So is saiyan beyond god a real thing?

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Scotchbear

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#1  Edited By Scotchbear

We have seen base copy vegeta curbstomping ssj3 gotenks, yet goku goes ssj2 against trunks for their mini fight, even though he should be able to stomp him in base as well.

So goku and vegeta have to have some god ki in base form? Idk it seems like an inconsistency. Any thoughts?

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Thedarkpaladin

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Super is all sorts of ****** up in the power scaling department at the moment. The best theory so far is that Goku can utilize God Ki at will, but we will have to wait and hope Toriyama will provide some sort of explanation.

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Scotchbear

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Thedarkpaladin

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RehBeh

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It's a thing in Dragon Ball Heroes and both Manga and Anime of DB Super proved it to be. Let me explain.

We first meet with this form when Goku fights Beerus. His SSG power ends but he continues the battle as Base/SS. Beerus comments that he somehow utilized the power of the God without being transformed into one. Later after training with Whis both Son Goku and Vegeta master that state allowing them to use the full power of God as Base. That's showed in the Manga:

No Caption Provided

It should be noted that this form does not have the benefits of the SSG(Healing Factor, Absorb Attacks etc.)

Now onto the Universe 6 Warriors Arc.

Chapter 13 proves that the God Ki is ON-OFF. First Goku fights at Base both Botamo and Frost. Later he uses SS to fight Frost final form. That's the first hint. He did not go Blue. If he used Gok Ki he should become SSGSS and not just a mere SS. When Vegeta fights Cabba he turns from regular SS to SSGSS, hinting that he switched to God Ki. But the definitive proof comes from Goku vs Hit in the new chapter. Goku becomes again the Red haired SSG!

No Caption Provided

So his Base can Change to Saiyan Beyond God if he want's or the other way around. To round things up: Goku Base(Normal Ki)-Super Saiyan-SSG-SSGSS or SBG(Godly Ki)-SSGSS. Hope this helps.

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emperorthanos-

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#6 emperorthanos-  Moderator

yeah it is from the looks of things.

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never give up

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Lmao SSG Goku>SSGSS Vegeta

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Sam90A

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@scotchbear: Its just confusing. Its Goku /Vegeta/Gohan/Goten/Trunks/Future Trunks/Goten/Baby Trunks/ any saiyan's choice and most importantly creator's choice which form will be used. Dont crack your brain on this. I stopped already thinking about transformations.

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Aimless

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It's a way better name than super saiyan god super saiyan or ssb that's for sure

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ad-arts

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@scotchbear: yet goku goes ssj2 against trunks for their mini fight, even though he should be able to stomp him in base as well.

DId at any point Goku say, he went SSJ2 because he had to? NO. Goku can control his KI. Just because he goes SSJ, does not mean he cannot lower his KI to the other guy's level, because he can.

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APEX_pretador

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We have seen base copy vegeta curbstomping ssj3 gotenks, yet goku goes ssj2 against trunks for their mini fight, even though he should be able to stomp him in base as well.

So goku and vegeta have to have some god ki in base form? Idk it seems like an inconsistency. Any thoughts?

He did not want to stomp trunks in base form. He was just powering up sothat trunks can sense him & compare him to black's ki.

Also, they do not have god ki in base.

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Sean12345

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@ad-arts said:

@scotchbear: yet goku goes ssj2 against trunks for their mini fight, even though he should be able to stomp him in base as well.

DId at any point Goku say, he went SSJ2 because he had to? NO. Goku can control his KI. Just because he goes SSJ, does not mean he cannot lower his KI to the other guy's level, because he can.

Trunks can't feel Godly Ki. In order to gauge Black's power Goku had to use normal ki.

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ad-arts

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@sean12345: Trunks can't feel Godly Ki. In order to gauge Black's power Goku had to use normal ki.

The only Ki othere people could not sense is SSG.

