Avatar image for phantom1527
#1 Posted by phantom1527 (456 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't understand why people hate the fact that Batman has accomplished so much with prep time. Characters like Dr. Doom, Black Panther and Lex Luthor have shown the ability to pull of similar feats with mostly prep time and strategy, but people don't give them nearly the same amount of flack. I understand that Batman is probably the most popular comic book character of the past 20 years (based on movie, comic and video game sales) so he gets more exposure than everybody else, but there are so many complaints about it being unrealistic. Captain America fights and defeats people he should NEVER be able to even compete with, but people still don't complain that much about it. These are comic books EVERYTHING ABOUT THEM IS UNREALISTIC. So why is so much hate put towards just Batman? Also, it makes sense for DC to make Batman be "Batgod" in certain scenarios. He's their most popular character, it would be stupid to not have him win most of the times.

Also, clearly Geoff Johns has a bone to pick with the characterization of Batman because he gives him the worst showings in the new 52. I have a lot of issues with the new Justice League's portrayal as whole in fact. But I digress, I don't want to rant forever.

Your Thoughts?

Avatar image for jphu8414
#2 Edited by Jphu8414 (4044 posts) - - Show Bio

Because frankly, THEY CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH. lol haha

Really though I do agree with alot of what you said, but I think the reason people get annoyed is when some people start claiming that Batman can beat ANYONE with prep and they start really taking it overboard to the point it's getting kind of ridiculous (i.e. Batman can beat Galactus with prep, Batman can solo Marvel earth with prep, etc...)

Avatar image for conradoaccorsi
#3 Posted by conradoaccorsi (339 posts) - - Show Bio

It started with a joke, but people really took it serious, people just can't accept Batman has more fans and is more awesome than their favorite superheroes in other people's opinions, because they're busy thinking that their opinion is a fact. They attack him because he's popular, Green Arrow doesn't get almost no hate, he has PIS too but people just don't recognize.

Avatar image for soldierofel
#4 Posted by soldierofel (2578 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe it's mostly like the above comment mentioned. It was something done by fans who took it out of proportion and now it's used every time. Personally I haven't got much grief with it. It's normal for a warrior and a strategist to plan. However it gets annoying when the plans always succeed. Like the Tower of Babel plans. Yeah bats is paranoid enough to have that sort of fail safe but will it work a hundred percent of the time. You can't just dictate something like that. Plus I personally don't like it when he overshadows everyone with his awe inspiring plans and knowledge when realistically there are far more capable beings. Like the king who wrote plans to invade earth. Or maybe the warrior princess who's been taught how to strategise before batman was even born. Just saying he could be relegated to like a team of planners which have the likes of aquaman and Wonder Woman.

Avatar image for orangebat
#5 Posted by OrangeBat (960 posts) - - Show Bio

Or maybe the warrior princess who's been taught how to strategize before Batman was even born.

Not anymore, she hasn't. Hell, in the New 52, she's actually younger than Batman.

Avatar image for jaken7
#6 Edited by JakeN7 (15180 posts) - - Show Bio

All praise The Lord Batgod, in his name we pray. Amen.

Avatar image for iaconpoint
#7 Posted by iaconpoint (1491 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm a huge Batman homer and even I get sick of hearing, "Because he's Batman!" or "Batman wins!" I love (or has the colloquial term become adore?) him and he's a badass, but he's not invincible.

Avatar image for matteopg
#8 Posted by MatteoPG (1950 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually don't have a problem with it. If you look at the stories, Batman goes through a lot of trouble to gather the necessary intel, before being able to make such good plan. Usually he gets the snot beat out of him once before coming up with the right plan.

It's nice to have a superhero who doesn't have a lot of powers (we have to concede that he is not a realistic human, but he is, like, the best a human could be in a comic book world) and has to rely on planning and inventiveness... if that's even a word.

The only thing that annoies me is how SOME of the fans behave when debating his skill in forums, but that's left to the individuals to be able to debate reasonably without spazzing out.

Avatar image for breadspread
#9 Posted by Breadspread (771 posts) - - Show Bio

@iaconpoint: agreed.

Batman is far more less interesting if he is invincible.

Avatar image for rustyroy
#10 Posted by RustyRoy (16610 posts) - - Show Bio

BatGod rules/

Avatar image for superguy1591
#11 Posted by Superguy1591 (7539 posts) - - Show Bio

Because most of his "feats" aren't really his feats.

