(Big Spoilers leaked) Bruce Timm did it again (Batman Killing joke)

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Black_Arrow

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I cannot believe that he would do this again but he did and now in all it's explicit glory.

https://twitter.com/acronite7/status/756542233424388096 (there is a gif here where you will understand what I am talking about)

and It gets worse:

Timm, it's okay to have your little fanboy fantasies, what it's not ok, it's to put them directly on screen. I don't know anybody that liked Bruce and Barbara being together on the Animated series, It seemed inapropiate that Batman was banging the daughter of one his best friends but also the ex girlfriend of his younger partner. But now Bruce feels guilty about it and Barbara has to convience that a one night stand doesn't mean anything, this is the kind of thing that I don't expect and don't want in a Killing Joke movie.

I am still exited for the film but that's absolutely not good, it has to have great execution to convience me otherwise.

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TheExile285

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#2  Edited By TheExile285

....wow, WOW. Yeah, think I'm gonna pass on this now.

Why would DC ok this? And here I thought Timm might be able to adapt the story accurately with no big dumb changes like recent animated DC movies have suffered from.

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Black_Arrow

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#3  Edited By Black_Arrow

@theexile285: It's not like he didn't knew what the fans thought of that, He knew (because he already did it in the animated series and fans didn't liked it) and he did it anyway. I love the guy, the DCAU and JL Gods and Monster were amazing but you can't add in Killing Joke movie the one aspect that didn't work.

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Mr___death

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righteous300

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So people are going to overreact as usual.

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apokos7

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OK... So... I didn't see that one coming...

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EcstaticGrace

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I was hoping this was something manageable to joke about and say "Praise Batman" but this is honestly disappointing. It's really weird given Batman raised Grayson and Babs should be Grayson's age.

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HandOfPrometheus

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See I wouldn't mind this relationship but to shove it into the killing joke was stupid. Still gonna watch the film though.

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ScouterV

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Big deal.

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Black_Arrow

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So people are going to overreact as usual.

It's something important, it changes the dinamics of the story. Now The Joker didn't hurt just the Commisioner's daughter and a friend of Batman, no now he hurt Batman's love interest. You see that it changed how Batman saw Barbara. During the time of the Killing joke, Barbara wasn't Batgirl, my fear is that in this movie Barbara won't be Batgirl because Batman felt guilty about baging her and now the Joker is going to be able to shoot her because of it and It will add a guilt to Batman that he never had on the original Killing Joker. this is why I said it all depends on the execution. The time of the overreaction was with Animated series, I mean the show what it's own thing and in the first episode of Barbara they established that she was attracted to him, so eventhrough it's creepy, It made sense. Now this one is an adaptation, you have to try to be faithful to the source material. Of course they have to add more scenes because the original book is too short, but those scenes should add to the context of the book not change it, the friendship of Bruce and Barbara was implied in the original Killing Joke but you had to know some Batman lore to know what was happening there, in here they changed the relation ship.

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TheExile285

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@black_arrow: Yeah, while I don't hate the guy for this or anything, I was already on the fence about seeing the movie and this is not something I want to see.

I really hope DC lets him do another JL: Gods and Monsters tho.

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wrucebayne

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The animated series was his baby, he can do whatever he likes there. Now he's just forcing something into The Killing Joke that was never there, never hinted at in the slightest.

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Rurgandy

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Looks pretty bad, adding screentime to the character for no purpose other than titillation and portray her as a clingy ex. It shows that sometimes, comic and cartoon writers can be horribly out of touch on how to develop characters. Obviously, it's impossible for a mentor and protege to have a platonic relationship if they're the opposite sex, isn't it? Crazy to think that Batman v Superman manages to not be the worst Batman adaptation out this year.

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Gpower

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This is horrible won't be seeing this now.

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LAC30

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This is disgusting. Batman had *ex with catwoman and talia and now with babs? for me its not canon. I am annoyed because in gods and monsters there was a *ex scene with wonder woman and trevor. I lost a lot of respect for timm. Bruce knows how feelings work and he would never do that to his best friend! what happened to the bro code?? babs is in graysons age. really disgusting.

