minute of the movie which is very obvious from the odd transition and cuts in the movie. If the film would had taken out Dawn of justice and focus more on Superman and how he see the good in people, or at the very least get rid of the bullet sub plot with Louis. They did a good job developing Batman, just not Superman. This could had been a more well received film if it was more focused, also take away doomsday for one of Darkside general, and let the audience know he working for Darkside to make his motive more clear.

That at least what I think should had happened. Also again I think Zack Snyder can make a good movie, and hopefully both him and WB learn from the constructive criticism.

@slayz: He didn't write it. He also didn't 'stitch' the film together. His vision had to be drastically altered due to studio requests. I'm not saying Zack isn't totally at fault, but the majority of it falls on Chris Terio and WB.

@jgames: I just find it really hard to believe that WB spent over $400m to make a movie without them or Snyder ever talking once about how long they want the movie to be only for them to show up a few months ago and to tell him it needs to be 30min shorter which causes the movie to become a complete mess from an editing standpoint. That is just really hard to believe. I think Snyder must have just decided to make a 3 hr version and WB was like 'Zack, I thought we were already clear it should be closer to 2.5 hrs' and when he couldn't get them to budge he cut it down knowing he could have his director's cut version and be able to say 'well, here's the real movie I wanted to make' to try and cover his ass with the fans.

@eyedcyou: Wrong.

Terrio wrote it, but it's Zach's job to translate it to film.

It's also Zach's job to ensure that the editing is up to par. He has final say, so if the pacing and editing was terrible, he should have said something. Blame falls on him here.

His vision was altered due to studio requests? Prove it. I'm curious as to what you're specifically talking about. From what I can tell, all they really wanted was a JL cameo and for the film to be half an hour shorter.

Also, it sounds to me like Snyder changed a lot. During the casting process, Cranston was in the running for Luthor and Eisenberg was up for Jimmy Olsen but Snyder chose to take on Eisenberg as Lex. This indicates the script had a massively different version of Lex and a very different script if it had Olsen appear in a role prominent enough for Jesse Eisenberg to take, rather than just getting his head blown off within ten minutes of appearing.

Should it be a piece of cake?

It's doing well and likely will be the movie to top for sometime. The bar has been raised in story. But your making movies about Jesus and George Washington level figures. Those types of movies don't review well.

I just don't think Superman works as a titular character.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/superman/4005-1807/forums/what-would-make-a-good-superman-movie-405818/

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/superman/4005-1807/forums/will-there-ever-be-a-good-superman-movie-523970/

If you look at pre MoS world they wished for the exact movie that was given. Between being late to the comic-movie party and being the exact thing they wanted was it's only problems.

Would things go better if they did the Gods Among Us opening as a whole movie? Or the George Miller JLA "The movie opens with a funeral before backtracking an unspecified amount of time to Wonder Woman addressing the U.N. and Alfred telling Batman that Gotham's crime has been reduced to "nuisance" levels, which is probably "depression-era Chicago during a heat wave" to everyone who isn't Batman. We ultimately discover that Bruce Wayne is currently in a relationship with a woman who is secretly working with the government and a supervillain to unleash some skullduggerous plot upon the Earth, and the Justice League has to pull together to save the day. The Flash is killed in the process, and the movie ends with his funeral, which is the same one we saw in the very beginning."

Youre massively overhyping both Superman and Batman. Spider-Man is just as popular and he doesn't automatically make a billion dollars with every movie.

OP premise is ridiculous.

Also, movie was pretty good. If you went in expecting a Zach Snyder movie you would have liked it. But you all expected Zach to transmogrify himself into Christopher Nolan or something just because of the source material.

How cute, so naive.

I wouldn't call it a failure. It's a decent film, it's a C/C+. It has major flaws but is still enjoyable and has its redeeming qualities.

The problem is in a world were grade A quality entertainment can be found for free streamed online a decent flick you paid money to see doesn't cut it anymore.

