Son Goku's Black Hole Feat's Calculation!

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#101 Posted by Gaoron (4416 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: He didn't attempt to lift him in anime. I don't remember if the 1000 tons was a thing in anime but i'm 100% sure that Vegeta trying to lift Magetta was only in manga.

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#102 Edited by slimj87d (14397 posts) - - Show Bio

@gaoron: thanks. For a second I got confused from Nemesis post.

It's probably not wise to mix Manga and anime details and feats then. The events that transpire happen quite differently.

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#103 Posted by Gaoron (4416 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Yea I can bet characters power set is gonna be totally different in the manga. Ribrianne and Monna becoming a ball and rolling into opponent smells like Toei unoriginality from kilometers away.

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#104 Posted by nilok (619 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedeathstar: Black holes don't suck, they warp spacetime and change the direction of "down". This becomes problematic when the Grand Priest is modulating the gravity (curvature of spacetime) for everyone in the tournament.

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#105 Posted by devilmoonlight (138 posts) - - Show Bio
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#106 Posted by NemesisReloaded (1469 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d:

"Seems quite inconsistent to me, but then again we have characters like the flash that can deliver IMP punches but can't lift much weight himself due to how his powers work."

The IMP is nonsense. The only reason Flash can run that fast is supposed to be because of the Speedforce, and the speed force is supposed to stop him from feeling the effects of running stupid high speeds and what's more, stops the rest of the world from feeling those effects. But then the IMP is only supposed to work by going sub luminal relativistic speeds and gaining a lit of mass. You can't have it both ways. But it is what it is.

"I'm currently at work, but did Vegeta even attempt to lift Magetta in the anime?"

No, in the anime Vegeta never attempts to lift Magetta. Vegeta gets really angry and fires a final flash that Magetta tanks but gets pushed to the edge of the platform. He has a red aura. Vegeta punch and Magetta blocks, then Vegeta calls him names and Magetta suddenly is able to be pushed out of the arena.

The anime suggests its possible for Magetta to control his position with Ki, but as far as I can remember, in the manga, Magenta has no aura.

@thedeathstar

"I am perfectly aware of the term "Work" in science."

That's cool, just when I read your post is seemed like you were equating it with effort. My mistake.

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#107 Edited by NemesisReloaded (1469 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d:

"thanks. For a second I got confused from Nemesis post."

Apologies. What I was trying to say was, in the manga, Magenta looks like he's wondering what Vegeta is trying to do. As if he's not trying to stay on the floor. Vegeta manages to lift one of Magetta's feet about an inch and then Magetta hits Vegeta on the head.

I agree, Magetta is doing nothing to stay on the ground. Vegeta has managed to lift one foot. That's only half Magetta's weight Vegeta managed to lift just an inch. To me, Magetta hitting Vegeta on the head to stop him is supportive of Magetta having no ability to use Ki to control his position.

Edit:

I do also consider the "1,000 tonnes" to be fairly consistent with the 40 tonne base strength fail of Goku in DBZ. It also signifies what we already know, that strength doesn't scale linearly with power. It's also consistent with the gravity chamber feats, and the weighted clothes Whis gave them.

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#108 Edited by TheDeathstar (2879 posts) - - Show Bio

@nilok said:

@thedeathstar: Black holes don't suck, they warp spacetime and change the direction of "down". This becomes problematic when the Grand Priest is modulating the gravity (curvature of spacetime) for everyone in the tournament.

Indeed what they do. They warp spacetime.

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#109 Edited by NemesisReloaded (1469 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedeathstar

If you assume the heart is a warped sphere like this one:

No Caption Provided

And take this shape:

No Caption Provided

And these measurements:

No Caption Provided

And very crudely (sadly I know of no other way to do this other than crudely) do this to the heart shape:

No Caption Provided

And then attempt to create an oval that accounts for the warping, by equalling the gaps in the oval with the over-hangs, you can get a more accurate but still rough profile of the PBH:

No Caption Provided

Assuming the PBH is circular when viewed from above, the resulting calculable shape is an oblate spheroid with a volume of 2926.25m^3.

