Is Damien Wayne a Mary-Sue?

I guess you didn't read Batman and Robin today...

@undefined: Shazam joined around his age pre-52

Read some batman comics.... Than form your opinion

Oh yeah, totally. Now he'll join Justice league and make Bruce's life more complicated. And league would welcome him too and this will piss Batman off. In the end Batman and Robin will be at odds with each other and Batman will leave the league. Wow Damian is such a brat, made Bruce leave the league but do you know who was mastermind behind this all? Geoff freaking Johns. He hates Batman and has to keep him in his books because of fanboy pressure. Now Geoff has plotted against Batman to kick him off the league. Dude you're so on point about Damian. /s

@rubear said:

I haven't really read any Batman comics

There's your problem.

So you dont read the comics or know the character by your own experience.

What the Flying Unicorn Cow Kisser was this?

Wow, if they do that, then that will be an even worse decision than female Thor.

I saw the Son of Batman movie, and he was totally a Mary-Sue in that movie. I didn't think it was possible to steal the spotlight from freakin BATMAN. And in the adverts for the next movie, he really looks just as bad. That has ruined any interest I might've had with this character.

The movies arent the comics.

I don't think you know what a Mary Sue is.

wow...I just read the newest issue. it had some pretty big plot twists.

Damian sucks.

You shouldn't base things on what, I think, are the trashiest animated movies DC has pumped out.

He's still beat Jason's ass and stole his stuff.

@comicstooge: which required prep, surprise attack, Jason being tired, and that Jason holds back.

Not that impressive. Even a still.holding back Jason stomps a pissed off Damian in a fair fight.

He and his father (if he stil is after convegence) are mary sues.

Surprise attack is the only part where you're completely true, the prep was insignificant,so was Jason's willingness, and he was as tired as an average superhero after a day's work,that's not an excuse.

Damian beat him fair and square,Jason's only advantage is his size which is due to age, if they were both in the same body Damian would kick him to the curb.

You probably dont even know what a mary sue is.

@entropy_aegis: Yes cause Damian totally has skill feats on the level as one shotting Shiva.......not

@vitalius: How exactly is Batman or Damian a mery sue? I am curious to know.

oh for the love of...... what's with you guys and calling every character that happens to be popular a Mary Sue...jeezz..is Mary Sue the new "overrated"? You think he's overrated then call him overrate no need to use a known trope just to seem more knowledgeable.

FWI, I've noticed, most people here A) don't know what a Mary Sue is B) Think it's a bad thing.

@lxlgiftedlxl:

Characther that most writer wrote as being too perfect and they can do almost everything with their mean and they often lack some personality.

@entropy_aegis:

Mary Sue or Gary Stu (Male Version which is the case of Damien) is poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.

That movie was not a great representation of Damian.

@vitalius: Ok that can be said for Batman and alot of other popular characters such as Superman, Wonder Woman, etc.

But not Damian becuase he has problems and is very far from perfect. He is infact still growing and with each issue he gains more and more personality..

Actually read an issue of Batman and Robin.

He broke his guard and slugged him in the face when both were angry.

And nope. Damian wins. Fatality.

@comicstooge: Jason was holding back. Don't even try to say he wasn't.

Hahahaha,I cant believe you can type that and even think someone will you seriously,I've read every Shiva comic,Jason is an ant compared to the real Shiva,she would wipe the floor with 4 Jason's simultaneously. New-52 Shiva after her Nightwing stint has been getting her ass handed,even Rose Wilson beat her and besides you Jason fans complain about Tynions work all the time,so why is it that you have no problem using those feats?

@entropy_aegis: Rose beat Shiva? Well I guess that makes Jason even better considering he beat Rose.

And idk wtf your talking about, I like Tynions run.

He may have wanted to at the start, but he was clearly attacking before Damian disarmed him. Plus, it was a taser he was using, those things are nonlethal.

@comicstooge: If Jason wasn't holding back, he would have summoned an All-Blade and shoved it up Damian's ass.

Seriously. It would have been that easy. He was holding back. Period.

No. A Mary Sue is a self-insert character that often, but not necessarily, has the traits that you described.

And Batman and Damian don't fit your definition in the least bit.

The OP cant even spell Damian's name and has the nerve to call him a mary sue. As usual the term ends up getting misused because character A is better than character B

Beating a character who loses to every one makes Jason special now? here's a little fact for you Shiva is supposed to be the best of the best,SHE CANNOT BE BEATEN, her entire purpose as a character goes down the drain the moment someone bests her in a fight. You dont even know a thing about the character,the only thing that concerns you is her rep which you are using to push your boy Todd.

Go read an actual comic with Damian in it.

Batman's perfection stems from his obsession which in turn forces him to ignore his own limitations and that has often led to his downfall. Even the last issue of Batman Eternal made it a point to show this,you dont know what a gary stu is, most people dont. You just saw a character who's really good or wins most fights so you went "mary sue".