Snyder and WB both are to blame, as much as Marvel and When we're to blame for the lower/unnecessary moments in AoU (Thor's hot tub dip, I'll never accept that). If WB hadn't forced their desire for tie in moments the movie still would have only been decent, because Snyder really wasn't a good fit for what they were trying to do.

I do still like MoS though and agree it was better than BvS.

@kasino: I totally agree that Superman just doesn't resonate well as a titular character any more. He just lacks the personality and draw to be compared to Spiderman or Bats on the big screen despite being iconic. dc is kind of in a box though because he is their second biggest character and ww is prob a distant third. BvS still should have made $1.2b at a minimum though which it most likely won't. The hype was there as seen in the huge opening it had but when people found out it was getting roasted a lot of casual fans just passed on it and figured they can see it on ppv and go see cw in theaters or any number of other cbms coming out this year.

@nickzambuto said:

I for one like the movie and thought it was decent. Yes it was underwhelming and pretty disappointing. But still a 6-7/10 for me. The DCEU is still moving forward and JL starts filming in a couple weeks. It's not like the movie killed it. We can only hope Snyder learns from this and makes a badass JL. But I agree with MoS being a better film.

Nonsense. You look at BVS and you will see that Snyder did what he does in almost all of his movies. Flashy visuals, lack of character development, shoddy story telling, bizarre plot twists, video gamish action sequences. You blame everything on writers. What about MOS? What about Sucker Punch? What about Legends of Owl? Was failure of all those movies the writers fault too? Even best of stories can be ruined by bad execution. Snyder defenders can't always use bad writing as an excuse for his failures. Stop trying to insult others by passing sanctimonious statements such as "Does no one on this site understands how movies are made". We could have excused him if it was only one movie, but this is fourth Snyder movie in row that has gotten rotten reviews. He is not a good director and doesn't deserve anywhere near a franchise like DCU.

Terrio, Snyder, and WB are all to blame here. Terrio's script was full of unnecessary subplots and giant plotholes. Snyder's pacing was bad (still can be partially blamed on the script) and so was the directing for the non action sequences. And WB is responsible for shoehorning in JL characters.

People saying get rid of Snyder but keep Terrio confuse me. Terrio did almost a complete rewrite of the script and the final product was what we got. The script for this movie was far worse than the directing. I could come up with more cohesive and entertaining script in 1 week and I'm not an Oscar Winner.

@spambot: I absolutely agree. Once it got roasted it wasn't going to keep the momentum it had, still is making huge money. How the BO looks in comparison to Civil War is going to be something to talk about. The reviews likely will be good.

Still the roasting is what I was speaking on. No one knows what they want from Superman. No box tho. They just might have to deal with making huge money, being critically hated and being a bar raiser(MoS to BvS is essentially the same as CapWS to CW). I think they know this. WB said their movie was too smart.

@slayz: No, that's not wrong. The script was bad. Only a great director can turn a bad script into a good movie, and there's only a handful of directors talented enough to do that. Zack's is only a decent director.

And you're just helping to prove my point, because directors DON'T have final say over editing or what makes it into the film when working on these massive studio projects. If they did, then the 3-hour ultimate cut would have been in theaters instead. Why do you think it's called a director's cut.

And whenever you have a studio coming in to cut massive chunks out of your movie, it's going to drastically change the vision. If your vision is a 3-hour movie, and 30 minutes of it needed to be cut out, then the final product is going to suffer all over. The massive amount of time spent on teasing the Justice League was at the request of the studio.

@kasino: Since when did BvS raise the bar from MoS? MoS was way better.

As the director of the possibly biggest superhero movie failure once said, if a movie is bad blame the director.

@kasino: WB isn't really making huge money on BvS in terms of profit though. Also the bar raising is kind of debatable I think. Superman is a hard character to adapt I think in today's cbm market because he comes off as kind of corny and lame I think which is why Snyder is trying to make a more serious, gloomy type of Superman but it just doesn't really work. What I mean by box is that dc has no other characters in their stable guaranteed to bring in people to the theater other than Bats and Supes. Even JL I'm no longer seeing as a guaranteed $1b+ blockbuster whereas prior to BvS I figured both movies would come close to $1.5b.