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HighAccuser

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#16  Edited By HighAccuser

Wth is this shit

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Shintakie

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@rurgandy said:

Looks pretty bad, adding screentime to the character for no purpose other than titillation and portray her as a clingy ex. It shows that sometimes, comic and cartoon writers can be horribly out of touch on how to develop characters. Obviously, it's impossible for a mentor and protege to have a platonic relationship if they're the opposite sex, isn't it? Crazy to think that Batman v Superman manages to not be the worst Batman adaptation out this year.

Originally the addition of Babs made sense. As they explained it, if you just happened upon Killing Joke without much knowledge beforehand you'd think that Barbara wasn't an important character at all on her own. They wanted to emphasize that she, as Batgirl, was important as more than just a plot device. That's a wonderful idea that I'm all for.

This is not how I expected that to go though. Not at all how I expected it.

She'd have been better off as just being a plot device like she was in Killing Joke because now its just super creepy.

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Saren

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Looks fine tbh, this will teach Dick not to take things for granted

Mentorship never ends

I was hoping this was something manageable to joke about and say "Praise Batman" but this is honestly disappointing. It's really weird given Batman raised Grayson and Babs should be Grayson's age.

Babs was originally older than Dick. They only became roughly the same age when someone decided to make them a couple.

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Spidey_Jackson

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#19  Edited By Spidey_Jackson

Wow...That's.....really gross.....Beata
Wow...That's.....really gross.....Beata
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thatguywithheadphones

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Aw, that's shite. If you're gonna make it rated R, at least go full nip in the sex scene. This is why anime will always be supreme.

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Pharoh_Atem

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Sexy.

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EcstaticGrace

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#22  Edited By EcstaticGrace

@saren: I'm aware Babs was originally older then Dick, it's just modern day that's not the case. In this particular comic book that isn't the case.

I honestly feel most people who are fans of the Batman mythos today see Bruce as a second father to Babs making this just come off so wrong.

Given the way Batman is drawn I'm assuming he's older as well. Given how awkward the exchange was between him and Babs like it was suppose to be awkward. It makes it seem like that's the case.

It overall just Screams unnecessary element to me. Like honestly is the fact that they slept together suppose to make Batman even more hurt because of what Joker does to her?

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deactivated-5c901e667a76c

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The_Kidd

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So Bats cucked his son with his best friend daughter, I wonder which would be more mad/hurt if they found out? Lol. Should of seen this cumming after the announcement of Barbara's bigger role.

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lxlGiftedlxl

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Not a fan of this...Bruce and Babs relationship it just weird.

Just gonna block that out of my mind when I watch it.

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Dernman

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Now I'm not sure I want to see this.

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SaintWildcard

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Batfamily Incest? Someone has been reading too many hentai/fan fics

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RustyRoy

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Don't see what the big deal is, has Dick even dated her in that movieverse?

Aw, that's shite. If you're gonna make it rated R, at least go full nip in the sex scene. This is why anime will always be supreme.

Agreed.

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I'll really never understand why Bruce Timm apparently thinks that these two characters work in a romantic sense. It was creepy in the Animated Series when the first thing Bruce noted about Barbara was how much she'd grown and it's just as bad now. Even worse this time around is that it doesn't make any sense to add that element to this film. Giving Barbara a bit more screentime before the Joker incident I understand, because she hasn't exactly been a large presence in DC's animated department over the last few years. Adding romance however, or just sex as Barbara puts it, feels too forced, as if he was trying to add unnecessary drama.

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MasterDetective

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I'm going to see this movie just for that

Batman and Batgirl 4life.

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Life_Without_Progress

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... And the Timm-force strikes again.

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ThePreface

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Don't like it, but it's not a deal breaker. It does change the dynamic of the story. If it didn't I wouldn't mind so much. But I'm not super pissed about it or anything. Wonder what Alan Moore thinks about it.

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righteous300

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Really not that big of a deal to me. I'll watch the movie and I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy it.

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Black_Arrow

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Well the reviews I have been reading all pretty much agree that the begining of the movie it's a bit of a drag but when the story of the Killing Joke starts everything is awesome. So yeah I am pretty hyped, I think I will survive seeing the Bruce and Barbara relation ship.

