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    Dragon Ball Universe

    Concept » Dragon Ball Universe appears in 184 issues.

    The shared universe between some of the works of Akira Toriyama such as Dragonball, Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, Dr Slump, Neko Majin, and other one shot mangas.

    So does the 50X SSJ multiplier apply to speed as well?

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    Trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsofstoneover300metres

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    So I've been trying to figure out whether the multipliers for SSJ apply to Goku's speed because of the whole Goku supposedly being FTL. I came to wonder whether the multipliers apply to the speed as well; As far as I know, the original guide which contained the multipliers said "Strength" which us fans have taken to mean overall power, but due to inconsistencies in the series, I wonder whether speed has a new scale altogether. Pls lemme know.

    No Caption Provided

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    JohnCena69swag

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    #2  Edited By JohnCena69swag

    No. It doesn't apply to strength either. Or anything at all for that matter.

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    Thedarkpaladin

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    According to the flawless logic of certain DB fans, SSJ3 Goku is demonstrably MFTL+++. Didn't you know?

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    Gaoron

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    It was never stated but Kaioken multiplie all stats so logically SS forms should too.

    Oh... nevermind you are that troll with weird nick from earlier thread.

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    midnightdragon18

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    @thedarkpaladin: don't feed the troll man, i know you're smart enough to know all this guy wants is to start a flame war.

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    gokuss4z

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    Yes his speed increase all of his stats do how much there's no way to tell but super saiyan is 50x boost so it's most likely a 50x speed increase as well.

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    Trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsofstoneover300metres

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    @midnightdragon18: Well considering I was just looking for an actual answer, I'd say you were fairly mistaken. How am I trolling? Differing opinion = Troll Good luck carrying that "sound" use of logic throughout life.

    @gokuss4z Ok. Thanks, although I was looking more for an official statement by Toriyama, I appreciate it though.

    @thedarkpaladin Um.. didn't you know that kid goku is MTFL and omnipotent? He actually is the god of the toonforce and undefeatable.

    @gaoron Please tell me why I am a troll. The definition seems to be loose here.

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    alextheboss

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    #8  Edited By alextheboss

    Everything depends on the plot, but I would say it makes all stays go up by x50 if you want to go by the x50 multiplier.

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    zoldycklogic

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    @trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsof: YES! Well you can't deny that kaioken multiplies all stats.... base Goku kaioken x20 couldn't keep up with frieza's speed. super saiyan goku's speed was way above frieza's.

    I am sorry to tell you that these characters are really many folds faster than light from namek saga even if Toriyama is a plot lover and allows them sometimes to move at baby steps level for the viewers to know what's happening and allow the characters to talk ..i guess because he knows that his viewers are people between 6 and ...30 years old. Just focus on the high showings of feats and really just try to enjoy the show if you really love it.

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    LpnQ

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    buttersdaman000

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    #11  Edited By buttersdaman000

    No, the increase is not linear physically. The multipliers in DB have never exactly been clear, but's safe to say, if anything, it simply means Goku can output 50x more ki.

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    Trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsofstoneover300metres

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    @zoldycklogic: Well no... If they were FTL Frieza would be able to dodge solar flare, and he couldn't. End of discussion for me. RN I just want to know if SSJ is a 50x multiplier on speed, I'm guessing it's not though.

    @buttersdaman000 Now THAT makes a lot more sense to me, but it simply has to be a multiplier on speed as each time a Saiyan reaches a higher level of SSJ especially in the heat of battle the enemy they face is always stunned by their increased speed. And because Toriyama is an antisocial bastard we'll have to wait until someone brings it up in an interview XD.

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    Pandalumina

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    Stop

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    zoldycklogic

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    @trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsof: ok, so when did frieza ever dodge an attack done by the ones he considered insects?.... as usual he wanted to take the attack head on like he did with the others and he was surprised with its effect... and seriously if it was as effective as you make it to be why didn't krillin and goku use it continuously on frieza if he really wouldn't be able to dodge it the second time...... when cell used it, it was shown clearly how the z fighters where standing there shocked that he was about to use it and most importantly there was no other way for toriyama to let cell escape from the powerful piccolo after merging with kami. Why do you think this attack wasn't used often?

    And how did you come to the conclusion that the x50 multiplier doesn't apply to speed? i just proved it :/

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    lettsplay10

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    yes

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    jplaya2023

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    of course everything increases unless you think cell and frieza in Z are equal in speed which is stupid.

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    Amendment50

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    Those multipliers are completely bullshitted to begin with. Disregard em

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    Trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsofstoneover300metres

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    @zoldycklogic: Then why does Frieza dodge all THESE attacks?

    Loading Video...

    And I'm not arguing about the effectiveness of Solar Flare, I'm making the true statement that if a character was capable of moving FTL, then they would've dodged it.

    @panda_emperorix Stop what?

