If the Batfamily is too large, who should they remove from the cast?

Honestly, I'm of the opinion that Tim Drake hasn't been relevant for a long time now. He was a good Robin and Red Robin was good when Tim's goal was trying to prove Bruce Wayne wasn't dead, but there's just not a lot for his character to do anymore. Damian has superseded him as Robin, as a Titan and pretty much everywhere.

Tim just doesn't fit into the Batfamily anymore. He's not relevant, so to speak. That's probably why writers keep trying to do stuff like make him Batman Beyond or otherwise sideline him by having him kidnapped by Mr Oz. He's only relevant as a former Robin, so he appears in stories where they're all together.

Nightwing will always be a staple of Batman comics. Jason Todd can fill many roles - he can be the black sheep of the family and go off and be DC's Punisher at a moment's notice. Batgirl is obviously an important female presence and caters to a specific demographic. Damian is Robin and a Titan.

So what's really left for Tim? IMO, I think they should retire his character for a while until he actually has something to do. He's not a necessary prescence in the Batfamily anymore and hasn't been for a very long time.

I feel like, as a character, Tim has served his purpose and they're just keeping him around for the relatively small portion of the fanbase who are still really invested in him.

Thoughts?

What they need to do imo is not get rid of any character just the concept of Bat family or should I say the concept of family as has been come to be undertood.

Family is Batman, Alfred and the 4 boys period. Adjust the Batgirls and Batwoman somewhere else. Same goes for Azrael and Batwing. Batman books are not some circus act to keep everyone and their grandma relevant. Tim though should take a break for a while definitely.

While I agree that they should shrink the cast down again, getting rid of Tim seems to me not the right way. He is a character with quite a long and successful publication history, so that I feel that the character and his fans deserve that he gets at least one attempt at a new solo series with an experienced creative team.

And I also feel that it is not such a bad thing to have a more classical Robin as alternative to Damian around. And Damians solo stories are anyway quite different from Tim's, the only character that could fill Tim's old niche is Duke.

Idk why they just don't kill all of them (or maybe just left one - Dick ) with the Joker. Or create one totally brand new character just for that story !

Dick, Barbara, Tim, and Damian are the ones I'm more familiar with the term family. And I guess Jason.

Jason doesn't seem to hold as much relevance to the family compared to the others imo.

Batman, The Robins and Alfred.

I am fine with Tim since he is an adopted child of Bruce and he has been in some cool stories like Hush. I agree he isn't relevant though. My least favorite is Batwoman. She is just an unnecessary character, and even though she is related to Bruce I'd have her be the one removed. Stephanie Brown is someone I don't mind but I wouldn't be mad if she was removed either.

DC Should Keep: Batman (duh), Catwoman, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Nightwing, Tim Drake (and make him Robin again), The Huntress, Alfred (does he count?) and the most well known supporting characters should be kept too, like Jim Gordon.

DC Should Get Rid Of: Damian Wayne (he never should have been allowed to be created in the first place), Jason Todd (he also should have stayed dead, his return made the entire story of him dying pretty pointless), Batwoman, Every Batwing character, all the ex-Batgirls, the new Signal character that Batman has taken under his wing, Gotham Man, Gotham Girl and every version of Azrael.

Get rid of Damien and Stephanie for starters.

Get rid of Tim, Kate, Luke, Duke and every other character created or elevated after 2011; put Barbara back in the wheelchair and make Steph Batgirl.

Damian, All Batwings, Bluebird (I like her but still), Gotham Girl, Spoiler, Batwoman, Azreal (Maybe have him operate on his own), Clayface (Pretty weird choice for a hero. Although I don't hate it it just doesn't seem to work. Freeze would've worked better) and Kathy Kane. Also keep Jason dead. If Julia Pennyworth counts then she should go as well

Batman, Alfred, Nightwing, Batgirl (Cassandra), Oracle, Huntress, Duke and red Robin should all stay.

