Debunking Batman Myths #5 - Batman doesn't belong in the JL

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Anjales_II

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Continuing a series that aims to debunk false preconceptions about the character. The following post aims to discuss Batman's place and relationship with the the team known as the Justice League. If Someone said.

The JL are dumbed down to make Batman look good / Batman shouldn't stand next to powerful characters like Superman and Wonder Woman

As done in previous, let get the obvious, DC Editorial answer out of the way. The main reason Batman is in the League is because he's DC's most popular character, and the book wouldn't sell nearly as well without him. That's just facts. Now, since this is character centric we'll dive a little deeper.

Why Batman belongs in the League

Firstly, let's discuss why Batman is in the League and why he has earned his place. The JL is supposed to be made up of the DC fictional world's best heroes. Fact of the matter is, considering what Batman has done for Gotham alone (not even counting the worldwide schemes he's taken down) as discussed in more detail in article #4 regarding Batman's effectiveness, Batman definitely fits the bill just as much as The Flash, Cyborg etc... Not only that, Batman himself is used as a sort of plot device justifying the league's functionality. Without Batman, how else could you justify the WatchTower, a high tech satellite fortress in space or the advanced technology and resources used in by the league? certainly they cant afford that on Clark Kent's reporter salary and there's only so much stuff he could bring from his fortress of solitude...

Now, you might say," just because he has lots of money and can take down muggers, crazy clowns and guys who like to wear question marks doesn't mean he's qualified to fight the likes of Amazo, Darkseid and the Anti-Monitor". Well, I hate to break it to you, but he's just as qualified as Superman, The Flash and the others. Why you may ask, because if we take each JL member on their own merits, the same argument could be made for each and everyone of them. Darkseid is basically the League's premiere villain right? Ok, do Captain Cold, Grodd, Cheetah, Zod, Lex Luthor, Deathstroke, Sinestro, Ocean Master or Black Manta etc.. really stack up to the threat he poses? No not really. Not just in terms of pure physical strength, but also in the overall scale and capabilities of his schemes. But that's the point of having a League, because individually they are all no match, but together, the combination of their respective skills and abilities can be just what is needed. With that in mind, what does Batman bring to the table? Batarangs and smoke pellets just aren't gonna cut it when it comes to the Anit-Moniter right? Well, as we all know, Batman has much more than that. In his own stories, Batman is written as being a billionaire, a brilliant detective, and a tactical and intellectual genius. These are basically core character traits for the character. Therefore, if he bring any less than these core capabilities in a grand scale JL story would simply be out of character. With that in mind, why shouldn't Batman tell Superman to use his heat vision in a specific way to achieve a particular goal, or to tell Flash to vibrate at a particular frequency to serve another particular goal? It's part of his character to know this stuff. That's not dumbing down the others, that's him being written in character. If he'd put all his intellectual prowess in solving gang wars and the spreading of fear gas in one city, you would bet that he'd triple his efforts in solving some sort of complex widespread scheme that the JL usually face. But one might say, that certain threats are simply out of Batman's league, and suppose they are, do you seriously expect an in-character Batman to just sit back and say "screw it, i'm not used to this crap, let Superman handle it"...no! Batman would never do that. Let's go back to Batman's core traits. He's character who usually goes to break his limits and do everything he can to achieve his goals, and if you are asking for Batman to bring anything less to the table in a JL story, then you are asking for the writers to write Batman out-of character to make the foe or his allies look better. In that case, you are asking the writers to "dumb down" Batman, and so the problem isn't with Batman, the problem is with you, and maybe you shouldn't be reading Batman then...

Now on to the big fat elephant in the room...

Other character are dumbed down to make Batman look good and vice versa

Firstly, I won't deny that the "dumbing down" of characters does indeed happen in comics, and overall storytelling in general. That's how things are and that's a formula that writers have utilized for many years and will continue to do so. And in JL stories, whenever one particular character is put in the spotlight, that particular character will automatically be made to look better than his colleagues, whether it be by having that character demonstrate stronger feats than what readers are usually used to, or simply downplaying the other characters to contrast them with that that one character. Whether it be Batman or anybody else, someone is going to look good at the expense of others.

Let's take for example the the JL story arc Throne of Atlantis, which put Aquaman in the spotlight. Guess what? Aquaman was made to look better than the entire League. Ocean Master, the villain, was capable of one-shotting both Superman and Wonder Woman at the same time, while Aquaman went toe to toe with OM in the climatic battle and eventually even one, even though Aquaman isn't as strong as Supes and WW. That's a case of the spotlighted character, this case Aquaman and his archnemesis, being made to look better the rest of the league. Batman is usually known to be the more controversial member of the team and the one who sees the grey area and uses questionable tactics. Yet, in this story, even Aquaman took that role from Batman, having basically gone against the League, having made contingency plans against them (ironically, Batman was also of Arthur's primary targets, which shows how much of an asset Batman truly is to the League). Not bashing the story, just pointing out how Aquaman got this treatment without any fan outrage, but when Batman gets this treatment he is either called OP or that other characters are being dumbed down for his sake.