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    zoldycklogic

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    @trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsof: Don't you really see how he is playing with them? Plus he didn't really dodge any ki nlast... anw... Nothing good will come if we keep this up bcz none of us will be able to convince the other... i don't care tho i really respect that you pull out actual on screen showings to prove your point.

    Keep this up :)

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    Trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsofstoneover300metres

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    @zoldycklogic: Nice to see someone who can respect an opinion. Cheers mate.

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    NemesisReloaded

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    The Super Saiyan multiplier, I seem to remember reading, was originally planned to be 2x multiplier or even a 10x multiplier. I could be wrong but I think it was originally in one of the games that put the multiplier up at 50x to make it "official".

    I have never personally seen evidence that speed or strength multiply 50x along with Power Level after transforming into a Super Saiyan. Evidence does exist that strength multiplies by 25x at best (manga). I have no knowledge of even a range for speed multipliers, but from what I've been able to figure out with different speed feats, there's no reason to believe the speed multiplier is as high as 50x for Super Saiyan either.

    Saiyan Saga to Frieza Saga was Toriyama's original plan for Dragonball Z. In it he invented both Kaioken and Super Saiyan. Goku and King Kai specifically state on more than one occasion that kaioken directly multiplies all of his stats, but neither he, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks or Goten ever say anything even resembling that about Super Saiyan. This makes me think Super Saiyan multiplies different abilities differently. Otherwise, why make directly multiplying every stat the specific virtue of the Kaioken?

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    thedemonlord

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    Someone seriously needs to get ahold of Akira and force him to answer these kind of questions.

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    Trebuchetcanthrow90kilogramsofstoneover300metres

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    @thedemonlord: RIGHT?! But he's so antisocial, his people have to force him to do interviews, not to mention he doesn't speak English so even if you DO get a hold of him, unless you speak "desu" or have a translator, then all hope is lost.

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    Legendarysaiyan

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    I don't think speed and power in DBZ are very different (with a few exceptions like Trunks and Buff Perfect Cell), and ssj, ssj2, and ssj3 probably increase speed to the same degree. Case in point, SSJ goku was able to keep up with max power frieza, and if his speed was not multiplied Frieza would speed blitz.

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    zoldycklogic

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    @legendarysaiyan: I have been sayin this for days but for some reason i am being ignored :p

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    NemesisReloaded

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    @zoldycklogic: LOLBecause SS Goku couldn't keep up with 100% Frieza when Frieza was max power AND high stamina. He only kept up with and then overcame Frieza's speed when Frieza stamina was falling. Besides, even if Goku was keeping up with 100% Frieza when his stamina was good, at 50x power Goku should have always excelled him.

    20x Goku (using kaioken) was equal to 50% Frieza's speed. Assuming Frieza didn't lose any speed in his buff mode, and assuming Frieza's speed increases directly proportionally with his power (just an assumption for demonstration), 40x Goku should equal 100% Frieza, but you're saying 50x Goku equals Frieza's speed. That right there is proof that speed doesn't scale directly with power.

    This is their Power Levels:

    No Caption Provided

    If their speed scales with their power, and when Goku was Super Saiyan he was equal to Frieza's max in terms of speed, it'd maybe look something like this:

    No Caption Provided

    We also know from the short bout that when it came to speed, at 50% Frieza and Kaioken x20 they were equal and Frieza's power was VERY SLIGHTLY higher but near as damn it equal, which is why he pushed back the Kamehameha after a struggle:

    No Caption Provided

    But not both of these speed graphs can be true, otherwise this 2nd speed comparison (50% vs Kaioken x20) would mean the following would HAVE to be true:

    No Caption Provided

    But it isn't true, because at best SS Goku's speed was equal to Max Frieza's. It was only greater than Frieza's when Frieza's stamina was plummeting. Therefore, as least for Saiyans, speed doesn't simply scale with power. This all only works if Kaioken speed/power scaling is different to other increases like powering up, unleashing potential and transformations.

    In the following example Kaioken speed scales 1:1 with Power and Super Saiyan speed scales 3:4 with power:

    No Caption Provided

    Although I personally think Frieza's 100% is just his buff mode like Roshi and USS Vegeta and USS Trunks, so I dont think he'd scale his speed properly at 100%. So personally I think it'd be more like this, where Super Saiyan speed scales 3:5 against power and the Buff takes off 10% of what Frieza's speed would have been:

    No Caption Provided

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    alextheboss

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    @nemesisreloaded: Frieza never used 1% of his power you know that right? It was just a dub line.

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    ITouchedTheBoat

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    it's really just a title kind of thing. if multipliers were legit 10x Kaioken Super Saiyan would be more powerful than SSJ2

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    NemesisReloaded

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    @alextheboss: Yes. But for illustrative purposes, that's what 1% would look like, comparatively, since I'm also showing Goki without Kaioken. Whether he used it not doesn't matter. Thats still 1% of his power level in his final form.

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    alextheboss

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    it's really just a title kind of thing. if multipliers were legit 10x Kaioken Super Saiyan would be more powerful than SSJ2

    There is no kaikone x10 super saiyan. that would kill Goku.