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TheDeathstar

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#14  Edited By TheDeathstar

First of all Manga isn't canon to the Anime. Anime have it's own canon, have major Direction with Akira and is not only the first one to start but is also ahead of Manga which is only used as a promotional material. Second, SSGSS Vegeta>>SSG Goku. Vegeta was only surprised in the Manga but it doesn't affect Anime either way (can be used as a hint). Also putting SSG was Toyotaro's Idea

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alextheboss

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@thedeathstar: Akira doesn't work with the anime any more than the manga. Akira is actually friends with the guy who does the manga and they did an interview together where Toriayam wouldn't mind Toyotaro coming up with ideas for super.

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alextheboss

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#16  Edited By alextheboss

@apex_pretador: The fight with Trunks makes it seem like Goku needed to go ssj3 to clearly surpass Trunks. If his base was actually stronger than ssj2 Trunks he wouldn't of transformed he would of just powered up his ki in his base. It seems to me Goku wasn't much stronger than his buu saga counterpart in his fight with Trunks.

To me it seems like he can power up to his "saiyan beyond god form" like Gohan powered up to his ultimate form.

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deactivated-57cc010f9e749

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HighAccuser

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You mean DBZ wank? Yes

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never give up

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alextheboss

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#20  Edited By alextheboss

@nerevarine_11 said:

You mean DBZ wank? Yes

I don't understand what you are saying. The problem is their is a massive inconcistency in Goku's and Vegeta's base form. Sometimes it's strong like when Vegeta one shot Tagoma, when Goku fought a traiined final form Frieza, when Goku fought Hit, and when copy Vegeta stomped ssj3 Gotenks, and sometimes it's weak, like when Goku and Vegeta had to transform to fight Frost, Magetta, and Cabba, and now more recently when Goku transformed to fight Trunks.

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alextheboss

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@superproherohunter: How is getting pushed back in his ssj2 state showing off? If Goku wanted to show off he should of stayed in base and one shot Trunks.

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deactivated-57cc010f9e749

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@alextheboss:

pushed back really? all trunks did some punches and it was over goku was not even trying, goku only used ssj3 to show that there is level beyond ssj2.

Loading Video...

watch this preview where goku is using ssj2 to fight black, does this mean trunks is stronger than black.

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alextheboss

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@superproherohunter: Kid Trunks literally said Goku was being pushed back...

I know ssj2 Goku is stronger than ssj2 Trunks, but not by a crazy amount. Maybe two times stronger at most.

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deactivated-57cc010f9e749

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@alextheboss: Are you really taking kid Trunks words so seriously even ssj2 vegeta pushed backed beerus plus he also made beerus bleed.

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alextheboss

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@superproherohunter: ssj2 Vegeta was able to push back a suppressed Beerus. If Goku was suppressed he would of just powered up more he wouldn't of went right to ssj3. ssj2 is supposedly only 2x ssj. So that means Goku was using at least half his power as a ssj2 or he would of just been a normal ssj.

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ad-arts

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#26  Edited By ad-arts

@alextheboss: ssj2 Vegeta was able to push back a suppressed Beerus.

Well there you go you answered your own question. Goku even when SSJ2 was suppressed. Cannot he suppress his powers? Sure he can. What is the big deal, why so many people have a hard time believing Goku CAN'T lower his ki at will, even just to match Trunks ki. Well, he can.

If Goku was suppressed he would of just powered up more he wouldn't of went right to ssj3.

So now you are telling Goku what he was supposed to do? He went SSJ3 just to show there is an SSJ3. He can still lower his KI to basically none, even when SSJ3.

So that means Goku was using at least half his power as a ssj2 or he would of just been a normal ssj.

It does not mean anything. Stop overthinking it, easiest answer = ki control to match Trunk's KI. Simple as that.

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MajinBlackheart

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#27 MajinBlackheart  Moderator

Lmao SSG Goku>SSGSS Vegeta

That's really the way it should be.