Let's get out of the JL for a bit, even in more Gotham-centric stories, when one of the Robins is being put in the focus, Batman is usually portrayed as harsher than he usually is, or unlikable or even some of his humanity is stripped down, all in an attempt to make Robin a more sympathetic and likable character. One such example, Nightwing Year One, written by Chuck Dixon, a veteran Batman writer who has written some classic stories and definitely understands the character. In this case though, in an attempt to make Dick Grayson more sympathetic, Batman was made to look like a big jerk, a bigger jerk than how Dixon usually writes him at least, again all to make Grayson the more likable and justified character. Even when facing some of his villains, Batman has been made to look less efficient to make his enemies more threatening. How many times has Joker been made to look superior to Batman to progress a particular arc? How about that time Batman got outsmarted at every turn by a girl in a slutty playboy bunny outfit? Stories like Knight Terrors, Officer Down and Going Sane (quality aside) are examples of stories that have mis-characterized Batman to add more depths to supporting characters or villains.

One final infamous example is a story arc that many hardcore batman fans dread. It's the crossover story arc called Forever Evil. In that story, the stars of that story were the villains. The point of the story to make the readers root for "relative" bad guys like Lex Luthor, Black Manta, Black Adam and Captain Cold against the worse bad guys, the Crime Syndicate. So, as you can tell, Batman doesn't exactly fit the bill, but was included due to his popularity, yet was portrayed extremely poorly. He simply served to make Luthor and the others to look good. In other words, he was "dumbed down" to make Luthor's League more formidable. So the merit of what I'm saying is, Batman is as much victim of being dumbed down as others, like I said above, that's an unfortunate formula used by writers, and so it not a fair preconception to label Batman as the reason your favorite characters don't look as good as they do in their own books. It's just one of the prices of team centric arcs.

Final point..

Batman is a bad character for making contingency plans against his friends

So this is sour point for many JL fans. How dare Batman back-stab his friends like that? This is in reference to storyarcs like Tower of Babel or the movie JL: Doomed. First and foremost, those stories were intended to be controversial and to spark debates. You were supposed to discuss the moral righteousness of Batman's decision to plot against his friends. That was one of the core aspects of those stories, which were later explored in the stories themselves. So to act like Batman's acts are supposed to be some sort of editorial mistake or an attempt to make Batman better than his colleagues is a poor and half-minded claim. Fact of the matter is, whether or not Batman should remain in the league after that breach of trust was subject of debate among the leaguers. Some of them sympathized with him and forgave him while others weren't so kind. Fact is, that was supposed to be a polarizing aspect of the story and so, choosing to criticize Batman for his plans doesn't put you on a pedestal nor on some higher level of fandom or bigger claim to righteousness than other fans, you simply chose one side of debate intentionally sparked by the writers. With that in mind, was that characterization in-character for Batman? Yes it most certainly was. Remember those core characteristics we spoke about earlier? Well, one such is the fact that Batman is no boy scout and is more than willing to use questionable tactics for the greater good, and always prepares for the worst and tries to stay ahead of the game. In his career, Batman has seen his share of weird stuff, and has seen good guys turn bad, whether it be because of some horrific accident, psychological scars or just good old fashioned mind control, why shouldn't he believe that his fellow leaguers, who just happen to have some amazing abilities, would succumb to those same circumstances? I'm not here to discuss whether or not it was "right" from a storyline point of view, that is subjective and is for another thread, but it definitely does not violate the characters core traits. Even the other characters weren't truly hurt by these plans as far as characterization is concerned. Had they overcome these plans on their own merits, it would have nullified the point of the story itself and hurt its quality. This also opened the doors for deeper characterizations, namely for Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Superman and Kyle Rayner. Aquaman actually revealed that he had his own contingencies, Superman while fully accepting the notion of preparing for him in case he turned (after-all he gave Batman the k ring as symbol of their trust and friendship) actually had issue with violating the others' trust. Kyler Rayner, who was still a relative rookie, started taking superheroics more seriously and realized that it's not just black and white. But most intriguing of all, Wonder Woman, who was deeply hurt by Batman taking advantage of her psyche and demanding him being removed from the team, despite the fact that the two are extremely close (with romantic implications) but also, forced Diana herself, a proud warrior, to come to terms with her own weaknesses and mortality. Looking back at these character studies, how can one say that these characters were "dumbed down" or made to look bad for Batman? Batman's controversial (yet totally in-character) actions opened the door for these intriguing character depths and story-lines.