  • That volume in a sphere would have a radius of 8.87m
  • A black hole with a Schwarzchild Radius of 8.87m would have a mass of 5.97x10^27kg
  • And a surface gravity at the Event Horizon of 5.06x10^15 m/s^2 or 515,800,203,873,598.4 or 515.8 Trillion G's
  • Meaning that at the Event Horizon, Goku would weigh the equivalent of 38.685 Trillion Metric Tonnes on Earth

Inside the Event Horizon, however, where he actually stood up he would weight exponentially more. Impossible to say how much, because 8.87m is a very short distance to go from weighing the equivalent of 38.685 Trillion Metric Tonnes, to his weight being Infinite at the singularity.

EDIT:

I feel like this should have had comedy music as you read it - trying to be so specific after such butchery LOL

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#110 Edited by TheDeathstar (2879 posts) - - Show Bio

@nemesisreloaded said:

@thedeathstar

If you assume the heart is a warped sphere like this one:

No Caption Provided

And take this shape:

No Caption Provided

And these measurements:

No Caption Provided

And very crudely (sadly I know of no other way to do this other than crudely) do this to the heart shape:

No Caption Provided

And then attempt to create an oval that accounts for the warping, by equalling the gaps in the oval with the over-hangs, you can get a more accurate but still rough profile of the PBH:

No Caption Provided

Assuming the PBH is circular when viewed from above, the resulting calculable shape is an oblate spheroid with a volume of 2926.25m^3.

  • That volume in a sphere would have a radius of 8.87m
  • A black hole with a Schwarzchild Radius of 8.87m would have a mass of 5.97x10^27kg
  • And a surface gravity at the Event Horizon of 5.06x10^15 m/s^2 or 515,800,203,873,598.4 or 515.8 Trillion G's
  • Meaning that at the Event Horizon, Goku would weigh the equivalent of 38.685 Trillion Metric Tonnes on Earth

Inside the Event Horizon, however, where he actually stood up he would weight exponentially more. Impossible to say how much, because 8.87m is a very short distance to go from weighing the equivalent of 38.685 Trillion Metric Tonnes, to his weight being Infinite at the singularity.

EDIT:

I feel like this should have had comedy music as you read it - trying to be so specific after such butchery LOL

Good one. Close to my 34.3 Trillion tons. Yea I know it feels stupid to go into details sometimes. The inside can't be explained properly lol.

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#111 Posted by NemesisReloaded (1469 posts) - - Show Bio

Good one. Close to my 34.3 Trillion tons. Yea I know it feels stupid to go into details sometimes. The inside can't be explained properly lol.

This wasn't lost on me.

What are the chances you'd use a smaller heart and a radius from the middle to the point, put some Goku's head to toe and come up with almost exactly the same radius and me using a bigger heart, fudging the shape to get an ellipse, calculating a sphere radius from its volume? LMAO

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#112 Edited by TheDeathstar (2879 posts) - - Show Bio
@nemesisreloaded said:
@thedeathstar said:

Good one. Close to my 34.3 Trillion tons. Yea I know it feels stupid to go into details sometimes. The inside can't be explained properly lol.

This wasn't lost on me.

What are the chances you'd use a smaller heart and a radius from the middle to the point, put some Goku's head to toe and come up with almost exactly the same radius and me using a bigger heart, fudging the shape to get an ellipse, calculating a sphere radius from its volume? LMAO

Don't know lol certainly a coincidence but I have known this method for a while. Thing is that these answers they just exist, we just need methods to approach it, be it different would reach same conclusions if it's done correctly. Science and measurement, such a wonderful thing.

Here's an example of how we reach where we want to with different approaches (I derived it also for people to understand how it works)

F=Ma, M=F/a and a=F/M

We can find the same thing using this, D=M/V

So, M=DV

F/a=DV [Therefore, M=F/a)

a=F/DV

a= F/M [Therefore, M=Density*Volume or M=DV]

50553072193976.11m/s^2=F/68 Kg

F=50553072193976.11m/s^2*68Kg

F=3.4376089091904*10^15kg/1000 = 3.4376089091904*10^12 * 10 (Planet Vegeta's Gravity)= 34.376089091904*10^12 tons.

