I'm gonna say Jiren for right this second just because he's been said to be the mortal stronger than all the gods of destruction, was clearly above toppo as a god of destruction. took on both ssbe vegeta and ssb king kai fist goku at the same time. Wasn't bested by anyone single handedly until goku achieved what none of the gods of destruction had done before (UI)

That's it for now

@thegreatlordd: that is fair, and I didn't mean to imply he could take them all on at once, I definitely don't think he could pull that off

Gogeta in this iteration stomps.

It's the sum of Base Goku and Vegeta, multiplied by trillions of times.

@drpepperman: what seriously? trillions? i would say max thousands

@drpepperman: @thegreatlordd: @gokublack123760:

What Gogeta are you guys talking about that gets a boost like that? 1000X? Where did that come from?

It’s too hard to say what a canon Gogeta would look like. And in the non canon, all he’s done is one shot Janemba (who was still able to be damaged by Super Saiyan 3 Goku...) as a Super Saiyan and dominate Omega Shenron as a Super Saiyan 4. Giving Gogeta other forms like Super Saiyan Blue Evolved doesn’t make this any easier, because we still haven’t been given the exact multipliers for a God and Blue much less the new form beyond Blue. Dance fusion as well doesn’t exactly have well known benefits because of all of the ambiguity over the Gotenks increase and whether that would be the exact same for Goku and Vegeta or not.

On the flip side, Jiren is a MUCH more proven character. He dominated Goku even after Goku entered Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20 and used a Spirit Bomb containing Team U7’s energy. With only a flare of his aura, he stopped UI Omen Goku in his tracks and then dominated Goku after he lost the form. Even Hit’s time abilities were broken by Jiren without him really showing much power. The very force in the air from Jiren’s punch was enough to blow Maji Kayo out of the arena, who had previously managed to subdue both Super Saiyan Goku and Dyspo on different occasions. Jiren also effortlessly blasted away an attack from Anilaza, the same guy that was overwhelming Super Saiyan Blue Goku, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta, Golden Frieza, 17, and Ultimate Gohan in a beam struggle before 17 broke his energy reactor. Even powered up to his fullest, Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta could not damage Jiren with a charged Final Flash though did notably move him. Then Jiren went toe to toe with Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20 Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Evolved Vegeta for a few episodes until Vegeta left to get a boost and beat GoD Toppo. Even with that same level of strength that defeated Toppo, Jiren remarks how useless it is against him. Just by displaying a ton of his power, he was constantly beating Goku, Vegeta, and 17 at their best. One mean looking punch and a simple glare took out Golden Frieza in Episode 127. Even by the end of the road, Jiren demonstrated the power to fight UI Omen Goku and Mastered UI Goku.

By the fact that we can actually gauge what Jiren is capable of, I have to stick with him.

@cromulor: Gogeta created a universe behind him, while mui goku created a galaxy. Jiren shoke infinity. Janemba warped entire db verse. So that ssj3 goku from fusion reborn i definitly stronger than his DBS Counter who logically should.be stronger than his DBZ counterpart.

@thegreatlordd: watch fusion reborn the scene when dey transform into gogeta look at the background

@thegreatlordd: there is a short clips on youtube of them transforming ibto gogeta.

@shenron007: @thegreatlordd: https://youtu.be/4f7Mr1sye7A

The clip in question for Gogeta. ^

https://youtu.be/NyH_nqQkf0A

The clip in question for MUI Goku. ^

https://youtu.be/l1iqKUZfDsk

The clip in question for Jiren. ^

@thegreatlordd: this scenes are all similar to when kid gt goku was stated to have enuff ki to light up an entire galaxy.

@thegreatlordd: tag Shenron, I just got the clips for him. I’m not making those arguments.

@cromulor: nice one xd

@thegreatlordd: you like being spoon fed?

@shenron007: Link the GT scene. You can't just say something happened and not provide the evidence. If you're so confident in what you're talking about then provide the proof.

@mainjp: oii look who just woke up ^.

wonder if @TDP appears too, soon, put possibly if i mention something about saint seiya xd.

For the love of all that is good.

@thegreatlordd: Well... I'll just link it since Shenron has proven to be unreliable once again.

I don't think MUI is greater than Goku and Vegeta combined in their strongest forms and then their combined power multiplied by "tens of times" or however many numbers Fusion Dance gets. Especially since Jiren was struggling with Goku and Vegeta together at full power prior to his power up against MUI.

Especially when you factor in that this theoretical Gogeta could use Vegeta's SSJB2 combined with Goku's Kaio-Ken X20, which would be significantly stronger than the two forms separate.

Granted that statement is about Potara which is vaguely superior to the Fusion Dance, but we don't really know in what way or to what extent it is.

@mainjp: how am i unreliable that raccoon said "he is got enuff power in that litle body to light up an entire galaxy.

@shenron007: You never back up your claims you crooked-nosed knave.

@mainjp: oi that is not nice -_-

Jiren curbstomps so hard, doesnt need to even use his hidden power he had against mastered UI

@littleflamingo: wrong, wrong, wrong.

@thegreatlordd:

True, but he had to put in effort into holding up his ki shield for it. He wasn't able to effortlessly trash Goku and Vegeta, who were putting up a solid fight the entire time. Even so, Jiren could have likely ended them way sooner if not for 17 and Frieza's interference and his own showboating.

I cut out a bit of theoretical math from my post, but if Goku and Vegeta are 10s in their best forms I'd peg Jiren as a 25. Stronger than both combined by a decent margin, but not so much stronger than he can take them both without effort.

@thegreatlordd: gif makes it look as if Jiren destroyed a galaxy lol.

@thegreatlordd:

Agreed. Jiren definitely got stronger later, which I did take under consideration.

MUI is hard to place, but I don't think it's over twice as strong as normal full powered Jiren. That's all he'd really need to do what he did. You could probably argue four or five times more too and still be reasonable.

But if Vegeta and Goku are 10s then their fusion is 10+10=20X20 (minimum needed to be called "tens of times") which equals about 400. That is 40 times stronger than either individually as a minimum.

I just don't think MUI Goku is 20-40 times stronger than SSJBKKX20. He could be, but it's hard to tell. And that's not factoring in the theoretical SSJB2KKX20 transformation.

Normally I don't like using math in Dragonball debates, but this version of Gogeta is entirely speculative and there's really no way of knowing for sure how strong he'd be.

The real answer is probably "Whoever the plot needs to be stronger at that given time to serve the story's purpose."

I guess it comes down to if you feel MUI is more valuable than the sum total of all of Vegeta's power, skill, knowledge, and other contributions and then the end result being magnified by an unspecified amount.

Blue Evolution Gogeta >> MUI > Jiren

Jiren.

Jiren with mid-effort

Gogeta blows fairy dust in his face.