@spambot: Agree, Snyder could had easily made better changes with the editing, and cutting, and should had known WB wanted a pg13 film, but at the same time you know WB is rushing to make this franchise instead of making a good movie. If this was just a Batman v Superman movie, it could had been better, but at the same time is the director job to do what is given and work with it, and he could have done it better. Take away Doomsday, take away Louis side plot, and add in more Superman, and the very least it would had been a better received movie.

If Thor, Captain America, Thanos and Hulk can be adapted to the modern CBM market, Superman can be too. You just need an entertaining story and a good director. Superman had neither.

@from_beyond: None of those(save maybe cw which is really more than just a ca movie) are $1b+ type movies though. Its not that he can't be adapted but he just isn't up there with Spidey, Bats and even Iron man which may be due to bad directing but I'm just really not sure its possible to make Supes movie which would break $1b(BvS I don't count and should have made Avengers type money).

@eyedcyou: The script wasn't the issue with the movie, the translation and direction was.

You're working against yourself; If WB wanted a 2 1/2 movie, why did Snyder make it 3 hours long?

It's on him. Editing and pacing are both his final say, within the allotted time he is given. If he goes over the allotted time, the studio steps in.

Understand? This isn't that difficult. The Director is the head hancho.

Lol. The hate for this film is so massively overrated it's insane.

You people act like it's unwatchable. Half the people quoting editing issues probably don't even know what that means and are quoting reviewers who are trying to sound smart. Most people no who watch movies barely understand what pace is or even notice of a movie is slow or fast.

The film wasn't a masterpiece but most cbm aren't. I had no more issues with BvS than I did with most MCU movies.

But then again I don't look at those through rose tinted goggles or give a shit what rotten tomatoes has to say. I don't need cheap laughs to have fun and I sure as hell don't hate a movie before it comes out beacuse they decided to portray something different than my ideal version of the character.

@slayz: Again, that's not true but I don't feel like arguing anymore.

Like you sad, it may be due to bad directing. Even Spiderman has never cracked a billion.He has never even cracked 900 million . Ironman has done it once after Avengers got really popular. Batman is the only hero that has done it twice without any boost of Avengers like movie. We wouldn't know for sure if Supes can do the same until we get a good Superman movie. But for solo movies, 1 billion shouldn't be a benchmark otherwise every superhero, except Batman, will be called a failure.

@eyedcyou: It's entirely true. If you don't want to debate, just leave and stop wasting my time.

@slayz: zzzz

@eyedcyou:I know right? He wrote the script and Zach was just following it. That is what most if not all of the people here don't understand.

@spambot: they are already 15th in lifetime theater gross. They are fine on the money front. Getting carried by critics isn't gonna happen.

Well they might have to go to characters no one cares about. You can read a billion articles about how one of the main leaguers are their fav characters regardless if they read comics or not. There's expectations on some character. Maybe some lesser known characters. Will get the acclaim everyone wants for DC. I think they are going to do fine with everyone else except solo Superman(but the public will hate if you don't use him).

@silverpool: Raise the bar in the stories being told. The question of how heroes should act is the topic of BvS and CW(one ask this question in their 3rd phase the other 1st.).

I don't know if you can take away Doomsday. Even DKR and DKR2 are not mostly Supes vs Bats fights. It happens just for a bit at the end of both. There's other subplots. Another thing, some say they couldn't follow but it's the easiest if you read comics. You see how he's making way for DC events. If an admitted non reader maybe the dreams don't make sense but everything else is discussed for an hour and a half then fighting.

Man, you're so enlightened! What a free-thinker!

It's not unwatchable, but you're missing my point entirely. A film that should have cleared a billion and a half easily is now not even set to break a billion. All they had to do was make a film that would have been received, relatively across the board, as a good film.

Instead, we got another controversial film with garbage reviews that hurt the life span of the film overall. It doesn't matter if you don't agree with the reviews, because they have an impact on the film's box office standing.