Same thing.

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#113 Edited by TheDeathstar (2879 posts) - - Show Bio

So, this thread got into Seth's video lmao..

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#114 Posted by Firestorm808 (373 posts) - - Show Bio
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#115 Edited by GokuAndSuperman (302 posts) - - Show Bio

I wonder if Seth read these threads during his free time?

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#116 Edited by TheDeathstar (2879 posts) - - Show Bio

@firestorm808: Well Seth already knows me through Ryuu who was my wiki partner and has his own channel.

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#117 Posted by Galactic_1000 (4232 posts) - - Show Bio

Does Seth the wanker has Comic vine account

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#118 Posted by TheDeathstar (2879 posts) - - Show Bio

Does Seth the wanker has Comic vine account

Who knows.....

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#119 Posted by seththeprogram (2 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedeathstar:

It's probably bit late but kudos to you man for the black hole calculation.

I wonder if Seth read these threads during his free time?

No Caption Provided

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#120 Edited by TheDeathstar (2879 posts) - - Show Bio
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#122 Edited by Trask10100 (143 posts) - - Show Bio

@thedeathstar: I love this methodology! And nemesis's addition also improves upon your method, so this is a great work overall. However, I did find some mistakes in your math. It happened early on, when you used the Gravitational Constant. You accidentally put on 11 zeros in front of the numbers, when instead it should have been 10. 10 x -11 comes out to 10 zeros, not the 11 that it implies. This is a common mistake. You then further compounded the issue when you put on 11 zeroes on 2G, when it should have been 9. Then on top of that you gave the wrong number for your tons. You had 60 septillion kg, which would have become 600 sextillion tons. As a result, your final answer was off by a factor of 100. So it should look like this:

G = .0000000000667408

2G = .0000000001334816

M = 6 septillion tons

After that though you were sound, you just had the wrong numbers. So using these corrected numbers, let's find out what the final result is via this path!

GM = 399,946,054,537,883,849.8

r^2 = 79.21

Acceleration of Black Hole = 5,049,186,397,397,851 m/s^2

Compared to Earth = 514,855,347,955,322 times Earth's gravity, or 515 trillion times for short

Goku's weight = 62 kg (Not sure where the 68 kg came from, I'm just using the Wiki, correct me if I'm wrong. Thankfully it doesn't make a huge different either way.)

Weight of the Black Hole's gravity = 313,049,556,638,667 tons, or 313 trillion tons for short

And since Nemesis managed to improve the measurement of the Black Hole, we can determine a new radius for the Black Hole and come up with an even more accurate number:

Black Hole width: 18.468m

Black Hole Radius = 9.234m

C Squared = 89,875,517,873,681,764

r x C Squared = 829,910,532,045,577,408.776

M = 6,217,415,224,612,061,952,928,343 tons, or 6.2 septillion tons for short

r^2 = 85.27

GM = 414,955,266,022,788,704.388

Acceleration of Black Hole = 4,866,368,781,784,786 m/s^2

Compared to Earth = 496,213,804,607,401 times Earth's gravity, or 496 trillion times for short

Weight of the Black Hole's gravity = 301,714,864,470,657 tons, or 302 trillion tons for short

Strangely enough, the added radius actually decreases the weight of the gravity of this black hole, mostly because the center of gravity is further away and it's not a big enough difference to make up for it with added volume. The black hole would have to be much bigger for its added mass to overcome its bigger radius. This is an example of one that hasn't reached that threshold yet. In any case, this is a wonderful calculation and it will benefit all of my future calculations by a huge margin. Thanks for the method, this is a big help!

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#123 Posted by TheDeathstar (2879 posts) - - Show Bio

@trask10100: A simple calculation can do wonders no? hah thanks.

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#124 Posted by kasya_carey (3459 posts) - - Show Bio

Wouldn’t this feat go to 17 and 18 durability too since they were able to withstand it?