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    alextheboss

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    @alextheboss: Yes. But for illustrative purposes, that's what 1% would look like, comparatively, since I'm also showing Goki without Kaioken. Whether he used it not doesn't matter. Thats still 1% of his power level in his final form.

    We don't really need to use those graphs when we know 3mil<60mil=60mil<120 mil<150 mil

    All those graphs do is go off the daizenshuu power levels.

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    ITouchedTheBoat

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    @alextheboss: just using it as an example as to why multipliers are nonsense.

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    alextheboss

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    @itouchedtheboat: true. I agree with that. ssj2 Gohan was even stated to be at half power, but he was still definitely stronger than he was at ssj1.

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    midnightdragon18

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    NemesisReloaded

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    @alextheboss: Yes the graphs are just a visual representation of the daizenshuu, but the point is the speed multiplying in line with the power levels (the other columns) and why it can't be true.

    Some people find these things easier to understand in a picture than in words, so I did both. As I say, the graphs use the daizenshuu along with what happens in the manga to prove speed can't scale alongside the Powerlevel as it grows and can only do with with the Kaioken.

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    zoldycklogic

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    @nemesisreloaded: Well from your point of view frieza was faster than goku while i see goku being faster ever since he started being serious since we know that he was holding back for the sake of the inhabitants on the planet.

    i guess we can just agree to disagree then.

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    alextheboss

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    @alextheboss: Yes the graphs are just a visual representation of the daizenshuu, but the point is the speed multiplying in line with the power levels (the other columns) and why it can't be true.

    Some people find these things easier to understand in a picture than in words, so I did both. As I say, the graphs use the daizenshuu along with what happens in the manga to prove speed can't scale alongside the Powerlevel as it grows and can only do with with the Kaioken.

    It's just Toriyama not giving a crap about power scaling. Logically ssj should make Goku 50x faster, but Toriyama doesn't care about being consistent.

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    NemesisReloaded

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    @nemesisreloaded: Well from your point of view frieza was faster than goku while i see goku being faster ever since he started being serious since we know that he was holding back for the sake of the inhabitants on the planet.

    i guess we can just agree to disagree then.

    But there weren't any inhabitants on the planet until King Kai decided to get Kami to get Mr Popo to ask the Dragon to wish them back. Until then, the only inhabitants were Goku and Frieza who were fighting , and Gohan, Piccolo and Bulma, who Goku knew was getting on a ship.

    @nemesisreloaded said:

    @alextheboss: Yes the graphs are just a visual representation of the daizenshuu, but the point is the speed multiplying in line with the power levels (the other columns) and why it can't be true.

    Some people find these things easier to understand in a picture than in words, so I did both. As I say, the graphs use the daizenshuu along with what happens in the manga to prove speed can't scale alongside the Powerlevel as it grows and can only do with with the Kaioken.

    It's just Toriyama not giving a crap about power scaling. Logically ssj should make Goku 50x faster, but Toriyama doesn't care about being consistent.

    Ok, why should SS logically make Goku 50x faster?

    When is that ever suggested? When they describe the benefits of Super Saiyan, they talk about "power". They dont talk about speed, or strength or any other attributes. They talk only about an increase in power. But with Kaioken they specifically talk about how it scales ALL aspects of a fight up by the same amount. Speed, strength, power, stamina, it all goes up. It's specifically stated. There is no reason to believe that speed and strength scale alongside power in anything other than the Kaioken, because it's the ONLY power-up technique specifically described to have those advantages.

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    zoldycklogic

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    @nemesisreloaded: yes i am sorry i was mistaken, but my point stands, even frieza mentioned that goku was not using all his powers waiting for them to leave the planet.

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    alextheboss

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    @nemesisreloaded:

    Ok, why should SS logically make Goku 50x faster?

    If it's a 50x multiplier it should, though technically it is never stated to be a 50x multiplier in the manga. Kaioken is confirmed to raise speed by 2, and it also raises the power level by 2. So chances are power level and speed are directly corralled with the character unless it's a form like ssj grade 2 or 3.

    It's not completely correlated because Burter has the same power level as Jeice and Recoome, but he is faster than them, and ssj 3 grade Trunks got stronger but not faster. But ssj doesn't have any type of speed determent and the power goes up by x50 so the speed should as well.

    Though like I said it doesn't matter. Their speed will alwlays depend on plot. Both buu saga Gohan and post potential unlocked Krillin are calced to be slower than saiyan saga Goku even though they are both stronger.

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    NemesisReloaded

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    #41  Edited By NemesisReloaded

    @zoldycklogic:?? Did he? I'll re-read.