The Bat family needs to be trimmed down a bit for sure. Tim has been irrelevant for quite a while but he still deserves a place in the Bat family. They should sideline him a bit, not give him that many appearances unless he really needs to make one. They should also get rid of characters like Harper Row, Duke and others that have no place in the family.

Kate should be sidelined for a while as well, Barbara should be put in the wheelchair again, they can remove Steph from the Bat family as far as I am concerned and the Batgirl mantle should be retired for a while. And as much as I love Cass, her story as Batgirl has been told, she looks good and is really good as Orphan.

@riddlersriddle: Red Robin and failed Robin should stay but not Robin and Red Hood?

Overall there will always be a Robin, Batgirl and Nightwing. There will also always be a wildcard character or black sheep which today is Red Hood and honestly it looks like its his position forever. Batwoman and Batwing will exist for representation.

So logically this should be the basic cast. Red Robin, Signal, Orphan, Spoiler, Blue Bird, Huntress and Azrael are redundant from a marketing standpoint. DC doesn't care about characters, they care about marketing niches.

That said I think Babs as Oracle has more marketing potential than the others. So they're kinda wasting that but I do understand why they want her to be Batgirl even if I could care less personally.

Damian being son of Batman could create one in the future when his tenure as Robin ends. Which is why I hope Priest isn't boneheaded enough to mess with that.

Everyone else is expendable.

@entropy_aegis: What can I say I've got a soft spot for Tim, lol. Although I really like Red Hood, Jason's death would have had a lot more impact if he actually stayed dead and Red Hood doesn't really feel like an actual member of the bat-family a lot of the time.

I both agree & disagree about your point with Tim being redundant when it comes to marketing. On one hand, he's pretty popular with fans and could bring in them but on the other he's not that recognisable to those who aren't as "well-versed" in the bat-mythos.

As for Damian, he can create some interesting story-lines but most of the time I just think he's pointless and annoying. Personally, I think he'd work better if the batman-beyond universe as the future more violent Batman or something (Although that's been done several times with different characters before).

@riddlersriddle: I think Jason works in the same spot as Azrael and Huntress. With his history as Robin he can exist as a more powerful figure than them.

If they cant market his popularity then he's kinda redundant no? Worse they seem to have just given up altogether.

@entropy_aegis: Yeah I can see what you mean about Jason and I do like Red Hood but sometimes I think that we might've gotten some interesting stories if he stayed dead (Or at least stayed dead for a bit longer).

Characters I deem mostly unnecessary for the Bat-fam... or Bat-farm as long as there are so many:

• Damian: He's just a pint sized Jason with a chip on his shoulder the size of Montana.
• Jason: As a matter of principle, I don't like to see a genuine Bat-wearing member wield pistols and use deadly force. Make him dead again, a villain or just send him away.
• Batwoman: Tbh the only reason I really get that she is here is as the diversity member. I liked her original New 52 run where it was all about the weird stuff Batman doesn't deal with, but clamp her with 'bad dad' just makes her another one like Jason, Cassandra, Damian (uncle in his case) etc.
• Batwing: Iron Batman needs to get lost or go hang out with Steel.
• Barbara Gordon: I'm hesitant about this one to be honest, but I just don't feel she adds anything other than being 'the girl' of the group. I still maintain she was a better character as Oracle.
• The Signal: Him, Bluebird and all the other runts Snyder has come up with... they can go far, far, away.
• Azreal: I liked him better when he was a religious nut.
• Catwoman: She's a character that to me only works when she is at arms length.

(Note: I dont really count the various support cast members like Jim or Alfred as members of the family since they dont take to the field, nor do I count Barbara's playmates from BoP as members since they don't really have anything to do with Batman or Gotham beyond their dealings with Barbara, same goes for the Titans and Teen Titans)

So you keep the following as the core:

• Batman (obviously)
• Nightwing (the prodigal son that grew up to be his own man)
• Robin / Tim (the protegee)
• Batgirl / Cassandra Cain (the one seeking redemption)
• Oracle (preferably Barbara, the dataminer)

I'm of the belief that Tim should have a solo book for himself where he just travels the world doing stuff like in the Red Robin run. (I know he was looking for Bruce but still)

Tbh I like a big batfamily. But I think the New 52 overdid it. Luke Fox was a nice adition as Batwing, but Harder & Duke and that Talon guy, and now Azrael and even Clayface? Too much.

