I let my breasts do the talking

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#101 Posted by ReVamp (23014 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@RazzaTazz said:

Maybe so, but I think it is a problem that will always persist until the demographic changes substantially (or I guess theoretically until society changes and women start dressing and acting like that)

What I don't understand is who they are doing this for? Men? Like I always hear that the sex appeal in comics is done for us but who are these people they are talking about? When Power Girl had a book, were the boobs really partly the reason anyone picked it up? I dunno.

Of course, you think I actually ever picked up Power Girl for the Story or Art? Dafuq? The only reason I got it is cause I wanted to see some boobs, I mean, liek obviously.

Honestly, I don't know whether its actually meant to be a conscious decision, I believe its supposed to be an unconscious factor for the reader.

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#102 Posted by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio
@pingclang said:

I'm sorry but I agree with her 100%. Women in comics are drawn ridiculous. I personally think it was either an excuse for the artist to draw breasts or his poor job on his layouts. In the first picture instead of making the foreground breasts why not simply put a shot of her face and shoulders or be really creative and do a perspective shot of her flying towards us, wow creative. As for the second shot that was blatant. That wasn't even a necessary shot, just focus on the background character or again show her face. I see people's point on how yeah, it is easy to overreact but me personally, I'm here to read a good story and see some beautiful art, not get my jollies. After all, isn't that what the internets for? That and blogging...

Do you believe that the way female characters are drawn isn't also the same thing with male characters as well? I mean yea alot of female superheroines have large breasts and nice figures but aren't all male superheroes incredibly buff? Don't they all wear costumes that show of their physique?
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#103 Posted by Video_Martian (5650 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp: I used to read Power Girl for the story and art ;)

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#104 Posted by RazzaTazz (11948 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

@pingclang said:

I'm sorry but I agree with her 100%. Women in comics are drawn ridiculous. I personally think it was either an excuse for the artist to draw breasts or his poor job on his layouts. In the first picture instead of making the foreground breasts why not simply put a shot of her face and shoulders or be really creative and do a perspective shot of her flying towards us, wow creative. As for the second shot that was blatant. That wasn't even a necessary shot, just focus on the background character or again show her face. I see people's point on how yeah, it is easy to overreact but me personally, I'm here to read a good story and see some beautiful art, not get my jollies. After all, isn't that what the internets for? That and blogging...

Do you believe that the way female characters are drawn isn't also the same thing with male characters as well? I mean yea alot of female superheroines have large breasts and nice figures but aren't all male superheroes incredibly buff? Don't they all wear costumes that show of their physique?

I understand that viewpoint and tried to steer away from it here. I wasn't trying to paint with too wide a brush, just noted what I had seen while reading these two issues.

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#105 Posted by ReVamp (23014 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr.obvious: Like it should be.

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#106 Posted by The_Ghostshell (84303 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

The most controversial thing I can think of being done on current comics is the integration of gay characters.We didn't have very many before.At least none that actually had a fanbase.Now we have a good handful.I know that before my time things like (the killing of Jason Todd,finding out Speed was addicted to drugs,different issues dealing with race etc.) was controversial in comics but now those things aren't such a big deal.

I'd say the introduction of a Black Spiderman could be considered controversial in some circles. Not that I'm disagreeing with your post but my point isnt really the level of controversial material in current comics, simply that any controversy sells, or is projected to sell. I'd also say that something as simple as a needle on the cover a current comic would cause more controversy now then it originally did in the past.@Vance Astro said:

What I don't understand is who they are doing this for? Men?

I'd say teens and those who find illustrated boobs appealing. Just about every aspect of the comicbook character is exaggerated with sexual overtones wouldnt you say? Huge muscles, big boobs, underwear on the outside and fishnets? The most popular characters are usually the best looking ones. No one cares about the Blob lol

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#107 Edited by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz said:

I understand that viewpoint and tried to steer away from it here. I wasn't trying to paint with too wide a brush, just noted what I had seen while reading these two issues.

Understood.I was just asking him because it seems the issue is bigger than how these characters look.  
 
@Gambler said:

I'd say the introduction of a Black Spiderman could be considered controversial in some circles. Not that I'm disagreeing with your post but my point isnt really the level of controversial material in current comics, simply that any controversy sells, or is projected to sell. I'd also say that something as simple as a needle on the cover a current comic would cause more controversy now then it originally did in the past.

That's true.I understood your point I just couldn't think of what things are still done in comics today that would be controversial.
 