What do you guys think? Any other Batman myths to debunk? let me know in the comments

Other Entries:

http://www.comicvine.com/batman/4005-1699/forums/debunking-batman-myths-1-batman-is-op-1711520/

http://www.comicvine.com/batman/4005-1699/forums/debunking-batman-myths-2-batman-is-crazy-1711522/

http://www.comicvine.com/batman/4005-1699/forums/debunking-batman-myths3-batman-is-a-child-abuser-1711524/

http://www.comicvine.com/batman/4005-1699/forums/debunking-batman-myths-4-batman-is-ineffective-for-1711545/#13

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Enzo991

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#2  Edited By Enzo991

Nicely put. However, people mainly get salty when Batman is shown to be the smart guy of the group, especially when compared to Superman (as some think that Superman would be a better detective if he really wanted to), or when he is shown to be a better overall fighter than say Wonder Woman (who many believe to be the world's best Martial Artist based on a comment Batman himself said).

These problems in my opinion are mainly the result of two things. First, the fact that the power of the characters' gets exaggerated in their own titles, like Superman being a super intelligent almost omnipotent being in his own books, with access to absurdly powerful alien tech, or Wonder Woman shown to be overall much tougher and her martial art prowess getting touted as the absolute best. So when it comes to the JLA books, where every character is supposed to be useful, many of the more absurd aspects of the characters don't make it into the story, and that usually causes the fanboys to rage. This is in sharp contrast to Batman who's much tamer in his own stories compared to his appearances in crossover books.

This is ignoring that many of the "feats" that characters like Superman and WW achieve in their books are not even that consistently shown in their own stories, let alone in crossover books, but people tend to latch onto the best showings of their favorite character and use them as if they were a standard part of their character's powers, but then have the audacity to dismiss any thing Batman does as "PIS", "CIS" or "WIS" or whatever dumb name people use to defend their opinion.

Second point is, the fact that people really don't give much of a crap about the characterization of their favorite characters, or what kind of message their character is conveying. It's all about who wins in a fight now, so when a character like Batman, a human, outshines another character that's precised as being superior people don't take it well. That's why Batman is the one character most people complain about, because he does that consistently, and especially to characters with very vocal fanbases.

So it's all about people who can't take the idea of their fictional character of choice not being consistently shown to be better than every other fictional character. However, at the end of the day it's all the fault of this pesky Batman and his stupid fanboys right ?

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DeathpooltheT1000

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#3  Edited By DeathpooltheT1000

This is pretty much what you said in the OP one.

Just longer.

People doesnt think exactly as you do, you start better dealing with it!!!

Also Suspension of Disbelief!!!

I'm not a big fan of Batman-prep-time for several reasons. The first of which relates to the Justice League and that is the idea that Batman uses his intelligence to defeat his enemies and the rest of the team uses brute force. I hear this all the time and it really short-changes the other members of the JL. When you read the individual stories of Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman etc., they do actually use their brain as much as their brawn to overcome challenges and they have used pre-battle planning. Wonder Woman and Aquaman were trained in battle tactics at a young age, a key element of tactics is learning about your enemy, so there's no real reason why these characters can't utilize prep time. Not to mention, Batman often times relies on his martial arts and gadgetry to win fights, sometimes he will use planning but I don't know where this idea came from that Batman is the most cerebral member of the Justice League. A common rebuttal is that because these guys are so powerful, Batman needs to find some way to stay relevant hence prep-time, but in my eyes if you have to put down 6 characters to make one character look good, you need to rethink the dynamics of the JL.

The second is this idea that Batman can defeat any member of the JL because of prep time. People almost always cite the Tower of Babel arc but if you've read the story, you know that claim is inaccurate because 1) he didn't beat any of them, Ra's al Ghul did 2) Ra's made alterations to his plans because Ra's thought they were inadequate. The point of Tower of Babel IMO was not to show how awesome Batman is with prep-time but rather how his paranoia can be a danger to the team.

The third mostly deals with his fanboys (not fans). They always rag on characters like Superman because they're OP and too unrealistic to be relate-able but then they sing the praises of Batman by saying he's so relate-able and realistic....and he could beat anyone with prep-time. If a character can beat anyone they want..... how are they not OP and how is that remotely realistic. It's also a little amusing how when one looks at a battle forum and people list the conditions for Batman (for ex. full year of prep) and then have him win, it's assumed to be a plus for his character. But giving Batman prep-time in a battle is giving him a handicap, what type of badass character needs that much help to be effective? It's like the fanboys admit that Batman really can't win a lot on his own, he needs to have this, this and this in order to win. Now mind you fanboys of any fandom can say stupid things, I can point out things that Superman-fanboys say that are ridiculous but the topic is Bat-prep.