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#125 Edited by Galactic_1000 (4232 posts) - - Show Bio

Is that seththeprogram SethTheWanker?o_O

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#126 Posted by TheDeathstar (2879 posts) - - Show Bio
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#127 Posted by Galactic_1000 (4232 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheDeathstar: Lol He also need to follow that link https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/dragon-ball-universe-1775304/dragonball-universe-standardised-feats-list-1847904/?_e_pi_=7%2CPAGE_ID10%2C5511046160 if he wants to known as DB expert more than DB Wanker

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#128 Posted by RukelnikovFTW (3860 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheDeathstar: Lol He also need to follow that link https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/dragon-ball-universe-1775304/dragonball-universe-standardised-feats-list-1847904/?_e_pi_=7%2CPAGE_ID10%2C5511046160 if he wants to known as DB expert more than DB Wanker

Nah, that thread is for db trolls

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#129 Edited by TheDeathstar (2879 posts) - - Show Bio

@rukelnikovftw: Yea some of them seriously think Dyspo is the first FTL+ character lmao despite the fact it was never mentioned like that and Z characters already were close to Relativistic - Lightspeed.

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#130 Posted by Galactic_1000 (4232 posts) - - Show Bio

@rukelnikovftw: If so Why don't you go there & show your calc to them?

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#131 Edited by RukelnikovFTW (3860 posts) - - Show Bio

@rukelnikovftw: If so Why don't you go there & show your calc to them?

I left the thread when it became obvious it was just a massive lowball

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#132 Posted by Galactic_1000 (4232 posts) - - Show Bio

@rukelnikovftw: I didn't see any of your proof how they are wrong in there.

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#133 Edited by RukelnikovFTW (3860 posts) - - Show Bio

@galactic_1000 said:

@rukelnikovftw: I didn't see any of your proof how they are wrong in there.

What would be the point? Even when @nemesisreloaded accepted moving in a time stop was way beyond light speed, he still said Goku was only light speed, so no reason to keep posting there.

EDIT: tagged nemesis, don't want to talk in his back.

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#134 Posted by Galactic_1000 (4232 posts) - - Show Bio

@rukelnikovftw: I believe it was time skip.Also He did explain that you need to read the link again.

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#135 Posted by RukelnikovFTW (3860 posts) - - Show Bio

@rukelnikovftw: I believe it was time skip.Also He did explain that you need to read the link again.

Not interested right now, maybe another time.

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#136 Edited by Deal (44 posts) - - Show Bio

Good work TheDeathstar. Might help some Dragonball low ballers to get some education.

And about that Vegeta lifting thing.

I would like clear some people doubt that Beerus stated that the weight of Magetta was over 1000 tons, not 1000 ton :-). As all ready mentioned, Goku and Vegeta in their base form did thumb push up with suits soo much heavy that it even sank through Beerus's Planet.

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#137 Posted by TheDeathstar (2879 posts) - - Show Bio

@deal said:

Good work TheDeathstar. Might help some Dragonball low ballers to get some education.

And about that Vegeta lifting thing.

I would like clear some people doubt that Beerus stated that the weight of Magetta was over 1000 tons, not 1000 ton :-). As all ready mentioned, Goku and Vegeta in their base form did thumb push up with suits soo much heavy that it even sank through Beerus's Planet.

Vegeta lifting Magetta thing is really nothing since Magetta was trying to resist him being lifted up.

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#138 Posted by deactivated-5a8cc534c1631 (116 posts) - - Show Bio

I wonder why when some characters in DB get feats it's always doubted and every lowballer gives his best to debunk it.

But when some characters like Anti-Spiral gets some nonsense feat like throwing galaxies mftl away even though it's impossible,because according to logic and science conventional matter can't travel past light speed because matter would evaporate and the galaxies were just fine and no one complains about the logic behind that feat.

Bunch of people on this thread doubt the black hole feat just because of some faulty logic that it doesn't look like a proper black hole.Give it a rest,obviously the writers of the show aren't scientists.