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alextheboss

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@ad-arts: If Goku's base could one shot Trunks he wouldn't of transformed, it's as simple as that.

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ad-arts

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#29  Edited By ad-arts

@alextheboss: Trunks is not his enemy. Goku wanted to show him SSJ transformations, it does not mean he had to use any significant percentage of his power. WHy? Because even when SSJ Goku can still lower his ki as to little as he wants. Why didnt he go SSB and rotflstomp him from the start, before Trunks even had a chance to say a word? Why didnt he go straith to SSB with Black? And again you are saying Goku can switch on and off his God's Ki, but cannot lower his KI instead - simple thing that everybody can do.

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alextheboss

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@ad-arts: Where did it say Goku wanted to show Trunks his transformations? He was just trying to show off his power and see how he compared to Black.

Goku didn't go ssb because he didn't need to. He went ssj2 because he did. I agree he went ssj3 to show off, and he could of won with just ssj2, but he couldn't of just won with his regular base form. If he could of then the writers did a bad job of showing it.

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ad-arts

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#31  Edited By ad-arts

@alextheboss:

Where did it say Goku wanted to show Trunks his transformations?

Ekhm, his own words? "what do you think of SSJ3"...

Then Trunks said. You went beyond super saiyan which surpas regular super saiyan. Goku was clearly showing him that first, he is SSJ2 too, and then there is SSJ3...

He went ssj2 because he did

He did what... Man watch DBS again. Goku said:

SSJ2 right of the bat? Then I will too...

It does not mean he did it because he had to. He did it because he can. There is many ways to look at it, but not to you i guess.

but he couldn't of just won with his regular base form

Prove it... no wait, you can't. Knowing that Goku CAN manipulat his KI, he could be fighting when SSJ2, but still using less power then max base form. Tell me I am wrong. Cannot Goku use less power in SSJ, then in base if he wants to?

If he could of then the writers did a bad job of showing it.

Yeah if you look at it the way you look at it. Who said Goku wanted to defeat Trunks in the first place. Maybe he just wanted to show him he can also transform to SSJ2, then SSJ3. Maybe he simply did not want to show Trunks That he is so op that he can stomp him in base? They are friends after all. Goku isnt a showing off type of guy. If it was Vegeta, he would not have transformed and destroyed him in base. But Goku isn't Vegeta.

Just because he can go SSJ2, does not by auto means he has to.

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alextheboss

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#32  Edited By alextheboss

@ad-arts:

Ekhm, his own words? "what do you think of SSJ3"...

Then Trunks said. You went beyond super saiyan which surpas regular super saiyan. Goku was clearly showing him that first, he is SSJ2 too, and then there is SSJ3...

Like I said in my last post, he went ssj3 to show off, but he went ssj2 to match Trunks.

It does not mean he did it because he had to. He did it because he can. There is many ways to look at it, but not to you i guess.

I agree there are many ways to look at it, but the fact is he went ssj2, then he got pushed back and went ssj3.

Prove it... no wait, you can't. Knowing that Goku CAN manipulat his KI, he could be fighting when SSJ2, but still using less power then max base form. Tell me I am wrong. Cannot Goku use less power in SSJ, then in base if he wants to?

I think Goku's regular base form isn't enough to beat ssj2 Trunks, but his saiyan beyond god form is.

base<<<ssj<ssj2<<ssj3<<saiyan beyond god(base with god ki)<<ssg<ssb(ssj with god ki)

Yeah if you look at it the way you look at it. Who said Goku wanted to defeat Trunks in the first place.

Goku one shot Trunks after he went ssj3...

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ad-arts

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#33  Edited By ad-arts

@alextheboss: but the fact is he went ssj2, then he got pushed back

And what is this suppose to prove? If he goes SSJ2 he is automatically using max power he can achieve in SSJ2? He cannot lower his KI below base form, is that what you are saying?

Goku one shot Trunks after he went ssj3...

So why didnt he go SSJ3 from the start or SSB from the start and one shot him?