Didn't beat anyone in ToB, the League of Assassins did and 3 of his plans made no sense. Never beat Superman at full strength, he beat a nerf Superman and people act like him prepping > the rest of the Justice League.

Avatar image for ultrastarkiller
#12 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (9130 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for i3io_hazard
#13 Posted by I3IO_HAZARD (409 posts) - - Show Bio

Butthurt fanboys mad that batman is a beast

Avatar image for bezza
#14 Posted by Bezza (5019 posts) - - Show Bio

..Well ignoring the predictable responses from Superman fans for a sec, I think its because people under-rate intelligence and intellect, vs brute strength....Bats does well because he uses the old grey matter. He doesn't have super-powers so he makes sure he plans, reads up on his opponents, learns their weaknesses and uses cool gadgets!

Avatar image for youknowwhattodo
#15 Edited by youknowwhattodo (2196 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not a big fan of Batman-prep-time for several reasons. The first of which relates to the Justice League and that is the idea that Batman uses his intelligence to defeat his enemies and the rest of the team uses brute force. I hear this all the time and it really short-changes the other members of the JL. When you read the individual stories of Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman etc., they do actually use their brain as much as their brawn to overcome challenges and they have used pre-battle planning. Wonder Woman and Aquaman were trained in battle tactics at a young age, a key element of tactics is learning about your enemy, so there's no real reason why these characters can't utilize prep time. Not to mention, Batman often times relies on his martial arts and gadgetry to win fights, sometimes he will use planning but I don't know where this idea came from that Batman is the most cerebral member of the Justice League. A common rebuttal is that because these guys are so powerful, Batman needs to find some way to stay relevant hence prep-time, but in my eyes if you have to put down 6 characters to make one character look good, you need to rethink the dynamics of the JL.

The second is this idea that Batman can defeat any member of the JL because of prep time. People almost always cite the Tower of Babel arc but if you've read the story, you know that claim is inaccurate because 1) he didn't beat any of them, Ra's al Ghul did 2) Ra's made alterations to his plans because Ra's thought they were inadequate. The point of Tower of Babel IMO was not to show how awesome Batman is with prep-time but rather how his paranoia can be a danger to the team.

The third mostly deals with his fanboys (not fans). They always rag on characters like Superman because they're OP and too unrealistic to be relate-able but then they sing the praises of Batman by saying he's so relate-able and realistic....and he could beat anyone with prep-time. If a character can beat anyone they want..... how are they not OP and how is that remotely realistic. It's also a little amusing how when one looks at a battle forum and people list the conditions for Batman (for ex. full year of prep) and then have him win, it's assumed to be a plus for his character. But giving Batman prep-time in a battle is giving him a handicap, what type of badass character needs that much help to be effective? It's like the fanboys admit that Batman really can't win a lot on his own, he needs to have this, this and this in order to win. Now mind you fanboys of any fandom can say stupid things, I can point out things that Superman-fanboys say that are ridiculous but the topic is Bat-prep.

On another note, the new-52 really did humble Batman a bit regarding prep-time so it's not as big of a problem as before.

Avatar image for farkam
#16 Posted by Farkam (12017 posts) - - Show Bio

Jealousy and character envy.

Avatar image for superguy1591
#17 Posted by Superguy1591 (7539 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for fil123
#18 Posted by fil123 (677 posts) - - Show Bio

Or maybe the warrior princess who's been taught how to strategize before Batman was even born.

Not anymore, she hasn't. Hell, in the New 52, she's actually younger than Batman.

how old is WW, dont read her comics. Bruce is pretty young in the new 52 being like 31-32 (25 at the start of zero year, formed the JL around 6 years ago)

Avatar image for reactor
#19 Posted by Reactor (4328 posts) - - Show Bio

Personally I like Bat's prep feats, but having heard the more seasoned responses from those that do not, I've come to the conclusion that it is one of several possibilities.