I'm not just quoting reviews on the Internet - the film has massive issues with pacing and editing. The skips between Lex/Bruce/Clark at the start of the film. The cut from Bruce downloading the data to the Knightmare Sequence, followed by the Flash cameo that makes absolutely zero sense to anybody who is not a fan of DC or versed in it. The final fight was just sort of tossed in without any real build up or hint for 2/3 of the film. The death of Superman was shoe-horned in and lacked impact/substance. The parallels between Bruce's Origin/Him attacking Superman could have been cut better to make the link more clear to casual viewers. The Scene with WW viewing the JL files was both cut in an awkward manner and ended up being spliced between Bruce and Clark's fight.

Those are off the top of my head. Want me to dig a little deeper? Or am I just another random guy that doesn't know what he's talking about?

Lol.

@from_beyond: Thor movies don't do well in comparison to everyone.

Hulk doesn't solo anymore despite Incredible Hulk being Nolan great.

Capt and Supes literally have the same take on stories. One has expectations the other didnt. In BO Supes is doing as well as Capt.

@slayz: no film will ever cross 1.5b easily. That notion by itself means you have no idea what you're talking about.

Did the film jump too much in the first half? Yes. But anyone with a average attention span should be able to follow. I did no problem. Perhpas people are just too used to being pulled to sleep and being spoon fed everything. God forbid you have to pay attention to follow along.

The various scenes in there were for the future. Of course they were out of place beacuse the film was trying to do too much. We knew that from the beginning. You knew that going in and now are butthurt when it happened?

I think you need to dig deeper. I hear adding more acronyms like "lmao" or "rofl" at the end of your posts make them sound smarter. Try that in your next reply

so you are smarter than 90 percent of the people out there? the movie didn't tie itself together and put scenes in there that comic book readers had to explain what was happening .Snyder in every single interview he gives pretty much tells us he doesn't get these characters.. I am happy you liked the movie and by no means i am not telling you that you shouldn't but to suggest you are some how smarter because you did like it is crap to be frank...

Keep in mind that the first Spideman movies started in 2002. Adjusted for inflation all 3 would have crossed $1.2b in today's money and prob even more given how much better cbms do worldwide now compared to 10-15 years ago. The last two Batman movies would have also crossed $1.2b in today's market. $1b isn't a benchmark for solo movies unless its Spiderman or Batman but BvS wasn't a solo movie. It was Supes+Bats+WW's first appearance on the big screen and had a huge marketing campaign to go with it. It should have easily crossed $1.2b given that it started out just as big as AoU but just couldn't carry the momentum past the opening weekend.

@fallschirmjager: This film should have easily made $1.5Bil, and $1Bil minimum. See? I can do it too.

Thanks for admitting I was right. Those are all issues with the film, and I'm glad you acknowledge them. It's why the film got absolutely horrendous reviews - most critics found it to be jarring to transition scenes in a hap-hazard and nonsensical way. If the film had simply fixed it's awful editing, pacing, and fixed some apparent plot holes for the audience to follow (Flash's Cameo, Knightmare Sequence), it would have been accepted as a good film by many.

Believe it or not, you're not as smart as you think you are. Just because you enjoyed the hap-hazard method of this film doesn't make it an actual great film.

Do you understand? I don't know how else to explain this to you. It's pretty much common sense that this film has massive issues that hurt its reviews (rightfully so) and box office.

The last two Spider man movies didn't cross even 900 million. Goes on to show that if the movies aren't well received by audience, even characters like Spiderman struggle to crack a billion. Since MOS was a deeply divided movie, it's box office gross is not that impressive. But that says nothing about the potential of Superman. But I agree that BVS is a big financial disappointment. I think they should have made close to 1.5 billions, but now it seems they will have to settle for $850 million.