On another note, the new-52 really did humble Batman a bit regarding prep-time so it's not as big of a problem as before.

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Anjales_II

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@deathpoolthet1000: We're having a discussion here, nothing wrong with a little friendly debate. I don't mind people having different opinions, in fact I encourage it, I'm encouraging debate. you're the one who's getting agitated. At least it's better than "Why is Batman so tall and muscular" threads... While the topics are related, in this case it's different, because here's we're not dealing no with Batman's own capabilities his particular position among the justice league. When I discussed OP, that was Batman in general, but in this case we're a) dealing with his "worthiness" of being part of JL, b) the fact that Batman gets dumbed down as much as other characters given particular circumstances c) the fact that it was in character for Batman to prepare against the league.

If you're bored you're welcome to suggest (or even write) a new topic instead of repeating yourself and copying other people's posts.

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Batman3000

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@anjales: I think it would be cool if you debunked that batman villains are overrated to make them more of a threat to Batman.

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dernman

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Accuses others of getting agitated yet gets agitated when they others don't post the way they want them too.

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Enzo991

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@dernman: By going after someone who's being very friendly and polite in his writing, it's clear to me that you're here only to contribute to the discussion, and last time you wrote up quite the impressive piece, especially the part where you said, and I quote, "sigh" proved to be very insightful and helped in furthering the discussion and adding a new perspective to it. So please continue to add more to this board, I'm really looking forward to read more of your masterful writing.

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Anjales_II

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@dernman:Your intent on having an unnecessary argument over nothing, so this is the last time I'm humoring you. If I came off as hostile then I take it back, but simply derailing these thread with meaningless "expressions" and gifs instead of engaging in actual discussion will simply not be tolerated. If you have something substantial to add to the topic then by all means express yourself, if not, then kindly back off. No agitation, agree or disagree at your leisure but do not waste anyone's (including yours) time by derailing threads. If you have anything to add concerning this topic I'd be happy to debate, if not then this the last time I'm replying to you. Now moving on to actual discussion...

@enzo991 said:

Nicely put. However, people mainly get salty when Batman is shown to be the smart guy of the group, especially when compared to Superman (as some think that Superman would be a better detective if he really wanted to), or when he is shown to be a better overall fighter than say Wonder Woman (who many believe to be the world's best Martial Artist based on a comment Batman himself said).

These problems in my opinion are mainly the result of two things. First, the fact that the power of the characters' gets exaggerated in their own titles, like Superman being a super intelligent almost omnipotent being in his own books, with access to absurdly powerful alien tech, or Wonder Woman shown to be overall much tougher and her martial art prowess getting touted as the absolute best. So when it comes to the JLA books, where every character is supposed to be useful, many of the more absurd aspects of the characters don't make it into the story, and that usually causes the fanboys to rage. This is in sharp contrast to Batman who's much tamer in his own stories compared to his appearances in crossover books.

This is ignoring that many of the "feats" that characters like Superman and WW achieve in their books are not even that consistently shown in their own stories, let alone in crossover books, but people tend to latch onto the best showings of their favorite character and use them as if they were a standard part of their character's powers, but then have the audacity to dismiss any thing Batman does as "PIS", "CIS" or "WIS" or whatever dump name people use to defend their opinion.

Second point is, the fact that people really don't give much of a crap about the characterization of their favorite characters, or what kind of message their character is conveying. It's all about who wins in a fight now, so when a character like Batman, a human, outshines another character that's precised as being superior people don't take it well. That's why Batman is the one character most people complain about, because he does that consistently, and especially to characters with very vocal fanbases.

So it's all about people who can't take the idea of their fictional character of choice not being consistently shown to be better than every other fictional character. However, at the end of the day it's all the fault of this pesky Batman and his stupid fanboys right ?'

I do agree with you mostly, but let's not forget that for many people, those "feats" that you may call exaggerated, are considered by some people to be "core characteristics" of those characters. Not saying that's right, but it's necessary to understand where those complaints are coming from. Let's be honest, even Batman's own capabilities get exaggerated here and there, and that's fine. What the issue here is, people think that those exaggerations apply only to "their" character and do not accept it on others. and this is where terms like "dumb down" and "overrated" come in. There's also this unhealthy fascination with battle forums but that's a whole other issue all together that I won't even bother addressing.

@anjales: I think it would be cool if you debunked th' at batman villains are overrated to make them more of a threat to Batman.