@Gambler said:

I'd say teens and those who find illustrated boobs appealing. Just about every aspect of the comicbook character is exaggerated with sexual overtones wouldnt you say? Huge muscles, big boobs, underwear on the outside and fishnets? The most popular characters are usually the best looking ones. No one cares about the Blob lol

I guess because in comics that was never really my thing that it's hard to fathom that sexualized images are some part of the reason that any male purchases a comic.I know that most characters are exaggerated but if for instance people will buy Power Girl to LOOK at her boobs, does her actions and her dialogue have to have sexual overtones as well?
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#108 Posted by Daycrawler (556 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nerx said:

@SC: No I want my elephant head masks (some people still agree on that, and traditions are being mangled by new notions)

Don't traditions start out as new notions in the first place? No new notions equals stagnation.

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#109 Edited by Lantern Prime (12987 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gambler said:

@Vance Astro said:

The most controversial thing I can think of being done on current comics is the integration of gay characters.We didn't have very many before.At least none that actually had a fanbase.Now we have a good handful.I know that before my time things like (the killing of Jason Todd,finding out Speed was addicted to drugs,different issues dealing with race etc.) was controversial in comics but now those things aren't such a big deal.

I'd say the introduction of a Black Spiderman could be considered controversial in some circles. Not that I'm disagreeing with your post but my point isnt really the level of controversial material in current comics, simply that any controversy sells, or is projected to sell. I'd also say that something as simple as a needle on the cover a current comic would cause more controversy now then it originally did in the past.@Vance Astro said:

What I don't understand is who they are doing this for? Men?

I'd say teens and those who find illustrated boobs appealing. Just about every aspect of the comicbook character is exaggerated with sexual overtones wouldnt you say? Huge muscles, big boobs, underwear on the outside and fishnets? The most popular characters are usually the best looking ones. No one cares about the Blob lol

Way I look at it. Its all a universe with different kinds of people/beings and personalities. Its all mature rated stuff anyways. What are you gonna do when you see something that relates to the real world? For people complaining about whats in comics they need to check themselves. They are probably the same ones that watch all the garbage thats on tv nowadays. Watching Jersey Shore and Basketball wives.

Exaggerated Sexual Overtones are nothing for people to complain about. You feel me? I mean I hear a lot more women complain about than anything else. Then they'd be the ones liking the big, in flatted muscles and have no problem with a man with his shirt off.

Eh i can't deny I like this....

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#110 Posted by Lantern Prime (12987 posts) - - Show Bio

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#111 Posted by SC (18159 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler said: 

In today's world it feels like it sells everywhere, comics included. It depends on ones definition of controversial as well.

 
Its sort of like that cliche about publicity. Controversy never sells per say, but its a great attention grabber, and if more people are adverse to steady flows of information, quick bursts of controversy can often be the only way to gain the interests of some people. The only reason its not abused more is that people have a threshold for that as well. What is considered controversial can get watered down, fast and as far as sales marketing, its sort of a risk to go with controversy selling unless you have a strong hold on the market, since you have to question the loyalty of the type of fan who will jump on board mainly for  generally so superficial. So you can get a quick influx of fans, but then lose them as fast, with possibly extra losses, since usually the type of controversies that can bring in new fans, tends to piss off established fans. Its a bit like number #1 issues to varying degree.  
 
Definitely agree about today's world as well. People's attention spans are getting short, people's brains are being rewired to have to multitask more often with more and more emphasis on the multi part and studies/research even show the rate of people's interest, curiosity and knowledge of the past, is getting shorter and shorter, so past years get less relevant even faster, and this trend continually shrinks. So culturally we are setting up conditions where controversy selling can pay off faster than before, because people are just more prone to it, its just that the long term effects and negative effects will likely occur much faster as well, essentially creating a cannibalizing effect. Since you can lose what you gain, and numbers keep dropping anyway, if they already were. Controversy arguably sells best as an ingredient in a package with something else, say creativity, even if only the perception if it. Since you bring in new fans for one reason, but keep them around for another.  Well that or you become a master at repackaging controversy, but that either requires no shame (Hollywood, or Marvels Variants for DC covers scheme) or exploitation (politics, or big events) or adaptability (Wolves, comics going digital)  
 
 
@Vance Astro said: 
 @RazzaTazz said: 

Maybe so, but I think it is a problem that will always persist until the demographic changes substantially (or I guess theoretically until society changes and women start dressing and acting like that)

What I don't understand is who they are doing this for? Men? Like I always hear that the sex appeal in comics is done for us but who are these people they are talking about? When Power Girl had a book, were the boobs really partly the reason anyone picked it up? I dunno.