  1. Prep Feats often cater to Batman at the expense of whoever Batman is competing against: Simply put, some people feel like their favored characters are "dumbed down" or subjected to unreasonable PIS in order to make Batman seem more intelligent, cunning, or overall badass. More often than not, people will say this in respects to Superman, and that every engagement Supes either is holding back, fights stupidly, or gets taken out too easily in order to make Batman's efforts seem greater or more terrifying. Personally, I don't agree, I like that Batman "thinks" his fights through when he's facing more powerful foes, but I can also see where they are coming from, and to an extent, I believe they are also right.
  2. Prep Feats are used as a crutch in fights with Batman: This is where the infamous "Batgod" meme probably stemmed from, and I have often heard people say that saying Batman wins "with prep" is more of a catchphrase used when someone can't think of a legitimate argument otherwise. Sadly, this is often the case, and ironically you could say Batman became the victim of his own success. Because Batman's skills in preparation are so famed, some fans don't bother thinking of whether he could actually win a match - in their minds, prep = automatic win against any enemy. Very often, this will be claimed without any real argument, or is simply based on the fact he's beaten certain powerful individuals before, with preparation. Suffice to say, I do agree that with much in this particular line of reasoning of becoming annoyed with BatPrep, but only when it is used as such a crutch.
  3. Batman with Prep creates an automatic one-sided imbalance in a match: Another argument I semi-agree with is that Batman with prep is, by its nature, imbalanced, as it gives one character insight, preparation and readiness, while the other goes in blind. In short, aside from what they'd bring to the table as individuals, Batman would be given every potential advantage without giving the same conditions for the other side. As I said earlier, I somewhat agree with this as in a way, it very well could be seen as giving Batman an unfair advantage. At the same time however, Batman with prep is what makes battles with him so much fun, and is why he can face opponents so much more powerful than him in the first place. Take that advantage away by giving the other side preparation as well, and a battle with Batman can potentially be reduced to a normal guy in a costume vs a demigod in all their glory - and we all know how that would end. Again, this is often argued with Superman vs Batman debates, as Superman has a superhuman intellect and has shown he can prepare well for engagements - thus making a prep vs prep battle between the two a match with an all-too-predictable outcome.
  4. Simple jealously, spite, or disdain for Batman: I've seen this far too often for my tastes - some people are jealous that the character they prefer lack the foundation and feats that Batman has acquired. Worse still, some folks just want to see Batman in a battle where he goes down and get his ass trampled on. These folks are usually easier to spot, as they tend to try to discredit Bats at every chance they get, troll battles with him, or nonsensically back Batman's opponent, whether it makes sense or not. Every so often you'll also find peeps that claim to just not like Batman, and thus hate to see him win anything, regardless of who he's fighting. In my effort to preserve my brain cells, I've kept from paying too much attention to said groups of people, but all the same, they pop up often enough for me to notice them. Important to note is that sometimes folks of this category masquerade as being members of the former, but that's getting beside the point.
Avatar image for lordofthenorth
#20 Posted by LordoftheNorth (1395 posts) - - Show Bio

@youknowwhattodo: iam sorry but this is nonsense at no time does any one think that the other heroes just use brute force what happens is that Batman just out thinks them by using their strenghts and weakness both mental an physical agaisnt them. Yes both Wonder Woman and Aquaman where trained in tactics but their are two major things you dont realize 1. training dosnt mean ability or apattude and 2. they all see each other as friends and as seen in tower of babel what hurt the team most wasnt Batman's plans but that he was so untrusting to go so far to make said plans and yes Batman uses martial arts and gadgets when dealing with the insane who you can prepare for. Batman took them down once this isnt a common thing you obvisaly havent read musch of Morrison's JLA run if you dont understand why people see him as the tactican of the group

No this is wrong Ras Al Ghul used Batman's plans but enhanced them because Batmans original plans where not meant to kill and Ras has no problems doing so but still stand as a feat for Batman becuase with his plans Ra's would never would have succeded and Tower of Babel was not to show how Batman's paranoia can hurt the team becuase guess what Batman dosnt change his ways he comes out and says he would do it again and even when he leaves the team he continues to help them was the team hurt as a by product of his paranioa yes but it wasnt the point

the reason people make the differance is becuase Batman is human so seeing him take down basicaly gods like superman is far more interesting than a god beating on a human. You understand most fans will say just in a random battle Batman couldnt beat Superman thats just relatity so they give Batman time so he has a fighting chance

to your note Batman hasnt been humbled he has been made into a moron and made his preps meaningless garbage with zero thought or effort put into them thus having the character their only becuase of popularity instead of actualy contributing to the team in any way