Well for starters, I try to shy away from terms like "overrated" and "underrated" because I never truly understand this concept. Either you like something or you don't, what does it matter how others think right? Isn't it subjective? The point of these threads is to analyze and discuss preconceptions about the character, not challenge other people's personal tastes. With that in mind, if by "overrated" you mean to address the notion that Batman's villains get amped or purposely get written strongly to appear as a threat to Batman? Well that is to be expected, that's the case with most villains, it just so happens that these guys don't have powers, and instead most of their strength are plot dependent, and as someone who takes plot into context, I'm okay with that as long as the characters' core characteristics are preserved. It gets bad when characters are purposely made to look ineffective to make their villains look formidable, and as I stated in this thread, examples of this are in stories like Knight Terrors, Officer Down and Going Sane.

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dernman

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#9  Edited By dernman

@anjales: Expressing oneself with an expression does not derail a thread. It serves a purpose to the one expressing themselves. You don't have to like it and you certainly can't stop it.

What derails a thread is someone getting butthurt and defensive over it where they feel they need to bring the person back and into an argument. Especially when said person already had moved on from the thread.

I mean all I wrote was "sigh". Is there really a need to make a thing about it? I mean really? For hecks sake man get a thicker skin.

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dernman

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#10  Edited By dernman

@enzo991: By going after someone who's being very friendly and polite in his writing, it's clear to me that you're here only to contribute to the discussion, and last time you wrote up quite the impressive piece, especially the part where you said, and I quote, "sigh" proved to be very insightful and helped in furthering the discussion and adding a new perspective to it. So please continue to add more to this board, I'm really looking forward to read more of your masterful writing.

Don't be ignorant. sigh wasn't to further the discussion. It was to express how I feel. You don't have to like it and your opinion on whats acceptable posting is nothing to me. He made it into an issue. Getting defensive for very little reason just because it doesn't align with him isn't being friendly nor polite. His response wasn't either. Hell if you really cared or believed in what the crap your peddling you wouldn't exasperate the problem by inserting yourself into this. Instead you show your bull for what it is. I noticed he didn't call you out for not furthering the Batman discussion for your post to me and my sigh was a much smaller thing. OH that's right because it's ok when they agree with him. :p

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Enzo991

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@dernman: No that's not how it's. The topic is attempting to discuss something the topic creator deemed to be a misconception, and he clearly spent a lot of time preparing and writing it, so when you come and dismiss everything he wrote with a "sigh", it's really annoying and disrespectful. You couldn't even be bothered to write "I disagree" or something. This is a topic made by an intelligent adult, so by replying with a "sigh" as if you just read some unintelligent babbling that you couldn't even be arsed to respond to properly, it comes of as insulting to the topic creator.

He also never got defensive over people not agreeing with him. He called the people who come and don't add anything useful to further the discussion, and only try to stir up problems on their behavior, and in fact invited them to add to the discussion, and to clarify their opinions.

I already replied to the topic and will further add to it if I thought I had something meaningful to say. However, I felt the need to call you on your hostile behavior because you've been at it for the past few days, and in multiple topics.

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Enzo991

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@anjales said:

I do agree with you mostly, but let's not forget that for many people, those "feats" that you may call exaggerated, are considered by some people to be "core characteristics" of those characters. Not saying that's right, but it's necessary to understand where those complaints are coming from. Let's be honest, even Batman's own capabilities get exaggerated here and there, and that's fine. What the issue here is, people think that those exaggerations apply only to "their" character and do not accept it on others. and this is where terms like "dumb down" and "overrated" come in. There's also this unhealthy fascination with battle forums but that's a whole other issue all together that I won't even bother addressing.

That's exactly the problem. It's all arbitrary. People decide on what's legit and what's not, and base their entire way of thinking around these beliefs. Batman showing a feat of intelligence that outshines the likes of Superman or Cyborg is deemed as "bad writing", but if Superman suddenly developed a new ability that was never referenced before like being able to emit waves from any frequency of the electromagnetic spectrum, it's immediately used as a proof of Superman's greatness. It's the hypocrisy that annoys me.

Comics are written by different writers, and the writer who handles a character in its solo book won't be the same that handles the crossover books, so discrepancies are unavoidable, but if you want to apply boundaries that only apply to the characters that you dislike, there are bound to be people who disagree. That's why I find the whole concept of "Bad writing, PIS, CIS, WIS...etc" to be absolutely stupid. Not only it's completely subjective what constitutes bad writing and what doesn't, but also all of this runs on the belief that a random poster on the internet knows better than the writer who's writing the story, which I find to be pretentious.

This of course not to say that the writers are infallible, they're fans and fanboys themselves after all. However, if you're gonna start questioning every line written in a comic, and expect it to conform to your idea of how things "should be", then you might as well abandon comics and start writing your own fanfic.

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dernman

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@enzo991: No that's not how it's.