Men who stare at breasts tend to live longer than those who don't. There's a cap to that of course, but could also possibly explain vampires at their obsession with youth. Anyway its not really that they are consciously attempting to live longer, or say leg guys don't want to live longer (but they probably would live longer than the guys staring at feet) so like Revamp mentions, there is a probably a lot of unconscious decision making being made here. Just think of Oxytocin and its role in determining how people purchase,live and interact with each other. Or if we break it down more, they are basically doing it for themselves. Money, then trying to figure out how to get more it. Flawed common sense was that in simple terms, if people like stuff, try and appeal to their preferences and don't worry so much about the people that don't like things, since they won't buy anyway, or they'll ignore what they don't like and focus on what they do like. Throw in TnA for guys, and a girl character for girls. Oh and a person of "colour" for the "coloured" people. Gay guy for the gays. Its really safe thinking, often backwards too, but its also why success creates imitators and popularity breeds clones. Of course intent doesn't always translate to execution. Especially when take into consideration different mediums. Comics will never be able to compete with porn, and so your questioning of the logic on putting sex appeal in comics to appeal to men is a very good point, with much validity as far as those putting it in for and who, but counter application to this, is similar to how most of us are unaware of our chemical interactions, and similar to controversy, sex appeal isn't always sold as just sex appeal. In fact its sold as as many things as it can. Many people's appreciation for art can end up just being what they consider aesthetically pleasing. So if you package sex with above average art, you'll find many people buying something for the now great art. Sex appeal can be sold as power, as success, as a ego trip, as characterization, as edge, as controversy, as political correctness, as anti authority, as rebellion, as risk, as wish fulfillment and as Xtreme, as sci fi, as homosexuality and heterosexuality. So the smarter sex is sold usually the more successful. Well, comics have the disadvantage of being not real, because in lots of music videos and blockbuster movies, sex appeal is a big factor and pretty blatant too. So mediums have to work with their own limits and confines, and so you right and as this example highlighted in the OP demonstrates, it seems that no one actually really noticed, let alone would spend money on such blatant sexual depictions of characters, but then a lot of people might not even be consciously aware of when they are buying the things they like, that they might like those things because sex and what it can mean is being sold in bundle. 
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#112 Posted by Nerx (15350 posts) - - Show Bio

@Daycrawler said:

@Nerx said:

@SC: No I want my elephant head masks (some people still agree on that, and traditions are being mangled by new notions)

Don't traditions start out as new notions in the first place? No new notions equals stagnation.

And they come from experience and environment, as long as they dont contaminate other systems

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#113 Posted by pingclang (558 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro: Not really sure how to act on that one. See, heroes since Action 1 have been big, strong, well-built guys and I think that they sort of keep to tradition. I mean, it would be odd to see a chubby hero, I would love to see it as I'm a heavy guy myself, but not so sure it would fit. The women haven't always been drawn with ridiculous bust sizes and outfits that would cause a "spill" with the first punch. I am sort of offended by how every guy in comics, save the bad guys, are drawn as these handsome, buff dudes and so yeah, I agree that both arguments are the same.

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#114 Posted by Daycrawler (556 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nerx said:

@Daycrawler said:

@Nerx said:

@SC: No I want my elephant head masks (some people still agree on that, and traditions are being mangled by new notions)

Don't traditions start out as new notions in the first place? No new notions equals stagnation.

And they come from experience and environment, as long as they dont contaminate other systems

Confused as to what you mean by 'contaminate'. How do you determine what a contaminating factor is to a so-called established tradition? When do you decide that 'this is now a tradition, therefore that's another system/tradition's contaminating factor' or 'this isn't a tradition, therfore things are flexible and there's no such thing as a contaminating factor'?

I just feel that the more a tradition is revered as unchangeable, which no influence should change, the more likely it is to stagnate and die (to all but a hard-code few adherents). I guess I always equate statements like 'it's tradition, you can't change that!' as a bit close-minded when your talking about outdated concepts/methods/etc within those traditions.

Guess this is a highly subjective area!

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#115 Posted by The_Ghostshell (84303 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro said:

I guess because in comics that was never really my thing that it's hard to fathom that sexualized images are some part of the reason that any male purchases a comic.I know that most characters are exaggerated but if for instance people will buy Power Girl to LOOK at her boobs, does her actions and her dialogue have to have sexual overtones as well?