Seeing as you continue to avoid answering to my questions, its probably a good stopping point. One sided conversation will not get us anywhere.

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alextheboss

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@ad-arts:

And what is this suppose to prove? If he goes SSJ2 he is automatically using max power he can achieve in SSJ2? He cannot lower his KI below base form, is that what you are saying?

If ssj2 is 2x ssj1, then at the lowest Goku was using 51% of his power.

So why didnt he go SSJ3 from the start or SSB from the start and one shot him?

Because he wanted to spar with Trunks.

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APEX_pretador

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nope

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APEX_pretador

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We have seen base copy vegeta curbstomping ssj3 gotenks, yet goku goes ssj2 against trunks for their mini fight, even though he should be able to stomp him in base as well.

  1. Trunks is a LOT stronger than he used to be. There have been 13 years since cell games. Even beerus called him impressive.
  2. Goku did not want to curbstomp trunks. He just wanted to have trunks compare him & black's ki. Since black >> base goku, he needed to go SS2 & even SS3.
  3. Goku was holding back, not even trying to fight back against trunks.

So goku and vegeta have to have some god ki in base form? Idk it seems like an inconsistency. Any thoughts?

No, they have no god ki in base because god ki can't be sensed but base can be sensed.

@rehbeh said:

It's a thing in Dragon Ball Heroes

games don't count.

and both Manga and Anime of DB Super proved it to be. Let me explain.

lets see

We first meet with this form when Goku fights Beerus. His SSG power ends but he continues the battle as Base/SS. Beerus comments that he somehow utilized the power of the God without being transformed into one.

He absorbed SSG power in their fight, that does not confirm the existence of the so called "saiyan beyond god"

Later after training with Whis both Son Goku and Vegeta master that state allowing them to use the full power of God as Base. That's showed in the Manga:

That is not even from DB super manga.

Now onto the Universe 6 Warriors Arc.

Chapter 13 proves that the God Ki is ON-OFF. First Goku fights at Base both Botamo and Frost. Later he uses SS to fight Frost final form. That's the first hint. He did not go Blue. If he used Gok Ki he should become SSGSS and not just a mere SS. When Vegeta fights Cabba he turns from regular SS to SSGSS, hinting that he switched to God Ki. But the definitive proof comes from Goku vs Hit in the new chapter. Goku becomes again the Red haired SSG!

So his Base can Change to Saiyan Beyond God if he want's or the other way around. To round things up: Goku Base(Normal Ki)-Super Saiyan-SSG-SSGSS or SBG(Godly Ki)-SSGSS. Hope this helps.

Goku has ALWAYS been sensed in base form. That confirms that he was NEVER using god ki in base form.

If anything, goku turning to red-haired god confirms the non-existence of SBG because goku never uses this hypothetical form.

yeah it is from the looks of things.

nope

Lmao SSG Goku>SSGSS Vegeta

It is SSG Goku > 10% SSGSS vegeta

http://u.cubeupload.com/DadeMurphy/DragonBallSuperManga.jpg

@apex_pretador: The fight with Trunks makes it seem like Goku needed to go ssj3 to clearly surpass Trunks.

Black

If his base was actually stronger than ssj2 Trunks he wouldn't of transformed he would of just powered up his ki in his base.

I never said so.

base goku < SS2 trunks is possible.

It seems to me Goku wasn't much stronger than his buu saga counterpart in his fight with Trunks.

Why so? Becuase you think trunks is not very strong? Trunks was called impressive by beerus, while no one except SS3 goku and raging vegeta was called impressive by beerus (and that includes ultimate gohan, SS gotenks, mr buu etc)

Trunks' growth was also called unbelievable & surprising by goku.

To me it seems like he can power up to his "saiyan beyond god form" like Gohan powered up to his ultimate form.

Proof?

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never give up

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@apex_pretador: Still lol. The Vegeta fans aren't getting a break. Vegeta will never surpass Goku, it's quite depressing.