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#139 Posted by NemesisReloaded (1469 posts) - - Show Bio

@white_doge: They don't have to be. Its just some writers are interested in once in a while having characters say or do something that quantifiable. They have Superman specifically stated to be lifting the mass of the earth for 5 days straight without sunlight or rest, and he has plenty in the tank for more. They have the Flash rescue half a million people from a nuclear detonation in 1 microsecond, planting them all 30 miles away (or something like that). They have Thor destroy a planet with the force of a hammer strike. Saitama was kneed into space and threw his boot so hard in the opposite direction he went back to Earth/he jumped from the Moon to the Earth.

When Dragonball does things like this, they use "0.1 seconds" or that an entire episode represents 1 minute of time. Or that Goku cant lift 40 tonnes in base....
NONE of that is impressive at all. When you consider that, why is anyone called a lowballer? The show does it way better than anyone here ever could. But then while Goku can't lift 40tonnes and Hit can't move from one side of the arena to the other in 0.1s, you get people saying "They've been light speed since Namek". Based on what? Desire? You think the writer of the flash was considering science when he said "one micro-second"? No. He just said something that sounded like a short period of time. I dont think he was calculating that he'd be moving at trillions of times the speed of light. If they did the same thing in DB these debates wouldn't keep happening.

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#140 Posted by deactivated-5a8cc534c1631 (116 posts) - - Show Bio

@nemesisreloaded: I agree though that DB should get more clear feats,but saying it isn't black hole just because it doesn't look like one is just kinda....

If i get your point you say that the writer shouldn't contradict his feats right?I agree on that part,i wished the writers keep more consistency on this show and those ''doubts'' would drastically decrease.And i personally believe most of the contradictions in DB are happening due to the plot aka when writers want to show the main character struggle or unable to do something that the writers think is hard to do but it actually isn't and they just contradicted themselves about how powerful they wanted to present the character.

But what is your opinion on this topic specifically,is what Goku did really a black hole feat?

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#141 Edited by NemesisReloaded (1469 posts) - - Show Bio

@white_doge: At first I was fairly angered by how unlike a black hole this "black hole" was - nothing to do with the heart shape - primarily because the gravity should be enormous, but it isn't. So I accept that this could have been animated by people who think that a smaller black hole would have lower gravity, even though at that distance it would actually be higher, but what this does is mean that it's not a true black hole feat, and that angers me too. People saying it is are ignoring that this would be a drastically weaker "black hole" than it should have been, and because of that even if you say it's a black hole, you can't use black hole equations to discern Goku's feat.

There's a lot of bias when it comes to this feat, that people hear words like "the weight of their love focused into one point to create a mass of gravity" and they say that's what a black hole is. It isn't. It bears a vague similarity to that of a black hole, thats it. There are other clues though, and they tend to get ignored.

One is that Goku tries to instant transmission out of the Pretty Black Hole and fails. It's worth bearing in mind that teleportation is not travel, or instantaneous movement, it's the change from one location in space to another without motion. There is no reason for gravity to prevent teleportation since there's no attempt to overcome escape velocity. It's translocation, not transportation.

The next is that unlike when Whis guesses what it is when he says "It must be", the Universe 2 guys that use the technique call it "a cage of love". If it's a cage, it suddenly makes sense why IT doesn't work. The PBH is a cage or prison, we are expressly told so. Remember, U2's GoD says "Love that is too heavy can bind and torture".

Lastly, the nature of the PBH is different before and after it has captured someone. Beforehand, it warps in shape and size and it even splits in two when absorbing A18's ki blast. But after it captures 17, 18 and Goku, it becomes solid, no longer absorbs anything and becomes massively heavy. As the Universe 2 guys say, "It's weight shatters the Earth and sinks!". So before, it was malleable and after it was uncompromising.

So, taking account of everything that is said about the PBH and not just some of it, it seems clear to me that its not really a black hole at all, that's just a name (not the first one to have "black hole" in it either). It's actually a trap. When empty, it has a loose and malleable nature and absorbs using gravity. Then when someone is inside, it "binds and tortures" them in a "cage of love", becomes solid, no longer lets anything in or out and its's weight "shatters the Earth and sinks".

As I've said before,

No Caption Provided

But feel free to ignore my reasonings. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person on the internet that thinks this way.

