Jeph Loeb stories ( Long Holloween, Dark Victory, etc..)

Does anyone get annoyed with authors like Loeb who integrate every single villain into the stories? It's not that I don't enjoy them but they just seem so much more superficial, and at some point make zero sense.

I guess an example of what I mean is the end of long holloween where every villain was just chilling in Falcone's office, its like wtf?

Again, not that I don't like these stories- I understand the importance, but some people swear by Loeb's writing and claim Long Holloween and Dark Victory are the greatest thing since sliced bread. I don't understand their logic.

@get_reeel: Hush was the same way through there was a pretty good excuse with Jim Lee overseeing art duties.

I tend to agree that the villains come across watered down. However Loeb's interpretation of Calendar Man is still the definitive take in my mind. Probably because he's not very common in most stories.

It's only natural that in stories with only one overarching storyline, instead of say multiple for each villain, that the presence of so many villains would result in many of them feeling somewhat lackluster. Therefore, you've got most of them really only serving to be part of the scenery for a few good shots/action sequences. I think Loeb stands out because of just how often he's actually done this with his stories. At the same time some of the villains really do manage to shine in my opinion, such as Holiday, Two-Face, and Calendar Man (Probably isn't ever going to be a better version of the character than Loeb's). Really, I was never truly annoyed by it until Hush, because there it was a matter of all these villains showing up just to hype Hush up even further.

Long Halloween read amazingly due to loebs writing , and interpretation of the Carmine and Maroni, holiday and calendar man . The inclusion of all of those villians did nothing to harm the story.

Hush, on the other hand, was meh.

@reignmaker: @nathaniel_christopher: ya I agree with you both Calendar Man was awesome. I just wanted to get some other opinions on his style. Like I said, I enjoyed the books but the story lines just seem so pointless when adding all these characters.

don't ever mention the long halloween again

@masterdetective: ohhh did i hurt your feelings

No I get annoyed by bad Writting. If it is well handled, a story with many vilains can be really good.

The thing with Jeff Loeb and Batman is that he wrote Haunted Knight which was bad. Then The Long Halloween / Dark Victory which as good writting. And then Hush, which had poor writting.

I think that those kind of stories work well as a monthly. You get a chapter every month, each revealing a different vilain, and not draging on with the same vilain. But read as one book, you get too much enemies for one finale plot.

Then when you say "authors like Loed", who else do you think of ?

I love The Long Halloween, and for me it's way better than anything Snyder has written for instance (I haven't read King yet and probably won't bother). With The Long Halloween I really engaged with the Godfather style crime story that had twists and turns and a fantastic denouement that blew me away. As a cohesive work, it's stunning.

Dark Victory was a little less thrilling but still very good.

I wish today's Batman writers would construct exciting detective stories like The Long Halloween. They just don't write Batman the way I want him to be, and that's obviously my problem, but I'm tired of these so called 'summer blockbuster' style comics. I want some goddamn plot development and storytelling.

>liking Long Halloween

This is the right choice.

Very true what you say.

I don't really know what you mean by "summer blockbuster sytle comics" and "today's Batman writers" but in recent years we've had:

• Grant Morisson - Batman before Snyder + Batman Incorporated
• Paul Dini - Detective Comics and Streets of Gotham right before New 52
• David Finch - Batman, The Dark Knight
• Geoff Johns - Earth-One
• Gregg Hurwitz - Penguin: Pain and Prejudice
• Peter Tomasi - Batman & Robin
• James Tyron IV - Batman Eternal / Batman & Robin Eternal / main writter + Detective Comics Rebirth
• ...

Which are all in the Top 20 Batman runs/arcs not to say Top 15 or Top 10

I can't claim to be any great Batman scholar, and there have obviously been some good arcs, but if we focus on the main Batman book for the last 6 years or thereabouts, I've been left cold. It seems to be more of a big set-piece style book that tries to tap into the current trend of comic book movies (explosions first, plot second) rather than a slow-burn development of mystery and solution in a literary form.

Snyder has been writing it in this larger-than-life style, and now according to interviews King is aiming for explosions and things that appeal to 12 year olds - so that's 6 years of set-pieces that haven't focused so much on Batman as the solver of clever mysteries. Of course, this isn't the whole story, but it largely is. Look at Zero Year (which felt like Zero Decade when reading it) when the Riddler took over Gotham and closed its borders, with Gotham being overgrown with jungle etc. Complete nonsense, and barely a mystery to be solved by Bruce/Batman even when he's guessing the riddles.

Even Snyder's The Court of Owls, which received pretty widespread praise at the time, was only mildly satisfying as a mystery story.

I abandoned Snyder's run after Graveyard Shift which was what, Volume 6 of the trades? Random stories with Harper Row etc. And of all the stuff I read in the New 52 that's the only time I've dropped anything, and I stuck with it long after I grew to despise it.

I've only read bits and pieces of a couple of the other Batman titles in the New 52, so I'm not qualified to speak of them. But as far as the main Batman title, which is in many ways the flagship of DC, it just doesn't portray the character as I think he should be. Maybe I'm just getting old and want to see him solving complex plots rather than the sort of empty and unlikely nonsense portrayed over the last 6 years of the main book.

