what hax ignores ki diffrence?

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#1 Posted by Arthur_Morgan (212 posts) - - Show Bio

it is been known that ki is basicly anti hax if some1 has higher ki and whis confirmed it in the dbs manga.

even to the point where time hax means shit if the diffrence is enough.

what hax would work even if some1 is way higher in power?

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#2 Posted by camilopezo (1980 posts) - - Show Bio

Kienzan

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#3 Posted by Kratosx64x (1175 posts) - - Show Bio

Moral based hax work on stronger opponents. Kienzan. If we count Genki Dama as an anti evil attack that works. Oh and Hakai seem to work aswell.

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#4 Posted by MajinBlackheart (9404 posts) - - Show Bio

MA-FU-BAAAAA!!!!!

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#5 Posted by MainJP (5915 posts) - - Show Bio
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#6 Posted by Kratosx64x (1175 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Edited by MainJP (5915 posts) - - Show Bio

@kratosx64x: No shit? As far as the manga goes, the largest gap in strength between a Kienzan user and the target that can't be disputed would be Kuririn's Kienzan that sliced off Freeza's tail.

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#8 Posted by Kratosx64x (1175 posts) - - Show Bio

@mainjp: It still is a big f...ing gap in power.

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#9 Posted by kyrees (13530 posts) - - Show Bio

devilmite beam

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#10 Posted by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

Babidi's magic to some extent. Dabura was placed under his command despite being Perfect Cell level, and if I recall correctly, Vegeta was only able to resist it because of his Saiyan pride.

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#11 Posted by GoD_Beerus (96 posts) - - Show Bio

Don’t see any Hax that can affect Grand Preist.

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#12 Posted by SeaGod (4665 posts) - - Show Bio

Is this only in regards to db hax or all of fiction?

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#13 Posted by jaakor (292 posts) - - Show Bio

Destructo disk.

Krillin cut off Frieza's tail

Base Goku sliced buuhan in half

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#14 Posted by Arthur_Morgan (212 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher: babidi doesnt use ki , he uses magic which is not ki based.

his magic was strong.

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#15 Posted by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@arthur_morgan: The thread is about which hax ignores a Ki difference. Babidi's magic classifies as hax.

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#16 Edited by Arthur_Morgan (212 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher: what i mean is babidis magic is powerfull enough to affect characters with higher ki becouse his magic is powerfull on its own.

its not based on his ki.

he simply is a powerfull magician , the rest of his stats are trash.

his shield survived vegetas explosion yet piccolo easiely chopped him in half.

a ki user as weak as babidi using a normal ki shield against vegeta would be useless.

so if you would translate his magic with ki , he would be pretty powerfull.

his magic > daburas ki.

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#17 Posted by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@arthur_morgan: When was it mentioned that his magic wasn't Ki-based? It's been shown to boost the energy levels of characters he controls dramatically after all.

Even still, the thread is about hax in general ignoring a difference in Ki, which Babidi's magic tends to do given the fact that he's fodder to most characters he controls.

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#18 Posted by Au_141 (1000 posts) - - Show Bio

Solar Flare?

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#19 Posted by jplaya2023 (768 posts) - - Show Bio

hakai

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#20 Posted by Revold (750 posts) - - Show Bio
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#21 Edited by Arthur_Morgan (212 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher: becouse a simple chop from piccolo killed him?

or can create a shield powerfull enough to survive vegetas explosion ?

he is fodder but not his magic.

lmao, like the fact that he is fodder yet his “ki based“

magic affects way stronger characters.

his magic is simply strong and got nothing to do with ki becouse if it does than dabura should have been able to break free like vegeta.

not to mention the databook says his shield is weak against physical atacks and strong against ki blasts which is exactly NOT how ki works.

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#22 Edited by TheDeathstar (4195 posts) - - Show Bio

Mafuba so far. It can only be neglected if the user has prior knowledge of how it works like in Case of Piccolo Jr. and Frost. Hakai seems to work on equal footing so far.

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#23 Posted by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@arthur_morgan: Let me break it down for you simply here:

The topic of the thread is "what hax ignores Ki difference".

Regardless of whether Babidi's magic is Ki-based or not, it most certainly IS a hax technique that DOES work on opponents that far outclass him in strength.

You're also misguided on how Ki works, since you seem to think all characters that utilize it increase each of their attributes linearly. This is dead wrong.

Just take a look at Dyspo, who's widely considered unimpressive when it comes to anything but speed.

Additionally, you have Goku and Gohan being surprised that the Universe 9 guys don't use Ki. They had never seen anything like it previously and thought that Ki was something which every being utilized.