---------------

All that said, it didn't stop me calculating the gravity at the event horizon on the presumption it was an actual black hole that size.

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#142 Posted by Xdragon2002 (485 posts) - - Show Bio
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#143 Edited by deactivated-5a8cc534c1631 (116 posts) - - Show Bio

@nemesisreloaded: That's my point though,when the writers decided to call it black hole they didn't think of the logical properties it should have and now it's credibility is doubted by the users.

Like 95% feats of DB franchise

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#144 Edited by NemesisReloaded (1469 posts) - - Show Bio

@white_doge: I get that, there are names that seem to accurately describe the attack [Energy Circle Slash : Energy Control Cannon : Turtle Destruction Wave etc], but there are also names that don't [Feasible Wave : Demon Flash : Evil Sealing Wave etc] , and it's not the first time a technique has had a "black hole" name and not been a black hole either. The original Japanese name for the Dead Zone used by Garlic Junior is "Black Hole Wave", but I very much doubt anyone is giving Gohan as black hole feat here.

No Caption Provided

So I don't hold too much stock in names, though they are informative, but if a character is describing what the attack they are using actually is, shouldn't we also listen to that?

BTW, it's also irksome that Toppo's Hakai on Golden Frieza had some better qualities of a black hole than the PBH. As I said, a lot of the time in DB, the name is informative, but not absolute. The Turtle Destruction Wave is a destruction wave created by the Turtle Hermit. The Evil Sealing Wave is a sealing wave designed to trap evil, but it also works on good people. The Great Solar Fist is the brightness of the sun, but it's not a physical attack as "fist" indicates. Even the more accurate names still have their extravagances, so take them with a pinch of salt.

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#145 Posted by deactivated-5a8cc534c1631 (116 posts) - - Show Bio

@nemesisreloaded: At what level do you consider DB characters to be regarding destructive output,speed,durability and physical raw strength according to your science opinion?

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#146 Posted by NemesisReloaded (1469 posts) - - Show Bio

@white_doge: I consider Beerus to be outright around Galaxy Level, SSB to be around micro galaxy level in destructive output. I don't consider Beerus to be outright Universal unless he has a strong god opponent like SSG or another GoD to build off of. I think SSB is probably Light Speed, but measurable feats dont support it. but he's certainly not less than 0.1C. I think that they have enormous energy but can only do with it what they train to, so because they train for stamina and speed, they can throw a lot of punch and move fast, but that means their physical strength is lacking, and it is. There are ways in which to calculate higher strengths using stills and manga panels, but they can contradict stated strength feats, like 40Tonnes.

I and others have said many times that speed and strength don't scale directly with an increase in Ki unless it via Kaioken. This is why, despite the enormous increase from Base to SSB, Goku is still only shown to be roughly light speed, and why the first stated lightspeed character is Dyspo, though we since know that SSBKKx20, UI, Jiren and Golden Frieza are all also FTL.

Manga-wise I'd base SSB strength on Vegeta being able to lift his own bodyweight fairly well in base 300G's, suggesting that he could maybe lift around 3x that in that gravity (same as elite athletes) - which would be the 1G equivalent of 67 tonnes. I dont see any issue with Vegeta actually being Phsyically stronger than Goku, Vegeta frequently trains in higher gravity and trains his Ki for that. This does mean that Vegeta would get 50 times more powerful in Super Saiyan form, but struggle to lift something 7.5x heavier than his assumed max - half of Magetta. So from this you might infer that as Ki increases by 1, strength increases by 0.15. From this I'd say SSB is somewhere in the 1.5-2 billion tonne range. In the anime, this would be higher, since they are physically stronger in the anime.

Using a similar scaling for strike force, I'd put it at between 200-400 exaNewtons, and should be able to shatter a smallish moon in the same way SS3 Goku did King Kai's planet.

When it comes to durability, it's purely down to what kind of Ki barrier they can put up at any one time. If Goku doesn't put one up he gets a bruise from a bullet or pierced through by a laser. If Krillin doesn't, a bullet will go through his flesh but not his bones. They are far more durable when it comes to a Ki attack than they are a physical assault, but personally, I think the characters can take roughly what they can dish out.