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Black_Arrow

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#37  Edited By Black_Arrow

I love how the explanation is "The thing about this is that it's controversial, so we added more controversy" like they knew that with more controversy more people would buy the movie, that's almost the Marvel (comics) way of things. But I think that the controversy thing and the other bad arguments are just a way to justify "Bruce Timm wanted this"

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Enzo991

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I never thought the Bruce/Barbara relationship was "creepy". They're both consenting adults, and Barbara is in her early twenties, and Bruce is in his early thirties, nothing really wrong age-wise here. Not to mention that Barbara was the one who initiated the act, and Batman clearly regretted the encounter. Personally, I NEVER liked the relationship mind you, as I thought it's unnecessary in the Batman TAS.

However, I also think that the Dick/Barbara relationship wasn't appropriate, it's cheap and so....formulaic. You're Batgirl and I'm Batboy, let's shag. I think it makes as much sense as Bruce/Barbara to me. Neither should've ever happened. If Batman was arbitrarily seen as the "Father" of this made-up family, then Dick and Barbra are closer to being siblings. I think it's kind of hypocritical to condemn one relationship, while liking the other.

Also, Barbara came into Bruce's life after she was already a young adult. People make it sound like Bruce changed her diapers when she was a child or something. Not to mention that the whole "how he could do that to Gordon" is also BS, as Gordon is at least in his fifties, while Bruce is much younger. Comparing Bruce dating Barbra, to a girl dating a friend of her father (who's presumably the same age as the father) doesn't make sense. The two scenarios are not similar.

It seems it was purely done to give Batman a stronger motivation to hunt the Joker down, which I'm not sure was something the movie needed, but the fact remains that it's a pretty small detail all things considered. People swearing off watching the movie over this are way beyond overreacting.

This is of course disregarding the cries of misogyny of course, because let's face, the lives of all women in the world suddenly became horrible after this one scene >_>

People love to overreact and get offended over everything, and DC just handed them the perfect excuse. DC should've known better.

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RustyRoy

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@enzo991 said:

I never thought the Bruce/Barbara relationship was "creepy". They're both consenting adults, and Barbara is in her early twenties, and Bruce is in his early thirties, nothing really wrong age-wise here. Not to mention that Barbara was the one who initiated the act, and Batman clearly regretted the encounter. Personally, I NEVER liked the relationship mind you, as I thought it's unnecessary in the Batman TAS.

However, I also think that the Dick/Barbara relationship wasn't appropriate, it's cheap and so....formulaic. You're Batgirl and I'm Batboy, let's shag. I think it makes as much sense as Bruce/Barbara to me. Neither should've ever happened. If Batman was arbitrarily seen as the "Father" of this made-up family, then Dick and Barbra are closer to being siblings. I think it's kind of hypocritical to condemn one relationship, while liking the other.

Also, Barbara came into Bruce's life after she was already a young adult. People make it sound like Bruce changed her diapers when she was a child or something. Not to mention that the whole "how he could do that to Gordon" is also BS, as Gordon is at least in his fifties, while Bruce is much younger. Comparing Bruce dating Barbra, to a girl dating a friend of her father (who's presumably the same age as the father) doesn't make sense. The two scenarios are not similar.

It seems it was purely done to give Batman a stronger motivation to hunt the Joker down, which I'm not sure was something the movie needed, but the fact remains that it's a pretty small detail all things considered. People swearing off watching the movie over this are way beyond overreacting.

This is of course disregarding the cries of misogyny of course, because let's face, the lives of all women in the world suddenly became horrible after this one scene >_>

People love to overreact and get offended over everything, and DC just handed them the perfect excuse. DC should've known better.

Agreed. Besides this isn't even new, they hooked up in DCAU and some elseworld comic books too.

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rogueshadow

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#40 rogueshadow  Moderator

Batman basically groomed his best friend's daughter...

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Black_Arrow

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#41  Edited By Black_Arrow

@enzo991 said:

I never thought the Bruce/Barbara relationship was "creepy". They're both consenting adults, and Barbara is in her early twenties, and Bruce is in his early thirties, nothing really wrong age-wise here. Not to mention that Barbara was the one who initiated the act, and Batman clearly regretted the encounter. Personally, I NEVER liked the relationship mind you, as I thought it's unnecessary in the Batman TAS.