    @alextheboss: Toriyama once said that he'd introduced power level reading to show how useless it was, both because characters can hide their power levels and because of situations like Burter, Jeice and Recoome where they all have pretty much the same power level but have totally different strengths and speeds. But just because Toriyama introduced these ideas doesn't mean we can't have a go at rationalising it with something like Race Ability, and it doesn't mean he doesn't take these things into account when thinking up a plot. I already showed in two other threads that if you go by Piccolo's 408 PL when he blows the moon (by mass), a character would have to have a PL of 11 Billion to be Solar System level (92x more than Frieza's PL on Namek) like how Super Cell says he is. Given all the power increases between Frieza on Namek and Super Cell, 92x higher could be about right - its the equivalent of doubling Frieza's PL just 6 or 7 times. This suggests that Toriyama still kept track, and in the Buu saga, he specifically compared Dabura to Cell to provide a comparison of everyone's power. I dont think assuming Toriyama just pulls these thins out of a hat all the time is necessarily a good assumption.

    And it seems I look at the Kaioken differently to you. When I hear the characters specifically state that the Kaioken doubles the users ability in all areas, power, strength, speed, stamina... that to me is the Kaioken being made a special case. Why bother mentioning that the Kaioken doubles ALL abilities if just powering up to double your power does that too?

    To me, this is like looking at 2 cars with 100bhp and they get taken to different shops for someone to pimp. One mechanic says he'll put in a 200bhp engine. The other says he'll put in a 200bhp engine, a new exhaust system and gear box with an sports gearing, stiffer suspension to corner better, larger disc breaks to decrease stopping distance, and larger wheels with low profile tyres. Now a salesman tries to sell one of these cars to you and says they are both twice as powerful, twice as fast, twice as agile and double the acceleration than they had before. Are you really going to believe they can both do those things?

    That's what's going on here. The Kaioken tells us it's going to increase the power, the speed, the stamina, the strength by the same amount. The Super Saiyan says it'll increase the power. The salesman is telling me they both increase power, speed, stamina and strength in the same way. I don't buy it. You put twice the size of the engine in the Super Saiyan and he'll get faster, but it wont be twice as fast. Nobody said they did any work on his gearing.

    ALL that said, I agree to at least an extent. Plot will trump all. It always does with fast characters. Even the Flash.

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    alextheboss

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    @nemesisreloaded: @nemesisreloaded:

    if you go by Piccolo's 408 PL when he blows the moon (by mass), a character would have to have a PL of 11 Billion to be Solar System level (92x more than Frieza's PL on Namek)

    I have no idea where you got this. Destroying the solar system would require quadrillions upon quadrillions of times more energy to destroy than the moon. Millions - billions of suns could fit in the empty space of our solar system. Unless you think Toriyama was implying the mass in the solar system (the sun is over 99% of the solar system's mass) in which case that would make sense and make Cell about sun+ level.

    And it seems I look at the Kaioken differently to you. When I hear the characters specifically state that the Kaioken doubles the users ability in all areas, power, strength, speed, stamina... that to me is the Kaioken being made a special case.

    Kaioken x10 Goku's speed was no match for 50% Frieza's speed, and 50% Frieza's speed was no match for ssj Goku's speed. Going by logic alone ssj Goku's speed has to be much higher than kaioken x20 Goku. So ssj absolutely made Goku quite a bit over 20x faster. 50x makes perfect sense. The only way it wouldn't is if kaioken doesn't actually make your speed go up literally.

    Why bother mentioning that the Kaioken doubles ALL abilities if just powering up to double your power does that too?

    So the reader completely understands.

    To me, this is like looking at 2 cars with 100bhp and they get taken to different shops for someone to pimp. One mechanic says he'll put in a 200bhp engine. The other says he'll put in a 200bhp engine, a new exhaust system and gear box with an sports gearing, stiffer suspension to corner better, larger disc breaks to decrease stopping distance, and larger wheels with low profile tyres. Now a salesman tries to sell one of these cars to you and says they are both twice as powerful, twice as fast, twice as agile and double the acceleration than they had before. Are you really going to believe they can both do those things?

    That's what's going on here. The Kaioken tells us it's going to increase the power, the speed, the stamina, the strength by the same amount. The Super Saiyan says it'll increase the power.

    Super saiyan has to make Goku much faster though.

    The salesman is telling me they both increase power, speed, stamina and strength in the same way. I don't buy it. You put twice the size of the engine in the Super Saiyan and he'll get faster, but it wont be twice as fast. Nobody said they did any work on his gearing.

    True but it is pretty clear ssj Goku is faster than kaioken x20 Goku. At the very least it would of had to make Goku 30x faster, which is already getting close to 50.

    ALL that said, I agree to at least an extent. Plot will trump all. It always does with fast characters. Even the Flash.

    There is no reason ssj shouldn't make the characters 50x faster though. At least for Goku on Namek. That would only be a little over twice the speed of kaioken x20 Goku.

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    NemesisReloaded

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    I have no idea where you got this. Destroying the solar system would require quadrillions upon quadrillions of times more energy to destroy than the moon. Millions - billions of suns could fit in the empty space of our solar system. Unless you think Toriyama was implying the mass in the solar system (the sun is over 99% of the solar system's mass) in which case that would make sense and make Cell about sun+ level.