I'm not 100% sure if sexualized images still help move comics or not, but in PG's case without her massive boobs what is she? Its the single most identifiable trait of the character. Without em she would have faded away alongtime ago. At least thats the felling I get especially when you see the moderate backlash the new PG look is causing. People can say it has nothing to do with the downsized boobs and 0 cleave shot but I suspect differently.

@SC said:

Its sort of like that cliche about publicity. Controversy never sells per say, but its a great attention grabber, and if more people are adverse to steady flows of information, quick bursts of controversy can often be the only way to gain the interests of some people.

Excellent point. I was thinking the same thig last night, that perhaps "Controversy sells" was the wrong choice of words in my original post, but more so "grabs attention." Take this very issue for example. Was anyone talking about the plot, art, diversity, etc? Nope. It was all about the overtly in your face boob shot with dialog. So in that regard it had people talking/drew attention to an otherwise ho hum comic.

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#116 Posted by Mercy_ (94916 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler

@Vance Astro said:

I guess because in comics that was never really my thing that it's hard to fathom that sexualized images are some part of the reason that any male purchases a comic.I know that most characters are exaggerated but if for instance people will buy Power Girl to LOOK at her boobs, does her actions and her dialogue have to have sexual overtones as well?

I'm not 100% sure if sexualized images still help move comics or not, but in PG's case without her massive boobs what is she? Its the single most identifiable trait of the character. Without em she would have faded away alongtime ago. At least thats the felling I get especially when you see the moderate backlash the new PG look is causing. People can say it has nothing to do with the downsized boobs and 0 cleave shot but I suspect differently.

@SC said:

Its sort of like that cliche about publicity. Controversy never sells per say, but its a great attention grabber, and if more people are adverse to steady flows of information, quick bursts of controversy can often be the only way to gain the interests of some people.

Excellent point. I was thinking the same thig last night, that perhaps "Controversy sells" was the wrong choice of words in my original post, but more so "grabs attention." Take this very issue for example. Was anyone talking about the plot, art, diversity, etc? Nope. It was all about the overtly in your face boob shot with dialog. So in that regard it had people talking/drew attention to an otherwise ho hum comic.

To further solidify the controversy sells point; Starfire in RHATO #1.

How many people picked up that comic just to see what the fuss was all about? Howany WEEKS did people (myself included) go on about it?
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#117 Posted by Nerx (15350 posts) - - Show Bio

@Daycrawler:

Confused as to what you mean by 'contaminate' ( as in spoil, mutate or infect). How do you determine what a contaminating factor is (Comparatives in main objectives and how it interferes with the pre existing notions, can they coexist or will one of them die?) to a so-called established tradition? When do you decide that 'this is now a tradition, (many followers, taken as truth/fact and used for a very long time) therefore that's another system/tradition's contaminating factor' or 'this isn't a tradition, therfore things are flexible and there's no such thing as a contaminating factor'? (More to this system is convenient and it has a strong following, new idea will create differentiating view that will tremble those who use old idea. Thus making people question old ideals and making new ones, changing the collective with the individual)
I just feel that the more a tradition is revered as unchangeable, which no influence should change, the more likely it is to stagnate and die (to all but a hard-code few adherents(Strongly disagree, an old idea stays old as long as people abide by it, introducing new ones will complicate the establishment)). I guess I always equate statements like 'it's tradition, you can't change that!' as a bit close-minded when your talking about outdated concepts/methods/etc (depending on location and as well as bigots who wish to bend the world to for their perspective of right and wrong to create a more' convenient' place. Which may disrupt other systems that are functioning. ) within those traditions.
Guess this is a highly subjective area!
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#118 Edited by Aiden Cross (15726 posts) - - Show Bio

This blog actually reminded me of something I heard on the radio today (completely unrelated to this, but still interesting =) ). It's a research done recently amongst women ranging from 18-25, the majority of women state that they'd rather have large breasts than a high IQ... I find that (even though i see it all around me that it's true) quite shocking..