Keep the 4 robins and the 3 batgirls as a main part of the family. And Batwoman, Flamebird, Batwing & Huntress, as like a more distant part of the family.

Take out Azrael ( he really did not need to be brough back ), Talon ( thankfully he's been mostly forgotten about ), and Blue Bird & The Signal are shitty ass unneeded characters that snyder should have never added. Oh and take out Alfred's daughter, who even cares about her?

Edit: AND TAKE GOTHAM GIRL OUT TOO.

Take out Jason. He shouldn't be part of the bat family. He's better off on his own, kinda like his Pre-52 version. His methods and tactics in dealing with crime don't and will never fit in with the rest of the bat family. Make him a solo character, a good distance away from Gotham and the Bat Family.

Your nuclear family is the people you live with and interact almost daily. Not even your distant cousin or your cazy grampa uncle you only see 3 times a year is your intimate and most important family members. So yeah. Bruce and his boys and his adopted father. Barbara too, but she is more like your neice that is also your neighbor. And thats's it.

And Tim Drake is not irrelevant. Damian and the editors at DC made him so.

But if I needed to pick only the essential:

-Batman,

-Robin(Richard Grayson),

-Alfred,

-and Batgirl(Barbara)

This has been true for almost 80 years and for a good reason.

Oh, and the dog too. (Ace)

This is pretty much true. they may still throw Tim Drake merch out now and then but the majority of people either dont notice or don't care too much whereas the rest you mention are almost complete non entities.

btw, what are your feelings on Tim's recent developments and his new costume/codename?

batwoman, they should remove batwoman

@assassinb: Tim is still irrelevant despite Damian being practically banished from Bat books while Tim stars in a flagship Batman book written by his own fanboy who has given him his old Robin costume, romance with Steph and writes him like he's the main Robin. Tynion has done everything he can, important stories(supposedly), a major platform, nostalgia, wankery, creating a niche, pretending he's Robin and it goes on. Tim Drake as a character has simply:

A) Outlived his usefullness to Batman mythos. Damian only partially contributes to this, Jason's return and reformation also has had an impact on Tim. Creation of the likes of Duke and Harper as well. Even Dick Grayson exacerbates the issue . During the years Tim was hot Dick was being pushed by DC as his own man type character. Now he's treated as Batman's direct successor.

B) Has lost the fun aspect in favor of misguided attempts at realism and relevance.

Now Tim has lost everything. There's no dead Jason Todd to use as a stepping stone, he's not Bruce's successor, neither direct because that's Dick nor in the future as that's Damian, he's not Robin, he doesn't have a unique edge, he's a middle child, he's not fun anymore. Moreover he's not modern which was his biggest strength when he was created as he introduced Robin to a new generation and revamped the role. Its been 3 decades since and he has a replacement, I would even argue multiple replacements.

@avenging_x_bolt: Nostalgia driven stunt to recapture the glory days in which Tynion has failed miserably. I've seen Tim fans hate what Tynion has done and many have sunk in to despair. Its one thing if Lobdell ruins him over in TT. But a loverboy like Tynion writing his homecoming in a flagship Batman book should have logically speaking been a return to form. Instead its just meaningless. Tim even copied the other Robin's formula for success and still fizzled out.

Dick died in a major story like Foever Evil and got Grayson and then returned as Nightwing. His tenure as spy and return to Nightwing were both major triumphs which the comic world talked about.

Jason's story from DITF to UTRH speaks for itself.

Damian died in the final phase of Morrison's Bat epic, returned in a major storyline then went to star in his own ongoing then later Super Sons and a resurgent TT line. All major developments.