So for SSB, I have

  • Destructive Output: Micro Galaxy ≈ 10 million Suns
  • Speed ≈ lightspeed or >0.1C
  • Physical strength ≈ 1.75 billion metric tonnes
  • Impact force ≈ 300 exaNewtons
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#147 Edited by deactivated-5a8cc534c1631 (116 posts) - - Show Bio

@nemesisreloaded: Do you consider power scaling valid way of measuring characters's powers because some user deny power scaling,statements and calculations and say such things:

''The Grand Priest never destroyed anything so that must mean he is infinitely weaker than an ant''

What do you think about that?

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#148 Posted by Dession_Viper (266 posts) - - Show Bio

That isn't a real black hole. irrelevant thread.

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#149 Posted by NemesisReloaded (1469 posts) - - Show Bio

@nemesisreloaded: Do you consider power scaling valid way of measuring characters's powers because some user deny power scaling,statements and calculations and say such things:

''The Grand Priest never destroyed anything so that must mean he is infinitely weaker than an ant''

What do you think about that?

That's obvious nonsense.

If you get into a debate and it's feats only, then the Grand Priest can't win, even against Tim Drake and that's daft, but at the same time, when you use scaling everyone has their own version.

For me its been a long time obvious that neither speed nor strength scale directly with an increase in Ki. They do scale upwards, but not a direct increase. For example, I just showed that for Vegeta, as his Ki increases 50-fold, you could say that his physical strength increases 7.5 -fold (15% of his ki increase). I'm actually pretty comfortable with that, and I'm fairly certain Toriyama had a lower increase in mind too because otherwise there's no use in Kaioken, whose specific quality is to multiply ALL attributes by the same amount. Aside from that, I'm also fine with using Magetta and 300Gs because Whis tells us that both Goku and Vegeta are pretty much as powerful as they can be, they've reached their limits, so that's fine too.

The above goes for speed too, but speed is only quantified twice in all of Dragonball, once in DB when Goku runs 100m in 8.5 seconds and in the Tournament of Power when Dyspo is said to exceed light speed. That's it. They are 531 episodes apart. The next closest thing to a quantifiable speed is when Goku takes a day to traverse the 1,000,000km Snake Way, but it isn't straight and he skips a lot of it, but most estimations would give Goku with PL 8000 a speed of mach 15-20. Whats clear though is that if you scale speed directly with Ki increases, they'd be way faster than they actually are according to the show/manga. So the speed increase isn't direct either, but I have no idea what it is could be.

When it comes to comparing one character to another, I don't see a problem with it as long as its done reasonably.

Take comparing SSG to Beerus. Beerus wasn't using anything close to his true power against SSG Goku, but some people will say that SSG Goku is MFTL because Beerus is MFTL because he caught up with Whis on that planet trying to find a particular food. That's garbage though since Beerus wasn't even close to his best against SSG. Or people will say SSG is Universal because Beerus vs Champa would destroy 2 universes which means Beerus is Universal by himself and since SSG is equal to Beerus, SG is Universal. That's also garbage, and has since been proven that Beerus is far stronger than SSB, let alone SSG.

The safest way to do it is to make sure that one or both of the two fighters are going all out. So if you know the capabilities of A, and A is going all out but B can keep up, then you can scale B against A. If B can't keep up with A then that also tells you something. If however you know the capabilities of A and B is able to keep up but A isn't going all out, then you don't know anything and can't scale them against each other.

So yeah it's fine to do as long as its done reasonably. The problem is that people aren't always reasonable. And that's without the issues of Dyspo for example, who is the fastest in the ToP at full speed but is weaker than Ultimate Gohan, and he's so far the only character who's faster than his own ki blasts.

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#150 Posted by deactivated-5a8cc534c1631 (116 posts) - - Show Bio

@nemesisreloaded: Just one more question the bothered me for a while-

Do you think Dyspo at his full speed can touch Mastered Ultra Instinct and is faster than Jiren at full speed and power?

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