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#24 Posted by Arthur_Morgan (212 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher: what?

yes, i know its hax and i told you why it worked.

he got strong magic and not strong enough to completly control vegeta who thanks to his ki can resist it, hoow does this help your argument?

cant you read?

i said if for example goku chooses to use that 50x on speed he is gonna be 50x base form.

dyspo is literaly like burter.

he uses speed to fight unlike his partner who balance it more

jiren is clearly faster but he is not considered the speedster.

burter was the same , why you think they are faster but have less strength?

you cant even tell me why from an in-universe perspective nor from a out of-universe , so we assume the obviouse.

lmao , how does u9 not using ki prove anything?

so basicly they are simply strong without ki.

ok lol.

they use a unkown power source or are strong just becouse....

i shouldnt even respond to this becouse dyspos speed got nothing to do with hax resistence.

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#25 Posted by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@arthur_morgan:

You just said Babidi doesn't use Ki, which is just speculation on your end.

Wrong again. It was made explicitly clear that Vegeta resisted being taken over completely due to his Saiyan pride. It had nothing to do with his energy level.

Can't you make a good point?

You literally never said that, and there's no telling if Goku can amp his speed 50x without the use of Kaio-Ken or a special technique. Multiplying his Ki via a normal increase doesn't necessarily multiply all his stats or a specific one he chooses to increase.

Dyspo being like Burter is irrelevant to my point.

I just told you why, and used in-universe examples to further my argument. Meanwhile, you haven't proven Babidi's magic isn't Ki-based using anything from the source material.

Being astounded that U9 doesn't use Ki like everyone else they had fought up to that point raises questions about your arguments regarding Babidi. Especially since you haven't been able to show proof or offer a semi-reasonable explanation to support you other than "Babidi weaker than Piccolo".

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#26 Posted by Arthur_Morgan (212 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher: dyspos speed got nothing to do with hax or hax resistence so to further what argument?

i already told the other guy that goku can amp his speed i thought you read the comments.

and yes he can.

kaioken gives him a boost from god knows where.

im talking about the ki he already , trunks vegeta and goku already proved they can balance their ki at will.

trunks used more power and sacrified speed, vegeta balanced it more and ssj is the most balanced.

if you dont think he can do the opposite of what trunks did than cleary you just debate for the sake of debating.

babidi used magic which is a fact and wether hi amps it with ki or not its powerful , so in the end of the day it doesnt change anything.

so vegetas pride can resist hax?

you know and i know it was his ki but toriyama wanted vegeta to look cool.

u9 doesnt use anything known for goku and co.

while babidi ues magic thats why they question it.

they already know what babidid does why would they question it?

nothing you said actualy helps your argument.

u9 argument is a huge stretch on your side and dyspos speed got nothing to with hax.

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#27 Posted by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@arthur_morgan:

You're not paying attention. I know Dyspo's speed has nothing to do with hax or hax resistance... I'm using it to further the point of how Ki doesn't increase everything proportional to power levels, therefore, your examples about Babidi being taken out by weaker characters falls flat. Not that it constituted much basis for his magic being Ki-based or not.

He can amp his speed with special techniques that function by increasing each stat.

Balancing Ki has next to no relevance to any point I made. They conceal their true power when it's convenient, but they don't just become stronger than they already were out of the blue.

Your Trunks example actually hurts your argument. Why couldn't Babidi do something similar by focusing the bulk of his power towards his magic, rather than physical attributes?

Yes, hence why Babidi's magic is a perfect example of hax that works on characters stronger than he is.

According to the manga at least. Nothing about a power difference was mentioned.

No, that's your unfounded speculation, but you can continue making brazen assumptions if it helps you sleep better.

U9 doesn't use Ki, which was unheard of as far as Goku and co were concerned. If they already have experience fighting a wizard that doesn't use Ki in the first place, their reaction would be redundant.

When do they question it?

My argument is simply that Babidi's magic is an example of hax working successfully on stronger characters, which is actually supported by the manga. Your argument pertaining to his magic being Ki based is both irrelevant and unfounded.

At this point, you seem to be replying presumably because you like attention. Show proof for your claims or I'll ignore any further response, as I have better things to spend my time on than arguing with a wall.