However, I also think that the Dick/Barbara relationship wasn't appropriate, it's cheap and so....formulaic. You're Batgirl and I'm Batboy, let's shag. I think it makes as much sense as Bruce/Barbara to me. Neither should've ever happened. If Batman was arbitrarily seen as the "Father" of this made-up family, then Dick and Barbra are closer to being siblings. I think it's kind of hypocritical to condemn one relationship, while liking the other.

Also, Barbara came into Bruce's life after she was already a young adult. People make it sound like Bruce changed her diapers when she was a child or something. Not to mention that the whole "how he could do that to Gordon" is also BS, as Gordon is at least in his fifties, while Bruce is much younger. Comparing Bruce dating Barbra, to a girl dating a friend of her father (who's presumably the same age as the father) doesn't make sense. The two scenarios are not similar.

It seems it was purely done to give Batman a stronger motivation to hunt the Joker down, which I'm not sure was something the movie needed, but the fact remains that it's a pretty small detail all things considered. People swearing off watching the movie over this are way beyond overreacting.

You know that the problem of being his father's best friend (depeding on the writer, he usually is when Superman isn't around) is not about age, but it makes the relationship between Bruce and Gordon seem really weird because now your friend is dating your daughter and you have to admit that it's pretty strange because he still is the daughter of your friend. But in this case this doesn't matter because it's not like Bruce actively wanted it and in this case he distances himself from her. The problem rises from this fact, I won't comment anymore because this probably are spoilers and I don't want to spoil it to you but It does change the emotions that the characters feel during the story and by chaging that context, the story gives you a different feel than intended. And I feel it's all to please Bruce Timm, because he is the one that pushes that relation that doesn't work and that it adds nothing but controversy to the story.

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removekebab

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#42  Edited By removekebab

No nipples?

Why make it R rated then.

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Enzo991

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#43  Edited By Enzo991

@black_arrow said:

You know that the problem of being his father's best friend (depeding on the writer, he usually is when Superman isn't around) is not about age, but it makes the relationship between Bruce and Gordon seem really weird because now your friend is dating your daughter and you have to admit that it's pretty strange because he still is the daughter of your friend. But in this case this doesn't matter because it's not like Bruce actively wanted it and in this case he distances himself from her. The problem rises from this fact, I won't comment anymore because this probably are spoilers and I don't want to spoil it to you but It does change the emotions that the characters feel during the story and by chaging that context, the story gives you a different feel than intended. And I feel it's all to please Bruce Timm, because he is the one that pushes that relation that doesn't work and that it adds nothing but controversy to the story.

I totally agree it's weird and uncomfortable, but calling it "incest" or "pedophilia" is stretching it way to far. Not to mention that, as you said, all this controversy completely ignores the context of the scene.

I'm just mainly trying to talk to the "NOPE SCREW THIS MOVIE" crowd, who're way too overreacting over this. I'll have to watch the movie myself before making a judgement. I'm not the biggest fan of the source material to be honest, so I doubt I'd be bothered too much by the change, even if it gives a different feeling to the story.

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Rubear

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IIRC it's in fact Zero Hour -old.
In one of alternative timelines Joker shooted not Barbara, but comissar Gordon and later Batgirl and Batmad fell in love.

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TheKinfing

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dondave

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#47  Edited By dondave

@black_arrow: Didn't Brian Azzarello say that he came up the first part of this movie long before Timm started the project. Wouldn't the blame go on him rather Timm?

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Black_Arrow

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@dondave said:

@black_arrow: Didn't Brian Azzarello say that he came up the first part of this movie long before Timm joined the project. Wouldn't the blame go on him rather Timm?

That's not what I understood from the interview you posted. He said that he started doing the script for the Killing Joke movie ten years ago and then Bruce Timm told him that he had to make it longer so Brian had to add more stuff to the Killing Joke story and Bruce Timm asked him to make that longer, so they gave Barbara Gordon a character arc (in which they probably added the relationship between Barbara and Bruce) but Timm was already involved with the project. I pin this on Timm mostly because he is the director of the movie (generally the guy that has the most creative decisions on the movie) and because he has done it in the past and he has shown that he loves that couple, still I suppose that Azzarello is also guilty of this.

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lxlGiftedlxl

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@dernman said:

Now I'm not sure I want to see this.

Watch it man, its pretty good.

The stuff with Babs in the beginning is ok and the relationship between her and bruce is meh but when the actual killing joke material happens its pretty good.