    I DO think Toriyama was implying mass, thats what I was trying to say. It would take decillion upon decillion of times more energy to destroy the solar system than the moon. But a character of extremely low power level can vaporise the moon. Thats the show. And I am assuming when Cell says he could destroy the solar system, he means if it was more or less all in the same direction, but pretty much, if you have the power to wipe out the Sun in one hit like Piccolo did the Moon, you can take out the rest of the planets without issue.

    Kaioken x10 Goku's speed was no match for 50% Frieza's speed, and 50% Frieza's speed was no match for ssj Goku's speed. Going by logic alone ssj Goku's speed has to be much higher than kaioken x20 Goku. So ssj absolutely made Goku quite a bit over 20x faster. 50x makes perfect sense. The only way it wouldn't is if kaioken doesn't actually make your speed go up literally.

    In terms of speed alone:

    • Goku Kx10 was no match for 50% Frieza
    • Goku Kx20 was a match for 50% Frieza
    • 50% Frieza is no match for SS Goku
    • SS Goku was no match for 70% Frieza
    • SS Goku was no match for 100% Frieza Warming up
    • The fight becomes even
    • Then Frieza is no match for SS Goku - Frieza gets tired too quickly at full power.

    Those are the events of the fight in terms of speed.

    Now you COULD look at that and argue that SS Goku's speed was more than 50% Frieza/Kaioken x20 speed but less than 70% Frieza, probably putting Goku's speed at 60% Frieza/Kaioken x24. And how could anyone really say they were wrong since it meets the facts of the story? You might also look at Kaioken x24 and say that it's not fast enough to account for the difference in speed. Well, 24mph is not much faster than 20mph. But if Goku could, say, move at 50,000mph at base, that means that Kaioken x24 is 200,000mph faster than Kaioken x20, which is a hell of a lot faster.

    When does it become unreasonable to back the idea Goku's speed multiplies 50x along with power? When you have to assume he's still getting used to his form despite him never saying it or implying it because 70% Frieza is faster? When, based on that assumption, you assume Goku has only reached his peak at the end of the fight when he starts to pound Frieza into the ground, even though he later says Frieza gets tired too quickly for him to bother continuing? Or is it when you start to question the Kaioken speed multiplier because you dont think it adds up with the 50x SS multiplier.

    What's easier than all of those assumptions is to simply go by what the story tells us, which is that SS Goku is faster than 50% Frieza, but not faster than 100% Frieza, even though SS Goku is much more powerful than both, and that SS Goku exceeds Frieza when Frieza is too tired. That's what the story tells us, and it make perfect sense IF you accept that the Super Saiyan form doesn't scale speed along side power. Speed gets higher, but not at the same rate.

    So the reader completely understands.

    So why not apply that reasoning to what the story states about the Super Saiyan when the story only tells us about a power increase?

    True but it is pretty clear ssj Goku is faster than kaioken x20 Goku. At the very least it would of had to make Goku 30x faster, which is already getting close to 50.

    Well by that reasoning, if 30x faster is getting close to 50x faster, than 25x faster isn't far away either, both of which are much faster than 20x faster. If you turn these multipliers into actual speed values, even made up ones, SS Goku doesn't need to 2x or 2.5x faster than 50% Frieza to far exceed him in speed. He only needs to be 20-25% faster than Kaiokenx20 for 50% Frieza to not be able to keep up at all.

    There is no reason ssj shouldn't make the characters 50x faster though. At least for Goku on Namek. That would only be a little over twice the speed of kaioken x20 Goku.

    You say there's no reason SS shouldn't be 50x faster, but there is literally nothing in the story that suggests Super Saiyan SHOULD be 50x faster, moreover events as they happen imply that Super Saiyan cannot be 50x faster unless a series of untold fan-theoretical things occur.

    If the Super Saiyan form adds speed at a ratio of 1:2 to Goku's power, or 25:50, it meets all the events and statements of the story and doesn't assume anything.

    I come at this, by the way, as someone who has always just assumed that the 50x SS multiplier applied to everything. It's only when I started looking into the feats of Dragonball far more closely that I realised I never had any reason to believe that at all.

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    alextheboss

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    @nemesisreloaded:

    I DO think Toriyama was implying mass, thats what I was trying to say. It would take decillion upon decillion of times more energy to destroy the solar system than the moon. But a character of extremely low power level can vaporise the moon. Thats the show. And I am assuming when Cell says he could destroy the solar system, he means if it was more or less all in the same direction, but pretty much, if you have the power to wipe out the Sun in one hit like Piccolo did the Moon, you can take out the rest of the planets without issue.

    I agree with this.

    In terms of speed alone:

    • Goku Kx10 was no match for 50% Frieza
    • Goku Kx20 was a match for 50% Frieza
    • 50% Frieza is no match for SS Goku
    • SS Goku was no match for 70% Frieza
    • SS Goku was no match for 100% Frieza Warming up
    • The fight becomes even
    • Then Frieza is no match for SS Goku - Frieza gets tired too quickly at full power.