Tim's capture by Oz held the promise of greater ties to Johns Rebirth story which is currently being written in Doomsday Clock. But obviously that never happened. Lonely Place of Living was meaningless, a huge anti climax. Tim might as well not have "died" because nothing has changed for him.

I think the big problem is that Tim didn't got a book that followed up on his return (unless DC just hasn't announced it). With out a solo (or a team book like with a very small cast like Super Sons or RHatO) they want to get him back on track.

I think that's in general a problem with Tynions attempt to push the "Gotham Knights" without any book to go to, there is just not much of a point to it.

@entropy_aegis: We can all like our preferent Robin I guess. As long as there are people that like Tim Drake he is not going to be irrelevant. Just like you mention Damian. Many people think a "blood son" is pretty useless. In fact, many people precisely resent Damian Wayne because they feel he pushed the other Robins aside. But that dosen't make Damian less usless or necessary.

The same is true for any character, even if they don't bring anything new. I personally only like Richard Grayson as Robin. To me the others are only copycats of the original and are pretty much unnecessary. Just like the many Batgirls. But there are many people that like Stephanie, Cassandra and even Carrie Kelley. Some people even like Duke Thomas, some don't.

The problem I think is that Batman is a very old character. And on this days we have a generational gap more evident than before. And people is always going to love what they know most. Newer generations like Damian, Jason or Tim more. Other people loved the old Batman crew as it was. And others love the stuff of the 80's and so on and on.

And well, like many on this forums I agree that DC is doing a poor job at maintaining and giving relevance to the many diverse and different characters they have. I also think the writers themselves aren't familiar with said characters. Many are younger writers the same age their readers. And perhaps they grown up with their own favorite characters and with their own personal veiws on them.

Tim Drake is a fan favorite from the 90's and many people in their 30's or early 40's is still going to like the character. Imagine people in their 60's and 70's!!! Do you guys really think they are more likely to know or care about someone called Bane? or Damian? or Duke Thomas? lol no!!. There are maybe some of them of course, but only true super-geeks love that suff. I don't doubt they exist. Yet, this is not consistent in reality, because people in their 20's today can love the old characters from before and hate the new ones, anyway. And vice versa.

Maybe DC instead of making their own characters compete for attention with their public and condense everythig into one "canon crap", they should look more into this gap and fix it with alternate realities or somethig lol. But we know that never truly work. We seen what they do.

Your mom.

Except its not about my preferences or those of other fans. Its not about who or what fans think is useless. I already explained that its about marketing. DC can market Nightwing, Red Hood and Son of Batman (so no its not useless), what do they market Tim with? Mr 199 IQ mastermind? lol Tynion even tried it and failed and if they cant market him then he's useless. They're a business at the end of the day, they dont exist to cater to Tim fans from 2 decades ago.

This resentment you speak of doesn't really exist, its just entitlement from specific quarters. Jason and Dick have been more relevant than they've ever been. If Damian gets good stories in comics then its simply because his writers are capable of writing good stories. Resenting a character for getting good stories is meaningless. Its like hating Batman for getting good stories, pointless really. For example Morrison is going to write Arkham Asylum 2 with Damian and that book is going to be mammoth hit whenever it comes out even if its only 25% as good as its predecessor. Entitlement that it doesn't star another Robin will change absolutely nothing. DC cant force Morrison, Tomasi etc to write stories with Tim or another Robin. By that logic Damian fans should resent Tim because Tynion used Tim in Tec while completely ignoring Damian or maybe they should resent Lobdell for writing Jason in his own book.

With regard to mainstream media:

Jason Todd in other media before Damian's existence=0

Jason Todd in other media after Damian's existence= Under the Hood, Arkham Knight, Injustice 2 and Batman Ninja

Tim is the same as he always was, nothing has changed. Damian's addition has had absolutely no impact on Tim. Tim had 2 decades before Damian to make a mark in animation, film and games it didn't happen. Even when he shows up he's a token generic Robin.