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#28 Posted by Arthur_Morgan (212 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher: again , there is no reason stated as to why dyspo is considered the speedster when he is not even the fastest out of the pride troopers.

see we assume he chooses to use more ki on speed and sacrifises strength.

dude, are you slow?

im not talking about gettin speed out of nowhere , im saying if he uses the ki used for strength instead for speed his speed is gonna increase basicly the opposite of what trunks did.

and what if dyspo is naturaly fast without ki?

your arguments dont even prove anything.

how does it contradict my point of them being able to manipulate ki at will?

they literaly showed it lmao.

ttey question it becouse they dont know what else they use and simply assumed they use ki.

babidi was known to use magic.

even whis stated hax stops working on ppl with higher power.

so the only thing to assume is babidi got strong magic.

atleast i have a in-universe basis as to why dyspo is considered the speedster and babidi‘s magic working.

you simply contradict what was shown in the series.

i can even go this route.

lets say dyspo is simply fast and is not on his ki based.

how does this contradict the fact that they can manipulate their ki?

lets say babidi use ki for his magic , how does it disprove my point?

so he got simply enough ki.

you are straight up going against what is shown in the series.

just stop.

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#29 Posted by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@arthur_morgan:

again , there is no reason stated as to why dyspo is considered the speedster when he is not even the fastest out of the pride troopers.

What? He's literally said to be the fastest character in the ToP. Stop inserting your opinion as fact.

see we assume he chooses to use more ki on speed and sacrifises strength.

No, we don't make half-witted assumptions and pass them off as fact. You're trying to create a theory that fits with your preconceived conclusions, when in fact actual logic works the other way around.

dude, are you slow?

No, but you certainly appear to be.

im not talking about gettin speed out of nowhere , im saying if he uses the ki used for strength instead for speed his speed is gonna increase basicly the opposite of what trunks did.

More groundless conjecture. Trunks used an actual transformation called USSJ, which bulks up the body with enough mass to grant them incredible power, but at the cost of speed. It has nothing to do with choosing how to use your Ki.

and what if dyspo is naturaly fast without ki?

And what if Babidi is naturally weak with Ki?

your arguments dont even prove anything.

Coming from the guy who keeps making baseless assumptions, that's quite rich.

how does it contradict my point of them being able to manipulate ki at will?

I didn't say it contradicted your point. Try learning to read better.

they literaly showed it lmao.

They only show them training to unlock a transformation greater than standard SSJ, and the one Trunks unlocked happens to decrease his speed due to the added mass.

ttey question it becouse they dont know what else they use and simply assumed they use ki.

I asked when they question it.

babidi was known to use magic.

You've yet to prove his magic isn't Ki-based. Not that it would matter.

even whis stated hax stops working on ppl with higher power.

Which is contradicted by Babidi's hax working on Dabura.

so the only thing to assume is babidi got strong magic.

That's stupid. Hax is hax regardless, and Whis states that techniques don't work as effectively when the target's power level is much greater than the one using said technique, so your conclusion doesn't add up.

atleast i have a in-universe basis as to why dyspo is considered the speedster and babidi‘s magic working.

You've provided nothing substantial as of now. In fact, you're reaching so hard that I'm worried you'll dislocate something.

you simply contradict what was shown in the series.

Let's see...

>Provides actual statement from the manga explaining why Vegeta was able to resist Babidi's magic

Opponent's reply: DuR tOrIyAmA dIdN'T aCtUaLlY mEaN iT sToP cOnTrAdIcTiNg ThE sErIeS

i can even go this route.

You mean the route you've been going since the start of this debate...?

lets say dyspo is simply fast and is not on his ki based.

how does this contradict the fact that they can manipulate their ki?

Nobody said they can't manipulate your Ki. Stop with the Straw-Man fallacies, please.

lets say babidi use ki for his magic , how does it disprove my point?

What would your point even be? Whether he uses Ki-based magic or not is honestly irrelevant. The fact is: His technique DOES work on characters with vastly superior power levels.

so he got simply enough ki.

you are straight up going against what is shown in the series.

just stop.

All I'm getting from this garbage is "I no longer have anything of value to add to the discussion".

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#30 Posted by Arthur_Morgan (212 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher: thats why vegeta could balance USSJ at will.

this is literaly ki manipulation.

USSJ is not even a real transformation, its ssj one concentrated on power.

goku showcased it and even cell did it to show trunks its worthless.

look, my “aasumption“ atleast got a in-universe basis.

you cant even explain me shit as to why thing are how they are.

lol at dyspo being the fastest ToP character.

it was just Toei being Toei , Jiren >>>>>dyspo.

toriyama himself said ki is everything.

so if dyspo is faster than Jiren than it cleary doesnt come from his ki.

you literaly never explained me why dyspo is faster or why babidi‘s magic worked.

hahaahah, your whole argument can be summed with “dyspo is faster and babidis magic just worked.“

dont respond if you just gonna repeat yourself.

you not only look slow but also like a slow broken record.