    70% Frieza never out did ssj Goku in terms of speed. All he did was knock him back with TK.

    100% Frieza did blitz ssj Goku, but Goku wasn't impressed and was just testing how strong Frieza was. I could see 100% Frieza being faster than ssj Goku (I don't think he is though) but I don't see 70% Frieza being faster.

    Now you COULD look at that and argue that SS Goku's speed was more than 50% Frieza/Kaioken x20 speed but less than 70% Frieza, probably putting Goku's speed at 60% Frieza/Kaioken x24. And how could anyone really say they were wrong since it meets the facts of the story? You might also look at Kaioken x24 and say that it's not fast enough to account for the difference in speed. Well, 24mph is not much faster than 20mph. But if Goku could, say, move at 50,000mph at base, that means that Kaioken x24 is 200,000mph faster than Kaioken x20, which is a hell of a lot faster.

    When does it become unreasonable to back the idea Goku's speed multiplies 50x along with power? When you have to assume he's still getting used to his form despite him never saying it or implying it because 70% Frieza is faster? When, based on that assumption, you assume Goku has only reached his peak at the end of the fight when he starts to pound Frieza into the ground, even though he later says Frieza gets tired too quickly for him to bother continuing? Or is it when you start to question the Kaioken speed multiplier because you dont think it adds up with the 50x SS multiplier.

    Where are you getting 70% Frieza is faster than ssj Goku?

    And I don't think Goku was holding back his power while fighting 100% Frieza, he was just not fighting like he was bloodlusted while Frieza pretty much was.

    What's easier than all of those assumptions is to simply go by what the story tells us, which is that SS Goku is faster than 50% Frieza, but not faster than 100% Frieza, even though SS Goku is much more powerful than both, and that SS Goku exceeds Frieza when Frieza is too tired. That's what the story tells us, and it make perfect sense IF you accept that the Super Saiyan form doesn't scale speed along side power. Speed gets higher, but not at the same rate.

    They story doesn't tell us this. In the anime ssj Goku even out speeds 100% Frieza while going to Parunga, but that doesn't happen in the manga. In the manga it doesn't make it clear who is faster.

    So why not apply that reasoning to what the story states about the Super Saiyan when the story only tells us about a power increase?

    Because ssj isn't a technique that can be explained. King Kai was explaining how kaioken worked because it was his technique and it was so the readers would understand the move. Ssj is pretty much just a huge power up and there is nobody that knows anything about it.

    Well by that reasoning, if 30x faster is getting close to 50x faster, than 25x faster isn't far away either, both of which are much faster than 20x faster. If you turn these multipliers into actual speed values, even made up ones, SS Goku doesn't need to 2x or 2.5x faster than 50% Frieza to far exceed him in speed. He only needs to be 20-25% faster than Kaiokenx20 for 50% Frieza to not be able to keep up at all.

    Nah a 20% speed gap isn't that huge. 50% Frieza would of kept with that. Ssj Goku wasn't even trying when fighting 50% Frieza and Frieza was extremely surprised how Goku dodged his death beam. This implies ssj Goku's speed is far more than anything we've seen so far.

    No Caption Provided

    You say there's no reason SS shouldn't be 50x faster, but there is literally nothing in the story that suggests Super Saiyan SHOULD be 50x faster, moreover events as they happen imply that Super Saiyan cannot be 50x faster unless a series of untold fan-theoretical things occur.

    Examples?

    If the Super Saiyan form adds speed at a ratio of 1:2 to Goku's power, or 25:50, it meets all the events and statements of the story and doesn't assume anything.

    I come at this, by the way, as someone who has always just assumed that the 50x SS multiplier applied to everything. It's only when I started looking into the feats of Dragonball far more closely that I realised I never had any reason to believe that at all.

    It also seems like ssj doesn't increase lifting strength by 50 either. If it doesn't increase speed or strength by 50 then what does it increase by 50? lol.

    Though with strength I think it's because muscles can only be strengthened so far.

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    NemesisReloaded

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    @alextheboss:

    70% Frieza never out did ssj Goku in terms of speed. All he did was knock him back with TK.

    You're right, my bad.

    100% Frieza did blitz ssj Goku, but Goku wasn't impressed and was just testing how strong Frieza was. I could see 100% Frieza being faster than ssj Goku (I don't think he is though) but I don't see 70% Frieza being faster.

    This time Frieza is faster than Goku. Goku does catch him because he anticipates where Frieza will punch, but Frieza does out-speed him. Personally, I think that Goku is stronger and more powerful than Frieza and thats why his hits dont do too much damage and ki blasts dont stand a chance against Goku. Thats why he mocks Frieza. Has nothing to do with his speed though.

    Where are you getting 70% Frieza is faster than ssj Goku?