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#119 Posted by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
Men who stare at breasts tend to live longer than those who don't. There's a cap to that of course, but could also possibly explain vampires at their obsession with youth. Anyway its not really that they are consciously attempting to live longer, or say leg guys don't want to live longer (but they probably would live longer than the guys staring at feet) so like Revamp mentions, there is a probably a lot of unconscious decision making being made here. Just think of Oxytocin and its role in determining how people purchase,live and interact with each other. Or if we break it down more, they are basically doing it for themselves. Money, then trying to figure out how to get more it. Flawed common sense was that in simple terms, if people like stuff, try and appeal to their preferences and don't worry so much about the people that don't like things, since they won't buy anyway, or they'll ignore what they don't like and focus on what they do like. Throw in TnA for guys, and a girl character for girls. Oh and a person of "colour" for the "coloured" people. Gay guy for the gays. Its really safe thinking, often backwards too, but its also why success creates imitators and popularity breeds clones. Of course intent doesn't always translate to execution. Especially when take into consideration different mediums. Comics will never be able to compete with porn, and so your questioning of the logic on putting sex appeal in comics to appeal to men is a very good point, with much validity as far as those putting it in for and who, but counter application to this, is similar to how most of us are unaware of our chemical interactions, and similar to controversy, sex appeal isn't always sold as just sex appeal. In fact its sold as as many things as it can. Many people's appreciation for art can end up just being what they consider aesthetically pleasing. So if you package sex with above average art, you'll find many people buying something for the now great art. Sex appeal can be sold as power, as success, as a ego trip, as characterization, as edge, as controversy, as political correctness, as anti authority, as rebellion, as risk, as wish fulfillment and as Xtreme, as sci fi, as homosexuality and heterosexuality. So the smarter sex is sold usually the more successful. Well, comics have the disadvantage of being not real, because in lots of music videos and blockbuster movies, sex appeal is a big factor and pretty blatant too. So mediums have to work with their own limits and confines, and so you right and as this example highlighted in the OP demonstrates, it seems that no one actually really noticed, let alone would spend money on such blatant sexual depictions of characters, but then a lot of people might not even be consciously aware of when they are buying the things they like, that they might like those things because sex and what it can mean is being sold in bundle. 
I understand what you're saying. 
 
@pingclang said:

@Vance Astro: Not really sure how to act on that one. See, heroes since Action 1 have been big, strong, well-built guys and I think that they sort of keep to tradition. I mean, it would be odd to see a chubby hero, I would love to see it as I'm a heavy guy myself, but not so sure it would fit. The women haven't always been drawn with ridiculous bust sizes and outfits that would cause a "spill" with the first punch. I am sort of offended by how every guy in comics, save the bad guys, are drawn as these handsome, buff dudes and so yeah, I agree that both arguments are the same.

Glad we're on the same page.
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#120 Posted by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio
@Gambler said:

I'm not 100% sure if sexualized images still help move comics or not, but in PG's case without her massive boobs what is she? Its the single most identifiable trait of the character. Without em she would have faded away alongtime ago. At least thats the felling I get especially when you see the moderate backlash the new PG look is causing. People can say it has nothing to do with the downsized boobs and 0 cleave shot but I suspect differently.

I agree with your point but you have to admit that new Power Girl costume is painfully bad.
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#121 Posted by Aiden Cross (15726 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: Which is ironic because men find a high IQ more important in a relationship. Unless it's a quick fling, which isn't my thing anyway.

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#122 Posted by pikahyper (18432 posts) - - Show Bio

That is messed up o.o nobody cares though until it's a close up of a man's crotch lump, then there will be an outrage.

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#123 Posted by pingclang (558 posts) - - Show Bio

@pikahyper said:

That is messed up o.o nobody cares though until it's a close up of a man's crotch lump, then there will be an outrage.

Well, you know, in all fairness to the female readers of comics, they kind of should do that sort of thing. Yeah, male readers like myself won't like, it sounds disgusting, but the girls have to look at the cleavage and what-not.

In my own humble opinion, they should just stop doing this kind of thing with either sex in comics. Seriously. Invisible Woman has for the most part always been a completely clothed character and she is one of the hottest in comic books. They don't have to stoop to this.

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#124 Posted by pikahyper (18432 posts) - - Show Bio

@pingclang: Not many women want to see a close up of a mans crotch unfortunately...

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#125 Posted by vance_astro (90095 posts) - - Show Bio
@pikahyper said:

@pingclang: Not many women want to see a close up of a mans crotch unfortunately...

So you don't read Namor?  :)
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#126 Posted by pikahyper (18432 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vance Astro: I don't think I've ever seen a woman reading Namor lol, Babs likes him and all but none of my female customers have as far as I know.

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#127 Posted by thehummingbird (3487 posts) - - Show Bio

oh my heh. This rather funny and just shows the intended demographic over undersexed males. The industry may never evolve past this I believe since comics seem to have found a cheap manner in which they draw in readers. One of the highest ones being large bosoms.

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#128 Edited by treker10 (5 posts) - - Show Bio
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It seems like all the Star Sapphires let their breasts do the talking, check out Carol Ferris & Race from the Blackest Night story arc. But who cares.

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