Yeah stopped reading here. Just the fact you're choosing to continue this argument instead of letting it die proves you're full of it. Have fun with you're whining and crying over a sigh. Not that anyone cares. pathetic.

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OrangeBat

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@deathpoolthet1000 still at it, I see...and @dernman joins in!

Other than that, interesting write-up, @anjales. I didn't actually remember that thing about Aquaman having his own contingencies, thanks for jogging my memory. Everyone just seemed to sort of forget about it afterwards.

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Anjales_II

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@midnightknight "The reason that people didn't have a problem with Aquaman being in the spotlight in that storyline is because Batman is ALWAYS in the spotlight. Batman only works in crossover with the JL is if he is in the spotlight. If Superman or Flash used their powers as efficiently as possible, then Batman would not really be needed."

No offense, but complaining that Batman is ALWAYS in the spotlight isn't really an argument. That's just you getting tired of the character, and it's understandable but doesn't speak for others and definitely isn't enough to blame the portrayal of the character for it. If you really think about it, if Superman by himself used his powers efficiently no other superhero on DC would be needed. Writers need to set certain boundaries for characters, Batman included. That's why they play off each other well when there is balance in the stories. Batman can work well without being spotlighted, as shown in Injustice League story arc, where Lex Luthor was in the spotlight yet Batman still showed how efficient he can be by using his own humanity to talk some sense in Power Ring.

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MidnightKnight

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@anjales: No offense, but complaining that Batman is ALWAYS in the spotlight isn't really an argument. That's just you getting tired of the character, and it's understandable but doesn't speak for others and definitely isn't enough to blame the portrayal of the character for it. If you really think about it, if Superman by himself used his powers efficiently no other superhero on DC would be needed. Writers need to set certain boundaries for characters, Batman included. That's why they play off each other well when there is balance in the stories. Batman can work well without being spotlighted, as shown in Injustice League story arc, where Lex Luthor was in the spotlight yet Batman still showed how efficient he can be by using his own humanity to talk some sense in Power ring

Well even if Superman used his powers as effectively as possible, he still can't be everywhere at once, so you do need other heroes. True, boundaries need to be set for characters, but I think those boundaries are moved more for Batman then any other character. Especially if we look at Batman from the comic and the animated series and movie. Characters that were trading blows with Superman get kicked in the face by Batman and are staggered. Batman dodging the Omega Effect. A beam that follows you and catches super speedsters like Superman. Even Batman getting the Mobius Chair. A device of infinite knowledge. No matter how smart Batman is, he's still human. That amount of information should have crushed his mind.

Batman is a good hero in his own right true enough, but if were honest the other character would HAVE to be scaled back some to make Batman useful. Wonder Woman is a better fighter, Flash is faster, Superman stronger, Cyborg smarter. Superman and Cyborg could build anything that the JL would need. Aquaman is a king, which means he has a treasury, and is probably richer then Bruce Wayne. Wonder Woman is a princess. She also has a treasury. They could fund the JL

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OrangeBat

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@midnightknight said:

@anjales: No offense, but complaining that Batman is ALWAYS in the spotlight isn't really an argument. That's just you getting tired of the character, and it's understandable but doesn't speak for others and definitely isn't enough to blame the portrayal of the character for it. If you really think about it, if Superman by himself used his powers efficiently no other superhero on DC would be needed. Writers need to set certain boundaries for characters, Batman included. That's why they play off each other well when there is balance in the stories. Batman can work well without being spotlighted, as shown in Injustice League story arc, where Lex Luthor was in the spotlight yet Batman still showed how efficient he can be by using his own humanity to talk some sense in Power ring

Well even if Superman used his powers as effectively as possible, he still can't be everywhere at once, so you do need other heroes. True, boundaries need to be set for characters, but I think those boundaries are moved more for Batman then any other character. Especially if we look at Batman from the comic and the animated series and movie. Characters that were trading blows with Superman get kicked in the face by Batman and are staggered. Batman dodging the Omega Effect. A beam that follows you and catches super speedsters like Superman. Even Batman getting the Mobius Chair. A device of infinite knowledge. No matter how smart Batman is, he's still human. That amount of information should have crushed his mind.

Batman is a good hero in his own right true enough, but if were honest the other character would HAVE to be scaled back some to make Batman useful. Wonder Woman is a better fighter, Flash is faster, Superman stronger, Cyborg smarter. Superman and Cyborg could build anything that the JL would need. Aquaman is a king, which means he has a treasury, and is probably richer then Bruce Wayne. Wonder Woman is a princess. She also has a treasury. They could fund the JL

Where has it ever been shown that Wonder Woman is a better fighter than Batman? Outside that one throw-away comment by Batman one time (which is kinda pointless seeing as others, including Wonder Woman, have said the same about Batman), Bats has generally outranked her, being somewhere in the top five. Wonder Woman barely cracks the top twenty.