@entropy_aegis: I have read some Shiva stuff too. And she really isn't that God you want her to be. She stalemated Batman in the eightys, and he wasn't even using gear. Big whoop. She's later beaten by Batman decisively, beaten by Cain decisively, and even has a crappy showing versus Huntress. New 52 Shiva doesn't have these lowshowings, so when Jason, who is way better then you like to admit, cause you're a biased hater, beat her, it makes him impressive, not her less.

And you're an ignorant fool, who Shiva has lost to or not is not my concern, my concern is her character and what she represents. You dont know a thing about her character,you saw some scans on these forums. I'll break it down for for you,Shiva and her fighting skills are one and the same,fighting is her CHARACTER,her skills are not merely tools to use when required.

The only ones who can beat are those who are precisely like her, that's where Cassandra Cain comes in,she and Shiva had many fights which went back and forth,Shiva even killed Cass in one of those fights, Cass only won decisively because Shiva kept giving her more and more chances.

She lost to Saar,an immortal martial artists with psionic powers on the same level as Martian Manhunter, Huntress accomplished nothing,she got her ass beat,you'd know if you'd actually read the comic.

She lost to Batman in a Jeph Loeb comic,that alone invalidates everything.

Shiva's sole purpose in life is to FIND someone capable of beating her,only New-52 Nightwing has gotten her right till now. If Jason beats Shiva then Shiva no longer has even reason to exist.

@entropy_aegis: so basically she can never lose, cause you don't want her to? Pathetic....

Lady Shiva is a very skilled fighter. She stalemated Batman in the 80s because she and him were portrayed as equals. As for the Lobe Fight she was mind controlled and sluggish so it doesn't count. Cassandra Cain is a better fighter than her and Huntress fight was another low showing for her character. Shiva also took on the League of Assassins (Which David Cain, Bronze Tiger, and I think Ra's was there) didn't win but was an issue to them. Shiva was a monster in fighting in Pre-52 because that what she lived for, constantly improving to continue to be the best.

Since New 52 happened they haven't captured any of Shiva's capabilities, they constantly low ball her and leave her featless.

So when character like Jason or Rose beat Shiva there is nothing special they have done because again She isn't the character she use to be.

So basically you want her to lose because it makes your boy look good? pathetic... and it wouldn't even be true as lxlgiftedlxl pointed out there's nothing special about beating a character who's been on a losing streak for a while.

So he needs hax weapons to stand a chance? Lol.

That was just something to save face. Damian stomped him and will again in the upcoming Convergence issue.

Here's the difference between Damian and Jason.

There's this:

Compared to this:

Basically, one Robin played at being a badass, while the other really is one.

@comicstooge: I wish comic vine had a thumbs up system. You sir just made my day.

@comicstooge: quit trying to troll

look up the definition of Mary sue

There is none. That is the problem.

Let me just say this about the topic. A Mary Sue is more defined by the way the world around her treats her than the way she acts.

We know which Robin Batman prefers:

@stahlflamme:

well you can find some definitions of it online if you look, but would't a Mary sue be treated like he/she is always in the right side of the argument at least would't the story present that way along with being the best and having greater skill then anybody else that is what i thought a Mary sue was and Damien doesn't quite fit that role. everyone thought he was doing wrong when he killed people and he is pretty much the weakest robin (excluding the powers that he got ) even when he became batman he did some fuck up things if anything he might be a anti sue ( Look at up its not much better ) i am not saying that he is thou i think he is closer to that then a mary sue

Right, except, that neither has.

1) The only character that could possibly one-shot Lady Shiva, due to skill alone, is Karate Kid, someone who keeps up with kryptonian level characters on a daily-basis, due to his skill.

2) The instance that you're refferring to, was Lady Shiva's lowest showing ever, on all continuities, and it was Jason's highest, and its the reason why no-one takes Jason seriously anymore on the battle threads, people just make jokes about him now, like "jason oneshots, obviously" and stuff like that.

It also toke place on Jason's own title, on which he has been written far above the level on which he's written on the other titles.

3) When people bring up that instance, they conviniently forget to say, that on that same series, a few issues earlier, Lady Shiva had overwhelmed Jason easly and she even told him that she was disappointed with him...and he only escaped due to blowing his helmet on her face, which certainly isn't a skill feat.

And when Jason beat Shiva, he admitted, that she teached him a few special shortcuts, just in case Jason ever faced a opponent of Lady Shiva's caliber (Jason's own words) clearly indicating that Jason isn't as good as Shiva, otherwise he wouldn't need to use them.

4) Also, when it comes to skill alone, even in the New 52, that instance was easly both Jason's best showing, and Shiva's worst...Jason's best skill feat besides that one, its stallemating a holding-back Batman...while Lady Shiva has beaten Batman and Robin together, defeated Nightwing, etc...the inconsistency, its pretty notorious.

5) And for the record, Pre-New-52 Lady Shiva >>>>>New 52 Lady Shiva, at all levels.