@from_beyond: I know they didn't but again I feel that was due to bad directing and a Peter Parker that audiences didn't really like as well as some degree of overkill following on the heels of the trilogy of movies which had came right before it. I'm willing to bet Sony's expectations for them was $1b though. Superman Returns and MoS for having come out recently and there having been no Superman movies since the mid 80's showed imo that he isn't that big of a deal on the big screen anymore for today's audiences. The last two TDK movies also crossed $1b and adjusted made $1.2b+. Supes Returns and MoS combined made $1.05b. I'm not sure a Superman movie would cross $1b even if Nolan directed one that critics loved.

@slayz: It didn't fail. I know you're one of the many faceless haters that wants to ride the wave of haters and repeat bull&hit about this movie. BvS was epic. It was a dream come true for me and DC is alive and well as a cinematic universe in case you want to deny that fact too.

@blackdog2009: Faceless haters?... Lol. I'm one of the few people who has been campaigning for the DCEU for years now. I've been called a fanboy more times than not.

But I'm also real, and can spot BS when I see it. BvS was a failure. This was a movie that should have been WB's answer to The Avengers. When you factor in the amount of money they poured into this film, BvS flopped.

*Zack

DCU is well? Boys and girls, that is the perfect example of overstatement. A movie with two greatest superheroes of all time is struggling to even break even. It has been heavily criticized by critics and has mediocre audience reception. And some people think it is alive and well. Mark my words, Justice League will be delayed and Snyder will either be out or heavily reined in.

Superman Retuns and MOS both had lukewarm audience reception, sort of like the last two Spiderman movies did. They under performed for the same reasons Spiderman movies underperformed. I don't think you are in position to say that Superman can't break a billion until we have a Superman movie of Spider 1 or Spiderman 2 quality. Even Batman Begins didn't crack a billion. It didnt get anywhere close. But what it did was establish a good will for batman movies so it was was easy for future movies to crack a billion. Same happened to Ironman 3. Popularity of Avengers shot it's BO past a billion mark. Superman can make a billion but his movies needs to establish goodwill first.

@slayz: OK, let me play your game a bit here. How is it a failure? DEfine failure. Let's start right there. And before I give any value to your criticism, stop with the whole "this should have been WB's answer to The Avengers" thing you just said. Shouldn't 'Justice League' be the answer to the Avengers? Not BvS. BvS is the LEAD TO a JL movie. By that standard alone it already succeeded. A Justice League movie is coming, a Wonder Woman movie is coming, Aquaman, Cyborg, Flash and Suicide SQuad!!! If that is 'failure', then let me learn to fail that way please!!

The Avengers was a culmination of several characters who had the benefit of being built within their own movies. Now, I didn't like several of the Harry Potter movies but that doesn't give me the right to call them 'failures'. It doesn't work that way. Also, be grown up enough to learn to separate what Marvel is doing and what DC is doing. DC is not interested in having a child friendly, witty, light, humoristic, convenient ending superhero movies. They are more mature in content, they stand out with their difference, for better or for worse. Once you keep that in mind and see a movie for what it is and STOP COMPARING! You might have a better way of enjoying these movies. Now, you have the right to be idiotic and go in with that comparing mentality, and act stubborn, judgemental and nonsensical, and STILL, that doesn't make you right about your 'failure' claim.

Now keep the following unprecedented facts in mind!!!! ....

• Zack Snyder successfully brought Wonder Woman to the big screen for the first time in movie history.
• Zack Snyder successfully brought Superman and Batman together (and made them fight mind you) to the big screen for the first time in movie history.
• Zack Snyder successfully put DC's trinity WonderWoman, Superman and BAtman to the big screen for the first time in movie history.

and also...

It's thanks to Zack Snyder that we are getting a cinematic DC universe! The haters screamed to the high heavens: "Noooo, Ben Affleck can't be Batman, that's absurd!" , that was bull. "Nooo, Gal Gadot can't be Wonder Woman, no way" that was bull.

You sir are full of crap! BvS is most definitely not a failure! Snyder has done what NO OTHER MOVIE DIRECTORS have been able to do! Is he perfect? No. Who is? But he's the man. He's done it! He is a master visionary. His resume speaks for itself. You keep on hating. It's irrelevant.

You really thing BVS was a success? Denial at its best.