Avatar image for youknowwhattodo
#21 Edited by youknowwhattodo (2196 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthenorth said:

@youknowwhattodo: iam sorry but this is nonsense at no time does any one think that the other heroes just use brute force what happens is that Batman just out thinks them by using their strenghts and weakness both mental an physical agaisnt them. Yes both Wonder Woman and Aquaman where trained in tactics but their are two major things you dont realize 1. training dosnt mean ability or apattude and 2. they all see each other as friends and as seen in tower of babel what hurt the team most wasnt Batman's plans but that he was so untrusting to go so far to make said plans and yes Batman uses martial arts and gadgets when dealing with the insane who you can prepare for. Batman took them down once this isnt a common thing you obvisaly havent read musch of Morrison's JLA run if you dont understand why people see him as the tactican of the group

In a way you just reworded what I was saying which was that people have this impression that Batman uses his intelligence to beat his enemies and the other members of the JL don't. You really are under-selling the capabilities of the other members of the JL. Let's take Wonder Woman for example, she was trained in battle tactics, but she also has the wisdom of Athena (who by the way is the goddess of wisdom, strategy and skill among other things) so there is no reason why she shouldn't have the ability or aptitude to use prep-time when faced with a challenge in the JL canon. I'm going to ignore that second point because I never said that it's wrong that the rest of the JL doesn't plan against each other, I was talking about in general the idea of planning before action. I'm all for the idea that the reason why Batman has plans against his teammates and they don't is because he doesn't fully trust them, but again I'm talking about to the concept of prep time in general and not teammates using it against each other.

@lordofthenorth said:

No this is wrong Ras Al Ghul used Batman's plans but enhanced them because Batmans original plans where not meant to kill and Ras has no problems doing so but still stand as a feat for Batman becuase with his plans Ra's would never would have succeded and Tower of Babel was not to show how Batman's paranoia can hurt the team becuase guess what Batman dosnt change his ways he comes out and says he would do it again and even when he leaves the team he continues to help them was the team hurt as a by product of his paranioa yes but it wasnt the point

Again that first part was a careful rephrasing of what I was saying, which was essentially Ra's Al Ghul defeated the JL not Batman and Ra's Al Ghul made changes to Batman's plans. Since Ra's made modifications to Batman's plans, you can't assume that it would have worked if he just followed Batman's blueprint to the letter. In my eyes, for a character to be credited with a feat they have to accomplish said feat, not have someone else do it and in a way that wasn't how the credited character for the feat would have done it. It'll open up a Pandora's box if we were to give such a liberal interpretation. The second half of that really doesn't refute what I was saying regarding the essential theme of the ToB, even if he's still going to plot against his teammates that doesn't take away the theme of ToB.

@lordofthenorth said:

the reason people make the differance is becuase Batman is human so seeing him take down basicaly gods like superman is far more interesting than a god beating on a human. You understand most fans will say just in a random battle Batman couldnt beat Superman thats just relatity so they give Batman time so he has a fighting chance

I'll begin by saying that my third point was referring to Batman fanboys not Batman fans because those are two different types of people. But from an objective viewpoint, how interesting is it to have a human character take down super-powered characters if they are given every possible advantage in the fight? My favorite character is Dick Grayson but I do not want to see him beat someone like General Zod if the method of him winning is a result of the people handing him a severe handicap.

Avatar image for kidchipotle
#22 Edited by kidchipotle (15763 posts) - - Show Bio
No Caption Provided

Avatar image for leopryor
#23 Posted by leopryor (398 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not a big fan of Batman-prep-time for several reasons. The first of which relates to the Justice League and that is the idea that Batman uses his intelligence to defeat his enemies and the rest of the team uses brute force. I hear this all the time and it really short-changes the other members of the JL. When you read the individual stories of Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman etc., they do actually use their brain as much as their brawn to overcome challenges and they have used pre-battle planning. Wonder Woman and Aquaman were trained in battle tactics at a young age, a key element of tactics is learning about your enemy, so there's no real reason why these characters can't utilize prep time. Not to mention, Batman often times relies on his martial arts and gadgetry to win fights, sometimes he will use planning but I don't know where this idea came from that Batman is the most cerebral member of the Justice League. A common rebuttal is that because these guys are so powerful, Batman needs to find some way to stay relevant hence prep-time, but in my eyes if you have to put down 6 characters to make one character look good, you need to rethink the dynamics of the JL.