And now with what I've read about King's start, it's disappointing, because like pretty much everyone, I love the idea of Batman, the setting, the cave, the costume, the darkness. But I'm just not getting the depth of story that I did find with Jeph Loeb's The Long Halloween.

@rainshadow777: I totally agree that the main Batman serie has been hawfull under Snyder and isn't better with King. But in the exact same time there has been Batman & Robin (vol.2), Batman & Robin Eternal, Penguin: Pain and Prejudice, Batman Incorporated (vol.2) Batman, the dark knight (vol.2) which have been majestic.

If you want suggestions

• In order
  • Batman & Robin - books 1-3
  • Batman Incorporated - books 1-2
  • Batman & Robin - books 4-9
• In no order
  • Batman, The dark Knight: books 2 and 4
  • Penguin: Pain and Prejudice
• Haven't read yet but aclaimed
  • Batman & Robin Eternal - you can read Batman Eternal wich comes before for completion but not necessary

@jb681131:

Thanks for the recommendations. I really want to read something Batman related in Rebirth too but have only heard mixed things about Detective Comics. Any suggestions? I'm going to read trades.

@rainshadow777:Personnaly I prefer waiting for trades. But here is how rebirth goes:

1. It begins with 1 special issue - DC universe: Rebirth
2. Then each title/hero gets a specific special issue - Batman: Rebirth
3. Then starts the new titles all brander "DC Univese Rebirth" - Batman, Detective Comics, ....

I would suggest the first DC Universe Rebirth and Batman: Rebirth.

Then I heard (the trades are not out, so I haven't read them yet) that Detective Comics is better than the Batman title.

Honestly, I don't think the Rebirth stories will blow your mind. I would rather suggest you buy a past storie.

Yeah, I'm across the Rebirth stuff as I made a point of buying most of the Rebirth #1s because I wasn't sure they'd appear in the trades once they hit in January. And DC Universe Rebirth is one of my all time favourite single issues. Geoff Johns, what a star.

I've already resolved to buy five or six Rebirth titles in trades, but I'm still undecided when it comes to Batman. I was all set to go with King's Batman thinking it would be a brave new world free of Snyder, but I thought the Batman Rebirth 1 was disappointing (and I've gone into specifics about that a number of times on these forums). I really want to read a Batman book going forward so I'm waiting to see what the people I respect around here think to help form a decision.

Another factor I need to consider is, which titles are going to elaborate the Dr Manhattan plot. I'm going to be buying the Titans trades for that reason, and I'm thinking the main Batman book will address the Watchmen thing at some stage and I don't want to miss it. I don't know if Detective Comics will deal with Manhattan.

When you say "Batman Rebirth 1", do you mean the special Rebirth issue, or the #1 from the Batman ongoing serie ? If you're talking about the special issue, well, it was written by Scott Snyder :(

Since I recommend buying trades, you will know wich ones include the Watchmen.

I was talking about the one-shot and not the first issue of the ongoing series. I'm not buying anything from the ongoing series because, as I say, I'm trade-waiting and I don't want to double up.

Snyder and King, yep. And I really don't know why they got the old guy to write the one-shot. They should have cut him off at the last New 52 issue and started fresh. Still, by the sounds of it, King hasn't exactly covered himself in glory since getting more control.

I am curious to know what you found exciting about The Long Halloween. As far as a detective story goes, it shows very little of Batman's detective capabilities. Over the course of a year, he is unable to gather solid evidence which points to Holiday's identity and at the end, the revealed identity of Holiday is not hinted at anywhere during the story. I felt much like you when I first read The Long Halloween and Dark Victory, but upon further inspection, one finds it holds little merit. Not to mention Hush...... seriously, no mention of that story need be made. On the other hand, Grant Morrison's run and Scott Snyder's run do indeed have merit. Grant Morrison, over the course of his run, unified over 50 years of material into a single continuity; Scott Snyder bravely and uniquely re-imagined Batman's origin as well as introducing a new foe unlike any other. Your opinion is yours, and I respect it, but give credit where credit is due and that would be to Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder.

Y'a man, do the same. I won't debate here with you because I don't feel like it right now. But Jeff Loeb's writting is way better Snyder's on Batman, even is Hush and Haunted Knight are very bad ! No contest about Morrison tho.

I will debate a bit. "Snyder bravely and uniquely re-imagined" nothing. You are maybe mistaking with Geoff Johns and Earth-One.

I am curious what "you find exciting" about Scott Snyder's run, "it shows very little of Batman's detective capabilities" (Death of the Family for exemple).

"Over the course of [5 years] he was unable to" writte a good plot"

Grant Morrison unified 50 years of material in a great run, but Snyder couldn't write correctly the Joker, Alfred, or a lot of other pre-existing characters. Insteat, he had to create a bunch of disliked characters (Duke Thomas for exemple). Also Snyder can never give a great ending to his story, lots of his fill-in stories are to skip, he over-uses the Joker out of a much large rogue gallery Batman has. He has a habit of doing many pointless crossovers, and make some of his stories drag-on with useless chapters (Zero Year for exemple).