    Dunno any more, I think I just remembered a couple of pages in the wrong order.

    And I don't think Goku was holding back his power while fighting 100% Frieza, he was just not fighting like he was bloodlusted while Frieza pretty much was.

    He wasn't bloodlusted to an uncontrollable degree, no, not like in a berserker rage. But he was furious and wanted to kill Frieza. He said it several times and when Frieza referenced Krillin Goku nearly lost it for good. Goku had a huge amount of anger boiling away, but he had enough control on it to not be rash. I semi-agree with this.

    They story doesn't tell us this. In the anime ssj Goku even out speeds 100% Frieza while going to Parunga, but that doesn't happen in the manga. In the manga it doesn't make it clear who is faster.

    Normally I would love to use the anime, I prefer it, but I've been using the manga all this time so I'm sticking with it. Frieza gets there first

    No Caption Provided

    Because ssj isn't a technique that can be explained. King Kai was explaining how kaioken worked because it was his technique and it was so the readers would understand the move. Ssj is pretty much just a huge power up and there is nobody that knows anything about it.

    They do explain it on more than one occasion. But that's my point, when they explain SS they only talk about power. Which is why that is exactly how I feel about Super Saiyan. It's just a huge power up. But that doesn't mean it scales all abilities along with the power. There's no reason why speed should scale with it when strength doesn't.

    Nah a 20% speed gap isn't that huge. 50% Frieza would of kept with that. Ssj Goku wasn't even trying when fighting 50% Frieza and Frieza was extremely surprised how Goku dodged his death beam. This implies ssj Goku's speed is far more than anything we've seen so far.

    I think when I did the graphs I scaled SS Goku's speed to power ration at 3:5, so 30x faster while power was 50x greater. And I would agree that SS Goku's speed is greater than anything Goku has done so far at the point of this page with Frieza firing the beam. I dont doubt or imply for a minute that it's not more than Kaioken x20 Gokus speed. But, we dont dont know for sure that Goku Kx20 couldn't have dodged the beam either because it wasn't around long enough for Frieza to do anything like that.

    Me: You say there's no reason SS shouldn't be 50x faster, but there is literally nothing in the story that suggests Super Saiyan SHOULD be 50x faster, moreover events as they happen imply that Super Saiyan cannot be 50x faster unless a series of untold fan-theoretical things occur.

    You: Examples?

    I'm talking about the events as they happen in the story, which I dont think we're going to come to a conclusion on LOL

    It also seems like ssj doesn't increase lifting strength by 50 either. If it doesn't increase speed or strength by 50 then what does it increase by 50? lol.

    Though with strength I think it's because muscles can only be strengthened so far.

    I tend to see strength as needing to be trained with Ki the same as flying and speed to improve them - in the anime. In the manga, I think you're right, when it comes to Super the manga suggests a real muscular limit. The anime doesn't, but the anime also suggests that strength and weight training is the main line of training in Super - training to use Ki to move heavy objects I mean, or to move more naturally while under the strain of heavy objects.

    Honestly? I think that their power, their Ki, can be applied to various types of movement or technique, but when the Super Saiyan increases the power by 50x, it increases Goku's ability to project Ki attacks by 50x, and increase his Ki defence by 50x. But when it comes to speed and strength they both go up, but not by 50x. As well as this, Stamina goes down. A Saiyan will become tired more quickly fighting in Super Saiyan form in a tight fight than they would in base form in a similarly tight fight. This is why Goku and Gohan trained in the HTC to become naturalised as Super Saiyans so it didn't put a drain on their stamina. Again, like slapping the bigger engine in the car, more power, less fuel efficiency.

    I see Super Saiyan as a massive 50x power boost, for Ki attacks and defences only. To me, the evidence suggests this to be the case, as it doesn't seem to show Goku's speed, strength or stamina increasing by this margin.

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    alextheboss

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    @nemesisreloaded:

    This time Frieza is faster than Goku. Goku does catch him because he anticipates where Frieza will punch, but Frieza does out-speed him. Personally, I think that Goku is stronger and more powerful than Frieza and thats why his hits dont do too much damage and ki blasts dont stand a chance against Goku. Thats why he mocks Frieza. Has nothing to do with his speed though.

    Possibly.

    He wasn't bloodlusted to an uncontrollable degree, no, not like in a berserker rage. But he was furious and wanted to kill Frieza. He said it several times and when Frieza referenced Krillin Goku nearly lost it for good. Goku had a huge amount of anger boiling away, but he had enough control on it to not be rash. I semi-agree with this.

    Goku just wanted to humiliate Frieza. He even spared Frieza. Not only did he not kill him he even gave him energy, lol.

    Normally I would love to use the anime, I prefer it, but I've been using the manga all this time so I'm sticking with it. Frieza gets there first

    Yes, but he also left first.

    They do explain it on more than one occasion. But that's my point, when they explain SS they only talk about power. Which is why that is exactly how I feel about Super Saiyan. It's just a huge power up. But that doesn't mean it scales all abilities along with the power. There's no reason why speed should scale with it when strength doesn't.