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#31 Edited by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@arthur_morgan:

Vegeta didn't use USSJ. That's a ASSJ.

Correct, for once. USSJ isn't an official name for the transformation; as it's just called SSJ Grade 3 in the guides. Either way, it doesn't take away from the point.

Never said it isn't worthless. That's beside the point...

But it really doesn't tho.

Retype that. It barely constitutes proper English.

And you're basing this off what? Again, you talk about your arguments having an in-universe basis, but you seem to completely disregard anything that comes from the series if it disagrees with your opinion.

He said there are physical limits to the body that can only be overcome via stronger Ki.

I did explain both of those actually. Dyspo is said to be the fastest character in all 12 universes in the series. That much is certain. Babidi's magic requires more speculation on both ends, but it at the end of the day, whether it's Ki-based or not doesn't affect the point of this thread.

I mean, if all you have to counter it with is inserting your own baseless claims and disregarding what's stated and shown in the series, you already lost.

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#32 Posted by infamous5445 (425 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait when was it said Dyspo was the fastest in the TOP? He couldn't even fully blitz Golden Frieza

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#33 Posted by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@infamous5445: He was said to be the fastest character in all 12 universes, which would include the ToP combatants:

No Caption Provided

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#34 Posted by infamous5445 (425 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher: That's literally the same thing as Burter saying he's the fastest in the universe.

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#35 Posted by falsearcher (290 posts) - - Show Bio

@infamous5445: Not really. Burter's statement was contradicted by Goku blitzing his ass right after it was made. Nobody got the better of Dyspo's full speed throughout the entire ToP, and they constantly remark on how impressive it was by showing that Zeno and the God Pad couldn't keep up.

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#36 Edited by Arthur_Morgan (212 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher: you didnt explain anything.

and nothing you said goes against my “assumption“

how does dyspo being the fastest goes against the fact that speed comes from ki in the end of the day?

if a character is ki based than his speed is based on his ki and thats a fact.

bottomline is, you cant tell me why dyspo is the fastest nor you can tell why babidi‘s magic worked.

i mean if you would tell me dyspo is naturaly fast as fuck and stacks his ki on top of it than he becomes the fastest than i would take you seriosly but you simply keep telling „he is fastest , his magic works“ and thats it.

im correct for once?

dont act stupid. assj and ussj are not real forms they are simply ssj with their ki balanced diffrently and were given names.

ssj 2 and ssj3 is where they actualy get ki on top their ki they already have.

USSJ simply takes the ki used for speed in ssj and gives it to power.

thanks to you i sound like a broken record becouse you not only cant explain me shit but you simply ignore my explaination which is how this fuckin series works and allways worked.

i rather listen to what whis said about higher ki > hax than you with your argument that have 0 explanation.

you simply telling me what happened in the series but thanks i watched it , too.

goku ignored time hax simply with higher ki and you want to tell me some simple magic cant be overcome by ki?

nappa ignored chiaotzu‘s telepathic powers by simply flexing ki.

vegetto was not 100% affected by buu‘s hax and if the gap would have been bigger he wouldnt be affected at all.

its your job to explain to me why becouse i have an in-universe reason as to why babidi‘s magic is not ki based or he concentrates all of his ki into his magic and already explained you.

so basicly no matter what you choose , wether its ki based or not you lose that argument becouse if its not ki based than he simply got strong enough magic and if its ki based than he is concentrating most of his ki into his magic thats why piccolo was easiely able to chop him.

same with dyspo , the only logical way for him to be the fastest and being a ki user is if his natural speed without ki is way faster than the others.

its sad that such a simple thing to explain is simply left out by Toriyama and Toei for some reason but its nothing new.

my assumption atleast comes with a explanation that follows how the series works but you didnt explain anything.

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#37 Posted by infamous5445 (425 posts) - - Show Bio

@falsearcher: The fact that even Frieza could somewhat keep up with SLSM Dyspo shows while his speed is a bit slower, it's in that ballpark whatever that is. Add in KK20 Goku, SSBE Vegeta, Jiren, etc, and you can most definitely say they're much faster and stronger than Frieza and by extension, Dyspo

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#38 Posted by Arthur_Morgan (212 posts) - - Show Bio

@infamous5445: this doesnt even matter.

if dyspo uses ki than his natural speed without ki needs to be way faster the natural speed of the others.

thats literaly the only explanation possible if dyspo is a ki user.

if he is like u9 and his power source is something unknown than what exactly is the argument here?

becouse it doesnt contradict anything hax related or anything ki related.

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