But let's end on a real truth, Jeff Loeb is far from a great Batman writter, a Snyder is even further. Much other come before such as: Grant Morrison, Brian Azzarello, Peter Tomasi, Chuck Dixon, Denis O'neil, Paul Dini, Peter Milligan, Matt Wagner, ...

Man I never cared about who is better writer than who , or which story which story is better than which All that matters is that I'm getting high quality stories .

Jeff Loebs long Halloween , dark Victory and hush are among my top favorite batman books .

Black mirror and the majority of Scott Snyder's new 52 run have been excellent reads as well .

Miller, Morrison , dini and timn for their interpretation in BTAS,Chuck Dixon for detec., and O'Neils run were amazing reads as well. As for the current batman book, Tom king delivered a sub-par first arc, but #9 started off strong and could possibly lead to great story telling . I have no doubts in his writing capabilities (See omega men, visioN, Green Lantern one shot, sheriff, and Grayson ) .

@tcrighton: The Long Halloween was set in a complicated yet evocative Gotham that had the feel of a real society, albeit one entrenched in organised crime. It's got this film noir feel to it that fits Batman.

Snyder was a lot harder for me to engage in. And trust me I stuck with it for ages. I just didn't connect with it, and that's definitely my biggest complaint. Unlike the narratives in Aquaman and Green Lantern, where I felt close to the characters and their journeys, I just couldn't get close to Snyder's character. Plus I found a lot of things he brought in as really unlikely and unexplained. It jumped the shark for me when the Riddler had those buildings domino into each other. Just ridiculous.

But Snyder has his supporters and that's fine. He's just not for me. Loeb, however, had me guessing and excited as the plot developed.

I will concede that some parts of Snyder's writing can be hard to swallow, but overall I found Loeb's writing to be sophomoric and predictable. Maybe it is due to the fact that he was writing in a film noir style, thus I didn't feel the story progressed as a comic should. However, to each their own and I am glad to know we can all fine some Batman story that we enjoy and connect with.

Death of the Family shows exactly how good a detective Batman is. He is able to deduce that Joker is recreating all of their old encounters thus allowing him to actively seek to stop him, unlike The Long Halloween where over the course of a year, Batman is incapable of gathering evidence to discover the identity of Holiday. Also, to your point about Snyder not knowing how to craft a good ending to his stories, I have this to say:

-The ending to the Court of Owls allowed for Thomas Wayne Jr to be introduced to Earth Prime, whereas before he was strictly relegated to Earth 3.

-The ending to Death of the Family allowed for Endgame which has one of the best endings of any Batman story.

-Zero Year was brilliant; the conflict between Batman and Joker was brought to new levels due to the progression of their rivalry from Bruce and Red Hood One to Batman and Joker. It also allowed for Riddler to showcase why he is a deserving rogue in Batman's gallery.

Finally, how can you say that Snyder overuses the Joker? He had two stories showcasing the Joker (Death of the Family and Endgame). Let's look at all of his arcs according to their tpb volume:

-Vol 1: Court of Owls

-Vol 2: Court of Owls/Thomas Wayne Jr.

-Vol 3: Joker

-Vol 4: Red Hood One (not technically the Joker)

-Vol 5: Riddler

-Vol 6: Clayface

-Vol 7: Joker

-Vol 8: Mr. Bloom

So, according to this analysis, Snyder uses Joker as much as he used the Court of Owls; thus, it is impossible to say that Snyder overuses the Joker.

All in all, I'm glad we have Batman stories that we can enjoy, but I would hate for you to discredit or not give credit to the amazing writers working on Batman. And I agree, Johns did bravely and uniquely re-imagine Batman; no one has done a story like Earth One before, in the way that Johns is doing it.

Most of my 'problems' with Snyder's work revolve around my own peculiar tastes.

For instance, apart from not connecting with the storytelling and character, I found a lot of his writing very grim and extreme. There's a level of darkness to it all that I didn't enjoy so much. I'm no lily-livered mommy's boy, and I love the darkness of life in Gotham, but I thought the more horror/gore aspects of some of the Joker's role, for instance, didn't really do it for me. The whole face-off thing etc. Like they were going for shock value or something.

I like the horror material in smaller doses, like Morrison's Arkham Asylum where's it's a bit more artistic.

I'm sure you'll be able to prove through statistics or something that there aren't that many horror aspects to Snyder's run, but that's sort of the tone/impression I got from some of it. It's linked to the style of story Snyder likes to tell and I didn't gel with it.

But again, that's my problem and not Snyder's (or yours). I'm still a Batman flag-waver.

I feel you on Hush.. I like the character but the storyline was so so. But you should go back and read The Long Holloween, theres been a few graphic novels I didn't appreciate at the time and went back to re-read them a and thought to myself "how the hell did I not enjoy this before?"

-ex: Was not sold on Black Mirror when I first encountered it, now I always recommend it to people who want a good detective story, or a Gordon-based story.

Anyway, my point is- go back and re-read the book, see if it sparks something new for you