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@ad-arts: Ki control you guys love making things up lol.

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alextheboss

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@apex_pretador:

I never said so.

base goku < SS2 trunks is possible.

I agree with this.

Why so? Becuase you think trunks is not very strong? Trunks was called impressive by beerus, while no one except SS3 goku and raging vegeta was called impressive by beerus (and that includes ultimate gohan, SS gotenks, mr buu etc)

Trunks' growth was also called unbelievable & surprising by goku.

It's just inconsistent writing.

Proof?

You're right, there is no real proof Goku has a "saiyan beyond god" form. It just fixes plot holes if he does. I agree in the manga he doesn't have that form because he never absorbed the powers of a god into himself. So the base form he used in the universe 6 tournament could of very well been the same base form that was weaker than Frieza.

However in the anime it is made clear he absorbed god powers and his base is now above his buu saga ssj3 level. It doesn't make sense form him and Vegeta to have trouble with Frost (who should be Cell-Buu level), Cabba (who shouldn't even be Namek Frieza level), and Trunks (who should be around buu level). All of those people I mentioned should be weaker than RoF Frieza and a suppressed Hit, both who Goku went toe to toe in base form.

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ad-arts

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@ad-arts: Ki control you guys love making things up lol.

let me quess, "joking" again?

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ad-arts

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#41  Edited By ad-arts

@alextheboss: If ssj2 is 2x ssj1, then at the lowest Goku was using 51% of his power.

So wait, let me get this right. You are saying, just because Goku goes SSJ, he is automatically stronger then his strongest power lvl using base form? It is then impossibile for Goku to lower his KI to basically none, while in SSJ form? Is that it? Because if that is what you are saying then you are wrong. Goku can lower his power lvl to basically none ( or DB lvl, no problem ) , while using SSJ.

So basically you base this entire argument on Goku's inability to lower his KI while in SSJ form, lower it enough for it to be small even compared to base form. - and this is untrue, because he can...

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JohnCena69swag

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@ad-arts: Ki control you guys love making things up lol.

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alextheboss

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@ad-arts: I know it's possible, it just doesn't make sense. Why would Goku use a form that takes up more energy and then suppress it to where it's weaker than a form it's easier for him to control?

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ad-arts

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#44  Edited By ad-arts

@alextheboss:

Why would Goku use a form that takes up more energy and then suppress it to where it's weaker than a form it's easier for him to control?

1. He does not need to supress it. Their normal stage is little energy, they have to power UP, not power down. You remember each time they powering up? Not the other way around. Just because Goku goes SSJ does not mean his is even close to max power.

2. Goku already knows how to use SSJ and not to waste energy. He spent a year learning that with Gohan, so they can stay SSJ at all times. Not like he has to care about energy anyway, its a sparing not a death battle

3. Maybe not to make Trunks look like a fool and destroy him in base form.

4. Simply because why not?

5. Or Trunks is almost as strong as Goku's SSJ. See, i am open minded. My whole point was there was many ways to look at it. We will never know for sure.

You already said my version is possibile, because it is. They control their Ki on a daily basis. So why argue for so long. All i wanted for you to keep an open mind.

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alextheboss

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@ad-arts:

1. He does not need to supress it. Their normal stage is little energy, they have to power UP, not power down. You remember each time they powering up? Not the other way around. Just because Goku goes SSJ does not mean his is even close to max power.

I don't think transformations work that way. Only after fully mastering a form can you fully suppressed it, like when Goku mastered ssj.

2. Goku already knows how to use SSJ and not to waste energy. He spent a year learning that with Gohan, so they can stay SSJ at all times. Not like he has to care about energy anyway, its a sparing not a death battle.

He was using ssj2. It was never stated he mastered ssj2.

3. Maybe not to make Trunks look like a fool and destroy him in base form.

Possibly, but unlikely. He could of just told Trunks he absorbed god power so he wouldn't feel bad.