Cyborg is a better technician by virtue of being half-machine. He's not actually "smarter" than Batman.

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@orangebat: You cant call it a throwaway line because it doesn't support your argument, because if there was a line from Wonder Woman saying that about Batman you'd use it as support.

Wonder Woman is the better fighter. Shes older, trained her whole life, and had much more intense training, shes faster, stronger, and this is before she became the God of War. And when Batman went up again her it ended with him on the ground and her boot on his head.

Doesn't matter how you put it, Cyborg is smarter. He was a top mind before becoming Cyborg, and he's even smarter now.

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The biggest problem is in my opinion that the Justice League stuff started to affect the Batman comics in the last 10 year. Before the Batman comics were quite separated from the rest, now Batman uses more super tech in his own comics and you have suddenly stuff like him going to Apocalypse and fighting Darkside to get Damian back ...

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Dcmarveljoseph

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Batman deserves to be in the League because when the earth was attacked he decided to work with his friend Superman and others to help. He was apart of the first line of defense..lother can't just kick him out after that. Anyway, I agree with everything you said. It's funny how people who hate Batman always say "my opinion in mine" and never state what's so bad about him.

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#22  Edited By OrangeBat

@midnightknight said:

@orangebat: You cant call it a throwaway line because it doesn't support your argument, because if there was a line from Wonder Woman saying that about Batman you'd use it as support.

Wonder Woman is the better fighter. Shes older, trained her whole life, and had much more intense training, shes faster, stronger, and this is before she became the God of War. And when Batman went up again her it ended with him on the ground and her boot on his head.

Doesn't matter how you put it, Cyborg is smarter. He was a top mind before becoming Cyborg, and he's even smarter now.

Uh, yes I can call it a throwaway line, because that's what it was. Wonder Woman and others have made similar throw-away lines about Batman, which I don't use as support, because I have better, and because these lines are as cheap as corner-store candy in comic books.

Wonder Woman is not older than Batman. She's younger than him, and has in fact always been younger. Trained her whole life? In what, Amazon fighting styles which have rarely had contact with the outside world? More intense training? Call me when she does half the shit Batman does without superpowers, without the benefit of her own. And no shit she's faster and stronger, she has superpowers. Without her superpowers, she doesn't even crack the top twenty as a fighter.

Hiketeia? Yeah, where she, uh, had her powers? And where Batman acted like a complete retard, attacking her head on with no plan? I don't think that's a good demonstration of her being a better fighter. You might as well cite an instance of Superman casually bitch-slapping Batman as proof that Superman is a better fighter.

Cyborg was a football player before being Cyborg. Like hell he was a top mind. And as Cyborg he has yet to demonstrate anything beyond being a smart tech guy.

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MidnightKnight

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@orangebat: Vic Stone had a 170+ IQ before he became Cyborg, so with his new enhancements he's smarter then Batman.

Wonder Woman has always been shown to be hundreds of years old. And are you really going to compare Amazon warrior training to marital arts training? Wonder Woman is a warrior born, not a martial artist. Batman is just a martial artist. Amazons are shown to be some of the greatest warriors in history. And I dont have to call you when she does half the things she does without superpowers. Losing her superpowers wouldn't suddenly negate her training and skill.

It doesn't matter how Batman acted. We're not talking if he had a plan and snuck up on her in the dark. We're talking about a hand to hand combat situation and he lost.

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#24  Edited By OrangeBat

Vic Stone had a 170+ IQ before he became Cyborg, so with his new enhancements he's smarter then Batman.

We're talking about New 52 Cyborg, not Pre-Flashpoint Cyborg, pal. New 52 Victor wasn't exactly anything special (well, beyond being a gifted athlete). With his enhancements? He's not taking over as strategist/tactician, is he? He's not the brains of the team, is he? He's the tech guy. Smart in his own way, but no replacement for Batman.

Wonder Woman has always been shown to be hundreds of years old.

No, she hasn't. She has, in fact, never been shown to be hundreds of years old, even in her origin as penned by William Marston. Why this myth persists is beyond me.

And are you really going to compare Amazon warrior training to marital arts training? Wonder Woman is a warrior born, not a martial artist. Batman is just a martial artist.

Yes, I am. Where do you think the term "martial arts" came from, genius? European sword-fighting as practiced hundreds of years ago, Roman soldier training, Celtic warrior training, samurai training, even fictional Amazon fighting - these are all "martial arts".

Batman practices martial arts. He has fought and taken down more than his fair share of trained warrior opponents, even those beyond him with sheer skill and physical superiority alone. Technically, he's also a warrior. He's also older than Wonder Woman.

Amazons are shown to be some of the greatest warriors in history.