    Maybe. I would agree Goku's running speed wouldn't get 50x faster because that comes from muscles, but flight speed comes from ki, so if his ki gets 50x stronger, it would make sense for his flight speed to get 50x faster, or at least around that much.

    I think when I did the graphs I scaled SS Goku's speed to power ration at 3:5, so 30x faster while power was 50x greater. And I would agree that SS Goku's speed is greater than anything Goku has done so far at the point of this page with Frieza firing the beam. I dont doubt or imply for a minute that it's not more than Kaioken x20 Gokus speed. But, we dont dont know for sure that Goku Kx20 couldn't have dodged the beam either because it wasn't around long enough for Frieza to do anything like that.

    True.

    I'm talking about the events as they happen in the story, which I dont think we're going to come to a conclusion on LOL

    But what event implies ssj can't be 50x faster?

    I see Super Saiyan as a massive 50x power boost, for Ki attacks and defences only. To me, the evidence suggests this to be the case, as it doesn't seem to show Goku's speed, strength or stamina increasing by this margin.

    True. Your theory makes sense. I definitely wouldn't say it's confirmed ssj increases speed by x50.

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    NemesisReloaded

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    @alextheboss:

    Goku just wanted to humiliate Frieza. He even spared Frieza. Not only did he not kill him he even gave him energy, lol.

    He didn't JUST want to humiliate Frieza. And he gives up fighting Frieza because he's too weak to continue and he doesn't think it's fair. The jibe about Frieza being beaten by a monkey is a just a jibe. Before and during the fight, Goku wants to kill Frieza to get revenge for Krillin. He says it twice.

    Yes, but he also left first.

    Yes, but its a still picture. Like all the rest unless it tells you or gives a clue, you'll never know how fast each movement was or how much time passes between them.

    Maybe. I would agree Goku's running speed wouldn't get 50x faster because that comes from muscles, but flight speed comes from ki, so if his ki gets 50x stronger, it would make sense for his flight speed to get 50x faster, or at least around that much.

    Interesting...

    Would muscle based movements include striking speeds for you, or just running? I wonder if that would work out.

    I think when I did the graphs I scaled SS Goku's speed to power ration at 3:5, so 30x faster while power was 50x greater. And I would agree that SS Goku's speed is greater than anything Goku has done so far at the point of this page with Frieza firing the beam. I dont doubt or imply for a minute that it's not more than Kaioken x20 Gokus speed. But, we dont dont know for sure that Goku Kx20 couldn't have dodged the beam either because it wasn't around long enough for Frieza to do anything like that.

    True.

    But what event implies ssj can't be 50x faster?

    The fact there is a time after Frieza goes 100% when Friezas movements are fast enough Goku gets consistently hit. It doesn't last long, but then neither does his stamina. The fight evens up and then it goes Gokus way and then Goku says Frieza's getting tired too quickly to keep the fight going. You dont see the events of this fight the same way I do. To me that fight shows Frieza is faster (not necessarily stronger and definitely not more powerful) he gets tired and then becomes Goku's play thing.

    True. Your theory makes sense. I definitely wouldn't say it's confirmed ssj increases speed by x50.

    Cool. I wonder about that flying speed being different too. It makes sense that flying speed would be faster because its all Ki based.

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    alextheboss

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    @nemesisreloaded:

    He didn't JUST want to humiliate Frieza. And he gives up fighting Frieza because he's too weak to continue and he doesn't think it's fair. The jibe about Frieza being beaten by a monkey is a just a jibe. Before and during the fight, Goku wants to kill Frieza to get revenge for Krillin. He says it twice.

    Ya but when he stopped he said Frieza was already more humiliated. He stopped because he wasn't having fun fighting anymore. Goku probably just let Frieza live so Frieza could fight him again, lol.

    Interesting...

    Would muscle based movements include striking speeds for you, or just running? I wonder if that would work out.

    It's a mix of both, though I would say it's more muscle strength. That would make sense why characters stopped punching and ripping their arms off so often. Everyone got near the physical limit, so even much stronger opponents ki wise weren't that much stronger physically.

    The fact there is a time after Frieza goes 100% when Friezas movements are fast enough Goku gets consistently hit. It doesn't last long, but then neither does his stamina. The fight evens up and then it goes Gokus way and then Goku says Frieza's getting tired too quickly to keep the fight going. You dont see the events of this fight the same way I do. To me that fight shows Frieza is faster (not necessarily stronger and definitely not more powerful) he gets tired and then becomes Goku's play thing.

    I attribute this to Frieza burning all his ki away quickly. Frieza went all out and that's what made him tired so quick.

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    Mahfire

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    You can see several characters going from "damn he's fast" to "get blitzed fodder" so yes. For example SSJ2 Gohan blitzing all the Cell Juniors while Goku in SSJ who was comparable to SSJ Gohan could barely fight them off

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