5. Or Trunks is almost as strong as Goku's SSJ. See, i am open minded. My whole point was there was many ways to look at it. We will never know for sure.

You already said my version is possibile, because it is. They control their Ki on a daily basis. So why argue for so long. All i wanted for you to keep an open mind.

This would be another possibility, but it's still a plot hole because Goku's base could one shot ssj3 Gotenks.

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ad-arts

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#46  Edited By ad-arts

@alextheboss:

I don't think transformations work that way. Only after fully mastering a form can you fully suppressed it, like when Goku mastered ssj.

Yes but we infact talk about Goku after all... He can do it. Knowing him he would do it, not once did he spar on full power.

He was using ssj2. It was never stated he mastered ssj2

It does not mean he cannot control KI while SSJ2. And he probably did master it anyway...

Possibly, but unlikely. He could of just told Trunks he absorbed god power so he wouldn't feel bad.

Consider all Goku's batllest that were not for life or death. He always seemed to adjust his lvl to the opponent's, at the beginning.

Goku vs Krillin

Goku vs Tenshinhan ( second )

He could have one shotted them in an instant, he didn't. Goku does not go all out from the start, he doesnt even go near all out. Even Vegeta said it just now that Goku tend's to "fool around". If he fools around with an enemy, he will fool around even more with friend.

This would be another possibility, but it's still a plot hole because Goku's base could one shot ssj3 Gotenks.

I am looking at probability here. What is more probable.

1. Goku lowering his KI to match Trunks and gradually up it? Or...

2. Trunks being on Goku / Vegeta lvl for no apparent reason. Goku was way ahead of Trunks during Cell saga. They needed Buu - Trunks never fought Buu. They fought Beerus. They needed Frieza - no Frieza for Trunks. They needed years of training under Gods, training in "special places" to be where they are. Hell they fought other universe... Trunks was alone... Yes there was Kaio-shin. But we have seen what Kaioshin did with our guy... not that much. Yes there was black. But black was just about on Trunks lvl, powring up slowly. Otherwise Trunks would already be dead. That's no training. Not good enough to match Gods.. So yeah, no reason for Trunks to be anywhere near our guys...

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RehBeh

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@apex_pretador: You are right, it's not from DBS Manga but from the Special Chapter about the movie. Still, it counts since it's mentioned in the DBS Manga.

The SBG thing it's a transformation that doesn't make his base change in appearance, only in power.

No, he transforming to SSG makes sense, since if he had the power of a God as Base why would he transform into SSG gain? I mean he;s strong as Super Saiyan God but then becomes Super Saiyan God again? Or you're telling me that his base is weaker thanSSG?. (Which is another possible explanation actually)

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APEX_pretador

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@rehbeh said:

@apex_pretador: You are right, it's not from DBS Manga but from the Special Chapter about the movie. Still, it counts since it's mentioned in the DBS Manga.

It is not mentioned in super manga.

The SBG thing it's a transformation that doesn't make his base change in appearance, only in power.

It has never been mentioned in actual canon

No, he transforming to SSG makes sense, since if he had the power of a God as Base why would he transform into SSG gain? I mean he;s strong as Super Saiyan God but then becomes Super Saiyan God again? Or you're telling me that his base is weaker thanSSG?. (Which is another possible explanation actually)

Yes I am. And by quite a lot.

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RehBeh

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#49  Edited By RehBeh

@apex_pretador: Nice that makes sense. So where do you place Ressurection Freeza in terms of power? (Not Golden) But wasn't Goku stated to have the power of a God in Base?

Also in Super Manga they kinda say that Golden Freeza was defeated and both are made by Toyble so, there's that.

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#50  Edited By w0nd

simple answer, the show wrote themselves into an inconsistent wall and then fans scramble to fill in the blanks, and then pass this off as source material

Comics do the same thing

every time a new episode shows something a punch of posts come out trying to explain an inconsistency based on pure speculation or word of mouth

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