Not really, especially since they've been isolated for thousands of years from the rest of mankind.

And I dont have to call you when she does half the things she does without superpowers. Losing her superpowers wouldn't suddenly negate her training and skill.

It doesn't matter how Batman acted. We're not talking if he had a plan and snuck up on her in the dark. We're talking about a hand to hand combat situation and he lost.

Whoosh. Let me explain this in a bit more detail.

Losing her superpowers would mean that she has to rely purely on her skill and human physical attributes to get by, like Batman does to prevail, much like with Superman. You're pretending as though comparing Wonder Woman with superpowers, where she doesn't have to rely on her combat prowess as much, to Batman with no superpowers, where it's literally all he has, is a legitimate comparison. My example with Superman was a demonstration that this is a false equivalence.

In Hiketeia, Wonder Woman won because she had superpowers. Her fighting talent had nothing to do with it. Jim Gordon could have KO'd Batman in that situation if he had her powers, and he's nowhere near Batman's caliber.

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@orangebat: You cant call it a throwaway line because it doesn't support your argument, because if there was a line from Wonder Woman saying that about Batman you'd use it as support.

Wonder Woman is the better fighter. Shes older, trained her whole life, and had much more intense training, shes faster, stronger, and this is before she became the God of War. And when Batman went up again her it ended with him on the ground and her boot on his head.

Doesn't matter how you put it, Cyborg is smarter. He was a top mind before becoming Cyborg, and he's even smarter now.

WW wont even make it to the top 50 most skilled characters in DC,she can train harder,be older, be God of whatever, she doesn't have the feats to back it up.

Same goes for Cyborg, he's just the JL smart phone.

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People say Flash and Superman should be better detectives? But have they even shown to be better detectives in their own solo stories where Batman isn't around? This is a genuine question. Answer if possible, plz.

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If you compare strenght, speed simply power then no, but because he is the weakest of them all, just some guy in a suit with money to support them all he is there to show humans can be intelligent. He is the speech for all humans. Cyborg is the speech for all techs, wonder woman for all "god" beings, superman for alien race, aquaman for water race. In DC there are not just human living the world but also aliens, gods, all are living here.

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Cool post, I definitely agree.

However, I do feel that the Justice League as a general concept is flawed, not just in terms of Batman being there.

All of the heroes in the Justice League are well-rounded, fully fleshed out characters individually, whereas in Justice League they all have to be "dumbed down" (Batman included) for the book to work. That's not anybody's fault, it's just a fundamental fact of the team-up concept.

The Flash is a good example. Barry is one of the most powerful characters in all of comics. He's not just fast, he's able to travel through time, even through different universes. He can break the sound barrier with ease, and has moves like the super sonic punch at his disposal. Based on what we know of Flash, and previous feats we've witnessed, it's not unreasonable to suggest that he could build up enough speed to one-punch KO someone like Darkseid.

On top of that, Barry is a forensic scientist working for the police. He's a damn smart guy, with vast scientific knowledge, great resources at his disposal, and more than competent detective skills. There's really no qualities you could want in a superhero that Flash doesn't have in some capacity.

It's a similar case for every character in the Justice League. While they all have their own area of speciality, none of them have any really unique traits. Sure, Batman is a super-genius detective, but can he really get any more information from a crime scene than say, a scan from Green Lantern's ring can?

See, none of the characters really provide anything vital or different to anyone else, so the Justice League series has to focus on and exaggerate one particular aspect of a character, while downplaying or straight-up ignoring other aspects. Therefore all these well-rounded characters are reduced to one key trait - Batman is the genuis detective, Superman is the powerhouse etc. rather than actually showing that Batman has near super-human strength, and Superman has super-intelligence.

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Dmnb2wavy

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#29  Edited By Dmnb2wavy

Eh I have no problems with Batman being on the league however when batman decides to actually swap hands with someone like darkseid or even mongul then it becomes a real problem.

Batman is only on the league because he sells books that pretty much it. If Batman was not so popular he would be far less impressive than he is usually portrayed.

Batman should honestly not be on the league bc logically everyone besides maybe cyborg or aquaman operates at a higher speed tier.

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@dmnb2wavy:

The purpose of the Justice League is to sell books.

The issue is not if Batman should be on the League "if everyone were written properly."

The issue is WHY should there be a Justice League if Superman can do everything that every other member of the League can do better than they can when he "doesn't hold back."

Superman is a 12th level intellect with latent psychic ability on the level of Brainiac. He can use his super intellect and x ray vision to understand a language that he has never heard. He can manipulate energy to the point that he can rip and seal holes in the time-space continuum.

I am OK with an internally consistent argument to support an emotional opinion. When the arguments are inconsistent...i cannot help but go in a little.