Dick is getting a movie and a live action show and he has enjoyed consistent exposure in animation.

What you say about writers and generations is true for any era, its just what it is. But characters can catch up, you mentioned Bane. Go to Wiki and you'll find that Bane has a completely separate page just for his mainstream media appearances, he's THAT exposed. He's absolutely on par with Catwoman, Riddler, Penguin and Two-Face in terms of recognition and iconic status despite the former having more than a 4 decade head start. Harley Quinn is another example, she's on par with Joker at this point. On other hand, type Tim Drake on Google and see the (rather appalling) results for yourself. All these characters were created in the 90's, it just goes to show that for characters to stay relevant they need to evolve and be marketable. Tim is stuck in the 90's, a receding fan base isn't something DC is go big in investing on and nostalgia can only carry you for so long.

Again its about marketing, characters can be diverse and different but if they cant market them then it amounts to nothing, alternate universes aren't going to change that. Even in alternate universes they focus on the marketable characters, Marvel's Ultimate lines for instance focused on the Avengers, Spidey, X-Men etc not Black Knight or Prowler. Black Label Bat books are about Batman not Stephanie Brown.

Duke

Luke

Cass

Kate

Steph

Tim

@riddlerfan77: Shhh, dont let a SJW see your post otherwise you'll be accused of racism, sexism and homophobia in one go.

Lol but in all seriousness these characters have pretty much outlived their usefulness.

@riddlerfan77: I have no issue with them doing their own thing and if down the road a Batman writer feels that they can serve their story for Batman then by all means they can use them.

But dont force the personal stories of these characters in to actual Batman books which rely on Batman financially but screw him over.

For now yes they're not important to Batman. Its not Batman's job to keep these characters in print.

I'm pretty much agreed. Duke has pretty much outlived his usefulness [Not that he had any to begin with, nobody cared in the first place], Tim is the one Robin who serves no role at all, Cass should never have been brought back and Steph and Kate have done nothing. Put these guys elsewhere as you said they don't matter in Bat-Books anymore.

@comicstooge: camion and Tim, Barbra batman inc just make it batman and Alfred to patch him up, mabey Nightwing but then the people will feel like they can make a new bloated mess with just one more character, then another, then another and we would be back to square one.

lol, you dont want Batman to "serve" these characters...but you want these characters to "serve" Batman, hum...

I for one dont see how having Duke Thomas, for instances, jobbing to Batman do Batman any favours...sounds kinda redundant even...or how he could "serve" Batman's mythos...as for which characters have the most interactions with Bruce, 90% of all fans that are bat-family fans are or were primarly Batman fans at one point (like me, Batman was my fav, until Cass was came into play in 1999)...so we all want to see our favs sharing panel time with Batman (quality panel time, which depends on the writter), but i for one wouldnt mind having Cass doing solo adventures, or even being appart of a team and working independent from Batman, being him with only from time to time (like i said, quality over quantity)...i cant deny that i would like to see Cass showing up more on the Batman title (with a diferent writter, obviously, right now it would be horrible), but as it is on Tec' im happy, and if a Outsiders Book its her future, then i'm fine with that as well...i dont need to see Batman on every page while im reading a book with Cass on it.

Only the robin's are in the main bat books constantly .

I really don't see a problem at all with the Batfamily's size at all. People act like the Batcave is constantly overflowing with all these different vigilantes in the same place at the same time, but it's really not like that at all. Interactions between the members aren't that common unless they're in a series together, like in Detective Comics Rebirth.

I also don't get why people think a character who doesn't have much of a current direction should be retired and never used again. If that were true then so many comic characters wouldn't be nearly as popular as they are today. Batman was losing popularity in the sixties and almost got cancelled until the Adam West show boosted his popularity. All it takes is one good writer to make a character relevant again, that is if they're even irrelevant to begin with.

I would love to see Tim get his own solo series again. His solo Red Robin run was fun to read imo.