The second is this idea that Batman can defeat any member of the JL because of prep time. People almost always cite the Tower of Babel arc but if you've read the story, you know that claim is inaccurate because 1) he didn't beat any of them, Ra's al Ghul did 2) Ra's made alterations to his plans because Ra's thought they were inadequate. The point of Tower of Babel IMO was not to show how awesome Batman is with prep-time but rather how his paranoia can be a danger to the team.

The third mostly deals with his fanboys (not fans). They always rag on characters like Superman because they're OP and too unrealistic to be relate-able but then they sing the praises of Batman by saying he's so relate-able and realistic....and he could beat anyone with prep-time. If a character can beat anyone they want..... how are they not OP and how is that remotely realistic. It's also a little amusing how when one looks at a battle forum and people list the conditions for Batman (for ex. full year of prep) and then have him win, it's assumed to be a plus for his character. But giving Batman prep-time in a battle is giving him a handicap, what type of badass character needs that much help to be effective? It's like the fanboys admit that Batman really can't win a lot on his own, he needs to have this, this and this in order to win. Now mind you fanboys of any fandom can say stupid things, I can point out things that Superman-fanboys say that are ridiculous but the topic is Bat-prep.

On another note, the new-52 really did humble Batman a bit regarding prep-time so it's not as big of a problem as before.

This. I agree wholeheartedly.

Avatar image for deathpoolthet1000
#24 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (18984 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not a big fan of Batman-prep-time for several reasons. The first of which relates to the Justice League and that is the idea that Batman uses his intelligence to defeat his enemies and the rest of the team uses brute force. I hear this all the time and it really short-changes the other members of the JL. When you read the individual stories of Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman etc., they do actually use their brain as much as their brawn to overcome challenges and they have used pre-battle planning. Wonder Woman and Aquaman were trained in battle tactics at a young age, a key element of tactics is learning about your enemy, so there's no real reason why these characters can't utilize prep time. Not to mention, Batman often times relies on his martial arts and gadgetry to win fights, sometimes he will use planning but I don't know where this idea came from that Batman is the most cerebral member of the Justice League. A common rebuttal is that because these guys are so powerful, Batman needs to find some way to stay relevant hence prep-time, but in my eyes if you have to put down 6 characters to make one character look good, you need to rethink the dynamics of the JL.

The second is this idea that Batman can defeat any member of the JL because of prep time. People almost always cite the Tower of Babel arc but if you've read the story, you know that claim is inaccurate because 1) he didn't beat any of them, Ra's al Ghul did 2) Ra's made alterations to his plans because Ra's thought they were inadequate. The point of Tower of Babel IMO was not to show how awesome Batman is with prep-time but rather how his paranoia can be a danger to the team.

The third mostly deals with his fanboys (not fans). They always rag on characters like Superman because they're OP and too unrealistic to be relate-able but then they sing the praises of Batman by saying he's so relate-able and realistic....and he could beat anyone with prep-time. If a character can beat anyone they want..... how are they not OP and how is that remotely realistic. It's also a little amusing how when one looks at a battle forum and people list the conditions for Batman (for ex. full year of prep) and then have him win, it's assumed to be a plus for his character. But giving Batman prep-time in a battle is giving him a handicap, what type of badass character needs that much help to be effective? It's like the fanboys admit that Batman really can't win a lot on his own, he needs to have this, this and this in order to win. Now mind you fanboys of any fandom can say stupid things, I can point out things that Superman-fanboys say that are ridiculous but the topic is Bat-prep.

On another note, the new-52 really did humble Batman a bit regarding prep-time so it's not as big of a problem as before.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Avatar image for gracetrack
#25 Posted by Gracetrack (4628 posts) - - Show Bio

Because he's Batman.

Avatar image for deactivated-5bf19635a2b53
#28 Edited by deactivated-5bf19635a2b53 (50 posts) - - Show Bio

Because most of his feats are PIS or because Superman fanboys get butthurt

Avatar image for deactivated-5c0937ce9ad57
#30 Posted by deactivated-5c0937ce9ad57 (73 posts) - - Show Bio

Because he beats their favourite characters.